The Last Dance

[WVRed]

Anybody else been watching it?

I know we have the NBA thread but thought this deserved it’s own thread. I was too young to really remember Jordan and the Bulls (never really understood why they broke up or who Jerry Krause was in the 90s) but each episode just gets better and better.

Episodes 9 and 10 are next Sunday.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Anybody else been watching it?

I know we have the NBA thread but thought this deserved it’s own thread. I was too young to really remember Jordan and the Bulls (never really understood why they broke up or who Jerry Krause was in the 90s) but each episode just gets better and better.

Episodes 9 and 10 are next Sunday.

As a Utah Jazz fan, for me, the Season Finale was last night.

[adkindo]

the best part from last night was Jordan being able to use "Good game Mike" as fuel to destroy the rookie who said it the next night....poor kid, not sure what he was supposed to say :laugh:

also, at the very end, I was shocked that I had totally forgot that Chris Mullin was on some of those very good Pacer teams in the late 90's. I do recall, but without that visual, I would have claimed he played his entire career with GSW.

[redsfanmia]

I’ve enjoyed watching it but I honestly feel it’s over hyped.

[KronoRed]

This sounded interesting, but 10 parts? no thanks.

[Reds Freak]

I've found it to be fascinating story-telling. Like almost every 90s kid, I loved MJ and the Bulls but didn't follow it closely enough to know all these back stories. It's been really fun to learn about these other great teams and rivalries and to see the old arenas.

[Revering4Blue]

Too one-sided against Krause, who is not around to defend himself, while granting Reinsdorf an undeserved free pass.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

[Chip R]

I’ve enjoyed watching it but I honestly feel it’s over hyped.

Perhaps but it's an oasis in this desert of no sports. Of course it's going to be overhyped because there's no other live sports available except for Korean baseball. It gives people around my age and older some nostalgia. It also gives young people a chance to see Jordan in his prime.

[adkindo]

This sounded interesting, but 10 parts? no thanks.

I honestly would take 20 if they had enough content

[Redsfaithful]

I honestly would take 20 if they had enough content

Same

[Bob Sheed]

I just finished part II last night.

With all the Jordan highlight reels, it's easy to forget that he did those crazy hang in the air acrobatics pretty much every night.

Jump up in the air, stay there for like 5 seconds, turn your back to the rim, get fouled, then underhand a no-look right into the basket. He really was something else.

[RiverRat13]

I just finished part II last night.

With all the Jordan highlight reels, it's easy to forget that he did those crazy hang in the air acrobatics pretty much every night.

Jump up in the air, stay there for like 5 seconds, turn your back to the rim, get fouled, then underhand a no-look right into the basket. He really was something else.

I think a lot people remember the '96-'98 Jordan where his game was more reliant on his fade-away jumper and forget just how explosive he was in his younger years.

[Redsfaithful]

Same

Expanding on this a little, I can see how 10 hours of a 90s Bulls documentary could seem like too much, but it's seriously well done and compelling and it goes by very quickly at an hour or two at a time.

[MWM]

Expanding on this a little, I can see how 10 hours of a 90s Bulls documentary could seem like too much, but it's seriously well done and compelling and it goes by very quickly at an hour or two at a time.

I've said to my friends multiple times that I wish this thing was a 20 part series. It's been fantastic. I was a junior in high school when they won their first championship, so I watched pretty much any time Jordan was on from the late 80s until he retired.

For me, the pinnacle of watching sports in my lifetime was Jordan in the 90s. The next closest thing would be Tiger in his prime, and then Federer from 2004-07. But even those pale in comparison to watching MJ in his prime. This has been a very well-done series, but for me the nostalgia is what makes me so immersed. I think I could watch 20 hours of just highlights of Jordan in his career.

I also like seeing the human side of MJ. He was so polished in his playing days that we didn't get to see a lot of what we're seeing now. I love hearing him say things like "to be honest, I was a little bitter they gave Charles the MVP that season and not me". I loved seeing him laugh at the idea that Gary Payton slowed him down. This definitely seems more like the real guy than the finely crafted brand we saw back then.

[RichRed]

I think a lot people remember the '96-'98 Jordan where his game was more reliant on his fade-away jumper and forget just how explosive he was in his younger years.

It's like he defied the laws of physics. He would jump and then seemingly decide in mid-air if he needed to go higher. I could watch Jordan highlights for hours.

[RichRed]

I've said to my friends multiple times that I wish this thing was a 20 part series. It's been fantastic. I was a junior in high school when they won their first championship, so I watched pretty much any time Jordan was on from the late 80s until he retired.

For me, the pinnacle of watching sports in my lifetime was Jordan in the 90s. The next closest thing would be Tiger in his prime, and then Federer from 2004-07. But even those pale in comparison to watching MJ in his prime. This has been a very well-done series, but for me the nostalgia is what makes me so immersed. I think I could watch 20 hours of just highlights of Jordan in his career.

I also like seeing the human side of MJ. He was so polished in his playing days that we didn't get to see a lot of what we're seeing now. I love hearing him say things like "to be honest, I was a little bitter they gave Charles the MVP that season and not me". I loved seeing him laugh at the idea that Gary Payton slowed him down. This definitely seems more like the real guy than the finely crafted brand we saw back then.

I feel the same way. I could watch 100 hours of this stuff. I was 22 when they won their first championship, and even though I was never a Bulls fan (Bullets/Wizards, God help me), I watched Jordan every chance I could get. In my lifetime, there's never been another athlete on a team I wasn't a fan of that was such a must-watch every time. I guess Bo Jackson comes the closest.

[adkindo]

It's like he defied the laws of physics. He would jump and then seemingly decide in mid-air if he needed to go higher. I could watch Jordan highlights for hours.

when someone says "Jordan", the first image that I always think of is him going up with the right, and changing to the left in the air against the Lakers in his first Finals....that was the moment I finally accepted it was over....Showtime was basically over....it was Jordan's league now.

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/mjswitch.gif

[M2]

It's ultimately a sad story, at least to me. MJ went from being a superhuman joy to watch to the king of an increasingly dreary brand of basketball (his final contest with the Bulls was an 87-86 game). He started as a kid who wanted to be great and ended as a guy who was a mix of miserable and greedy. He played long enough to become the villain.

[redsfandan]

I've said to my friends multiple times that I wish this thing was a 20 part series. It's been fantastic. I was a junior in high school when they won their first championship, so I watched pretty much any time Jordan was on from the late 80s until he retired.

For me, the pinnacle of watching sports in my lifetime was Jordan in the 90s. The next closest thing would be Tiger in his prime, and then Federer from 2004-07. But even those pale in comparison to watching MJ in his prime. This has been a very well-done series, but for me the nostalgia is what makes me so immersed. I think I could watch 20 hours of just highlights of Jordan in his career.

I also like seeing the human side of MJ. He was so polished in his playing days that we didn't get to see a lot of what we're seeing now. I love hearing him say things like "to be honest, I was a little bitter they gave Charles the MVP that season and not me". I loved seeing him laugh at the idea that Gary Payton slowed him down. This definitely seems more like the real guy than the finely crafted brand we saw back then.

For me, Jordans games were definitely up there but the Bird-Magic games were the best in basketball.

[Todd Gack]

It's ultimately a sad story, at least to me. MJ went from being a superhuman joy to watch to the king of an increasingly dreary brand of basketball (his final contest with the Bulls was an 87-86 game). He started as a kid who wanted to be great and ended as a guy who was a mix of miserable and greedy. He played long enough to become the villain.

I guess it depends on your perspective. I prefer good defense instead of no defense in today's game. And greedy? Not sure, but he deserves every penny he earned. Fortunately or unforunately, that's what made him a great basketball player, a great ambassador for the game, and how he became so successful in life.

[KoryMac5]

It's ultimately a sad story, at least to me. MJ went from being a superhuman joy to watch to the king of an increasingly dreary brand of basketball (his final contest with the Bulls was an 87-86 game). He started as a kid who wanted to be great and ended as a guy who was a mix of miserable and greedy. He played long enough to become the villain.

The failure of his comeback and his failure as a team owner have to be taken into account when discussing his overall legacy.

[M2]

I guess it depends on your perspective. I prefer good defense instead of no defense in today's game. And greedy? Not sure, but he deserves every penny he earned. Fortunately or unforunately, that's what made him a great basketball player, a great ambassador for the game, and how he became so successful in life.

They play a ton of defense in today's game, but it's impossible to stop it when the other team can score from all over the court. We're back to ball movement, higher scoring games and skill dominating the league (like in the 80s when Jordan was electric) as opposed to the iso-heavy, low scoring, de facto wrestling match that the Jordan era bestowed upon us. He was great, but the game was dreary. That happened. It's right there in the game scores. Just watch episode two of this doc series for a comparison point for how far the game fell from that Celtics-Bulls playoff series in 1986. That was fire. The Bulls-Jazz matchups 11 and 12 years later is just brutally ugly basketball.

As for the greedy part, I don't begrudge him (or any player in any sport) the money he's made. Yet he seems to care about little else. He's rich and miserable. Compare him to Shaq, who also makes insane amounts of money. Shaq seems to have general passion for life that's absent in Jordan.

[Hillsdale87]

I guess it depends on your perspective. I prefer good defense instead of no defense in today's game. And greedy? Not sure, but he deserves every penny he earned. Fortunately or unforunately, that's what made him a great basketball player, a great ambassador for the game, and how he became so successful in life.

It is so much harder to play defense in today's game because offenses are so much better. Players are more athletic, every player on the floor can shoot from the outside, and teams have to defend out to 30 feet from the hoop. Watching the clips in some of these games, it's hilarious to see how bad the spacing was. They often had 10 players within 18 feet of the hoops. The reason guys got killed going into the lane is that there were often 2-3 defenders in there. If a team clogged the lane with defenders now, they'd get run out of the gym with 3s.

The NBA today is a lot more fun than it was in the 90s and 2000s. The offenses were so clunky, and the pace was terrible. In Jordan's final game, the 2 teams combined for 131 shots. In Game 5 of last year's finals, the 2 teams combined for 167 shots. There were obviously great players, but the overall skill set is higher now. It would have been awesome to see what Jordan could do in a more spread out, faster paced game like the one played today.

[Redsfaithful]

He's rich and miserable.

He absolutely is. And it's not new, he was miserable then too.

I actually think he might be a psychopath/sociopath? He definitely has tendencies that come out here and there during this miniseries, which is hilarious since he signed off on all of it.

[MWM]

A lot of the Uber rich are miserable.

[Hillsdale87]

I think a lot people remember the '96-'98 Jordan where his game was more reliant on his fade-away jumper and forget just how explosive he was in his younger years.

I was born in 1987, so my memories of Jordan are from his last 3 years, when he was still obviously incredible, but it's been cool to see clips from the earlier years when he was so explosive. The thing that's stood out to me is just how transformative he was for basketball. In his early years, he was so far ahead of most of the guys in the league from an athletic standpoint. The guys that were guarding him had no chance, and those guys would not be able to play in today's NBA. He forced the league to get more athletic to keep up with him. Then he was one of the first guys to take weight lifting seriously, and again the rest of the league had to catch up.

I think there's a reasonable argument about whether Jordan or Lebron are the best players of all time, but the gap between Jordan and his competition was much wider than the gap between Lebron and his competition.

[adkindo]

The failure of his comeback and his failure as a team owner have to be taken into account when discussing his overall legacy.

Failure? You mean when he came to a Washington team that had won 19 games the year before and put up 22/6/4 at the ages 38,39, and 40....while doubling the teams wins the first season he arrived? Who else in NBA history can claim that? Also, he is the most successful former player that is a primary owner of a team.....because he is in a group of 1. The very fact that as a former player he is the primary owner of a team is a massive success. I think those items only enhance his legacy.

- - - Updated - - -


A lot of the Uber rich are miserable.

a whole lot more uber poor are miserable....

[WVRed]

Failure? You mean when he came to a Washington team that had won 19 games the year before and put up 22/6/4 at the ages 38,39, and 40....while doubling the teams wins the first season he arrived? Who else in NBA history can claim that? Also, he is the most successful former player that is a primary owner of a team.....because he is in a group of 1. The very fact that as a former player he is the primary owner of a team is a massive success. I think those items only enhance his legacy.

- - - Updated - - -



a whole lot more uber poor are miserable....

The Bobcats/Hornets have been a laughingstock for the most part since coming back into the league.

Jordan the player is the GOAT hands down. As a person and executive, not so much.

[adkindo]

The Bobcats/Hornets have been a laughingstock for the most part since coming back into the league.

Jordan the player is the GOAT hands down. As a person and executive, not so much.

Not sure what you mean as a person.....the way he was towards teammates? Like he said, success has a price. He clearly made most of those guys better players, and probably better men in the long run. It was his team, and winning mattered above all else to him....if guys did not feel that way, they just needed to find another team....but they would not have the rings. When another former player is able to become the majority owner of a NBA team, then Jordan may be the 2nd best in a group of 2.

[M2]

Not sure what you mean as a person.....the way he was towards teammates? Like he said, success has a price. He clearly made most of those guys better players, and probably better men in the long run. It was his team, and winning mattered above all else to him....if guys did not feel that way, they just needed to find another team....but they would not have the rings. When another former player is able to become the majority owner of a NBA team, then Jordan may be the 2nd best in a group of 2.

Is the price that you have to be like Mike? Bill Russell wasn't. Wayne Gretzky wasn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Tom Brady wasn't. It seems that was the price of playing with Michael Jordan while he was winning. Greatest player ever, but if I could be along for the ride on any great team ever, I think the Bulls would be my last pick. They made winning look like no fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW8NKdBDnAw

[BillDoran]

The series is really enjoyable, especially given the circumstances, but it's a pretty gentle examination of Jordan.

Initially, I didn't realize he had some control in the production. And when he said people might not like him after viewing, I thought this might be a little more real and gritty. That was just advertising. It's pillowy soft. Even when he looks "bad," he's given the last word (frustrated teammates just weren't as competitive as him, the true champion). He's sad he has to stay in his hotel room while cashing gajillion dollar checks that put his face on every TV in the world. Fame's a *****. I could only imagine how isolating it is, and we're all in our own emotional prisons, but with a little context it ain't a bad life he was living.

Plain and simple, he was a jerk. Let him wear it.

[Todd Gack]

They play a ton of defense in today's game, but it's impossible to stop it when the other team can score from all over the court. We're back to ball movement, higher scoring games and skill dominating the league (like in the 80s when Jordan was electric) as opposed to the iso-heavy, low scoring, de facto wrestling match that the Jordan era bestowed upon us. He was great, but the game was dreary. That happened. It's right there in the game scores. Just watch episode two of this doc series for a comparison point for how far the game fell from that Celtics-Bulls playoff series in 1986. That was fire. The Bulls-Jazz matchups 11 and 12 years later is just brutally ugly basketball.

As for the greedy part, I don't begrudge him (or any player in any sport) the money he's made. Yet he seems to care about little else. He's rich and miserable. Compare him to Shaq, who also makes insane amounts of money. Shaq seems to have general passion for life that's absent in Jordan.

To each his own. I think today's NBAs brand of basketball sucks with guys just standing around the 3point line shooting 3's or layups. YAWN. Not to mention, it's refreshing to a player who doesn't want to in the spotlight every day of the week when he doesn't have to be.

Steve Jobs was insufferable and he's made one of the best companies in the world. Greatness has a price. If that makes him insufferable, well the game and its fans were rewarded for it.

[Redsfaithful]

The Bobcats/Hornets have been a laughingstock for the most part since coming back into the league.

Jordan the player is the GOAT hands down. As a person and executive, not so much.

He's a terrible owner. I have this theory that ex-players can be good execs/GMs/whatever but if they were TOO good as players it's almost like they are bringing in a liability. The game almost being too easy as a player might make it more difficult to build a team well. It's tunnel vision, where the way they had success is the only way.

Like, I doubt Jordan ever truly understood other players, what makes them tick, why other players have success. He might get better though, if he actually cares (which is another issue for some of these guys, do they actually care as much about being an exec as they did playing.)

[MWM]

Bill Russell wasn't. Wayne Gretzky wasn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Tom Brady


Bill Russell, Wayne Gretsky, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, and..... Derek Jeter?

[Chip R]

Could you imagine MJ being a coach? :eek:

[dubc47834]

He absolutely is. And it's not new, he was miserable then too.

I actually think he might be a psychopath/sociopath? He definitely has tendencies that come out here and there during this miniseries, which is hilarious since he signed off on all of it.

I think the only reason he may have been miserable was the media. They were digging into his gambling happening, and then trying to say that his gambling got his father killed. I think both have been discredited as the years have gone by.

[M2]

Bill Russell, Wayne Gretsky, Tom Brady, Michael Jordan, and..... Derek Jeter?

Jeets won, constantly. It was his team even when he wasn't the best player (bWAR ranks him as the top Yankee in 1998, 1999 and 2009 - which seems more than coincidental). Point being, he was the clubhouse leader on the most successful baseball franchise in modern era without constantly riding his teammates.

[M2]

To each his own. I think today's NBAs brand of basketball sucks with guys just standing around the 3point line shooting 3's or layups. YAWN.

Yeah, I hate it when players are good at their sport. Who wants to watch a fast-paced game with shooting and scoring when you could watch the intricacy of team Greco-Roman wrestling?

[Redsfaithful]

I think the only reason he may have been miserable was the media. They were digging into his gambling happening, and then trying to say that his gambling got his father killed. I think both have been discredited as the years have gone by.

That's true, it all feels kind of quaint now. It's kind of weird to say given so many things are so much harsher in the media now, but I think there would be enormous pushback on a story like that today (and there should have been then.) Journalists would get dragged to hell on Twitter for some of those stupid columns.

[Rdirtypirates]

Jeets won, constantly. It was his team even when he wasn't the best player (bWAR ranks him as the top Yankee in 1998, 1999 and 2009 - which seems more than coincidental). Point being, he was the clubhouse leader on the most successful baseball franchise in modern era without constantly riding his teammates.

Winning at basketball and baseball are two different things, not similar in the least. In basketball one player can make a championship team in baseball that is not how it works.

As for Jordan, what you hate is what made him and his teammates champions. He was out there to kill you at all costs, and if his teammates couldn't help do this he would kill them too. This is the reason, he is the goat and it is not even close.

[WVRed]

Not sure what you mean as a person.....the way he was towards teammates? Like he said, success has a price. He clearly made most of those guys better players, and probably better men in the long run. It was his team, and winning mattered above all else to him....if guys did not feel that way, they just needed to find another team....but they would not have the rings. When another former player is able to become the majority owner of a NBA team, then Jordan may be the 2nd best in a group of 2.

I think the documentary has explained it pretty well. Referring to both teammates and Harvey Gantt. Jordan was only concerned about winning and money.

[adkindo]

I think the documentary has explained it pretty well. Referring to both teammates and Harvey Gantt. Jordan was only concerned about winning and money.

Yet those same teammates mostly all still revere him. The Harvey Gantt thing or "republicans buy shoes too" is one of the most disingenuous marks the media has tried to place on anyone that I can recall. The truth is the media did not like it because it did not agree with their thoughts or agenda. The dude was a business man....gave a contribution to the candidate that he supported, but did not want to get publicly involved in politics because it may ostracize some fans of his product. At the time, very few high profile athletes got involved in politics or cultural issues. Hell it is 30 years later, and the sports media go on the record defending Lebron James, Steve Kerr and others when they play stupid on issues relating to China while championing them giving an opinion on everything else....because it fits their narrative. They call these guys brave and Jordan a coward absolutely disregarding the very different landscape and issues that the players are speaking out on. If you think Lebron James has spoke out on a single issue that his advisors have told him would significantly diminish his revenue from product sales, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you. How many times has an NFL or MLB player took a mild position that did not fit the media's preferred narrative, and they are hammered. It is just absolute disingenuous and hypocrisy to suggest that because Jordan did not provide his time and likeness to a political campaign in a state that he no longer even resided in is somehow a black mark on his resume.

[Redsfaithful]

lol his own mother asked him to do something and he said no

And, just to be clear, this wasn't just politics, it was a race in the state where he's from involving literally probably the most racist senator of the last century.

[adkindo]

Is the price that you have to be like Mike? Bill Russell wasn't. Wayne Gretzky wasn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Tom Brady wasn't. It seems that was the price of playing with Michael Jordan while he was winning. Greatest player ever, but if I could be along for the ride on any great team ever, I think the Bulls would be my last pick. They made winning look like no fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW8NKdBDnAw

Bill Russell? He played in a league with 8-10 teams in which his team often had 4 of the best 6 players in the league. Jeter was surrounded by an elite team his entire career. Neither of those guys had the responsibility for winning and losing as Jordan. I can't speak on Gretzky because I know very little about the sport when he played....and I would suggest that you take another look at Tom Brady....he definitely had some similarities to Jordan....maybe not to the same level because he was helped by the coach, but as Gronk how fun it was to play with Brady early in his career....even Randy Moss has spoke about Brady just being relentless in tearing into teammates when he did not think they were doing what was needed to win at the highest level. The guy would not even throw to guys if he did not approve of them or doubted them.

The Bulls were a very talented team, but the gap in team talent was never extreme during Jordan's career. The difference always was Jordan. Teams need different dynamics and roles, especially when the talent gap is limited. Consider the great Celtics teams with Russell.....you think Red Auerbach was a teddy bear? Phil Jackson had a different style, and it required a Jordan/Kobe to work....just as it required a Pippen/Shaq/Gasol (good cop) to work.

[adkindo]

lol his own mother asked him to do something and he said no

And, just to be clear, this wasn't just politics, it was a race in the state where he's from involving literally probably the most racist senator of the last century.

So you are going to be there supporting athletes that come out and support the 2nd Amendment? You are going to defend an athlete that writes an op-ed about why they are against abortion? If Jordan's mother asked him to come out and support these items, and he said no....you would have an issue with it?

[Redsfaithful]

So you are going to be there supporting athletes that come out and support the 2nd Amendment? You are going to defend an athlete that writes an op-ed about why they are against abortion?

I don't know why I'd need to support them, but no, I don't care when athletes do those things. I've always assumed most baseball players are conservative, it doesn't bother me.

And I guess it needs said again, this wasn't Jordan getting out the vote for Bill Clinton or something. You're really underplaying what a unique set of circumstances it was.

[M2]

Bill Russell? He played in a league with 8-10 teams in which his team often had 4 of the best 6 players in the league. Jeter was surrounded by an elite team his entire career. Neither of those guys had the responsibility for winning and losing as Jordan. I can't speak on Gretzky because I know very little about the sport when he played....and I would suggest that you take another look at Tom Brady....he definitely had some similarities to Jordan....maybe not to the same level because he was helped by the coach, but as Gronk how fun it was to play with Brady early in his career....even Randy Moss has spoke about Brady just being relentless in tearing into teammates when he did not think they were doing what was needed to win at the highest level. The guy would not even throw to guys if he did not approve of them or doubted them.

Well, I never hear about Tom Brady here in Boston (and I certainly don't have any former co-workers who cover the Patriots for a living). So I'm not going to spoil your illusions by telling you Brady's a generally even-keel guy who directs most of his intensity inward rather than outward. Anyway, the point remains: MJ was extra, 24/7/365. You don't have to be like Mike to win. He's a fairly extreme example of the winning-is-everything mindset.

[adkindo]

I don't know why I'd need to support them, but no, I don't care when athletes do those things. I've always assumed most baseball players are conservative, it doesn't bother me.

And I guess it needs said again, this wasn't Jordan getting out the vote for Bill Clinton or something. You're really underplaying what a unique set of circumstances it was.

Only you know you....but I strongly believe that the perception or recollection would be much different. I know the situation in regards to Helms but I do not think anyone should feel that Jordan is obligated to support any politician, especially with his time and likeness.....nor do I think any other business person in his situation would have acted differently at the time. Lets not pretend that there is politics and race are not the foundation of that mark....he is a black athlete, so he is "expected" to act and think a specific way or there must be a problem. The list is endless....but in recent years look how the response has been towards Stephen A Smith or Charles Barkley when they took a position culturally or politically that the media felt was unbecoming of a black athlete....or more specifically did not support a specific narrative. Finally, it would not have made a difference if Jordan showed up at an event for Gannt.....athletes do not move the political needle.

[adkindo]

Well, I never hear about Tom Brady here in Boston (and I certainly don't have any former co-workers who cover the Patriots for a living). So I'm not going to spoil your illusions by telling you Brady's a generally even-keel guy who directs most of his intensity inward rather than outward. Anyway, the point remains: MJ was extra, 24/7/365. You don't have to be like Mike to win. He's a fairly extreme example of the winning-is-everything mindset.

In regards to Brady, I am just going on statements by Gronk and Moss in recent months. Also, as I pointed out, Belichick was there. There have been countless stories in recent years from players talking about how it was not very fun to play in New England....success has a price, especially when the talent gap is thin.

[Redsfaithful]

Finally, it would not have made a difference if Jordan showed up at an event for Gannt.....athletes do not move the political needle.

I think they really wanted him to cut an ad, political advertising does move needles, if you don't agree then agree to disagree I guess.

A lot of the rest of your argument is moot, it wouldn't have hurt him with consumers, nothing he did there was going to be seen much outside of North Carolina.

[Chip R]

Only you know you....but I strongly believe that the perception or recollection would be much different. I know the situation in regards to Helms but I do not think anyone should feel that Jordan is obligated to support any politician, especially with his time and likeness.....nor do I think any other business person in his situation would have acted differently at the time. Lets not pretend that there is politics and race are not the foundation of that mark....he is a black athlete, so he is "expected" to act and think a specific way or there must be a problem. The list is endless....but in recent years look how the response has been towards Stephen A Smith or Charles Barkley when they took a position culturally or politically that the media felt was unbecoming of a black athlete....or more specifically did not support a specific narrative. Finally, it would not have made a difference if Jordan showed up at an event for Gannt.....athletes do not move the political needle.

If MJ were playing today and a similar situation came up; if he said that Republicans buy shoes too, he would get the same reaction but magnified because of sports and social media. However if he decided to publicly support the Democrat, he would be told to stick to sports. It's kind of a no win situation for famous people. Whatever they say is going to make people angry.

[adkindo]

I think they really wanted him to cut an ad, political advertising does move needles, if you don't agree then agree to disagree I guess.

A lot of the rest of your argument is moot, it wouldn't have hurt him with consumers, nothing he did there was going to be seen much outside of North Carolina.

You say it would not have hurt him...maybe you are correct, but I would point out the North Carolina was a fairly different place 30+ years ago as well as demographics, socioeconomics, etc. of the consumer base of his products. I am speculating, but I would guess a larger % of his shoe sales in the 80's was upper middle class suburban white kids because of the price point. I am speculating that because my family was not dirt poor, and I was not wearing the early versions of Jordan's (but i recall the couple kids that did) because the price point at the time was above other basketball shoes. By the early 90's, the price was not as "shocking" and families like mine were more willing to pay that price. Again, I admit I am just speculating. Also, let's be honest....in NC is in the 80's, a campaign would not have hesitated to put out an ad insinuating "this black athlete coming back to NC trying to tell all of us good white people who to vote for".....if I recall, Helms used some ads in that campaign that have been interpreted to have been racially charged near the end of the race. In the end, my belief is still that this is in no way a fair criticism of Jordan.

[Dom Heffner]

lol his own mother asked him to do something and he said no

And, just to be clear, this wasn't just politics, it was a race in the state where he's from involving literally probably the most racist senator of the last century.

To me this doc has made me love Jordan more.

He was not political. He was 100% about winning.

To have people complain that all someone cares about is championships- what?

I mean Jordan comes off as refreshing to me.

Winning was nice and all, but South Carolina was racist and Michael Jordan should have shifted focus...

As I say- Jordan wasnt political. To hate on him for being something he wasnt...kind of like hating rain for not curing the flu.

[Todd Gack]

Yeah, I hate it when players are good at their sport. Who wants to watch a fast-paced game with shooting and scoring when you could watch the intricacy of team Greco-Roman wrestling?

I understand why they're doing it but I'm just not a fan. I'm only 36 but I feel like I have the mindset of a 65-year-old at times when I don't want it to change. I just find that brand of basketball boring.

But overall, I hate the NBA more because of all the other crap off the court. That's why I love Jordan. To him, everything is about basketball and that's what I want it to be. I don't really care what his opinion is on issues whether I agree with him or not.

[Todd Gack]

Well, I never hear about Tom Brady here in Boston (and I certainly don't have any former co-workers who cover the Patriots for a living). So I'm not going to spoil your illusions by telling you Brady's a generally even-keel guy who directs most of his intensity inward rather than outward. Anyway, the point remains: MJ was extra, 24/7/365. You don't have to be like Mike to win. He's a fairly extreme example of the winning-is-everything mindset.

The Brady comparison is not a good one just from a math standpoint. Jordan makes up 20% of the players on the court and is worth much more. Brady makes up less than 10%. There are a lot of factors into that, but I digress. Did Jordan need to do that? Yes, in his mind. Instead of winning 6, he might win 3 or 4 but that's worth it to him. He's so competitive that I think there's a reason he wanted this to come out now. He was starting to hear too much bullcrap about how Lebron is better than him and he wanted everyone, including a new generation to know, that Lebron is a level below him.

[Redsfaithful]

To have people complain that all someone cares about is championships- what?

This is pretty funny because nobody has complained about his drive to win.

I find Michael Jordan hysterical myself, if someone watching this isn't laughing at large portions of it then I have to wonder about them.

I love Jordan, but he's pretty clearly out there. Surprised that's a controversial statement, but I guess I shouldn't be, he's a sacred cow for so many people.

I have a lot of nostalgia for 90s sports because I was a kid then, and it certainly had a ton of great moments and stories, but it's all more interesting now.

Roid baseball, boring hacking low scoring basketball, golf mostly before Tiger Woods, tennis before Fed/Nadal, the NFL dominated by pretty boring teams like Dallas and Denver, give me sports now any day, and that includes Jordan vs. someone like Lebron.

I'll say too, dynasties like the Bulls are more interesting in hindsight, living through them is impressive but boring because of a lack of drama. That's a testament to them, but as a fan it's not ideal. The NBA has suffered from this a lot recently obviously.

[Revering4Blue]

As a resident of North Carolina (and voter) during both Gantt/Helms Senate races, and (full disclosure) a supporter of the candidate that many feel MJ was 'obligated' to publicly support/endorse, I completely understand why Jordan declined to do so:

1)The chances of a public endorsement of Gantt by Michael Jordan producing a discernible impact on the outcome of the election were slimmer than slim - Michael Jordan's opinion, as well as the feelings of his family, about Gantt's opponent were well known at the time anyway. And it's not as if critics of the incumbent Senator were not motivated enough to flock to the polls to vote. They certainly were and did so, and it still didn't move the needle enough to win the election.

2)No getting around it, his brand would have suffered as a result - Aside from the obvious fact that both elections took place during a time in which (A)The internet was unavailable to average consumers (B)The internet, as we know it, was in its infancy stage, and during the pre-Social Media (and the marketing/promoting advantages thereof) era, there were other additional factors in play here:

Jordan's Tar Heel brand - While Chapel Hill, NC was considered a 'Liberal haven' - and still is - within the State, it was also safe to assume that many Tar Heel fans and supporters resided in rural settings, and likely supported Gantt's opponent. What if the child/teenager of a member of said demographic wanted their parents to buy Jordan-branded shoes or a Jordan Tar Heel/Bulls jersey? Yep, it would've been an issue for sure.

This high-profile Senate Race, which attracted a HUGE amount of attention Nationwide, encompassed more than party lines - I'm going to refrain from expounding on certain issues as this is not the Political board, but both candidates -- who were viewed by many as expressing views too extreme for the mainstream for either party at the time -- received a significant amount of support from registered voters from the opposite party. Therefore, instead of Republicans buy shoes too, it would have, as it turned out, to be more accurately stated as "Voters buy shoes too." Translation: It wasn't worth the risk for MJ and his brands (North Carolina native son/National - NBA) to be placed in such a situation.

That's why, regardless of the vocal positions of entertainers in today's Social Media department, MJ deserves a pass for this.

[WVRed]

This is pretty funny because nobody has complained about his drive to win.

I find Michael Jordan hysterical myself, if someone watching this isn't laughing at large portions of it then I have to wonder about them.

I love Jordan, but he's pretty clearly out there. Surprised that's a controversial statement, but I guess I shouldn't be, he's a sacred cow for so many people.

I have a lot of nostalgia for 90s sports because I was a kid then, and it certainly had a ton of great moments and stories, but it's all more interesting now.

Roid baseball, boring hacking low scoring basketball, golf mostly before Tiger Woods, tennis before Fed/Nadal, the NFL dominated by pretty boring teams like Dallas and Denver, give me sports now any day, and that includes Jordan vs. someone like Lebron.

I'll say too, dynasties like the Bulls are more interesting in hindsight, living through them is impressive but boring because of a lack of drama. That's a testament to them, but as a fan it's not ideal. The NBA has suffered from this a lot recently obviously.

I’m hoping in 20 years we get a Patriots 30/30. Not because I like or don’t like them but they are clearly the Bulls of our generation.

The Warriors are a close second but seeing the Belichick-Brady relationship implode up close would be worth it.

[Tony Cloninger]

Has anyone read The Jordan Rules? Great book. Jordan is a very motivated player that wanted to win games or matchups in practice. He would scare and intimidate players in practice and expected you to be ready to win.

Players that were around during the late 80s and early 90s would never get on teams now we all know that. But it was a league that revolved around the Center until Michael showed that you could win without a good one. But only he could do that. The Rockets who won when Jordan went to play baseball and then the Spurs after he retired. The Lakers with Shaq.
They needed a center while Jordan could win with Cartwright. Longley?

The low scoring thug like defending was also nothing to do with Jordan and the Bulls either.

It started with the Pistons. And so called Jordan rules to stop him which was to get dirty with him and knock him around. Make him mad. Make him try to win the game himself.

Pay Riley then took it to the next level. Mr. Showtime went rogue and started winning games where neither team scored 90 points on a lot of nights. The games just got ugly with the exception of those early 2000s Laker teams.

[M2]

I understand why they're doing it but I'm just not a fan. I'm only 36 but I feel like I have the mindset of a 65-year-old at times when I don't want it to change. I just find that brand of basketball boring.

But overall, I hate the NBA more because of all the other crap off the court. That's why I love Jordan. To him, everything is about basketball and that's what I want it to be. I don't really care what his opinion is on issues whether I agree with him or not.

I think I see the problem. You completely missed the more open game of the '70s and '80s. They're playing that way again because they can do it. The skill level is insane now, and constantly progressing. That dire brand of basketball where if you had two guys who could score reliably that was a lot (and three made you a super team), that's dead. It was offensive watching teams full of bricklayers.

As for players being more vocal, I find it refreshing.

[WVRed]

Too one-sided against Krause, who is not around to defend himself, while granting Reinsdorf an undeserved free pass.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

Reinsdorf didn’t get a free pass tonight.

[Revering4Blue]

Reinsdorf didn’t get a free pass tonight.It's about time.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

[adkindo]

I have heard a couple first person accounts (claims) and many 2nd and 3rd person stories about his son Marcus while he was @ UCF....and none of them paint him as a solid dude. His other son transferred to UCF later, and I have heard he was much cooler and respectful of other people.

[Todd Gack]

As for players being more vocal, I find it refreshing.

That's cool. But I don't watch sports for their political views whether it be Aubrey Huff, Trevor Bauer, or Lebron James. The NBA, collectively as a whole, is so much worse than pretty much every other league and that's why they've lost a lot of fans. Get someone back who bring's back the demeanor of MJ and you'll have a better fanbase . . . .. again.

[adkindo]

That's cool. But I don't watch sports for their political views whether it be Aubrey Huff, Trevor Bauer, or Lebron James. The NBA, collectively as a whole, is so much worse than pretty much every other league and that's why they've lost a lot of fans. Get someone back who bring's back the demeanor of MJ and you'll have a better fanbase . . . .. again.

I do not mind if they have political views and even express them....just do not use your platform to "educate" me without consent. So if John Smith, sports superstar, wants to talk about his views, do not bring me to the table under the guise of being there to see Mr. Smith perform as a sports superstar. Just be transparent about the content that will be delivered up front. Also if Mr. Smith makes his political views known, especially if he trashes my beliefs in the process, do not complain when everyone does not just nod approvingly. Finally, if you want to take a position and be "brave"....take a position with substance and be educated on the facts...not talking points. Great, you are against gun violence.....bet you like puppy dogs also? Nobody supports gun violence!

[adkindo]

For everyone that feels The Last Dance is propaganda and less than the full story.....wait until Lebron releases his multiple mini series about his greatness. They will challenge North Korea in the area of propaganda.

[Reds Freak]

That's cool. But I don't watch sports for their political views whether it be Aubrey Huff, Trevor Bauer, or Lebron James. The NBA, collectively as a whole, is so much worse than pretty much every other league and that's why they've lost a lot of fans. Get someone back who bring's back the demeanor of MJ and you'll have a better fanbase . . . .. again.

I don't follow the NBA too closely but I think by most measures, the NBA seems to be growing in popularity. Do you have stats that say otherwise?

[Rojo Rijo]

My only real issue with todays game vs. the way it was back then is that now there are frequently periods of time where even touching the ball handler results in a foul. The residual effects of this being more space for the offensive player to operate. A prime example of this is James Harden but there are many others.

I feel the same way about WRs vs. DBs in todays game, a big reason we've seen the scoring boom in football over the past 5-7 years. (Well that and the increased protection for QBs).

[WVRed]

That's cool. But I don't watch sports for their political views whether it be Aubrey Huff, Trevor Bauer, or Lebron James. The NBA, collectively as a whole, is so much worse than pretty much every other league and that's why they've lost a lot of fans. Get someone back who bring's back the demeanor of MJ and you'll have a better fanbase . . . .. again.

Totally agree with this.

I think it’s only refreshing when you agree with said political views. If an athlete had conservative viewpoints, it would be “killing their brand”.

Does anyone think less of Tom Brady and others for supporting Trump? I would have used Curt Schilling but he’s in a class by himself.

[Todd Gack]

This is pretty funny because nobody has complained about his drive to win.

I find Michael Jordan hysterical myself, if someone watching this isn't laughing at large portions of it then I have to wonder about them.

I love Jordan, but he's pretty clearly out there. Surprised that's a controversial statement, but I guess I shouldn't be, he's a sacred cow for so many people.

I have a lot of nostalgia for 90s sports because I was a kid then, and it certainly had a ton of great moments and stories, but it's all more interesting now.

Roid baseball, boring hacking low scoring basketball, golf mostly before Tiger Woods, tennis before Fed/Nadal, the NFL dominated by pretty boring teams like Dallas and Denver, give me sports now any day, and that includes Jordan vs. someone like Lebron.

I'll say too, dynasties like the Bulls are more interesting in hindsight, living through them is impressive but boring because of a lack of drama. That's a testament to them, but as a fan it's not ideal. The NBA has suffered from this a lot recently obviously.

You know, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Jordan's psychological make up is exhausting and would be exhausting to be around. But his views on leadership and will to win are what everyone aspires to be but aren't necessarily healthy or feasible. His will to win is so great, it greatly affects the rest of his life. He just doesn't know how else to function in real life without some type of competition.

[Redsfaithful]

Does anyone think less of Tom Brady and others for supporting Trump? I would have used Curt Schilling but he’s in a class by himself.

Schilling has actually hurt himself yeah, Brady though I don't think people largely care.

This ended well. Really enjoyable. I'm going back and watching the OJ: Made In America documentary because I enjoyed this so much. It's heavier subject matter but so far it's probably even better.

[Sea Ray]

Schilling has actually hurt himself yeah, Brady though I don't think people largely care.

This ended well. Really enjoyable. I'm going back and watching the OJ: Made In America documentary because I enjoyed this so much. It's heavier subject matter but so far it's probably even better.

Is there really anything new to be learned from OJ? I think we all know what happened. He killed two people. He got off thanks to a high priced legal team (that were ultimately never paid in full), an outclassed prosecution team and a jury that sought to even the score on a history of bad results for blacks

[Redsfaithful]

Is there really anything new to be learned from OJ? I think we all know what happened. He killed two people. He got off thanks to a high priced legal team (that were ultimately never paid in full), an outclassed prosecution team and a jury that sought to even the score on a history of bad results for blacks

For sure, I thought I knew the story too and avoided it at the time for that reason. And largely, I do know many of the story beats, but it fills in around the edges and it's just very well done so I'm enjoying it so far. The archival footage in these makes them worth watching all on its own, for me at least.

[M2]

That's cool. But I don't watch sports for their political views whether it be Aubrey Huff, Trevor Bauer, or Lebron James. The NBA, collectively as a whole, is so much worse than pretty much every other league and that's why they've lost a lot of fans. Get someone back who bring's back the demeanor of MJ and you'll have a better fanbase . . . .. again.

The NBA is doing great. It's become a 12-month league. If you're gone, it doesn't need you.

[Todd Gack]

Schilling has actually hurt himself yeah, Brady though I don't think people largely care.

This ended well. Really enjoyable. I'm going back and watching the OJ: Made In America documentary because I enjoyed this so much. It's heavier subject matter but so far it's probably even better.

The OJ documentary was better than MJ's IMO. And i LOVED the Bulls.

[Todd Gack]

The NBA is doing great. It's become a 12-month league. If you're gone, it doesn't need you.

I don't think the NBA misses me either. I've never really been a fan in the last. . . . 10-15 years or so? I might watch some of the playoffs but never hardcore. I suppose I'm just a somewhat casual observer. I've become too busy to care about them and I care because I love baseball, NCAA/NFL football, and college basketball's product so much more. Of course, I think MLB's marketing is so crappy but I love the game itself.

Anyway, you're right that it doesn't need me.

[M2]

I don't think the NBA misses me either. I've never really been a fan in the last. . . . 10-15 years or so? I might watch some of the playoffs but never hardcore. I suppose I'm just a somewhat casual observer. I've become too busy to care about them and I care because I love baseball, NCAA/NFL football, and college basketball's product so much more. Of course, I think MLB's marketing is so crappy but I love the game itself.

Anyway, you're right that it doesn't need me.

I went more than two decades without giving the NBA much attention. Then I noticed the game had opened up when the Warriors suddenly became the hottest thing on the planet and it was like, "They're playing basketball again? Sign me up."

[redsfanmia]

The OJ documentary was better than MJ's IMO. And i LOVED the Bulls.

There are multiple 30/30 that are far superior to The Last Dance, had it been 4-5 episodes it would have been much better.

[Chip R]

Is there really anything new to be learned from OJ? I think we all know what happened. He killed two people. He got off thanks to a high priced legal team (that were ultimately never paid in full), an outclassed prosecution team and a jury that sought to even the score on a history of bad results for blacks

I haven't seen the O.J. documentary yet but it is a fascinating subject. This inner city kid wins the Heisman at USC and becomes one of the most popular and beloved sports figures of the 70s. He used his popularity to be in movies and even years after he retired he was still popular. It certainly wasn't common knowledge that he was an abuser. Then the double murder happened and most everyone turned against him. As popular as he was in the 70s and 80s, he is reviled now and that won't change.

[WVRed]

There are multiple 30/30 that are far superior to The Last Dance, had it been 4-5 episodes it would have been much better.

The only 30/30s I’ve really watched prior to The Last Dance was One and Not Done (Calipari), Belichick-Parcells, and the Celtics-Lakers one.

[adkindo]

I'm going back and watching the OJ: Made In America documentary because I enjoyed this so much. It's heavier subject matter but so far it's probably even better.

OJ: Made In America was really good.

[adkindo]

I went more than two decades without giving the NBA much attention. Then I noticed the game had opened up when the Warriors suddenly became the hottest thing on the planet and it was like, "They're playing basketball again? Sign me up."

Fanboy ;)

[Roy Tucker]

Catching up on these episodes. Jordan’s comment to Larry Bird after winning game 7 against the Pacers was priceless.

[adkindo]

Catching up on these episodes. Jordan’s comment to Larry Bird after winning game 7 against the Pacers was priceless.

yeah, that was great.....he really became fairly tight with Magic and Bird during the Dream Team.

[WVRed]

Catching up on these episodes. Jordan’s comment to Larry Bird after winning game 7 against the Pacers was priceless.

Black Jesus is now a thing and not from Family Guy or Adult Swim.

[adkindo]

For everyone that feels The Last Dance is propaganda and less than the full story.....wait until Lebron releases his multiple mini series about his greatness. They will challenge North Korea in the area of propaganda.


Jon Machota
@jonmachota

LeBron James on @uninterrupted said he started training for football during the 2011 NBA lockout. His trainer kept telling him how great it would be for him to play for the Cowboys. “The thoughts came into my mind.” Jerry Jones sent him a contract. LBJ has it framed in his office

9:07 PM · May 18, 2020

Someone was watching "The Last Dance"....dude is so thirsty.

[Rojo Rijo]

This is pretty funny because nobody has complained about his drive to win.

I find Michael Jordan hysterical myself, if someone watching this isn't laughing at large portions of it then I have to wonder about them.

I love Jordan, but he's pretty clearly out there. Surprised that's a controversial statement, but I guess I shouldn't be, he's a sacred cow for so many people.

I have a lot of nostalgia for 90s sports because I was a kid then, and it certainly had a ton of great moments and stories, but it's all more interesting now.

Roid baseball, boring hacking low scoring basketball, golf mostly before Tiger Woods, tennis before Fed/Nadal, the NFL dominated by pretty boring teams like Dallas and Denver, give me sports now any day, and that includes Jordan vs. someone like Lebron.

I'll say too, dynasties like the Bulls are more interesting in hindsight, living through them is impressive but boring because of a lack of drama. That's a testament to them, but as a fan it's not ideal. The NBA has suffered from this a lot recently obviously.

I’d love to hear a good argument why Dallas and Denver were “pretty boring” teams in the 90s. Not something you typically hear about teams with multiple SBs over a short period of time, especially ones with some of the most notable offensive players of all time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bob Sheed]

I’d love to hear a good argument why Dallas and Denver were “pretty boring” teams in the 90s. Not something you typically hear about teams with multiple SBs over a short period of time, especially ones with some of the most notable offensive players of all time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Elway's Broncos offenses were usually pretty boring.

Until the 4th quarter.

[Sea Ray]

I haven't seen the O.J. documentary yet but it is a fascinating subject. This inner city kid wins the Heisman at USC and becomes one of the most popular and beloved sports figures of the 70s. He used his popularity to be in movies and even years after he retired he was still popular. It certainly wasn't common knowledge that he was an abuser. Then the double murder happened and most everyone turned against him. As popular as he was in the 70s and 80s, he is reviled now and that won't change.

It's been common knowledge for 25 yrs that he's an abuser and a sociopath. Personally I'm disgusted that he got off and I don't care to relive that. They had so much evidence that it wasn't possible that anyone else could have done it or that he could have been framed. It was that overwhelming. I did learn new terms like jury nullification. I also learned that being a nice guy is not a good quality for a judge to have. Judge Ito's leadership and handling of that courtroom was abysmal.

[Sea Ray]

What is it about the NBA that they need to constantly debate things like the best ever and the Mount Rushmore? After this show, that was the question of the day. Who's better, MJ or LeBron? I don't see this sort of thing in other sports. We don't debate the best of all time in MLB. Nor in the NFL, but ESPN and various sports talk shows love the subject of the GOAT of the NBA. It bores me

[adkindo]

What is it about the NBA that they need to constantly debate things like the best ever and the Mount Rushmore? After this show, that was the question of the day. Who's better, MJ or LeBron? I don't see this sort of thing in other sports. We don't debate the best of all time in MLB. Nor in the NFL, but ESPN and various sports talk shows love the subject of the GOAT of the NBA. It bores me

it is an easier debate in the NBA.....there are far less players on the field/court and each has an opportunity to contribute is all of the statistical categories. At 10K feet, every player has to have basic skills like pass, dribble, shoot and defend. Clearly at 100 feet, there is a difference between a PG and C, but they still put numbers on the same stat lines. In contrast, Tom Brady is a great QB, but he would not be in the NFL in any other position except maybe a Kicker/Punter.....he literally does not possess the skill and/or athleticism to play any other position on the field. In baseball is Koufax better than Aaron? Bonds better than Clemons? Prove it.

[Sea Ray]

it is an easier debate in the NBA.....there are far less players on the field/court and each has an opportunity to contribute is all of the statistical categories. At 10K feet, every player has to have basic skills like pass, dribble, shoot and defend. Clearly at 100 feet, there is a difference between a PG and C, but they still put numbers on the same stat lines. In contrast, Tom Brady is a great QB, but he would not be in the NFL in any other position except maybe a Kicker/Punter.....he literally does not possess the skill and/or athleticism to play any other position on the field. In baseball is Koufax better than Aaron? Bonds better than Clemons? Prove it.

I find the NBA debates similarly less fulfilling. LeBron's game is very different from Jordan's and Larry Bird's game is different still. Then there's Oscar Robinson. I find such debates go nowhere.

[BuckeyeRed27]

The only 30/30s I’ve really watched prior to The Last Dance was One and Not Done (Calipari), Belichick-Parcells, and the Celtics-Lakers one.

There are some really good ones. I think they are all in the ESPN+ app now too. I watched a few of them a couple weeks ago. My favorites are "The U" and the "The Two Escobars". The one about the OJ Bronco chase and everything else going on that day is interesting. There is one about the Dallas Carter High School football team that beat the Odessa team of "Friday Night Lights" fame that is really good, although sad. I also really like the one about the QBs in the 1983 NFL Draft.

[Boston Red]

I feel kind of cheated. There's this whole national phenomenon about this documentary, but as a Utah Jazz fan I'm not interested in reliving a single second of it. Not one.

[adkindo]

I find the NBA debates similarly less fulfilling. LeBron's game is very different from Jordan's and Larry Bird's game is different still. Then there's Oscar Robinson. I find such debates go nowhere.

they are very different within the nuance of the game.....but not as different as Tom Brady's and Aaron Donald's game. There is a world where we can have a logical conversation about comparing Lebron and Bird....but how do you even attempt to have that discussion comparing Brady and Donald? Other sports play both offense and defense like basketball....but in every position on the court a player can make steals, block shots, defend in space, fight through screens, decide when to double compared to baseball where taking hard hit grounders is just not a priority for a Catcher or Outfielders....and a SS is never going to have to rob a HR. My point is the basketball discussion is easier to have than other major sports.

[adkindo]

I feel kind of cheated. There's this whole national phenomenon about this documentary, but as a Utah Jazz fan I'm not interested in reliving a single second of it. Not one.

I would feel cheated in general everyday.....if I was a Jazz fan! ;)

[adkindo]

I have been playing out the Flu Game / Pizzagate story and there are parts that I struggle with in the way it was told. Ok, even if we accept in the late 90's pizza delivery guys came all the way to the room of a normal person....but Michael Jordan? If you are the hotel, and you have the most famous basketball player in the world and his teammates on the 6th floor, I am thinking while they are there, outsiders are not getting to the 6th floor. Even if the hotel did not have any security in place.....how does someone on his team not meet the delivery guy (or delivery team in this case) in the lobby? Also in the story, it feels like they are trying to make Salt Lake City seem like Little House on the Prairie. I get that they stayed outside of the city, but it was still 10PM outside a metropolitan area. If there was a hotel in the area, I am confident every pizza joint was not closed @ 10PM except 1. They tried to make it seem weird that 4 or 5 guys made the delivery, but I do not find that weird. If I am a 19 year old pizza shop worker, and a delivery request comes in from the hotel that I would guess everyone knows the Bulls are staying at....I am volunteering to go on that run and I assume everyone else that was available would also. Finally, I do not buy into any insinuation that the food was purposely altered or anything.....that is just something that 99.999% of people would not do in my opinion. I would think the shop owner or manager would be more likely to try to ensure the Bulls player thought the pizza was the best in Utah.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I feel kind of cheated. There's this whole national phenomenon about this documentary, but as a Utah Jazz fan I'm not interested in reliving a single second of it. Not one.

It sucks. I hated it before when every sports montage has that freaking shot, but now there is a whole documentary that is all anyone is talking about because there is absolutely nothing else going on in sports.

I always felt more bitter about the 97 Finals than the 98 Finals. Jazz went down 3-1 in 98 and lost game 3 by like 1000 points. But 97...lost games 5 and 6 when they were tied or leading in the last 2 minutes. Game 6 they had a 9 point lead early in the 4th quarter too. I'm going to go throw some things for a while now to feel better.

[Boston Red]

I guess, but after Utah choked away game 5 at home, I knew the 1997 series was over. No way the Jazz were going to win twice in Chicago. Getting home in 1998 with a chance to win a title by winning two games where the Jazz almost never lost was such a great opportunity. Then to have the sequence of Malone allowing himself to get stripped, Jordan hitting his shot, and Stockton not even coming close on his was hard to take.

[Reds Freak]

Perhaps it was punishment for those awful '90s Jazz uniforms or not changing their name after moving from New Orleans.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I guess, but after Utah choked away game 5 at home, I knew the 1997 series was over. No way the Jazz were going to win twice in Chicago. Getting home in 1998 with a chance to win a title by winning two games where the Jazz almost never lost was such a great opportunity. Then to have the sequence of Malone allowing himself to get stripped, Jordan hitting his shot, and Stockton not even coming close on his was hard to take.

I think Stockton only had one good game in 98. Hornacek has a great series, but Stockton was off.

Malone gets some heat for that strip, but I think that's more of a great play by Jordan than Malone making a mistake. He missed a lay up in the final minute of Game 5 in 97 that was a way bigger deal than the strip.

[Cyclone792]

I was a Jazz fan in the 1990s too and really liked Stockton and Malone. They frustrated me growing up because it seemed like they'd have a great year only to flame out in the playoffs. Then in 1997 it finally seemed like their time arrived.

My take is I think the 98 Finals is the one where they blew it. I believe the Bulls were a slightly weaker team in 1998 than they were in 1997, and the Bulls did have home court in 1997. So I sort of expected the Jazz to lose in 1997.

But 1998 is a shame. The Jazz were down 3-1, but they did fight their tail off to win game 5 and get it back to Utah. Then Pippen hurt his back. That was the prime opportunity right there. Playing at home and Pippen injured. The Jazz screwed up by letting Chicago just constantly stay in the game despite Pippen being a shell of himself. That to me is the big loss - those last 40 seconds would have never mattered if the Jazz lead would have been seven or eight points instead of just three points.

Had Utah won game 6, then game 7 would have been a similar situation. Playing at home and Pippen injured. Big time advantage.

But none of that ever happened. And Jordan did what Jordan seemingly always did.

EDIT: I forgot about the Howard Eisley three pointer that should have counted. Thanks again, Dick Bavetta.

[Cyclone792]

Apparently they're making Game 6 into a movie: https://sports.yahoo.com/espn-keeps-last-dance-vibes-going-with-movie-about-game-6-of-1998-nba-finals-144342051.html

Other than the Jazz wounds, I really enjoyed the documentary. I grew up loving the NBA in the 1990s, and this brought back a lot of good memories. It was also really nice to see a lot of 1990s game footage in high definition.

The basketball nostalgia even led to me breaking out some of my old basketball cards these last few weeks for the first time in probably 15 years. They've been sitting largely untouched ever since it became obvious that they weren't worth much more than kindling to start a fire. I guess that's somewhat changed now, but only if you're willing to throw even more money today at the card industry. Apparently if you're willing to fork out $35/card to get them graded by PSA some of them might be worth a little bit of money.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I was a Jazz fan in the 1990s too and really liked Stockton and Malone. They frustrated me growing up because it seemed like they'd have a great year only to flame out in the playoffs. Then in 1997 it finally seemed like their time arrived.

My take is I think the 98 Finals is the one where they blew it. I believe the Bulls were a slightly weaker team in 1998 than they were in 1997, and the Bulls did have home court in 1997. So I sort of expected the Jazz to lose in 1997.

But 1998 is a shame. The Jazz were down 3-1, but they did fight their tail off to win game 5 and get it back to Utah. Then Pippen hurt his back. That was the prime opportunity right there. Playing at home and Pippen injured. The Jazz screwed up by letting Chicago just constantly stay in the game despite Pippen being a shell of himself. That to me is the big loss - those last 40 seconds would have never mattered if the Jazz lead would have been seven or eight points instead of just three points.

Had Utah won game 6, then game 7 would have been a similar situation. Playing at home and Pippen injured. Big time advantage.

But none of that ever happened. And Jordan did what Jordan seemingly always did.

EDIT: I forgot about the Howard Eisley three pointer that should have counted. Thanks again, Dick Bavetta.

That was bad, but it was earlier in the game.

Game 6 in 97 Pippen just grabs the rim with like 20 seconds to go and Anderson misses a lay up because of it. Should have been up 2 before Kerr hit what ended up being the winner.

[M2]

Perhaps it was punishment for those awful '90s Jazz uniforms or not changing their name after moving from New Orleans.

IMO, it's punishment for continuing to call themselves the Jazz. The Grizzlies have a similar problem.

[WVRed]

One of the biggest What Ifs from the end of Sunday night:

Krause is given the ok to send Pippen to the Celtics for picks 3 and 6. Does Pippen elevate the Celtics or do they crash under Rick Pitino?

Do the Bulls pick T-Mac with one of the picks as rumored? And/or Chauncey Billups?

[M2]

One of the biggest What Ifs from the end of Sunday night:

Krause is given the ok to send Pippen to the Celtics for picks 3 and 6. Does Pippen elevate the Celtics or do they crash under Rick Pitino?

Do the Bulls pick T-Mac with one of the picks as rumored? And/or Chauncey Billups?

The Celtics crash under Pitino in every conceivable timeline.

[adkindo]

IMO, it's punishment for continuing to call themselves the Jazz. The Grizzlies have a similar problem.

how do the Lakers fit into that theory?

[M2]

how do the Lakers fit into that theory?

Apparently there are enough lakes around Greater Los Angeles to spare them.

[Revering4Blue]

Has anyone read The Jordan Rules? Great book. Jordan is a very motivated player that wanted to win games or matchups in practice. He would scare and intimidate players in practice and expected you to be ready to win.

Players that were around during the late 80s and early 90s would never get on teams now we all know that. But it was a league that revolved around the Center until Michael showed that you could win without a good one. But only he could do that. The Rockets who won when Jordan went to play baseball and then the Spurs after he retired. The Lakers with Shaq.
They needed a center while Jordan could win with Cartwright. Longley?

The low scoring thug like defending was also nothing to do with Jordan and the Bulls either.

It started with the Pistons. And so called Jordan rules to stop him which was to get dirty with him and knock him around. Make him mad. Make him try to win the game himself.

Pay Riley then took it to the next level. Mr. Showtime went rogue and started winning games where neither team scored 90 points on a lot of nights. The games just got ugly with the exception of those early 2000s Laker teams.

Several good points here. But...

1)MJ, whose game in today's NBA environment would resemble his electrifying pre-Triangle offense days, ushered the ISO ball era into the league -- especially once he returned to the NBA after playing baseball, as the overall pace/scoring of the game hadn't yet precipitously declined during the Bulls' early '90's championship seasons -- with the clear-outs that wouldn't/couldn't work well today with the elimination of the illegal defense rule.

2)The main difference between the Bad Boy Pistons and the later contenders that designed their rosters/schemes in the fashion of said Pistons teams (Riley's Knicks and Alonzo Mourning-era Heat, Reggie Miller and the Pacers): The Pistons with Dantley, Zeke, Dumars, Laimbeer and Vinnie Johnson, had considerably more offensive firepower and could function efficiently within the confines of a slower-paced game if need be.

3)Six expansion teams were added from '88 (when the league was arguably at it's peak from a quality of play standpoint) to '95, during a time period in which the worldwide basketball infrastructure/talent was not strong enough to compensate for the dilution of talent, unlike today.

[Revering4Blue]

I think I see the problem. You completely missed the more open game of the '70s and '80s. They're playing that way again because they can do it. The skill level is insane now, and constantly progressing. That dire brand of basketball where if you had two guys who could score reliably that was a lot (and three made you a super team), that's dead. It was offensive watching teams full of bricklayers.

Which is precisely why I don't buy the "scoring is higher today than 1998 (or so) only because of three-point shooting" argument. Scores were plenty high even before the advent of the NBA three point shot. And even once the rule came into play, and it was yet to be emphasized, overall scores were still much higher than '95-'05 or so. You hit the nail on the head with ball movement, and it's also important to note that teams were also much more effective pre-slugfest era with producing solid low-post play within the confines of a faster pace of play. When Moses Malone and Kareem were dominating, the games still moved along at a fast pace while producing both higher scoring and solid defense.

[Revering4Blue]

One of the biggest What Ifs from the end of Sunday night:

Krause is given the ok to send Pippen to the Celtics for picks 3 and 6. Does Pippen elevate the Celtics or do they crash under Rick Pitino?

Do the Bulls pick T-Mac with one of the picks as rumored? And/or Chauncey Billups?

Apparently, T-Mac would have been the pick. Anyway, this is a fun article:

What if the Bulls did trade Scottie Pippen? Exploring three blockbusters deals that never came to fruition
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/what-if-the-bulls-did-trade-scottie-pippen-exploring-three-blockbusters-deals-that-never-came-to-fruition/

[Tony Cloninger]

Several good points here. But...

1)MJ, whose game in today's NBA environment would resemble his electrifying pre-Triangle offense days, ushered the ISO ball era into the league -- especially once he returned to the NBA after playing baseball, as the overall pace/scoring of the game hadn't yet precipitously declined during the Bulls' early '90's championship seasons -- with the clear-outs that wouldn't/couldn't work well today with the elimination of the illegal defense rule.

2)The main difference between the Bad Boy Pistons and the later contenders that designed their rosters/schemes in the fashion of said Pistons teams (Riley's Knicks and Alonzo Mourning-era Heat, Reggie Miller and the Pacers): The Pistons with Dantley, Zeke, Dumars, Laimbeer and Vinnie Johnson, had considerably more offensive firepower and could function efficiently within the confines of a slower-paced game if need be.

3)Six expansion teams were added from '88 (when the league was arguably at it's peak from a quality of play standpoint) to '95, during a time period in which the worldwide basketball infrastructure/talent was not strong enough to compensate for the dilution of talent, unlike today.

I completely forgot to factor the expansion that made it easier to go into defensive mode and play this way when you have a lack of offensive talent coming in with the extra teams. At least that’s how I saw it. Easier to play defense by smothering people then trying to make shots or create them.

It reminds me of how they would say introducing the DH made the AL increase their offensive output. It was the 1977 expansion that did that. Between 1973-76 the NL still had the better offense overall just on the talent of 4 teams alone. Reds. Pirates. Dodgers. Phillies.

I do agree the Pistons had a better offense then people remember. I do myself as Thomas and Dumars were very good. The bad boy stuff gets remembered more since it sold papers especially against Michael.

[M2]

Several good points here. But...

1)MJ, whose game in today's NBA environment would resemble his electrifying pre-Triangle offense days, ushered the ISO ball era into the league -- especially once he returned to the NBA after playing baseball, as the overall pace/scoring of the game hadn't yet precipitously declined during the Bulls' early '90's championship seasons -- with the clear-outs that wouldn't/couldn't work well today with the elimination of the illegal defense rule.

2)The main difference between the Bad Boy Pistons and the later contenders that designed their rosters/schemes in the fashion of said Pistons teams (Riley's Knicks and Alonzo Mourning-era Heat, Reggie Miller and the Pacers): The Pistons with Dantley, Zeke, Dumars, Laimbeer and Vinnie Johnson, had considerably more offensive firepower and could function efficiently within the confines of a slower-paced game if need be.

3)Six expansion teams were added from '88 (when the league was arguably at it's peak from a quality of play standpoint) to '95, during a time period in which the worldwide basketball infrastructure/talent was not strong enough to compensate for the dilution of talent, unlike today.


Which is precisely why I don't buy the "scoring is higher today than 1998 (or so) only because of three-point shooting" argument. Scores were plenty high even before the advent of the NBA three point shot. And even once the rule came into play, and it was yet to be emphasized, overall scores were still much higher than '95-'05 or so. You hit the nail on the head with ball movement, and it's also important to note that teams were also much more effective pre-slugfest era with producing solid low-post play within the confines of a faster pace of play. When Moses Malone and Kareem were dominating, the games still moved along at a fast pace while producing both higher scoring and solid defense.

Great stuff. We didn't realize how unready the NBA was for expansion from a talent perspective. The Pistons-without-all-that-flare model was all teams could do. Teams collected physical guys and turned the game into a scrum. Good players stood out because they were the only ones who could do anything. And, like you say, ball movement and general skill were what got lost. Prior to expansion, the ball jumped. And you had guys like Eddie Johnson and Ricky Pierce who could kill you in the mid-range and seemingly lurking on every team. The ball constantly found open guys who could score. Man, I missed that when it was gone.

[Chip R]

I have been playing out the Flu Game / Pizzagate story and there are parts that I struggle with in the way it was told. Ok, even if we accept in the late 90's pizza delivery guys came all the way to the room of a normal person....but Michael Jordan? If you are the hotel, and you have the most famous basketball player in the world and his teammates on the 6th floor, I am thinking while they are there, outsiders are not getting to the 6th floor. Even if the hotel did not have any security in place.....how does someone on his team not meet the delivery guy (or delivery team in this case) in the lobby? Also in the story, it feels like they are trying to make Salt Lake City seem like Little House on the Prairie. I get that they stayed outside of the city, but it was still 10PM outside a metropolitan area. If there was a hotel in the area, I am confident every pizza joint was not closed @ 10PM except 1. They tried to make it seem weird that 4 or 5 guys made the delivery, but I do not find that weird. If I am a 19 year old pizza shop worker, and a delivery request comes in from the hotel that I would guess everyone knows the Bulls are staying at....I am volunteering to go on that run and I assume everyone else that was available would also. Finally, I do not buy into any insinuation that the food was purposely altered or anything.....that is just something that 99.999% of people would not do in my opinion. I would think the shop owner or manager would be more likely to try to ensure the Bulls player thought the pizza was the best in Utah.

I don't care if MJ is ordering a pizza, if I'm a manager of a pizza place, there's no way I'm letting 5 guys deliver it. Don't they have any other customers? Also, why would MJ be using his real name? I don't think it was altered either. Something on the pizza was probably bad and he had a bad reaction too it. I think a lot of that was embellished to make MJ look even more superhuman.

[Chip R]

The Celtics crash under Pitino in every conceivable timeline.

What if he was just the coach and someone competent was GM?

[M2]

What if he was just the coach and someone competent was GM?

The GM would have canned him. As I've heard it, pro players get tired of Pitino's act almost instantly. Mind you, I doubt Pitino would have accepted anything less than total control, since total control seems to be his jam.

[M2]

This documentary really went deep into myth reinforcement in the final episode. Jordan did indeed milk every last ounce of what he had and delivered like the superbeing he was in the final minute of his final Bulls game. Yet he went 15-35 from the fioor with 1 rebound and 1 assist. His teammates went 19-32. MJ crossed the finish line, but his team got him there by burying their shots. There's some serious credit not being given there.

[RichRed]

This documentary really went deep into myth reinforcement in the final episode. Jordan did indeed milk every last ounce of what he had and delivered like the superbeing he was in the final minute of his final Bulls game. Yet he went 15-35 from the fioor with 1 rebound and 1 assist. His teammates went 19-32. MJ crossed the finish line, but his team got him there by burying their shots. There's some serious credit not being given there.

And the seemingly 17-minute slow-mo shot at the end, with Jordan leaving his chair, cigar in hand, walking out of the room. There was a lot of the last episode that was all a bit much.

[Roy Tucker]

Utah pizza guy says the pizza was fine

https://www.si.com/.amp/extra-mustard/2020/05/19/michael-jordan-last-dance-pizza-delivery-craig-fite

I think Jordan liked to make conflict to motivate himself. Sometimes it’s a stretch. Actually, often times. Everyone knew not to piss off MJ but he’d find it somehow.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I think it's more likely that Michael Jordan completely made up being sick than some kid in Utah poisoned a pizza.

[Todd Gack]

This documentary really went deep into myth reinforcement in the final episode. Jordan did indeed milk every last ounce of what he had and delivered like the superbeing he was in the final minute of his final Bulls game. Yet he went 15-35 from the fioor with 1 rebound and 1 assist. His teammates went 19-32. MJ crossed the finish line, but his team got him there by burying their shots. There's some serious credit not being given there.

I mean, the dude made the game winning steal, game winning shot, and scored the last 8 points for the team in a 2 point win. What the hell else do you want? LOL.

[Boston Red]

I think it's more likely that Michael Jordan completely made up being sick

That's always been my working assumption. Or at least that he overstated it.

[M2]

I mean, the dude made the game winning steal, game winning shot, and scored the last 8 points for the team in a 2 point win. What the hell else do you want? LOL.

Yeah, he had a great final minute. Amazing player. Best ever. And he got to do that because his teammates shot 59%.

[Cyclone792]

I'm watching game 6 right now. Love the HD and camera angles.

So many blown opportunities by the Jazz though. A few missed layups and awful turnovers early in the game.

[WVRed]

I'm watching game 6 right now. Love the HD and camera angles.

So many blown opportunities by the Jazz though. A few missed layups and awful turnovers early in the game.

Eh, kinda jumpy for me. Kinda hard retrofitting something into HD from 22 years ago.

Still good for nostalgia sake.

[adkindo]

Something was wrong with Jordan in that game....and there are clearly too many reports of him being evaluated in the locker room for him to be pretending in my opinion....I am just not sure what was the cause, nor do I really doubt it was some bad food since that has happened to everyone I assume and it usually passes in about 24 hours as long as it is just mild...but it can feel like death for hours in my experience. It causes that terrible feeling when it feels like you are having emergency exits from both ends. Always remember....if you are that situation, empty from the top first if possible. ;)

[dubc47834]

I have been playing out the Flu Game / Pizzagate story and there are parts that I struggle with in the way it was told. Ok, even if we accept in the late 90's pizza delivery guys came all the way to the room of a normal person....but Michael Jordan? If you are the hotel, and you have the most famous basketball player in the world and his teammates on the 6th floor, I am thinking while they are there, outsiders are not getting to the 6th floor. Even if the hotel did not have any security in place.....how does someone on his team not meet the delivery guy (or delivery team in this case) in the lobby? Also in the story, it feels like they are trying to make Salt Lake City seem like Little House on the Prairie. I get that they stayed outside of the city, but it was still 10PM outside a metropolitan area. If there was a hotel in the area, I am confident every pizza joint was not closed @ 10PM except 1. They tried to make it seem weird that 4 or 5 guys made the delivery, but I do not find that weird. If I am a 19 year old pizza shop worker, and a delivery request comes in from the hotel that I would guess everyone knows the Bulls are staying at....I am volunteering to go on that run and I assume everyone else that was available would also. Finally, I do not buy into any insinuation that the food was purposely altered or anything.....that is just something that 99.999% of people would not do in my opinion. I would think the shop owner or manager would be more likely to try to ensure the Bulls player thought the pizza was the best in Utah.

I can't remember where I read it at recently, but the whole was debunked.

[Chip R]

Sam Smith believes he was sick but it wasn't food poisoning.

https://awfulannouncing.com/espn/sam-smith-says-michael-jordan-made-up-or-lied-about-several-things-in-the-last-dance-suggests-jordan-had-altitude-sickness-in-flu-game.html

[adkindo]

so now they have a clip of Jordan (from several years ago) claiming he expressly told Rod Thorn he would not play on the '92 Dream Team if Thomas was on the team.....after both he and Thorn just told us it never happened :confused:

[redsfanmia]

so now they have a clip of Jordan (from several years ago) claiming he expressly told Rod Thorn he would not play on the '92 Dream Team if Thomas was on the team.....after both he and Thorn just told us it never happened :confused:

He wasn’t the only one who didn’t like Thomas, Thomas has issues with nearly everyone on the dream team.

[Assembly Hall]

He wasn’t the only one who didn’t like Thomas, Thomas has issues with nearly everyone on the dream team.

Did anyone really like the Detroit Pistons?

[M2]

Did anyone really like the Detroit Pistons?

They overthrew the NBA's balance of power, and they were loaded with memorable players. Everybody loved the Microwave. They had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Aguirre who could torch you. If you weren't a Lakers or Celtics fan, they had underdog appeal. In wrestling terms, they were kind of like a cool heel team. I suspect they'd be remembered fondly if they hadn't become the model for how the whole league was going to play. Now they're the historical end of the thrilling basketball of the Magic-Bird era instead of a cast characters who succeeded with a weird brand of prison yard ball for a brief moment in time.

[adkindo]

They overthrew the NBA's balance of power, and they were loaded with memorable players. Everybody loved the Microwave. They had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Aguirre who could torch you. If you weren't a Lakers or Celtics fan, they had underdog appeal. In wrestling terms, they were kind of like a cool heel team. I suspect they'd be remembered fondly if they hadn't become the model for how the whole league was going to play. Now they're historical end of the thrilling basketball of the Magic-Bird era instead of a cast characters who succeeded with a weird brand of prison yard ball for a brief moment in time.

I am a life long Lakers fan....so I hated the Pistons at the time. I now look back at that team with more appreciation. I feel like Thomas is more often either overrated or underrated compared to accurately evaluated when based on his basketball skills within the context of the era....but I find he is almost always underrated when evaluating him as a leader. His approach was very successful, but it cost him.

[redsfanmia]

They overthrew the NBA's balance of power, and they were loaded with memorable players. Everybody loved the Microwave. They had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Aguirre who could torch you. If you weren't a Lakers or Celtics fan, they had underdog appeal. In wrestling terms, they were kind of like a cool heel team. I suspect they'd be remembered fondly if they hadn't become the model for how the whole league was going to play. Now they're the historical end of the thrilling basketball of the Magic-Bird era instead of a cast characters who succeeded with a weird brand of prison yard ball for a brief moment in time..

I feel like Dumars was a likable and well respected player.

[redsfanmia]

They overthrew the NBA's balance of power, and they were loaded with memorable players. Everybody loved the Microwave. They had Adrian Dantley and then Mark Aguirre who could torch you. If you weren't a Lakers or Celtics fan, they had underdog appeal. In wrestling terms, they were kind of like a cool heel team. I suspect they'd be remembered fondly if they hadn't become the model for how the whole league was going to play. Now they're the historical end of the thrilling basketball of the Magic-Bird era instead of a cast characters who succeeded with a weird brand of prison yard ball for a brief moment in time.

I am now and grew up a Pacers fan, but I rooted for the Twin Towers Rockets as a good team that wasn’t the Lakers, Celtics or Sixers.