NBA 2021-22: Giannis Domini

[M2]

All right, free agency has started in earnest. Just strolling down the Woj feed we've got:

- Semi Ojeleye to the Bucks (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em)
- Blake Griffin signing a one-year deal to stay with the Nets
- Norman Powell signing a 5/90 to stay in Portland. Somebody's got to go or that's a luxury tax nightmare
- Devonte Graham to the Pelicans for 4/47 in exchange for a lottery-protected #1 pick
- Daniel Theis to the Rockets for 4/36
- Cody Zeller to Portland
- Alex Caruso to the Bulls for 4/37
- Derrick Rose signs for 3/43 to stay with the Knicks
- Evan Fournier to the Knicks for 4/78
- Dwight back to the Lakers
- Gary Trent Jr. 3/54 to stay in Toronto
- Trevor Ariza to the Lakers
- Zach Collins to Spurs for 3/22. I predict they'll come to regret that.
- Furky stays a Sixer for 3/15
- McBuckets to the Spurs for 3/42. I really don't understand the Spurs.
- Boban stays with the Mavs
- Jeff Green to the Nuggets for 2/10
- Kyle Lowry making 3/90 with the Heat
- Chris Paul making 4/120 with the Suns, old PGs getting PAID
- Torrey Craig to the Pacers for 2/10
- TJ McConnell stays a Pacer for 4/35, I give that move three Dellavedova's
- Tim Hardaway Jr. stays with the Mavs for 4/74, so he's overpaid again
- Mike Conley stays with the Mavs for 3/72.5, go old PGs!
- Kelly Olynyk to the Pistons for 3/37
- Jarrett Allen 5/100 to stay with the Cavs
- Nerlens Noel stays a Knick for 3/32
- Alec Burks stays a Knick for 3/30, that team really can't stand having money
- Lonzo Ball in a sign-and-trade to the Bulls and making 4/85, no idea what the trade is yet

[KoryMac5]

All right, free agency has started in earnest. Just strolling down the Woj feed we've got:

- Semi Ojeleye to the Bucks (if you can't beat 'em, join 'em)
- Blake Griffin signing a one-year deal to stay with the Nets
- Norman Powell signing a 5/90 to stay in Portland. Somebody's got to go or that's a luxury tax nightmare
- Devonte Graham to the Pelicans for 4/47 in exchange for a lottery-protected #1 pick
- Daniel Theis to the Rockets for 4/36
- Cody Zeller to Portland
- Alex Caruso to the Bulls for 4/37
- Derrick Rose signs for 3/43 to stay with the Knicks
- Evan Fournier to the Knicks for 4/78
- Dwight back to the Lakers
- Gary Trent Jr. 3/54 to stay in Toronto
- Trevor Ariza to the Lakers
- Zach Collins to Spurs for 3/22. I predict they'll come to regret that.
- Furky stays a Sixer for 3/15
- McBuckets to the Spurs for 3/42. I really don't understand the Spurs.
- Boban stays with the Mavs
- Jeff Green to the Nuggets for 2/10
- Kyle Lowry making 3/90 with the Heat
- Chris Paul making 4/120 with the Suns, old PGs getting PAID
- Torrey Craig to the Pacers for 2/10
- TJ McConnell stays a Pacer for 4/35, I give that move three Dellavedova's
- Tim Hardaway Jr. stays with the Mavs for 4/74, so he's overpaid again
- Mike Conley stays with the Mavs for 3/72.5, go old PGs!
- Kelly Olynyk to the Pistons for 3/37
- Jarrett Allen 5/100 to stay with the Cavs
- Nerlens Noel stays a Knick for 3/32
- Alec Burks stays a Knick for 3/30, that team really can't stand having money
- Lonzo Ball in a sign-and-trade to the Bulls and making 4/85, no idea what the trade is yet

I think Hardaway got market value from the Mavs especially when you look at Fourniers contract as well as Trents...he's been a good fit for the Mavs since the trade.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Hardaway's underpaid, IMO. Solid defender. Turned himself into a good shooter.

He's not an All-Star, but I think he's a first division starter. (And that's worth $20M per in today's cray-cray NBA.)

[Bourgeois Zee]

Who's had the best free agency?

I'd argue Lowry's has been awfully good. He gets paid for three seasons at a high clip and becomes a face of a franchise who has visions of championships.

Jimmy Butler, he of the four-year max contract, had a pretty great day too. $51M per season to play at age 36? Coooool.

Bulls' fans realizing they'll have two PGs next season who'll be able to run the team without turning the ball over might be there as well. That Chicago offense might be really solid. The defense... well, notsomuch.

As far as teams, I like what the Knicks have done. Fournier's a solid first division near All-Star. He's a 40-50-80 guy who'll be asked to be a tertiary playmaker behind Randle and Barrett. He should thrive in that role. Noel is perhaps the best shot blocker in the NBA (Gobert included)-- were he to have played more minutes, there's an argument to make that he deserved a spot on the All-Defense First Team. (Alas, he did not.) Burks provides shooting and Rose offense off the bench. If Quickley takes the spot of Payton, that team has solid options everywhere. They're not great, but they're adequate-- and that's a bunch more than anyone expected before last year.

I like Chicago's moves so far, but they're going to have to address defense, right?

Really like Otto Porter to Golden State. That's a sneaky good 15 ppg scorer who has, in the past, played some semblance of defense. I could see a modified version of the Death Squad with Porter at PF, Green at C, Curry, Thompson, and Wiggins.

Jeff Green to Denver gives them 412 PF, I think. But he's a good backup big who can hit the three, and I really like the Jokic in his game. He's going to be fun (perhaps) as a point center. (That said, why in God's name don't they sign a PG?)

[UKFlounder]

SGA 5 years, $172 million max extension from OKC

[M2]

Hardaway's underpaid, IMO. Solid defender. Turned himself into a good shooter.

He's not an All-Star, but I think he's a first division starter. (And that's worth $20M per in today's cray-cray NBA.)

He did earn his money the past two years, after torching it in the first two years of the deal. So I was unfair to him. He'll be worth the money if he continues with the more efficient shooting and more active defense.

[BillDoran]

With every day that passes, it becomes clearer that Tim Duncan was a transcendent player and a teammate.

Since his retirement, the organization lost its Midas touch, Popovich is more relevant for his political opinions and Buford/the front office make increasingly curious moves.

Three years and $64 million for the dynamic duo of Zach Collins and Doug McDermott, yikes. That roster is mediocre and trending down. It might be time for an organizational reset.

[M2]

With every day that passes, it becomes clearer that Tim Duncan was a transcendent player and a teammate.

Since his retirement, the organization lost its Midas touch, Popovich is more relevant for his political opinions and Buford/the front office make increasingly curious moves.

Three years and $64 million for the dynamic duo of Zach Collins and Doug McDermott, yikes. That roster is mediocre and trending down. It might be time for an organizational reset.

It's like they don't even want good players. Barring a star turn from Keldon Johnson or Lonnie Walker, I don't see how this team is supposed to get to good.

[adkindo]

Lakers lining up some preseason scrimmages...

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/06/29/movies/uncledrew-still/uncledrew-still-videoSixteenByNine1050.jpg

[adkindo]

Very happy to see Nerlens Noel get paid. It is so hard once you get labeled as a minimum or near minimum contract guy to get big money again. I am not sure he is worth what the Knicks paid....but he was definitely better than a minimum level guy.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Rudy Gay to the Jazz. Definitely needed some wing help and he’s been a solid reserve for the Spurs.

[BillDoran]

Rudy Gay to the Jazz. Definitely needed some wing help and he’s been a solid reserve for the Spurs.

Thought that was a solid signing. Wonder if he steals some (or all) of Joe Ingles's minutes, as a more dynamic big wing.

This is a pretty big put-up or shut-up season for the Jazz. Essentially running it back, as they should, after the disappointing playoff performance. Brings to mind the Bucks of a few years ago--where everybody said Bud was too stubborn for the playoffs and Giannis too easy to stop in the playoffs--and now you don't hear from those people anymore. Snyder's a good coach. It's a really good, well-rounded roster. Keep competing and hope some luck breaks your way.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Thought that was a solid signing. Wonder if he steals some (or all) of Joe Ingles's minutes, as a more dynamic big wing.

This is a pretty big put-up or shut-up season for the Jazz. Essentially running it back, as they should, after the disappointing playoff performance. Brings to mind the Bucks of a few years ago--where everybody said Bud was too stubborn for the playoffs and Giannis too easy to stop in the playoffs--and now you don't hear from those people anymore. Snyder's a good coach. It's a really good, well-rounded roster. Keep competing and hope some luck breaks your way.

Ingles needs to play less minutes. He can’t handle the load at his age anymore. So hopefully this will make him more effective/efficient.

Jazz had really good injury luck most of the year and caught the Conley/Mitchell injuries at a terrible time. Everyone basically had injury issues, but they were certainly right there if things went their way that didn’t.

[BillDoran]

Huge offseason for the Blazers. Lillard said he wanted real change, suggesting without some real movement he may bolt.

Thus far, Olshey overpaid Norm Powell and signed Cody Zeller and Ben McClemore.

That should do it.

[M2]

Huge offseason for the Blazers. Lillard said he wanted real change, suggesting without some real movement he may bolt.

Thus far, Olshey overpaid Norm Powell and signed Cody Zeller and Ben McClemore.

That should do it.

I mean, feel the excitement, right?

[UKFlounder]

Especially after he turned down 4 years $72 million from Dallas a few years ago. He’ll never get that all back, but he has kept fighting and working for other opportunities.



Very happy to see Nerlens Noel get paid. It is so hard once you get labeled as a minimum or near minimum contract guy to get big money again. I am not sure he is worth what the Knicks paid....but he was definitely better than a minimum level guy.

[Rojo Rijo]

Bulls are getting DeRozan in a sign and trade with San Antonio.

The Spurs are getting Thaddeus Young, a future 1st, and two future 2nds.
*Chicago owes their 2023 1st to Orlando (Vucevic trade) 1-4 protected. So it looks like the Spurs will get the Bulls 2025 1st.

Chicago is making some serious moves.

PG - Lonzo Ball
SG - Zach Lavine
SF - Demar DeRozan
PF - Pat Williams
C - Nikola Vucevic

BN - Coby White, Lauri Markkanen, Al-Farouq Aminu, Alex Caruso

They'll be an exciting team to watch

[Bourgeois Zee]

Bulls are getting DeRozan in a sign and trade with San Antonio.

The Spurs are getting Thaddeus Young, a future 1st, and two future 2nds.
*Chicago owes their 2023 1st to Orlando (Vucevic trade) 1-4 protected. So it looks like the Spurs will get the Bulls 2025 1st.

Chicago is making some serious moves.

PG - Lonzo Ball
SG - Zach Lavine
SF - Demar DeRozan
PF - Pat Williams
C - Nikola Vucevic

BN - Colby White, Lauri Markkanen, Al-Farouq Aminu

This probably makes Markkanen readily available for a song. (I suspect Minnesota's looking hard at those possibilities.)

And while I'm often a bit wrong, I like San Antonio's moves. Collins is a complete tabula rasa-- no one knows what he's able to do. But, if he's even slightly healthy, he's much better than what they had-- which was nothing. Thad Young was dynamite last season-- and completely under the radar. Dougie McBuckets can shoot, and that's the biggest hole the Spurs had. Those two moves allow them to better balance their lineup too, helping with better rebounding and (hopefully) better D.

PG Murray/ White
SG Vassell/ Walker/ Primo
SF McDermott/ K/ Johnson
PF T. Young/ Semanic
C Poetl/ Collins

There's lots of questions. I suspect Keldon Johnson will make the leap to semi-stardom after his Olympic turn, and Dejounte Murray and Devin Vassell will prove their mettle as viable starters in the league. Between McDermott and Vessell, they'll have at least one very good shooter on the floor at all times. Lonnie Walker can shoot too. So can Johnson. Add Collins as a hybrid five-out center, and perhaps they can be relevant in the West as a 6/7/8 seed challenger.

[M2]

Bulls are getting DeRozan in a sign and trade with San Antonio.

The Spurs are getting Thaddeus Young, a future 1st, and two future 2nds.
*Chicago owes their 2023 1st to Orlando (Vucevic trade) 1-4 protected. So it looks like the Spurs will get the Bulls 2025 1st.

Chicago is making some serious moves.

PG - Lonzo Ball
SG - Zach Lavine
SF - Demar DeRozan
PF - Pat Williams
C - Nikola Vucevic

BN - Coby White, Lauri Markkanen, Al-Farouq Aminu, Alex Caruso

They'll be an exciting team to watch

Did Markkanen sign with them yet? I'm guessing their cap now is such that someone can steal him with a sweet enough RFA offer.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Malik Monk to the Lakers.

He's exactly the type of player LeBron has, in the past, elevated (JR Smith, Ray Allen, Mo Williams, even Kyrie and Wade had better looks because of LeBron's ability to drive and dish). I suspect he'll end up playing starter's minutes next to Westbrook, AD, LeBron, and Gasol, with Carmelo, Howard, Ellington, Ariza, and THT as a second unit. (That's a sneaky solid second unit.)

[M2]

Malik Monk to the Lakers.

He's exactly the type of player LeBron has, in the past, elevated (JR Smith, Ray Allen, Mo Williams, even Kyrie and Wade had better looks because of LeBron's ability to drive and dish). I suspect he'll end up playing starter's minutes next to Westbrook, AD, LeBron, and Gasol, with Carmelo, Howard, Ellington, Ariza, and THT as a second unit. (That's a sneaky solid second unit.)

I would guess Monk and THT would be fighting for that shooting guard gig.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I would guess Monk and THT would be fighting for that shooting guard gig.

I suspect THT is a year away-- and would be a nominal PG or SF instead of SG. (With LeBron as the actual PG.)

EDIT: Well, I guess Kendrick Nunn will be the backup PG, as he signed with the Lakers too.

That's a great low-key signing, IMO.

So the Lakers, two-deep:

PG Westbrook/ Nunn
SG Monk/ THT
SF LeBron/ Ariza
PF AD/ Carmelo
C Gasol/ Howard

Add Ellington, Basemore, and Kief Morris too.

That's 13 deep.

Does that make them the favorites in the West?

[adkindo]

I suspect THT is a year away-- and would be a nominal PG or SF instead of SG. (With LeBron as the actual PG.)

EDIT: Well, I guess Kendrick Nunn will be the backup PG, as he signed with the Lakers too.

That's a great low-key signing, IMO.

So the Lakers, two-deep:

PG Westbrook/ Nunn
SG Monk/ THT
SF LeBron/ Ariza
PF AD/ Carmelo
C Gasol/ Howard

Add Ellington, Basemore, and Kief Morris too.

That's 13 deep.

Does that make them the favorites in the West?

If the big 3 can remain mostly healthy.....if not, all bets are off.

Also, assume Russ will start at PG....but would not be surprised to see some Nunn and Russ lineups. I think the Lakers will start Gasol....but I would not as I think he is beyond washed. It is kind of tough for me to imagine Monk starting on this team...

[adkindo]

Huge offseason for the Blazers. Lillard said he wanted real change, suggesting without some real movement he may bolt.

Thus far, Olshey overpaid Norm Powell and signed Cody Zeller and Ben McClemore.

That should do it.

I think I am the last guy on the planet that kind of likes McClemore.

[M2]

I think I am the last guy on the planet that kind of likes McClemore.

https://s.abcnews.com/images/Nightline/abc_ntl_mackelmore_130610_wg.jpg

On a more serious note, I suppose McLemore is all right as a bench guy who mostly disappears from your rotation in the playoffs. But I remember two seasons ago when the Rockets were acting like McLemore suddenly was a guy who mattered when he really wasn't.

[BillDoran]

PG Murray/ White
SG Vassell/ Walker/ Primo
SF McDermott/ K/ Johnson
PF T. Young/ Semanic
C Poetl/ Collins

Real difference of opinions on the Spurs. That team stinks. Pop might coax some play-in contention out of them, but I don't see it.

It's just a bunch of dudes. No stars, and a few borderline-rotation guys that will likely be relied upon. Old guys, underachievers, unproven youth.

I'd bet that they're not even .500.

[adkindo]

and Kief Morris too.



signed with Heat

[SteelSD]

Soo...

I'm hearing Georges Niang and Andre Drummond to Philly.

Oh, this should be fun...

[adkindo]

Soo...

I'm hearing Georges Niang and Andre Drummond to Philly.

Oh, this should be fun...

I wanted Niang for the Lakers....very underrated contributor in limited minutes in my opinion.

I wonder if Schroder's price have come down so much the Lakers should just sign him as a 6th man....future trade chip?

[KoryMac5]

Dragic…Lowry is being held up….looks like Dallas and Toronto are haggling a bit over compensation.

[Mutaman]

"Loyalty hasn’t disappeared quite yet

Less than two weeks after winning the 2021 NBA title, the celebrations inside Fiserv Forum and along the parade route a couple days later still ringing in their heads, the Bucks faced an abrupt dismantling of their group. Sure enough, Tucker – a pivotal March move by GM Jon Horst – was gone almost instantly, headed to the rival Heat. Then there was Bobby Portis, whose shooting, toughness and embrace by the Milwaukee fans seemed certain to end too soon …

Except it didn’t. The legend lives on. Portis accepted a two-year, $9 million deal that clearly is below his market value in order to run it back with the Bucks and their/his fans. He’s 26, a six-year veteran and he reportedly passed on bigger, better offers. But he also has earned approximately $25.5 million in his NBA career, talks about being smart with his money and lives a modest offseason lifestyle back home in Arkansas. (There also are some contractual advantages in this move for him, ESPN’s Bobby Marks pointed out, such as establishing his early-Bird rights with Milwaukee and an opt-out next summer.)"

https://www.nba.com/news/5-takeaways-from-the-first-24-hours-of-nba-free-agency

[adkindo]

Reports are Kemba going to Knicks after OKC buyout.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Reports are Kemba going to Knicks after OKC buyout.

He had $75M left on his contract. That’s a massive buyout.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Thought that was a solid signing. Wonder if he steals some (or all) of Joe Ingles's minutes, as a more dynamic big wing.

This is a pretty big put-up or shut-up season for the Jazz. Essentially running it back, as they should, after the disappointing playoff performance. Brings to mind the Bucks of a few years ago--where everybody said Bud was too stubborn for the playoffs and Giannis too easy to stop in the playoffs--and now you don't hear from those people anymore. Snyder's a good coach. It's a really good, well-rounded roster. Keep competing and hope some luck breaks your way.

Jazz also picked up Hassan Whiteside for the vet minimum to basically replace Favors. Solid pick up for the money and defensively at least is probably an upgrade.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Reports are Kemba going to Knicks after OKC buyout.

Well, that makes the Knicks really interesting:

PG Kemba Walker/ Derrick Rose
SG Evan Fournier/ Immanuel Quickley
SF RJ Barrett/ Alec Burks
PF Julius Randle/ Obi Toppin
C Mitchell Robinson/ Nerlens Noel

If Randle's transformation into a legitimate All-Star level point forward is legitimate (and Rose and Walker can stay relatively healthy), they're in that 4/5/6/7 mix with Indiana (if healthy), Boston, and Atlanta. That's below the top tier, IMO, of Milwaukee, Miami, and Philadelphia. Charlotte and maybe Chicago might also be interesting in a wait-and-see way. Detroit's a year away-- unless Cunningham's precociously talented.

The East has suddenly become stacked.

[adkindo]

Well, that makes the Knicks really interesting:

PG Kemba Walker/ Derrick Rose
SG Evan Fournier/ Immanuel Quickley
SF RJ Barrett/ Alec Burks
PF Julius Randle/ Obi Toppin
C Mitchell Robinson/ Nerlens Noel

If Randle's transformation into a legitimate All-Star level point forward is legitimate (and Rose and Walker can stay relatively healthy), they're in that 4/5/6/7 mix with Indiana (if healthy), Boston, and Atlanta. That's below the top tier, IMO, of Milwaukee, Miami, and Philadelphia. Charlotte and maybe Chicago might also be interesting in a wait-and-see way. Detroit's a year away-- unless Cunningham's precociously talented.

The East has suddenly become stacked.

uhh, you forgot someone in your Knicks depth chart!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7z2LcVXsA4d0ps?format=jpg&name=small

[RichRed]

I keep reading headlines about how Wiz and Capitals owner Ted Leonsis "BLASTED" Russell Westbrook. Here's what he said:


We had a superstar player with the Wizards, he had an opportunity and wanted to be traded to the Lakers,” Leonsis said, via ESPN. “And I was dealing with that as we were announcing Alex [Ovechkin]. I couldn’t help but self-reflect on what a difference it is. Here’s a great player in Russell Westbrook, played in OKC, wanted to be traded, went to Houston, wanted to be traded, came to D.C., wanted to be traded and is now in L.A. He’s an unbelievably great person and an unbelievably great player. But that’s the difference between the NBA and the NHL, I suppose.

I kind of wish he hadn't said anything but if that's a "blast", the resulting shrapnel is soft as a marshmallow.

[adkindo]

It is an old joke at this point....but I laughed when I first saw it yesterday.....

The Lakers lost a Pope (KCP), but added a Monk and Nunn.

[Revering4Blue]

Soo...

I'm hearing Georges Niang and Andre Drummond to Philly.

Oh, this should be fun...And Danny Green is returning. I must admit that I fully expected both he and Furkan to be signed away elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

[Revering4Blue]

uhh, you forgot someone in your Knicks depth chart!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7z2LcVXsA4d0ps?format=jpg&name=smallGrimes, too.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

[adkindo]

And Danny Green is returning. I must admit that I fully expected both he and Furkan to be signed away elsewhere.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

I am surprised at the money Green got.

[RichRed]

The Wizards acquired Spencer Dinwiddie to cap off a labyrinthine 5-team trade:

To WASH
Kuzma
KCP
Harrell
Dinwiddie
A. Holiday
Rights to I. Todd (#31)

To LAL
Westbook

To BKN
2024 2nd
2025 2nd (right to swap with GSW or WAS)
$11.5M Trade Exception

To IND
Rights to I. Jackson (#22)

To SAS
C. Hutchison
2022 2nd (WAS)

[BillDoran]

I think the Wiz have moved themself squarely into the second tier of the East. A lot will ride on the unproven Wes Unseld Jr.

Dinwiddie / A. Holiday
Beal / Caldwell-Pope
Kuzma / Avdija / Kispert
Hachimura / Harrell / Bertans
Gafford / Harrell / Bryant

The pieces don't really make a lot of sense as a team right now, but that's 13 legitimate rotation or young promising guys (give or take Bryant).

I really like the direction Tommy Sheppard has them going in, especially when you think of how hopeless it looked two offseasons ago.

[M2]

Draymond Green did like half a dozen heady things at the end of the Olympic gold medal game to seal the deal. The best was him clearing a free throw off of the rim. He took every extra liberty international basketball allows.

[Mutaman]

Two weeks ago these guys couldn't beat Nigeria. Then Jrue Holiday showed up.
Guess Popovich, Wright, and Kerr aren't such bad coaches after all.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Is Kevin Durant the greatest Olympic basketballer in US history?

The numbers say he might be.

Leading scorer all time. Gold all three times.

[Bourgeois Zee]

What FAs are still out there that you guys think might make a difference?

Obviously, Dennis Schroder is a guy who can put up numbers. In the right system, he's a nice cog to have. In the wrong system, he wrecks seasons. I'm fascinated with who signs him-- and for how much.

Lauri Markkanen really screwed himself over in asking for too much as an RFA, but that's a fine line. Ask too little, and the Bulls re-sign and get a bargain. I get the feeling he'd cut off an arm to get a re-do outside of Chicago. I suspect a sign-and-trade makes the most sense, but what does Chicago need? And who wants a defensive-deficient PF who can shoot?

I like Hami Diallo as an RFA and think he might be a real steal for a team looking at a wing with interesting 3 and D capabilities. He's bought totally into the hustle game, which is fantastic to watch. He's a slightly smaller version of James Johnson-- you never know what you're going to see, but it'll be incredible one way or another. Really like him as a change of pace guy for the Suns or as a sneaky re-sign with OKC.

[M2]

What FAs are still out there that you guys think might make a difference?

Obviously, Dennis Schroder is a guy who can put up numbers. In the right system, he's a nice cog to have. In the wrong system, he wrecks seasons. I'm fascinated with who signs him-- and for how much.

Lauri Markkanen really screwed himself over in asking for too much as an RFA, but that's a fine line. Ask too little, and the Bulls re-sign and get a bargain. I get the feeling he'd cut off an arm to get a re-do outside of Chicago. I suspect a sign-and-trade makes the most sense, but what does Chicago need? And who wants a defensive-deficient PF who can shoot?

I like Hami Diallo as an RFA and think he might be a real steal for a team looking at a wing with interesting 3 and D capabilities. He's bought totally into the hustle game, which is fantastic to watch. He's a slightly smaller version of James Johnson-- you never know what you're going to see, but it'll be incredible one way or another. Really like him as a change of pace guy for the Suns or as a sneaky re-sign with OKC.

If Schroder's going to need to play a season where he's got to prove he can be the lead guard on a quality team, I'd suggest the Celtics. Pelicans might work.

I assume the need for a shooting big extends to almost every team. I get why no one wants to pay a premium for it, but I bet the Clippers or Jazz would love to get their hooks into him.

And Denver really could use a Hami Diallo.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Denver really could use a Hami Diallo.

Nice call, that.

Do they have enough cap space to offer anything?

[M2]

Nice call, that.

Do they have enough cap space to offer anything?

No idea, though teams often figure out how to make money appear from nowhere.

[RedTeamGo!]

Draymond Green did like half a dozen heady things at the end of the Olympic gold medal game to seal the deal. The best was him clearing a free throw off of the rim. He took every extra liberty international basketball allows.

Yeah, people that call NBA players low IQ need to watch the nba stars in the Olympics. It’s a significantly different game and they pick up the little stuff so quickly. That play by Green was great.

And oh yeah, Jrue Holliday is just a straight up basketball player. Does it all. Fun to watch him play and you can tell he is a perfectionist. He made one mistake in the entire game last night, which was just a foul, and he was so angry at himself.

I also respect the hell out of these players playing so much basketball the last 13-14 months and not even hesitating to jump on a plane to go to Tokyo to represent their country. Holliday, Middleton, and Booker made it there hours before the first game almost immediately after the nba finals concluded. And for no money, just pride.

[M2]

Has the Olympics caused anyone to upgrade their opinion of Zach LaVine? Bill Simmons on his latest podcast was talking about a 1-for-1 of LaVine for Ben Simmons (though Chicago's got to do extra to make the money work). I forget which one of us had brought that up recently, but it's looking like a sound idea.

[Mutaman]

Draymond Green did like half a dozen heady things at the end of the Olympic gold medal game to seal the deal. The best was him clearing a free throw off of the rim. He took every extra liberty international basketball allows.

There was a play where some Frenchie hit a three-pointer while Durant stood passively watching him. Green really got on KD’s case for not getting his arms up. The next time down the same fella tried another three pointer and KD jumped out of his skin and blocked the shot.

[M2]

There was a play where some Frenchie hit a three-pointer while Durant stood passively watching him. Green really got on KD’s case for not getting his arms up. The next time down the same fella tried another three pointer and KD jumped out of his skin and blocked the shot.

Dray is the guy willing to hold the best player in the world accountable.

[SteelSD]

Has the Olympics caused anyone to upgrade their opinion of Zach LaVine? Bill Simmons on his latest podcast was talking about a 1-for-1 of LaVine for Ben Simmons (though Chicago's got to do extra to make the money work). I forget which one of us had brought that up recently, but it's looking like a sound idea.

I've wanted to acquire Lavine for a while now. I'm not sure as the Bulls have been loading up this offseason- possibly in an attempt to get Lavine signed to an extension. Not sure how that'll work given that the NBA is now investigating the Bulls for tampering in the Lonzo Ball sign-and-trade. Fines, loss of picks, even maybe an outside chance of voiding of Ball's contract are potential penalties for that.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/31981523/nba-opens-investigations-lonzo-ball-kyle-lowry-sign-trade-deals-sources-say

Ditto Miami with Lowry.

[Mutaman]

Dray is the guy willing to hold the best player in the world accountable.

PJ Tucker is the same way. First time I ever saw anyone get in Giannis' face. And Giannis was clearly in awe of him.

[M2]

PJ Tucker is the same way. First time I ever saw anyone get in Giannis' face. And Giannis was clearly in awe of him.

Guys built like boulders don't fear anyone. See your profile pick for further evidence.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Guys built like boulders don't fear anyone. See your profile pick for further evidence.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOoXZe_S3wI

[Mutaman]

A truly great song- I've been singing it for 50 years.

Is It Ever Gonna Happen

by Gene Carrol and the Shades
a/k/a Mean Gene Okerlund


https://youtu.be/aCSOS-8MasI

[adkindo]

Guys built like boulders don't fear anyone. See your profile pick for further evidence.

the head gear does not look as cool once the muscle is gone....

https://static.toiimg.com/thumb/msid-11849178,width-800,height-600,resizemode-75/11849178.jpg

[Mutaman]

I’ve told this before. I swear I heard this but maybe it was a dream:

Marty: Did you know that Scott is in the ball park tonight?
Joe: I saw him. We had a nice chat. One of my favorite people.
Marty: Yes sir, Scott Steiner , Big Poppa Pump.

[RichRed]

A truly great song- I've been singing it for 50 years.

Is It Ever Gonna Happen

by Gene Carrol and the Shades
a/k/a Mean Gene Okerlund


https://youtu.be/aCSOS-8MasI

I'm always delighted by musical surprises. This one blew my mind. Mean Gene the rocker...I had no idea.

[Mutaman]

I'm always delighted by musical surprises. This one blew my mind. Mean Gene the rocker...I had no idea.

Gene Carroll was a very hip DJ when I was a kid in central Wisconsin in the 60s. Did not learn until many years later that Mean Gene was in fact Gene Carroll .

Mean Gene also made a tasty burger- Mean Gene Burger.

17532

[KoryMac5]

Luka just got paid...

[Boston Red]

JR Smith on the NC A&T golf team would be cool.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/32005073/jr-smith-petitions-play-golf-enrolling-north-carolina-at

[BuckeyeRed27]

JR Smith on the NC A&T golf team would be cool.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/32005073/jr-smith-petitions-play-golf-enrolling-north-carolina-at

What’s the shirt wearing policy in college golf?

[adkindo]

What’s the shirt wearing policy in college golf?

Why not just go to NC A&T and get your degree.....but join a competitive regional amateur tour? I struggle to see JR enjoying being around a bunch of 18-22 year old guys all the time after a couple of weeks.

[adkindo]

Anyone watch Deuce McBride last night in summer league? Kid is going to be special! 22 Points, 7 Rebounds, 5 Assists and a Steal on 7 of 9 shooting and 6 of 6 from 3.

[UKFlounder]

Woj on Twitter:

The Los Angeles Clippers are trading Patrick Beverley, Rajon Rondo and Daniel Oturu to the Memphis Grizzlies for guard Eric Bledsoe, sources tell ESPN.


The Grizzlies, with an already packed roster, are open-minded on the futures of all three players in Memphis -- and will likely consider trades with some of those arriving in this deal. Memphis gets salary cap flexibility in the summer of 2022 with trade.

[15fan]

I think Memphis becomes Rondo’s 9th franchise in 8 seasons.

At this point he’s like the NBA’s Bruce Chen.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I think Memphis becomes Rondo’s 9th franchise in 8 seasons.

At this point he’s like the NBA’s Bruce Chen.

Rondo is an exceptionally good fit for some clubs.

His play throughout the Western playoffs was one of the reasons the Lakers were able to move through the playoffs two years ago and win the championship. He thoroughly outplayed the Rocket reserve guard and played Russell Westbrook pretty evenly, then played well against the Nuggets when they needed him, then outplayed Herro and Nunn in the Finals.

I'm not sure Memphis is one of those clubs.

- - - Updated - - -


Woj on Twitter:

The Los Angeles Clippers are trading Patrick Beverley, Rajon Rondo and Daniel Oturu to the Memphis Grizzlies for guard Eric Bledsoe, sources tell ESPN.


The Grizzlies, with an already packed roster, are open-minded on the futures of all three players in Memphis -- and will likely consider trades with some of those arriving in this deal. Memphis gets salary cap flexibility in the summer of 2022 with trade.

I think the Clippers are one of the few teams on which Bledsoe makes some sense.

I'm not sure he'll make sense this year, but I like him with Kawhi and PG as the primary ball handlers and he as a defensive stopper/ transition guy.

[BillDoran]

What a strange offseason for the Grizz.


Traded Jonas Valanciunas for Steven Adams
Traded Grayson Allen for Sam Merrill
Traded Bledsoe for Beverley, Rondo and Oturu
Drafted Ziaire Williams (and Santi Aldama)

I presume they're clearing up some cap space to sign Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr., and make a little more room for the youth movement, but in my estimation they didn't get better or worse; just kinda shuffled the cards and ended with a very similar hand. You'd think they'd be pushing to make some big improvements while the core solidifies and grows.

Weirdly, there's really not much in savings in the above moves. The Bledsoe/PatBev-Rondo trade is effectively salary neutral (when you consider only $4 million is guaranteed to Bledsoe in 2022-23). They added Adams's $18 million in 22-23 (when Valanciunas will be a free agent). Allen is only owed $4 million and is then a RFA.

Somebody make it make sense.

[Bourgeois Zee]

What a strange offseason for the Grizz.

I think they see Desmond Bane as a difference-maker as a bench shooter and combo guard in place of Allen. (That's a better choice, IMO, though Allen can shoot.) Bane's Summer League stats are just dominating-- 24 ppg on 48% shooting and 69(!) 3-point percentage. All with 3.5 rebounds, 4.0 assists, and 1.0 steals. He and Xavier Tillman look to be real contributors to the Memphis bench.

[BillDoran]

I think they see Desmond Bane as a difference-maker as a bench shooter and combo guard in place of Allen. (That's a better choice, IMO, though Allen can shoot.) Bane's Summer League stats are just dominating-- 24 ppg on 48% shooting and 69(!) 3-point percentage. All with 3.5 rebounds, 4.0 assists, and 1.0 steals. He and Xavier Tillman look to be real contributors to the Memphis bench.

I don't put much stock in summer league numbers, but I'm with you on the Bane Train (toot toot). Not super familiar with Grizz lineups, but I thought Bane was more of a 3 and less of 2, and Allen more of a 2. Either way, hope they can figure a few more minutes for Clarke. Also, love Tillman. You could see it in college. Super long arms, smart, multifaceted. He'll never be a star, but he'll play on plenty of good teams.

No idea what they're doing with Adams and PatBev and Rondo. Adams is one of the few bigs in the NBA that plays a more conventional 5 than Valaciunas. You'd think they'd place a premium on spacing, especially with Ja's shot still looking suspect. And to sink $18 million and an extra year into Adams? Crazy.

PatBev is a clown and doesn't really do anything on the floor other than make noise. Rondo's going to be a headache. Young coach, unproven team means Rondo's going to do whatever he wants. I'd just cut him.

Love Grizz drafts. Suspicious of their other moves.

I'll stop with the Grizz and return my attention to the moribund Blazers.

[Bourgeois Zee]

PatBev is a clown and doesn't really do anything on the floor other than make noise. Rondo's going to be a headache. Young coach, unproven team means Rondo's going to do whatever he wants. I'd just cut him.

I kind of agree of Beverley, but really disagree on Rondo. Rondo has a pretty stellar history-- Dallas excluded-- of helping kids get right in the NBA.

Many of the Chicago Bull kids from 2016-2017 credit him with helping their career. Cam Payne, Bobby Portis, and Doug McDermott all have talked about him glowingly in the past, as have others who've been lesser NBA lights. Both Alex Caruso and THT credit Rondo in part for their successes in the NBA, as do other guys from the Lakers. Brandon Ingram and AD are two of the best players who also credit Rondo.

From AD last season after Rondo became a Hawk (https://www.silverscreenandroll.com/2021/2/2/22262753/frank-vogel-lakers-miss-rajon-rondo-anthony-davis-thinks-will-be-great-coach-someday):


“He’s a coach on the floor. Even when he’s not playing, he’s coaching. Last year in practice he was coaching, during the game and on the floor he was coaching. He’s always learning, he’s watching film, so I can definitely see him being a head coach. I think that’s what he wants to do, he wants to coach,” Davis said. “He’ll make one hell of a coach. He knows the game really well, his IQ is unbelievable, very high. And he gets along with a lot of players. He knows how to talk to players, and he knows who can be more aggressive with, who he has to kind of just take it easy on.

“I think he’s going to be a great coach in this league if that’s what he ends up going with.”

He's been great for pretty much every team he's played on except Rick Carlisle's. And Carlisle is pretty notorious for not getting along with much of anyone who dares question his moves. (Including Luka the past two seasons.)

[BillDoran]

What a strange offseason for the Grizz.


Traded Jonas Valanciunas for Steven Adams
Traded Grayson Allen for Sam Merrill
Traded Bledsoe for Beverley, Rondo and Oturu
Drafted Ziaire Williams (and Santi Aldama)

I presume they're clearing up some cap space to sign Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr., and make a little more room for the youth movement, but in my estimation they didn't get better or worse; just kinda shuffled the cards and ended with a very similar hand. You'd think they'd be pushing to make some big improvements while the core solidifies and grows.

Weirdly, there's really not much in savings in the above moves. The Bledsoe/PatBev-Rondo trade is effectively salary neutral (when you consider only $4 million is guaranteed to Bledsoe in 2022-23). They added Adams's $18 million in 22-23 (when Valanciunas will be a free agent). Allen is only owed $4 million and is then a RFA.

Somebody make it make sense.

Repackaged and shipped PatBev to Minnesota for Jarrett Culver and Juancho Hernangomez.

It makes a little more sense. Culver is a pretty good buy-low, new-scenery guy. Hard to believe he was the No. 6 pick just two years ago. Hernangomez is good big man depth.


I kind of agree of Beverley, but really disagree on Rondo. Rondo has a pretty stellar history-- Dallas excluded-- of helping kids get right in the NBA.

Might have a bad read on Rondo, and I understand he's often been liked by players, but it feels like he's burned some bridges, and if I'm not mistaken, didn't he leave Boston on bad terms? Again, I could be wrong here, but I've always had the impression he hasn't always been a good egg.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Might have a bad read on Rondo, and I understand he's often been liked by players, but it feels like he's burned some bridges, and if I'm not mistaken, didn't he leave Boston on bad terms? Again, I could be wrong here, but I've always had the impression he hasn't always been a good egg.

Not a bad egg. Just really, really smart. That can be difficult for some coaches (ie, Carlisle). Doc and Rondo are apparently pretty close now, fwiw. This interview came out right after the whole Dallas fiasco, and Rivers is pretty revealing in his answers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imBGXlWSBLo

[Mutaman]

The champ is in the building!


https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1430738243511717891?s=20


https://youtu.be/ffthNF5jl3o

[BillDoran]

The champ is in the building!


https://twitter.com/BleacherReport/status/1430738243511717891?s=20


https://youtu.be/ffthNF5jl3o

Giannis is everywhere in Milwaukee right now. He's eating cream puffs at the State Fair. He's watching his baseball team from the luxury box. He's got the belt at the wrestling event. He might serve your custard at Kopp's. Post-retirement, he gets his law degree at Marquette and becomes a partner at Gruber & Antetokounmpo.

[UKFlounder]

Woj:

Cleveland is acquiring Chicago restricted free agent F Lauri Markkanen on a four-year, $67M deal in a sign-and-trade, sources tell ESPN.

and

ESPN Sources: Cleveland’s acquiring Chicago’s Lauri Markkanen in three-way sign and trade with Portland. Bulls get Derrick Jones Jr., POR’s lottery protected future 1st and Cavs’ future second-rounder. POR gets Larry Nance Jr.

[BillDoran]

Woj:

Cleveland is acquiring Chicago restricted free agent F Lauri Markkanen on a four-year, $67M deal in a sign-and-trade, sources tell ESPN.

and

ESPN Sources: Cleveland’s acquiring Chicago’s Lauri Markkanen in three-way sign and trade with Portland. Bulls get Derrick Jones Jr., POR’s lottery protected future 1st and Cavs’ future second-rounder. POR gets Larry Nance Jr.

High price to pay, but Larry Nance is a good pick-up for the Blazers. Nance does a lot of things well and just makes your team better. They also unload last year's free agency blunder in Derrick Jones Jr. (committed $19 million to him after he got no playoff minutes for the Heat). In Stotts's system, they favored bigs that could initiate the offense in the high post. Nance can do that, though it's yet to be seen what Billups has planned as far as offensive scheme.

That's more than I'd want to pay Markkanen, but he adds something different to the Cavs than Nance, especially when you factor in Mobley with Allen, and of course Love's bloated carcass. At the least it kinda alleviates some of the front court glut.

Chicago ate a one-year contract for what'll likely be a late teens pick and a second-rounder, not bad. They weren't bringing Markkanen back, so it's all gravy.

[Betterread]

Woj:

Cleveland is acquiring Chicago restricted free agent F Lauri Markkanen on a four-year, $67M deal in a sign-and-trade, sources tell ESPN.

and

ESPN Sources: Cleveland’s acquiring Chicago’s Lauri Markkanen in three-way sign and trade with Portland. Bulls get Derrick Jones Jr., POR’s lottery protected future 1st and Cavs’ future second-rounder. POR gets Larry Nance Jr.
Cleveland has a weird roster after this trade - a lot of Pgs and power forwards

I count 5 PFs/centers for Cleveland. where are the minutes for all of them?
Allen
Mobley
Love
Lauri
Osman

[Bourgeois Zee]

Cleveland has a weird roster after this trade - a lot of Pgs and power forwards

I count 5 PFs/centers for Cleveland. where are the minutes for all of them?
Allen
Mobley
Love
Lauri
Osman

Osman can play SF (and has in the past).

Mobley and Allen will tag-team the center spot.

Love and Markkanen will tag-team the PF spot.

[Bourgeois Zee]

High price to pay, but Larry Nance is a good pick-up for the Blazers.

Love this deal for Portland, like the deal for Cleveland, hate this deal for Chicago.

Nance is a very good part-time player. He's a fine fit as a PF/C guy who can hit the corner three.

Right now, he and Tony Snell are pretty much the entirety of the Blazer bench. That team is Kate Moss thin.

[BillDoran]

Love this deal for Portland, like the deal for Cleveland, hate this deal for Chicago.

Nance is a very good part-time player. He's a fine fit as a PF/C guy who can hit the corner three.

Right now, he and Tony Snell are pretty much the entirety of the Blazer bench. That team is Kate Moss thin.

Awful summer for the Blazers. Just standing pat despite the franchise star openly agitating for change.

As silly as it may be, they are counting on Simons and Little to be legitimate bench pieces. Zeller's not bad when he's healthy. I have zero expectations for Ben McClemore or Tony Snell. I think they're both 11th and 12th guys on a roster. Bringing back Rondae Hollis-Jefferson on a minimum contract would make sense, as would any veteran PG (hell, just give Billups a uniform).

Nance is a huge upgrade over DJJ, but by and large the whole offseason plan is hoping and praying Billups has magic up his sleeve. Olshey said as much, flatly stating that roster construction wasn't the Blazers problem last year


I don't mind the trade for the Bulls. It's some draft equity for a guy they weren't interested in re-signing. I know NBA GMs are obsessed with leveraging every inch of cap space, even if means signing guys you don't necessarily want, but I've seen that backfire too many times. Anyways, the Bulls can actually attract free agents as well.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Awful summer for the Blazers. Just standing pat despite the franchise star openly agitating for change.

The issue, I suspect, is at least partially on Lillard himself.

Lots of it is also on Portland's brutal lack of drafting and development over the past 8 years. McCollum was 2013. Gary Trent turned into a solid wing, but that's really about it.

Too often, Portland's drafted the wrong guy. Nassir Little instead of Kevin Porter or Keldon Johnson has to sting particularly badly, especially because both were rated higher on pretty much everyone's draft board. Or if they've drafted solid talent, they've not developed it. Pat Connaughton was a decent pick at 41 in 2015. (Norman Powell would have been better, but that's hindsight.) He didn't develop into a solid help until he left Portland for Milwaukee.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I had to read that a few times. The Cavs will still not be very good, but in the past year they got Allen and Markkanen for pretty cheap.

[BillDoran]

The issue, I suspect, is at least partially on Lillard himself.

Lots of it is also on Portland's brutal lack of drafting and development over the past 8 years. McCollum was 2013. Gary Trent turned into a solid wing, but that's really about it.

Too often, Portland's drafted the wrong guy. Nassir Little instead of Kevin Porter or Keldon Johnson has to sting particularly badly, especially because both were rated higher on pretty much everyone's draft board. Or if they've drafted solid talent, they've not developed it. Pat Connaughton was a decent pick at 41 in 2015. (Norman Powell would have been better, but that's hindsight.) He didn't develop into a solid help until he left Portland for Milwaukee.

Eh, they've had some hits and misses. I actually think they've drafted and developed fine, especially given where they've been picking. Retroactive criticism of drafts is kinda silly. They took Little at 25, so most of the NBA passed on those dudes (plus I'd rather have an empty roster spot than Kevin Porter Jr.).

They did whiff pretty big on Zach Collins. Packaging 15 and 20 to get him at 10 didn't work out.

I think Simons is an NBA rotation guy, probably more reserve than starter, but that's not bad at 24. They grabbed Will Barton at 40.

Outside off Collins, they've had three lottery picks since 2009, Dame, C.J. and Meyers Leonard.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Eh, they've had some hits and misses. I actually think they've drafted and developed fine, especially given where they've been picking. Retroactive criticism of drafts is kinda silly. They took Little at 25, so most of the NBA passed on those dudes (plus I'd rather have an empty roster spot than Kevin Porter Jr.).

It's not the whole of the NBA who screwed up the Johnson pick. It was OKC (Bazley), Cleveland (Windler), Golden State (Jordan Poole), and Portland (Little). Every one of those guys played similar positions and were around the same height/ weight as Johnson (and Porter, fwiw, though Porter has more positions he can play). (I'll give Phoenix (Ty Jerome) and the Clippers a bit of a pass due to position need.)

Each of those teams would be much better today had they drafted Johnson instead of the guys they did.

Johnson was supposed to go somewhere slightly ahead of Portland's pick, so, by that time, he was a relative bargain.

I also really disagree with the hits and misses comment. Trent was a good rotation guy. Who else?

[M2]

I like Nance, but Portland's not a great fit for him. Just another who'll stand around and watch Dame cook. A forward who can create his own shot and initiate some offense is what they've spent years doing without.

And I don't get that trade for Chicago. Jones and a lottery-protected pick is pretty thin gruel.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I like Nance, but Portland's not a great fit for him. Just another who'll stand around and watch Dame cook. A forward who can create his own shot and initiate some offense is what they've spent years doing without.

And I don't get that trade for Chicago. Jones and a lottery-protected pick is pretty thin gruel.

I like Nance as an energy guy who can play with Nurkic as a defense-first 3 and D guy. Dame and McCollum can cook (along with Powell), and Nance can pick up that defensive slack.

I agree with you on the Chicago part of the deal too. Jones is a 12th or 13th guy at best.

For Cleveland, it looks like Kevin Love is finally going to get his buy out. Maybe.

Who's the odds-on favorite to land him? Golden State (as a 25 mpg shoot-first center)? Brooklyn? Los Angeles?

[Revering4Blue]

Eh, they've had some hits and misses. I actually think they've drafted and developed fine, especially given where they've been picking. Retroactive criticism of drafts is kinda silly. They took Little at 25, so most of the NBA passed on those dudes (plus I'd rather have an empty roster spot than Kevin Porter Jr.).

They did whiff pretty big on Zach Collins. Packaging 15 and 20 to get him at 10 didn't work out.

I think Simons is an NBA rotation guy, probably more reserve than starter, but that's not bad at 24. They grabbed Will Barton at 40.

Outside off Collins, they've had three lottery picks since 2009, Dame, C.J. and Meyers Leonard.


It's not the whole of the NBA who screwed up the Johnson pick. It was OKC (Bazley), Cleveland (Windler), Golden State (Jordan Poole), and Portland (Little). Every one of those guys played similar positions and were around the same height/ weight as Johnson (and Porter, fwiw, though Porter has more positions he can play). (I'll give Phoenix (Ty Jerome) and the Clippers a bit of a pass due to position need.)

Each of those teams would be much better today had they drafted Johnson instead of the guys they did.

Johnson was supposed to go somewhere slightly ahead of Portland's pick, so, by that time, he was a relative bargain.

I also really disagree with the hits and misses comment. Trent was a good rotation guy. Who else?

Most 'experts/draft gurus' pegged Little - who played little (no pun intended) for UNC - as a lottery pick. And even if he never comes close to reaching his potential, he at least ought to be useful as a defender with his 7'3" wingspan.

In other words, as draft-related moves of the past eight years, Little's situation pales heavily when compared with the following - and that's not even counting the ill-fated Collins trade:

First, though, I'll deviate for a second and a list an overlooked solid move:

The Good

Draft day 2015: Traded Steve Blake and rights to Rondae Hollis-Jefferson to the Brooklyn Nets for rights to Pat Connaughton and Mason Plumlee.

Nets got killed with this deal, and "Blazers later parlayed Plumlee into Nurkic.

The Bad

February 19, 2015: Traded Will Barton, Victor Claver, Thomas Robinson and a 2016 1st round draft pick (Malik Beasley was later selected) to the Denver Nuggets for Arron Afflalo and Alonzo Gee.



The Ugly

Tie:

Draft day 2017: Drafted Caleb Swanigan

This pick made zero sense as he neither 1) filled a need. 2) ranked anywhere near the best available player - subjective as those lists can be - at #24. And just look at the players still left on board at the time: http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Years/2017.htm

November 22, 2020: Traded Trevor Ariza, rights to Isaiah Stewart and a 2021 1st round draft pick (Usman Garuba was later selected) to the Houston Rockets for Robert Covington. Portland also received a trade exception

Even with factoring the win now element into the equation, This, IMO, was simply a poor utilization of resources. FWIW, I'm basing this on the assumption that the 'Blazers (with the pick that produced Stewart, no slouch in his own right) would have nabbed Sadiq Bey with that pick. In short, Bey and Garuba would have provided more production for the fraction of the cost.

[Revering4Blue]

I like Nance, but Portland's not a great fit for him. Just another who'll stand around and watch Dame cook. A forward who can create his own shot and initiate some offense is what they've spent years doing without.

And I don't get that trade for Chicago. Jones and a lottery-protected pick is pretty thin gruel.

Agreed.

IMHO, the ESPN insider analysis of the deal nailed it: Chicago would have (very, very) likely been better off to cut out Portland and acquire Nance Jr. and other considerations from Cleveland themselves. After all, Nance Jr. provides the element they'll be missing from dealing Thad Young away.

[M2]

Agreed.

IMHO, the ESPN insider analysis of the deal nailed it: Chicago would have (very, very) likely been better off to cut out Portland and acquire Nance Jr. and other considerations from Cleveland themselves. After all, Nance Jr. provides the element they'll be missing from dealing Thad Young away.

Makes you wonder if this was all done for the LaVine vs. Jones dunking contests at the end of practice.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Most 'experts/draft gurus' pegged Little - who played little (no pun intended) for UNC - as a lottery pick. And even if he never comes close to reaching his potential, he at least ought to be useful as a defender with his 7'3" wingspan.

You're right on Little. I'm wrong on most of the mock drafts.

It was, looking back, a poor choice, but not indefensible.

[BillDoran]

Most 'experts/draft gurus' pegged Little - who played little (no pun intended) for UNC - as a lottery pick. And even if he never comes close to reaching his potential, he at least ought to be useful as a defender with his 7'3" wingspan.

In other words, as draft-related moves of the past eight years, Little's situation pales heavily when compared with the following - and that's not even counting the ill-fated Collins trade:

First, though, I'll deviate for a second and a list an overlooked solid move:

The Good

Draft day 2015: Traded Steve Blake and rights to Rondae Hollis-Jefferson to the Brooklyn Nets for rights to Pat Connaughton and Mason Plumlee.

Nets got killed with this deal, and "Blazers later parlayed Plumlee into Nurkic.

The Bad

February 19, 2015: Traded Will Barton, Victor Claver, Thomas Robinson and a 2016 1st round draft pick (Malik Beasley was later selected) to the Denver Nuggets for Arron Afflalo and Alonzo Gee.



The Ugly

Tie:

Draft day 2017: Drafted Caleb Swanigan

This pick made zero sense as he neither 1) filled a need. 2) ranked anywhere near the best available player - subjective as those lists can be - at #24. And just look at the players still left on board at the time: http://www.prosportstransactions.com/basketball/DraftTrades/Years/2017.htm

November 22, 2020: Traded Trevor Ariza, rights to Isaiah Stewart and a 2021 1st round draft pick (Usman Garuba was later selected) to the Houston Rockets for Robert Covington. Portland also received a trade exception

Even with factoring the win now element into the equation, This, IMO, was simply a poor utilization of resources. FWIW, I'm basing this on the assumption that the 'Blazers (with the pick that produced Stewart, no slouch in his own right) would have nabbed Sadiq Bey with that pick. In short, Bey and Garuba would have provided more production for the fraction of the cost.

Not to make this thread a referendum on Neil Olshey. He flat out sucks as a GM, but criticizing picks in the 20s isn't really a criticism I'm willing to levy. The hit-rate on NBA picks in the 20s is pretty low, and of course you can find better guys in retrospect. This like picking on an NFL GM for missing on 5th round picks. They've also overachieved with guys like Jake Layman, Pat Connaughton, Gary Trent Jr, Will Barton.

They also picked the franchise's GOAT at 6 and grabbed an all star at 10.

I'm here for the Neil Olshey bashing--again, he sucks--just find it strange to criticize his draft and development, which has been fine.


As for the value of DJJ, there's not much there outside of dunk contest. Crazy leaper, but I think the league's fascination with him will wear off after this contract, and he'll be out of the league. He lacks skills and his shot is that of a rec league player.

While I don't necessarily like the Markkenen move, the Cavs are building an interesting young core. SexLand, Mobley, Allen, Markkenen, Okoro (though not too high on him). Wonder if that group will ever produce any wins.

[Revering4Blue]

Not to make this thread a referendum on Neil Olshey. He flat out sucks as a GM, but criticizing picks in the 20s isn't really a criticism I'm willing to levy. The hit-rate on NBA picks in the 20s is pretty low, and of course you can find better guys in retrospect. This like picking on an NFL GM for missing on 5th round picks. They've also overachieved with guys like Jake Layman, Pat Connaughton, Gary Trent Jr, Will Barton.

They also picked the franchise's GOAT at 6 and grabbed an all star at 10.

I'm here for the Neil Olshey bashing--again, he sucks--just find it strange to criticize his draft and development, which has been fine.

Fair enough. I'll preface this by stating that today's trade is the best trade that Olshey has engineered in what seems like forever. Again, though, his overall managing of assets, at the minimum, should be questioned. For instance:

- The '16 offseason - blowing $$$ on the likes of Ezili and Evan Turner - as well as last offseason, which you've covered in detail - on target, I'll add.

- Allowing pending FA LaMarcus Aldridge to walk for nothing in '15. With not even a verbal agreement in place, he should have been dealt at the '15 deadline, as he undoubtedly would have returned a haul, even as a pending FA.

And unlike CJ, LaMarcus had a skillset as a fellow Superstar that complimented Dame, rather than overlap Dame's skillset - For example, Jokic and Murray in Denver. And they've been searching for such a skillset ever since LaMarcus walked.

Off all the issues currently plaguing the 'Blazers, that's the major one. And if acquiring such a star with a complimentary skillset requires dealing CJ, so be it.

[BillDoran]

Fair enough. I'll preface this by stating that today's trade is the best trade that Olshey has engineered in what seems like forever. Again, though, his overall managing of assets, at the minimum, should be questioned. For instance:

- The '16 offseason - blowing $$$ on the likes of Ezili and Evan Turner - as well as last offseason, which you've covered in detail - on target, I'll add.

- Allowing pending FA LaMarcus Aldridge to walk for nothing in '15. With not even a verbal agreement in place, he should have been dealt at the '15 deadline, as he undoubtedly would have returned a haul, even as a pending FA.

And unlike CJ, LaMarcus had a skillset as a fellow Superstar that complimented Dame, rather than overlap Dame's skillset - For example, Jokic and Murray in Denver. And they've been searching for such a skillset ever since LaMarcus walked.

Off all the issues currently plaguing the 'Blazers, that's the major one. And if acquiring such a star with a complimentary skillset requires dealing CJ, so be it.

These are the criticisms I'm here for, but I also think they speak to broader troubles in the league regarding player movement, but I agree with your assessment of the Blazers.

Again, Olshey is not a good GM, but if you're not working in a big media market or a tax-friendly state, you're working at a severe disadvantage. Saving money for cap space is a fool's errand. Turner was a bad signing, and he was their second choice after Chandler Parsons, which somehow would have been exponentially worse. There's really little reason for, say, Memphis, Portland or Indiana to try to save for a summer bonanza. You're just going to overpay for second bananas. It's all about development and a few shrewd trades for mid-market teams. Don't mess around nibbling, pay your own stars. Other stars aren't coming. Max your few franchise players. If they're fringe-y all star, you gotta bet on there being another level in there.

And that's the thing with Lillard, he was the homegrown dude that turned into first-team All NBA, yet they're on the mediocrity treadmill. Running out the Lillard and McCollum backcourt year-after-year is first-degree front-office malpractice. They're redundant. Their deficiencies only grow starker next to each other, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see this. Now that they have Powell, a perfect McCollum replacement, it's just bonkers to sit tight the Lillard-McCollum duo. Outside of Billups being some kind of magician, it's going to be more of the same this year, and Olshey will get fired for it. They're effectively running it back after losing in the first round to the Nuggets with a starting backcourt of Facundo Campazzo and Austin Rivers.

I presume Lillard has made it clear that he wants McCollum to stick around, otherwise it's all pure insanity. Even then, these marginal moves, Covington, Nance, settling for Nurk (on a good contract), just aren't the right type of swings that need to be taken when you have a possible hall of famer in his prime. Be creative. Churn the roster. Don't assume continuity alone will fix everything. Swing for the dang fences.

Thanks for indulging my Blazers concerns.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Thanks for indulging my Blazers concerns.

IMO, the Blazers should be all-in on a Ben Simmons deal, but a massive blockbuster.

Lillard, Anfernee Simmons, Robert Covington, Larry Nance, Jr., and Nassir Little for Simmons, Tobias Harris, Matisse Thybulle, Paul Reed, and the Sixers' 2022 first round pick (protected 1-4) would provide Philadelphia with both depth and shooting, likely making them the favorite for coming out of the East. A Lillard/ Embiid pick and roll is impossible to stop, and a Nance/ Covington forward set can focus on shooting from the corners and playing defense. Simmons and Little can be developed, I guess.

It would give Portland a much longer window, while giving them an All-Star back (to play four possible positions), a high-scoring wing to pair with McCollum, a defense-first wing to back up Powell and an intriguing high-upside PF to give minutes to.

[BillDoran]

IMO, the Blazers should be all-in on a Ben Simmons deal, but a massive blockbuster.

Lillard, Anfernee Simmons, Robert Covington, Larry Nance, Jr., and Nassir Little for Simmons, Tobias Harris, Matisse Thybulle, Paul Reed, and the Sixers' 2022 first round pick (protected 1-4) would provide Philadelphia with both depth and shooting, likely making them the favorite for coming out of the East. A Lillard/ Embiid pick and roll is impossible to stop, and a Nance/ Covington forward set can focus on shooting from the corners and playing defense. Simmons and Little can be developed, I guess.

It would give Portland a much longer window, while giving them an All-Star back (to play four possible positions), a high-scoring wing to pair with McCollum, a defense-first wing to back up Powell and an intriguing high-upside PF to give minutes to.

I like it!

Maybe need some more draft capital from the Sixers (all your firsts, please), but you can't continue to stand pat on a middling roster.

[Kingspoint]

I wouldn't let Simmons near my team.

[Kingspoint]

Aldridge's doctors cleared him for basketball. Rumors about the NETS being favored, but they signed Millsap today and already have Griffin.

A Nance/Nurk/Roco Starting frontcourt works, with Zeller, Aldridge and Little mixing in a dozen minutes each.

They were forced to pay Powell Starter money, so he likely starts. Billups won't wait long to put Nance or Aldridge in when Powell gets abused underneath and fails to rebound. Regular season they can go small. Playoffs, disaster. Nance needs 26-32 minutes a night.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Aldridge as the center in Brooklyn puts Blake Griffin back at PF-- as a backup.

The Brooklyn second team is stacked:

PG Patty Mills
SG Cam Thomas
SF DeAndre Bembry
PF Blake Griffin
C LaMarcus Aldridge

The third team includes Nic Claxton, JaVon Carter, James Johnson, and Bruce Brown.

Sean Marks and Steve Nash have done a fantastic job of adding depth so that the types of injuries that derailed their season last year won't happen again.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Playing around with a Ben Simmons deal. I'm hoping even our resident 76er fans realize Morey's not getting what he wants. Too, keeping Simmons (and watching him hold out, get fined, get suspended, or any other number of possibilities) isn't good for Philly, Simmons, or the NBA. Simmons, as the talent, has Philadelphia over a barrel and can make it even more uncomfortable if he goes public in a big way-- which would definitely happen if/ when the team decides to suspend him for being a no-show.

Not only that, the guys Morey was hoping would be available-- Lillard and Beal-- seem to be sticking with what they know and the teams they were drafted by.

At this point, what's the better deal?

- CJ McCollum for Simmons, pretty much straight up. Simmons becomes a point forward, with Powell and Lillard as guards, Covington beside him, and Nurkic as center. Philly gets McCollum, an All-Star-ish shoot-first guy, who can get you 20... on a team of guys who already do that.

- Jaden McDaniels and DAngelo Russell for Simmons. Simmons moves to PF in the Wolves' lineup and plays point forward, defends, is the hub around which the offense runs. (I love that fit, btw.) He plays about half the game as a PG as well, when Patrick Beverley needs a blow/ is ineffective. Philly gets a score-first former All-Star (kind of) who can put up 20... on a team of guys who already do that.

- Pat Beverley, Jaden McDaniels, Josh Okogie, and Malik Beasley for Simmons and Tyrese Maxey. Simmons fits in Minnesota as a Swiss Army guy, with DLo, Edwards, Towns, and either Maxey or Taurean Prince (or perhaps Jared Vanderbilt). Philly goes full defense to provide depth, plus a 20 point scorer if they need it. PatBev takes on the best backcourt guy, Thybulle and Okogie tag-team all wings (especially when he's out), McDaniels gets minutes as a point forward/ backup center with massive upside, and Beasley does the heavy lifting as a second-unit scorer Doc can depend on.

I kind of like the third option best for Philadelphia, but I've not seen enough of their games to be sure. Philly fans, which option do you like best? Or perhaps propose another deal with another team that makes sense.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Right now, my top five East teams (in reverse order):

5. Philadelphia
If they can grab a good player for Simmons, they could move up to number two. As is, they're a difference-maker short. Embiid's a favorite for MVP (if he can stay healthy), Curry's proven his chops, and Harris can score too. I like the upside of Maxey and Reed... if Doc will actually let them eat. (Thybulle too.)

4. Boston
I'm not sold on Horford as anything beyond a second division guy at this point. He could be a huge negative on a team that has to have him in the middle to be a conference and division favorite. Depending on Josh Richardson at this point seems foolish, but he was really good in Miami a few years ago. Perhaps he finds that magic again? Really, this is a vote of confidence for Tatum and Brown, who, IMO, are slightly better as a duo than Harris and Embiid.

3. Milwaukee
Love their Big Three, but Brook Lopez has a limited shelf life and beyond Giannis, they have nothing underneath the hoop. They just lost Tucker, who was instrumental to taking them to the Promised Land in favor of... who? They'll need Hill, DiVincenzo, or perhaps Jordan Nwora (who looked like hot trash in the Summer League) to develop further or have a career year to repeat. At this point, I don't think that's happening.

2. Miami
Is Kyle Lowry the missing piece? Probably not. But he makes them better. I do wonder about their shooting. They need either Duncan Robinson or Tyler Herro to become a near All-Star (as both were in the 2020 playoffs), and that's possible in that developmental system. Oladipo coming back strong would be ideal for this team, but is it probable? Their depth is really good.

1. Brooklyn
And it's not close, IMO. The best Big Three in the game, check. Harris and Aldridge as capable starters? You bet. A seven-person bench of former starters, veterans, and upside guys? That too. They'll need to be healthy in the playoffs, but they're clearly the team to beat in the East, IMO.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Right now, my top five teams in the West (in reverse order):

5. Denver
The loss of Jamal Murray for (almost assuredly) the season kills their chances, IMO. Jokic is among the best in the game. Porter is developing as a scorer. They're at least one shooter short, IMO.

4. Utah
What did they do to improve? Conley is a year older. Other teams have figured out how to largely negate Rudy Gobert's tendencies in the playoffs. Short of a huge leap from Donovan Mitchell, I don't see how they get better.

3. Golden State
This depends entirely on Klay Thompson's legs. I love the additions of Moses Moody and Jonathan Kuminga as next-gen guys who'll get a little clock while learning on the job. (That's the perfect spot for them.) I love that Andrew Wiggins has bought into being the third or fourth option on offense and the fourth playmaker. I love the addition of Otto Porter more. As a side scorer 3 and D guy, he's an elite shooter who won't have to do too much offensively or defensively. Wiseman and (IMO) Bjelica in the middle (plus Green?) is good enough. IF Thompson's good by the playoffs, they don't have a weakness beyond attacking the center spot. If Wiseman makes any kind of leap, they're as good as anyone.

2. Phoenix
They got that backup center in JaVale McGee. Landry Shamet was expensive but might be worth it under Monty's tutelage. Paul is another year older, but he'll figure it out (especially with Cam Payne capable of taking more minutes behind him). Booker should be better this season-- he was low-key bad for most of last year. Mikal Bridges has already blossomed into one of the best 3 and D wings in the game (and might have an argument as the best wing defender in the game, with the Claw out of commission). Deandre Ayton's got another level, I think. If healthy, they're going to be tough to beat.

1. Los Angeles Lakers
Again, this is, IMO, the clear best team. If healthy. With an older team, that's always the key, right? That said, even if some guys do go on the shelf, they have multiple options behind them. I love the Nunn/ Monk/ THT future backcourt. All three are backups on this team right now. LeBron, with the addition of Carmelo and Westbrook, can rest more during the regular season. (Assuming his ego lets him.) Westbrook can be reigned in with Nunn and LeBron assuming more PG control (if need be). He can also be unleashed when the team needs a spark. More importantly, there's actual upside here. If AD bounces back to career norms, this team might win 70. I don't know if they're on par with Brooklyn, but they're the only team who's close.

[BillDoran]

Right now, my top five East teams (in reverse order):

5. Philadelphia
If they can grab a good player for Simmons, they could move up to number two. As is, they're a difference-maker short. Embiid's a favorite for MVP (if he can stay healthy), Curry's proven his chops, and Harris can score too. I like the upside of Maxey and Reed... if Doc will actually let them eat. (Thybulle too.)

4. Boston
I'm not sold on Horford as anything beyond a second division guy at this point. He could be a huge negative on a team that has to have him in the middle to be a conference and division favorite. Depending on Josh Richardson at this point seems foolish, but he was really good in Miami a few years ago. Perhaps he finds that magic again? Really, this is a vote of confidence for Tatum and Brown, who, IMO, are slightly better as a duo than Harris and Embiid.

3. Milwaukee
Love their Big Three, but Brook Lopez has a limited shelf life and beyond Giannis, they have nothing underneath the hoop. They just lost Tucker, who was instrumental to taking them to the Promised Land in favor of... who? They'll need Hill, DiVincenzo, or perhaps Jordan Nwora (who looked like hot trash in the Summer League) to develop further or have a career year to repeat. At this point, I don't think that's happening.

2. Miami
Is Kyle Lowry the missing piece? Probably not. But he makes them better. I do wonder about their shooting. They need either Duncan Robinson or Tyler Herro to become a near All-Star (as both were in the 2020 playoffs), and that's possible in that developmental system. Oladipo coming back strong would be ideal for this team, but is it probable? Their depth is really good.

1. Brooklyn
And it's not close, IMO. The best Big Three in the game, check. Harris and Aldridge as capable starters? You bet. A seven-person bench of former starters, veterans, and upside guys? That too. They'll need to be healthy in the playoffs, but they're clearly the team to beat in the East, IMO.

Think you're overvaluing Miami and Boston. The Celtics have done nothing but shuffle the deck chairs (in a really confusing manner). I understand why people like the Heat, but to me they're really old and more bark than bite. If their stars are healthy come playoff time, they'll be really interesting. I think they lack playmaking, and Hero is likely more of who we saw in his second season than the first.

For me, it's Brooklyn ahead by quite a bit with a number of really big questions (namely, health and Kyrie's mental status). Then it's the Bucks. Tucker was all about attitude and setting a tone. As far as actually playing, he's cooked. He was a negative on offense and more about intimidation than actually stopping dudes on defense. Horst made the right call in not paying him. If they make the mental leap after the championship, they don't need Tucker (though I do really like the guy).

[M2]

Playing around with a Ben Simmons deal. I'm hoping even our resident 76er fans realize Morey's not getting what he wants. Too, keeping Simmons (and watching him hold out, get fined, get suspended, or any other number of possibilities) isn't good for Philly, Simmons, or the NBA. Simmons, as the talent, has Philadelphia over a barrel and can make it even more uncomfortable if he goes public in a big way-- which would definitely happen if/ when the team decides to suspend him for being a no-show.

Not only that, the guys Morey was hoping would be available-- Lillard and Beal-- seem to be sticking with what they know and the teams they were drafted by.

At this point, what's the better deal?

- CJ McCollum for Simmons, pretty much straight up. Simmons becomes a point forward, with Powell and Lillard as guards, Covington beside him, and Nurkic as center. Philly gets McCollum, an All-Star-ish shoot-first guy, who can get you 20... on a team of guys who already do that.

- Jaden McDaniels and DAngelo Russell for Simmons. Simmons moves to PF in the Wolves' lineup and plays point forward, defends, is the hub around which the offense runs. (I love that fit, btw.) He plays about half the game as a PG as well, when Patrick Beverley needs a blow/ is ineffective. Philly gets a score-first former All-Star (kind of) who can put up 20... on a team of guys who already do that.

- Pat Beverley, Jaden McDaniels, Josh Okogie, and Malik Beasley for Simmons and Tyrese Maxey. Simmons fits in Minnesota as a Swiss Army guy, with DLo, Edwards, Towns, and either Maxey or Taurean Prince (or perhaps Jared Vanderbilt). Philly goes full defense to provide depth, plus a 20 point scorer if they need it. PatBev takes on the best backcourt guy, Thybulle and Okogie tag-team all wings (especially when he's out), McDaniels gets minutes as a point forward/ backup center with massive upside, and Beasley does the heavy lifting as a second-unit scorer Doc can depend on.

I kind of like the third option best for Philadelphia, but I've not seen enough of their games to be sure. Philly fans, which option do you like best? Or perhaps propose another deal with another team that makes sense.

I think Hield + Haliburton will emerge from Sacramento. Also trying to figure out what San Antonio can put on the table. And are we sure Dallas won't do a Porzingis swap?

[SteelSD]

Playing around with a Ben Simmons deal. I'm hoping even our resident 76er fans realize Morey's not getting what he wants. Too, keeping Simmons (and watching him hold out, get fined, get suspended, or any other number of possibilities) isn't good for Philly, Simmons, or the NBA. Simmons, as the talent, has Philadelphia over a barrel and can make it even more uncomfortable if he goes public in a big way-- which would definitely happen if/ when the team decides to suspend him for being a no-show.

Not only that, the guys Morey was hoping would be available-- Lillard and Beal-- seem to be sticking with what they know and the teams they were drafted by.

At this point, what's the better deal?

- CJ McCollum for Simmons, pretty much straight up. Simmons becomes a point forward, with Powell and Lillard as guards, Covington beside him, and Nurkic as center. Philly gets McCollum, an All-Star-ish shoot-first guy, who can get you 20... on a team of guys who already do that.

- Jaden McDaniels and DAngelo Russell for Simmons. Simmons moves to PF in the Wolves' lineup and plays point forward, defends, is the hub around which the offense runs. (I love that fit, btw.) He plays about half the game as a PG as well, when Patrick Beverley needs a blow/ is ineffective. Philly gets a score-first former All-Star (kind of) who can put up 20... on a team of guys who already do that.

- Pat Beverley, Jaden McDaniels, Josh Okogie, and Malik Beasley for Simmons and Tyrese Maxey. Simmons fits in Minnesota as a Swiss Army guy, with DLo, Edwards, Towns, and either Maxey or Taurean Prince (or perhaps Jared Vanderbilt). Philly goes full defense to provide depth, plus a 20 point scorer if they need it. PatBev takes on the best backcourt guy, Thybulle and Okogie tag-team all wings (especially when he's out), McDaniels gets minutes as a point forward/ backup center with massive upside, and Beasley does the heavy lifting as a second-unit scorer Doc can depend on.

I kind of like the third option best for Philadelphia, but I've not seen enough of their games to be sure. Philly fans, which option do you like best? Or perhaps propose another deal with another team that makes sense.

First, I won't include Maxey (or Thybulle for that matter) in any deal unless a true All-Star is coming back. We're talking Lillard, Beal, maybe LaVine. LaVine likely won't be available...yet...given Chicago's effort to put a team around him. If Beal were available, a deal would have to happen soon and be contingent on an extension beyond 2022-23 as he's a Klutch client, which presents significant risk given Rich Paul's behavior in the Simmons saga. I would not move Simmons straight-up for a 2nd tier guy like McCollum, but he's a decent target.

I want nothing to do with D'Angelo Russell. He's one of those guys who people look at and say, "Well, he's been on some bad teams." as if that somehow shines him up. The reality is that he's been part of bad teams because he's the type of bad player that makes teams bad. Bad defense, bad decisions, bad shots. So that trade's out.

The third trade might work if you remove Maxey and Okogie, but that still seems like pennies on the dollar. But let's say that would work. The acquisition of Beasley (who I consider undervalued and would start) would relegate Seth Curry to the bench and slide Maxey into the starting lineup, with Beverly spot starting when the Sixers need max-agitation (Brooklyn, Milwaukee, etc.). The second unit would then be Curry, Beverly or Maxey, Thybulle, Drummond, and probably Korkmaz/McDaniels (season to taste). That would probably be decent with a staggered rotation to avoid matchup issues.

I would prefer M2's deal with the Kings- Simmons for Haliburton and Hield. But the Kings are reportedly resistent to giving up Haliburton or Fox. But they're the Kings, so who knows. I would not want to touch Porzingis unless it's to move him on to another team for a better fit.

Cleveland has also been floated, but I'm not sure that's real other than maybe being a third team in a deal to unload either Sexton or Garland.

Honestly, I think what will eventually materialize is a three-team deal where pieces are swapped in and out based on need and picks/pick swaps are exchanged. Something like a core of Simmons to Cleveland for Sexton then flipping Sexton and stuff to Washington for Beal or Portland for Lillard.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Honestly, I think what will eventually materialize is a three-team deal where pieces are swapped in and out based on need and picks/pick swaps are exchanged. Something like a core of Simmons to Cleveland for Sexton then flipping Sexton and stuff to Washington for Beal or Portland for Lillard.

I get that this is your dream scenario.

There's just so little indication that either Beal or Lillard wants out of their situation.

Washington has improved their team. A lot. That's what Beal asked for. He's also said he's not asking for a trade. That he's a Klutch client means there's remarkably little chance this gets done anyway. You don't crap in your own bed, and Philly's handling of Simmons-- and of Klutch players-- will almost assuredly come home to roost sooner rather than later. The same goes for Lillard (though with less conviction). He's where he wants to be, as he's said many times on Twitter.

Importantly, neither of them are likely to be unhappy by the time the regular season begins, and Philly will almost have to make a deal by that time. Otherwise, they either play a man short (with Simmons on the roster) or fine him gigantically, play a man short, and lose control of the narrative, thereby driving his price down even further. Because Simmons has dug in his heels, the Sixers have little chance to recoup what they think is a fair deal. They're stuck.

Also, I have a hard time believing Haliburton will be part of a deal for Simmons. (Although stranger things have happened.) He's one of two players on the Kings' roster worth a damn.

[Bourgeois Zee]

And are we sure Dallas won't do a Porzingis swap?

Porzingis to Sacramento, Hield, Bagley, and Jalen Brunson to Philadelphia, Simmons to Dallas.

Who says no?

Hield starts as a sniper, with Curry coming in as part of the second unit, Brunson starts (or, again, plays lead guard on the second unit), Bagley can be developed in a healthier situation for an upside play.

Simmons plays PG/ PF in Dallas beside Luka (which I'm unsure would work, but would love to see). He plays defense, unlike Porzingis.

Big Po moves to Sacramento to play PF in a Twin Tower game with Richaun Holmes. It makes sense offensively, and no one in Sacramento plays D so what does it matter that he can't either? They'd be fun, no doubt.

The Trade Machine insists is nearly a wash, with the Sixers getting one win poorer, Dallas becoming one win better, and Sacramento the big loser at two wins. But the Kings would gamble on upside here.

Oddly, it's an all upside trade. Which would be fascinating.

[SteelSD]

I get that this is your dream scenario.

There's just so little indication that either Beal or Lillard wants out of their situation.

Washington has improved their team. A lot. That's what Beal asked for. He's also said he's not asking for a trade. That he's a Klutch client means there's remarkably little chance this gets done anyway. You don't crap in your own bed, and Philly's handling of Simmons-- and of Klutch players-- will almost assuredly come home to roost sooner rather than later. The same goes for Lillard (though with less conviction). He's where he wants to be, as he's said many times on Twitter.

Importantly, neither of them are likely to be unhappy by the time the regular season begins, and Philly will almost have to make a deal by that time. Otherwise, they either play a man short (with Simmons on the roster) or fine him gigantically, play a man short, and lose control of the narrative, thereby driving his price down even further. Because Simmons has dug in his heels, the Sixers have little chance to recoup what they think is a fair deal. They're stuck.

Also, I have a hard time believing Haliburton will be part of a deal for Simmons. (Although stranger things have happened.) He's one of two players on the Kings' roster worth a damn.

The Sixers don't have to do anything and certainly don't have to take a substandard package for him (Hield/Brunson? Really?). Simmons is signed for four more years. And if Klutch wants to alienate Daryl Morey, you can bet the rest of the NBA GM's and ownership groups (and players) will be watching. Rich Paul already overreached by floating a false rumor that he was pulling Maxey out of Philly, for example. That quickly got rolled back, I suspect due to a phone call by Maxey- who actually would be a significant beneficiary of a Simmons deal.

Simmons and Klutch simply don't have the leverage you seem to think they do.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Simmons and Klutch simply don't have the leverage you seem to think they do.

This is where we disagree.

You seem to think Philadelphia will be fine, and Simmons will somehow magically acquiesce and, what...? Play for Doc? Be okay with Morey?

You think it's Paul and Simmons who will fold.

But why?

Simmons can simply hold out. Philly then has to either suspend him in order to add a 15th player and not pay him, or they can play with the circus and 14 players. While trying to win a championship. With a short roster and a backup PG at the helm.

In short, while holding out may hurt Simmons some, it hurts Philadelphia far more. Morey's not stupid. He knows this. That's why he'll almost assuredly get a deal done before the season begins. Because of that, he'll almost assuredly have to settle for a lesser package. (Beal nor Lillard nor LaVine are walking through that door-- all three are relatively happy where they are currently.)

Btw, I think you're seriously undervaluing the loyalty amongst players and agents-- and Rich Paul in particular.

We'll see, of course. Shortly, there will either be a deal or there won't.

We can make a signature bet on it, if you'd like.

I'll take the field. You take current All-Stars. If a Simmons trade doesn't include the All-Star, I get to make up your signature. If it does, you can make up mine. (PG, please.)

[SteelSD]

This is where we disagree.

You seem to think Philadelphia will be fine, and Simmons will somehow magically acquiesce and, what...? Play for Doc? Be okay with Morey?

No. If he's not dealt before training camp, I expect him to hold out. Philly will suspend and fine him and he can continue to hold out. I do not believe he will ever play another game in a Sixers uniform and I do not care. And no, I'm going to make a signature bet on anything, because I think you don't quite understand what I'm saying. Maybe that's me being unclear. If so, my apologies.

So, to clarify- I fully understand that he could be dealt tomorrow and hold out no hope that he will be in a Sixers uniform ever again. I just don't really care when he's dealt, I only care what they're getting back. And I think I've already noted that I'd accept less than Beal, Lillard, or LaVine. While that would be preferable, I'd take less- just not a "Buddy Hield/Jalen Brunson" hey-remember-what-we-got-for-Barkley "less" or introduce a poison pill like D'Angelo Russell.

And no, I'm not underestimating the loyalty players have to their agent. They fire agents all the time. Hell, they even sue them (see: Noel, Nerlens v Paul, Rich) and tell them to shut up (see: Maxey, Tyrese). And again, Simmons is signed for four years. If Morey wants to take a sub-optimal package (which is always available) from a lottery team, he can send Simmons to the basketball equivalent of purgatory for nearly half a decade, and he can wait until after Simmons has had to forfeit his next pay check. "Thanks, Rich, you got me stuck on a crappy team for four years and I had to forfeit millions to make that happen. Well done, Klutch."

What's Rich Paul gonna' do about that? Try to manipulate clients away from a future payday in Philly after he's already shown his soft underbelly to a kid fresh off his rookie year (Maxey)? Nah.

The Sixers will be fine. I actually forgot they signed Niang too.

Starters- Maxey, Curry, Green, Harris, Embiid

Rotation Players- Milton, Niang, Korkmaz, Thybulle, Drummond

Low Minutes/Injury Rotation Replacements- Isaiah Joe, Paul Reed, Mike Scott, Jaden Springer

Plenty of time to see how things shake out. It's not a "Simmons sits and Sixers turn into a Lottery team" situation.

[SteelSD]

FYI- This is a good, very recent podcast on the Simmons situation:

https://www.libertyballers.com/2021/9/11/22666969/sixers-espn-brian-windhorst-ben-simmons-trade-daryl-morey-nba

[Bourgeois Zee]

What's Rich Paul gonna' do about that? Try to manipulate clients away from a future payday in Philly after he's already shown his soft underbelly to a kid fresh off his rookie year (Maxey)? Nah.

Umm, yeah. That's exactly what he's going to do.

He has a history of doing it. So do, like, almost all the big-time agents.

Especially in the era of Big Threes and Big Fours and stars wanting to play with stars.

[SteelSD]

Umm, yeah. That's exactly what he's going to do.

He has a history of doing it. So do, like, almost all the big-time agents.

Especially in the era of Big Threes and Big Fours and stars wanting to play with stars.

Go listen to the podcast. Pay close attention @23:00 into it.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Go listen to the podcast. Pay close attention @23:00 into it.

Windhorst is a great interview (though I find his voice grating). I do find it odd that he mentions AD as proof that Paul works for his clients but then ignores that Paul steered Davis away from Boston and Danny Ainge (https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2019/10/09/rich-paul-anthony-davis-celtics/). But the money's going to largely be the same in Boston, Milwaukee, or NOLA-- salary caps (and player tiers) see to that.

It's the relationships that are important.

If Morey/ Doc/ Embiid/ Philadelphia (@32:00) get a reputation as being difficult or disrespectful toward star players/ treating stars as scapegoats, it'll affect that franchise for years. (Look at NOLA as an example. Or New York. Or Cleveland, post-LeBron.) They'll have to play this correctly to not be branded as such.

[SteelSD]

Windhorst is a great interview (though I find his voice grating). I do find it odd that he mentions AD as proof that Paul works for his clients but then ignores that Paul steered Davis away from Boston and Danny Ainge (https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2019/10/09/rich-paul-anthony-davis-celtics/). But the money's going to largely be the same in Boston, Milwaukee, or NOLA-- salary caps (and player tiers) see to that.

It's the relationships that are important.

If Morey/ Doc/ Embiid/ Philadelphia (@32:00) get a reputation as being difficult or disrespectful toward star players/ treating stars as scapegoats, it'll affect that franchise for years. (Look at NOLA as an example. Or New York. Or Cleveland, post-LeBron.) They'll have to play this correctly to not be branded as such.

I'm sorry, I don't see anything in that article (or the linked SI article) that demonstrates Rich Paul telling AD to steer away from Boston. What I read demonstrates that he warned Boston that AD was going to test Free Agency and that AD himself didn't want to sign long-term with Boston if he were traded. Seems like AD's father may have influenced him, possibly. Dunno'.

And Philly has spent Ben Simmons' entire career supporting him. Prior to the post-game 7 of the Atlanta series, Rivers and co. had gone to extreme lengths to try to boost up Simmons to anyone who would listen. They're good. This injury was self-inflicted by Simmons himself and I think pretty much everyone knows that.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I'm sorry, I don't see anything in that article (or the linked SI article) that demonstrates Rich Paul telling AD to steer away from Boston. What I read demonstrates that he warned Boston that AD was going to test Free Agency and that AD himself didn't want to sign long-term with Boston if he were traded. Seems like AD's father may have influenced him, possibly. Dunno'.

Ainge wanted AD. He made an offer for AD. Paul said AD wouldn't sign there. Ergo, Paul steered AD away from Boston. (And toward another Klutch client, LeBron in LA.)


And Philly has spent Ben Simmons' entire career supporting him. Prior to the post-game 7 of the Atlanta series, Rivers and co. had gone to extreme lengths to try to boost up Simmons to anyone who would listen. They're good. This injury was self-inflicted by Simmons himself and I think pretty much everyone knows that.

Philly supported Simmons his entire career-- until they didn't. (And deserved or not, Embiid, Doc, and company definitely threw Simmons under the bus after Atlanta.) Ultimately, it's a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, man. And perception is key. What Simmons and Paul will say to other free agents looking at the Sixers could be pretty important moving forward. How Morey treats Simmons (and by extension Paul) as they make this deal might also have an effect, fair or not. Philadelphia will have to be remarkably careful-- and Morey, for all his genius, is not known as a man who's extraordinarily careful.

[SteelSD]

Ainge wanted AD. He made an offer for AD. Paul said AD wouldn't sign there. Ergo, Paul steered AD away from Boston. (And toward another Klutch client, LeBron in LA.)

Nah. Paul stating that AD would become a free agent wasn't steering AD away from Boston. He told Boston that AD would test free agency no matter what, so they had to consider that they would be trading for a guy for only one guaranteed year. If you remember, AD became a free agent with the Lakers as well, fielded offers from multiple teams, and signed his 5-year deal with the Lakers days before preseason started. That was what Anthony Davis wanted; not AD being manipulated by his agent.


Philly supported Simmons his entire career-- until they didn't. (And deserved or not, Embiid, Doc, and company definitely threw Simmons under the bus after Atlanta.) Ultimately, it's a what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, man. And perception is key. What Simmons and Paul will say to other free agents looking at the Sixers could be pretty important moving forward. How Morey treats Simmons (and by extension Paul) as they make this deal might also have an effect, fair or not. Philadelphia will have to be remarkably careful-- and Morey, for all his genius, is not known as a man who's extraordinarily careful.

I'll have to agree to disagree on that point, mainly because I'm simply not interested in arguing the "perception" of something that's completely false. No one mistreated Ben Simmons. And I don't believe for a moment that NBA players would somehow rally behind an easily-disproved war cry of "mistreatment" from Rich Paul that would cause them to mark the Sixers off their list of preferred destinations (like that happens anyway). You're right that relationships can be fragile, but Morey's been around long enough that he's already built his reputation. And, as those relationships are symbiotic, Rich Paul needs to ensure that he's representing his clients interests, not attempting to push his own agenda or play some revenge game.

[Bourgeois Zee]

We disagree on the AD stuff completely. He was a free agent in name only-- Paul absolutely steered AD to LA and LeBron instead of Boston or New York. Lots of hurt feelings at that point. This is another inflection point, and I'm pretty positive Paul will do the same thing he did before. He'll do it again later. So will other agents because (and this is my point) it happens all the time.

Agents tend to focus on teams with which they have positive relationships. Players tend to focus on teams that treat them right. New York had a reputation-- deserved or not-- for treating players like crap for at least a decade. It affected them in free agency for the entirety of that decade. (And might still be affecting them.) Cleveland, the Clippers under Donald Sterling, Phoenix under Colangelo (especially near the end), Cleveland from the beginning of their franchise until Mark Price and Mark Daugherty-- some teams are avoided like the plague even if they have the most cash to offer.

Philadelphia needs to be careful with how they treat Simmons, lest they fall into that reputation.

[SteelSD]

We disagree on the AD stuff completely. He was a free agent in name only-- Paul absolutely steered AD to LA and LeBron instead of Boston or New York. Lots of hurt feelings at that point. This is another inflection point, and I'm pretty positive Paul will do the same thing he did before. He'll do it again later. So will other agents because (and this is my point) it happens all the time.

Agents tend to focus on teams with which they have positive relationships. Players tend to focus on teams that treat them right. New York had a reputation-- deserved or not-- for treating players like crap for at least a decade. It affected them in free agency for the entirety of that decade. (And might still be affecting them.) Cleveland, the Clippers under Donald Sterling, Phoenix under Colangelo (especially near the end), Cleveland from the beginning of their franchise until Mark Price and Mark Daugherty-- some teams are avoided like the plague even if they have the most cash to offer.

Philadelphia needs to be careful with how they treat Simmons, lest they fall into that reputation.

Please. No one is going to blink an eye if an NBA player with a max contract and four years left on it cries "abuse" when a team won't immediately trade him for a bad return just because he demands it. Nor am I worried about the Sixers not being able to sign the kind of free agents they haven't ever signed.

There is simply no reason to rush a Simmons trade or take back poor value to placate anyone, including Rich freakin' Paul.

[Revering4Blue]

We disagree on the AD stuff completely. He was a free agent in name only-- Paul absolutely steered AD to LA and LeBron instead of Boston or New York. Lots of hurt feelings at that point. This is another inflection point, and I'm pretty positive Paul will do the same thing he did before. He'll do it again later. So will other agents because (and this is my point) it happens all the time.

Agents tend to focus on teams with which they have positive relationships. Players tend to focus on teams that treat them right. New York had a reputation-- deserved or not-- for treating players like crap for at least a decade. It affected them in free agency for the entirety of that decade. (And might still be affecting them.)Cleveland, the Clippers under Donald Sterling, Phoenix under Colangelo (especially near the end), Cleveland from the beginning of their franchise until Mark Price and Mark Daugherty-- some teams are avoided like the plague even if they have the most cash to offer.

Philadelphia needs to be careful with how they treat Simmons, lest they fall into that reputation.

And Cleveland, even with prime Price and Daugherty, wasn't exactly a haven for high-profile free agents. Oddly enough, Stepien's Cavs still managed to land semi-high-profile free agents - such as Scott Wedman and James Edwards back in the day. Of course, high-profile free agents rarely switched teams prior to the advent of unrestricted free agency in '88, due to the compensation costs: players, draft picks and cash.

Anyway, I cannot recall Sterling's Clippers, Cleveland (not including LeBron in the Summer of '14) and Colangelo's Suns attracting higher-profile free agents other than Larry Hughes (Cavs), Baron Davis (Sterling's Clips) and Danny Manning (Suns), and all results were underwhelming.

Circling back to the Simmons discussion, who knows how it will play out. But let's remember the pickle the Pacers were in with Paul George Summer of '17, when nearly everyone believed that Indiana had no leverage at all. That ensuing George trade turned out pretty well for Indy, so we shouldn't be too quick to discount Morey from pulling a rabbit out of his hat. But if Sacto's involved, I'm not dealing away Haliburton or Fox, nor am I accepting any deal from Sacto without either of them heading to Philly.

[M2]

I want to double back to the Kings for a moment. No matter how lousy Simmons was in the playoffs, he's still age 25 with 3 All-Star nods, 2 All-Defensive teams and 1 All-NBA 3rd team. Where is Sacramento going to get a guy like that when they're bouncing around in the late lottery? They could get four years of that dude plus Fox in their primes. In the right situation, Simmons is a walking triple-double who can lock down the best scorer on the opposing team. They will not come up with a better plan for how to achieve some relevance.

So they can say they won't part with Halliburton, but he's not in any danger of ranking among the league's best anytime soon. Plus, the Sixers probably kick in Maxey if Halliburton's on the table (because there's not going to be a ton of minutes for him if Halliburton and Hield show up). So the Kings could have Fox, Maxey, Davion Mitchell, Terence Davis (I think they like him a lot) and Jahmi'us Ramsey locking down their guard slots.

The Kings have basketball and marketing reasons to make that deal.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I want to double back to the Kings for a moment. No matter how lousy Simmons was in the playoffs, he's still age 25 with 3 All-Star nods, 2 All-Defensive teams and 1 All-NBA 3rd team. Where is Sacramento going to get a guy like that when they're bouncing around in the late lottery? They could get four years of that dude plus Fox in their primes. In the right situation, Simmons is a walking triple-double who can lock down the best scorer on the opposing team. They will not come up with a better plan for how to achieve some relevance.

So they can say they won't part with Halliburton, but he's not in any danger of ranking among the league's best anytime soon. Plus, the Sixers probably kick in Maxey if Halliburton's on the table (because there's not going to be a ton of minutes for him if Halliburton and Hield show up). So the Kings could have Fox, Maxey, Davion Mitchell, Terence Davis (I think they like him a lot) and Jahmi'us Ramsey locking down their guard slots.

The Kings have basketball and marketing reasons to make that deal.

Am I the only one who'd rather have Haliburton than Simmons?

Haliburton's already a 40% three-point shooter and 85% free throw shooter.

He's going to get stronger and was perhaps the best college defender since Thybulle. Once he gains that weight, I suspect he's going to be a difference-maker on the perimeter. He's already a menace with his hands He doesn't turn the ball over and passes well. He's a decent rebounder (who should get far better). Haliburton's game is all nuance and upside.

Simons, meanwhile, has gone from 4.5 VORP to 3.8 to 2.8 to 2.2. He's trending the wrong way. Real question: What has he done over his four seasons to make himself a better ballplayer?

[M2]

Am I the only one who'd rather have Haliburton than Simmons?

Haliburton's already a 40% three-point shooter and 85% free throw shooter.

He's going to get stronger and was perhaps the best college defender since Thybulle. Once he gains that weight, I suspect he's going to be a difference-maker on the perimeter. He's already a menace with his hands He doesn't turn the ball over and passes well. He's a decent rebounder (who should get far better). Haliburton's game is all nuance and upside.

Simons, meanwhile, has gone from 4.5 VORP to 3.8 to 2.8 to 2.2. He's trending the wrong way. Real question: What has he done over his four seasons to make himself a better ballplayer?

Haliburton strikes me as a bit of an Andre Miller type. Real solid player, but probably needs to be a supporting player if you want to win something with him. I think he's a great fit on a good team and guy in waiting on a bad team. I don't think Sacramento is going anywhere as currently constructed. Add Simmons, who can affect games with his unicorn mix, and maybe you get a team that can be a problem.

And Simmons has done nothing to make himself a better ballplayer. He's immensely frustrating that way. However, I do think on a running team where he doesn't have to feed the ball to a production big, he'd use more of what he has. Increase his usage, which also has been dropping every season, and you probably see his value measurements spring upward with them.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Haliburton strikes me as a bit of an Andre Miller type. Real solid player, but probably needs to be a supporting player if you want to win something with him. I think he's a great fit on a good team and guy in waiting on a bad team. I don't think Sacramento is going anywhere as currently constructed.

Ah, there's our difference of opinion.

Andre Miller wasn't half the shooter Haliburton already is. Though steady, he got by with fundamentals and basketball IQ.

Haliburton's more athletic than Miller ever was. He's got that same tear drop, but his shot (and blow-by ability) are solid. Mark Price or Deron Williams are Haliburton's offensive comps.

[M2]

Ah, there's our difference of opinion.

Andre Miller wasn't half the shooter Haliburton already is. Though steady, he got by with fundamentals and basketball IQ.

Haliburton's more athletic than Miller ever was. He's got that same tear drop, but his shot (and blow-by ability) are solid. Mark Price or Deron Williams are Haliburton's offensive comps.

Stylistically they are different, but in terms of overall quality I'll be surprised if Haliburton turns out to be any more of an ace than Miller did. Jrue Holiday is another guy who kind of fits that mold. Groovy player, but if he's your go-to guy then you're probably not going that far. Yet put him in the right situation and he can help you win a title. Don't get me wrong, I love that type of player. However, I'm not sold the Kings have a path to being the kind of team where Haliburton can deliver his full value.

Seems like right now the Kings and Sixers are in a staring contest. I totally get why Sacto would be making the offer Hield + MB3. No reason to move off of it. Yet as we get closer to the season and the Kings have to confront the very real prospect of another season in the lottery, I expect them to be the team that blinks first. I suspect they want Simmons.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Yet as we get closer to the season and the Kings have to confront the very real prospect of another season in the lottery, I expect them to be the team that blinks first. I suspect they want Simmons.

I think Simmons fit in Sacramento would be good defensively, if only because no one on that team plays defense. I'll absolutely accept your idea that Simmons needs a run-and-gun team as well.

But his fit next to Fox is really poor. Neither shoots the ball all that well. Both would demand the ball in their hand to initiate offense.

Were I Sacramento, I think I'd rather give up Fox in a Simmons deal (with more coming back) than Haliburton.

[M2]

I think Simmons fit in Sacramento would be good defensively, if only because no one on that team plays defense. I'll absolutely accept your idea that Simmons needs a run-and-gun team as well.

But his fit next to Fox is really poor. Neither shoots the ball all that well. Both would demand the ball in their hand to initiate offense.

Were I Sacramento, I think I'd rather give up Fox in a Simmons deal (with more coming back) than Haliburton.

I imagine the Sixers would be cool with Fox instead of Hield/Haliburton.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I imagine the Sixers would be cool with Fox instead of Hield/Haliburton.

But that's my point.

Fox, at this point, is probably an overpay. If the Sixers add Maxey, the trade doesn't work due to salary issues.

[M2]

But that's my point.

Fox, at this point, is probably an overpay. If the Sixers add Maxey, the trade doesn't work due to salary issues.

If I was building a team from scratch, I'd take Simmons over Fox without a second thought. Simmons' length and skillset create all kinds of mismatch opportunities. I've seen him turn a team into a contender. If this was just about basketball, the Sixers would be keeping Simmons until they got an offer they can't refuse. Fox has got a good numbers/bad team resume to date. Yet I think they'd complement each other and be extra deadly in transition. And the Kings are a bad team that needs to take a chance on the potential of a pairing like that.

[SteelSD]

And Simmons has done nothing to make himself a better ballplayer. He's immensely frustrating that way. However, I do think on a running team where he doesn't have to feed the ball to a production big, he'd use more of what he has. Increase his usage, which also has been dropping every season, and you probably see his value measurements spring upward with them.

The difference between Ben Simmons' and Giannis Antetokounmpo's level of aggressiveness offensively is that, when Giannis walks to the free throw line, he says to himself, "Yeah. I'm going to hit some of these." When Simmons trudges to the charity stripe, he's thinking "Man, I'm going to fail in front of all of these people."

Simmons has time to turn that around. He's 25. There are, of course, legit concerns that he's also too young and to rich to gain the humility needed to do that ASAP. Honestly, the only reason I want him dealt is that if he doesn't do it immediately while on a contending team, we've already seen how badly his hitting bottom messes with a playoff run. I want no chance of that happening again while Embiid is in his prime.

And THAT being said, I'm getting tired of folks acting as if Simmons is Michael Carter-Williams with some of these "trades" being floated. He ain't Giannis, but he sure as heck ain't that guy either.

[SteelSD]

Yep. At some point, a team like Sacramento needs to give up something of value from a roster to acquire players who will bring a semblance of legitimacy to their organization. Otherwise, they're likely doomed to low-level lottery question marks, because they're not attracting anything resembling high-level free agents. If their plan is to run Fox out there with a couple decent complimentary players and wait for a superstar to randomly pop up at pick 10-12, I guess that's a plan. It's not good plan, but it's a plan.

[Betterread]

If I was building a team from scratch, I'd take Simmons over Fox without a second thought. Simmons' length and skillset create all kinds of mismatch opportunities. I've seen him turn a team into a contender. If this was just about basketball, the Sixers would be keeping Simmons until they got an offer they can't refuse. Fox has got a good numbers/bad team resume to date. Yet I think they'd complement each other and be extra deadly in transition. And the Kings are a bad team that needs to take a chance on the potential of a pairing like that.
I would rather go with Fox. He is definitely talented, somewhere between John Wall and Jah Morant, and he is young enough that maybe he can sand down some of the rough edges. If he improves his outside shot and running the offense/helping teammates get better, he’s an all-star.
On the other hand, if he doesn’t improve, he is another UK Pg with great athletic abilities who can’t figure out the mental part of the game (Wall, Bledsoe, Brandon Knight).
With Simmons, he is definitely talented, but his weaknesses are calcified and permanent. The market’s reaction to his availability indicates this.
I think he will become Draymond Green with a better handle. Very Valuable, but not a top two or three guy on a good/ great team.

[M2]

I would rather go with Fox. He is definitely talented, somewhere between John Wall and Jah Morant, and he is young enough that maybe he can sand down some of the rough edges. If he improves his outside shot and running the offense/helping teammates get better, he’s an all-star.
On the other hand, if he doesn’t improve, he is another UK Pg with great athletic abilities who can’t figure out the mental part of the game (Wall, Bledsoe, Brandon Knight).
With Simmons, he is definitely talented, but his weaknesses are calcified and permanent. The market’s reaction to his availability indicates this.
I think he will become Draymond Green with a better handle. Very Valuable, but not a top two or three guy on a good/ great team.

Fox will have to improve to become better than pre-injury Wall. And if Simmons is calcified as an All-Star, I think I'd be cool with that.

[SteelSD]

Fox will have to improve to become better than pre-injury Wall. And if Simmons is calcified as an All-Star, I think I'd be cool with that.

Yeah, BZ mentioned that Simmons posted the lowest VORP (B-Ref) of his career last season. Well, that 2.2 VORP is a top-40 NBA player who's worth nearly 6 Wins above replacement. That's basically two seasons of D'Angelo Russell's value.

Defense matters.

[M2]

Yeah, BZ mentioned that Simmons posted the lowest VORP (B-Ref) of his career last season. Well, that 2.2 VORP is a top-40 NBA player who's worth nearly 6 Wins above replacement. That's basically two seasons of D'Angelo Russell's value.

Defense matters.

Cannot be said enough that all Ben Simmons has done since entering the league is run the point for a playoff team. The Sixers switched from awful to contender on a dime in his rookie season. He may not be the guy to put them over the top and it makes sense to put better shooting around Embiid, but we've seen Simmons be a key player in giving a team instant legitimacy. His ability to pass over the top of any defense, the threat he creates on the break and as a rim runner, and him being perhaps the best perimeter defender in the league all makes him a pretty useful guy to have on your team. He'd be a major upgrade for pretty much any lottery team.

[Betterread]

Yeah, BZ mentioned that Simmons posted the lowest VORP (B-Ref) of his career last season. Well, that 2.2 VORP is a top-40 NBA player who's worth nearly 6 Wins above replacement. That's basically two seasons of D'Angelo Russell's value.

Defense matters.
Comparing Simmons and Dlo is not right. Dlo is overpaid, overrated and gets paid because he can get his shot when he wants and he makes those shots at a decent, not great rate. Everything else he does is garbage. Simmons is far more athletic, far more skilled and far more intelligent. He just has no jumper.

[M2]

Supposedly John Wall wants out of Houston and they're trying to trade him - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10012407-nba-trade-rumors-john-wall-rockets-mutually-agree-to-find-star-pg-a-new-home. It raises the question, can you trade a guy to China?

[RichRed]

Supposedly John Wall wants out of Houston and they're trying to trade him - https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10012407-nba-trade-rumors-john-wall-rockets-mutually-agree-to-find-star-pg-a-new-home. It raises the question, can you trade a guy to China?

So then...The Great John Wall of China?

[SteelSD]

Comparing Simmons and Dlo is not right. Dlo is overpaid, overrated and gets paid because he can get his shot when he wants and he makes those shots at a decent, not great rate. Everything else he does is garbage. Simmons is far more athletic, far more skilled and far more intelligent. He just has no jumper.

Just to clarify, I'm only comparing the value as a baseline for the kind of stuff that's been floated about Simmons trades. I completely agree with you.

[M2]

Aaron Gordon signed a 4/92 extension with the Nuggets. Decent price for him, though they have to pay for Michael Porter too when this kicks in starting in 2022-23.

[15fan]

Looks like the price for Simmons is dropping by the minute.

Ball handler who can’t hit a 3 (14.7% for his career) and is barely a better FT shooter than he is from inside the arc (59.7% vs 56.4%).

Runs the floor and plays great perimeter D. Sounds like Stacey Augmon with $171 million left on his contract over the next 5 years.

(Or…the NBA’s version of Jason Heyward.)

[M2]

Looks like the price for Simmons is dropping by the minute.

Ball handler who can’t hit a 3 (14.7% for his career) and is barely a better FT shooter than he is from inside the arc (59.7% vs 56.4%).

Runs the floor and plays great perimeter D. Sounds like Stacey Augmon with $171 million left on his contract over the next 5 years.

(Or…the NBA’s version of Jason Heyward.)

He's still 16-8-8 for his career with relatively low usage. He'd be the best player on a fair number of teams. I completely get hoping his trade value craters and you can snare him for close to nothing, but some team is going to realize he's the best young veteran they're likely to acquire this decade and move accordingly.

[Bourgeois Zee]

He'd be the best player on a fair number of teams.

Hmm. Don't know about that one.

He's no doubt better than the best players on four teams.

After that, it's a debate.

[Boston Red]

It would be amusing if the Sixers just called his bluff.

[M2]

Hmm. Don't know about that one.

He's no doubt better than the best players on four teams.

After that, it's a debate.

I count seven before I get into the debating category.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I count seven before I get into the debating category.

Charlotte, Cleveland, San Antonio, and Orlando, for sure.

Toronto's got Siakam. Indiana has Sabonis. Detroit now has Cunningham.

I think each of those could be debated, but perhaps you're right.

[M2]

Charlotte, Cleveland, San Antonio, and Orlando, for sure.

Toronto's got Siakam. Indiana has Sabonis. Detroit now has Cunningham.

I think each of those could be debated, but perhaps you're right.

I've got Houston (Wood doesn't play defense) and Sacramento (all day every day over Fox) in addition to Detroit (because Cunningham's probably not going to be an All-Star who runs a playoff team). Siakam would be in the debate category, because I've seen him swallowed whole in the playoffs too. As would the Knicks and Julius Randle.

The playoff team I'd like to see him is Dallas. I think Simmons and Luka would complement each other real well. They're so different but so good at sharing the ball that I think it would seriously mess with other teams.

[Assembly Hall]

The playoff team I'd like to see him is Dallas. I think Simmons and Luka would complement each other real well. They're so different but so good at sharing the ball that I think it would seriously mess with other teams.

Personally, I would love to see Ben in a Pacers uniform.

[M2]

Personally, I would love to see Ben in a Pacers uniform.

They could be a sleeper. Brogdon and Warren would work salary-wise.

[Assembly Hall]

They could be a sleeper. Brogdon and Warren would work salary-wise.

Then I say we get it done. I am getting tired of around .500 seasons and 1st round exits.

[Revering4Blue]

They could be a sleeper. Brogdon and Warren would work salary-wise.

There were whispers about such a deal fairly recently but either Philly declined the offer or Pacers ownership balked at taking on Simmons’ contract.

Brogdan can’t stay healthy, Philly could get burned here.

[Revering4Blue]

Then I say we get it done. I am getting tired of around .500 seasons and 1st round exits.

Regarding 1st round exits, it would help if the team had even been remotely close to full strength. That hasn’t been the case since ‘18, and even then, they had to face LeBron in round one.

[Assembly Hall]

Regarding 1st round exits, it would help if the team had even been remotely close to full strength. That hasn’t been the case since ‘18, and even then, they had to face LeBron in round one.

I am aware of that. Even healthy...I don't see the P's making a deep run.

[M2]

I am aware of that. Even healthy...I don't see the P's making a deep run.

Kind of depends on what Warren's like when he comes back. Add a highly efficient scorer on the wing to Sabonis/Brogdon and you've got three guys who can reliably grab you 60+ points a night. What they need is to get to the line more often and hit the offensive glass with more gusto. Oshae Brissett may help in both those departments. Goga also crashes the glass pretty well.

[Assembly Hall]

Kind of depends on what Warren's like when he comes back. Add a highly efficient scorer on the wing to Sabonis/Brogdon and you've got three guys who can reliably grab you 60+ points a night. What they need is to get to the line more often and hit the offensive glass with more gusto. Oshae Brissett may help in both those departments. Goga also crashes the glass pretty well.

And I still want Simmons.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Andrew Wiggins and Kyrie Irving are two NBA stars whose absence could have a massive effect on both the playoffs and the championship picture.

Neither are apparently vaccinated (nor do they wish to be).

The NBA (and cities who house NBA franchises) are being really tough on would-be religious objectors. (Wiggins has already been denied, fwiw, and the city of San Francisco has said he will have to get the vaccine or not be able to play in home games.)

It'll be fascinating to see who chooses not to get vaccinated and how that might impact teams. I can see, for example, Irving-- who has a long history of contemplating and believing in assorted conspiracy theories-- choosing not to play games in NYC and San Francisco (and perhaps LA and Toronto, among others).

I wonder what that might do to his relationships and value in the league, were he to sit out.

[M2]

Andrew Wiggins and Kyrie Irving are two NBA stars whose absence could have a massive effect on both the playoffs and the championship picture.

Neither are apparently vaccinated (nor do they wish to be).

The NBA (and cities who house NBA franchises) are being really tough on would-be religious objectors. (Wiggins has already been denied, fwiw, and the city of San Francisco has said he will have to get the vaccine or not be able to play in home games.)

It'll be fascinating to see who chooses not to get vaccinated and how that might impact teams. I can see, for example, Irving-- who has a long history of contemplating and believing in assorted conspiracy theories-- choosing not to play games in NYC and San Francisco (and perhaps LA and Toronto, among others).

I wonder what that might do to his relationships and value in the league, were he to sit out.

Wiggins literally may not be able to re-enter Canada.

FWIW, if they refuse to get vaxxed those teams should be able to void their contracts and have a trade exception for their salary slots.

[Bourgeois Zee]

FWIW, if they refuse to get vaxxed those teams should be able to void their contracts and have a trade exception for their salary slots.

Rolling Stone says 50 - 60 players are fully unvaccinated.

It'll be interesting to see what happens if the rubber does indeed meet the road. Could make for some new odds for championship chasing.

If Kyrie goes full-on crazy (as he is wont to do), Brooklyn will drop from the top spot for sure.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Kyrie and Devin Booker are out as Covid casualties. Zion's broken his foot. Wiggins is stuck, and Simmons is officially refusing to report to Philly's camp. SGA feels 150% ready for the games to start. (Must be that Canadian math.)

[Bourgeois Zee]

Kyrie and Devin Booker are out as Covid casualties.

Bradley Beal is apparently unvaccinated.

Devin Booker insinuates that he is as well.

Jonathan Isaacs too (though his issues will almost assuredly not result in a playoff problem).

[SteelSD]

Bradley Beal is apparently unvaccinated.

I saw the Beal interview about it. I hold out hopes that at least 10% of anti-vaxxers watching decided to get shots after hearing the heaping pile of dumb coming out of his mouth.

And I actually like..er...liked...er...I dunno...Bradley Beal.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I saw the Beal interview about it. I hold out hopes that at least 10% of anti-vaxxers watching decided to get shots after hearing the heaping pile of dumb coming out of his mouth.

And I actually like..er...liked...er...I dunno...Bradley Beal.

I once felt the same way about Kyrie Irving. Then I heard him speak.

Woof.

[Betterread]

Golden state is not going to have any problem giving wiggins’ non-vaccinated minutes to other, probably better players. They will also save a ton of money. He is one of the most overpaid, overrated NBA players.
The press conference he gave the other day was a truly disgusting attempt to get people to feel sorry for him because he is having a tough time deciding not to do a socially redeemable thing. He has access to the best medical care on earth, and he has no idea how fortunate he is.

[M2]

Golden state is not going to have any problem giving wiggins’ non-vaccinated minutes to other, probably better players. They will also save a ton of money. He is one of the most overpaid, overrated NBA players.
The press conference he gave the other day was a truly disgusting attempt to get people to feel sorry for him because he is having a tough time deciding not to do a socially redeemable thing. He has access to the best medical care on earth, and he has no idea how fortunate he is.

Otto Porter might have landed himself in the perfect situation.

As for some of the unvaxxed guys, I expect the Capital One Arena in DC will join the ranks of venues requiring a vax soon enough, which will put Beal on the functionally unplayable list. And Chris Paul might just kill Devin Booker (also, AZ has been getting hammered by this disease, so read the room).

[Strikes Out Looking]

Beal's a moron. I wonder if he did his "research" at the Library of Congress and the National Archives?

[Bourgeois Zee]

Otto Porter might have landed himself in the perfect situation.

If Porter's got anything left at all, he might end up being the Comeback Player of the Year.

[M2]

Does the Beal lunacy put him on the table in a deal for Ben Simmons?

[Betterread]

Does the Beal lunacy put him on the table in a deal for Ben Simmons?
Ben Simmons has his own issues. I read somewhere that he “follows” Q anon.

[Stray]

Beal and Isaac both had and beat confirmed cases of Covid. They're both young and in better shape than 99.9% of humans on this planet. Not sure why their vaccination status matters, at all. I thought Beal was poking fun at his press more than anything, but found Isaac's response to be thoughtful and honest. I still don't get why so many people care, let alone care enough to be upset by it.

[M2]

Beal and Isaac both had and beat confirmed cases of Covid. They're both young and in better shape than 99.9% of humans on this planet. Not sure why their vaccination status matters, at all. I thought Beal was poking fun at his press more than anything, but found Isaac's response to be thoughtful and honest. I still don't get why so many people care, let alone care enough to be upset by it.

Because they're not going to be able to play games for their teams.

[Stray]

Because they're not going to be able to play games for their teams.

I'll believe that when I see it. Unless Silver wants to neuter his league...it's not going to happen. Ever.

[M2]

I'll believe that when I see it. Unless Silver wants to neuter his league...it's not going to happen. Ever.

You're going to see it because you can't get into a whole bunch of arenas without a vax. It's already happening in preseason hockey games. The deal's done.

And you can expect the number of arenas requiring it to increase because the ones that do are saving mad bucks on their insurance. So, if you want to be a professional basketball player, you need to be able to set foot into the buildings where they play the games. The players need to realize that they're not getting special treatment on this if paying customers are getting turned away at the door. So figure it out if you've got any kind of commitment to your team.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I still don't get why so many people care, let alone care enough to be upset by it.

Not only is it cheaper and fairer, as M2 explains, it shows a basic lack of respect for others. It's far easier for the unvaccinated to pass Covid along, thereby affecting both your own team (torpedoing the aspirations of that team) and the opposing team you play (thereby torpedoing their chances and possible league games/ enjoyment). It's also inherently dangerous to sick or unvaccinated (re: children) family members, those in attendance at the games, and their family members. As M2 said, there are already two cities that have made vaccinations a requirement. More will undoubtedly follow.

But even if it's only those two cities, that means any games played against Golden State, Brooklyn, and the Knicks without your unvaxxed means you play shorthanded but healthy. That's no bueno for your teammates and for the team as a whole. Think Chris Paul is going to be happy if Devin Booker sits out games in those two cities because he's too uninformed to get a safe, healthy, free shot? Think the other members of his team aren't going to hold it against him?

And M2's right on another front as well. San Francisco and New York aren't going to be the only two teams who do this. Toronto or LA will be next, I'd wager. DC will probably follow suit soon thereafter. Portland might. That's a bunch of games missed when even one often means the difference in home team and seeding-- or even making the playoffs.

Were I Durant, Curry, Harden, Green, et al., I'd be in the ear of those guys constantly. We need you on the court, and you can't get on the court unless you have the vaccine.

Were I Chris Paul or part of the Wiz, I'd be in their ears about those away games they'll be missing and how that lets down the entire team.

[Rojo Rijo]

No amount of vilification is going to pry Beal's upper hand with the Wizards. Their loyalty to each other, while confusing, is about as strong of a team-player bond as there is in the NBA right now.

[SteelSD]

FYI- I believe that visiting teams are exempt from the vaccine requirement in both NY and SF.

[M2]

The vax requirement at TD Garden in Boston kicks in tomorrow.

[Bourgeois Zee]

No amount of vilification is going to pry Beal's upper hand with the Wizards. Their loyalty to each other, while confusing, is about as strong of a team-player bond as there is in the NBA right now.

If Beal misses winnable games because he's not vaxxed, some of the other players will almost assuredly be angry that he chose not to sacrifice... whatever point it is that he thinks he's making (as that wasn't clear from the clusterpoop interview he did on Media Day) for his team and teammates.

Read the ESPN article about this very topic. 90% of players have gotten the vaccine. They'll expect him to play, even if it does come down to play-or-vaccine.

- - - Updated - - -


The vax requirement at TD Garden in Boston kicks in tomorrow.

Does that allow opposing teams the anti-vaxx loophole, M2?

[Bourgeois Zee]

NBA announces that any games missed due to Covid without a vaccine will be games in which players aren't paid.

I'm wondering if that's already been cleared by the NBPA?

[M2]

Does that allow opposing teams the anti-vaxx loophole, M2?

I'd have to dig around to find out. Though I expect venues are going to go that direction soon enough. I suspect they're just giving the leagues time to get it sorted.


NBA announces that any games missed due to Covid without a vaccine will be games in which players aren't paid.

I'm wondering if that's already been cleared by the NBPA?

Seems like something that would require an NBPA sign on. If so, that's adds to the drama, particularly around Kyrie's position and the harmony between CP3 & Booker.

[Stray]

You're going to see it because you can't get into a whole bunch of arenas without a vax. It's already happening in preseason hockey games. The deal's done.

And you can expect the number of arenas requiring it to increase because the ones that do are saving mad bucks on their insurance. So, if you want to be a professional basketball player, you need to be able to set foot into the buildings where they play the games. The players need to realize that they're not getting special treatment on this if paying customers are getting turned away at the door. So figure it out if you've got any kind of commitment to your team.

I guess it's the idea of a young 20 something dude in the best shape imaginable, with literal naturally produced antibodies from beating a prior infection being denied entry to an arena because science?!!?! that I find absurd and not really scientific at all. Shoot up the physical specimens who are at no risk to protect morbidly obese John in row 3 pounding nachos and beers? But I'm always gonna fight and die on the hill that opposes more govt in our lives. And I'm happy to fight it.

When said outloud it's really not surprising that NBA players are saying no thanks. It's really the unhealthy asking them for a solid, yanno?

[M2]

I guess it's the idea of a young 20 something dude in the best shape imaginable, with literal naturally produced antibodies from beating a prior infection being denied entry to an arena because science?!!?! that I find absurd and not really scientific at all. Shoot up the physical specimens who are at no risk to protect morbidly obese John in row 3 pounding nachos and beers? But I'm always gonna fight and die on the hill that opposes more govt in our lives. And I'm happy to fight it.

When said outloud it's really not surprising that NBA players are saying no thanks. It's really the unhealthy asking them for a solid, yanno?

Your opinion, and mine, doesn't matter. The reality is some NBA arenas have vax requirements and you've got your head in the sand if you don't think more are going to join them. The question facing these guys is do they want to play professional basketball? Because it's going to become an unworkable situation if they don't get the jab. It's a vax. More than 200 million people in this country have gotten one. Certainly these "specimens" can handle that. And it's a small and dwindling number of players who are holdouts at this juncture. Given the enormous sums of money they stand to lose, I expect most will get it over with and get on with their careers.

And it's not going to be the government in many cases. The government isn't making the TD Garden require vaxes. It's doing it because the actuaries have crunched the numbers and Delaware North, which owns the venue, saves a gigantic pile of money with a vax requirement. This is good old capitalism.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Shoot up the physical specimens who are at no risk to protect morbidly obese John in row 3 pounding nachos and beers?

Now tell me how the 8-year-old sitting next to morbidly obese John. Y'know, the one who can't get a vaccine yet.

Selectively naming a rando guy ignores literally every other person in society.

Sure, it suits your "muh freedomz!" argument, but ultimately, we're all a part of society, not apart from it. We have a responsibility to other members of our society.

[Bourgeois Zee]

A Blazer podcast (Blazer Focused (https://open.spotify.com/episode/1IpPGBMoybHXL5Wjt7iSmB)) has a bit of inside scoop. Apparently, the Blazers are valuing CJ McCollum more highly than Ben Simmons. He's supposedly a "better, more polished adult player" than Simmons, who remains a mystery.

I still think Simmons makes the most sense for Minnesota, but I can't come up with a deal without involving a third team. (And even then, it's a circus.)

[Betterread]

Philly( Morey) has withheld 8.25 million owed to Simmons and will deduct fines for missing team activities out of this “escrow” amount.
This punitive approach never works in a specific or team concept. (See Houston and James Harden last year) The organization abandoned Simmons and now they don’t understand why he wants out. With this inept leadership and preference of drama to pragmatism, there is no chance this team gets equal talent back from a Simmons trade and no chance they even reach the “lofty” heights of 2021.
Clearly, Morey would rather languish in the excuse that Simmons ruined a “great” team than take the best offer and move on.

[SteelSD]

Philly( Morey) has withheld 8.25 million owed to Simmons and will deduct fines for missing team activities out of this “escrow” amount.
This punitive approach never works in a specific or team concept. (See Houston and James Harden last year) The organization abandoned Simmons and now they don’t understand why he wants out. With this inept leadership and preference of drama to pragmatism, there is no chance this team gets equal talent back from a Simmons trade and no chance they even reach the “lofty” heights of 2021.
Clearly, Morey would rather languish in the excuse that Simmons ruined a “great” team than take the best offer and move on.

LOL. What? "Abandoned Simmons"???

Oh, holy hell. The Sixers gave him a 5-year 178-million dollar Max Contract, made personnel moves to accommodate him, and had the audacity to expect him to be a go-to guy- which is exactly what he wanted. Simmons responded by orchestrating one of the most public individual playoff implosions of all time. And still, the Sixers wanted him back. Simmons accepted zero responsibility for it and floated trade demands. And still, the Sixers honored his contract, paying him 25% of his 21-22 salary this summer in advance, and would have welcomed him back. Simmons camp responded by demanding that he never play another game for Philly and issued a threat to hold out. And yet, the Sixers would have taken him back. Simmons' teammates wanted to visit him to try to convince him to come on in and he threw them a middle finger. But still, they wanted him back. Simmons is now choosing to not honor his contract, after already being paid for a quarter of the season, by not showing up at training camp. And STILL, the Sixers would have him back if he showed up.

One of the parties involved in this has "abandoned" the other, but it's not the Sixers at fault here. Simmons is not the good guy. Philly doesn't have to trade him, won't do it for garbage, will likely get cap relief should he fail to render services, and could petition the league for a trade exception. Simmons has almost no leverage right now. He needs ​to be careful if his plan is to continue to create drama with the intent of grinding his trade value to dust. At some point, it may become an over-under situation where the Sixers can just choose not to pay him for the next four years rather than trading him for equally paid junk.

[Bourgeois Zee]

One of the parties involved in this has "abandoned" the other, but it's not the Sixers at fault here. Simmons is not the good guy. Philly doesn't have to trade him, won't do it for garbage, will likely get cap relief should he fail to render services, and could petition the league for a trade exception. Simmons has almost no leverage right now. He needs ​to be careful if his plan is to continue to create drama with the intent of grinding his trade value to dust. At some point, it may become an over-under situation where the Sixers can just choose not to pay him for the next four years rather than trading him for equally paid junk.

1. Doc threw him under the bus. So did Embiid. Deservedly or not, Simmons has some reason to feel betrayed.

2. Agreed that Simmons is not the good guy here. That said, no one in Philadelphia has exactly covered himself in laurels.

3. Philly doesn't have to trade him, true, but the only way for them to get cap relief is to suspend Simmons for a substantial amount of time. That would, in turn, drive a further wedge between he and the team. Which would tank his value in a deal. This is why...

4. Simmons has the leverage of a media circus, a distraction, and his own tanking value to play. And it's apparent he will use that leverage.

[Bourgeois Zee]

On another note, Draymond Green has been really honest in his assessment of the Warriors and of his time spent there.

He seems unhappy with the choice to keep the three young guys-- Wiseman, Kuminga, and Moody.


“Historically, we have not seen that work, where you have a mix of old … well, I wouldn’t say any of us are old. Andre (Iguodala) is old as ****, actually,” Green said. “But a mixture of experience and hardly any experience, historically, in just being a fan of the NBA, I can’t recall the last time I’ve seen someone have success with that.”

Green went on to dump on his coach and GM. Repeatedly.

[Bourgeois Zee]

It looks like Sacramento's plan, at least in part, is to go to a three-guard lineup with Hield, Fox, and Haliburton in the backcourt and Harrison Barnes at PF.

Love that type of outside-the-box thinking, but wonder how it'll work defensively. And who'll be the fifth guy in that lineup.

[SteelSD]

1. Doc threw him under the bus. So did Embiid. Deservedly or not, Simmons has some reason to feel betrayed.

2. Agreed that Simmons is not the good guy here. That said, no one in Philadelphia has exactly covered himself in laurels.

3. Philly doesn't have to trade him, true, but the only way for them to get cap relief is to suspend Simmons for a substantial amount of time. That would, in turn, drive a further wedge between he and the team. Which would tank his value in a deal. This is why...

4. Simmons has the leverage of a media circus, a distraction, and his own tanking value to play. And it's apparent he will use that leverage.

1. Neither Rivers nor Embiid threw Simmons under a bus last year. There was no "betrayal". That did not happen. I don't know if that's a media-driven perception due to over-analysis of fairly mild comments. Given the on-court dump Simmons took, one would think that Rivers and Embiid completely and constantly blasted Simmons after that game 7. But that didn't happen. Rivers had constantly defended Simmons to that point throughout the playoffs. Everyone had, regardless of what Simmons did. The Sixers have gone way above and beyond trying to support the guy. At this point, if his ego can't balance the massive support he's received against minor criticism, it's 100% on him.

I know that you're just attempting to process why Simmons feels a certain way about things, but the real reason is that he currently lacks the maturity and humility to feel any other way about it. But that's a him issue.

2. Not sure what that second sentence means. You think Daryl Morey isn't respected in NBA circles? Embiid? What are you getting at?

3+4. It doesn't matter if suspending Simmons drives a "wedge" between him and the team. Simmons not showing up has already done that. It doesn't matter if he tanks his own value, because Morey isn't going to trade him for junk. What Simmons doesn't seem to realize, among a ton of other things, is that his contract limits his potential trade destinations. If none of those destinations actually wants him and/or nobody is willing to put together a reasonable trade package to get him, he's going nowhere. He'll sit through his prime years not getting paid and with no endorsements. He's playing a game of chicken he can't win by simply refusing to not show up.

Now, that being said, I suppose there's the option of Simmons returning but claiming "injury" to try to collect his paycheck. That would be a heck of a lot of fun if he's forced to sit on the bench during games in Philly. Could you imagine what that would feel like for him? Of course, at that point, it's likely Adam Silver and possibly the NBAPA would step in to enforce the NBA and CBA rules (which the Sixers are following to the letter, BTW). That's a lot of potential bad for Simmons and potentially Rich Paul- not Philly- if that were to happen.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Simmons has much more leverage than you want to admit. And I get why you'd be loathe to admit that. As a fan of the Sixers, it absolutely sucks that one of their best players would rather sit out than play and perhaps win a championship.

Simmons has more than $100M in the bank. He can afford to wait this out. Too, if he wants to play, he could always move back to his native Australia and play professionally there. (For a massive payout.) He might also go to Europe or another country. He has options if Morey and company want to hamstring him here in America.

You ignore that the Sixers are indeed competing for a championship in your analysis. Or at least could be-- if Morey can find a player or players commensurate to Simmons to play in his place. That's another part of Simmons' leverage. Every game that he sits out hurts Philly's chances at winning that ring. Now, it's probably not going to kill their chances unless he sits the entire season. But every game might mean a seed-- and those are vital to putting your team in a better spot for that title. The more he sits, the more pressure is put on Morey to make a deal.

And that's what this comes down to-- is there more pressure on Morey to help his team win, or is there more pressure on Simmons to buckle and play?

IMO, Simmons has enough cash saved up (and enough other options) that he won't feel that pressure as keenly as the Philadelphia braintrust.

It helps that Simmons can hide away from media types or massage his message with friendly media types, while Morey, Embiid, and Doc are going to be asked ad nauseum until there's some sort of conclusion to this.

[SteelSD]

Simmons has much more leverage than you want to admit. And I get why you'd be loathe to admit that. As a fan of the Sixers, it absolutely sucks that one of their best players would rather sit out than play and perhaps win a championship.

Before I comment on the rest of your post, please understand that I don't want Simmons on the team anymore. After the playoffs last season, I no longer consider him enough of a positive to offset the risk of another destructive postseason meltdown, especially considering his behavior afterwards. The guy was nearly unplayable in the second half of most of the games. Do not want. And there's no anger, hurt feelings, or fan-driven bias behind that. I simply do not feel that the current version of Ben Simmons is what the Sixers (specifically the Sixers) need to reach that next level.

And I need to note that while we may disagree on some of the nuances, I appreciate your well-reasoned opinions.


Simmons has more than $100M in the bank. He can afford to wait this out. Too, if he wants to play, he could always move back to his native Australia and play professionally there. (For a massive payout.) He might also go to Europe or another country. He has options if Morey and company want to hamstring him here in America.

He could do all of that, which would void his contract- allowing the Sixers the kind of payroll flexibility needed to acquire the kind of talent that might actually help them win a championship. Now, if that happens, it also may end up torching Rich Paul's credibility if he's in charge of helping flush a HUGE NBA contract down the toilet while ensuring that a high-profile client never gets another one. And Adam Silver will be watching, so who knows what that type of move could lead to for Simmons and Klutch.

And please, it's not Daryl Morey who's the issue here. It's Simmons. Morey and the Sixers have held to every one of their contractual obligations and bent over backwards to accommodate Simmons. It's not their duty to trade him, regardless of what Simmons wants. The only person who created and is currently perpetuating the issue is Simmons.


You ignore that the Sixers are indeed competing for a championship in your analysis. Or at least could be-- if Morey can find a player or players commensurate to Simmons to play in his place. That's another part of Simmons' leverage. Every game that he sits out hurts Philly's chances at winning that ring. Now, it's probably not going to kill their chances unless he sits the entire season. But every game might mean a seed-- and those are vital to putting your team in a better spot for that title. The more he sits, the more pressure is put on Morey to make a deal. And that's what this comes down to-- is there more pressure on Morey to help his team win, or is there more pressure on Simmons to buckle and play?

Actually, no, I don't ignore the potential for a deeper playoff run. It's just that I'm not worried about it on October 2nd, 2021. The Sixers shouldn't be worried about that right now either. They'll still be a solid playoff team without Simmons (might actually be better) and they may want to see how the team responds before being worried about it at all. Given Simmons' contract, there's just no urgency to do anything; too many potential outcomes right now. I just don't see many of those outcomes to be in Simmons' favor unless he mans up, gets to camp, and plays his nuts off to enhance his value. He's trending toward that over-under status I mentioned in my last post. There's nothing good about that for him.


IMO, Simmons has enough cash saved up (and enough other options) that he won't feel that pressure as keenly as the Philadelphia braintrust.

It helps that Simmons can hide away from media types or massage his message with friendly media types, while Morey, Embiid, and Doc are going to be asked ad nauseum until there's some sort of conclusion to this.

I don't know how much cash Simmons actually has and honestly don't care. Maybe losing out on a guaranteed 140 million dollars is how he wants to roll. Okay. Go for it. But attention shifts when the new becomes the old as far as drama. And frankly, there may not be a better team in the NBA when facing drama. Their best player feeds off of it and they may use it as a little bit of additional motivation. There's that too.

[Bourgeois Zee]

From the Philly Inquirer:


A league source said the Minnesota Timberwolves, Indiana Pacers, Cleveland Cavaliers, Detroit Pistons, Toronto Raptors and San Antonio Spurs are still inquiring about Simmons’ availability.

So let's see if we can make a deal. Which one's best for Philadelphia?

Minnesota trades Beasley, Okogie, and Beverley plus a lightly protected number one pick.

Indiana deals Brogdon and TJ Warren for Simmons and Maxey.

Cleveland trades Collin Sextion and Kevin Love for Simmons, Thybulle, and Paul Reed.

Detroit deals Jerami Grant, Killian Hayes, and Josh Jackson for Simmons.

Toronto trades Siakam straight up.

San Antonio deals Dejounte Murray, Thad Young, Lonnie Walker, and Josh Primo for Simmons and Maxey.

The Trade Machine says Cleveland. I like the Indiana deal or the Toronto one.

[M2]

It looks like Sacramento's plan, at least in part, is to go to a three-guard lineup with Hield, Fox, and Haliburton in the backcourt and Harrison Barnes at PF.

Love that type of outside-the-box thinking, but wonder how it'll work defensively. And who'll be the fifth guy in that lineup.

I kind of view Hield as a stretch 4. He's jacked and he rebounds fairly well. And it's not like there's a plethora of post-ups 4s anymore. I assume Richaun Holmes is the obligatory big in that mix. I suspect they'll be fun, but not particularly good.

[M2]

From the Philly Inquirer:



So let's see if we can make a deal. Which one's best for Philadelphia?

Minnesota trades Beasley, Okogie, and Beverley plus a lightly protected number one pick.

Indiana deals Brogdon and TJ Warren for Simmons and Maxey.

Cleveland trades Collin Sextion and Kevin Love for Simmons, Thybulle, and Paul Reed.

Detroit deals Jerami Grant, Killian Hayes, and Josh Jackson for Simmons.

Toronto trades Siakam straight up.

San Antonio deals Dejounte Murray, Thad Young, Lonnie Walker, and Josh Primo for Simmons and Maxey.

The Trade Machine says Cleveland. I like the Indiana deal or the Toronto one.

That Indiana trade would be the one I'd want.

[SteelSD]

From the Philly Inquirer:

So let's see if we can make a deal. Which one's best for Philadelphia?

Minnesota trades Beasley, Okogie, and Beverley plus a lightly protected number one pick.

Indiana deals Brogdon and TJ Warren for Simmons and Maxey.

Cleveland trades Collin Sextion and Kevin Love for Simmons, Thybulle, and Paul Reed.

Detroit deals Jerami Grant, Killian Hayes, and Josh Jackson for Simmons.

Toronto trades Siakam straight up.

San Antonio deals Dejounte Murray, Thad Young, Lonnie Walker, and Josh Primo for Simmons and Maxey.

The Trade Machine says Cleveland. I like the Indiana deal or the Toronto one.

I won't deal Maxey or Thybulle in a Simmons trade unless it's for Lillard.

From a talent-back perspective, Indiana looks ok, but it's contract hell. But it would assume that both Brogdon and Warren are healthy and can stay that way PLUS it's contract hell if they planned to re-sign Warren after the season. Siakam doesn't floor space and occupies the same scoring area as Embiid, so there's little chance I do that one. The Detroit and San Antonio deals are lemons. The Cleveland deal is a howling rabid dog of a trade that would severely hamstring the team from a payroll perspective. The Minnesota deal doesn't make me hurl, but it's nauseating.

I'd pass on all of them unless they were part of a three/four team trade with some of the pieces moving elsewhere for a better player back to Philly.

[UKFlounder]

Andrew Wiggins got the vaccination and will be playing, per a Twitter report that said Steve Kerr confirmed the news

[M2]

Andrew Wiggins got the vaccination and will be playing, per a Twitter report that said Steve Kerr confirmed the news

Money talks, and BS walks. - Bobbi Flekman

[M2]

From a talent-back perspective, Indiana looks ok, but it's contract hell. But it would assume that both Brogdon and Warren are healthy and can stay that way PLUS it's contract hell if they planned to re-sign Warren after the season.

The contract part of it looks pretty good. Brogdon makes $21.7M this season and $22.6M next. Warren makes $12.7M this season. It's only a small bump over Simmons' cost for this season (ESPN Trade Machine approves it with no extras needed). I'm guessing Warren will cost somewhere in the $18-22M range for an extension, which they can cover by just not picking up Danny Green's option next year. It would put a ton of shooting around Embiid. Obviously they'd need to get a look at Warren to see if he's recovered.

[SteelSD]

The contract part of it looks pretty good. Brogdon makes $21.7M this season and $22.6M next. Warren makes $12.7M this season. It's only a small bump over Simmons' cost for this season (ESPN Trade Machine approves it with no extras needed). I'm guessing Warren will cost somewhere in the $18-22M range for an extension, which they can cover by just not picking up Danny Green's option next year. It would put a ton of shooting around Embiid. Obviously they'd need to get a look at Warren to see if he's recovered.

Green is signed for $10M next season and the Sixers project @150M of cap allocation (with Simmons). Swapping out those salaries and re-signing Warren- using 20M at a midpoint- would put them around 148M if Green is waived, true. But at that point, you'd have to jettison additional talent if Warren re-signs. And as you mentioned, you're relying on health (for both incoming players) and that Warren chooses to re-sign. Maybe it's me being risk averse, but I hate that many "ifs".

[Bourgeois Zee]

Money talks, and BS walks. - Bobbi Flekman

It's good news, regardless.

[Bourgeois Zee]

The contract part of it looks pretty good.

The fits look outstanding as well.

Brogdon as a tertiary scorer and long distance sniper is a phenomenal fit. In Milwaukee, in much the same role as the one he'd be expected to perform in Philadelphia, he shot 40% from deep. Warren has also turned himself into a 40% three-point shooter. On a team filled with playmakers, these two would seem to be a recipe for dominance. It would certainly solve the Sixers' issues with ball stoppage and shooters around Embiid while helping them with depth and ball handling. They'd go from a questionable shooting team to one of the best in the game. That, in turn, would open up the middle for Embiid to not only score, but to rebound. Embiid could well pull a Wilt-- 30+/15+/4+ with these guys around him.

Defensively, they'd struggle a bit, but Green's still solid, and Embiid is an enforcer down low. Doc can always turn to Thybulle too.

Love that fit for Philadelphia.

For Indiana, I'm not sure it'll work beyond Simmons being a monster defensively. He'd fix lots of issues there, but could he, LeVert, and Sabonis might struggle together-- there's still only one ball, and the Pacers would still have at least three guys (four if Lamb is healthy) who do their best work as ball-dominant guys.

It would hurt them defensively, but Brogdon isn't a complete waste

[Bourgeois Zee]

A team I think most of us might be underselling at this point is Miami.

They don't have the best Big Three, but their depth might be better than anyone's.

They're probably short shooting, but defensively, they're probably going to be the best team this side of Milwaukee (and maybe better). They've also got two of everything, one of the best coaches in the league, and one of the best front offices in case things break down.

Too, Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson strike me as hugely important role players who could well end up scoring 18 a night. And Oladipo could be ready by the playoffs.

What's fascinating is that while most teams have chosen to go Big Three or All-Defense or Deep Shooting, they've gone Big Culture.

[M2]

Green is signed for $10M next season and the Sixers project @150M of cap allocation (with Simmons). Swapping out those salaries and re-signing Warren- using 20M at a midpoint- would put them around 148M if Green is waived, true. But at that point, you'd have to jettison additional talent if Warren re-signs. And as you mentioned, you're relying on health (for both incoming players) and that Warren chooses to re-sign. Maybe it's me being risk averse, but I hate that many "ifs".

Green's not fully guaranteed for 2022-23. Can't find the exact amount they would have to pay, but it's usually a modest percentage of the total cost. And I don't think they have to jettison anyone if they extend a guy they've got in-house.

The injuries are the iffy part. Obviously they'd need to put some eyeballs on Warren. But if they get healthy versions of Brogdon and Warren added to Embiid, Harris and Curry, that's a really good team. My question is whether Indiana really wants to make that deal, but if they're asking on Simmons that's the fairly obvious fit to make it happen.

[SteelSD]

Green's not fully guaranteed for 2022-23. Can't find the exact amount they would have to pay, but it's usually a modest percentage of the total cost. And I don't think they have to jettison anyone if they extend a guy they've got in-house.

The injuries are the iffy part. Obviously they'd need to put some eyeballs on Warren. But if they get healthy versions of Brogdon and Warren added to Embiid, Harris and Curry, that's a really good team. My question is whether Indiana really wants to make that deal, but if they're asking on Simmons that's the fairly obvious fit to make it happen.

Green would go to the bench this year in that situation. They don't have to pay anything if they choose to let Green go in 2022 by late July, IIRC. They'd also likely be in the position of not being able to sign anyone from outside the organization unless it's a vet minimum or if they have a trade exception available (not sure what the status is on that for next year, may be nothing available). And if Warren is healthy, but doesn't re-sign, the trade becomes a huge ball of suck.

[Bourgeois Zee]

And if Warren is healthy, but doesn't re-sign, the trade becomes a huge ball of suck.

A healthy and productive Malcolm Brogdon is far better than an unhappy (and non-playing) Ben Simmons, even without TJ Warren.

You could argue Brogdon is a far better fit for the Philadelphia squad than Simmons straight up.

[M2]

Green would go to the bench this year in that situation. They don't have to pay anything if they choose to let Green go in 2022 by late July, IIRC. They'd also likely be in the position of not being able to sign anyone from outside the organization unless it's a vet minimum or if they have a trade exception available (not sure what the status is on that for next year, may be nothing available). And if Warren is healthy, but doesn't re-sign, the trade becomes a huge ball of suck.

Then the Green part is good, more than covers the Warren extension price. They already planned to to be north of $140M with Simmons, so at least. Any trade they'd want (and can do) pretty much involves matching salaries. They'd have sign-and-trade options with Warren too (and Brogdon in 2023). FWIW, I think Warren makes less on an extension than Aaron Gordon just got.

[SteelSD]

Then the Green part is good, more than covers the Warren extension price. They already planned to to be north of $140M with Simmons, so at least. Any trade they'd want (and can do) pretty much involves matching salaries. They'd have sign-and-trade options with Warren too (and Brogdon in 2023). FWIW, I think Warren makes less on an extension than Aaron Gordon just got.

They did plan to be north of that 140M mark, sure. But they planned to be north of that with cost certainty over four years for one of their big 3 (Simmons) contracts. Acquiring a guy with one year and another with two years left on their contracts muddies that up quite a bit. I'm not saying that they couldn't potentially work that out over time, but the additional amount of moving pieces involved could get problematic.

[Revering4Blue]

I won't deal Maxey or Thybulle in a Simmons trade unless it's for Lillard.

From a talent-back perspective, Indiana looks ok, but it's contract hell. But it would assume that both Brogdon and Warren are healthy and can stay that way PLUS it's contract hell if they planned to re-sign Warren after the season.

And I imagine Morey feels exactly the same way.

Indiana, IMHO, can afford to accept the gamble of relatively injury-free seasons for Brogdan (would be a first for him) and Warren. Philly, IMHO, cannot for reasons that you provided in corresponding posts.

That said, the possibility of Indy building a roster around Sabonis and Simmons really intrigues me and may result in a higher ceiling for Carlisle and company. And, if Isaiah Jackson develops as expected - eventually teaming with Simmons to provide the Pacers with two lengthy players capable of guarding any position on the floor - it produces a palatable situation in which Myles Turner can be dealt for wing help.

[Bourgeois Zee]

In honor of the 75th season of NBA history, let's play a game.

You've got five slots to fill, one for each starting berth. You can't pick the same player as anyone else. You can't pick more than one of each point value-- 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. You have to pick one player from each generation.

Your object: To beat the other teams and win the mythical all-time NBA Championship.

Now: LeBron James (5), Giannis Antetokounmpo (5), Kevin Durant (4), Steph Curry (4), Chris Paul (3), Kawhi Leonard (3), James Harden (2), Anthony Davis (2), Russell Westbrook (1), Carmelo Anthony (1).

The Recently Retired: Kobe Bryant (5), Shaquille O'Neal (5), Tim Duncan (4), Kevin Garnett (4), Hakeem Olajuwon (3), Steve Nash (3), Dirk Nowitzki (2), Dwyane Wade (2), David Robinson (1), Allen Iverson (1).

The Basketbrawl Generation: Michael Jordan (5), Karl Malone (5), Scottie Pippen (4), Charles Barkley (4), Patrick Ewing (3) John Stockton (3), Jason Kidd (2), Clyde Drexler (2), Reggie Miller (1), Gary Payton (1).

The Showtime Era: Magic Johnson (5), Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (5), Larry Bird (4), Julius Erving (4), George Gervin (3), Moses Malone (3), Isiah Thomas (2), Dominique Wilkins (2), Bob McAdoo (1), James Worthy (1).

The Black and White Era: Wilt Chamblerlain (5), Bill Russell (5), Jerry West (4), Oscar Robertson (4), John Havlicek (3), Elgin Baylor (3), Bob Pettit (2), George Mikan (2), Wes Unseld (1), Walt Frazier (1).

Who you got?
PG Walt Frazier (1)
SG Reggie Miller (1)
SF LeBron James (5)
PF Larry Bird (4)
C Hakeem Olajuwon (3)

Comment: Olajuwon in the post, James as the de facto point forward, Bird and Miller shooting, and Frazier as my lead defensive guard is a recipe for a lot of wins. This might be the smartest and most competitive team in history. Teams with speed (particularly at the wings or at point) might hurt a bit, but the length here is undeniable. As an added bonus, everyone on this team rebounds the ball. And passes. Bird and Olajuwon with full-court passes to LeBron (or the other way around) will happen at least once a game.

[SteelSD]

SF- Kevin Durant (4)
PF- Dominique Wilkins (2)
C- David Robinson (1)
PG- Michael Jordan (5)
SG- Elgin Baylor (3)

Cuz...yeah!

[M2]

I'll go with KD, Steph, Doc, AD and Reggie. I don't think that group can be stopped.

[SteelSD]

This is a terrible game. I am the only one following the rules.

<grumble...>

[Mutaman]

Clyde Frazier is only a one? The same as Gary Peyton?

Ewing C 3
Giannis F 5
Worthy F 1
Wade G 2
Oscar G 4

Bernard King Free agent coming off the bench to knock down a quick 20.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I'll go with KD, Steph, Doc, AD and Reggie. I don't think that group can be stopped.

That would be a hard team to beat... if it followed the rules.

One per generation, one per point.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Bernard King Free agent coming off the bench to knock down a quick 20.

Ran out of elite slots.

But how well would King fit with that lineup?

[SteelSD]

That would be a hard team to beat... if it followed the rules.

One per generation, one per point.

You have two ones. Cheater!

[Rojo Rijo]

PG - CP3 (3)
SG - Reggie (1)
SF - Larry (4)
PF - Petit (2)
C - Shaq (5)

[Revering4Blue]

Call it "cheating" if you will, but here's a lineup, separated by eras, comprised of players not listed:

PG: Dame (Now)
SG: Ray Allen (The Recently Retired)
SF: Alex English (The Showtime Era)
PF: Chris Webber (The Basketbrawl Generation)
C: Walt Bellamy (The Black and White Era)

Sixth man (who probably should be starting): Tracy McGrady

[Bourgeois Zee]

Call it "cheating" if you will, but here's a lineup, separated by eras, comprised of players not listed:

PG: Dame (Now)
SG: Ray Allen (The Recently Retired)
SF: Alex English (The Showtime Era)
PF: Chris Webber (The Basketbrawl Generation)
C: Walt Bellamy (The Black and White Era)

Sixth man (who probably should be starting): Tracy McGrady

Nice!

[Revering4Blue]

Nice!

Believe me, BZ, I tried to assemble a team by following your guidelines, but fell short as certain players who fell under designated number/era were previously chosen. FWIW, I was particularly intrigued with the idea of pairing prime Dirk and prime McAdoo together. It's fun to imagine the matchup issues such a pairing -- as well as the assembled teams that have been created here -- would have created.

Great idea.

[Mutaman]

Ran out of elite slots.

But how well would King fit with that lineup?

Robertson would make sure he fit in. Also I claim Earl The Pearl for my bench.

[Bourgeois Zee]

Robertson would make sure he fit in. Also I claim Earl The Pearl for my bench.

I've got Rodman-- both for the rebounding/ defense and the histrionics.

(I wanna see what he'll do with Reggie and Bird.)

[goreds2]

Pre-season: 76ers vs Raptors tonight on NBA TV - 7pm eat.

[Puffy]

I'll follow the 5-4-3-2-1 and the generation rules but picking 6th I ain't following "can't pick who has been picked" cause I'm left with table scraps comparatively.

So:

(G) Jordan (5)
(G) DWade (2)
(F) Durant (4)
(F) Elgin Baylor (3)
(F) McAdoo (1)

Go ahead - - try and out score or out athlete us

[M2]

That would be a hard team to beat... if it followed the rules.

One per generation, one per point.
If you're not cheating, you're not trying.

[Mutaman]

I'll follow the 5-4-3-2-1 and the generation rules but picking 6th I ain't following "can't pick who has been picked" cause I'm left with table scraps comparatively.

So:

(G) Jordan (5)
(G) DWade (2)
(F) Durant (4)
(F) Elgin Baylor (3)
(F) McAdoo (1)

Go ahead - - try and out score or out athlete us

Giannis would score 50 a game against that team. Ewing would just beat you up. No muscle.

[M2]

All right, if I must play by the rules I'll go with Wilt, Doc, Kawhi, Dirk and the Glove. I feel like Wilt's getting overlooked, and I am incapable of picking a team without Doc. Basically every guy there is a nightmare in his own way. Payton also strikes me as really good value.

[15fan]

I’ll go Kawhi (3), Duncan (4), Miller (1), Thomas (2) and Russell (5).

Not a lot of yapping from the front court. Backcourt, tho…

Better bring a team of 5 wings cuz you are getting less than 0 in the paint. And the closest you’ll get to a rebound is reading about it the next day.

Probably gonna have to play our home games at Fort Knox to keep all the diamond and gold hardware secure, too.

[Revering4Blue]

All right, if I must play by the rules I'll go with Wilt, Doc, Kawhi, Dirk and the Glove. I feel like Wilt's getting overlooked, and I am incapable of picking a team without Doc. Basically every guy there is a nightmare in his own way. Payton also strikes me as really good value.I love it!

All are transcendent talents capable of adjusting to ANY era of NBA basketball. And as you, Steel and others assuredly recall, Doc spent a considerable amount of time playing 2G once Andrew Toney was essentially shelved for the remainder of his career.

Nice out-of-box thinking.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

[SteelSD]

I love it!

All are transcendent talents capable of adjusting to ANY era of NBA basketball. And as you, Steel and others assuredly recall, Doc spent a considerable amount of time playing 2G once Andrew Toney was essentially shelved for the remainder of his career.

Nice out-of-box thinking.

I like M2's team. Mine *might* beat his on the court, but I think his might have a slight edge in the nickname game. "KD". He's my weak link for the latter.

[KoryMac5]

Kyrie will not play any games in Brooklyn...Nets must be regretting that contract.

[M2]

Call it "cheating" if you will, but here's a lineup, separated by eras, comprised of players not listed:

PG: Dame (Now)
SG: Ray Allen (The Recently Retired)
SF: Alex English (The Showtime Era)
PF: Chris Webber (The Basketbrawl Generation)
C: Walt Bellamy (The Black and White Era)

Sixth man (who probably should be starting): Tracy McGrady

I stan for any team with Alex English.

[M2]

Kyrie will not play any games in Brooklyn...Nets must be regretting that contract.

Who'd have thought a flat earther would be a problem?

[Bourgeois Zee]

Kyrie will not play any games in Brooklyn...Nets must be regretting that contract.

Kyrie for Simmons would solve a lot of headaches for both squads.

Irving becomes the lead guard and is undeniably talented. He could score or dish at will. (I suspect he'd eventually have issues with Embiid, but that's typical of both players.) Defensively, this is one team that isn't tanked by his laissez faire approach. They have four would-be stoppers they can throw at the situation. Green could slide down to small forward with Harris down to PF (which makes him more valuable, IMO)-- that opens up wing minutes for Thybulle too. Best of all, the offense becomes a spoke around Embiid to do his thing (without Simmons to screw it up). They can continue to push the ball on the break, and Paul Reed gets some minutes as well.

Simmons moves to Brooklyn as the defensive stopper they need. Pairing him with Durant at the forward spots means Durant doesn't have to do the heavy lifting on defense, but can take the weaker offensive player, thereby saving his legs a bit. Too, Harden moves to PG with Patty Mills or (more likely) Joe Harris as shooters and scorers. Four shooting options around him (including Aldridge, who's shown he's elite in the mid-range and can move out to three-point range) makes Simmons a weapon in the low post too-- or absolutely lethal as a pick and roll guy. (Imagine that pick and roll with Harden and Simmons-- or Simmons and Durant.)

I'd guess Philly would have to throw in something else (Maxey?) and maybe a draft pick on top of that as well.

[SteelSD]

Kyrie for Simmons would solve a lot of headaches for both squads.

Irving becomes the lead guard and is undeniably talented. He could score or dish at will. (I suspect he'd eventually have issues with Embiid, but that's typical of both players.) Defensively, this is one team that isn't tanked by his laissez faire approach. They have four would-be stoppers they can throw at the situation. Green could slide down to small forward with Harris down to PF (which makes him more valuable, IMO)-- that opens up wing minutes for Thybulle too. Best of all, the offense becomes a spoke around Embiid to do his thing (without Simmons to screw it up). They can continue to push the ball on the break, and Paul Reed gets some minutes as well.

Simmons moves to Brooklyn as the defensive stopper they need. Pairing him with Durant at the forward spots means Durant doesn't have to do the heavy lifting on defense, but can take the weaker offensive player, thereby saving his legs a bit. Too, Harden moves to PG with Patty Mills or (more likely) Joe Harris as shooters and scorers. Four shooting options around him (including Aldridge, who's shown he's elite in the mid-range and can move out to three-point range) makes Simmons a weapon in the low post too-- or absolutely lethal as a pick and roll guy. (Imagine that pick and roll with Harden and Simmons-- or Simmons and Durant.)

I'd guess Philly would have to throw in something else (Maxey?) and maybe a draft pick on top of that as well.

Well, there are a couple problems with that. First, Irving is a huge HUGE random, uncontrollable, unpredictable, injury-prone pain in the rear. Second, rumor has it that he'd potentially "retire" if traded; meaning- if he made good on that threat- he might just opt out of the season and/or attempt to force a trade. Been there. Done that. Finally, there's the issue of his contract. He holds a player option for next season, so he's a lame duck to boot.

Philly is not going to move Simmons for that, much less include Maxey and a first rounder in addition to Simmons for that kind of headache and risk.

[SteelSD]

So, according the ESPN announcers, Ben Simmons has arrived in Philly and has already taken a Covid test.

[M2]

Most important piece of Ben Simmons news I've seen the past few days is supposedly he'd have no problem getting traded to Sacramento (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2021/10/10/ben-simmons-reportedly-would-have-no-problem-going-to-sacramento/). Now, why are we hearing that? Pretty much has to be coming from Simmons' camp. I wonder if Daryl Morey is making Rich Paul line up the deal: Sell your guy to another team, get me what I want, then I'll pull the trigger. FWIW, the Trade Machine says Buddy Hield, Tyrese Haliburton and Chimezie Metu get the deal done.

[SteelSD]

Most important piece of Ben Simmons news I've seen the past few days is supposedly he'd have no problem getting traded to Sacramento (https://nba.nbcsports.com/2021/10/10/ben-simmons-reportedly-would-have-no-problem-going-to-sacramento/). Now, why are we hearing that? Pretty much has to be coming from Simmons' camp. I wonder if Daryl Morey is making Rich Paul line up the deal: Sell your guy to another team, get me what I want, then I'll pull the trigger. FWIW, the Trade Machine says Buddy Hield, Tyrese Haliburton and Chimezie Metu get the deal done.

That'd work, especially after I got to see point-Furkan tonight. It was real and it was spectacular.

[klw]

Curry with 41 in the Warriors last preseason game last night. The highlights are worth the two minutes.

[RichRed]

I stan for any team with Alex English.

17762

Star of the classic film “Amazing Grace and Chuck”. Pretty good basketball player too though.

[15fan]

Simmons tossed from practice and suspended for opener for conduct detrimental to the team.

He must have been practicing FTs with team wind sprints required for every one of his misses.

[Rojo Rijo]

Simmons tossed from practice and suspended for opener for conduct detrimental to the team.

He must have been practicing FTs with team wind sprints required for every one of his misses.

Doc told him to join a defensive drill and he refused, Doc asked again and he refused again, then Doc told him to go home and he left.

I am in no way trying to not blame Simmons for his role in this, it's bad, but my goodness Philadelphia needs to do whatever they can to get this resolved via trade.

[SteelSD]

Simmons tossed from practice and suspended for opener for conduct detrimental to the team.

He must have been practicing FTs with team wind sprints required for every one of his misses.

I was half hoping that Simmons tried to pull a Jimmy Butler, but found that none of the third stringers wanted to play with him.

Nice strategy, though. Show up to avoid fines and then get yourself suspended...and fined. Brutally stupid of him.

BTW, google up Embiid's comments on it. I think it's fair to say that he's done with it.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Doc told him to join a defensive drill and he refused, Doc asked again and he refused again, then Doc told him to go home and he left.

I am in no way trying to not blame Simmons for his role in this, it's bad, but my goodness Philadelphia needs to do whatever they can to get this resolved via trade.

Who wants that trade right now? Simmons has tanked his trade value so much I’m not sure it’s even worth it for Philly to trade him.

[15fan]

Simmons and his contract are so toxic Philly should apply for Superfund assistance.

[M2]

I don't think any of this is a major issue for the Sixers. Simmons still has his core skillset and a long-term contract. They have plenty of options to move forward with the current roster and while Simmons twists in the wind. The extra drama makes for good gawking from the outside. Not sure it affects anything on the inside. If Simmons was going to be able to jerk his way out of town, he'd already be gone. The reason why Jimmy Butler and James Harden had leverage is both were making the point their team's were garbage without them. In the Sixers' case, there's no team crisis.