Bob Castellini: “If we have an opportunity to improve the bullpen, we will."

[Ron Madden]

Bobby Nightengale @nightengalejr
#Reds owner Bob Castellini told Paul Dougherty of the Enquirer today: “If we have an opportunity to improve the bullpen, we will."

[redsfan9988]

By "opportunity," I'm sure he means "find a reliever for free."

[NebraskaRed]

That's just a prelude to "we tried but ultimately couldn't finish any deals"

[LARKIN]

They should be hammered on the Iglesias and Bradley situations.

[Kc61]

Reds will add a reliever. Their pattern is to try and avoid too much criticism and the tone of articles, fans, pretty negative right now. The question is whether it will be a token gesture or meaningful.

[M2]

But Bob, the opportunity to trade for a reliever was inside you all along.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l46CwNmalDZUHJE5y/giphy.gif

[Kinsm]

"We've just come to a point where we're not going to lose anymore,"

[RedTeamGo!]

Lol **** outta here. Talk is cheap.

[Ron Madden]

Charlie Goldsmith
@CharlieG__
.
@EnquirerDoc
spoke with Reds owner Bob Castellini and GM Nick Krall.

Castellini said, "If we have an opportunity to improve the bullpen, we will.”

Krall: "Bob mentioned that if we need something, come and ask him, he’s open to it.”

[NebraskaRed]

"If we need something"

*checks bullpen numbers*

Kinda maybe think they need something!

[WildcatFan]

I’d throw tomatoes at him if I wasn’t afraid he’d make a buck off em.

[757690]

He is on the record saying that the Reds have extra payroll space from their failed attempt to get a SS, and that money is intended to be used to improve the team mid season if needed.

[RedTeamGo!]

Krall sucks too:


Right now, we’ve got a lot of guys who are injured, both in Triple-A and the big leagues,” Reds general manager Nick Krall said. “We’re trying to get healthy first. Once we get healthy, we’ll figure out how to best go from there.”

[Kc61]

He is on the record saying that the Reds have extra payroll space from their failed attempt to get a SS, and that money is intended to be used to improve the team mid season if needed.

Not denying it, but I’ve never seen that statement by the Reds.

I’ve seen RedsZone posters suggest it. But I’ve never seen Reds tie any “shortstop money” to potential mid-season acquisitions. Frankly, I’ve not seen Reds say there’s “extra payroll” of any kind for future acquisitions this season.

I did hear Bob’s interview when he said they created a financial reserve, from payroll savings, due to concerns of unexpected future COVID impacts. And I saw Bob’s/Nick’s comments today which don’t discuss available shortstop money.

[757690]

Not denying it but I’ve never seen that quote.

I have seen RedsZone posters suggest it. But I’ve never seen the Reds tie any “shortstop money” into potential mid-season acquisitions. Frankly, I’ve never seen Reds say they have “extra payroll” of any kind for future spending on players this season.

I did hear Bob’s interview when he said they created a financial reserve, from payroll savings, due to concerns of unexpected future COVID impacts.

Please direct me, I’m interested to see it. Would be nice if such a fund exists for player acquisitions.

I think that is what I was talking about. Maybe I heard it wrong, it was a podcast or something, but I’m pretty sure he said it was meant for improvements mid season if necessary. He was talking about not getting a SS and said that because they didn’t, they now have a reserve to spend later.

[westofyou]

“If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"

[Kc61]

I think that is what I was talking about. Maybe I heard it wrong, it was a podcast or something, but I’m pretty sure he said it was meant for improvements mid season if necessary. He was talking about not getting a SS and said that because they didn’t, they now have a reserve to spend later.

The reserve was to offset future COVID costs/losses.

One might surmise that if it’s not needed for COVID, it could go to new players.

But I don’t recall anything about shorstop money. If Reds had a fund for a shortstop, they’d would have a shortstop. At least Jonathan Villar, who signed for $3.55 million with Mets.

[Tony Cloninger]

Where’s the Simpsons meme of Troy McClure going into their creators office and being told. Get outta my office! With a gun being pointed at him. That’s your answer Krall. You should have been in his office by the end of April.

[757690]

The reserve was to offset future COVID costs/losses.

One might surmise that if it’s not needed for COVID, it could go to new players.

But I don’t recall anything about shorstop money. If Reds had a fund for a shortstop, they’d would have a shortstop. At least Jonathan Villar, who signed for $3.55 million with Mets.

I think we are talking about something different, then. I did not hear anything about offsetting Covid costs.

They made Villar an offer, a good enough one for reports coming out that he signed with the Reds. Castellini was talking about how the Reds made offers to players and just lost out on them. But it gave them this extra money that they could use to improve the team.

Unless that was all a dream, that is what I heard.

[Kc61]

I think we are talking about something different, then. I did not hear anything about offsetting Covid costs.

They made Villar an offer, a good enough one for reports coming out that he signed with the Reds. Castellini was talking about how the Reds made offers to players and just lost out on them. But it gave them this extra money that they could use to improve the team.

Unless that was all a dream, that is what I heard.

I’ve not heard that, certainly possible.

But Reds lost out to a $3.55 bid for Villar who took a bench job with the Mets. Reds offer couldn’t have been very much. Doesn’t tell me they have meaningful dollars to spend.

It’s all like “reallocating resources”. Vague suggestions. Reds will probably try to calm the fans by adding something.

[757690]

I’ve not heard that, certainly possible.

But Reds lost out to a $3.55 bid for Villar who took a bench job with the Mets. Reds offer couldn’t have been very much. Doesn’t tell me they have meaningful dollars to spend.

It’s all like “reallocating resources”. Vague suggestions. Reds will probably try to calm the fans by adding something. But their actions don’t indicate anything very meaningful.

They could have offered more to other players, the ones that’s signed for over $10M. They were rumored to have been in the running for nearly every free agent SS this off season.

I do agree that they probably won’t add much this deadline. But not for lack of trying. Every team is looking for relievers, it will be a high stakes bidding war. I can’t see the Reds winnning any of those.

[Wonderful Monds]

Krall sucks too:

Right now, we’ve got a lot of guys who are injured, both in Triple-A and the big leagues,” Reds general manager Nick Krall said. “We’re trying to get healthy first. Once we get healthy, we’ll figure out how to best go from there.”



Ah well I’m sure it’ll be much clearer once Lorenzen and Antone are healthy whether we still need Ashton Goudeau or Josh Osich or not.

[Kc61]

They could have offered more to other players, the ones that’s signed for over $10M. They were rumored to have been in the running for nearly every free agent SS this off season.

I do agree that they probably won’t add much this deadline. But not for lack of trying. Every team is looking for relievers, it will be a high stakes bidding war. I can’t see the Reds winnning any of those.

Reds highest guarantee to a reliever this year was $1.5 million. I doubt they were in the $10 million ballpark to any player.

As for this year, the Reds will try to add relievers but in the end, either you get help or you don’t. Hope they do.

[M2]

Man, $10M would have bought a shiny Taijuan Walker.

[757690]

Reds highest guarantee to a reliever this year was $1.5 million. I doubt they were in the $10 million ballpark to any player.

As for this year, the Reds will “try” to add relievers but in the end, either you get help or you don’t.

One thing to remember is that they aren’t paying $10M to a guy with a $10M contract. Around $6M will already have been paid by their current team, so it just would be around $4M the Reds would owe. I doubt they go after a $10M guy, but a $5M guys would just cost $2M.

They did add Bradley last year and his $4M contract. I could see something similar this year, if they can find the right deal.

[Kc61]

One thing to remember is that they aren’t paying $10M to a guy with a $10M contract. Around $6M will already have been paid by their current team, so it just would be around $4M the Reds would owe. I doubt they go after a $10M guy, but a $5M guys would just cost $2M.

They did add Bradley last year and his $4M contract. I could see something similar this year, if they can find the right deal.

Not disagreeing.

I doubt Reds have a near $10 million “shorstop fund” available for deadline trades. But they might spend a few million on a pro rata bullpen salary or even two. Possible, sure. I do think Reds will do something.

[757690]

Not disagreeing.

I doubt Reds have a near $10 million “shorstop fund” sitting around for deadline trades. But they might spend a few million on a pro rata reliever salary, sure.

I’ve been on the record forever that I never believe the owners when they say the payroll is set so that they break even. I believe they make up all these numbers. So no matter what Castellini said about what money they have, or tells us later, it’s a moving target based on what they want to do.

[BluegrassRedleg]

<<<Insert Tanner Boyle comment for Bob Castellini>>>

[KronoRed]

Tune in next time for

"If the Fans show us they care by coming out, we'll see about improving the team"

[GAC]

One needs to understand the fine print that goes with "if we have the opportunity", and what one's definition of the word "if" is. LOL

[The Operator]

Where’s the Simpsons meme of Troy McClure going into their creators office and being told. Get outta my office! With a gun being pointed at him. That’s your answer Krall. You should have been in his office by the end of April.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/26tk0vOGaYrNfxzJ6/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bq9rdwk1t6aafthnlj9hr0zk79hv4r lsap74kujjo&rid=200w.gif

[The Operator]

One needs to understand the fine print that goes with "if we have the opportunity", and what one's definition of the word "if" is. LOL

“If The Reds have the opportunity to improve the bullpen, while also spending less than zero dollars to do so, and also giving up zero players of any value, then sure, yea, we might consider that. Otherwise, enjoy your complimentary Sean Doolittle and try not to make a fuss.”

[JFLegal]

what a tool. how many games is this bullpen going to blow before he "addresses it"? how many games will the reds be back by then?

this ownership group and front office is pathetic. reds have at least 5-6 guys in their pen that have no business being in MLB. the "throw stuff against the wall and hope some of it sticks" approach has failed miserably.

[Coopdaddy67]

I refuse to blame the GM when I know the problem is entirely Castellini. It's like blaming Marvin Lewis/Duke Tobin for not going out and signing marquee free agents instead of Mike Brown.

It's not like Krall can come out and say "hey, I'd love to add bullpen arms, but my boss won't give me any money to get it done".

Castellini's quote says it all. If he planned to give the organization more money to add bullpen talent, he'd be direct.

[JFLegal]

“If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?"

"we don't need no ... competent relievers" *GUITAR*

[membengal]

Ah, well, nevertheless.

[RedTeamGo!]

I refuse to blame the GM when I know the problem is entirely Castellini. It's like blaming Marvin Lewis/Duke Tobin for not going out and signing marquee free agents instead of Mike Brown.

It's not like Krall can come out and say "hey, I'd love to add bullpen arms, but my boss won't give me any money to get it done".

Castellini's quote says it all. If he planned to give the organization more money to add bullpen talent, he'd be direct.

Krall deserves some blame. More than one person can be at fault. Billy Beane is told every year there is no extra money and he figures it out. Krall didn’t and does not even try.

[Moose Herd]

Krall deserves some blame. More than one person can be at fault. Billy Beane is told every year there is no extra money and he figures it out. Krall didn’t and does not even try.


Charlie Goldsmith
@CharlieG__
.
@EnquirerDoc
spoke with Reds owner Bob Castellini and GM Nick Krall.

Castellini said, "If we have an opportunity to improve the bullpen, we will.”

Krall: "Bob mentioned that if we need something, come and ask him, he’s open to it.”

Unlike Billy Beane, Krall isn't the conductor on this train. Bob is.

[RedTeamGo!]

Unlike Billy Beane, Krall isn't the conductor on this train. Bob is.

False.

Billy Beane has to beg the owner of the A’s for money. Lol, was literally depicted in a movie.

All that quote shows is Krall has NOT EVEN TRIED.

[Kc61]

In Sheldon’s article yesterday, Krall said that Reds are “trying to get healthy first” and then will “figure out how to best go from there.”

I thought that suggested a lack of urgency and, perhaps, running out the clock. Let’s put off any action until it’s potentially too late. A bit different tone than the quote from Bob.

But of course you have to take these quotes with a grain of salt. Nobody is giving away any strategic planning in public statements. And the comments are all vague and can be construed in different ways. As always, we’ll see.

[Moose Herd]

False.

Billy Beane has to beg the owner of the A’s for money. Lol, was literally depicted in a movie.

All that quote shows is Krall has NOT EVEN TRIED.

No, what I'm arguing is that if Beane wanted to do a payroll neutral move, he would be allowed to because he's the head of Baseball Operations for the A's. Krall isn't, Bob is. Krall has to get permission to do everything.


We have no idea if Krall has tried anything or not. All we know is that Bob hasn't approved anything yet, since nothing has happened.

[Griffey012]

No, what I'm arguing is that if Beane wanted to do a payroll neutral move, he would be allowed to because he's the head of Baseball Operations for the A's. Krall isn't, Bob is. Krall has to get permission to do everything.


We have no idea if Krall has tried anything or not. All we know is that Bob hasn't approved anything yet, since nothing has happened.

And we know Bob likes to meddle, and we know Bob has final say in terms of any decision that is made. But sure, let's make sure we push some blame to Krall.

[CesarGeronimo]

In Sheldon’s article yesterday, Krall said that Reds are “trying to get healthy first” and then will “figure out how to best go from there.”

I thought that suggested a lack of urgency and, perhaps, running out the clock. Let’s put off any action until it’s potentially too late. A bit different tone than the quote from Bob.

But of course you have to take these quotes with a grain of salt. Nobody is giving away any strategic planning in public statements. And the comments are all vague and can be construed in different ways. As always, we’ll see.

How does a team try to get healthy midseason? As some of the injured players return to action, other players are likely to have injuries. As I said before the season, the team's goal needs be to build a depth of talent so that it can withstand injuries, not hope for luck that it will avoid injuries.

[Kc61]

And we know Bob likes to meddle, and we know Bob has final say in terms of any decision that is made. But sure, let's make sure we push some blame to Krall.

The only blame for Krall IMO is that so much of payroll cuts came from pitching. The team could have been better balanced.

But of course the budget drives the train.

It’s no accident that Bob and Nick spoke to the media yesterday. They feel some heat from the public and a home stand is upcoming.

But while they’ll do some things at the deadline IMO, the real test will be this coming off-season. Was there a mere COVID blip in ramping up the team, or is lower payroll the new normal?

[Moose Herd]

The only blame for Krall IMO is that so much of payroll cuts came from pitching. The team could have been better balanced.

.

This assumes it was Krall's choice where the cuts came from.

[BillDoran]

We'll never know, but Dick Williams leaving and the ownership hiring his No. 2, the day-to-day guy, can certainly be read as a big ole warning.

Whatever the case may be, the Reds need some kind of tactic. It's absolutely insane to try to play the same roster management game as the Dodgers, Padres and Yankees.

The spin/Kyle Boddy thing may well materialize, but there's no explaining the Opening Day roster in Cincinnati. It was incredibly imbalanced and had glaring holes. Sitting on your hands over and over again, being afraid to make a mistake is never going to work in Cincinnati. There's a higher degree of difficulty. Be creative. Be assertive. I swear Reds management is as clear a sign that I know of that smart people are not running the world.

[Griffey012]

The only blame for Krall IMO is that so much of payroll cuts came from pitching. The team could have been better balanced.

But of course the budget drives the train.

It’s no accident that Bob and Nick spoke to the media yesterday. They feel some heat from the public and a home stand is upcoming.

But while they’ll do some things at the deadline IMO, the real test will be this coming off-season. Was there a mere COVID blip in ramping up the team, or is lower payroll the new normal?

I just don't know what kinda of cuts from offense were out there to be made in all honesty.

Nobody was taking Moose's contract. The value for Suarez would be tough to gauge after his down 2020 season, I can't imagine BobC would let him be traded either, in hindsight, if we could have dumped his contract ala Raisel it is looking like the move. If we moved Castellanos, we aren't in a better spot. Nobody was taking Shogo, same for Votto. It pretty much leaves it to dumping Barnhart (who has been well worth his pay) or selling some prospects to eat money.

The thing is, if they would actually just go grab two solid relievers, the whole mess of an off-season wouldn't be such a mess because this could be a darn good squad.

[texasdave]

The Reds bullpen did not blow that game last night. They worked 7 innings and gave up 2 earned runs. I am not going to hold two clown-baseball ghost runners against them. That would be ludicrous to do so. An expectation of pitching 7 innings without giving up an earned run is unreasonable. Their performance last night works out to a 2.57 ERA. I'll take that any time.

[REDREAD]

@EnquirerDoc
spoke with Reds owner Bob Castellini and GM Nick Krall.

Castellini said, "If we have an opportunity to improve the bullpen, we will.”

Krall: "Bob mentioned that if we need something, come and ask him, he’s open to it.”


If this is true, what has Krall been doing since the end of last season? We've clearly needed bullpen help for a long time.
Of course, I doubt it's true. Krall probably making sure "the guy that signs his paychecks" doesn't look like a fool.

[REDREAD]

I think we are talking about something different, then. I did not hear anything about offsetting Covid costs.

They made Villar an offer, a good enough one for reports coming out that he signed with the Reds. Castellini was talking about how the Reds made offers to players and just lost out on them. But it gave them this extra money that they could use to improve the team.

Unless that was all a dream, that is what I heard.

We also heard that Villar was offered a non-guaranteed deal just like Gordon and Bedrosian.
Seems like the Reds had such limited money, they wanted to bring all veterans in on minor league contracts and then decide who to keep based on spring training (or delay the decision)
How sad is it that Villar turned down a starting job with the Reds to be a backup with the Mets.. and I don't blame him. I would have taken the guaranteed money too.

[REDREAD]

Unlike Billy Beane, Krall isn't the conductor on this train. Bob is.

Krall can make a payroll neutral trade to add a reliever, like Bowden did when he got Guzman in 1999.
It can be done. That extra kid we threw into the Guzman trade did not amount to anything, IIRC.. but even if he did, it was worth it.

[REDREAD]

This assumes it was Krall's choice where the cuts came from.

If Bob makes every decision, as you imply, why is Krall even here?
I mean, come on Krall has some say in what happens.
Maybe Bob has a few favorite players that can't be traded. Ok, work around that.
Other than maybe Greene, I doubt Bob cares about anyone in the minor leagues.. trade prospects or Senzel.
Senzel can't possibly be a Bob favorite.

[RedsManRick]

Krall can make a payroll neutral trade to add a reliever, like Bowden did when he got Guzman in 1999.
It can be done. That extra kid we threw into the Guzman trade did not amount to anything, IIRC.. but even if he did, it was worth it.

Who you are trading who makes any money to bring in a proven reliever? There are only 7 guys on the roster who make even $5MM: Votto (25), Castellanos (14), Moustakas (14), Gray (11), Suarez (11), Miley (8), Shogo (7). You could add Barnhart at 4MM, but I doubt you're getting an impact guy at that salary and it would leave catcher pretty thing.

Votto and Castellanos aren't going anywhere. Grey and Miley are pitchers. Shogo is unlikely to have any trade value. So it basically would have to be Moose or Suarez. The emergence of India certainly enables that somewhat, but having Senzel healthy would make me feel better about it.

[Mitri]

If Bob makes every decision, as you imply, why is Krall even here?
I mean, come on Krall has some say in what happens.
Maybe Bob has a few favorite players that can't be traded. Ok, work around that.
Other than maybe Greene, I doubt Bob cares about anyone in the minor leagues.. trade prospects or Senzel.
Senzel can't possibly be a Bob favorite.

Pretty sure Moose Herd is related to or besties with Krall.

I think they’re both incompetent. Castellini certainly meddles more than he should but I have a hard time believing that Krall is completely handcuffed. He just lacks the skills and creativity to be a big league GM.

[KeefeCato]

First move should be to DFA Doolittle.

[KeefeCato]

Antone and Sims are fine. They need to add a really good LH reliever. Those three would then pitch innings 7-9 in close or winning games. This slides Brach back a notch to the 4th guy you would use in those situations. Add Lorenzen and Warren to lower leverage. At least to see how Lorenzen does. Garrett used in lower leverage spots when a couple of LHB are due up. Lastly make Hoffman the long man. So health Lorenzen and Hoffman and Antone. Just DFAing Doolittle and replacing him with a very good LH in his spot would go a long way to having at least a league average pen.

[Roy Tucker]

I’m not holding my breath. I’ve seen the Reds’ FO do this over the years. There is a 5-alarm fire burning in the Reds’ bullpen and Krall/Castellini are shooting at it with squirt guns.

[Moose Herd]

Pretty sure Moose Herd is related to or besties with Krall.

I think they’re both incompetent. Castellini certainly meddles more than he should but I have a hard time believing that Krall is completely handcuffed. He just lacks the skills and creativity to be a big league GM.

Krall may be the idiot you all say he is, but I have no way to know. All we know is what's reported in the press, that Bob has to give his approval on everything.

They can fire Krall today for all I care.


Literally everything that has been written about the front office says the same thing: Bob is the one making the final decisions. I know we all don't want it to be true, but I don't know why everyone has such a hard time accepting it.

[RedsManRick]

Krall may be the idiot you all say he is, but I have no way to know. All we know is what's reported in the press, that Bob has to give his approval on everything.

They can fire Krall today for all I care.

Literally everything that has been written about the front office says the same thing: Bob is the one making the final decisions. I know we all don't want it to be true, but I don't know why everyone has such a hard time accepting it.

Yep. With the clear constraints on his choices, it's impossible to tell whether or not he's a good GM. When you're forced to sort through the trash, chances are most of what you find is going to be trash.

[REDREAD]

Who you are trading who makes any money to bring in a proven reliever? There are only 7 guys on the roster who make even $5MM: Votto (25), Castellanos (14), Moustakas (14), Gray (11), Suarez (11), Miley (8), Shogo (7). You could add Barnhart at 4MM, but I doubt you're getting an impact guy at that salary and it would leave catcher pretty thing.

Votto and Castellanos aren't going anywhere. Grey and Miley are pitchers. Shogo is unlikely to have any trade value. So it basically would have to be Moose or Suarez. The emergence of India certainly enables that somewhat, but having Senzel healthy would make me feel better about it.

Suppose a team was willing to trade a reliver for prospect X, and that reliever is owed 2 million the rest of the season.
Get that team to take Prospect X and Prospect Y, and they eat the 2 million owed.
Trades like this happen all the time.
The Reds ate the rest of Cueto's salary when he was sent to KC.

[Tony Cloninger]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/26tk0vOGaYrNfxzJ6/200w.gif?cid=82a1493bq9rdwk1t6aafthnlj9hr0zk79hv4r lsap74kujjo&rid=200w.gif

Awesemo! What Bob C meant to say. Through his lawyers. Was that they are working on making moves and stop the losing.

[REDREAD]

Yep. With the clear constrains on his choices, it's impossible to tell whether or not he's a good GM. When you're forced to sort through the trash, chances are most of what you find is going to be trash.

Jim Bowden convinced Lindner to make a few trades that were initially rejected.
Walt convinced Bob to spend money.. Heck, he traded for Broxton, who was making about 6 million/year.
Dick Williams convinced Bob to make some pretty big trades and signings.
Krall strikes me as a Dan O'Brien type. He's happy to have a job as GM. He's going to sit quietly in his office and not make any waves. Not going to make many moves either. No creativity, just throws up his hands and says he can't do anything.
A team like the Reds can't improve (much less win) with a GM like that.

[Moose Herd]

Jim Bowden convinced Lindner to make a few trades that were initially rejected.
Walt convinced Bob to spend money.. Heck, he traded for Broxton, who was making about 6 million/year.
Dick Williams convinced Bob to make some pretty big trades and signings.
Krall strikes me as a Dan O'Brien type. He's happy to have a job as GM. He's going to sit quietly in his office and not make any waves. Not going to make many moves either. No creativity, just throws up his hands and says he can't do anything.
A team like the Reds can't improve (much less win) with a GM like that.

Bob has to be willing to listen to Krall. It doesn't seem like he wants to.

Zero problem firing him, but it isn't going to matter unless Bob is willing to bring someone in and let them run Baseball Operations.


Who is available out there that would be able to run the team well (and that Bob would allow to do their job)?

[fearofpopvol1]

If/When Moose and Senzel become healthy and no one else injured, this easily could be the best offensive team the Reds have had this century (defense be damned). It's a shame watching it go to waste.

[Moose Herd]

I really don't understand why Reds fans give Bob any benefit of the doubt at all. Blame anyone you want, but at the end of the day the biggest issue for the Reds moving forward is Bob Castellini. Not sure why that's contriversial.

[757690]

I stated this earlier, but want to emphasize:

No matter what the Reds plan is, no matter what money they have to spend, it will be difficult for them to add relievers. Nearly every team is in need of relievers. Nearly every team has a few relievers with a 6+ ERA. Most teams are near competitive.

There will an ugly bidding war for nearly every reliever that is available. Teams likely will have to overpay this deadline for relievers, in terms of prospect. I only see those teams that are solidly in contention to go deep into the playoffs to make any big trades this deadline. Those that are on the edge of .500 will likely stay pat.

[RedsManRick]

Suppose a team was willing to trade a reliver for prospect X, and that reliever is owed 2 million the rest of the season.
Get that team to take Prospect X and Prospect Y, and they eat the 2 million owed.
Trades like this happen all the time.
The Reds ate the rest of Cueto's salary when he was sent to KC.

Ok, great. What's the list of guys like that?

a. Reliably solid
b. Available for a pair of mediocre prospects
c. Make less than $2MM the rest of the season (I doubt you'd be happy with the Reds paying a higher prospect price to offset salary)

I suspect the list is pretty short. I did a quick pass and here's what I found.

Qualified relievers w/ xFIP under 4.00: 86
On a team w/ .450 or less win%*: 18
Make <$4MM in 2021: still 18 (turns out bad teams don't typically have/keep expensive relievers)

Here's the list. Which guys from this would you feel happy about the Reds acquiring? Which guy would make you feel like Krall materially improved the bullpen?



Name Team ERA FIP xFIP
Taylor Clarke ARI 3.74 3.22 3.90
Cesar Valdez BAL 5.74 2.86 3.35
Cole Sulser BAL 2.49 2.18 2.54
Paul Fry BAL 3.12 2.16 2.98
Tanner Scott BAL 2.96 3.24 3.86
Tyler Wells BAL 4.13 3.93 3.70
Daniel Bard COL 4.20 3.50 3.49
Daniel Norris DET 6.84 4.53 3.76
Jose Cisnero DET 3.19 3.07 3.52
Michael Fulmer DET 2.84 3.16 3.23
John Curtiss MIA 2.76 2.86 3.15
Richard Bleier MIA 3.16 3.59 2.46
Zach Pop MIA 6.00 4.21 3.90
Caleb Thielbar MIN 3.86 2.74 3.35
Taylor Rogers MIN 2.67 2.18 2.11
Chris Stratton PIT 2.79 3.79 3.99
Clay Holmes PIT 4.4 3.62 3.52
David Bednar PIT 3.76 3.81 2.95

You can adjust the parameters however you'd like. Of course it only takes 1 team and 1 guy. But I think the idea of trading for bullpen help is often based on the idea that there are reliably, quality relievers just waiting to be picked off struggling teams. I don't see it.

I can't wait to see how RZ reacts when we trade say, Mike Siani, for Paul Fry who gives us a 4.00 ERA over 30 innings saving us a grand total of ~5 runs. I'm not going to be upset if he does 1 or 2 of those types of deals. Simply staunching the bleeding would feel nice. I'm just not sure it moves the needle at all that much in terms of wins and losses. The cavalry isn't coming from the trade market.

[BillDoran]

Yep. With the clear constraints on his choices, it's impossible to tell whether or not he's a good GM. When you're forced to sort through the trash, chances are most of what you find is going to be trash.


I really don't understand why Reds fans give Bob any benefit of the doubt at all. Blame anyone you want, but at the end of the day the biggest issue for the Reds moving forward is Bob Castellini. Not sure why that's contriversial.

I don't know. Doesn't Krall take some of the blame? Either he's not particularly good at his job or he signed on knowingly to be ownership's yes-man. He's been in the organization long enough to know exactly what he was walking into.

And I don't think there's a single Reds fan giving Banana Bob the benefit of the doubt. Anybody following the Reds closely wants him gone yesterday, as far as I can tell.

Everybody gets blame--and ultimately Banana Bob is the problem--but Krall has to do something, anything to find a credible SS or just ceaselessly throwing bullpen crap against the wall. Package some lower minor lottery tickets and absorb a bad team's bullpen contracts (like the Archie Bradley deal last year).

Watching a talented, but flawed, roster collapse on itself is baseball malpractice, and it's exactly what we're witnessing.

[Moose Herd]

I don't know. Doesn't Krall take some of the blame? Either he's not particularly good at his job or he signed on knowingly to be ownership's yes-man. He's been in the organization long enough to know exactly what he was walking into.

And I don't think there's a single Reds fan giving Banana Bob the benefit of the doubt. Anybody following the Reds closely wants him gone yesterday, as far as I can tell.

Everybody gets blame--and ultimately Banana Bob is the problem--but Krall has to do something, anything to find a credible SS or just ceaselessly throwing bullpen crap against the wall. Package some lower minor lottery tickets and absorb a bad team's bullpen contracts (like the Archie Bradley deal last year).

Watching a talented, but flawed, roster collapse on itself is baseball malpractice, and it's exactly what we're witnessing.

Bob would have to sign off on trading for a bad team's bullpen contract.

Bob has to sign off on everything.

Bob.

Bo.

B.

[Roy Tucker]

The frustrating part is that the Reds are close. They have a lot of the pieces that constitute a good ball club. But they aren’t quite there. They showed that in SD. The Padres are very good and the Reds went toe to toe with them in a loud and hostile ballpark and battled well with character and ability. But when push came to shove, the Reds didn’t have the bullpen to win those games they were in good position to win. That has been glaringly obvious since the Reds released Bradley and gave away Inglesias and failed to make a move to have anything close to a decent bullpen.

So yeah, I’m not getting any younger. The Reds can win this year and I’d love to see that. But they have to bolster the bullpen. It’s hard to do but so what? It’s your job. If it was easy, everyone would do it. Work hard, be creative, and for god’s sake, do something more than wait and see and dumpster dive.

[RedsManRick]

I don't know. Doesn't Krall take some of the blame? Either he's not particularly good at his job or he signed on knowingly to be ownership's yes-man. He's been in the organization long enough to know exactly what he was walking into.

He signed on knowingly be the "yes-man". But consider, do you really work your whole career in a very small industry to get into a top management seat and then turn down the job because you know the owner is going to handcuff you in the short-term? It's not like he could leave the Reds and walk into a GM job somewhere else. So you take the job, get the experience, and make the best of it.

I'm not saying Krall has a done good job, certainly. I just think it's an incomplete. My biggest frustration at this point has been not getting Willy Adames -- or more fairly, not even being in on him.

But ultimately, it was a no-win situation and that lies entirely at the feet of ownership.

[CaiGuy]

Ok, great. What's the list of guys like that?

a. Reliably solid
b. Available for a pair of mediocre prospects
c. Make less than $2MM the rest of the season (I doubt you'd be happy with the Reds paying a higher prospect price to offset salary)

I suspect the list is pretty short. I did a quick pass and here's what I found.

Qualified relievers w/ xFIP under 4.00: 86
On a team w/ .450 or less win%*: 18
Make <$4MM in 2021: still 18 (turns out bad teams don't typically have/keep expensive relievers)

Here's the list. Which guys from this would you feel happy about the Reds acquiring? Which guy would make you feel like Krall materially improved the bullpen?



Name Team ERA FIP xFIP
Taylor Clarke ARI 3.74 3.22 3.90
Cesar Valdez BAL 5.74 2.86 3.35
Cole Sulser BAL 2.49 2.18 2.54
Paul Fry BAL 3.12 2.16 2.98
Tanner Scott BAL 2.96 3.24 3.86
Tyler Wells BAL 4.13 3.93 3.70
Daniel Bard COL 4.20 3.50 3.49
Daniel Norris DET 6.84 4.53 3.76
Jose Cisnero DET 3.19 3.07 3.52
Michael Fulmer DET 2.84 3.16 3.23
John Curtiss MIA 2.76 2.86 3.15
Richard Bleier MIA 3.16 3.59 2.46
Zach Pop MIA 6.00 4.21 3.90
Caleb Thielbar MIN 3.86 2.74 3.35
Taylor Rogers MIN 2.67 2.18 2.11
Chris Stratton PIT 2.79 3.79 3.99
Clay Holmes PIT 4.4 3.62 3.52
David Bednar PIT 3.76 3.81 2.95

You can adjust the parameters however you'd like. Of course it only takes 1 team and 1 guy. But I think the idea of trading for bullpen help is often based on the idea that there are reliably, quality relievers just waiting to be picked off struggling teams. I don't see it.

I can't wait to see how RZ reacts when we trade say, Mike Siani, for Paul Fry who gives us a 4.00 ERA over 30 innings saving us a grand total of ~5 runs. I'm not going to be upset if he does 1 or 2 of those types of deals. Simply staunching the bleeding would feel nice. I'm just not sure it moves the needle at all that much in terms of wins and losses. The cavalry isn't coming from the trade market.

I know this isn't the point that you are making, but there are a number of guys that I would be happy with on that list. And why limit yourself to 1...why not 2 or 3? That moves the needle a bit...

Also, is Siani a likely future major league? If not, why worry about trading him for a big leaguer who can help the club? Isn't that what this is all about?

I would trade 3 Siani's for 3 of those guys. It's not insignificant to save ~15 runs over half a season, is it? In a tight division and an otherwise solid club?

[Kc61]

I stated this earlier, but want to emphasize:

No matter what the Reds plan is, no matter what money they have to spend, it will be difficult for them to add relievers. Nearly every team is in need of relievers. Nearly every team has a few relievers with a 6+ ERA. Most teams are near competitive.

There will an ugly bidding war for nearly every reliever that is available. Teams likely will have to overpay this deadline for relievers, in terms of prospect. I only see those teams that are solidly in contention to go deep into the playoffs to make any big trades this deadline. Those that are on the edge of .500 will likely stay pat.

Ok, but at some point Reds will need to face the marketplace for relief pitching. If not this deadline, then some day.

Last off-season relievers were too expensive. This season they are too scarce. When will the market be just right?

Internal development is a partial answer. Brilliant use of the scrap heap is desirable. But if Reds can’t use the trade and FA marketplace as a source or relief pitching, they’ll likely fall short.

[BillDoran]

He signed on knowingly be the "yes-man". But consider, do you really work your whole career in a very small industry to get into a top management seat and then turn down the job because you know the owner is going to handcuff you in the short-term? It's not like he could leave the Reds and walk into a GM job somewhere else. So you take the job, get the experience, and make the best of it.

I'm not saying Krall has a done good job, certainly. I just think it's an incomplete. My biggest frustration at this point has been not getting Willy Adames -- or more fairly, not even being in on him.

But ultimately, it was a no-win situation and that lies entirely at the feet of ownership.

I get where you're coming from. I imagine most of us are yes-men and women in our everyday lives. So, it's not like the idea is entirely foreign, but this is where the creativity comes in (and what Moose Turd fails to understtand).

I'm sure it's more complex than I understand (and perhaps Bob isn't receptive to anything), but put three deals a day on his desk. Find out what he's willing to part with. Find out what he's interested in bringing back (got a sweet spot for an ex-Red, some old Cardinals favorite). Find out if there's any money whatsoever.

The Reds have a reasonably good system. I'd think the Tyler Calihans, Mike Sianis and Rece Hinds or some of those shiny lower minors pitchers would net you a reasonably effective reliever on a flagging team.

As flawed as things are, this is a win-now year. Things only get harder over the next few years. I'm pushing some chips in right now, if I'm in the front office.

[Moose Herd]

I get where you're coming from. I imagine most of us are yes-men and women in our everyday lives. So, it's not like the idea is entirely foreign, but this is where the creativity comes in (and what Moose Turd fails to understtand).

Nice one Bill****Face




I'm sure it's more complex than I understand (and perhaps Bob isn't receptive to anything), but put three deals a day on his desk. Find out what he's willing to part with. Find out what he's interested in bringing back (got a sweet spot for an ex-Red, some old Cardinals favorite). Find out if there's any money whatsoever.



How do you know the people in the front office aren't doing this?

[757690]

Ok, but at some point Reds will need to face the marketplace for relief pitching. If not this deadline, then some day.

Last off-season relievers were too expensive. This season they are too scarce. When will the market be just right?

Internal development is a partial answer. Brilliant use of the scrap heap is desirable. But if Reds can’t use the trade and FA marketplace as a source or relief pitching, they’ll likely fall short.

I’ve made this argument before, but I think the Reds have decided to be neutral this season, due to the unstableness that the Covid situation created. They had a plan, Covid ruined that plan, so they decided to wait until things get back to normal in 2022 before making any big moves.

I can see the Reds being aggressive this off-season and maybe even raising payroll back to $150M.

[Coopdaddy67]

Krall deserves some blame. More than one person can be at fault. Billy Beane is told every year there is no extra money and he figures it out. Krall didn’t and does not even try.

Pretty pointless to compare a guy that's been in charge for less than a year to a guy that's been in charge 25 years.

Expecting Krall to take control and magically rid this team of bad contracts and add new talent while substantially cutting payroll isn't realistic.

[Kc61]

As flawed as things are, this is a win-now year. Things only get harder over the next few years. I'm pushing some chips in right now, if I'm in the front office.

But do the Reds perceive this as a “win-now year?” Or as a cost saving year, post-COVID, with more modest goals on the field?

One could present a strong argument that it’s time to ramp up heavily, many of the financial risks are now diminished, the division is there for the taking, go big right now. Not sure Reds would buy that.

[Roy Tucker]

But do the Reds perceive this as a “win-now year?” Or as a cost saving year, post-COVID, with more modest goals on the field?

One could present a strong argument that it’s time to ramp up heavily, many of the financial risks are now diminished, the division is there for the taking, go big right now. Not sure Reds would buy that.

You don’t always get to pick and choose when you contend.

[757690]

You don’t always get to pick and choose when you contend.

The Reds have shown that you do get to choose when you don’t contend.

[Kc61]

You don’t always get to pick and choose when you contend.

You can’t pick and choose contention. But you can pick and choose when you try. And how hard you try.

[GAC]

This assumes it was Krall's choice where the cuts came from.

If he can't even make that decision, which, IMO, is a GM responsibility, then what is his job as GM? Maybe he should be making $15/hr (lol). I put the full blunt of the blame where it belongs (IMO) - Castellini and the ownership group. If Krall is the origin of the bad decisions (pitching), and sitting on his hands, not doing anything to address issues, possibly being inept, then Castellini should have fired him. What's he paying him for? You can pay someone to kiss your butt and not make decisions without clearance for a lot less money.

[NebraskaRed]

The improvements to the bullpen will be Lorenzen and maybe some combination of Hoffman/Gutierrez/Santillan.

Plus, some minor trade for someone.

All of which will be an improvement, but not sure how much of an improvement.

[BillDoran]

You can’t pick and choose contention. But you can pick and choose when you try. And how hard you try.

I guess that's what makes it so frustrating. They don't need to try much harder.

It feels like a good value play to throw a few chips in this year. They don't need a middle of the order bat or an ace. Some bullpen arms could make a world of difference.

[Falls City Beer]

They should add arms of course, but they shouldn’t add them with the notion of contending this season because they aren’t. So they should add but probably dump a contract or two while they’re at it. Since it’s obvious that 1. They aren’t increasing payroll in the near or medium term and 2. They need pitching more than any team in MLB.

In other words, if the price of a 100 MPH bullpen arm is Cast, then pay it and keep it moving. This team needs to understand that they are not postseason material and proceed accordingly.

[westofyou]

They should add arms of course, but they shouldn’t add them with the notion of contending this season because they aren’t. So they should add but probably dump a contract or two while they’re at it. Since it’s obvious that 1. They aren’t increasing payroll in the near or medium term and 2. They need pitching more than any team in MLB.

Why even bother being a fan if it's all that bad?

[Falls City Beer]

Why even bother being a fan if it's all that bad?

They’re a fun team this season but there is NO way on earth they’re going to turn up two starters and 3 bullpen arms between now and July 31. I love playing spoiler and this team will break some good teams’ hearts. They’re good but they are not a playoff team. You absolutely have to have bullpen to play in October.

[westofyou]

They’re a fun team this season but there is NO way on earth they’re going to turn up two starters and 3 bullpen arms between now and July 31. I love playing spoiler and this team will break some good teams’ hearts. They’re good but they are not a playoff team. You absolutely have to have bullpen to play in October.

How is there no way though?

This is the Run differential for the division

-7 - Brewers
18 - Cubs
-32 - Cards
-13 - Reds

Using your criteria no team will win the division this year, because they all have warts, they all are constrained budget wise, they all have limited resources to trade.

This division is winnable, 1987 Twins style but winnable

[Falls City Beer]

How is there no way though?

This is the Run differential for the division

-7 - Brewers
18 - Cubs
-32 - Cards
-13 - Reds

Using your criteria no team will win the division this year, because they all have warts, they all are constrained budget wise, they all have limited resources to trade.

This division is winnable, 1987 Twins style but winnable

The run differential doesn’t move me much. It’s the personnel on the team. Counting on other teams getting hurt isn’t a strategy.

[RedTeamGo!]

They should add arms of course, but they shouldn’t add them with the notion of contending this season because they aren’t. So they should add but probably dump a contract or two while they’re at it. Since it’s obvious that 1. They aren’t increasing payroll in the near or medium term and 2. They need pitching more than any team in MLB.

In other words, if the price of a 100 MPH bullpen arm is Cast, then pay it and keep it moving. This team needs to understand that they are not postseason material and proceed accordingly.

Just to be clear: you are suggesting trading Castellanos for a reliever?

[Moose Herd]

Just to be clear: you are suggesting trading Castellanos for a reliever?

He's been calling for a complete tear down since the Reds lost that one game to the Pirates back in May.

[M2]

They’re a fun team this season but...

Proving the old adage that everything before the "but" you don't really mean.

[RedTeamGo!]

Another bullpen meltdown happening. Why do we continue to support a team that is being ran by people that don’t care about winning?

[LARKIN]

Another bullpen meltdown happening. Why do we continue to support a team that is being ran by people that don’t care about winning?

As bad as it feels to us, imagine how the position guys feel.
We gave away our closer this year. To save a few bucks. Indefensible now that they didn’t use those savings.
This team tried to short a rebuild, leaving them now without multiple high level trade assets and more holes in the roster than Swiss cheese.

[Griffey012]

Another bullpen meltdown happening. Why do we continue to support a team that is being ran by people that don’t care about winning?

Well, I get free tickets from work. I refuse to actually give them my money though.

[westofyou]

Another bullpen meltdown happening. Why do we continue to support a team that is being ran by people that don’t care about winning?

So we can have an excuse to drink?

[WrongVerb]

You had the opportunity, Bob. Instead, the team is on the verge of losing 6 in a row. Five of those losses can be directly attributed to the lack of good relievers.

Bob, if you refuse to pull out stops to improve the club, why should we continue to be fans?

[Griffey012]

nm

[klw]

Opportunity to improve exists: bring up Alaniz and Diehl. It really can't get worse and we could at least make puns.

[HammerTime]

https://media.giphy.com/media/BjHIjM2YFC3rEUaMrw/source.gif

[Tom Servo]

To think I registered around this time in 2006 and the team is in basically the same position as back then. Great offense, solid-to-good starting, and a terrible bullpen.

Time to trade Naquin and Alejo Lopez for 2021 Gary Majewski and Bill Bray.

[757690]

Excited to see Castellini use today’s win as a reason to believe this team is fine and to stand pat at the deadline.

[M2]

To think I registered around this time in 2006 and the team is in basically the same position as back then. Great offense, solid-to-good starting, and a terrible bullpen.

Time to trade Naquin and Alejo Lopez for 2021 Gary Majewski and Bill Bray.

Or, alternatively, don't trade for that.

[backbencher]

He's been calling for a complete tear down since the Reds lost that one game to the Pirates back in May.

. . . May of 1991, that is.

On the plus side, the board won FCB's first-born in a side bet somewhere along the way.

[KeefeCato]

Opportunity to improve exists: bring up Alaniz and Diehl. It really can't get worse and we could at least make puns.

If they are serious about winning then they get help from somewhere. Bringing up guys like Alaniz and Diehl is not help.

[Tom Servo]

I'm really thinking there's just something fundamentally wrong here. What I mean is that even with some questionable talent it shouldn't be THIS bad. It is a small sample size but Cam Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez are both currently giving their teams some solid innings out of the pen when they looked absolutely cooked in Reds uniforms this spring. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Doolittle if he's cut loose. I don't know if it's something Derek Johnson is or isn't preaching or if they didn't get these guys properly ready in spring training or what, but I feel like it's bigger than just "these guys all just suck", because there's a lot of equally middling pitchers in baseball who don't suck nearly this bad.

[Falls City Beer]

Just to be clear: you are suggesting trading Castellanos for a reliever?

Yes as long as it’s an elite arm, why not?

[Moose Herd]

I'm really thinking there's just something fundamentally wrong here. What I mean is that even with some questionable talent it shouldn't be THIS bad. It is a small sample size but Cam Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez are both currently giving their teams some solid innings out of the pen when they looked absolutely cooked in Reds uniforms this spring. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Doolittle if he's cut loose. I don't know if it's something Derek Johnson is or isn't preaching or if they didn't get these guys properly ready in spring training or what, but I feel like it's bigger than just "these guys all just suck", because there's a lot of equally middling pitchers in baseball who don't suck nearly this bad.

Cam Bedrosian was cut after less than 6 innings. Not sure what, if anything, can be learned after six innings. I thought they cut bait way too early, but everyone seemed happy when he was gone. (Also, he's thrown less than 8 innings for the A's, so we are talking small sample sizes all around with him). Noe has only 6.0 total innings this season himself, and is on his third franchise since Spring Training.

[Falls City Beer]

Another bullpen meltdown happening. Why do we continue to support a team that is being ran by people that don’t care about winning?

Lol yeah I said a bullpen arm. Your issue with that? Sounds like a pretty solid plan to add another Antone to the mix by subtracting a guy who is gone October 1.

[Falls City Beer]

He's been calling for a complete tear down since the Reds lost that one game to the Pirates back in May.

No I haven’t. As I’ve said a million times, teardowns aren’t really achievable at the deadline anymore. So even if that’s what I wanted (it’s not), it wouldn’t be possible.

[RedsFanInMS]

Hey Bob, if my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle

[Falls City Beer]

Proving the old adage that everything before the "but" you don't really mean.

The fact that I’m still following games in late June instead of reading or pruning my rose bushes in the evening is all the proof I need that I’m still engaged. This offense is amazing. I like hitting.

[Bob Sheed]

Dear Bob,

Were you watching today?

Me too.

Signed,

Common Sense

[M2]

I'm really thinking there's just something fundamentally wrong here. What I mean is that even with some questionable talent it shouldn't be THIS bad. It is a small sample size but Cam Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez are both currently giving their teams some solid innings out of the pen when they looked absolutely cooked in Reds uniforms this spring. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Doolittle if he's cut loose. I don't know if it's something Derek Johnson is or isn't preaching or if they didn't get these guys properly ready in spring training or what, but I feel like it's bigger than just "these guys all just suck", because there's a lot of equally middling pitchers in baseball who don't suck nearly this bad.

Nominally I like Johnson, but that's based on him doing well with a wide variety of pitchers here prior to this season and in his previous stop. Bedrosian and Ramirez have been solid pitchers before and now seemingly after the Reds. The implosions we've seen, fairly regularly, have got to stop. I think you're correct in noting the coaches bear some major responsibility here. They need to get a few guys right. Definitely would increase my confidence that anyone they get in trade will pitch well.

[Ron Madden]

So we can have an excuse to drink?

I honestly believe that some of these guys root for the Reds to fail to give them something to b***h about and run to their keyboard to moan and grown in a way they believe will make other people think they're really smart baseball experts. :laugh:

[Wonderful Monds]

I'm really thinking there's just something fundamentally wrong here. What I mean is that even with some questionable talent it shouldn't be THIS bad. It is a small sample size but Cam Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez are both currently giving their teams some solid innings out of the pen when they looked absolutely cooked in Reds uniforms this spring. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Doolittle if he's cut loose. I don't know if it's something Derek Johnson is or isn't preaching or if they didn't get these guys properly ready in spring training or what, but I feel like it's bigger than just "these guys all just suck", because there's a lot of equally middling pitchers in baseball who don't suck nearly this bad.

I’m not necessarily inclined to disagree either, I guess my only question is like….why now? They’ve had some decent bullpens the last couple years since Johnson has been here as far as I can recall. I just don’t understand why guys like Amir Garrett are suddenly melting down into being the worst reliever in baseball, or guys like Doolittle become completely unsalvageable. Just seems strange that all of the sudden every reliever they touch turns to dung.

Before this year, David Hernandez and to a lesser degree Jared Hughes fell off a cliff in Johnson’s first year. But then they got some decent innings out of Robert Stephenson and turned around Lorenzen that year as well. Last year, mostly the same, Iglesias even pitched well down the stretch. It makes sense to me why guys like Cionel Perez or Jose DeLeon suck, but less so much why Bedrosian stopped being a major league caliber pitcher for his brief stint here, but nowhere else.

[Roy Tucker]

One of many issues with the Reds bullpen is the chaos of it. A good bullpen will have a structure with predefined roles that the relievers have. You have a closer at the backend and then set up guys and middle inning guys.

Besides Antone as the hero to save a game and maybe Sims, the pen seems to be a constantly changing cast of different guys trying out for different roles. There is very little consistency.

[Tom Servo]

Cam Bedrosian was cut after less than 6 innings. Not sure what, if anything, can be learned after six innings. I thought they cut bait way too early, but everyone seemed happy when he was gone. (Also, he's thrown less than 8 innings for the A's, so we are talking small sample sizes all around with him). Noe has only 6.0 total innings this season himself, and is on his third franchise since Spring Training.
Sure but meanwhile the Reds pick up a guy like Michael Feliz for about as many innings as those guys have and he allows 13 hits, 4 walks, and 12 runs. Again obviously it's a small sample size but I mean it's just ridiculous.

[RedTeamGo!]

Lol yeah I said a bullpen arm. Your issue with that? Sounds like a pretty solid plan to add another Antone to the mix by subtracting a guy who is gone October 1.

Another Antone? Who might that be that is available?

Either way, no, you don’t trade one of the best trade chips in baseball for a reliever.

[RedTeamGo!]

I'm really thinking there's just something fundamentally wrong here. What I mean is that even with some questionable talent it shouldn't be THIS bad. It is a small sample size but Cam Bedrosian and Noe Ramirez are both currently giving their teams some solid innings out of the pen when they looked absolutely cooked in Reds uniforms this spring. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Doolittle if he's cut loose. I don't know if it's something Derek Johnson is or isn't preaching or if they didn't get these guys properly ready in spring training or what, but I feel like it's bigger than just "these guys all just suck", because there's a lot of equally middling pitchers in baseball who don't suck nearly this bad.

Tom, please tell me what the one constant is? I’ve been quietly banging the drum for awhile now…

[Tom Servo]

Tom, please tell me what the one constant is? I’ve been quietly banging the drum for awhile now…
The sticky stuff? I mean maybe but does it mean the Reds quit using it months before this new crackdown while everyone else was still using it? I'm not going to say it isn't that because I don't know, I suppose it's as good a guess as any. Still just a guess though.

[westofyou]

Lol yeah I said a bullpen arm. Your issue with that? Sounds like a pretty solid plan to add another Antone to the mix by subtracting a guy who is gone October 1.

Is he gone?

You, I don't know that do we?

Why pretend we do?

Now as for trading him, who is looking for bats is my first question. My second is if they are looking for bats then do they have arms? Any of us here can say... "Trade Winker or Cast for an arm" but to who really? Trade deadlines tend to be pitcher heavy, FA to be heavy and salary dumps. I don't see either of those guys as a chip, plus I try not to cut off my nose to spite my face

[RedTeamGo!]

The sticky stuff? I mean maybe but does it mean the Reds quit using it months before this new crackdown while everyone else was still using it? I'm not going to say it isn't that because I don't know, I suppose it's as good a guess as any. Still just a guess though.

No, I am referring to Mr. Derek Johnson. He’s the constant in all of this. The relievers change and for some reason the results continue to get worse and worse.

[westofyou]

No, I am referring to Mr. Derek Johnson. He’s the constant in all of this. The relievers change and for some reason the results continue to get worse and worse.

Lee Tunnell is the BP coach, if coaches are to be called out for not tending the tire fire correctly then he's in the mix right? He sits out there, he's watching them throw, talking to them all game, checking their status and then conveying that information to the dugout.

[Wonderful Monds]

Lee Tunnell is the BP coach, if coaches are to be called out for not tending the tire fire correctly then he's in the mix right? He sits out there, he's watching them throw, talking to them all game, checking their status and then conveying that information to the dugout.

You heard the man folks, sharpen your pitchforks and light your torches, we’ve got a Lee Tunnell to exile!

[Tom Servo]

No, I am referring to Mr. Derek Johnson. He’s the constant in all of this. The relievers change and for some reason the results continue to get worse and worse.
Yeah maybe. But why are his starters doing fairly well? You were especially on him hard for Castillo but Castillo, unlike Suarez, has gotten his act together. Is Johnson just totally ignoring the bullpen or what?

[Wonderful Monds]

You heard the man folks, sharpen your pitchforks and light your torches, we’ve got a Lee Tunnell to exile!

Damn, speaking of……


To think I registered around this time in 2006 and the team is in basically the same position as back then. Great offense, solid-to-good starting, and a terrible bullpen.

Time to trade Naquin and Alejo Lopez for 2021 Gary Majewski and Bill Bray.

Our BP coach sure does have an interesting resume………

https://i.imgur.com/oWslsq4.jpg

[KeefeCato]

One of many issues with the Reds bullpen is the chaos of it. A good bullpen will have a structure with predefined roles that the relievers have. You have a closer at the backend and then set up guys and middle inning guys.

Besides Antone as the hero to save a game and maybe Sims, the pen seems to be a constantly changing cast of different guys trying out for different roles. There is very little consistency.

Brantley says this as well.

[Tom Servo]

Damn, speaking of……



Our BP coach sure does have an interesting resume………

https://i.imgur.com/oWslsq4.jpg
lmao wow

[Falls City Beer]

Another Antone? Who might that be that is available?

Either way, no, you don’t trade one of the best trade chips in baseball for a reliever.

Good luck getting much more back from a 2 month rental. Maybe a reliever and a bench bat.

[Falls City Beer]

Is he gone?

You, I don't know that do we?

Why pretend we do?

Now as for trading him, who is looking for bats is my first question. My second is if they are looking for bats then do they have arms? Any of us here can say... "Trade Winker or Cast for an arm" but to who really? Trade deadlines tend to be pitcher heavy, FA to be heavy and salary dumps. I don't see either of those guys as a chip, plus I try not to cut off my nose to spite my face

So let a guy who is going to opt out with the year he’s having just run his contract out with no return? And yeah Cast is unquestionably a chip. A no-doubter.

[M2]

Our BP coach sure does have an interesting resume………

https://i.imgur.com/oWslsq4.jpg

The most interesting thing on his resume is not listed there, but it is referenced here (http://1985topps.blogspot.com/2012/02/21-lee-tunnell.html).


Something you might not know: Tunnell was arrested for offering to engage in an act of prostitution in 2009, according to this report, which is particularly jarring considering Tunnell helped form the Ambassadors, an evangelical baseball team made up of members who spread their faith while playing baseball and conducting baseball clinics.

[Griffey012]

Dear Bob,

Were you watching today?

Me too.

Signed,

Common Sense

Did you see Garrett close it down? That’s improvement. - Banana Bob

[RedsFanInMS]

One of many issues with the Reds bullpen is the chaos of it. A good bullpen will have a structure with predefined roles that the relievers have. You have a closer at the backend and then set up guys and middle inning guys.

Besides Antone as the hero to save a game and maybe Sims, the pen seems to be a constantly changing cast of different guys trying out for different roles. There is very little consistency.

I haven't thought about this, but you might be on to something here. I'm sure it's much easier knowing if I'm the closer, set up man, LH specialist, long relief, mop up guy, etc. Our guys might be a mop up guy one night, and the closer a few nights later. Very inconsistent. Why is this? Is it because Bell doesn't know how to manage a bullpen? Is it because we have a bunch of AAAA pitchers and Bell is just trying to piece together what he can each night? Is it a little of both?

[Falls City Beer]

Another Antone? Who might that be that is available?

Either way, no, you don’t trade one of the best trade chips in baseball for a reliever.

So do you hold em? What if he does the most likely thing and opts out?

[Mitri]

I think we are going to see unprecedented volatility in pitching for the remainder of this year without sticky stuff. Reds, at least their bullpen, have nowhere nowhere to go but up. I haven’t been too discouraged by the past week - at least not by the player performance. Go and get a couple of arms - 1 starter (because they’re out there) and one high quality reliever- and see what happens. There’s a lot to love about team. A lot has to go right, but a lot has to go right when you sell, too.

[REDREAD]

Bob has to be willing to listen to Krall. It doesn't seem like he wants to.

Zero problem firing him, but it isn't going to matter unless Bob is willing to bring someone in and let them run Baseball Operations.


Who is available out there that would be able to run the team well (and that Bob would allow to do their job)?

Well, I will concede that it's a joint problem with Krall and Bob.
Bob has listened to Walt and Dick Williams, so he can be convinced..
Krall had 3 million to improve the team, and he chose Dolittle and Bedrosian, so he's not blameless.
I guess I figure it's the GM's job to work around a bad owner, other GMs have to do it too.
If Krall had done one good move since he took over, I"d be more inclined to believe he's got some skill.
Ok, inviting Naquin to spring training was a good move.. but how about a good move where there's some skin in the game..

[REDREAD]

I stated this earlier, but want to emphasize:

No matter what the Reds plan is, no matter what money they have to spend, it will be difficult for them to add relievers. Nearly every team is in need of relievers. Nearly every team has a few relievers with a 6+ ERA. Most teams are near competitive.

There will an ugly bidding war for nearly every reliever that is available. Teams likely will have to overpay this deadline for relievers, in terms of prospect. I only see those teams that are solidly in contention to go deep into the playoffs to make any big trades this deadline. Those that are on the edge of .500 will likely stay pat.

I don't think so. In the last 20 years, most relievers traded at the deadline have not cost much.
A few exceptions like Brian Giles for Rincon (I think that was it?) , but 90% of the time, the cost is not very high.
There's relievers out there that teams want to unload, because about 1/3 of the teams at any given time are tanking now..

[757690]

So do you hold em? What if he does the most likely thing and opts out?

You’re one of the few at this point in time who thinks the Reds are already out of contention.

If the Reds think they have a shot at the postseason, they keep Castellanos for that run, then get the draft pick if he opts out.

If the Reds think they are out of it by the trade deadline, then you trade Castellanos for a something longer term than a reliever.

Trading him now for a relievers makes little sense.

[757690]

I don't think so. In the last 20 years, most relievers traded at the deadline have not cost much.
A few exceptions like Brian Giles for Rincon (I think that was it?) , but 90% of the time, the cost is not very high.
There's relievers out there that teams want to unload, because about 1/3 of the teams at any given time are tanking now..

This is a unique year. Every team is looking for relief help and there is very little available. I put up a stat earlier that there are over 60 relievers this year with an ERA over 6! Over 6!. You almost never saw teams with a reliever that bad, let alone nearly every team having more than 1.

[REDREAD]

Ok, great. What's the list of guys like that?

a. Reliably solid
b. Available for a pair of mediocre prospects
c. Make less than $2MM the rest of the season (I doubt you'd be happy with the Reds paying a higher prospect price to offset salary)

I suspect the list is pretty short. I did a quick pass and here's what I found.

Qualified relievers w/ xFIP under 4.00: 86
On a team w/ .450 or less win%*: 18
Make <$4MM in 2021: still 18 (turns out bad teams don't typically have/keep expensive relievers)

Here's the list. Which guys from this would you feel happy about the Reds acquiring? Which guy would make you feel like Krall materially improved the bullpen?



Name Team ERA FIP xFIP
Taylor Clarke ARI 3.74 3.22 3.90
Cesar Valdez BAL 5.74 2.86 3.35
Cole Sulser BAL 2.49 2.18 2.54
Paul Fry BAL 3.12 2.16 2.98
Tanner Scott BAL 2.96 3.24 3.86
Tyler Wells BAL 4.13 3.93 3.70
Daniel Bard COL 4.20 3.50 3.49
Daniel Norris DET 6.84 4.53 3.76
Jose Cisnero DET 3.19 3.07 3.52
Michael Fulmer DET 2.84 3.16 3.23
John Curtiss MIA 2.76 2.86 3.15
Richard Bleier MIA 3.16 3.59 2.46
Zach Pop MIA 6.00 4.21 3.90
Caleb Thielbar MIN 3.86 2.74 3.35
Taylor Rogers MIN 2.67 2.18 2.11
Chris Stratton PIT 2.79 3.79 3.99
Clay Holmes PIT 4.4 3.62 3.52
David Bednar PIT 3.76 3.81 2.95

You can adjust the parameters however you'd like. Of course it only takes 1 team and 1 guy. But I think the idea of trading for bullpen help is often based on the idea that there are reliably, quality relievers just waiting to be picked off struggling teams. I don't see it.

I can't wait to see how RZ reacts when we trade say, Mike Siani, for Paul Fry who gives us a 4.00 ERA over 30 innings saving us a grand total of ~5 runs. I'm not going to be upset if he does 1 or 2 of those types of deals. Simply staunching the bleeding would feel nice. I'm just not sure it moves the needle at all that much in terms of wins and losses. The cavalry isn't coming from the trade market.

I see your point, but it's kind of pointless for me to go through the list of guys that I have not really been following.
I know you wouldn't do this, but let's say I pick 3 guys.
One of them will do bad, then all year, I have to hear "But your guy XYZ sucks too".
I am not qualified to be a GM.
The Reds got Archie Bradley last year for nothing.. I forget what his prorated salary was, but they made it happen then.
The point I was trying to make is, if money is the obstacle , kick in more prospects to make the deal happen.
The point was not "There's an endless number of guys that are only owed 2 million prorated who are good"..

If we traded for Paul Fry for Siani and he gave us a 4.00 and a .5 WAR (since 10 runs = 1 win), I'd be thrilled.
That would be a great trade. Siani isn't likely to amount to a hill of beans.
After this season, assuming Castanallos leaves, the team is likely to be on a down hill spiral.
Winker will get a huge raise. Miley might not be retained. Gray and CAstillo are close to becoming Free agents.
Now is the time to sell a little bit of the future to win now.
I'd gladly trade every Siani level prospect in the farm to fix the bullpen.

[westofyou]

So let a guy who is going to opt out with the year he’s having just run his contract out with no return? And yeah Cast is unquestionably a chip. A no-doubter.

Who is he a chip for though?

Who needs a bat.. with the "Opt-out" hanging over their head?

Personally I don't know if he'll opt out, the market stunk last year (See Ozuna) and this game is barreling towards a work stoppage, you see a work stoppage coming and you'll less likely to give out fresh new contracts to 30 year olds.

[REDREAD]

Bob would have to sign off on trading for a bad team's bullpen contract.

Bob has to sign off on everything.

Bob.

Bo.

B.

Bob signed off on a lot of free agents before 2020.. It's not as if he's completely unreasonable.
Some of you guys make him sound like Carl Lindner.
Is Bob a little misguided on holding on to his favorites too long? yes.
But Bob has come through in the past.
IF it's not Krall's job to convince Bob that the bullpen needs help (should be an easy argument), who's job is it?
I mean, if Bob is as bad as you say, what's the point in even following the team?

[Mitri]

If you keep Cast at worst you get him for the 21 stretch run and a very good comp pick if he opts out. That's gotta be almost equal to his market potential at the deadline, at least if the Reds are the team doing the trading.

[Tom Servo]

If you keep Cast at worst you get him for the 21 stretch run and a very good comp pick if he opts out. That's gotta be almost equal to his market potential at the deadline, at least if the Reds are the team doing the trading.
Yeah I don't really like the idea of trading him at all. Maybe if the Reds are 100%, no-fooling dead at the deadline I'd do it but even then it would have to be a nice return otherwise just take the draft pick. I just look to last year and all the talk about how the Reds needed to trade Bauer. Ultimately you should keep as many good players as you can around.

[Wonderful Monds]

The most interesting thing on his resume is not listed there, but it is referenced here (http://1985topps.blogspot.com/2012/02/21-lee-tunnell.html).

Damn, that’s awful. On an unrelated note, does anyone happen to have Bob Castellini’s email address?

[westofyou]

Yeah I don't really like the idea of trading him at all. Maybe if the Reds are 100%, no-fooling dead at the deadline I'd do it but even then it would have to be a nice return otherwise just take the draft pick. I just look to last year and all the talk about how the Reds needed to trade Bauer. Ultimately you should keep as many good players as you can around.

The whole "The Reds should trade their good guys and collect youth" meme is over

- - - Updated - - -


Damn, that’s awful. On an unrelated note, does anyone happen to have Bob Castellini’s email address?

[email protected]

[757690]

I think Monds was on to something when he pointed out Johnson’s obsession with flame throwers. Three problems with it:

1. High velocity guys tend to be high walk, low command guys.
2. Low cost high velocity guys tend to be even higher walk, even lower command guys.
3. Maybe most importantly, every guy in the pen is the same. Throws hard, slider/cutter and that’s it. Most have the same arm slot too. Opposing hitters are getting the same look every time, no matter who comes in. It’s easy to adjust to them, especially when the pitchers don’t have great command.

This leads to many walks and many hard hit balls to go along with the many K’s.

This obsession revealed itself when the Reds cut Noe Ramirez so quickly in spring training. It’s as if Johnson saw his velocity and said, “no way he’s on my staff.” High velocity guys in general are good, but having a diverse pen, with many different looks, is just as important, imo.

[REDREAD]

This is a unique year. Every team is looking for relief help and there is very little available. I put up a stat earlier that there are over 60 relievers this year with an ERA over 6! Over 6!. You almost never saw teams with a reliever that bad, let alone nearly every team having more than 1.

I just don't buy this.
Milwaukee is trying to contend, they just sent two relievers to Tampa for Adames.
Again, on the tanking teams, just about any player is available for the right price.

Think about it.. what if the Reds got two decent, but not great relievers. That bumps Dolittle and whoever you think is the second worst guy off the roster.
REds should be able to find 2 guys comparable to Sims pretty easily. Maybe not quite as good as Sims, but comparable. Bradley cost them nothing last year.
Time to trade some B and C level prospects, that's all it will take.

[Griffey012]

I think we are going to see unprecedented volatility in pitching for the remainder of this year without sticky stuff. Reds, at least their bullpen, have nowhere nowhere to go but up. I haven’t been too discouraged by the past week - at least not by the player performance. Go and get a couple of arms - 1 starter (because they’re out there) and one high quality reliever- and see what happens. There’s a lot to love about team. A lot has to go right, but a lot has to go right when you sell, too.

On top of that we are beyond the 60 game run from last year. Gonna see people tire out and need rest I’m sure.

[757690]

I just don't buy this.
Milwaukee is trying to contend, they just sent two relievers to Tampa for Adames.
Again, on the tanking teams, just about any player is available for the right price.


That is not a trade I would use to argue that it’s easy to get relievers.

The Rays had to trade a 25 year old, league average or better starting SS with many years of team control for two middling relievers. This is about the same as trading India for two middling relievers.

My guess is that is going to be the case for most trades this deadline.

[M2]

I just look to last year and all the talk about how the Reds needed to trade Bauer. Ultimately you should keep as many good players as you can around.

Yep, act like a good team and you might just become one. What would a good team do with St. Nick? It would keep him to take a full shot at this year and bolster the pen. So do that.

[RedTeamGo!]

So do you hold em? What if he does the most likely thing and opts out?

If the best I can get for Castellanos is a reliever, yes, I would rather hold him. But, I don’t buy that the best he could get back is a reliever.

I suppose I understand why you think he has little value. You are on record saying he’s a mediocre sub .800 bat

[Tony Cloninger]

Bob C is really Mike Brown during summer. Get more for less.

[Falls City Beer]

Who is he a chip for though?

Who needs a bat.. with the "Opt-out" hanging over their head?

Personally I don't know if he'll opt out, the market stunk last year (See Ozuna) and this game is barreling towards a work stoppage, you see a work stoppage coming and you'll less likely to give out fresh new contracts to 30 year olds.

Getting nothing for Castellanos is peak Reds: avoidable and not something this team has the luxury of doing. If Cast has an OPS of 1.000 or close to it, there’s no way he won’t get more money.

[Falls City Beer]

If the best I can get for Castellanos is a reliever, yes, I would rather hold him. But, I don’t buy that the best he could get back is a reliever.

I suppose I understand why you think he has little value. You are on record saying he’s a mediocre sub .800 bat

We’ve got about 90 games or so for his OPS to fall off. But if other teams think he’s a 1.000 OPS bat, let them pony up for him.

If you think he could bring back a starter then hey good. Great. We need those too.

[Wonderful Monds]

We’ve got about 90 games or so for his OPS to fall off.

Oh whew, thank god. I was getting worried there.

[Falls City Beer]

Oh whew, thank god. I was getting worried there.

Yeah, the history of .800 OPS guys going 1.000 in the non-steroid eras is jammed packed with these guys. Especially over 29. Happens constantly.

[Roy Tucker]

Bob Castellini’s email is [email protected] but I seriously doubt he reads that over his morning toast and coffee. Guys like that have screeners.

[Falls City Beer]

Yeah I don't really like the idea of trading him at all. Maybe if the Reds are 100%, no-fooling dead at the deadline I'd do it but even then it would have to be a nice return otherwise just take the draft pick. I just look to last year and all the talk about how the Reds needed to trade Bauer. Ultimately you should keep as many good players as you can around.

So you prefer a draft pick over a MLB player? You guys really believe this roster is close, huh? We’re gonna burn right through SD and SF in the playoffs, easy peasy. And you’re cool with the 2022 Reds minus Cast with no talent in return. You’re all in on 2021?

I think it goes without saying that the return would have to be good. I’m not advocating trading him for a Pirates castoff. But a fireman to pair with Antone? Yes. In fact, I’m all for creating a pitching staff from the bullpen backwards. Build the most dominant pen and let some randos throw 4/5 innings to start the game.

[M2]

So you prefer a draft pick over a MLB player? You guys really believe this roster is close, huh? We’re gonna burn right through SD and SF in the playoffs, easy peasy. And you’re cool with the 2022 Reds minus Cast with no talent in return. You’re all in on 2021?

I think it goes without saying that the return would have to be good. I’m not advocating trading him for a Pirates castoff. But a fireman to pair with Antone? Yes. In fact, I’m all for creating a pitching staff from the bullpen backwards. Build the most dominant pen and let some randos throw 4/5 innings to start the game.

Not everybody quit on this team before they played a single game. Go figure.

[Griffey012]

So you prefer a draft pick over a MLB player? You guys really believe this roster is close, huh? We’re gonna burn right through SD and SF in the playoffs, easy peasy. And you’re cool with the 2022 Reds minus Cast with no talent in return. You’re all in on 2021?

I think it goes without saying that the return would have to be good. I’m not advocating trading him for a Pirates castoff. But a fireman to pair with Antone? Yes. In fact, I’m all for creating a pitching staff from the bullpen backwards. Build the most dominant pen and let some randos throw 4/5 innings to start the game.

You aren’t getting an MLB fireman for a rental bat. Said fireman is going to be an integral part of the acquiring teams bullpen, and it seems like this acquiring team is in the playoff race. You aren’t even getting a quality MLB piece that will be around for a while.

[Falls City Beer]

Not everybody quit on this team before they played a single game. Go figure.

They’re a .500 team with two, probably three, teams ahead of them. With an owner who has flatly stated that they’re not adding payroll. I’m asking people to be real.

[Bob Sheed]

That is not a trade I would use to argue that it’s easy to get relievers.

The Rays had to trade a 25 year old, league average or better starting SS with many years of team control for two middling relievers. This is about the same as trading India for two middling relievers.

My guess is that is going to be the case for most trades this deadline.

This perception has always baffled me.

"Gotta trade a Jonathan India type to get two middling relievers."

Oh really? Great! We have a few middling relievers. Let's trade them all and stock up on Jonathan India types!

Except that it doesn't work this way at all. It just sounds like an excuse to not make any deals that don't involve getting fleeced.

[Falls City Beer]

You aren’t getting a fireman for a rental bat. Said fireman is going to be an integral part of the acquiring teams bullpen, and it seems like this acquiring team is in the playoff race.

Maybe not. But I’ll wager no one knows who will be available at this moment. Maybe a team is out of it, like Florida, sees an opportunity to contend next year quickly ( their run differential says they might be in the mix next year). The point is no one knows. If no pitchers are offered then sure take the draft pick. But man, you gotta exhaust the MLB talent list first before you go around settling for lotto tickets.

[RedTeamGo!]

They’re a .500 team with two, probably three, teams ahead of them. With an owner who has flatly stated that they’re not adding payroll. I’m asking people to be real.

And your idea of “being real” is trading one of the best hitters in baseball this season for a reliever?

[Falls City Beer]

And your idea of “being real” is trading one of the best hitters in baseball this season for a reliever?

An elite one yeah. Or starter. You’re removing the context here. It’s two months of an elite bat, unless he’s going to a team with tons of payroll growth on the horizon.

[757690]

They’re a .500 team with two, probably three, teams ahead of them. With an owner who has flatly stated that they’re not adding payroll. I’m asking people to be real.

The owner did not flatly state that they’re not adding payroll. He literally stated that the team will add to the payroll if the opportunity exists. The problem is that no one believes him.

[westofyou]

They’re a .500 team with two, probably three, teams ahead of them. With an owner who has flatly stated that they’re not adding payroll. I’m asking people to be real.

They are a .500 team in a division with other .500 teams


"See, dogs like us, we ain't such dogs as we think we are."

~ Marty Pilletti

This team is Ernest Borgnine in "Marty", this is season is a date with Clara and you are playing the part of Angie and Tommy.

[Falls City Beer]

The owner did not flatly state that they’re not adding payroll. He literally stated that the team will add to the payroll if the opportunity exists. The problem is that no one believes him.

He didn’t. He said they might improve the bullpen. That in no way indicates a payroll boost.

[757690]

This perception has always baffled me.

"Gotta trade a Jonathan India type to get two middling relievers."

Oh really? Great! We have a few middling relievers. Let's trade them all and stock up on Jonathan India types!

Except that it doesn't work this way at all. It just sounds like an excuse to not make any deals that don't involve getting fleeced.

How I wish the Reds had two middling relievers, lol, and if they had them, they’d be too valuable to the team to trade right now. Many other teams are in similar if less desperate situations.

[Wonderful Monds]

Maybe not. But I’ll wager no one knows who will be available at this moment. Maybe a team is out of it, like Florida, sees an opportunity to contend next year quickly ( their run differential says they might be in the mix next year). The point is no one knows. If no pitchers are offered then sure take the draft pick. But man, you gotta exhaust the MLB talent list first before you go around settling for lotto tickets.

If the point was something like “if the Reds are demonstrably out of it in a month and they can get a top 100 prospect for Castellanos they should do that” I might be inclined to agree

But just some standard “reliever” doesn’t cut it, as noted, anyone who would be interested in trading for him is gonna give us the next Tejay Antone because they’re going to need that guy themselves anyway. And no one is going to trade for him assuming they’ll be able to keep him past this year, because that’s the only reason the Reds would consider trading him in the first place is if they’re certain he’s opting out.

[Bob Sheed]

How I wish the Reds had two middling relievers, lol, and if they had them, they’d be too valuable to the team to trade right now. Many other teams are in similar if less desperate situations.

If we are going by the definition of "middling" as "average"... The average ERA in MLB right now is 4.12. The Reds have 4 relievers currently below that mark.

So bring on two more Jonathan India's! :beerme:

[Griffey012]

Maybe not. But I’ll wager no one knows who will be available at this moment. Maybe a team is out of it, like Florida, sees an opportunity to contend next year quickly ( their run differential says they might be in the mix next year). The point is no one knows. If no pitchers are offered then sure take the draft pick. But man, you gotta exhaust the MLB talent list first before you go around settling for lotto tickets.

Why would they trade for a rental if they aren’t in contention this season?

[westofyou]

As far as middling goes, until yesterday Doolittle had a ERA + of 119, it’s now 98, a tad below average, which is another word for “middling”

So is the takeaway that the Reds need two more Doolittle’s and one less India?

[757690]

If we are going by the definition of "middling" as "average"... The average ERA in MLB right now is 4.12. The Reds have 4 relievers currently below that mark.

So bring on two more Jonathan India's! :beerme:

The Reds have one reliever, Antone, who projects to be an average reliever going forward. He’s the only one any other team would want.

Btw, I believe the Reds, after today, have two relievers with ERA’s under 4.12, since Sims and Warren got lit up today.

[Wonderful Monds]

As far as middling goes, until yesterday Doolittle had a ERA + of 119, it’s now 98, a tad below average, which is another word for “middling”

So is the takeaway that the Reds need two more Doolittle’s and one less India?

I think that is generous to him for basically giving up every single inherited runner he’s had though

[757690]

As far as middling goes, until yesterday Doolittle had a ERA + of 119, it’s now 98, a tad below average, which is another word for “middling”

So is the takeaway that the Reds need two more Doolittle’s and one less India?

It’s not about need, it’s about the market. And the fact that Doolittle is right around league average proves how limited the reliever market is right now.

[Tony Cloninger]

Would you have traded Cast 2021 for Bauer 2018?

Is there a Bauer type waiting to bust out somewhere?

Unless you can fleece someone like Curt Schilling. Steve Finley. Pete Harnisch? For Glenn Davis. Even just Schilling and Finley types would suffice.

[Kc61]

The Reds have one reliever, Antone, who projects to be an average reliever going forward. He’s the only one any other team would want.

Btw, I believe the Reds, after today, have two relievers with ERA’s under 4.12, since Sims and Warren got lit up today.

Sims is 5.02 ERA. Warren 3.52. According to MLB.com which updates as the games are played.

[Bob Sheed]

The Reds have one reliever, Antone, who projects to be an average reliever going forward. He’s the only one any other team would want.

Btw, I believe the Reds, after today, have two relievers with ERA’s under 4.12, since Sims and Warren got lit up today.

I would trade Antone and Warren for a Jonathan India in a heartbeat. But nobody in their right mind would take that deal. Middle Relief is such a crapshoot, combined with small sample size.

[757690]

Sims is 5.02 ERA. Warren 3.52. According to MLB.com which updates as the games are played.

Thanks. So they have 3. My guess is that in a week or two, they will have 2, or maybe just 1.

[Falls City Beer]

Why would they trade for a rental if they aren’t in contention this season?

To sign him next year.

[NebraskaRed]

Would you have traded Cast 2021 for Bauer 2018?

Is there a Bauer type waiting to bust out somewhere?

Unless you can fleece someone like Curt Schilling. Steve Finley. Pete Harnisch? For Glenn Davis. Even just Schilling and Finley types would suffice.

I don't think trading for Curt Schilling would be a good idea. How many pitches could he even throw?

[757690]

I would trade Antone and Warren for a Jonathan India in a heartbeat. But nobody in their right mind would take that deal. Middle Relief is such a crapshoot, combined with small sample size.

Warren has 13 MLB innings under his belt. He has no real trade value yet.

Anyway, Rays traded a guy similar to India for two relievers worse than Antone. I can see other similar trades being made. They definitely will be lopsided, but the team acquiring the relievers aren’t going to care, because they are chasing a championship.

[westofyou]

There are more relievers than any other type of player in the game today, it used to be OF’s, if every team has eight on the current 25 man and six in AAA that are floating then that’s 420 relievers to go after.

Sure the metadata will shrink that number but the takeaway for me is

A. There are a lot of relievers out there
B. They don’t pitch a huge amount of innings
C. They pitch in high leverage situations
D. You don’t trade youth for them

This is where scouting and coaching really matter, obviously everyone here will say there are questions about both disciplines in Cincinnati, but I myself question why you’d trade youth or a league leader for a “middling” reliever.

There are plenty of them out there

[Wonderful Monds]

I would trade Antone and Warren for a Jonathan India in a heartbeat. But nobody in their right mind would take that deal. Middle Relief is such a crapshoot, combined with small sample size.

I don’t think most teams would trade Tejay Antone for Jonathan India, I know I wouldn’t

[Kc61]

I don’t believe middling relievers will make much difference to the Reds’ chances. I wouldn’t give up much for them.

The Reds need guys who can take the pressure off Sims (now with a 5 ERA) and Antone. They need another duo who can handle the Tuesday wins after Sims and Antone handle Monday. (Or mix and match differently.)

The bullpen has a 5.70 ERA for goodness sake.

Bob C will want to avoid all this angst about the pen and will make modest moves. But I can’t see it working very well unless he reaches a little higher.

[Bob Sheed]

I don’t think most teams would trade Tejay Antone for Jonathan India, I know I wouldn’t

Agreed, but somehow it is suggested that trading Jonathan India for an Antone type is the only possible deal that could be made.

And I'm saying that sounds like a Reds fan that is used to watching their team get fleeced in trades.

[M2]

They’re a .500 team with two, probably three, teams ahead of them. With an owner who has flatly stated that they’re not adding payroll. I’m asking people to be real.

You have no clue what kind of team they are. You thought they were going to lose 90+ games. Most of what you post is just declarations that they're dead. Some of us are actually enjoying this season. That they're at .500 with Castillo's ugly start and Gray on the shelf twice should merit some optimism. Antone just got back. Gray is on rehab. If they pick up a couple of arms to shore up the pen, it's even a team with potential upside. Certainly one worth seeing where it goes.

[Tom Servo]

So you prefer a draft pick over a MLB player? You guys really believe this roster is close, huh? We’re gonna burn right through SD and SF in the playoffs, easy peasy. And you’re cool with the 2022 Reds minus Cast with no talent in return. You’re all in on 2021?

I think it goes without saying that the return would have to be good. I’m not advocating trading him for a Pirates castoff. But a fireman to pair with Antone? Yes. In fact, I’m all for creating a pitching staff from the bullpen backwards. Build the most dominant pen and let some randos throw 4/5 innings to start the game.
Well my response is that yes it does depends on the MLB player but I'd rather keep the really good MLB player we have in the first place if we're just gonna get back a Scott Schebler or a 5th starter. If Cleveland wanted to offer James Karinchak for Castellanos I'd certainly be interested in that, but do you legitimately think they'd do really do a deal like for a rental bat, or just go looking in a direction where they don't have to surrender one of their cheap dominant arms?

I think this Reds team, if nothing else, is capable of scoring runs in bunches. Throwing that away because the pen is going full 2006 seems like a huge waste. Embrace the 06 ethos and start churning arms like Krivsky did and actually go for it in a weak division, don't just fold your tent because of Sean Doolittle.

[757690]

There are more relievers than any other type of player in the game today, it used to be OF’s, if every team has eight on the current 25 man and six in AAA that are floating then that’s 420 relievers to go after.

Sure the metadata will shrink that number but the takeaway for me is

A. There are a lot of relievers out there
B. They don’t pitch a huge amount of innings
C. They pitch in high leverage situations
D. You don’t trade youth for them

This is where scouting and coaching really matter, obviously everyone here will say there are questions about both disciplines in Cincinnati, but I myself question why you’d trade youth or a league leader for a “middling” reliever.

There are plenty of them out there

There are more out there, because the need his higher.

Contending teams need 7-9 good ones to contend. By my count, there are 21 teams still contending right now. That’s around 140-180 decent relievers needed.

Of those nine teams out of contention, how many decent relievers do they have?

The math is clear. Way more relievers needed than available. Normally, it’s the reverse. Good relievers will be available, but they won’t come cheap this year.

[Wonderful Monds]

Well my response is that yes it does depends on the MLB player but I'd rather keep the really good MLB player we have in the first place if we're just gonna get back a Scott Schebler or a 5th starter. If Cleveland wanted to offer James Karinchak for Castellanos I'd certainly be interested in that, but do you legitimately think they'd do really do a deal like for a rental bat, or just go looking in a direction where they don't have to surrender one of their cheap dominant arms?

I think this Reds team, if nothing else, is capable of scoring runs in bunches. Throwing that away because the pen is going full 2006 seems like a huge waste. Embrace the 06 ethos and start churning arms like Krivsky did and actually go for it in a weak division, don't just fold your tent because of Sean Doolittle.

Yeah there are guys out there you could get without trading away cores of your lineup Felipe Lopez and Austin Kearns style. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you could get Givens from the Rockies for very little and he’s affordable, and would be a massive upgrade in the pen even with his FIP. The Reds need to be making those deals bare minimum.

[Falls City Beer]

You have no clue what kind of team they are. You thought they were going to lose 90+ games. Most of what you post is just declarations that they're dead. Some of us are actually enjoying this season. That they're at .500 with Castillo's ugly start and Gray on the shelf twice should merit some optimism. Antone just got back. Gray is on rehab. If they pick up a couple of arms to shore up the pen, it's even a team with potential upside. Certainly one worth seeing where it goes.

And you saw an 85+ team. That won’t happen either. They’re probably a 75 win team if they stay healthy.

[Falls City Beer]

Well my response is that yes it does depends on the MLB player but I'd rather keep the really good MLB player we have in the first place if we're just gonna get back a Scott Schebler or a 5th starter. If Cleveland wanted to offer James Karinchak for Castellanos I'd certainly be interested in that, but do you legitimately think they'd do really do a deal like for a rental bat, or just go looking in a direction where they don't have to surrender one of their cheap dominant arms?

I think this Reds team, if nothing else, is capable of scoring runs in bunches. Throwing that away because the pen is going full 2006 seems like a huge waste. Embrace the 06 ethos and start churning arms like Krivsky did and actually go for it in a weak division, don't just fold your tent because of Sean Doolittle.

The entire bullpen is an absolute train wreck. They have one good reliever. What are you talking about? They have two reliable starters, three if they can get Gray back healthy. This team is not set up to climb over two or three teams.

[Griffey012]

To sign him next year.

Why give up a good asset when you could just sign him when he opts out?

[757690]

The entire bullpen is an absolute train wreck. They have one good reliever. What are you talking about? They have two reliable starters, three if they can get Gray back healthy. This team is not set up to climb over two or three teams.

Castillo has been reliable for over a month now. But we all know you think he’s a bum.

Anyway, many teams are contending right now with a rotation that is way worse than the Reds.

[M2]

And you saw an 85+ team. That won’t happen either. They’re probably a 75 win team if they stay healthy.

Oh, I'm feeling better about 85 wins all the time. Pretty much every time a righted Castillo takes the mound.

[Tony Cloninger]

I don't think trading for Curt Schilling would be a good idea. How many pitches could he even throw?

Sarcasm good. Fire. Bad!!

[Falls City Beer]

Why give up a good asset when you could just sign him when he opts out?

I’m guessing they might wager they have an inside track. I don’t know. Teams do strange things. You’re a Reds’ fan. You should know.

- - - Updated - - -


Oh, I'm feeling better about 85 wins all the time. Pretty much every time a righted Castillo takes the mound.

Those two or three starts sure make me feel better.

[Falls City Beer]

Castillo has been reliable for over a month now. But we all know you think he’s a bum.

Anyway, many teams are contending right now with a rotation that is way worse than the Reds.

No, no one is contending with a “way worse” rotation.

[M2]

The entire bullpen is an absolute train wreck.

And yet they're .500. Again, I know this is like trying to describe snow to someone from an desert tribe, but keeping themselves in the mix despite a flaw that would kill many teams (and that can be corrected) is reason for optimism.

[Wonderful Monds]

The entire bullpen is an absolute train wreck. They have one good reliever. What are you talking about? They have two reliable starters, three if they can get Gray back healthy. This team is not set up to climb over two or three teams.

Gray
Castillo
Mahle
Miley

Seems like a pretty good rotation to me, no matter who the 5th man is

[Falls City Beer]

Gray
Castillo
Mahle
Miley

Seems like a pretty good rotation to me, no matter who the 5th man is

Sure if they’re all healthy and pitching well. But that only applies to 2 of them.

[Falls City Beer]

Another thing to keep in mind: the Cards and Brewers get to whip up on the D-Backs, a team that absolutely stoved our skulls in.

[Kc61]

Month of June, Reds starters with 3.26 ERA. Reds relievers 6.58.

[Tom Servo]

The entire bullpen is an absolute train wreck. They have one good reliever. What are you talking about? They have two reliable starters, three if they can get Gray back healthy. This team is not set up to climb over two or three teams.
Your guys the Cardinals have a bullpen as bad as ours with a less productive offense. Chicago has a pretty good offense but a paper thin rotation and a pen due for regression, and Milwaukee has the best pitching by far but absolutely no offense.

If you're arguing that it isn't even worth winning the division because the Reds would just get swept out by SF or SD, we're simply on different levels here. I'm over the rebuild stuff that sells the promise of some sustainable future that no one can actually promise, I want to watch October baseball with the Reds in it.

[757690]

No, no one is contending with a “way worse” rotation.

Reds have the 12th best rotation according to fWAR. The Cubs and Cardinals are way behind them. Only Milwaukee has a better rotation in the division.

[M2]

I want to watch October baseball with the Reds in it.

Hell, I'm good with June/July baseball with the Reds playing like they want it.

[Griffey012]

Your guys the Cardinals have a bullpen as bad as ours with a less productive offense. Chicago has a pretty good offense but a paper thin rotation and a pen due for regression, and Milwaukee has the best pitching by far but absolutely no offense.

If you're arguing that it isn't even worth winning the division because the Reds would just get swept out by SF or SD, we're simply on different levels here. I'm over the rebuild stuff that sells the promise of some sustainable future that no one can actually promise, I want to watch October baseball with the Reds in it.

That’s why I still think the Reds are the best team in the division. The bullpen should be the easiest place to fix. They have to make some moves, but adding a good relief arm or two and calling up Green and Lodolo is going to be a lot easier than fixing the holes the other division contenders have.

Now working against the Reds is crappy ownership, the Brewers and Cardinals get a leg up there. Ricketts not so much.

[M2]

Gray
Castillo
Mahle
Miley

Seems like a pretty good rotation to me, no matter who the 5th man is


Month of June, Reds starters with 3.26 ERA. Reds relievers 6.58.


Reds have the 12th best rotation according to fWAR. The Cubs and Cardinals are way behind them. Only Milwaukee has a better rotation in the division.

But aside from that and that and that, you have to admit the rotation is the dirt worst and completely hopeless.

[Falls City Beer]

Your guys the Cardinals have a bullpen as bad as ours with a less productive offense. Chicago has a pretty good offense but a paper thin rotation and a pen due for regression, and Milwaukee has the best pitching by far but absolutely no offense.

If you're arguing that it isn't even worth winning the division because the Reds would just get swept out by SF or SD, we're simply on different levels here. I'm over the rebuild stuff that sells the promise of some sustainable future that no one can actually promise, I want to watch October baseball with the Reds in it.

There’s a difference between prepping for next year and selling off the team. How will you feel if they end the season 5 games out, an untraded and leaving Castellanos, a still horrible pen, an older Gray and a millstone contract (Moose) that the team will use to justify no spending increases in the off-season?

I like exuberance. I really do. I like spontaneity and getting caught in the moment. I hate tanking. More than anything. But this team is not equipped for the postseason, forget going deep in the postseason.

[Falls City Beer]

Reds have the 12th best rotation according to fWAR. The Cubs and Cardinals are way behind them. Only Milwaukee has a better rotation in the division.

The Cards are tied with us. I’d say they aren’t contending either. And the Cubs’ rotation isn’t “way worse.”

[Falls City Beer]

That’s why I still think the Reds are the best team in the division. The bullpen should be the easiest place to fix. They have to make some moves, but adding a good relief arm or two and calling up Green and Lodolo is going to be a lot easier than fixing the holes the other division contenders have.

Now working against the Reds in crappy ownership, the Brewers and Cardinals get a leg up there. Ricketts not so much.

Do you really believe this team will promote Greene and Lodolo? I don’t, but I’m very much in favor of it.

[Griffey012]

Do you really believe this team will promote Greene and Lodolo? I don’t, but I’m very much in favor of it.

If Lodolo continues to pitch well for sure, Greene likely out of the pen if they are in contention in August, I just don’t know what kind of innings limit he has.

Id say that’s more likely than them making a quality trade for pen help.

[M2]

There’s a difference between prepping for next year and selling off the team. How will you feel if they end the season 5 games out, an untraded and leaving Castellanos, a still horrible pen, an older Gray and a millstone contract (Moose) that the team will use to justify no spending increases in the off-season?

Fine. Take the draft pick and reload with the $16M back in your pocket.


I like exuberance. I really do. I like spontaneity and getting caught in the moment.

You're going to need to use this line on people who haven't spent 20 years watching you prove the contrary.


I hate tanking. More than anything. But this team is not equipped for the postseason, forget going deep in the postseason.

Not taking your word for it.

[westofyou]

Your guys the Cardinals have a bullpen as bad as ours with a less productive offense. Chicago has a pretty good offense but a paper thin rotation and a pen due for regression, and Milwaukee has the best pitching by far but absolutely no offense.

If you're arguing that it isn't even worth winning the division because the Reds would just get swept out by SF or SD, we're simply on different levels here. I'm over the rebuild stuff that sells the promise of some sustainable future that no one can actually promise, I want to watch October baseball with the Reds in it.

August and September are better when you contend, trading for magic beans is crap

[herbdizzle]

It's not that hard. A proactive front office would be on the phone with the 8 worst record teams that would take a flyer on a prospect for MLB reliever. Paul Fry from Baltimore is the perfect example. Left handed slightly above average reliever on a crap team that would take anything to be rid of his modest salary. A trade such as Friedl + Alf Rod would get him tomorrow. That's the type of move we should be making.

We need 3-4 relievers. I'm willing to clear out our C level prospects to retool this pen. Gimme 3 Paul Fry level types in the next 7-14 days and I think we could salvage a shot.

[Griffey012]

It's not that hard. A proactive front office would be on the phone with the 8 worst record teams that would take a flyer on a prospect for MLB reliever. Paul Fry from Baltimore is the perfect example. Left handed slightly above average reliever on a crap team that would take anything to be rid of his modest salary. A trade such as Friedl + Alf Rod would get him tomorrow. That's the type of move we should be making.

We need 3-4 relievers. I'm willing to clear out our C level prospects to retool this pen. Gimme 3 Paul Fry level types in the next 7-14 days and I think we could salvage a shot.

Only problem is Paul Fry will drink whatever magic potion our bullpen does and carry a BB/9 of 6 and HR/9 of 3

[Ron Madden]

Lance McAlister @LanceMcAlister

When is ownership/front office going to feel this? Engage in this? Care about this?
What happened to
"just not gonna lose anymore"
"gonna bring championship baseball back"
"If momma's not happy, nobody is happy?"
Where did that go?QUOTE

if this team was 27-47 w/ worst pen in MLB it would be one thing.
This team is 36-36 and fighting their collective asses off. In a winnable division. Yet every time they put runs on the board, they have to turn around and score more.

[Griffey012]

Glad to see the local media starting to press the issue. Mo Egger had a nice write up in the athletic recently.

[westofyou]

Problem is the local press is selling clicks and baseball doesn’t usually move until the needle is almost empty.

The onus on an immediate fix is internal, count on discussions about who isn’t sexy anymore, India and Cast are not on that list

[REDREAD]

As far as middling goes, until yesterday Doolittle had a ERA + of 119, it’s now 98, a tad below average, which is another word for “middling”

So is the takeaway that the Reds need two more Doolittle’s and one less India?

The takeaway is that ERA+ is not a good way to evaluate a reliever.

[Moose Herd]

Sure if they’re all healthy and pitching well. But that only applies to 2 of them.

Since 5/23 (28 games) (one month)

The Reds starters have a 3.05 ERA, which is 5th in MLB (4th in NL).

But sure, they only have two reliable starters.

(MIL is 9th, CHI 16th, STL 24th, PIT 25th).


Offensively, they are 7th in the majors in Runs scored over the last month (3rd in the NL)

(MIL 11th, CHI 21th, PIT 27th, STL 30th)


Get a couple of relievers and there is absolutely no reason to think this team can't win the division.

[Coopdaddy67]

It's not that hard. A proactive front office would be on the phone with the 8 worst record teams that would take a flyer on a prospect for MLB reliever. Paul Fry from Baltimore is the perfect example. Left handed slightly above average reliever on a crap team that would take anything to be rid of his modest salary. A trade such as Friedl + Alf Rod would get him tomorrow. That's the type of move we should be making.

We need 3-4 relievers. I'm willing to clear out our C level prospects to retool this pen. Gimme 3 Paul Fry level types in the next 7-14 days and I think we could salvage a shot.

I'm all for the idea of adding RPs if it's cost effective prospect-wise, but the idea you could get Fry for Friedl/Rodriguez is pretty unrealistic. He's ptiched very well 3 of his 4 years in the majors and is under team control for 3 more years. The Orioles could do a lot better than that package, especially given how in-demand RPs are going to be at the deadline.

[Tony Cloninger]

Nick Vincent is available after being released from his contract when he wasn’t called up by Texas. Who is Nick Vincent? Well he pitches in relief. He has an arm and he’s available. So he’s what this team would need.

[JFLegal]

more of the same. "jeff hoffman to the rescue" is not a real plan. it's just more throwing stuff against the wall and hoping it sticks.

[757690]

We can probably cross one name off the list of potential help from the minors:

From Nightengale twitter:

#Reds pitching prospect Reiver Sanmartin was ejected for foreign substances at Triple-A Louisville last night.

[kaldaniels]

The amount of Rainman-like savants on the game threads who somehow think they know the combination to success with our current bullpen is really fascinating to me.

[Falls City Beer]

The amount of Rainman-like savants on the game threads who somehow think they know the combination to success with our current bullpen is really fascinating to me.

A cake made with seven pieces of crap is going to be a cake made of crap regardless of the amount of each individual turd used.

[savafan]

Hypothetical: if part of the solution to fixing this team’s bullpen problem was bringing Roberto Osuna back from the Mexican League, would you be on board?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[schroomytunes]

Hypothetical: if part of the solution to fixing this team’s bullpen problem was bringing Roberto Osuna back from the Mexican League, would you be on board?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would in a heartbeat!!! he's a dirtbag but baseball and sports are full of them!!

[Wonderful Monds]

Hypothetical: if part of the solution to fixing this team’s bullpen problem was bringing Roberto Osuna back from the Mexican League, would you be on board?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah

[redsfan9988]

Nick Vincent is available after being released from his contract when he wasn’t called up by Texas. Who is Nick Vincent? Well he pitches in relief. He has an arm and he’s available. So he’s what this team would need.

Too late. He signed with the Twins.

[redsfan9988]

Hypothetical: if part of the solution to fixing this team’s bullpen problem was bringing Roberto Osuna back from the Mexican League, would you be on board?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah... we got some bad pub from Thom last year... signing a wife-beater carries pretty significant risk and baggage. If he comes back and pitches great, maybe it plays like a redemption story, but I doubt it. If he comes back and sucks, you’ve got egg on your face for nothing.

[savafan]

Nah... we got some bad pub from Thom last year... signing a wife-beater carries pretty significant risk and baggage. If he comes back and pitches great, maybe it plays like a redemption story, but I doubt it. If he comes back and sucks, you’ve got egg on your face for nothing.

Okay, here’s another hypothetical. Say that the Reds were somehow able to swing a deal with the Yankees to reacquire Aroldis Chapman. Would you welcome him back with open arms?

It’s the same scenario, right down to the fact that both men were closers on World Series championship teams after serving their suspensions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CaiGuy]

Nah... we got some bad pub from Thom last year... signing a wife-beater carries pretty significant risk and baggage. If he comes back and pitches great, maybe it plays like a redemption story, but I doubt it. If he comes back and sucks, you’ve got egg on your face for nothing.

I don't think fans are as noble as you do. If was shutting down the 9th inning for the Reds, I doubt many would care or even know about his dirtbaggery.

[Bob Sheed]

Okay, here’s another hypothetical. Say that the Reds were somehow able to swing a deal with the Yankees to reacquire Aroldis Chapman. Would you welcome him back with open arms?

It’s the same scenario, right down to the fact that both men were closers on World Series championship teams after serving their suspensions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure! I'd even be generous enough to offer the Yankees the equivalent of what they offered us for Chapman.

Isn't that generous of me? :lol:

[savafan]

Sure! I'd even be generous enough to offer the Yankees the equivalent of what they offered us for Chapman.

Isn't that generous of me? :lol:

I’d be all about that too!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[757690]

Okay, here’s another hypothetical. Say that the Reds were somehow able to swing a deal with the Yankees to reacquire Aroldis Chapman. Would you welcome him back with open arms?

It’s the same scenario, right down to the fact that both men were closers on World Series championship teams after serving their suspensions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

None of know what happened in either situation. However, after an investigation into both matters, MLB give Osuna a 75 game suspension and Chapman a 30 game suspension. So the scenarios are not identical.

That said, domestic abuse is domestic abuse.

[Tony Cloninger]

Too late. He signed with the Twins.

KRALL!!!!!! He should have run to Bob C office faster.

[GAC]

This division is winnable, 1987 Twins style but winnable

And I'm kinda enjoying it. Watching a group of teams in a tight race, playing like nobody wants to win the division (lol).

[Griffey012]

How long before they try De Leon again? As a 1 inning arm this go around. After being demoted he continued to struggle out the gate in AAA in his first two appearances, since then he has 8 games, 8.1 IP, 13K/9, 2BB/9, 1HR/9, 0.72 WHIP, and a 1.08 ERA. Even with the big league club, he always ran into trouble in the 2nd inning. He seemed to do just fine for 1 inning.

Before you stone me, look at the other AAA options, guh.

[mth123]

How long before they try De Leon again? As a 1 inning arm this go around. After being demoted he continued to struggle out the gate in AAA in his first two appearances, since then he has 8 games, 8.1 IP, 13K/9, 2BB/9, 1HR/9, 0.72 WHIP, and a 1.08 ERA. Even with the big league club, he always ran into trouble in the 2nd inning. He seemed to do just fine for 1 inning.

Before you stone me, look at the other AAA options, guh.

Yeah. Unlike many on here, I don't like much of what the Reds have from within. Beyond Greene and Lodolo I don't see much possibly ready help. De Leon may be the best option but it gives me the heebie jeebies just thinking about it. I think Ryan Hendrix needs to go back down. I might give de Leon another shot and see what happens.

[RedTeamGo!]

Id send Hendrix down and call up Riley O’Brien. They are using him as a starter, but he’s a reliever. Need to realize it and start using him that way. 10.5 k/9.

[kaldaniels]

Sims to the DL - sprained elbow.

[Wonderful Monds]

Sims to the DL - sprained elbow.

Jesus lmao

[Griffey012]

Sims to the DL - sprained elbow.

Sprained Elbow, that's not one you hear every day

[Griffey012]

Id send Hendrix down and call up Riley O’Brien. They are using him as a starter, but he’s a reliever. Need to realize it and start using him that way. 10.5 k/9.

I was thinking about him as well, I thought he was a reliever but see he's been used as a starter all year. Wonder if the Reds see him as a relief option or if he would need to ramp up with a few relief appearances at all.

[mth123]

Sprained Elbow, that's not one you hear every day

I think it means Tommy John is in his future and I'm not talking about underwear.