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Ron Madden
08-24-2020, 02:44 PM
First Pitch 8:10PM

Reds
1. Joey Votto (L) 1B
2. Nick Castellanos (R) RF
3. Eugenio Suarez (R) 3B
4. Matt Davidson (R) DH
5. Mike Moustakas (L) 2B
6. Phillip Ervin (R) CF
7. Jesse Winker (L) LF
8. Curt Casali (R) C
9. Kyle Farmer (R) SS
SP Trevor Bauer (R)

Brewers
1. Avisail Garcia (R) CF
2. Christian Yelich (L) LF
3. Keston Hiura (R) DH
4. Justin Smoak (S) 1B
5. Ryan Braun (R) RF
6. Omar Narvaez (L) C
7. Luis Urias (R) 2B
8. Eric Sogard (L) 3B
9. Orlando Arcia (R) SS
SP Brett Anderson (L)

NebraskaRed
08-24-2020, 02:45 PM
Still not understanding Votto hitting leadoff.

Jomama
08-24-2020, 02:54 PM
Still not understanding Votto hitting leadoff.

A slow 36 year old batting. 207...what's not to love?

DocRed
08-24-2020, 03:07 PM
Still not understanding Votto hitting leadoff.

Batting first eliminates 1 chance of GIDP a game.

Rolando
08-24-2020, 03:14 PM
Batting first eliminates 1 chance of GIDP a game.

The sad thing is that's the only possible answer that makes any sense. What a child to be a fan lol

mth123
08-24-2020, 03:35 PM
Using all the same guys:

Farmer
Winker
Castellanos
Davidson
Suarez
Moose
Ervin
Votto
Casali

Rolando
08-24-2020, 03:50 PM
If Phillip Ervin has to play then he needs to bat 9th

mth123
08-24-2020, 03:53 PM
If Phillip Ervin has to play then he needs to bat 9th

I was thinking, since he's the one guy with speed, it would make more sense for him to run in front of the bottom of the order than to get thrown out in front of the guys at the top. Stealing should be limited to the bottom half of the batting order. Why take a chance at getting caught in front of the best hitters?

Strikes Out Looking
08-24-2020, 03:59 PM
I haven't read all the Red beat writers in the last few days (I concede I follow them less closely during the season when they manage about 2.5 hits per 9 innings because it makes me rather depressed) but have any of them had any writings on 1. Votto batting leadoff, 2. Are they giving up on Shugo or 3. Senzel's status?

The lack of hits, in my opinion, is a failure to adjust to the shift.

Maybe they'll learn to hit tonight in Milwaukee.

DocRed
08-24-2020, 04:16 PM
I haven't read all the Red beat writers in the last few days (I concede I follow them less closely during the season when they manage about 2.5 hits per 9 innings because it makes me rather depressed) but have any of them had any writings on 1. Votto batting leadoff, 2. Are they giving up on Shugo or 3. Senzel's status?

The lack of hits, in my opinion, is a failure to adjust to the shift.

Maybe they'll learn to hit tonight in Milwaukee.
Check the utility closet at GABP.

klw
08-24-2020, 04:33 PM
Using all the same guys:

Farmer
Winker
Castellanos
Davidson
Suarez
Moose
Ervin
Votto
Casali


Farmer
Votto
Castellanos
Winker
Davidson
Moose
Suarez
Ervin
Casali

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 04:45 PM
Still not understanding Votto hitting leadoff.

He has 2nd best OBP on the team. Seems obvious to me.

NebraskaRed
08-24-2020, 05:22 PM
He has 2nd best OBP on the team. Seems obvious to me.

In theory.

But in practice, not so much.

TexasRedsFan
08-24-2020, 05:32 PM
Using all the same guys:

Farmer
Winker
Castellanos
Davidson
Suarez
Moose
Ervin
Votto
Casali

Agree with your first 3. After that I'd go Moose, Suarez, Davidson, Votto, Casali, Ervin.

Wonderful Monds
08-24-2020, 05:35 PM
In theory.

But in practice, not so much.

It’s also falling quite a bit over the last week or so

texasdave
08-24-2020, 05:46 PM
This team will hit eventually. And they will make the playoffs.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 06:58 PM
He has 2nd best OBP on the team. Seems obvious to me.

I think Iím third on the team in OBP. Not exactly an honor.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2020, 06:59 PM
This team will hit eventually. And they will make the playoffs.

Yes starting tonight. (Thatís what I always say)

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 06:59 PM
I think I’m third on the team in OBP. Not exactly an honor.

Not really the point. He gets on base more than most of the team. You aren’t going to bat Winker leadoff. People keep saying to move him 6th. I don’t really see the point of that at all. At the end of the day, he still gets on base, why wouldn’t you lead him off?

RedlegsFanatic
08-24-2020, 07:05 PM
Man oh man...between Votto choking up to the barrel and mashing those fly balls to left field, to Davidson, Farmer, and Ervin, starting pitchers must flat out shake in their boots when they look down this great Reds lineup. So awesome. David Bell has to be described as nothing but a baseball genius. Love that guy.

Ron Madden
08-24-2020, 07:06 PM
[QUOTE]
Joel Luckhaupt
@jluckhaupt

The 2 runs that Trevor Bauer has given up in his first 4 starts of 2020 have come on solo HR. The only starting pitcher (excluding openers) in at least the last 50 years to only give up runs on solo HR through his first 5 starts of the year was Tom Seaver in 1973 (5 R on 5 HR).[QUOTE]

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 07:10 PM
Man oh man...between Votto choking up to the barrel and mashing those fly balls to left field, to Davidson, Farmer, and Ervin, starting pitchers must flat out shake in their boots when they look down this great Reds lineup. So awesome. David Bell has to be described as nothing but a baseball genius. Love that guy.

I don’t even like Bell, but what would your lineup be with this roster? Nobody is hitting except winker

RedlegsFanatic
08-24-2020, 07:10 PM
This team will hit eventually. And they will make the playoffs.

I hope you’re right...
But I highly doubt u are.
Not with David Bell running the show.
And not without Aquino starting in LF.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 07:14 PM
I hope you¬’re right...
But I highly doubt u are.
Not with David Bell running the show.
And not without Aquino starting in LF.

Aquino being in Prasco is not Bell’s decision. The entire team not hitting is not on the manager. He can’t will them to hit.

Jomama
08-24-2020, 07:48 PM
Aquino being in Prasco is not Bell’s decision. The entire team not hitting is not on the manager. He can’t will them to hit.

But Bell chose his buddy as the hitting coach. 16454

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 07:52 PM
My wife and her children(also mine), are driving me crazy tonight. I am taking Big Klu's advice from the last game thread. I have escaped to my man cave with a bottle of Woodford Reserve. Win or lose, i am just going to relax and watch the game. If you guys could really ramp it up tonight with humorous posts, i would appreciate it.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 07:54 PM
But Bell chose his buddy as the hitting coach. 16454

I’ve been saying for quite awhile nepotism is a big issue with this org and I also do not like Bell. I can’t blame Bell for Joey Votto and Suarez not hitting though, can’t blame Zinter for that either.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 07:54 PM
Not really the point. He gets on base more than most of the team. You aren’t going to bat Winker leadoff. People keep saying to move him 6th. I don’t really see the point of that at all. At the end of the day, he still gets on base, why wouldn’t you lead him off?

His BA and OBP are demonstrably worse when batting leadoff.

Ron Madden
08-24-2020, 07:56 PM
Bobby Nightengale
@nightengalejr
David Bell on Aristides Aquino: “A lot of times, as talented as a guy like Aquino is, there are ups and downs with that. He’s on his way back to getting to where he was, but there’s been a process to get him there.” #Reds

podgejeff_
08-24-2020, 08:00 PM
Yeah...

He has a bit to go before he hits the lofty heights of Josh VanMeter.

reds77
08-24-2020, 08:01 PM
Votto doesn't belong in the leadoff spot.

LeDoux
08-24-2020, 08:07 PM
This team will hit eventually. And they will make the playoffs.

I want to believe this.

Kc61
08-24-2020, 08:08 PM
Votto used to kill lefties, but not recently, so itís a gamble to hit him lead off against a lefty.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 08:10 PM
Votto 1/3 2 BB 2 runs
Castellanos 2/5 2 rbi 1 run
Suarez 1/5 2 rbi, 1 run
Davidson 1/4 HR 2 rbi run
Moose 2/5 rbi 2 runs
Ervin 3/5 2 rbi 1 run
Winker 2/4 rbi run
Casali 1/4 run
Farmer 2/4 2 rbi run

Reds 11
Brewers 4

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:14 PM
At this point why Votto is leading off makes no sense. Though I guess to be fair almost no one on this team hits

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:15 PM
One out single for Castellanos

reds77
08-24-2020, 08:15 PM
Fairly quick inning

podgejeff_
08-24-2020, 08:15 PM
At some point this team should explode on offense and return to the mean from a horrible, last-in-baseball .226 BABIP.

I'm just hoping that point isn't in December.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:15 PM
Suarez grounds into a 6-4-3 DP

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 08:16 PM
Suarez batting 3rd is awful right now

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:16 PM
This is pitiful.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 08:17 PM
Suarez grounds into a 6-4-3 DP

was he going 100% out of the box? I thought he has shown enough speed in the past to beat that out...

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:17 PM
At some point this team should explode on offense and return to the mean from a horrible, last-in-baseball .226 BABIP.

I'm just hoping that point isn't in December.

We are half way through the season at the end of this series. They may be buried by the end of this week if they donít start to hit

EnglishRed
08-24-2020, 08:18 PM
Suarez batting 3rd is awful right now

It's really not working for him at the moment.

Ron Madden
08-24-2020, 08:18 PM
Joel Luckhaupt
@jluckhaupt
The Reds played 6 games last week and Eugenio Suarez (5 hits) was the only player with more than 3 total hits in those 6 games.

BCubb2003
08-24-2020, 08:19 PM
Garcia wasn’t exactly boot-scootin down the line.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:20 PM
Yelich doubles to left

JaxRed
08-24-2020, 08:20 PM
Bauer shaved his head?

klw
08-24-2020, 08:22 PM
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnimatedIgnorantAmphibian-small.gif

Yeah I can't tonight. Not again.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:23 PM
Bauer blows a fastball past Hiura

podgejeff_
08-24-2020, 08:23 PM
Bauer just overpowers Hiura.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 08:23 PM
Bauer just attacks the zone.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:23 PM
His stuff is nasty

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 08:23 PM
Hitting philosophy? Game plan? Lack of ability?

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 08:27 PM
Fox Sports Ohio Hex strikes again. Doesn't matter if it's Thom or TR Jim Day.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:27 PM
Smock singles in a run. 1-0 Brewers

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:27 PM
Aaaaaand ballgame.

reds77
08-24-2020, 08:28 PM
Well, Bauer can't shut them all down forever. Offense better pick him up.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 08:28 PM
Aaaaaand ballgame.

Reds are scoring 11 tonight

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:28 PM
Braun doubles. Game on the line already with e way the Reds hit

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 08:29 PM
"That's how domina.... (CRACK) he's been."

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 08:29 PM
Please locate better Trevor

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 08:31 PM
So, honest question... I thought it has been established repeatedly that batting order really doesn't matter. Why do fans spend so much time complaining about it? At least we are putting Votto there who should have a fantastic OBP (should...). This "speed at leadoff" thing seems so outdated that I am confused by people bringing it up. Seriously, I thought we moved on from that idea with Wily Taveras.

mth123
08-24-2020, 08:34 PM
So, honest question... I thought it has been established repeatedly that batting order really doesn't matter. Why do fans spend so much time complaining about it? At least we are putting Votto there who should have a fantastic OBP (should...). This "speed at leadoff" thing seems so outdated that I am confused by people bringing it up. Seriously, I thought we moved on from that idea with Wily Taveras.

Who is asking for speed at lead-off? Votto has been an automatic out against LHP. He shouldn't even be playing let alone leading off and getting the most PAs.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 08:34 PM
Zinter. We are ok, baseball is hard. That puts my mind at ease.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:35 PM
Leadoff walk to Davidson

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:35 PM
If Davidson can’t deliver, no one will

Anderson knows it, and wants no part of him. Understandable.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:35 PM
Another DP

adkindo
08-24-2020, 08:36 PM
Moustakas has been terrible

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 08:36 PM
this team is dreadful. based on expectations, they are extreme underachievers.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:36 PM
And another DP.

So, so bad.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:36 PM
That was quick Ervin flies out

adkindo
08-24-2020, 08:36 PM
Ervin hitting weak azz fly balls all season

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 08:37 PM
Who is asking for speed at lead-off? Votto has been an automatic out against LHP. He shouldn't even be playing let alone leading off and getting the most PAs.

Votto shouldn't even be playing? We are going to just disregard the HOF player's career from a bad start? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there. Sure, he is in decline. But this would be the first time he has not shown the ability to get on base consistently.

BCubb2003
08-24-2020, 08:43 PM
Zinter. We are ok, baseball is hard. That puts my mind at ease.

“Tell him, Wash.”

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:43 PM
2 Ks for Bauer

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 08:44 PM
Bauer is getting to the point where I don't see the Reds being able to afford him next year.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:44 PM
Nasty stuff. Strikes out the side

EnglishRed
08-24-2020, 08:46 PM
What's Bauer writing on the back of the mound?

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 08:46 PM
Offense may be horrible right now, but I sure do love seeing elite SP for the Reds. So happy a guy like Bauer is able to translate his insane work ethic and passion into results.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 08:46 PM
score some runs

adkindo
08-24-2020, 08:46 PM
Votto shouldn't even be playing? We are going to just disregard the HOF player's career from a bad start? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there. Sure, he is in decline. But this would be the first time he has not shown the ability to get on base consistently.

he was not great at it last year

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:47 PM
What's Bauer writing on the back of the mound?

Hopefully ďPlease send me an offenseĒ

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 08:47 PM
Bauer is getting to the point where I don't see the Reds being able to afford him next year.

This is the most Cincinnati sports fan response to a player doing well ever.

Tom Servo
08-24-2020, 08:47 PM
Remember when Winker was called the most boring Red ever

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 08:49 PM
This is the most Cincinnati sports fan response to a player doing well ever.

just being a realist. If he goes year to year and a large market club throws a 1yr 30+ million offer his way, i don't see the Reds going there. I hope they do, but i just don't see it.

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 08:49 PM
he was not great at it last year

Compared to historic Votto, this is true (one of the greatest career OBP all-time). Compared to the league, he was well above average.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:49 PM
What's Bauer writing on the back of the mound?

It is funny he wrote Buds for his bet he has with Budweiser on the strikeouts

mth123
08-24-2020, 08:50 PM
Votto shouldn't even be playing? We are going to just disregard the HOF player's career from a bad start? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there. Sure, he is in decline. But this would be the first time he has not shown the ability to get on base consistently.

He shouldn't be playing when a LHP is starting. Play Davidson at 1B and Winker at DH. Get Aquino up and stick him in LF. Votto is old and the mileage has accumulated. When a LHP is starting, it's the perfect opportunity to get him some rest without really hurting the team. Wanna lead him off against RHP, OK. Against LHP, sit him.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:50 PM
Votto. Black hole.

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 08:50 PM
No DP this inning. At least they cleared thru Votto's spot to start next inning!

adkindo
08-24-2020, 08:51 PM
Votto. Black hole.

he has been most of the season.....for the first time I cringe when I see he is up to bat in an inning

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 08:52 PM
This is really what we are going to do? Just pile crap on arguably the best hitter the Reds have ever had? Neat. There are so many awful performances thus far this season. Why is Votto, the person who has literally earned every dollar of his contract, the guy we want to crap on? I get it is somewhat in jest, but the lack of respect for an all-time great is pretty ridiculous.

Maybe I am being a stick in the mud, but I have no interest in crapping on Votto when there are plenty of other players not producing who have not paid for themselves.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 08:52 PM
he has been most of the season.....for the first time I cringe when I see he is up to bat in an inning

Been doing it since the 1st half of last season

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 08:53 PM
Votto now 0 for his last 13

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 08:53 PM
Votto shouldn't even be playing? We are going to just disregard the HOF player's career from a bad start? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there. Sure, he is in decline. But this would be the first time he has not shown the ability to get on base consistently.

Votto was bad vs lefties last year...just a .656 OPS

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 08:54 PM
Votto was good along with Catellanos the first series, but the bullpen cost a good start!

mth123
08-24-2020, 08:54 PM
This is really what we are going to do? Just pile crap on arguably the best hitter the Reds have ever had? Neat.

He's absolutely the best hitter the Reds ever had. That doesn't help him in his next PA.

Rolando
08-24-2020, 08:55 PM
This is really what we are going to do? Just pile crap on arguably the best hitter the Reds have ever had? Neat.

Give me a break people just sick of watching the reds not score. He was a great player nobody's questioning. But here's the deal I could give a crap what he did in 2017. He is Beyond criticism

Monster Man
08-24-2020, 08:56 PM
Votto looks incredibly weak at the plate. Everyone thinks batting him lead off is a terrible idea, except our genius manager. Bell seems to have a very stubborn streak when it comes to his bad decision-making.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 08:56 PM
This is really what we are going to do? Just pile crap on arguably the best hitter the Reds have ever had? Neat.

i don't think anyone is saying release him. Move him down in the order. Give him days off against LH pitching. His skills have diminished. He was a great player, one of the best the Reds have had. He isn't that player anymore.

EnglishRed
08-24-2020, 08:56 PM
It is funny he wrote Buds for his bet he has with Budweiser on the strikeouts

Hahaha saw that on twitter the other day. Cincinnati Buds

reds77
08-24-2020, 08:57 PM
This is really what we are going to do? Just pile crap on arguably the best hitter the Reds have ever had? Neat. There are so many awful performances thus far this season. Why is Votto, the person who has literally earned every dollar of his contract, the guy we want to crap on? I get it is somewhat in jest, but the lack of respect for an all-time great is pretty ridiculous.

Maybe I am being a stick in the mud, but I have no interest in crapping on Votto when there are plenty of other players not producing who have not paid for themselves.
He's having a bad year. Discussing it in real time doesn't diminish his past accomplishments.

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 08:59 PM
Votto now 0 for his last 13

Two more hitless ABs to the interstate exit.

- - - Updated - - -

Ballgame.

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 09:00 PM
Fastballs to Smoak on a 3-2 count are not working!

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:00 PM
maybe Bauer should quit goofing off, and figure out how to get Justin Smoak out

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
That is pretty much ball game

Monster Man
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
Reds down 3 which is insurmountable.

TheBigLebowski
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
There’s no more reason to watch this crap. Team is garbage.

podgejeff_
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
So just an unrelated question:

Next year's draft order is based on record this year, right?

RedsFanInMS
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
Well boys, you might as well cut this off. We won't get three more hits, much less score three runs.

kendooo16
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
Maybe if he'd quit playing in the dirt...

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Tom Servo
08-24-2020, 09:01 PM
If only the Reds had a hitter like Justin Smoak

malcontent
08-24-2020, 09:02 PM
i don't think anyone is saying release him. Move him down in the order. Give him days off against LH pitching. His skills have diminished. He was a great player, one of the best the Reds have had. He isn't that player anymore.
Release him? After this year they'll still owe him $82MM. That means he'll be hitting 1, 2, or 3 for the next three years, lol.

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 09:02 PM
He's having a bad year. Discussing it in real time doesn't diminish his past accomplishments.

I get that he is having a bad year. Calling him a black hole and saying he shouldn't even play is just frustrating. I know much of my annoyance is watching Votto in decline. I know I am likely being hypersensitive here. I just don't get how hard people go after Votto. Suarez is in his prime in theory, doesn't have the issue with XBA vs BA due to shifting, etc and he is called out much less frequently. It's a minor issue overall. I don't disagree that there are real questions with his performance. I am not sure there is a clear alternative answer.

TL;DR: I get it. I just want Votto to be great again, and constantly hearing people crap on one of the greatest hitters of this generation just drives me a little crazy despite his obvious issues this past season and a half.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:02 PM
I will not be surprised if even our pitching begins to fall off.....David Bell is a cancer

EnglishRed
08-24-2020, 09:03 PM
So just an unrelated question:

Next year's draft order is based on record this year, right?

I thought it was over two seasons average?

texasdave
08-24-2020, 09:03 PM
Justin smoaked that baseball.

Jomama
08-24-2020, 09:03 PM
Votto shouldn't even be playing? We are going to just disregard the HOF player's career from a bad start? Yeah, I am going to have to disagree there. Sure, he is in decline. But this would be the first time he has not shown the ability to get on base consistently.

Votto will never get into Cooperstown.

Ron Madden
08-24-2020, 09:03 PM
The Farm Dog can play

Alabama Red
08-24-2020, 09:04 PM
Release him? They still owe him $82MM. That means he'll be hitting 1, 2, or 3 for the next three years, lol.
Honestly if players had performed how we expected he should be 6-7 this year. At some point he’s got to move out of the top of the order.

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 09:04 PM
2nd time thrue 2-9 spots for the Reds may be the ticket to success.

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 09:04 PM
If only the Reds had a hitter like Justin Smoak

Or any of the hapless Pirates, who scored 24 runs in a 3-game sweep of these clowns the last three days.

Monster Man
08-24-2020, 09:05 PM
I get that he is having a bad year. Calling him a black hole and saying he shouldn't even play is just frustrating. I know much of annoyance is watching Votto in decline. I know I am likely being hypersensitive here. I just don't get how hard people go after Votto. Suarez is in his prime in theory, doesn't have the issue with XBA vs BA due to shifting, etc and he is called out much less frequently. It's a minor issue overall. I don't disagree that there are real questions with his performance. I am not sure there is a clear alternative answer.

TL;DR: I get it. I just want Votto to be great again, and constantly hearing people crap on one of the greatest hitters of this generation just drives me a little crazy despite his obvious issues this past season and a half.

Cursh14
08-24-2020, 09:05 PM
maybe Bauer should quit goofing off, and figure out how to get Justin Smoak out

I am beginning to think I should just avoid game threads. You are really going to complain about Bauer now? How many SP go an entire season with a 0.6 ERA (hint... the answer is none).

podgejeff_
08-24-2020, 09:05 PM
Votto will never get into Cooperstown.

Even if he doesn't get in via the writers vote, you KNOW a veteran's committee will vote him in.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:05 PM
I get that he is having a bad year. Calling him a black hole and saying he shouldn't even play is just frustrating. I know much of annoyance is watching Votto in decline. I know I am likely being hypersensitive here. I just don't get how hard people go after Votto. Suarez is in his prime in theory, doesn't have the issue with XBA vs BA due to shifting, etc and he is called out much less frequently. It's a minor issue overall. I don't disagree that there are real questions with his performance. I am not sure there is a clear alternative answer.

TL;DR: I get it. I just want Votto to be great again, and constantly hearing people crap on one of the greatest hitters of this generation just drives me a little crazy despite his obvious issues this past season and a half.

I agree with you. Just think how Votto feels. I see him as a man of immense pride. I imagine it is eating him up inside.

Alabama Red
08-24-2020, 09:05 PM
Votto will never get into Cooperstown.

He needed a couple of more good years after 2017 and he didn’t get them.

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:05 PM
ugg, down 3-0

Since Mr Anderson is pitching for the Brewers, the Reds should have used Agent Smith as the DH.

VR
08-24-2020, 09:06 PM
.499 OPS for Joey over the last 15 games. Uffda.


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Monster Man
08-24-2020, 09:06 PM
Votto is almost 37 years old, not going to be great again.

Ron Madden
08-24-2020, 09:07 PM
I'm out of the game thread for tonight, going to watch the rest of the game in peace.


God I wish RedsZone still had the Sundeck

podgejeff_
08-24-2020, 09:07 PM
Castellanos busting it up the line and makes something happen.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:07 PM
dumpster fires refer to really bad things as "2020 reds."

Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:07 PM
Brewers 2-6 at home so youíd figure they will win some at home soon.

Would like to see Reds take this series but wonít happen the way they are playing.

Tom Servo
08-24-2020, 09:07 PM
Holy hell man

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:08 PM
Votto is almost 37 years old, not going to be great again.

Getting old sucks. I need cheater glasses, but i just keep taking mine off and putting the back on.

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 09:08 PM
Hit it bad, get on, hit it good, DP!

Red Raindog
08-24-2020, 09:08 PM
Fyi
The record for double plays in a game is 7


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reds77
08-24-2020, 09:09 PM
The Farm Dog can play

That was a sweet play.

Jomama
08-24-2020, 09:09 PM
He needed a couple of more good years after 2017 and he didnít get them.

Agreed. And he never had the opportunity to have a big post season.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 09:10 PM
This team is awful. We were all expecting a playoff team and the Reds have the
3rd worst record in the NL and nothing is improving.

JCM11
08-24-2020, 09:11 PM
This team has no fire or energy at all. We might as well just can Bell, and see if that wakes anyone up.

UPRedsFan
08-24-2020, 09:11 PM
Hit it bad, get on, hit it good, DP!

Are the Reds tipping their hits? The defense always seems to know right where theyíre going to hit it.

Wonderful Monds
08-24-2020, 09:11 PM
So I get there are injuries and covid is screwing with us, but this is still mostly the lineup we were going to roll with this season and this team still looks completely lost out there. Not super encouraging.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:11 PM
Fyi
The record for double plays in a game is 7


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reds allowed a terrible pitcher for the tigers to set the all-time MLB record for most consecutive strikeouts by a relief pitcher (and just 1 off tom seaver's record for most ever by any pitcher).

i would not sell this team short when it comes to dubious feats. i think they can shatter this most GIDP record. they have it in them.

BCubb2003
08-24-2020, 09:11 PM
Fyi
The record for double plays in a game is 7


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It takes a half-way decent offense to have that many double plays.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:11 PM
Iíve said the same thing about Suarez all season. Iím done saying it. Hopefully he wonít continue to be stubborn to what heís refusing to do....but not looking good.

Monster Man
08-24-2020, 09:12 PM
Fire Bell! This isn’t working!

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:12 PM
4-0.

hey, we'll get 'em in 2021. for sure. just need to "tweak" a few things.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:13 PM
remember how locked in Bauer was in his other starts....then he is acting goofy today and gets rocked....

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:13 PM
Ok...Brewers have their 4....now time for the Reds 11

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:14 PM
remember how locked in Bauer was in his other starts....then he is acting goofy today and gets rocked....

i don't even blame him. once the brewers scored 1 run he probably figured he was screwed given this pathetic offense. need to throw a shutout if you want to win if you're a reds' pitcher in 2020.

Jomama
08-24-2020, 09:15 PM
This team will hit eventually. And they will make the playoffs.

Starting tomorrow night...right?

mth123
08-24-2020, 09:15 PM
So I get there are injuries and covid is screwing with us, but this is still mostly the lineup we were going to roll with this season and this team still looks completely lost out there. Not super encouraging.

The team's two biggest stars aren't hitting at all. The big international acquisition is proving why career minor leaguers excel in Japan, the big lefty bat they signed has missed half the year, the guy who was the jewel of the system and tanking rebuild is out with Covid and the guy who lit a fire last year can't even get on the roster.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:16 PM
Poor location tonight by Bauer

Haircut bad choice maybe [emoji16]

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:16 PM
i don't even blame him. once the brewers scored 1 run he probably figured he was screwed given this pathetic offense. need to throw a shutout if you want to win if you're a reds' pitcher in 2020.

maybe he figures he could lower his price to get moved this week

Jomama
08-24-2020, 09:16 PM
Votto 1/3 2 BB 2 runs
Castellanos 2/5 2 rbi 1 run
Suarez 1/5 2 rbi, 1 run
Davidson 1/4 HR 2 rbi run
Moose 2/5 rbi 2 runs
Ervin 3/5 2 rbi 1 run
Winker 2/4 rbi run
Casali 1/4 run
Farmer 2/4 2 rbi run

Reds 11
Brewers 4

It's gonna be fun watching the Reds reel off 11 straight runs here.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:17 PM
Brewers having awfully good swings on most everything....

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:17 PM
The team's two biggest stars aren't hitting at all. The big international acquisition is proving why career minor leaguers excel in Japan, the big lefty bat they signed has missed half the year, the guy who was the jewel of the system and tanking rebuild is out with Covid and the guy who lit a fire last year can't even get on the roster.

This pretty much sums it up.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:19 PM
Moustakas have been beyond bad for weeks

Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:20 PM
I’ve always believed that pitching will eventually suffer when the team doesn’t score.

Just puts too much pressure on the pitching to win without support.

It’s distracting and causes guys to try to be too perfect.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:20 PM
I think Bell put everyone on a vegetarian diet...or maybe having everyone fast?

TexasRedsFan
08-24-2020, 09:21 PM
This team will hit eventually. And they will make the playoffs.

Yes they will. The question is which decade.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:21 PM
One to many people in the booth tonight.

Reds Fanatic
08-24-2020, 09:22 PM
It's gonna be fun watching the Reds reel off 11 straight runs here.

I am not sure the Reds will score 11 runs this week

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:22 PM
I think Bell put everyone on a vegetarian diet...or maybe having everyone fast?

I think heís having most everyone slow.

Monster Man
08-24-2020, 09:22 PM
This team grounds out into shifts more than any team that I’ve ever seen.

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:24 PM
Brewers 2-6 at home so youíd figure they will win some at home soon.

Would like to see Reds take this series but wonít happen the way they are playing.

I thought the Reds would have a good chance of taking 3 of 4, with Bauer, Castillo and Gray scheduled.
Sigh, hopefully we can at least split and tread water.

RedForLife
08-24-2020, 09:25 PM
Is there a stat for the team with the most weakly hit ground ball outs? If there is I'm sure we are leading the league in that category.

MrRedSkull
08-24-2020, 09:25 PM
I get that he is having a bad year. Calling him a black hole and saying he shouldn't even play is just frustrating. I know much of my annoyance is watching Votto in decline. I know I am likely being hypersensitive here. I just don't get how hard people go after Votto. Suarez is in his prime in theory, doesn't have the issue with XBA vs BA due to shifting, etc and he is called out much less frequently. It's a minor issue overall. I don't disagree that there are real questions with his performance. I am not sure there is a clear alternative answer.


TL;DR: I get it. I just want Votto to be great again, and constantly hearing people crap on one of the greatest hitters of this generation just drives me a little crazy despite his obvious issues this past season and a half.

Man, I want Votto to be good again too but I donít think itís gonna happen. His decline didnít happen overnight. The last two seasons (2018 & 2019) he only hit around.270 & had 27 HR & 114 RBI COMBINED. He wasnít even getting more 2Bs to offset the lack of power & run production. Heís been a great Red but personally I donít think heís done enough to be in Cooperstown & think heís been slightly overrated. He shouldnít go in if Dale Murphyís career wasnít good enough. But, Votto can still contribute. He just has no business hitting at the top of the order right now. Nothing wrong with moving him to 7th til (if) he starts seeing the ball better. Iíve always liked him & donít enjoy criticizing him. Itís just reality. And, Iíd love nothing more than for him to make me look like an idiot & bounce back. But, in a 60 game season managed by David Bell they just canít afford to leave him at the top of the order & wait to see if he gets hot.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:25 PM
put a manager in that dugout tomorrow that demands effort and holds players accountable.....this team finishes over .500......if we keep Bell and his guys in the dugout, we will continue to get explanations like "baseball is hard" and not sniff the postseason...

Alabama Red
08-24-2020, 09:25 PM
I just can’t believe how bad this offense is. JV, ES, and MM have been bad. I thought NS would have improved this year but he can’t stay on the field. The other reserve outfielders have been awful and throw in TB and it’s a mess. The only 2 that have performed are NC and NW and both of them have been inconsistent. I keep thinking it will get better but at some point these losses are going to be impossible to overcome.

Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:26 PM
I thought the Reds would have a good chance of taking 3 of 4, with Bauer, Castillo and Gray scheduled.
Sigh, hopefully we can at least split and tread water.

Treading water is only a good strategy when you are above water.

Rolando
08-24-2020, 09:29 PM
put a manager in that dugout tomorrow that demands effort and holds players accountable.....this team finishes over .500......if we keep Bell and his guys in the dugout, we will continue to get explanations like "baseball is hard" and not sniff the postseason...
Yeah hiring a manager who tells them to quit hitting into double plays

Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:30 PM
put a manager in that dugout tomorrow that demands effort and holds players accountable.....this team finishes over .500......if we keep Bell and his guys in the dugout, we will continue to get explanations like "baseball is hard" and not sniff the postseason...

Which guys are not giving effort?

NebraskaRed
08-24-2020, 09:30 PM
I look forward to comments after they game about how they keep having to do what they've been doing and the results will somehow be different some day.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:31 PM
Ok...enjoy the upcoming runs, he we come!

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:31 PM
Red's win expectancy, down 4-0 at the start of the 6th: 6.49% :(

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:32 PM
Treading water is only a good strategy when you are above water.

yea, I know, I just want to keep up the illusion that we still have a chance.
We needed to take 3 of 4 against the Brewers, it's not going to get any easier until we hit the Pirates.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:33 PM
casali big fly. 4-1.

The Operator
08-24-2020, 09:34 PM
Jim just talked about “turning a trick” on Brett Anderson.

TMI, Jim...

BCubb2003
08-24-2020, 09:34 PM
There’s the run for Bauer.

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 09:34 PM
Team Solo HR.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:34 PM
1 down, 10 to go

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:35 PM
casalli's HR boosts our win expectancy to a little over 11% :lol:

VR
08-24-2020, 09:35 PM
If ittwernk for homeruns, weíd have no runs at all. #heehaw


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Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:35 PM
Casali made an effort.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:35 PM
I know it may not matter in the win/loss record, but i miss a guy like Puig. You could see how teammates reacted to that type of player. Give me someone you hate on another team, but love as a teammate.

Rantly
08-24-2020, 09:35 PM
One to many people in the booth tonight.

I donít mind it.

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 09:36 PM
Followed, of course, by the next guy trying to do the same.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:36 PM
votto tagged that for his standards these days, looked like it might be an oppage HR or at least a double ... didn't even reach the warning track.

he's washed up. so sad to see it.

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 09:36 PM
Next stop, Interstate 99.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:37 PM
I think Chris is saying if the team could just have a trip to Hooters, everything would be fine.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 09:37 PM
Welsh, Day, and LeCure are trying so hard to not just say “these guys need to get laid.”

Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:37 PM
At least Reds elevated the ball that inning. Maybe some line drives are coming.

RedlegsFanatic
08-24-2020, 09:39 PM
Votto needs to choke up a little more.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 09:39 PM
If Votto, Suarez, and Barnhart could just go to a Gin Blossoms concert they would be hitting the cover off the ball.

The Operator
08-24-2020, 09:40 PM
Welsh, Day, and LeCure are trying so hard to not just say ďthese guys need to get laid.Ē

Donít we all...

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:41 PM
I think Chris is saying if the team could just have a trip to Hooters, everything would be fine.

If I was driving the buss, I would leave them there

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:41 PM
I donít mind it.
I think it was just me, staring to enjoy the back and forth banter also.

Alabama Red
08-24-2020, 09:42 PM
Hard to believe the Reds have had a losing record every year of Votto’s extended contract.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 09:42 PM
I like Jim Day soooooooo much more than Thom. I’ll say it. His home run call needs work but I think he’s pretty good overall.

- - - Updated - - -

LeCure is good too.

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:44 PM
I like Jim Day soooooooo much more than Thom. I’ll say it. His home run call needs work but I think he’s pretty good overall.

- - - Updated - - -

LeCure is good too.

And they seem to know when the mic is live.

NebraskaRed
08-24-2020, 09:45 PM
And they seem to know when the mic is live.

I didn't care for him too much at first, but LeCure is growing on me.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:45 PM
yeah, such a "lighter" vibe amongst the broadcasting crew with thom outta there. even during a 4-1 drubbing that feels worse than the score indicates.

day and welsh have good chemistry, and lecure is the kind of dude that would get along with anyone.

- - - Updated - - -

nice play geno.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 09:45 PM
I bet Bauer just absolutely loves anime.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:46 PM
Nice play Suarez

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:46 PM
And they seem to know when the mic is live.

the "mic is live" capital of the world!

- - - Updated - - -


I bet Bauer just absolutely loves anime.

are you trippin again?

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:47 PM
96 pitches for bauer. is he done for the night?

Roy Tucker
08-24-2020, 09:48 PM
Lots of lobbying for a job going on.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:48 PM
No double plays...letís chip away

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:49 PM
No double plays...let’s chip away

reds be like: "ok, you don't want any double plays, we just won't get on base at all. jokes on you!"

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:50 PM
geno big fly!

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:50 PM
Suarez showing signs of life lately :) HR

powersackers
08-24-2020, 09:51 PM
I truly believe you could fly in the entire lineup at Prasco and they'd out hit these Reds hitters. They are lost in their own heads Maybe their approach, maybe they aren't practicing good opponent study habits, their pitch recognition is terrible and just about anything hitting related is "off". Baseball is hard, but it's not THIS hard.

As I type, Suarez homers
Lol.

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The Operator
08-24-2020, 09:51 PM
Geno!

4-2

Roy Tucker
08-24-2020, 09:51 PM
Suarez reached for it but lifted it out to CF. Like seeing this.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:53 PM
Suarez reached for it but lifted it out to CF. Like seeing this.

he crushed that ball

Rantly
08-24-2020, 09:53 PM
I think it was just me, staring to enjoy the back and forth banter also.

Definitely room for 3 in the booth with Thom gone...quite a bit more airtime available.

TexasRedsFan
08-24-2020, 09:53 PM
I know it may not matter in the win/loss record, but i miss a guy like Puig. You could see how teammates reacted to that type of player. Give me someone you hate on another team, but love as a teammate.

I've been thinking about Puig too and if the Reds should consider him again. His price would probably be low at this point. He can be a streaky hitter too, but when he got hot last year, it seemed to lift the whole team. Surely he'd much less of a roster waste than Philip Ervin.

RedlegsFanatic
08-24-2020, 09:53 PM
Ehyohanio starting to come around?

Big Klu
08-24-2020, 09:55 PM
Congratulations to Eugenio Suarez, who has passed Lee May for 18th place on the Reds all-time home run list.

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
3. Joey Votto - 287
5. Adam Dunn - 270
6. Ted Kluszewski - 251
7. George Foster - 244
8. Jay Bruce - 233
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
10. Eric Davis - 203
11. Barry Larkin - 198
12. Brandon Phillips - 191
13. Vada Pinson - 186
14. Wally Post - 172
15. Gus Bell - 160
16. Joe Morgan - 152
16. Pete Rose - 152
18. Eugenio Suarez - 148
19. Lee May - 147
20. Dan Driessen - 133
21. Reggie Sanders - 125
22. Ernie Lombardi - 120
23. Sean Casey - 118
24. Frank McCormick - 110
25. Todd Frazier - 108
26. Dave Parker - 107
27. Chris Sabo - 104
28. Dave Concepcion - 101

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:55 PM
Suarez reached for it but lifted it out to CF. Like seeing this.

But he didnít pull it...the straight away swing and the oppo is where he needs to be way more often

Bunting Bad
08-24-2020, 09:55 PM
Lots of lobbying for a job going on.

I think Thom's spot will go to Phil Castellini. The conversation will go something like this. Dad, Dick got to try something he wasn't qualified for, why can't I?

Roy Tucker
08-24-2020, 09:55 PM
I’d like to see Moustakas get his mojo rising.

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 09:56 PM
Bell didn't put Payton in to PH? Maybe he's smartening up, leaving Davidson for a possible later match-up with Hader.

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:56 PM
moose and shogo have been busts so far.

Roy Tucker
08-24-2020, 09:57 PM
But he didn’t pull it...the straight away swing and the oppo is where he needs to be way more often

Yep. Trust his swing and natural power.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:57 PM
Moustakas still sucks

RedsBrick
08-24-2020, 09:57 PM
Just able to get connected with the game. The current best hitter on the team is batting 7-hole tonight?

REDREAD
08-24-2020, 09:57 PM
Interesting that Ervin gets to hit against a right handed reliever. At least Bell is trying something different.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 09:58 PM
Just able to get connected with the game. The current best hitter on the team is batting 7-hole tonight?

Yes

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 09:58 PM
reds massively overpaid for moose. $16M per for 4 years. at least shogo is "only" making $7M per year over 3 years.

imagine moose 3 years from now. woof.

this organization will never learn. they should take notes from the indians on how to run a small market franchise.

Kc61
08-24-2020, 09:59 PM
Interesting that Ervin gets to hit against a right handed reliever. At least Bell is trying something different.

Closer Hader is a lefty, Bell is leaving his RHHs n the game just in case.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 09:59 PM
but Aquino can't do better than that?

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 09:59 PM
Just able to get connected with the game. The current best hitter on the team is batting 7-hole tonight?

Lefty starter.

RedsBrick
08-24-2020, 09:59 PM
Yes

Thanks for the confirmation.

adkindo
08-24-2020, 10:00 PM
reds massively overpaid for moose. $16M per for 4 years. at least shogo is "only" making $7M per year over 3 years.

imagine moose 3 years from now. woof.

there is a chance Moustakas is in the beginning of a sharp career decline

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 10:00 PM
Interesting that Ervin gets to hit against a right handed reliever. At least Bell is trying something different.

Hit him other night in a 9 pitch AB vs that Royals dude throwing 102 mph.

His swing looks long to me...not as compact.

Heís about done getting any chances though. He may not get 5 more hits as a Reds player

BluegrassRedleg
08-24-2020, 10:00 PM
Congratulations to Eugenio Suarez, who has passed Lee May for 18th place on the Reds all-time home run list.

Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds 100-Home Run Club
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
3. Joey Votto - 287
5. Adam Dunn - 270
6. Ted Kluszewski - 251
7. George Foster - 244
8. Jay Bruce - 233
9. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 210
10. Eric Davis - 203
11. Barry Larkin - 198
12. Brandon Phillips - 191
13. Vada Pinson - 186
14. Wally Post - 172
15. Gus Bell - 160
16. Joe Morgan - 152
16. Pete Rose - 152
18. Eugenio Suarez - 148
19. Lee May - 147
20. Dan Driessen - 133
21. Reggie Sanders - 125
22. Ernie Lombardi - 120
23. Sean Casey - 118
24. Frank McCormick - 110
25. Todd Frazier - 108
26. Dave Parker - 107
27. Chris Sabo - 104
28. Dave Concepcion - 101

We stink, but I love having Big Klu's Big HR Board back. :beerme:

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 10:01 PM
Ervin is awful.

One bright side of this season, and I hope the FO is paying attention: we are seeing players like Ervin and Van Meter have absolutely no place on a big league rosters. These dudes should be thanking their lucky stars the reds were foolish enough to give them a chance at this level. I doubt any other organization would have.

Kc61
08-24-2020, 10:01 PM
reds massively overpaid for moose. $16M per for 4 years. at least shogo is "only" making $7M per year over 3 years.

imagine moose 3 years from now. woof.

this organization will never learn. they should take notes from the indians on how to run a small market franchise.

Give Moustakas a chance. He was hurt and may have been rushed back.

NebraskaRed
08-24-2020, 10:02 PM
Devin Williams seems to be the best thing the Brewers have in their bullpen other than Hader.

RedTeamGo!
08-24-2020, 10:02 PM
I don’t think Moustakas is healthy.

Kc61
08-24-2020, 10:03 PM
Ervin is awful.

One bright side of this season, and I hope the FO is paying attention: we are seeing players like Ervin and Van Meter have absolutely no place on a big league rosters. These dudes should be thanking their lucky stars the reds were foolish enough to give them a chance at this level. I doubt any other organization would have.

It’s the give and take of spending. At some point it stopped, and Reds just went with 2019 guys. That was the approach to the pen as well, along with a few inexpensive pickups.

RedsBrick
08-24-2020, 10:03 PM
Lefty starter.

He's .294 vs lefties this year. Votto's .150. If Bell's going to use analytics, he should probably be consistent.

Ironman92
08-24-2020, 10:04 PM
1 more batter for Bauer

JFLegal
08-24-2020, 10:04 PM
Give Moustakas a chance. He was hurt and may have been rushed back.

Kc, the problem is the reds do not learn from their cadre of mistakes. no other small market team in MLB invests as much money as the reds in veteran players who are past their prime. or at the very least, at the very end of their prime when you know most of the contract will be outdated and heavily in favor of the player.

mhs95_06
08-24-2020, 10:06 PM
A good catch and tag might have got the OS.