NBA 2022-23 Part 3: Big Buck Hunters

[M2]

Going to need a new thread. Despite dropping a game at Golden State last night, Milwaukee is still on fire, making it the favorite to win the title this season. Everybody else is chasing them.

Questions:

- Who do you have for your top 6's in each conference?

- Which teams do you have for a late surge? I've got the Pacers.

- Which teams are in the most trouble? I'm taking Dallas.

[Bourgeois Zee]

- Which teams do you have for a late surge?

I'm going out on a pretty massive limb and picking the Lakers, assuming LeBron can get his stuff together.

They've got a pretty easy schedule, the supporting cast is pretty solid, and AD is playing some inspired ball (most nights). They've also recognized their shortcomings and have been in "playoff mode" for a couple of weeks.

Most of my reasoning revolves around their remaining schedule. Six wins are nearly guaranteed, as Houston, Detroit, Utah, and Orlando are going to be in full-on tank mode. Then they've got two with Chicago, at 30-36, who might plan to fall as far down the rabbit hole as possible toward the bottom, in order to keep their top-four protected pick from Orlando. OKC is in a similar boat, but with their own pick. They might try to sneak into the top 10, but most likely will slide down in order to grab a lottery pick. The other six games remaining on their schedule include Dallas (in freefall since they've acquired Kyrie), Minnesota (who can't seem to decide whether they're for real or not), and New York (who's got a hobbled star and is perhaps as bad a shooting team as LA).

They'll almost assuredly lose to the Suns (twice) and the Clippers is a toss-up. Other than that, they're a chalk pick or favorite against the remaining 12 teams.

A 12-4 record to close the regular season is possible, but I think 10-6 is more likely. That's enough, IMO, to get them up to perhaps the 6th playoff slot in the West, maybe the 6th.

[SteelSD]

If the claim is that the NBA needs to cut down on the behavior of a few bad apples, I'm not sure I can agree. The effects of that would be felt in Philadelphia, for example, as much as it might be in Golden State or Boston. Embiid is known to play (very) physically, jaw with opponents, and try to get in their heads. Harden does it less often, but has in the past instigated stuff too. I don't want either of those guys out of a game I'm watching-- especially as the playoffs come around. I want them in the game, playing. Ditto Giannis, KAT, Luka, Trae Young, Ant, De'Aaron Fox-- even PatBev, whose whole shtick is to be an irritant-- should be on the floor. That means we have to have some leeway and airtight evidence before kicking guys out of the game.

And the use of video evidence is a great addition. Sure, it's a PITA to wait for 10 minutes while they go to the monitor, but it should ensure, more often than not, culpability. We disagree about Young's tech, btw. At the 17-second mark in the video, after the referee has pushed him away (and the takedown), Young comes right back to Smart, pointing his finger and jawing. Can't do that. It's a tech every time. He deserved it. (I'd have gotten the same tech, fwiw. You too, I suspect.)

Where officials have become circumspect, IMO, is those rabbit ears. Foster is among the worst, for sure. IMO, players should have to say something directly to the ref to get a technical. Like, eye-to-eye "F*#& you!" type of response to a bad call. (Including the you makes it personal. If that's not used, it should almost assuredly be ignored) No harm, no foul.

BZ, the player's you're mentioning- Embiid, Harden, Giannis, Luka, Trae Young, Fox, et al- can be chatty, chirpy, and irritating, no doubt. But they are not violent (Pat Beverly is, which is wrong too), nor do they do they attempt to initiate the kind of physical intimidation like a Brooks, Smart, and yes, Green. Those players are on two different planets regarding their history versus players who are simply physical and irritating. It's really just a red herring because, if they did the kind of crap that plagues the history of Dillon Brooks and Marcus Smart, they should be held accountable as well. But they don't, so that pretty much takes care of that.

And you and I have a completely different take on that 17 second mark in the now-available Smart v Young video. Tre Young did nothing deserving a technical foul. He was backing off, not approaching Smart. He didn't lunge at Smart, nor did he fight against either the official or the Celtics player who were between them. Did he point his finger and jaw a bit while he was disengaged? Sure. But I think that's pretty reasonable given that the a violent dirtbag just tried to injure him. There was no reason to give Young a technical foul for that. The guy did nothing other than be attacked and then object to it. That's as clean as it gets.

[M2]

I'm going out on a pretty massive limb and picking the Lakers, assuming LeBron can get his stuff together.

They've got a pretty easy schedule, the supporting cast is pretty solid, and AD is playing some inspired ball (most nights). They've also recognized their shortcomings and have been in "playoff mode" for a couple of weeks.

Most of my reasoning revolves around their remaining schedule. Six wins are nearly guaranteed, as Houston, Detroit, Utah, and Orlando are going to be in full-on tank mode. Then they've got two with Chicago, at 30-36, who might plan to fall as far down the rabbit hole as possible toward the bottom, in order to keep their top-four protected pick from Orlando. OKC is in a similar boat, but with their own pick. They might try to sneak into the top 10, but most likely will slide down in order to grab a lottery pick. The other six games remaining on their schedule include Dallas (in freefall since they've acquired Kyrie), Minnesota (who can't seem to decide whether they're for real or not), and New York (who's got a hobbled star and is perhaps as bad a shooting team as LA).

They'll almost assuredly lose to the Suns (twice) and the Clippers is a toss-up. Other than that, they're a chalk pick or favorite against the remaining 12 teams.

A 12-4 record to close the regular season is possible, but I think 10-6 is more likely. That's enough, IMO, to get them up to perhaps the 6th playoff slot in the West, maybe the 6th.

I didn't look at remaining strength of schedule (and I should have). I will say that I expect very few teams to go into full tank mode. For instance, I think Orlando will play to the wire, just because it's a team that gives a damn on a nightly basis. The Lakers are 4-2 without LeBron so far. I'm curious how they'll do on the road. Though, if they do 12-4, then the question is will that put them in the top 4? Nobody in the West seems to want that #4 slot.

[Fil3232]

I was expecting A LOT more from the Smart/Young incident…

[M2]

In the name of consistency on Smart whipping Trae onto the court, I gave props to Jeremy Sochan for using that exact method of ****housery against a Morris brother earlier this season. So I can't condemn it.

[SteelSD]

I didn't look at remaining strength of schedule (and I should have). I will say that I expect very few teams to go into full tank mode. For instance, I think Orlando will play to the wire, just because it's a team that gives a damn on a nightly basis. The Lakers are 4-2 without LeBron so far. I'm curious how they'll do on the road. Though, if they do 12-4, then the question is will that put them in the top 4? Nobody in the West seems to want that #4 slot.

While the Lakers don't have Denver or Memphis on their schedule, or any of the top four teams in the East, they do have the following:

Phoenix 2x
NY Knicks
New Orleans (trying to fight for a play-in slot)
Dallas
Chicago (home/at home, see Pels comments)
Utah 2x (again see Pels comments)
LA Clippers

That's not a particularly easy schedule, and most of the "easiest" opponents the Lakers face are fighting for the same thing they are, and it's made all the more difficult without James' return on the immediate horizon. The Dallas game will be pretty important as I believe it'll determine the season series tie-breaker between the two squads, and they're currently tied in the Loss column. Personally, I think the Lakers need to worry more holding their ground, while keeping teams catching them from behind rather than setting their sights on moving up.

[Bourgeois Zee]

BZ, the player's you're mentioning- Embiid, Harden, Giannis, Luka, Trae Young, Fox, et al- can be chatty, chirpy, and irritating, no doubt. But they are not violent (Pat Beverly is, which is wrong too), nor do they do they attempt to initiate the kind of physical intimidation like a Brooks, Smart, and yes, Green.

We disagree. I think several of the players mentioned herein (plus Booker in Phoenix, Butler in Miami, and several others) engage in physical acitivities they know to be over the line. They bait opponents too. The difference, IMO, is that Green does it unrepentently-- and often. Brooks has graduated to that level. So has PatBev.

If you're going to make examples of Green, Beverly, and Brooks, you're going to need to toss really, really good players when they act stupidly too. And I'm not in favor of plunking down $300-$400 for tickets and seeing an Embiid-less Sixers squad take on a Minnesota team missing Gobert and KAT. (Or Ant.)

[SteelSD]

We disagree. I think several of the players mentioned herein (plus Booker in Phoenix, Butler in Miami, and several others) engage in physical acitivities they know to be over the line. They bait opponents too. The difference, IMO, is that Green does it unrepentently-- and often. Brooks has graduated to that level. So has PatBev.

If you're going to make examples of Green, Beverly, and Brooks, you're going to need to toss really, really good players when they act stupidly too. And I'm not in favor of plunking down $300-$400 for tickets and seeing an Embiid-less Sixers squad take on a Minnesota team missing Gobert and KAT. (Or Ant.)

You might not remember, but both Embiid and Towns were suspended for two game each for their fight back in 2019, which was fine, and I'm not going to go blow by blow regarding who the instigator was for that one. That punishment was pretty fair in my book. But you're creating a false comparison between irritants and those who blatantly, consistently take dangerous actions against opponents. I'm not sure why, because I've been talking about actions the entire time.

I'm not stating (and haven't stated) that it's ok for someone like James Harden (or whomever) to behave like a Dillon Brooks or Marcus Smart. What I'm saying is that if players do the kind of things that Dillon Brooks and Marcus Smart have done, used as very recent behavioral examples, those actions deserve more consistent penalties, particularly if they're the instigators. What needs to stop happening is penalizing a Trae Young, despite what you think of his "rep", when he's nothing more than be the aggressor's target. That kind of stuff is truly stupid, as is ignoring the instigation altogether (the Brooks example), or the inequitable practice of throwing double-technicals at two players when only one has actually done something wrong.

[Bourgeois Zee]

You might not remember, but both Embiid and Towns were suspended for two game each for their fight back in 2019, which was fine, and I'm not going to go blow by blow regarding who the instigator was for that one. That punishment was pretty fair in my book. But you're creating a false comparison between irritants and those who blatantly, consistently take dangerous actions against opponents. I'm not sure why, because I've been talking about actions the entire time.

I'm not stating (and haven't stated) that it's ok for someone like James Harden (or whomever) to behave like a Dillon Brooks or Marcus Smart. What I'm saying is that if players do the kind of things that Dillon Brooks and Marcus Smart have done, used as very recent behavioral examples, those actions deserve more consistent penalties, particularly if they're the instigators. What needs to stop happening is penalizing a Trae Young, despite what you think of his "rep", when he's nothing more than be the aggressor's target. That kind of stuff is truly stupid, as is ignoring the instigation altogether (the Brooks example), or the inequitable practice of throwing double-technicals at two players when only one has actually done something wrong.

To be clear, what has Brooks done recently that has crossed the line that other players do not do? What has Greene done?

Is PatBev another example? If so, what has he done recently that goes over the edge for you?

I see Giannis instigated things all the time. Embiid too. Harden three. And KD, for sure. LeBron instigates things as well. Booker instigates crap all the time, as does Luka.

[Bourgeois Zee]

That's not a particularly easy schedule, and most of the "easiest" opponents the Lakers face are fighting for the same thing they are...

Two of those opponents sat their best players tonight. OKC sat SGA in the name of "abdominal strain injury management". Portland sat Lillard.

Indiana sits Haliburton, Turner, and McConnell. San Antonio sits Sochan and Keldon Johnson.

[SteelSD]

To be clear, what has Brooks done recently that has crossed the line that other players do not do? What has Greene done?

Is PatBev another example? If so, what has he done recently that goes over the edge for you?

I see Giannis instigated things all the time. Embiid too. Harden three. And KD, for sure. LeBron instigates things as well. Booker instigates crap all the time, as does Luka.

I just gave you example of behavior in the post you first responded to in the other thread. You couldn't have missed it, so I'm not sure why you're asking for examples now. I even told you what should have happened for both scenarios. I've also made sure to clarify, for your benefit, that I've been talking about behavior, not specific players. I've clearly stated that I don't care who the player is.

But to that disconnected point, your player comps are way off base regarding frequency and severity of the kind of behavior we're talking about, but that's a completely different topic than the one I've been talking about. There's a significant difference between an irritant (Niang is the Sixers guy, BTW, not Embiid or Harden) and someone who consistently pulls violent actions out of their tool bag. You also know that, so I don't really see why you'd be attempting to purposefully conflate the two.

[SteelSD]

Two of those opponents sat their best players tonight. OKC sat SGA in the name of "abdominal strain injury management". Portland sat Lillard.

Indiana sits Haliburton, Turner, and McConnell. San Antonio sits Sochan and Keldon Johnson.

That means New Orleans, should they finish their crushing of Portland, has a chance to move into a tie with the Lakers, should they lose tonight. Ditto for OKC, if they can hold on to their slim lead in San Antonio. Indiana doesn't play the Lakers for the rest of the season, and don't have a game today, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Congrats to the Nuggets for wasting that Joker game.

[SteelSD]

Pretty easy win for the Sixers tonight against Washinton, in what smelled a lot like a trap game. But Washington couldn't get anything going early and, despite pulling within five points at halftime, came out of the locker room afterwards acting as if they'd never heard of a ball going through a hoop. Embiid put up his usual- 34 points and got the entire fourth quarter off for a change, while James Harden supported with 18 points and 14 assists. De'Anthony Melton had a solid game offensively (10 points, 3-for-5 from deep, 6 boards, 4 dimes), and helped hold Bradley Beal in check (13 points on 5-for-12 shooting). Tobias Harris put up 11 points, but looked lost half the time; appearing as if every drive had him praying to whomever is the Patron Saint of Missed Bunnies. Maxey never really got going, but continued to improve on the defensive side of the ball.

The only thing the Wizards had going for them was a 25-point effort from Korey Kispert in 33 minutes off the bench. Porzingis and Kuzma combined to hit only 8 of 29 shots, while the Washington team nailed only 6 of their 26 threes.

There was a late-game Dewayne Dedmon sighting, and he did well- 4 points, 1 board, 1 assist in only five minutes, but man is that guy slow. Like Greg Monroe could beat him the footrace. Maybe James Monroe too. Also got to see Jaden Springer flash defensively over his three minutes late. Still young enough that you almost want to use months for his age (turned 20 in October), he's a defensive nightmare for opponents. If his offensive game catches up (specifically perimeter shooting), he may be an interesting bench option next season.

[Bourgeois Zee]

I just gave you example of behavior in the post you first responded to in the other thread. You couldn't have missed it, so I'm not sure why you're asking for examples now. I even told you what should have happened for both scenarios. I've also made sure to clarify, for your benefit, that I've been talking about behavior, not specific players. I've clearly stated that I don't care who the player is.

But to that disconnected point, your player comps are way off base regarding frequency and severity of the kind of behavior we're talking about, but that's a completely different topic than the one I've been talking about. There's a significant difference between an irritant (Niang is the Sixers guy, BTW, not Embiid or Harden) and someone who consistently pulls violent actions out of their tool bag. You also know that, so I don't really see why you'd be attempting to purposefully conflate the two.

Okay. It's clear you can't have this conversation with me.

[SteelSD]

Okay. It's clear you can't have this conversation with me.

No, it's just that I'm not going to have the conversation YOU want to have. You have a very nice night now.

[M2]

Congrats to the Nuggets for wasting that Joker game.

On the flip side, did Jacque Vaughn figure it out for the Nets for a second time this season?

[M2]

Trey Murphy with 41 tonight for Nola in an easy win over the Blazers (with no Ingram or Zion). Lived up to his name, going 9-14 from behind the arc.

[Rojo Rijo]

Just watched the Smart-Young clip. Young clearly kicked his right leg out to draw contact and caught Smart right in the downstairs. Making contact with that area may have been inadvertent but kicking the leg out to draw contact was intentional. I don't blame Smart at all for his reaction. It looks like he went straight to Young to tell him that was wrong and of course things escalated because Smart initiated physical contact. Young is notorious for flailing limbs and initiating ridiculous contact with defenders to draw fouls. However, outcome should not have been a tech on Trae.

[Kingspoint]

Trey Murphy with 41 tonight for Nola in an easy win over the Blazers (with no Ingram or Zion). Lived up to his name, going 9-14 from behind the arc.

Just hoping that this can get Billups fired.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Boston we have a problem.

[Fil3232]

Bucks/Kings playing a playoff dress rehearsal in Sactown. Newsflash here: Giannis is a problem.

[SteelSD]

Bucks/Kings playing a playoff dress rehearsal in Sactown. Newsflash here: Giannis is a problem.

Kings got within two late, but then just fell apart.

[Fil3232]

3Q was the real culprit, but a great learning game for the Kings. They need these quasi-playoff atmospheres as much as possible before the real deal.

[M2]

Bucks/Kings playing a playoff dress rehearsal in Sactown. Newsflash here: Giannis is a problem.

If the Bucks stay healthy, I don't know if anyone can stop them.

[Fil3232]

If the Bucks stay healthy, I don't know if anyone can stop them.

Yeah, I kind of think that too. I’m almost of the mind you run bench bodies at Giannis all game and try to shut off Middleton, Holiday and Lopez. Hope Giannis gets tuckered out lol.

[Mutaman]

Giannis finally returns and reminds everyone who he is.
Brook Lopez shows off his Tiger Williams side.

[M2]

Yeah, I kind of think that too. I’m almost of the mind you run bench bodies at Giannis all game and try to shut off Middleton, Holiday and Lopez. Hope Giannis gets tuckered out lol.

Holiday is the one who, IMO, makes them extra heavy come the playoffs. He's the Dennis Johnson/Joe Dumars/Mo Cheeks type who's there to beat you in whatever way you need to beaten on a given night. When he cranks it up to 38-40 minutes a game in the playoffs I think he's going to devour opposing guards.

[KoryMac5]

I feel like Dallas is doing a very strange tank job...or they just suck...both Luka and Kyrie being injured at the same time this late in the season is certainly a strategy. I fear Luka's thigh was worse than anticipated and with Kyrie ailing they are trying to work into the top 13.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Pretty fun Philly Cleveland game tonight. This is Cleveland’s last shot to have any chance of getting the 3. 2 back with a win 4 back with a loss. Philly has been red hot and should be a good test for both teams.

This is all a little dependent on Allen playing. He’s missed the last 3 with an eye injury he picked up in Miami.

[M2]

I feel like Dallas is doing a very strange tank job...or they just suck...both Luka and Kyrie being injured at the same time this late in the season is certainly a strategy. I fear Luka's thigh was worse than anticipated and with Kyrie ailing they are trying to work into the top 13.

With Kyrie "injury" could mean a lot of things. Dallas still hasn't given him a max extension and that might make his foot sore. Seems like the ultimate value of the Kyrie trade might be that the Mavs can retrench this summer. They should have some space to operate. For instance, can they get in on KAT?

[M2]

All of a sudden Denver is staggering and now Jah is in indeterminant rehab (for undefined reasons) for Memphis. It kind of throws the door in the West wide open. I mean, why not the Kings? And if there was ever going to be a year where a lower seed gets to the finals, this could be it.

[BuckeyeRed27]

All of a sudden Denver is staggering and now Jah is in indeterminant rehab (for undefined reasons) for Memphis. It kind of throws the door in the West wide open. I mean, why not the Kings? And if there was ever going to be a year where a lower seed gets to the finals, this could be it.

Sounds like Ja had a nice weekend in rehab and plans to be back soon.

Edit: actually he was just suspended 8 games

[Kingspoint]

In response to the subject on the previous thread, a fan has to hope that his team does not get Scott Foster reffing any of his favorite team's playoff games.

[M2]

Sounds like Ja had a nice weekend in rehab and plans to be back soon.

Edit: actually he was just suspended 8 games

Something's up with Memphis. Ja's gone off the rails (definitely seen a dip in his play too). Dillon Brooks is carving out a niche as the most self-destructive player to his own team in the NBA. JJJ is a completely blah 16.5/6.3, .465 eFG% since the All-Star break.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Nice win for the Cavs. Too bad the refs disagreed.

[M2]

Nice win for the Cavs. Too bad the refs disagreed.

I didn't see the game, but nine points? From the boxscore seems like Philly was on a bit of a bender from 3.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I didn't see the game, but nine points? From the boxscore seems like Philly was on a bit of a bender from 3.

Embiid fouled out with 6 minutes to go. They inexplicably overturned it AND gave him the basket from the offensive foul. So it went Embiid out with 6 minutes to go and 5 point game, to him not out and a 7 point game. There was also a missed travel that would have given the Cavs the ball back with about a minute when it was 4 or 5 points.

Sixers might have won, but that call overturn was just cheating BS.

[SteelSD]

Gritty win by the Sixers tonight, overcoming some home cooking from the officials early on, and maybe benefitting from some themselves for a change. Down by 13 early in the third quarter, Philly went on a 16-to-1 run to take the lead. After watching the game flip-flop into the fourth, Philly finally gained separation as Cleveland went ice-cold from the field. Leading by 7 points at the 4:12 mark, that's when the controversy happened. Joel Embiid, already picking up a dumb fifth foul, looked like fouled out when he game an arm shiver to Evan Mobley, who proceeded to flop hard. Philly challenged, and the officials overturned the call, deeming the contact marginal and counted Embiid's made jumper to put the Sixers up by nine.

Frankly, I thought Embiid had fouled out on the play and it was pretty surprising to see the overturn, considering that he doesn't get "superstar" calls pretty much ever. In the end, Embiid's presence on the floor for the last four minutes really didn't matter. He didn't score a single point or grab a single rebound the rest of the way and gave Donovan Mitchell at least two free runs to the hoop rather than challenging him for fear of that sixth foul. Philly simply made bigger shots down the stretch, hit their free throws, and that was ballgame. It actually shouldn't have been that close, but the Sixers piled a ton of unforced turnovers into the 18 they had on the night. The win wrapped up the season series versus the Cavs; effectively putting them 7 games down in the Loss column.

James Harden took control of the offense in the fourth, finishing with 28 points and 12 dimes. Tyrese Maxey pitched in with 23 points, hitting 5 of his 7 threes. Shake Milton and Georges Niang were key in the second half run, hitting timely threes. Tobias was, again, a non-factor, but P.J. Tucker, finishing with only five points, also grabbed six boards (four offensive) and logged three steals, maybe giving us a preview of his "playoff" defense. The guy was everywhere and when Embiid wasn't blocking Mobley's shots, Tucker was keeping him from the lane while also switching onto guards.

For the Cavs, I'm not sure what was going on with their starters, who all finished at -8 or lower +/-. Only Donovan Mitchell seemed to get it going for a brief time, but hit only one of his seven three-point attempts. Garland had identical numbers from deep, and hit only 6 of his 17 shots. Caris LaVert was the best thing going for the Cavs, with 24 points and hitting five of his ten threes, but after the bench was great against Philly in the first half, they allowed the Sixers to hold steady in the fourth quarter until the starters returned to put the game away.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I mean Embiid on the floor matters if he scores or not, plus they counted the bucket, which was a huge bucket. It was just a BS call that ruined a really fun game.

It was back and forth, with lots of runs and was really evenly matched.

Mitchell had his finger injury aggravated on a foul (one that was called and actually not overturned). He’s struggled a bit from outside the last week since that happened.

Cavs can’t cough up 13 point home leads though, or at least that quickly. Didn’t score for 5 minutes and if they go though that with even a 5 point lead they win.

Also I know you’re a Sixers fan so you can’t see it, but I’m here to tell you Embiid gets a TON of superstar calls. He gets an annoying amount of superstar calls. Which, he’s a super star, it’s gonna happen. But you really need to put that narrative to bed.

[M2]

Embiid fouled out with 6 minutes to go. They inexplicably overturned it AND gave him the basket from the offensive foul. So it went Embiid out with 6 minutes to go and 5 point game, to him not out and a 7 point game.

I haven't seen a zillion angles of it, but I have now seen it and my take is the defender oversold it. Embiid has his arm up, but the defender flies away from it to sell the call rather than tries to go through it. Philly challenged the call and I suspect the refs were looking at it as a case of it could been seen as a foul or as a dive. Then they apply the "Do we want to foul the MVP candidate out of a game on an either way call?" standard and that pushes it into the dive column. I understand how a Cavs fan is going to hate that standard, but I suspect Mitchell would get the same deference were the situations reversed.

Mainly, my initial reaction to it was one I have frequently in soccer, which is the physics of the contact and the drama of the sell were incongruous. That's where the refs landed when they took a second look at it due to the challenge.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I haven't seen a zillion angles of it, but I have now seen it and my take is the defender oversold it. Embiid has his arm up, but the defender flies away from it to sell the call rather than tries to go through it. Philly challenged the call and I suspect the refs were looking at it as a case of it could been seen as a foul or as a dive. Then they apply the "Do we want to foul the MVP candidate out of a game on an either way call?" standard and that pushes it into the dive column. I understand how a Cavs fan is going to hate that standard, but I suspect Mitchell would get the same deference were the situations reversed.

Mainly, my initial reaction to it was one I have frequently in soccer, which is the physics of the contact and the drama of the sell were incongruous. That's where the refs landed when they took a second look at it due to the challenge.

Mobley absolutely sold it a bit, but that’s called good defense. If a dude that weighs 70 more pounds than you extends his arm on the move, you do what Mobley did.

Honestly if they didn’t call it on the floor, I’d be mad but it’s what happens. The fact that it was an overturn is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no basis to overrule that. None.

[M2]

Mobley absolutely sold it a bit, but that’s called good defense. If a dude that weighs 70 more pounds than you extends his arm on the move, you do what Mobley did.

Honestly if they didn’t call it on the floor, I’d be mad but it’s what happens. The fact that it was an overturn is just ridiculous. There is absolutely no basis to overrule that. None.

I think you try to go through the arm and then you get the call. The overrule is Mobley took a dive and they decided not to foul Embiid out of the game for that. The "but I tricked you fair and square" argument didn't hold up on review.

Think about it if you were on the other side. The refs take a look, it's pretty clearly a dive and they don't overturn it. I suspect that would not sit well either. On a call like that, somebody's going to be mad. I think probably the best outcome in that situation is the one where everybody keeps playing basketball.

Refs are going to use discretion. I'll give an example from a different sport/game from yesterday. With 40 seconds left in extra time of the Madrid-Liverpool Champions League clash, a Liverpool defender had the ball come off his extended arm in the box. He didn't mean to do it. It was just bad luck. Doesn't matter, his arm's out and his hand played the ball in the box and, by the letter of the law, that's a penalty. BUT Madrid was up four goals in the tie and a penalty there would be piling on. So the ref, who swallowed his whistle in live time, gets told to go take a look at it and he invents a new, one-time-only standard: the ball wasn't net-bound when it made contact with the hand therefore no penalty. That's not a rule. Total fabrication, but it gets everybody home quicker in a contest that's already over. And he was right to do it no matter how much I might have enjoyed a paso de la muerte goal.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I think you try to go through the arm and then you get the call. The overrule is Mobley took a dive and they decided not to foul Embiid out of the game for that. The "but I tricked you fair and square" argument didn't hold up on review.

Think about it if you were on the other side. The refs take a look, it's pretty clearly a dive and they don't overturn it. I suspect that would not sit well either. On a call like that, somebody's going to be mad. I think probably the best outcome in that situation is the one where everybody keeps playing basketball.

Refs are going to use discretion. I'll give an example from a different sport/game from yesterday. With 40 seconds left in extra time of the Madrid-Liverpool Champions League clash, a Liverpool defender had the ball come off his extended arm in the box. He didn't mean to do it. It was just bad luck. Doesn't matter, his arm's out and his hand played the ball in the box and, by the letter of the law, that's a penalty. BUT Madrid was up four goals in the tie and a penalty there would be piling on. So the ref, who swallowed his whistle in live time, gets told to go take a look at it and he invents a new, one-time-only standard: the ball wasn't net-bound when it made contact with the hand therefore no penalty. That's not a rule. Total fabrication, but it gets everybody home quicker in a contest that's already over. And he was right to do it no matter how much I might have enjoyed a paso de la muerte goal.

But it wasn’t a dive. He just sold the foul. He was fouled. Now you are just punishing Mobley for playing good defense and rewarding Embiid for fouling someone PLUS giving him a crucial basket that he made after the foul.

The Liverpool thing is a different situation. If Philly was up 30, ok whatever, but they were up 5 with a lot of time left. If it was 2-1 Madrid and Modric got a red card in the 70th minute and now the ref starts making up rules…now we are talking.

[M2]

But it wasn’t a dive. He just sold the foul. He was fouled. Now you are just punishing Mobley for playing good defense and rewarding Embiid for fouling someone PLUS giving him a crucial basket that he made after the foul.

The Liverpool thing is a different situation. If Philly was up 30, ok whatever, but they were up 5 with a lot of time left. If it was 2-1 Madrid and Modric got a red card in the 70th minute and now the ref starts making up rules…now we are talking.

He sold the foul by diving. Players do it all the time. Some are gifted at it. From that display, Mobley less so. I'm not judging his character for it, but the physics of the reaction were way over the top. And it wasn't good defense because it ultimately didn't work. He oversold it and the refs were less than convinced by his performance upon review. What we'll never know is whether Embiid's backstep beat him or if Mobley could have contested the shot had he not flung himself backward like he just touched an electric fence. I maintain the best defense would have been continuing to try to play defense. Then we'd know if the forearm prevent him from defending the play rather than it looking like he got beat and tried to buy a call.

And they awarded the basket because the ball went in the net. If it's not a foul, it's a basket.

As for the soccer part of it, my point's about discretion. Refs are going to use it. In this case, you're generally not going to get the other team's best player out of the game with that sort of embellishment. The refs are going to land on the side of not sending the guy to the showers.

[BuckeyeRed27]

He sold the foul by diving. Players do it all the time. Some are gifted at it. From that display, Mobley less so. I'm not judging his character for it, but the physics of the reaction were way over the top. And it wasn't good defense because it ultimately didn't work. He oversold it and the refs were less than convinced by his performance upon review. What we'll never know is whether Embiid's backstep beat him or if Mobley could have contested the shot had he not flung himself backward like he just touched an electric fence. I maintain the best defense would have been continuing to try to play defense. Then we'd know if the forearm prevent him from defending the play rather than it looking like he got beat and tried to buy a call.

And they awarded the basket because the ball went in the net. If it's not a foul, it's a basket.

As for the soccer part of it, my point's about discretion. Refs are going to use it. In this case, you're generally not going to get the other team's best player out of the game with that sort of embellishment. The refs are going to land on the side of not sending the guy to the showers.

It’s hard to continue playing defense when a 7 foot 300 pound guy pushes you in the chest while you are moving backwards. That’s why they call it a foul.

[M2]

It’s hard to continue playing defense when a 7 foot 300 pound guy pushes you in the chest while you are moving backwards. That’s why they call it a foul.

That's the problem. Because Mobley chose the door where he flings himself backwards, the refs ultimately didn't buy that the forearm prevented him from playing defense. The physics of what Mobley did don't match the physics of what Embiid did, so as a non-invested observer I'm inclined to treat it as a non-call. That's what I would like to see a ref do in that situation with any two random teams involved. It looks more likely to me Embiid beat Mobley with the backstep, made a minor bit of contact and Mobley tried to buy a call.

And I totally get how you see it different (regardless of the teams involved), though that gets to my general take on sports officiating that they're constantly making judgement calls.

[BuckeyeRed27]

That's the problem. Because Mobley chose the door where he flings himself backwards, the refs ultimately didn't buy that the forearm prevented him from playing defense. The physics of what Mobley did don't match the physics of what Embiid did, so as a non-invested observer I'm inclined to treat it as a non-call. That's what I would like to see a ref do in that situation with any two random teams involved. It looks more likely to me Embiid beat Mobley with the backstep, made a minor bit of contact and Mobley tried to buy a call.

And I totally get how you see it different (regardless of the teams involved), though that gets to my general take on sports officiating that they're constantly making judgement calls.

It wasn’t a non call. It was called. It’s ridiculous to make it a no call. Overturning that call is not on any way what replay is for. It’s a foul. It was called a foul. And because it’s Embiid and a game on espn it became not a foul. That’s BS.

[M2]

It wasn’t a non call. It was called. It’s ridiculous to make it a no call. Overturning that call is not on any way what replay is for. It’s a foul. It was called a foul. And because it’s Embiid and a game on espn it became not a foul. That’s BS.

Replay is for reviewing the play. They reviewed the play and determined it looked like Mobley embellished. My guess is when you see that play live it feels like a foul, but I only ever saw it on video and got to rewatch it multiple times instantly, so I landed where the refs (who also watched it multiple times) landed. Ultimately they didn't buy it, and I think any "name" player is going to have it go for them the way Embiid did.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Replay is for reviewing the play. They reviewed the play and determined it looked like Mobley embellished. My guess is when you see that play live it feels like a foul, but I only ever saw it on video and got to rewatch it multiple times instantly, so I landed where the refs (who also watched it multiple times) landed. Ultimately they didn't buy it, and I think any "name" player is going to have it go for them the way Embiid did.

Sorry man, that’s just not what replay is for. There has to be clear and conclusive evidence the call was wrong. Like you said, it was a judgement call. There is contact and his arm extends. That’s it. End of conversation. What Mobley does after that in a replay situation is completely irrelevant. They got it wrong and we all know why.

[SteelSD]

Sorry man, that’s just not what replay is for. There has to be clear and conclusive evidence the call was wrong. Like you said, it was a judgement call. There is contact and his arm extends. That’s it. End of conversation. What Mobley does after that in a replay situation is completely irrelevant. They got it wrong and we all know why.

What Mobley did was begin bleating before he was touched, took a skip backwards, and then flopped like a landed carp.

Oh, he still might have been fouled, but DAMN.

[M2]

Sorry man, that’s just not what replay is for. There has to be clear and conclusive evidence the call was wrong. Like you said, it was a judgement call. There is contact and his arm extends. That’s it. End of conversation. What Mobley does after that in a replay situation is completely irrelevant. They got it wrong and we all know why.

Obviously it wasn't the end of the conversation, and I think they got it right. Seemed like normal contact and a hard sell.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Obviously it wasn't the end of the conversation, and I think they got it right. Seemed like normal contact and a hard sell.

They just didn’t. Like I said, they call it on the court that way, fine whatever. But once it goes to replay, it’s just did they miss this, not let’s do a deep dive into how right the call was. It doesn’t need to be 51% right.

It was a foul. There was contact. That is an indisputable fact. That’s it. The rest of what happened is cheating BS and again, we all know why.

[BuckeyeRed27]

What Mobley did was begin bleating before he was touched, took a skip backwards, and then flopped like a landed carp.

Oh, he still might have been fouled, but DAMN.

Bolded the only part of your nonsense that mattered last night.

[Kingspoint]

When it comes to calling fouls of a big vs a small defender, 90% of the time, the small defender tries to flop as part of their Defense. Some are better at the timing than others. The refs are usually expecting it before the play occurs.

But, what it seems to always come down to has nothing to do whatsoever with whether there was a foul or not, but it seems to have more to do with who the player is doing the flopping and who the player is that is the big man down on the block. NBA hierarchy as far as player popularity according to the NBA seems to have 90% of the reasons on who gets a foul called on them or whether it becomes a non-call. Rarely does it ever have anything to do with the right call being made because it's the right call. Who does the NBA want to favor and who do they not want to favor seems to be the reasons for making the call most of the time.

[M2]

It doesn’t need to be 51% right.

It was a foul. There was contact. That is an indisputable fact. That’s it. The rest of what happened is cheating BS and again, we all know why.

This is where I hard disagree. I think 51% is the general standard they use (typed it in the last post, but dropped it for being too wordy), and that plays out constantly in NBA games. In fact I'm not sure NBA referees could make it any more clear that 51% is their working standard. It's rarely a black-and-white game. Probably above all other things, my primary thought on teams sports in which people are chasing a ball or puck is there are no absolutes. That's why I pretty much never comment on the refs. They make the calls they make. Even when I disagree with them I usually can see why they took an opposing view.

Beyond that, there's (pardon the pun) constant contact in NBA games. All contact isn't a foul. I don't think it's possible to determine if that particular contact was a foul due to Mobley's bad acting, and the refs were less than impressed when they got a second look at it.

[BuckeyeRed27]

This is where I hard disagree. I think 51% is the general standard they use (typed it in the last post, but dropped it for being too wordy), and that plays out constantly in NBA games. In fact I'm not sure NBA referees could make it any more clear that 51% is their working standard. It's rarely a black-and-white game. Probably above all other things, my primary thought on teams sports in which people are chasing a ball or puck is there are no absolutes. That's why I pretty much never comment on the refs. They make the calls they make. Even when I disagree with them I usually can see why they took an opposing view.

Beyond that, there's (pardon the pun) constant contact in NBA games. All contact isn't a foul. I don't think it's possible to determine if that particular contact was a foul due to Mobley's bad acting, and the refs were less than impressed when they got a second look at it.

Not in reviews. You keep mixing general officiating with reviews. Reviews are not meant to be used to make judgements. It’s was their contact, who touched it last, etc.

There was contact. There is absolutely no dispute in that. Embiid made contact and the ref called a foul. The only overturn now is if Embiid actually didn’t make contact, it was just an acting flop, which was not the case. The refs were wrong.

I’m done talking about this. I don’t have anything else to add. The refs messed up.

[M2]

What got into the Pacers tonight? They beat the Bucks by 25 in the 2nd half, on the road. Andrew Nembhard, Aaron Nesmith and T.J. McConnell led the way. I am impressed.

[SteelSD]

Bolded the only part of your nonsense that mattered last night.

Nonsense? When have you not been spouting nonsense about the Sixers while dramatically overrating your Cavs squad, ya' silly homer?

BuckeyeRed27 11/30/22:
The 2nd quarter was indeed crazy. Cavs were hot, but the 76ers didn’t show any interest in playing defense and , Embiid looked disengaged even before they got run off the court.

Give them a bit of a break since Maxey and Harden weren’t there…but I think that’s a team in serious trouble.

Almost immediately after that game, the Sixers went on a run that represents be the best record in the NBA from then to present. "Serious trouble" indeed...apparently for the rest of the NBA...except the Celtics...damn them.

BuckeyeRed27 02/16/23:
Yeah the four extra games Philly has are just a disadvantage at this point because it’s over the same amount of time. Cleveland has maybe 1 schedule loss I can see. Philly has 3, maybe 4. Plus they play each other again in Cleveland.

It’ll be close but I’d guess Cleveland gets the 3 by 1 or 2 games.

Coming out of the All-Star break, the Sixers have effectively gained 3 additional games on the Cavs in the Loss column as Cleveland has struggled to a 6-5 post-ASB record. Only took a month for that one to turn south on ya'. But that's on the Cavs, not the Sixers, not the officials, nor was it caused by four minutes of Joel Embiid standing on the court acting as Donovan Mitchell's personal turnstile to the rim.

[Revering4Blue]

What got into the Pacers tonight? They beat the Bucks by 25 in the 2nd half, on the road. Andrew Nembhard, Aaron Nesmith and T.J. McConnell led the way. I am impressed.

The first Pacers victory over the Bucks - road or home- in what seems like forever.

No Lopez, Allen or Crowder for the Bucks. No Haliburton, Mathurin or Duarte for Indy.

I’m still totally on the Bucks are team to beat bandwagon. They’ll probably bludgeon the next team by 30 points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SteelSD]

The first Pacers victory over the Bucks - road or home- in what seems like forever.

No Lopez, Allen or Crowder for the Bucks. No Haliburton, Mathurin or Duarte for Indy.

I’m still totally on the Bucks are team to beat bandwagon. They’ll probably bludgeon the next team by 30 points.

You might be right about the Bucks. But every day, every night, the Pacers are gonna Pacer. That team just never seems out of any game.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Nonsense? When have you not been spouting nonsense about the Sixers while dramatically overrating your Cavs squad, ya' silly homer?

BuckeyeRed27 11/30/22:

Almost immediately after that game, the Sixers went on a run that represents be the best record in the NBA from then to present. "Serious trouble" indeed...apparently for the rest of the NBA...except the Celtics...damn them.

BuckeyeRed27 02/16/23:

Coming out of the All-Star break, the Sixers have effectively gained 3 additional games on the Cavs in the Loss column as Cleveland has struggled to a 6-5 post-ASB record. Only took a month for that one to turn south on ya'. But that's on the Cavs, not the Sixers, not the officials, nor was it caused by four minutes of Joel Embiid standing on the court acting as Donovan Mitchell's personal turnstile to the rim.

Sixers have been great man. Had some huge wins including that road win in Milwaukee and handled the west coast trip. Thought they’d drop a couple there and if they did and the Cavs won last night, it’s tight. Credit to Philly.

The part you didn’t bold in my first statement is pretty key. They played that game without Harden and Maxey. I honestly wasn’t sure what Harden was going to give this team and if you’re being honest you didn’t either on Nov 30. He has basically reinvented himself into the best version of what this team needs and obviously the Sixers have been a lot better for it. If he’s Brooklyn/Houston Harden the Sixers were in a lot of trouble.

Lastly, you really don’t have to be a dick all the time. Just talk hoops and drop the crap. I don’t ever spout nonsense. I like basketball and I’m happy to throw out my takes. I’m not always right and I don’t try or pretend to be. But I do watch a lot of games and know what I’m talking about. I don’t disrespect you, so how about you show the same courtesy.

Have a good one.

[M2]

Not in reviews. You keep mixing general officiating with reviews. Reviews are not meant to be used to make judgements. It’s was their contact, who touched it last, etc.

There was contact. There is absolutely no dispute in that. Embiid made contact and the ref called a foul. The only overturn now is if Embiid actually didn’t make contact, it was just an acting flop, which was not the case. The refs were wrong.

I’m done talking about this. I don’t have anything else to add. The refs messed up.

That is not how reviews work. You can insist that's how they should, but they don't. It's as simple as the refs review the play and determine whether the call stands. The call on the court is not sacrosanct. Refs certainly don't treat them like they are.

Their own decision makes it pretty clear that contact was not the determining factor. They deemed it (probably) regular contact (who knows because Mobley flopped) and reversed the call. You're drawing lines where they don't exist.

And I think this buries the lead, which is Cleveland needs to be able to win that game regardless of that call. Just pretend everybody is the Celtics and win in overtime.

[M2]

I’m still totally on the Bucks are team to beat bandwagon. They’ll probably bludgeon the next team by 30 points.

That lucky next team is the Raptors.

[SteelSD]

Ok, so Joel Embiid has allegedly passed Nikola Jokic as the favorite for NBA MVP. I was kind of shocked given how much the Zach Lowes of the world overrate the guy's game.

But after Denver's recent loss to San Antonio, the following video was compiled and subsequently went viral:


https://twitter.com/i/status/1634568492660948993

I warn anyone clicking on that link that they're about to witness one of the most disgusting defensive efforts you're likely to see. It may approach an NSFW level of shocking. Have we finally seen something so heinous that it almost demands voters rethink handing another MVP award to a one-way player whose offensive game is largely a construct of the Nuggets system? I dunno, but it's right there in Technicolor.

[SteelSD]

Lastly, you really don’t have to be a dick all the time. Just talk hoops and drop the crap. I don’t ever spout nonsense. I like basketball and I’m happy to throw out my takes. I’m not always right and I don’t try or pretend to be. But I do watch a lot of games and know what I’m talking about. I don’t disrespect you, so how about you show the same courtesy.

Have a good one.

You're not demonstrating respect or any amount of courtesy when you call someone's post "nonsense" or when you preemptively accuse them of some kind of bias. It's pretty darned easy to get courteous treatment from me, but that's the opposite of how.

No hard feelings. You have a good night too.

[Kingspoint]

The first Pacers victory over the Bucks - road or home- in what seems like forever.

No Lopez, Allen or Crowder for the Bucks. No Haliburton, Mathurin or Duarte for Indy.

I’m still totally on the Bucks are team to beat bandwagon. They’ll probably bludgeon the next team by 30 points.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

21 "3"'s can do it every time.
POR now a game ahead of IND for the 6th best lottery chances.

[Mutaman]

Big revenge game for George Hill and Nwora. Pacers had 22 threes to the Bucks 11. Some guy named TJ Mcconnell was +36. Bucks ran up a nice lead and then took the rest of the night off. Indiana scored 49 in the third quarter. Middleton continues to be unable to put 2 good games together, Connaughton hasn't been the same since his injury.

No longer any doubt how important Lopez is to this team.

[Kingspoint]

Ok, so Joel Embiid has allegedly passed Nikola Jokic as the favorite for NBA MVP. I was kind of shocked given how much the Zach Lowes of the world overrate the guy's game.

But after Denver's recent loss to San Antonio, the following video was compiled and subsequently went viral:


https://twitter.com/i/status/1634568492660948993

I warn anyone clicking on that link that they're about to witness one of the most disgusting defensive efforts you're likely to see. It may approach an NSFW level of shocking. Have we finally seen something so heinous that it almost demands voters rethink handing another MVP award to a one-way player whose offensive game is largely a construct of the Nuggets system? I dunno, but it's right there in Technicolor.

That video is pretty funny, but it's no different than what he's been his entire career.

- - - Updated - - -


Big revenge game for George Hill and Nwora. Pacers had 22 threes to the Bucks 11. Some guy named TJ Mcconnell was +36. Bucks ran up a nice lead and then took the rest of the night off. Indiana scored 49 in the third quarter. Middleton continues to be unable to put 2 good games together, Connaughton hasn't been the same since his injury.

No longer any doubt how important Lopez is to this team.

Connaughton is as important to them winning a Championship as Middleton.

[Mutaman]

Connaughton is as important to them winning a Championship as Middleton.


Don't know if I agree with that- picking up Ingles and Crowder has lessened Pat's importance. But Bud loves him and continues to play him 20 min per night. Can't forget how important he was in winning that ring.

[M2]

I was kind of shocked given how much the Zach Lowes of the world overrate the guy's game.

Despite playing a human pylon in that Spurs game, I don't think it's possible to overrate Jokic's game. He's amazing, and he usually plays defense.

I think Embiid probably deserves to be ahead in the MVP vote at this moment, though the close of the season is going to matter a lot between Embiid, Jokic and Giannis. Oh, who am I kidding? Jrue Holiday for MVP. Lock my vote.

[Kingspoint]

Don't know if I agree with that- picking up Ingles and Crowder has lessened Pat's importance. But Bud loves him and continues to play him 20 min per night. Can't forget how important he was in winning that ring.

I'm speaking in terms from what I've seen from interviews with MIL Coaches and how much they used him during the playoffs last season, and at what critical moments he was on the floor, which you refer to with Bud.

[BuckeyeRed27]

You're not demonstrating respect or any amount of courtesy when you call someone's post "nonsense" or when you preemptively accuse them of some kind of bias. It's pretty darned easy to get courteous treatment from me, but that's the opposite of how.

No hard feelings. You have a good night too.

I didn’t like your post to me, so I pushed back. It’s fine, we will both do better going forward.

[BuckeyeRed27]

That is not how reviews work. You can insist that's how they should, but they don't. It's as simple as the refs review the play and determine whether the call stands. The call on the court is not sacrosanct. Refs certainly don't treat them like they are.

Their own decision makes it pretty clear that contact was not the determining factor. They deemed it (probably) regular contact (who knows because Mobley flopped) and reversed the call. You're drawing lines where they don't exist.

And I think this buries the lead, which is Cleveland needs to be able to win that game regardless of that call. Just pretend everybody is the Celtics and win in overtime.

It is how reviews work. What they are saying in that play is that there was no contact, it was just a flop. If that’s their view that it wrong. Again on the court they could have said that, but not in replay. That isn’t the bar. I’m not mad at this simply because the call went against the team I wanted to win, it’s because it’s the only replay in the NBA all season that’s worked like that. They didn’t want to foul out the possible MVP on a nationally televised game. It doesn’t look, sound or smell right because it wasn’t.

And yes Cleveland needed to win that game because they had a 13 point second half lead. That call was an important turning point though, can’t just shrug it off.

[M2]

It is how reviews work.

No, it isn't. IRL they give themselves the broadest possible latitude to arrive at whatever they think the correct call is. They do it in game after game after game. Fans are constantly insisting "they can't do that." but they keep doing it. Sometimes the Two Minute Report says they shouldn't have done that, but the Two Minute Report is a joke designed to assuage the hurt feelings of fans and (mostly) bettors. Nothing changes. No consequences are levied for refs using replay as a history eraser button.

So when they looked at the Embiid-Mobley play, contact clearly wasn't the measuring stick they chose to apply. And they most definitely felt like they had the ability to choose. What they decided was Mobley conned them into a whistle and ex post facto they swallowed the whistle. What you say they have to do is belied by what they did do, and they make similar rulings on a nightly basis. Your insistence is because they screwed it up in the first place they can't change it (or even the reverse), but NBA officials do not subscribe to that line of thinking. They can and they frequently do.

Where we agree is they're protective of superstars. I'll say it again, if you want to foul the other team's best player out of a game, Mobley's dive is generally not going to stand up on review. I expect Donovan Mitchell or any other All-Star level player would have gotten similar deference. As a neutral observer, I am 100% good with that. I don't want top players getting sat down early due to trickeration, even though I fully recognize there is an art to trickeration. If the best you can do is a deep maybe, keep the best players in the game. Your best should have to beat their best, not get there thanks to a bad call on step back.

What's already being remembered from that game is Embiid had a monster night and he's surged to the front of the MVP discussion. The overturned call is being relegated to the mist of message boards. I know we're not going to agree, so I'll leave it here, but I think basketball was better served by the call that got made.

[M2]

I'm speaking in terms from what I've seen from interviews with MIL Coaches and how much they used him during the playoffs last season, and at what critical moments he was on the floor, which you refer to with Bud.

Last time Middleton was healthy in the playoffs he won them a title, so I'd say he's pretty important. BTW, I like Connaughton and I think he should be above Allen (who is going to get eaten by better teams) in the pecking order. Nice player. Definitely should play an important role in their championship this season.

[SteelSD]

It is how reviews work. What they are saying in that play is that there was no contact, it was just a flop. If that’s their view that it wrong. Again on the court they could have said that, but not in replay. That isn’t the bar. I’m not mad at this simply because the call went against the team I wanted to win, it’s because it’s the only replay in the NBA all season that’s worked like that. They didn’t want to foul out the possible MVP on a nationally televised game. It doesn’t look, sound or smell right because it wasn’t.

And yes Cleveland needed to win that game because they had a 13 point second half lead. That call was an important turning point though, can’t just shrug it off.

No, that's not how reviews work. Upon review, the officials determined that the contact was marginal; that the amount of contact was not sufficient to support the foul call, not that there was no contact made. Fouls are reviewed all the time to determine whether the level of contact, if any, meets the criteria for a personal foul. It's not a binary "contact or no contact" determination. Never has been. Flagrant foul determinations are probably the best example of officials using replay to review levels of contact.

And in this case, it's crystal clear that Mobley intended to take a dive (and did). Here are his own words:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2023/03/inside-the-most-debated-call-joel-embiids-6th-foul-reversal-in-the-cavs-loss-to-the-sixers.html

“I feel like I played it well. I was kind of waiting for it, if he gave me a bump I was probably gonna fall. He hit me straight in my chest, I fell. I felt like it was a charge. I guess they thought different. That was a big turning point in the game.”

The guy is clearly admitting that he was prepared to flop upon the first sign of minimal contact. That seems to be his idea of how to play defense, and he's mad that the snow job didn't hold. The officials, upon review, didn't buy that the level of contact met the criteria for a foul. And yes, that's likely in large part because Mobley's flop was so blatant and his acting so poor. It's almost exactly what M2 has stated repeatedly. Instead, had Mobley actually continued to play actual defense, the call maybe would have stood. But we won't know, because he flopped, which is what he was planning to do. And the officials sniffed it out. The arm shiver Mobley got, BTW, is the same move Donovan Mitchell uses constantly to create space. It's just that when Mitchell did it repeatedly during the game, no one on the Sixers squad began squealing and flapping about while flying back like they'd been struck by Thanos' full-Infinity Gauntlet version of Bruce Lee's one-inch punch.

Finally, I'm not sure what Bickerstaff is teaching his young players, but "shutting up" might be something he should discuss at his next practice. His squad has already stated publicly that they intentionally play illegal defense constantly, and now you have an open admission of flopping. If they're not careful, they may end up with the kind of reputation that doesn't bode well for them getting calls in the playoffs.

[BuckeyeRed27]

No, that's not how reviews work. Upon review, the officials determined that the contact was marginal; that the amount of contact was not sufficient to support the foul call, not that there was no contact made. Fouls are reviewed all the time to determine whether the level of contact, if any, meets the criteria for a personal foul. It's not a binary "contact or no contact" determination. Never has been. Flagrant foul determinations are probably the best example of officials using replay to review levels of contact.

And in this case, it's crystal clear that Mobley intended to take a dive (and did). Here are his own words:

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2023/03/inside-the-most-debated-call-joel-embiids-6th-foul-reversal-in-the-cavs-loss-to-the-sixers.html

“I feel like I played it well. I was kind of waiting for it, if he gave me a bump I was probably gonna fall. He hit me straight in my chest, I fell. I felt like it was a charge. I guess they thought different. That was a big turning point in the game.”

The guy is clearly admitting that he was prepared to flop upon the first sign of minimal contact. That seems to be his idea of how to play defense, and he's mad that the snow job didn't hold. The officials, upon review, didn't buy that the level of contact met the criteria for a foul. And yes, that's likely in large part because Mobley's flop was so blatant and his acting so poor. It's almost exactly what M2 has stated repeatedly. Instead, had Mobley actually continued to play actual defense, the call maybe would have stood. But we won't know, because he flopped, which is what he was planning to do. And the officials sniffed it out. The arm shiver Mobley got, BTW, is the same move Donovan Mitchell uses constantly to create space. It's just that when Mitchell did it repeatedly during the game, no one on the Sixers squad began squealing and flapping about while flying back like they'd been struck by Thanos' full-Infinity Gauntlet version of Bruce Lee's one-inch punch.

Finally, I'm not sure what Bickerstaff is teaching his young players, but "shutting up" might be something he should discuss at his next practice. His squad has already stated publicly that they intentionally play illegal defense constantly, and now you have an open admission of flopping. If they're not careful, they may end up with the kind of reputation that doesn't bode well for them getting calls in the playoffs.

Donovan Mitchell isn’t 7 feet tall and 300 pounds. When he makes contact with you no one is flying backwards.

Mobley sold the foul, no doubt, I’ve said as much. It was still a foul. What you are pointing out is just a fact of how Embiid is refereed differently. I’m not completely opposed to big guys getting some benefit of the doubt sometimes for being huge, but I really fundamentally don’t agree with what happened there. He fouled him. I like how you leave out stuff when you bold things like the part where he hit him straight in the chest, like that doesn’t matter.

It is good defense to give the officials something to think about when a guy has 5 fouls. Mobley is an elite defender.

We really don’t have to talk about this anymore. Congratulations your team got away with one.
The Cavs are also one of the best defensive teams in the league. Really don’t care what JB tells the guys as long as that is true.

[SteelSD]

Donovan Mitchell isn’t 7 feet tall and 300 pounds. When he makes contact with you no one is flying backwards.

Really?


https://youtu.be/au-9FsmUONs

Should Bickerstaff have challenged that?

[BuckeyeRed27]

Really?


https://youtu.be/au-9FsmUONs

Should Bickerstaff have challenged that?

That guy was running the same direction, hence his movement. But no, that’s a foul. Plus he missed the shot, why challenge?

But thanks for proving my point that Embiid gets calls that others don’t. M2 was pretty sure Mitchell got the same treatment.

[M2]

while flying back like they'd been struck by Thanos' full-Infinity Gauntlet version of Bruce Lee's one-inch punch.

I will honor my promise to say no more about that play, but I love this line and this calls for a One-Punch Man GIF.

https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExM2E5NjhkMDY2MGU1N2MyOWFlOWU1NTR kOGQ2ZDgxNWJjODQyMjRjNyZjdD1n/yo3TC0yeHd53G/giphy.gif

[SteelSD]

That guy was running the same direction, hence his movement. But no, that’s a foul. Plus he missed the shot, why challenge?

But thanks for proving my point that Embiid gets calls that others don’t. M2 was pretty sure Mitchell got the same treatment.

Oh, please. All that video shows is that when a guy who, at 6'1" and 215 pounds and built like a short-yardage running back, arm shivers someone, they move. The fact that his opponent didn't instantly fall to the ground like a weak-kneed teenage girl at a 1950's Elvis concert just shows that, unlike Mobley, he was actually trying to play something resembling defense.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Oh, please. All that video shows is that when a guy who, at 6'1" and 215 pounds and built like a short-yardage running back, arm shivers someone, they move. The fact that his opponent didn't instantly fall to the ground like a weak-kneed teenage girl at a 1950's Elvis concert just shows that, unlike Mobley, he was actually trying to play something resembling defense.

Are you seriously trying to argue those 2 plays are similar? I’m going to just assume you aren’t being serious in some weird attempt to win an argument I’m not even having with you.

[SteelSD]

Are you seriously trying to argue those 2 plays are similar? I’m going to just assume you aren’t being serious in some weird attempt to win an argument I’m not even having with you.

Where are you coming up with that? You claimed that when Mitchell does his arm shiver (which he does constantly), no one gets pushed out of the way. I'm telling you that's not true, especially as strong as the kid is. If he wasn't able to shove people out of the way to clear space, he wouldn't do it repeatedly. I'm not sure why you'd attempt to argue otherwise.

[Fil3232]

Y’all remember when Steel lectured us on not poking at KP because it was ruining the thread for him?

How do I opt out of this painfully hyper-specific argument?

[SteelSD]

Flying into Charlotte for a road game that felt more like a home gave given the number of Sixers fans attending, Philly created separation just before halftime and came out of the break with a vengeance; completely shutting down the Hornets to the tune of only 28 second-half points, and 33.7% shooting (14.7% from deep). In the 39-point win, the Sixers really didn't shoot well from distance themselves (31.4% from three), but rode Joel Embiid's 28-minute, 38 point, 13 board, 5 assist, 4 block effort to put the game on cruise control late in the third quarter. Philly went deep into the bench super-early. Guys like Jaden Springer, DeWayne Dedmon, and Korkmaz got 5-7 minutes in the fourth, with the starters getting solid rest going into the second half of a back-to-back tomorrow night. Harden had a rough shooting night (4-for-15, 0-6 from three), but finished with a triple-double, and Tobias Harris shook out of a recent funk, to finish with 18 points, hitting 7 of his 11 shots.

As I mentioned, Charlotte was just awful from the field, with Rozier, P.J. Washington, Kelly Oubre, and Dennis Smith Jr. combining to throw in only 15 of 57 shots (26.3%). Gordon Hayward was blanketed all night long, and ended up only getting 4 shots off in 22 minutes. Really the only other comment I have is that the Hornets' court burns my eyes. I mean, how much teal can a person handle?

That's seven in a row for Philly, and seven wins in their last eight March road games. Good to get some rest for the starters because tomorrow it's on to Indiana to play the always-game Pacers squad, and then probably the toughest stretch of opponents anyone's had this season.

[M2]

Golden State lost in Atlanta tonight to drop to 7-28 on the road. I don't know why they're inept on the road this season (one of the worst in the NBA), but they are and it's not going to stop.

[Kingspoint]

Golden State lost in Atlanta tonight to drop to 7-28 on the road. I don't know why they're inept on the road this season (one of the worst in the NBA), but they are and it's not going to stop.

When Payton returns, they'll win on the road.

[M2]

When Payton returns, they'll win on the road.

Maybe, though the guy I suspect they miss more is Wiggins.

[Kingspoint]

Maybe, though the guy I suspect they miss more is Wiggins.

Both. But, they didn't win on the road when they had Wiggins.

[M2]

Both. But, they didn't win on the road when they had Wiggins.

Fair, though they've had their starting 5 available for only 331 minutes (they're +24.3 per 100 possessions). Having all 5 together strikes me as their best potential saving throw. Side question on the Warriors, if we could rewind to right before the deadline should the Warriors have put a bet down on a guy like Vucevic? Would have cost Wiseman, Looney, and Moody.

[SteelSD]

Fair, though they've had their starting 5 available for only 331 minutes (they're +24.3 per 100 possessions). Having all 5 together strikes me as their best potential saving throw. Side question on the Warriors, if we could rewind to right before the deadline should the Warriors have put a bet down on a guy like Vucevic? Would have cost Wiseman, Looney, and Moody.

With the pace the Warriors want to play, I'm not sure if Vucevic would have chance to leave the logo area after the opening tip. I think you're right though, that a guy like him would at least bring a dimension to the offense they currently lack.

I think at least some of the blame falls on Jordan Poole, though. After appearing to be channeling his inner Steph last season, Poole has been throwing up a high volume of bricks from deep this year (33% three-point rate on 7.9 attempts/game) and his turnover rate (3.2/G) is at a career high. Lastly, they're not getting any younger. I think it's pretty crazy that they had a near-motherlode of high draft picks from 2020-21, but instead of packaging any of them for young established talent, they were used the to draft players (Wiseman, Kuminga, Moody) who have combined to be of almost no use, even when Kerr sees fit/is forced to give them minutes (which is another issue entirely).

That being said, they're probably still the Warriors until someone tells them via a playoff series win, that they're not the Warriors any more.

[Kingspoint]

My comments in parentheses.

March 18th, 2023 at 3:56pm CST by Luke Adams

Unless they turn things around quickly and drastically, the Trail Blazers will miss the playoffs and the play-in tournament for a second consecutive year since hiring Chauncey Billups as their head coach. However, a high-ranking source within the organization tells Jason Quick of The Athletic that the idea of firing Billups “hasn’t even crossed our minds.” (90% of Blazer fans who stomach his crap every day for two years now want him out of here, thus the reason the article had to be printed. Probably 70% want Simons gone as we are going into Year 9 of the 2-small-guards-who-can't-play-defense experiment.)

Billups has also received endorsements from several of Portland’s most important players, including Damian Lillard, Anfernee Simons, and Jerami Grant, according to Quick. Grant, who is eligible for free agency this summer, said that outsiders calling for Billups to be let go are “stupid,” adding that he’s “ready to run through a wall” for his coach. (But, apparently he's not ready to grab a rebound or play any Defense, so yeah, who wouldn't support a Coach who lets him get away with that AND get his numbers in a contract year instead of developing younger players in a throw-away season.)

For his part, Billups told Quick that he’s in frequent contact with Blazers general manager Joe Cronin and isn’t afraid of losing his job. “I don’t worry about that, at all,” Billups said. “We have our talks and everything, and that will remain between us, but I don’t worry about that at all.” (He definitely coaches like he has job security.)

(We could get Wembeyana and we'll be bottom-half of the lottery again.)

“… The sad part about this season is we never got to see our team play. We had Josh, GP, Justise (Winslow) … veterans we know who were really going to help you win. And early in the season, we had a lot of those guys playing, and we were kicking up some dust, playing well. But an injury here … and all the stuff that happened (trades of Hart and Payton) … it was just tough.” (All you ever get is excuses from Billups while blaming everything on his players and front office. Nobody here is judging Billups based upon the players he doesn't have, but are weighing their opinions on what he does with the players he has on a given night.)

[Kingspoint]

Fair, though they've had their starting 5 available for only 331 minutes (they're +24.3 per 100 possessions). Having all 5 together strikes me as their best potential saving throw. Side question on the Warriors, if we could rewind to right before the deadline should the Warriors have put a bet down on a guy like Vucevic? Would have cost Wiseman, Looney, and Moody.

Why deal with facts?

But, 331 minutes is actually about 25 games, as it usually takes about that many games for any group of five to put together 331 minutes.

[SteelSD]

Why deal with facts?

But, 331 minutes is actually about 25 games, as it usually takes about that many games for any group of five to put together 331 minutes.

27 games, actually.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced

Interesting that the Warriors starting five have actually played 24 more minutes together than Philly's group of Tucker/Harris/Embiid/Harden/Maxey. That being said, M2 has a point as Golden State's starters have murdered opponents to the tune of +21.9 points in those 331 minutes.

[Kingspoint]

27 games, actually.

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced

Interesting that the Warriors starting five have actually played 24 more minutes together than Philly's group of Tucker/Harris/Embiid/Harden/Maxey. That being said, M2 has a point as Golden State's starters have murdered opponents to the tune of +21.9 points in those 331 minutes.

It was just an educated guess on my part.

Which is why they need both Wiggins and Payton. Not having a real big might come back to bite them.

[SteelSD]

On the road versus Indiana tonight, the Sixers started strong- running out to a 10-point lead after the first- held serve over the next two quarters, then pulled away late while Embiid was resting on the bench. The Pacers played well enough offensively- hitting 51% of their shots and about 39% of their three-point attempts. But Philadelphia, without James Harden (rest) and P.J. Tucker (ankle) just blitzed Indy to the tune of 61% from the field and 43% from deep to cruise to a 141-121 win.

Joel Embiid finished a super-efficient 30-minute night, hitting 10 of his 15 shots for 31 points and adding 7 boards and the same number of assists. Tyrese Maxey was the first-half star for Philly with 20 points, and also ended the night with 31 points on 67% shooting and 5 (of 9) treys. Tobias Harris rounded out the 20+ point scorers for the Sixers with 24 points, going 9-of-12 from the floor while being a lot more involved in the offense with Harden out. Philly fans should give a big shout out to DeAnthony Melton. While his 14 points were appreciated, his 6 steals set up a number of easy buckets for the squad. Honestly, it's pretty hard to find any rough spots with anyone's play tonight- surprising when on the tail end of a back-to-back.

Again, the Pacers played well offensively while putting up 121 points. The entire starting lineup finished with double-digit points, led by Aaron Nesmith's 25. He, Andrew Nembhard (22 points, 9-for-16 shooting), and Jordan Nwora (13 points, 9 boards, 5 assists) were all impressive while Myles Turner had a very solid 20 points, throwing in 7 of his 12 shot attempts, most from close to the rim. I actually thought that as much as Philly switched, the Pacers should have gone more often to Turner- who often found himself with Maxey or Melton guarding him as he rolled to the rim.

Off to Philadelphia for the first of a home-at-home versus Chicago, then a big breath for the start of a road trip gauntlet of Golden State, Phoenix, and Denver.

[SteelSD]

Gutsy win by Utah tonight, beating Boston by a point without Sexton or Clarkson. That allows them to move past the Lakers into the final play-in spot, and the Celtics loss allows Philly to take over the 2nd seed in the East.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I can’t believe the Jazz got Walker Kessler as essentially a throw in with the Gobert trade.

[M2]

Why deal with facts?

But, 331 minutes is actually about 25 games, as it usually takes about that many games for any group of five to put together 331 minutes.

I literally just did. You even quoted them. That unit has a sexy +/- and hasn't played a ton of games together.

[M2]

In an update of my favorite NBA stat, Buddy Hield is now 30th all-time in 3-point FGs. In 2 or 3 games he'll catch Steve Nash and he has an fair chance of passing Dale Ellis for the 28th slot by the end of the season. Also has an outside chance of becoming only the 3rd player ever to sink 300+ 3-pointers in a single season, joining Steph Curry (four teams, he's not human) and James Harden.

[SteelSD]

In an update of my favorite NBA stat, Buddy Hield is now 30th all-time in 3-point FGs. In 2 or 3 games he'll catch Steve Nash and he has an fair chance of passing Dale Ellis for the 28th slot by the end of the season. Also has an outside chance of becoming only the 3rd player ever to sink 300+ 3-pointers in a single season, joining Steph Curry (four teams, he's not human) and James Harden.

In a scramble for the ball last night, Hield- from the floor- hoisted up a shot to try to beat the shot clock. It was nowhere near, but that was soooooo Buddy Hield.

[M2]

In a scramble for the ball last night, Hield- from the floor- hoisted up a shot to try to beat the shot clock. It was nowhere near, but that was soooooo Buddy Hield.

To be fair, he probably had a 30%+ chance of making it.

[Kingspoint]

I can’t believe the Jazz got Walker Kessler as essentially a throw in with the Gobert trade.

They demanded Kessler. Wasn't a throw-in. Jazz wouldn't do the deal without him.

- - - Updated - - -


I literally just did. You even quoted them. That unit has a sexy +/- and hasn't played a ton of games together.

I was praising you for using facts and mocking myself for not mentioning them. I know I left it a little obscure, but hoped I was clear enough. Sorry I wasn't and left you thinking the opposite.

[Kingspoint]

Gutsy win by Utah tonight, beating Boston by a point without Sexton or Clarkson. That allows them to move past the Lakers into the final play-in spot, and the Celtics loss allows Philly to take over the 2nd seed in the East.

When you have a Head Coach that learns from his mistakes, they get wins like this late in the season that gets them into a better playoff position than they were before, while exceeding expectations with the roster they are given. BOS has the same type of Head Coach, though. Ainge had to struggle who to root for having fondness for both Coaches and both teams, and probably more fondness for BOS at this point (and probably always will).

[M2]

The West is so tight, all games at this point are fairly important, but there's a few big ones tonight.

OKC beat Phoenix, not only helping their play-in chances but putting them within a game 6th place. Meanwhile, the Suns have dropped four of their last five.

New Orleans needs to beat Houston tonight if it wants a chance of scraping its way back into the play-in (going well so far, but still a quarter to play).

Portland's essentially playing for its life against the Clippers. A loss would drop them to 31-40. The Clips have a chance of moving to within 1/2 a game of the Suns.

The Lakers also desperately need a win at home against Orlando tonight. This is technically the easiest game left on their schedule (though you could argue away at Houston). Their other nine games are against teams playing for something.

[SteelSD]

Atlanta put up 83 points against San Antonio in the first half tonight. Then they lost.

[Fil3232]

The sooner ATL rids themselves of Trae Young, the better

[M2]

The sooner ATL rids themselves of Trae Young, the better

I agree with this. It feels right. Yet I question whether the crew around him is any good. Like, what would the Hawks be if they swapped out Trae for a generic starting guard?

[Fil3232]

I agree with this. It feels right. Yet I question whether the crew around him is any good. Like, what would the Hawks be if they swapped out Trae for a generic starting guard?

I’d love to find out. I suspect they’d be pretty similar, but a lot more fun to root for

[SteelSD]

I agree with this. It feels right. Yet I question whether the crew around him is any good. Like, what would the Hawks be if they swapped out Trae for a generic starting guard?

I'm trying to figure out where the Hawks would deal Young if it were a talent-for-talent swap. Towns might want out in Minnesota and could be dealt this summer, so maybe there's a target? There would need to be a lot more rearranging going on though as you're right- the quality of Young's supporting cast isn't truly high level, save for Murray. A lot of guys who do one thing well. They'd probably love to move John Collins before even thinking about trading Young, but Collins' game has regressed and that contract...ugh.

[M2]

I'm trying to figure out where the Hawks would deal Young if it were a talent-for-talent swap. Towns might want out in Minnesota and could be dealt this summer, so maybe there's a target? There would need to be a lot more rearranging going on though as you're right- the quality of Young's supporting cast isn't truly high level, save for Murray. A lot of guys who do one thing well. They'd probably love to move John Collins before even thinking about trading Young, but Collins' game has regressed and that contract...ugh.

I'd probably start with trying to offload Collins and Capella for anyone who seems functional. If they could get Buddy Hield for Collins, pounce on that. If the Bulls decide they need rim protection, then send Capella to Chicago. Yet shed the moderately expensive non-shooting bigs. Then sort out where you stand with Trae.

I think it's possible a lot of teams could talk themselves into Trae. For instance, Orlando doesn't score much, doesn't shoot 3's well (though Trae's having an off year for that too) and doesn't get a lot of assists. Maybe Trae could make them click. The Lakers also can't space the court and have an offense that can be described as blah. Plus, the LeBron window is not staying open forever. Houston needs to stop pretending Kevin Porter is a PG and get someone competent on the ball. The Pelicans have collapsed and also lack a true PG. Brooklyn could use a feature scorer. Chicago is a mess. Chris Paul is starting to show his age and Phoenix wants to capitalize on KD. Washington is groping for an identity. And Trae can be the key piece in balancing the salaries on any want-away star (good call on Towns).

[SteelSD]

Yeah, I have no idea what that was. The Sixers, who were honoring the 1982-83 NBA Championship squad, turned the clock back to 1962 on offense and put up a stinker against the Bulls. Embiid was great, as usual (37 points and 16 boards), but James Harden played maybe his worst offensive game as a Sixer, hitting only two of fourteen shots. Philly got the game to OT, but just couldn't hit a shot, even before Embiid fouled out in the second OT. Turning the ball over 19 times doesn't help matters, but as bad as the Bulls were offensively, the Sixers needed to be able to overcome that. Instead, it was a class in brick laying, with only De'Anthony Melton (19 points, 5 threes) being any help off the bench. They better get the ship righted, because they'll see the same team again in two days.

[SteelSD]

I'd probably start with trying to offload Collins and Capella for anyone who seems functional. If they could get Buddy Hield for Collins, pounce on that. If the Bulls decide they need rim protection, then send Capella to Chicago. Yet shed the moderately expensive non-shooting bigs. Then sort out where you stand with Trae.

I think it's possible a lot of teams could talk themselves into Trae. For instance, Orlando doesn't score much, doesn't shoot 3's well (though Trae's having an off year for that too) and doesn't get a lot of assists. Maybe Trae could make them click. The Lakers also can't space the court and have an offense that can be described as blah. Plus, the LeBron window is not staying open forever. Houston needs to stop pretending Kevin Porter is a PG and get someone competent on the ball. The Pelicans have collapsed and also lack a true PG. Brooklyn could use a feature scorer. Chicago is a mess. Chris Paul is starting to show his age and Phoenix wants to capitalize on KD. Washington is groping for an identity. And Trae can be the key piece in balancing the salaries on any want-away star (good call on Towns).

I agree that they need to dump guys like Collins and Capella, but I'm not sure there are any teams out there thinking that they really need those guys, especially with Collins' deal. I did think of Orlando, but are they close enough yet to start moving young guys and/or picks for a Trae Young contract? Houston? I dunno. Does Phoenix have anything left to trade? Brooklyn might not be a bad option though, good point.

[Mutaman]

Can't remember the last time I rooted for a team from Chicago, particularly the whining Bulls. Very strange experience.

[M2]

I agree that they need to dump guys like Collins and Capella, but I'm not sure there are any teams out there thinking that they really need those guys, especially with Collins' deal. I did think of Orlando, but are they close enough yet to start moving young guys and/or picks for a Trae Young contract? Houston? I dunno. Does Phoenix have anything left to trade? Brooklyn might not be a bad option though, good point.

I wonder if Charlotte would move Gordon Hayward for Collins. Quality free agents aren't going there and they make bad choices.

[SteelSD]

I wonder if Charlotte would move Gordon Hayward for Collins. Quality free agents aren't going there and they make bad choices.

That would save Atlanta some cash, but Hayward is even worse defensively than Bogdan B. That being said, Doris Burke told me that Hayward was a 2017 All Star, so he'd no doubt give Atlanta the best 50 games he can muster next season...

[M2]

Big win for the Wolves in NYC tonight. Mike Conley had a 24-4-11. Taurean Prince dropped a 35-spot. On the other side, Julius Randle scored (and this is not a typo) 57.

Oi, and Golden State just won a road, though it was against the Rockets. So if they were ever going to win a road, this was it. The Splash Brothers splashed 59. That's two better than Julius Randle.

[M2]

That would save Atlanta some cash, but Hayward is even worse defensively than Bogdan B. That being said, Doris Burke told me that Hayward was a 2017 All Star, so he'd no doubt give Atlanta the best 50 games he can muster next season...

Atlanta would have to balance the salaries (something like Jalen Johnson and a semi-warm body). Hayward's ideal role is probably as a 6th man. Might even make it 55 games if he was doing that.

[Boston Red]

Just when I had pretty much given up on the Jazz making the play in they go back to back over Boston and Sacto. The future is exciting for the franchise. Hopefully not TOO far away!

[M2]

Utah did one of these tonight against the Kings -

https://media.tenor.com/N_8p8kIvWxAAAAAC/alive-dead.gif

There was even a Kris Dunn sighting involved. He scored 18 and dished out 10 assists to secure the win for the Jazz.

[Boston Red]

Who's more upset about the result of that game: Mike Brown or Danny Ainge?

[M2]

Who's more upset about the result of that game: Mike Brown or Danny Ainge?

Danny for sure. "But we started Simone Fontecchio..."

[BuckeyeRed27]

Yeah I mean they sat Lauri, Clarkson and Sexton (he’s been hurt for a little bit), still came out like a house on fire and then rallied after the Kings came back. What a funny team.

[M2]

Yeah I mean they sat Lauri, Clarkson and Sexton (he’s been hurt for a little bit), still came out like a house on fire and then rallied after the Kings came back. What a funny team.

They kind of remind me of when the Celtics tried to tank in 2013, hired Brad Stevens as coach and only got one truly bad year out of it. Ainge keeps acquiring useful players so his teams are never horrible enough to get great lottery odds.

[Revering4Blue]

I wonder if Charlotte would move Gordon Hayward for Collins. Quality free agents aren't going there and they make bad choices.

Looking ahead, a possible frontline of Collins, Washington and Bridges, who is expected to return before the end of the season, could be interesting. And they have traditional bigs Richards and Williams with Oubre Jr. able to return to his natural SF position. In short, Hayward wouldn't be missed.

Speaking of the Hornets regularly making bad choices regarding roster construction and player development, MJ is reportedly selling his controlling shares of the franchise. That's a plus right there.

[Revering4Blue]

They kind of remind me of when the Celtics tried to tank in 2013, hired Brad Stevens as coach and only got one truly bad year out of it. Ainge keeps acquiring useful players so his teams are never horrible enough to get great lottery odds.

Good analogy.

You have to wonder where the Celts would be without the abject failure of the '13 trade by the Nets, particularly the failure to provide pick protection by Billy King. Otherwise, the high number of quality picks for the Celts wouldn't have materialized.

You can also say the same for the pre '17 draft trade with the Sixers, when the Celts would have taken Tatum anyway if they hadn't traded down. If Colangelo really wanted Fultz - and given intel at the time, I can't blame him at all - Fultz would have assuredly been there at #3 anyway. Say what you will about Sam Hinkie, but there's no way he would have traded up in that case. If anything, he would have traded down and stockpiled talent from that deep, productive draft while cycling assets.

[M2]

Speaking of the Hornets regularly making bad choices regarding roster construction and player development, MJ is reportedly selling his controlling shares of the franchise. That's a plus right there.

Could be a "save the franchise" moment if it materializes. They're going nowhere with MJ making basketball decisions.

[Revering4Blue]

Could be a "save the franchise" moment if it materializes. They're going nowhere with MJ making basketball decisions.

Definitely.

But playing Devil's Advocate - Not that I agree with it - I can somewhat understand Jordan's MO regarding roster construction (not an all an excuse for their poor player developmental record, particularly MKG). His first priority is not to build a team that can someday realistically contend for the championship: it's about simply qualifying for the playoffs (or play-in tournament) while utilizing mostly recognizable former CBB players, whether or not they played in the ACC to maintain fan interest/attendance.

In other words, he's just fine with treadmilling because he fears a true rebuilds (even though this what the fanbase wants) will harm attendance. He thinks too short-term. It's the same method of idiocy that caused him to sign Al Jefferson in the Summer of '13, when the focus should still have been on additional higher draft picks to supplement Kemba Walker with talent.

Detroit under Tom Gores' ownership operated much the same way until the Blake Griffin trade hamstrung the franchise ( supposedly, Stan Van Gundy opposed the move, but was mere foot soldier) and he then hired Troy Weaver to run the show.

[M2]

Definitely.

But playing Devil's Advocate - Not that I agree with it - I can somewhat understand Jordan's MO regarding roster construction (not an all an excuse for their poor player developmental record, particularly MKG). His first priority is not to build a team that can someday realistically contend for the championship: it's about simply qualifying for the playoffs (or play-in tournament) while utilizing mostly recognizable former CBB players, whether or not they played in the ACC to maintain fan interest/attendance.

In other words, he's just fine with treadmilling because he fears a true rebuilds (even though this what the fanbase wants) will harm attendance. He thinks too short-term. It's the same method of idiocy that caused him to sign Al Jefferson in the Summer of '13, when the focus should still have been on additional higher draft picks to supplement Kemba Walker with talent.

Detroit under Tom Gores' ownership operated much the same way until the Blake Griffin trade hamstrung the franchise ( supposedly, Stan Van Gundy opposed the move, but was mere foot soldier) and he then hired Troy Weaver to run the show.

I don't think that's a bad plan if they're consistently in the playoffs, but it's now 2 times in 13 years. It all goes back to talent evaluation. If you have that, then your plan is going to work. Draft, free agency, trades - they always seem to get it wrong.

[Revering4Blue]

I don't think that's a bad plan if they're consistently in the playoffs, but it's now 2 times in 13 years. It all goes back to talent evaluation. If you have that, then your plan is going to work. Draft, free agency, trades - they always seem to get it wrong.

Consistently making the playoffs is one thing. Consistently qualifying as a 6th or higher seed, where your odds of breaking through and advancing in the playoffs increase exponentially, is another matter. And unless you are a mega free agency destination, 9 times out of 10 that involves assembling a roster with multiple top 5 picks and or parlaying such picks into solid cornerstone veterans.

The Pacers are the only franchise I can think of that have rather consistently won while assembling Championship contenders with only one top 5 pick (Rik Smits) or former top 8 pick. In fact, they assembled three separate contending corps that way.

But you have to admit they were very fortunate that 12 teams inexplicably passed on Reggie Miller; the Blazers were foolish enough to part with Jermaine O’Neal (sorry to bring that up, Kingspoint); the Bulls essentially handed them both Brad Miller and Ron Artest before he went postal and that Utah selected Hayward instead of Paul George.

The Wizards also belong in this stuck in treadmill purgatory, if that, conversation. It’s simply criminal that they failed to build a legitimate contender around two future hall-of-famers in Wall and Beal in their primes. Then again, they recently flat-out fleeced the Lakers in the Westbrook deal and grabbed Porzingis for pennies-on the dollar, so perhaps times are a changin’ in the Nation’s Capital.

Lastly, back to the Hornets, for as poor as this incarnation of this franchise has been overall with talent evaluation, let’s remember they have arguably been worse with player development. Granted, they have often reached for recognizable CBB players, but you have to figure any competent organization would have developed Cody Zeller into another Troy Murphy or Brad Miller; MKG into at least another Andre Iguodala and Malik Monk into, at the minimum, a poor man’s version of this generation’s Lloyd Free - the San Diego Clippers version.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[M2]

Consistently making the playoffs is one thing. Consistently qualifying as a 6th or higher seed, where your odds of breaking through and advancing in the playoffs increase exponentially, is another matter. And unless you are a mega free agency destination, 9 times out of 10 that involves assembling a roster with multiple top 5 picks and or parlaying such picks into solid cornerstone veterans.

The Pacers are the only franchise I can think of that have rather consistently won while assembling Championship contenders with only one top 5 pick (Rik Smits) or former top 8 pick. In fact, they assembled three separate contending corps that way.

But you have to admit they were very fortunate that 12 teams inexplicably passed on Reggie Miller; the Blazers were foolish enough to part with Jermaine O’Neal (sorry to bring that up, Kingspoint); the Bulls essentially handed them both Brad Miller and Ron Artest before he went postal and that Utah selected Hayward instead of Paul George.

The Wizards also belong in this stuck in treadmill purgatory, if that, conversation. It’s simply criminal that they failed to build a legitimate contender around two future hall-of-famers in Wall and Beal in their primes. Then again, they recently flat-out fleeced the Lakers in the Westbrook deal and grabbed Porzingis for pennies-on the dollar, so perhaps times are a changin’ in the Nation’s Capital.

Lastly, back to the Hornets, for as poor as this incarnation of this franchise has been overall with talent evaluation, let’s remember they have arguably been worse with player development. Granted, they have often reached for recognizable CBB players, but you have to figure any competent organization would have developed Cody Zeller into another Troy Murphy or Brad Miller; MKG into at least another Andre Iguodala and Malik Monk into, at the minimum, a poor man’s version of this generation’s Lloyd Free - the San Diego Clippers version.

Denver's on it's 5th straight top 6 without a top 5 pick (Gordon was a #4 pick, but not for the Nuggets who got him cheap after he spun his wheels in Orlando). Golden State didn't have any top 5 picks. Phoenix has only hit on one top 5 pick (Ayton). J-Valls was the only top 5 pick for the Raptors when they spent 7 straight seasons near the top of the East, and he got dealt during their title-wining season (for win connoisseur Marc Gasol). The only top 5 pick Milwaukee got turned out to be Jabari Parker. Miami hasn't seen a top 5 pick since Michael Beasley. OKC is on the up before it's one top-5 pick has arrived.

Honestly, I think the deep tank is a real bad way to build a team. Partially because it's hard to stop being a wreck once you've purposefully created a wreck. Memphis, Boston and Cleveland have done well in the top 5, but they seem to find players via every other avenue too.

I agree the Hornets are miserable at development as well, though I suspect Zeller was a dinosaur that was getting killed by the pace-and-space comet. It was fatal to Zellers and all but one Plumlee. I don't know about MKG. He was such a stiff by the time I started paying attention that I can't envision it. Yet no one seems to progress on that team. LaMelo and P.J. Washington are the latest examples. They haven't gotten one ounce better, arguably they've gotten worse.

[M2]

I was hoping for a tight contest with the Celtics at the Kings. Especially wanted to see the crowd get amped up. Didn't happen because the Celtics went megaton. Their ball movement was superslick.

[Revering4Blue]

Denver's on it's 5th straight top 6 without a top 5 pick (Gordon was a #4 pick, but not for the Nuggets who got him cheap after he spun his wheels in Orlando). Golden State didn't have any top 5 picks. Phoenix has only hit on one top 5 pick (Ayton). J-Valls was the only top 5 pick for the Raptors when they spent 7 straight seasons near the top of the East, and he got dealt during their title-wining season (for win connoisseur Marc Gasol). The only top 5 pick Milwaukee got turned out to be Jabari Parker. Miami hasn't seen a top 5 pick since Michael Beasley. OKC is on the up before it's one top-5 pick has arrived.
Fair points,

But remember, I also qualified the argument with Top 8 picks, whether or not the contending team originally drafted them, and that also applies to Top 5 picks. But, for the sake of clarity, Top 10 picks or pre teen picks - the type you don't have access to draft-wise (not trading for them) by treadmilling - provide more context and better support my argument of building a realistic contender when you are not a mega free agent magnet, read: Miami or LA, to name a few. Examples: Golden State absolutely tanked to form their original core based around Curry; Likewise, OKC with Durant, Harden and Westbrook. Brook Lopez is a former Top 10 pick, and the Bucks aren't winning, much less contending, for a championship without him.

Sure, you can argue it's possible to construct a contending core without at least one former Top 10 pick on your roster and/or utilizing such picks to add a superstar (See Toronto utilizing Derozen to acquire Kawhi - and I will fully admit that I was dead wrong utilizing Top 5 picks originally to prove my point - but it's highly, highly unlikely.

Given that, it's still amazing to me that Indiana assembled three separate contending corps with only one top 5 pick (Smits) and one Top 10 (George), but they are definitely the exception, not the rule.


Honestly, I think the deep tank is a real bad way to build a team. Partially because it's hard to stop being a wreck once you've purposefully created a wreck. Memphis, Boston and Cleveland have done well in the top 5, but they seem to find players via every other avenue too.

That depends on the circumstance.

For the circa '13 76ers to soldier on in a futile attempt to construct a contending core around Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner and Thad Young while owing multiple 1st round picks would have amounted to Hornets' level buffoonery. And Embiid is an example as to why you NEVER select inferior players simply because they are available right away.

I think we can both agree that the cycling of assets stage is also critical and can delay the process of assembling a true contending core if bungled. See the 76ers post Hinkie until Morey assumed control.


I agree the Hornets are miserable at development as well, though I suspect Zeller was a dinosaur that was getting killed by the pace-and-space comet. It was fatal to Zellers and all but one Plumlee. I don't know about MKG. He was such a stiff by the time I started paying attention that I can't envision it. Yet no one seems to progress on that team. LaMelo and P.J. Washington are the latest examples. They haven't gotten one ounce better, arguably they've gotten worse.
Agree on LaMelo and Washington.

Kind of a fun sup-topic, but I have to imagine the '12 and '13 drafts would have been conducted differently by several teams, including possibly the Hornets, were the pace-and-space era underway by then. Nevertheless, both Zeller and MKG, particularly Zeller, were both selected at least 5 spots higher than expected as recognizable, marketable College players. The selection of MKG, while it surprised the heck out of me at the time, actually made some sense if the choices were not Beal or Drummond, as his ceiling was considerably higher then that of Harrison Barnes.

The selection of Zeller was another animal altogether, and he was a much better athlete than given credit for - see video from his days at IU - which was then compounded by the signing of Al Jefferson, whose talents overlapped Zellers and MKG instead of complimenting them, in an attempt to chase the 7th and 8th spot. They were successful doing that in '15, but at what cost? Anyway, I've mentioned this before but Zeller, while underwhelming for a number 5 pick, actually outperformed most of his draft class. But that's mostly a sad commentary on a notoriously weak class in which some of the best players (Robert Covington, for example) were not drafted at all.

As a result, they failed to surround Kemba Walker with talent when they had ample opportunities to do so.

[M2]

That depends on the circumstance.

For the circa '13 76ers to soldier on in a futile attempt to construct a contending core around Jrue Holiday, Evan Turner and Thad Young while owing multiple 1st round picks would have amounted to Hornets' level buffoonery. And Embiid is an example as to why you NEVER select inferior players simply because they are available right away.

I think we can both agree that the cycling of assets stage is also critical and can delay the process of assembling a true contending core if bungled. See the 76ers post Hinkie until Morey assumed control.

I take a different view of the Process Sixers. Hinkie's kind of my negative example as I don't think he ever had a concept for how his team would emerge from perpetual ineptitude other than it magically would and I'm not sure he had much of an eye for talent. He landed Simmons and Embiid, but they were consensus picks. Yet the Process also selected Noel, Okafor and (not Hinkie's pick) Fultz. FWIW, I think that's probably indicative of a typical journey through the upper lottery. It was a transition era as the Warriors were leading the charge on a wholesale change in how the game is played and a lot of kids weren't right for this new era. Yet Hinkie was late on picking up on that, so late that he got canned before he could show any real recognition of it.

There were plenty of missteps after him, but they've been a 50+ win for six years now and that's not nothing. They need to get past the conference semis, but they're almost a mortal lock bet to get to the conference semis for the 5th time in those six seasons. And but for a crazy bounce in 2019, it might have been them instead of the Raptors lifting the trophy. Even if they never get to the top of the mountain, the era of an ever-changing cast around Embiid has been pretty fruitful. Even though it's been maximally chaotic, the Sixers somewhat successfully navigated their way into this new era. Surviving the wholesale collapse of Ben Simmons is pretty impressive. That would have destroyed a lot of teams.

I also think those 2012 and 2013 drafts you were talking about with Charlotte might have been the peak of getting caught in the era switch. The washout rate from those drafts was massive. Now there's wave after wave of killer kids who can play a complete game. Gen Z has got it going on. That colors my thinking on how long anyone should spend in the basement. It should shorten the cycle for rebuilding if you're also leveraging trades and free agency properly. I'm think a maximum of two years in the upper lottery might be the ideal.

Memphis seems to have gotten it right. They only had one truly miserable season, combined with ping pong luck in 2019 they were able to grab Ja and JJJ and they only spent three years out of the playoffs. Still work to do to become a title contender (though it's pretty open for who'll win the West this year). Cleveland also only took a three-year dive (though a deeper one and they botched the play-in last season). Garland and Mobley, plus a great move for Jarret Allen and a big trade for Spida, and they have what should be the core of a consistent contender. I think those are the best recent examples of teams getting it right in the lottery (along with the Celtics who got their picks by fleecing the Nets).

[Revering4Blue]

I take a different view of the Process Sixers. Hinkie's kind of my negative example as I don't think he ever had a concept for how his team would emerge from perpetual ineptitude other than it magically would and I'm not sure he had much of an eye for talent. He landed Simmons and Embiid, but they were consensus picks. Yet the Process also selected Noel, Okafor and (not Hinkie's pick) Fultz. FWIW, I think that's probably indicative of a typical journey through the upper lottery. It was a transition era as the Warriors were leading the charge on a wholesale change in how the game is played and a lot of kids weren't right for this new era. Yet Hinkie was late on picking up on that, so late that he got canned before he could show any real recognition of it.

Au contraire.

Given the NBA landscape at the time, Noel, if healthy, would have been off the board by the 2nd overall '13 pick. And his PER was 20.8 when he dealt to the Mavs in February of '17. It wasn't Hinkie's fault that his immediate successor received such a subpar return for him.

And, per reports, the selection of Okafor was more or less forced upon Hinkie by ownership, as they feared the selection of Porzingis (Hinkie's choice, as he had scouted him heavily) was too risky to sell to fans. Remember, Porzingis was no safe bet to come over and play in the NBA no matter who selected him. They (ownership) felt the need to sell a name player (Okafor) who could suit up right away to fans. They were already waiting for Embiid and Saric to debut, which they did one year later after previously waiting one season for Noel to be healthy and active.

Also, it was reported that some team presented an offer for Okafor which included at least one first round pick during the '16 trading deadline and ownership blocked a possible trade - again, fearing fans would further revolt due to constant roster turnover. Spoiler: They wouldn't have, as Philly fans are some of the most knowledgeable out there, and a great many were totally behind this get off the treadmill process. And again, Hinkie's successor received a poor return for Okafor because he inexplicably kept him too long.

Lastly, while not transcendent talents, Hinkie also landed Jeremi Grant, Richaun Holmes, Robert Covington, TJ McConnell, and the rights to Vasilije Micić - the highly sought after Serbian Guard who has chosen to forgo the NBA. Subsequent trades of Grant and Covington (though not by himself) - two of the few Colangelo and/or Brand trades that worked out - eventually produced Maxey (Thank you, Daryl Morey) and Tobias Harris, key members of the core today.

So, the main reason the process (no pun intended) of reaching the playoffs following the teardown took so long (relative to Memphis and others that you cited as examples) had more to do with multiple draftees being unavailable to suit up right away as noted above, and basically nothing to do with Hinkie's perceived failure to spot talent.

And it's still hard to believe Hinkie couldn't/wouldn't have done a better job of cycling assets in his sleep than his two immediate successors pre-Morey.


There were plenty of missteps after him, but they've been a 50+ win for six years now and that's not nothing. They need to get past the conference semis, but they're almost a mortal lock bet to get to the conference semis for the 5th time in those six seasons. And but for a crazy bounce in 2019, it might have been them instead of the Raptors lifting the trophy. Even if they never get to the top of the mountain, the era of an ever-changing cast around Embiid has been pretty fruitful. Even though it's been maximally chaotic, the Sixers somewhat successfully navigated their way into this new era. Surviving the wholesale collapse of Ben Simmons is pretty impressive. That would have destroyed a lot of teams.

While true, they still wouldn't be where they are today had Hinkie not stockpiled a treasure trove of assets, mainly picks, both firsts and seconds, which directly or indirectly produced the core.

That's the lesson to be learned here. The Hornets, for example, would have no doubt been better off conducting a full rebuild post '13 than essentially wasting Kemba Walker's prime by continuously surrounding him with stiffs, while chasing the 7th or 8th playoffs spots, which essentially mean death in today's best of seven first round environment.

[Revering4Blue]

Karl-Anthony Towns (right calf strain) will play in Wednesday's game against the Hawks barring any setbacks in pregame, according to Shams Charania of The Athletic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZzEzDkeHzI

[M2]

While true, they still wouldn't be where they are today had Hinkie not stockpiled a treasure trove of assets, mainly picks, both firsts and seconds, which directly or indirectly produced the core.

It's all a continuum that's landed them where they are. We'll never know what Hinkie would have done had he stuck around because he got canned and it looks like no one's ever going to hire him again. I do question his initial strategy. Seems to me that Jrue Holiday, Andre Iguodala, Nikola Vucevic, Thaddeus Young and Lou Williams is the core of a pretty good team if we go back to 2012 (with the smart move being a trade of Evan Turner while his value was high). That's with perfect future knowledge, but that was not an expensive core and they definitely could have added a high scoring max guy. The only truly essential player Hinkie acquired was Embiid. I'd be a lot less skeptical about him if he had found a great young player via trade or shown a keen eye in the MLE market.

Counterpoint on the Noel pick: 2013 was a terrible draft, so how about don't trade Jrue Holiday for guy in a terrible draft? I can't help but think everything the Sixers have done for the past decade would have been better with Jrue Holiday on the team. I know, I'm a shameless Holiday stan, but he's really good at basketball. Obviously there's sliding doors there and maybe they don't get Embiid, but I'm just saying if you're sitting there in 2013 and choosing between Holiday and a pick in that draft, the right choice is you keep Holiday and build a culture around him. And nothing Hinkie did indicates to me he was operating at that level of team building. Seems like he was all in for the gold rush and less interested in building the town.

[Revering4Blue]

It's all a continuum that's landed them where they are. We'll never know what Hinkie would have done had he stuck around because he got canned and it looks like no one's ever going to hire him again. I do question his initial strategy. Seems to me that Jrue Holiday, Andre Iguodala, Nikola Vucevic, Thaddeus Young and Lou Williams is the core of a pretty good team if we go back to 2012 (with the smart more being a trade of Evan Turner while his value was high). That's with perfect future knowledge, but that was not an expensive core and they definitely could have added a high scoring max guy. The only truly essential player Hinkie acquired was Embiid. I'd be a lot less skeptical about him if he had found a great young player via trade or shown a keen eye in the MLE market.

Counterpoint on the Noel pick: 2013 was a terrible draft, so how about don't trade Jrue Holiday for guy in a terrible draft? I can't help but think everything the Sixers have done for the past decade would have been better with Jrue Holiday on the team. I know, I'm a shameless Holiday stan, but he's really good at basketball. Obviously there's sliding doors there and maybe they don't get Embiid, but I'm just saying if you're sitting there in 2013 and choosing between Holiday and a pick in that draft, the right choice is you keep Holiday and build a culture around him. And nothing Hinkie did indicates to me he was operating at that level of team building. Seems like he was all in for the gold rush and less interested in building the town.

Fair point in Holiday - I’m a big fan of his as well - but Hinkie also recouped lost additional 1st round picks in that deal, and they owed multiple 1sts moving forward due to previous administration’s trades.

Williams and Iquodala were gone before Hinkie assumed control. That’s important for contextual purposes. In fact, as an advisor, Hinkie strongly opposed the terrible deal which sent away Vucevic and Iquodala for essentially a broken-down Andrew Bynum in 2012.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[SteelSD]

It's all a continuum that's landed them where they are. We'll never know what Hinkie would have done had he stuck around because he got canned and it looks like no one's ever going to hire him again. I do question his initial strategy. Seems to me that Jrue Holiday, Andre Iguodala, Nikola Vucevic, Thaddeus Young and Lou Williams is the core of a pretty good team if we go back to 2012 (with the smart more being a trade of Evan Turner while his value was high). That's with perfect future knowledge, but that was not an expensive core and they definitely could have added a high scoring max guy. The only truly essential player Hinkie acquired was Embiid. I'd be a lot less skeptical about him if he had found a great young player via trade or shown a keen eye in the MLE market.

Counterpoint on the Noel pick: 2013 was a terrible draft, so how about don't trade Jrue Holiday for guy in a terrible draft? I can't help but think everything the Sixers have done for the past decade would have been better with Jrue Holiday on the team. I know, I'm a shameless Holiday stan, but he's really good at basketball. Obviously there's sliding doors there and maybe they don't get Embiid, but I'm just saying if you're sitting there in 2013 and choosing between Holiday and a pick in that draft, the right choice is you keep Holiday and build a culture around him. And nothing Hinkie did indicates to me he was operating at that level of team building. Seems like he was all in for the gold rush and less interested in building the town.

While true that we'll never know how a more extended tenure would have worked out, we know the results of the Jerry and Brian Colangelo run. And if Hinke won't work in the NBA again, that's his call. He has no interest. You can say, I guess, that the only "essential" player Hinke acquired was Joel Embiid, but I think that's a bit of a stretch because Ben Simmons was really, really good before he lost whatever "it" is. Hinke's method was to tank and churn. Long-term strategy. The problem was that the "churn" part was interrupted mid-cycle- replaced by the ol' boys network, who fumbled and bumbled away asset value.

Igoudala was gone before Hinke arrived. So was Lou Williams. So was Vucevic. Jrue Holiday was not the established guy you see today. I think you're remembering both he and Thad Young as being much better players they were at the time they were dealt. The Sixers were garbage during Holiday's tenure, even with some of the guys you mentioned. That's not a young player's fault, but Jrue Holiday with zero supporting cast is just a garbage with a different smell. They moved Holiday for Nerlens Noel and what became Dario Saric. The Colangelos subsequently nerfed whatever value Noel had as an asset along with Okafor. Then Brett Brown screwed the pooch on the pick Hinke got for Michael Carter-Williams (Mikal Bridges).

Sam Hinke didn't fail. He just didn't get to complete the work.

[M2]

Fair point in Holiday - I’m a big fan of his as well - but Vucevic, Williams and Iquodala were gone before Hinkie assumed control. That’s important for contextual purposes. In fact, as an advisor, Hinkie strongly opposed the terrible deal which sent away Vucevic and Iquodala for essentially a broken-down Andrew Bynum in 2012.

Good correction. I thought he lit the fuse on that bomb. That trade and letting Lou-Will walk for a pay cut were criminal acts. So, immensely steeper mountain to climb, though I still say Jrue was the right sherpa for the job.

[KoryMac5]

GS/Dallas on ESPN is another enjoyable game cept for Van Gundy who has gotten worse over the years in regards to his calling of games...

Doncic's thigh looks about as good as it is going to get at this point.

[SteelSD]

The Sixers, looking for some payback tonight in Chicago, jumped out to a 23 to 1 (not a typo) first quarter lead and it was really all downhill for the Bulls from there. Philly, with a 28-point lead at halftime while missing James Harden (ankle), sat Joel Embiid for the entire second half and still cruised to a 116-91 win for their 7th consecutive road victory. De'Anthony Melton banked 25 points and 3 steals to lead Philly, with both Maxey and Harris pushing to 20 or more each. The Sixers starters posted +/- numbers between +25 (Embiid in 16 minutes) to an absurd +40 for Harris in 34 minutes on the court. Before being pulled due to the lopsided score and a bit of calf tightness, Embiid was well on his way to a triple-double with 12 points, 7 boards, and 7 assists in the first half.

For the Bulls, the bench was a bright spot, with four players in double-digits- led by Coby White's team-high 19 points. DeMar Derozan had a miserable game, hitting none of his 7 attempts and finishing with just four points on free throws before leaving with an injury.

Next up- a brutal road back-to-back against Golden State on Friday, then a quick trip to Phoenix on Saturday night, then on to Denver for a Monday night matchup. Yikes.

[M2]

KAT came back for Minnesota tonight, scoring 22 in 26 minutes with a +13 in a 1-point home win over the Hawks. Impressive because they don't have Ant.

Luka Doncic also returned tonight with a 30-7-17 against the Warriors, but the Dubs got a 2-point behind 22 pts on 9-11 shooting from Jonathan Kuminga. That's also Golden State's second consecutive road win.

And Ja Morant came back with 17 points in 24 minutes in a 5-point home victory over the Rockets (it feels like Houston plays every night).

[Kingspoint]

Karl-Anthony Towns (right calf strain) will play in Wednesday's game against the Hawks barring any setbacks in pregame, according to Shams Charania of The Athletic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZzEzDkeHzI

I feel good for KAT. Nice job of re-centering yourself young man.

[Kingspoint]

Not surprising the Blazers played their best game of the season tonight with both Simons and Grant out with injuries. Those two are horrific Defenders. Sharpe got his first Start ever next to Dame, and responded with career-highs across the board, 9 REB, 24 PTS, 4 ST, 4-7 "3"'s, very good Defense and a +28 in 40 minutes. He passed well (for him), and kept the ball moving, not forcing shots (unlike Ant, who is always forcing shots and never keeps the ball flowing, never rebounds, never plays Defense, and never has a good +/- when he's on the floor no matter how many points he scores because he makes those around him worse Offensively and is horrible Defensively).

Trendon Watford Started for Grant and played a Superior game, improving Defensively tonight on some small improvements he's been making in that area. He came into the game far superior Defensively to Grant, but tonight, he looked league-average Defensively, while playing his normal above-average Offensive Game. The ball flows so well with him on the floor, and especially well with him and Nurk and Sharpe and Dame together. He rebounded well with 9, something Grant never does. He assisted a lot of baskets, something Watford always does, with 5 tonight, something Grant never does, and he put up the same number of points that Grant can put up in the low-20's tonight, but never any of it forced, where Grant is always forcing it which leads to turnovers the other way through horrible shot attempts against three in the paint. Watford added a Steal and two Blocks in 35 minutes. The best thing that could happen for Portland this Summer is for Grant to decide to sign somewhere else AND that POR is smart enough to trade ANT for a Starting "3", let Sharpe take over the Starting "2" and Watford take over the Starting "4", and for them to find a new Head Coach. Unfortunately, none of that is going to happen, so we'll be back in the lottery again next season and blow the opportunities to develop Sharpe and Watford to their full capabilities here in Portland.

Dame didn't have to force anything tonight because of the good play of everyone else, and put up a very quiet 30/7/12, a +18 w/ only 2 Turnovers. The entire team only had 9, only 1 for both Sharpe and Watford and none for Nurk, who has found his inside game the last two games after struggling coming back from his thigh injury and 14 missed games and 6-week absence. Nurk had 20 on 12 shots, a +17, while playing his normal excellent Defense around the rim, but the difference was having others around him who will also grab a rebound, play Defense, and take advantage of Nurk's excellent ball movement on the Offensive end with the two Can't's not available. Nurk had only 4 Assists, but because of him, Watford and Dame, the team probably had 40 hockey Assists. They looked like the smooth Offense that Utah has displayed for much of this season.

Doing all of this in Utah made it all more impressive. An impossible place to win, especially for a young team, there were great contributions from Kevin Knox (10pt/5rb/1to/+7/25min), Cam Reddish (11pt/1S/1B,21min), Matisse Thybulle (28min of solid defense), and Ryan Arcidiacono (+5 in 20min w/ 0 TO's). Markanen put up 40pts, but he was a -16 in his 33 minutes because the Blazers played so well on both ends of the floor team-wise. They were constantly in the passing lanes deflecting passes and getting steals, they rebounded well limiting the Jazz on the Offensive Boards, they blocked shots, and all of this Defense led the Blazers to running on every possession, and shots are always of a higher percentage in transition. Grant and Simons weren't there to not have the Defense happen and also weren't there to run a poor Offense, and run a poor Offense on the break, too, as both of them are very bad at it. POR had 18 fast-break points.

For one night, I could dream that POR has a future that's bright, but the reality is just not there because the only reason this happened was because the decision to remove the two Can't's and insert Sharpe and Watford into the Starting lineups were because POR's season is over, they quit trying to win (Starting Sharpe over Reddish next to Dame, giving Watford and Sharpe a ton of minutes, and giving Kevin Knox a ton of minutes), thus minutes' distribution matched a team that was trying to tank and develop their younger players.

Like watching the REDS this Spring, there's reason to watch if the right players are getting the most playing time, but the reality is that the Ownership doesn't care about winning and nothing will change until Ownership changes.

Jazz had been playing very well, winning 4 of 5 w/ wins over SAC and BOS, and they played well again tonight. Blazers just played much better with a lineup that had never been used this season before thanks to injuries to the two Can't's, everyone else healthy (but Winslow. and five hours later I just noticed that Little wasn't available due to concussion protocol, someone who struggles with Offensive flow and Defensive assignments, but when Little's energy level is high, he's a good contributor, and he shoots the "3" well, but not aggressively enough) and Sharpe and Watford finally getting the Starts at the positions they should have been playing all season long, positions they very rarely spent time at this season.

The biggest take tonight was that the Basketball Team IQ level was leaps and bounds better than it's been all season on both ends of the flow with Sharpe, Watford, Knox and Arci taking minutes from Grant, Simons and Little. Almost every night the Blazers have poor basketball IQ, but tonight it was A+ on both ends of the floor. We actually had balance for the first time all season. Even Chauncey couldn't screw that up because the floor IQ was elite for most of the night (though the lineups that had Arci/Knox/Thybulle/Eubanks/Reddish did let Utah get back into the game during both halves).

[Kingspoint]

If you haven't seen the nasty dunk in the Pacers' game tonight, go check it out. He got a "T" for posterizing his opponent. Definitely top-five on the season for nastiness.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Cavs go on a 12-2 run in the last 2 minutes capped by Mitchell missing a game tying FT, a scramble for the rebound and a kick out to Issac Okoro who drained a 3 to win with under 1 second for the win. Insane.

[M2]

Cavs go on a 12-2 run in the last 2 minutes capped by Mitchell missing a game tying FT, a scramble for the rebound and a kick out to Issac Okoro who drained a 3 win under 1 second for the win. Insane.

That was nuts. Crushing loss for the Nets, but this has got to be the 10th time this season Cleveland has put in a furious finish. Good on them.

[BuckeyeRed27]

That was nuts. Crushing loss for the Nets, but this has got to be the 10th time this season Cleveland has put in a furious finish. Good on them.

Yeah they’ve had a few for sure. Couple dumb losses down the stretch too, but that’s basketball.

Tough Nets loss, particularly with the Knicks losing in Orlando.

[Kingspoint]

Yeah they’ve had a few for sure. Couple dumb losses down the stretch too, but that’s basketball.

Tough Nets loss, particularly with the Knicks losing in Orlando.

Butler and MIA are going to pass them like they just went past the NETS.

[M2]

Butler and MIA are going to pass them like they just went past the NETS.

Butler is having one hell of a season. The 5-7 slots in the East are completely fluid at the moment and they all have relatively easy schedules. Could be a wild finish.

And just to plant this seed, once Tyler Herro's raise kicks in for next season, him + Duncan Robinson become an exact price match for Dame. Miami also has a full complement of 1st round picks to trade. I'm not say it's going to happen, but I would be mildly shocked if the Heat didn't make that offer.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Knicks only have 6 left and 1 is against Miami on Wednesday. That looks like it’s basically a seeding game.

[SteelSD]

Shorthanded, the Sixers couldn't make a shot or get a stop down the stretch in falling to the Warriors tonight. Wasted a huge 46-point effort from Embiid. Jordan Poole finally remembered that he could shoot, so that stunk, but it's a make or miss league and the Sixers just didn't do enough of facilitating either outcome in the fourth quarter.

[SteelSD]

The bench. Again. Ugh. Niang -30 (and counting) in 22 minutes. That game was lost in the first three minutes of the fourth quarter. Road back-to-backs are tough, but when the bench gets outscored by a million again, that's probably a design problem.

[Mutaman]

Road back-to-backs are tough, .

Particularly when the second one is in high altitude

[M2]

Just when you think you know what's going on, the Nets win in Miami and the Pelicans win at the Clippers.

[SteelSD]

Particularly when the second one is in high altitude

Yeah, that's Monday for Philly. Even if Harden is back, I'm not liking their chances given that it's the tail end of the road trip and the bench seems to have forgotten how to play basketball.

[Kingspoint]

Blazers mistakenly thought that benching Little, Grant and Simons would result in an easy loss in Utah. All it showed was there lack of understanding of how negatively impactful those three poor basketball I.Q's are when they are playing and that their replacements of Ryan Arci, Watford and Knox were much better players when combined with Nurk and Dame. So, the next game they let Little play and sat Dame and Nurk. They got their results with a blowout loss at home to CHI. They are now ready to lose every remaining game to try to let ORL (one fewer win that POR) catch them in the standings, and at least finish tied for 5th or get 5th all by themselves.

[M2]

Blazers mistakenly thought that benching Little, Grant and Simons would result in an easy loss in Utah. All it showed was there lack of understanding of how negatively impactful those three poor basketball I.Q's are when they are playing and that their replacements of Ryan Arci, Watford and Knox were much better players when combined with Nurk and Dame. So, the next game they let Little play and sat Dame and Nurk. They got their results with a blowout loss at home to CHI. They are now ready to lose every remaining game to try to let ORL (one fewer win that POR) catch them in the standings, and at least finish tied for 5th or get 5th all by themselves.

Are you saying Portland's not a good team and that trading Josh Hart left the team without enough quality players? One of these days you're going to recognize Nurkic is part of the problem. Here's my questions:

How do you sort out Grant?
Do you keep Reddish or Knox for anything other than nominal money?
If Portland admits to itself it's in a rebuild (and I would list an inability to be honest with themselves as their chief failing), is it better to have Dame as a local icon who spends his best remaining years on a team that's probably headed nowhere or to trade him to aid the rebuild around Sharpe and whoever is coming in this draft?

[KoryMac5]

Never seen Luka look like this, basically going through the motions and not having fun. Cuban may need to give him some time off to get his mind right. Speculation he is dealing with personal issues outside of basketball.

Regardless of the outcome Mavs will look very different next season.

[SteelSD]

Never seen Luka look like this, basically going through the motions and not having fun. Cuban may need to give him some time off to get his mind right. Speculation he is dealing with personal issues outside of basketball.

Regardless of the outcome Mavs will look very different next season.

He has 21 points and 8 boards at halftime today and seems to be the only guy on the Mavs who can consistently put the ball through the hoop. If he's going through the motions, it would seem that they're pretty good motions.

[Fil3232]

Luka’s usage rates don’t make basketball fun for anybody, I’d imagine

[M2]

Never seen Luka look like this, basically going through the motions and not having fun. Cuban may need to give him some time off to get his mind right. Speculation he is dealing with personal issues outside of basketball.

Regardless of the outcome Mavs will look very different next season.

He's also dealing with a terrible team around him. The Kyrie move is turning out like you'd expect a Kyrie move to turn out. The front office has spent a lot of money on a whole lot of nothing. Can they get in on KAT? Hardaway and Bertans (only $5M guaranteed for 2024-25, so he's kind of like an expiring) match on price and Dallas could put their 2025 and 2027 1st round picks on the table. I don't know if that gets it done, but they need a a star who meshes with Luka. They've got about $26M under the cap if they let their FAs walk ($31M if that includes Reggie Bullock). There's not much to buy on the open market. Josh Hart is the only one I look at and think "he'd help." I like Hardy and Christopher, but those are probably their two best assets for acquiring vets who can help. Gonna be some tough choices.

[Revering4Blue]

If you’re scoring at home, after the dust had settled, the Mavericks had traded Porzingis and Finney-Smith, a future First and Second - and still owe at least one more 1st to NY to complete their previous trade for Porzingis - for Kyrie and Bertans.

The very definition of questionable asset management.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[M2]

The Lakers just coughed up a hairball at home against the Bulls. Next they're at Chicago, and they have a home/road pair of games against the Jazz before the end of the season. My take is they need to go at least 2-1 in those if they want to make the play-in.

[KoryMac5]

He's also dealing with a terrible team around him. The Kyrie move is turning out like you'd expect a Kyrie move to turn out. The front office has spent a lot of money on a whole lot of nothing. Can they get in on KAT? Hardaway and Bertans (only $5M guaranteed for 2024-25, so he's kind of like an expiring) match on price and Dallas could put their 2025 and 2027 1st round picks on the table. I don't know if that gets it done, but they need a a star who meshes with Luka. They've got about $26M under the cap if they let their FAs walk ($31M if that includes Reggie Bullock). There's not much to buy on the open market. Josh Hart is the only one I look at and think "he'd help." I like Hardy and Christopher, but those are probably their two best assets for acquiring vets who can help. Gonna be some tough choices.

Kyrie has actually been good with the Mavs from all reports locker room etc...its more they lost all their depth in the trade and the guys they have left outside of Hardy aren't good.

Cuban will rue the day he let Brunson walk...

Powell, Bullock, and Green had a combined 3 pts...which is awful for 3 out of your 5 starters.

Luka got his 16th T so he has to sit out next game...

Maybe Luka needs to be the one to adjust...Mavs have brought in both KP and Kyrie and it hasn't worked
It's a mess of a team their best hope is that their pick this year doesn't convey...and they get lucky

[KoryMac5]

If you’re scoring at home, after the dust had settled, the Mavericks had traded Porzingis and Finney-Smith, a future First and Second - and still owe at least one more 1st to NY to complete their previous trade for Porzingis - for Kyrie and Bertans.

The very definition of questionable asset management.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cuban is a good example of why owners should not have a hand in day to day operations of a team...this is an owner who has now let both Brunson and Nash walk...that's a depressing track record.

Same guy who has had the luck of having both Dirk and Luka for the last 25 years and 1 chip to show for it...

He may be a billionaire but like you said above asset mgmt of this team is not his strong point.

[Mutaman]

Yeah, that's Monday for Philly. Even if Harden is back, I'm not liking their chances given that it's the tail end of the road trip and the bench seems to have forgotten how to play basketball.

It will help if, unlike the Bucks, they can make a 3.

[M2]

Kyrie has actually been good with the Mavs from all reports locker room etc...its more they lost all their depth in the trade and the guys they have left outside of Hardy aren't good.

Cuban will rue the day he let Brunson walk...

Powell, Bullock, and Green had a combined 3 pts...which is awful for 3 out of your 5 starters.

Luka got his 16th T so he has to sit out next game...

Maybe Luka needs to be the one to adjust...Mavs have brought in both KP and Kyrie and it hasn't worked
It's a mess of a team their best hope is that their pick this year doesn't convey...and they get lucky

If the Mavs go into the lottery and win it, I think that will convince everyone on the planet that the ping pong balls are rigged. BTW, I'm for it. Side question: is even a ROY contender is a good fit for the current Mavs? Rooks are fun, but it generally take 3-4 years for them to push the W-L needle. I assume if the plan is to capitalize on Luka and that means some right now guys.

Just because Kyrie hasn't thrown a bomb into the locker room (yet), it doesn't change that the team is 7-13 since he arrived. DFS and Dinwiddie were core guys, and the team is giving up too much size and too many points without them. Agreed about Brunson too. Amazing how many of the key players who got them to the WCF last season aren't there now.

When I typed "Christopher" early, I mean Josh Green. All Joshes apparently occupy a singularity inside my head.

Luka definitely needs to adjust. He needs to let his team share the ball, but they've got to build a team that can do it. BTW, no way should he be All-NBA this season even with his sick numbers. I'm invoking the World B. Free clause on this one. There's plenty of excellent players on good teams (and they're generally sacrificing some individual numbers to make that happen).

[M2]

Big win for Minnesota at Golden State tonight. They applied the clamps and held the Dubs to 96.

[Kingspoint]

Warriors no longer pursuing compensation for GPII trade...


https://media4.giphy.com/media/l3q2SaisWTeZnV9wk/giphy.mp4?cid=917c0c676dd1b7f072b2a6c4fd3d3025db4b dd87739aa1ed&rid=giphy.mp4&ct=g

[Kingspoint]

The Lakers just coughed up a hairball at home against the Bulls. Next they're at Chicago, and they have a home/road pair of games against the Jazz before the end of the season. My take is they need to go at least 2-1 in those if they want to make the play-in.

That was Chicago's 6th straight road win. The Lakers should not have been an obstacle for them.

[Kingspoint]

Are you saying Portland's not a good team and that trading Josh Hart left the team without enough quality players? One of these days you're going to recognize Nurkic is part of the problem. Here's my questions:

How do you sort out Grant?
Do you keep Reddish or Knox for anything other than nominal money?
If Portland admits to itself it's in a rebuild (and I would list an inability to be honest with themselves as their chief failing), is it better to have Dame as a local icon who spends his best remaining years on a team that's probably headed nowhere or to trade him to aid the rebuild around Sharpe and whoever is coming in this draft?

There's major issues in Ownerships and the Front Office. To let Paul Allen's college roomate basically run the franchise since Paul Allen died, while having a major stake in team-direction influencing, along with the VULCAN suits when Allen was alive, along with whatever hair-brained instructions he left to his sister Jody in his will, places Portland in a position of being a rudderless ship.

Look at what we got for trading away Nance, C. J., Powell and Covington? We basically got the problem of Grant, who is now over-valued by management and a Head Coach that's clueless as far as his negative contribution to the team (the same as Simons). They just keep backing themselves into Corners (like when they gave Norman Powell that stupid contract, forcing them to use a 3-Guard Lineup with a Guard (Powell), who is short and never rebounds the ball, and is probably the worst clutch shooter in the NBA...he chokes constantly...and is always injured).

They just overpaid for Simons, a player who negatively impacts the game whenever he's on the floor. His every other month game where he hits 9 three's is overshadowed by his negative play on both ends of the floor. He's Trae Young, but without the floor leadership on Offense, or any assemblance of ball movement on Offense.

Nurkic is not the problem. The team is always better whenver he's on the floor. Nurkic's contract is also correct for what he contributes to any team, especially one with Dame on it. All of the DARKO stats back up that Nurk is one of the premier Centers in the NBA. There's no disputing that.

Sharpe is special. What he showed the last two games is a level of play that right now is far Superior to anything Simons has ever done in his entire life. He should be starting next to Dame with Ant off the bench or Ant on another team. Little came alive tonight (whenever he's aggressive, he's a positive contributor on both ends of the floor), but that never happens in the plodding Offense of Dame and Ant and Grant, mainly because you can't be aggressive Offensively if you can't get a stop Defensively, and those three are as bad as it gets. Dame isn't lazy, but the other two are, while Dame will at least Rebound the ball and is a very good distributor, making those around him better. Grant and Ant make others worse around them.

Portland will bid against itself, sign Grant, keep Ant, start Shaedon at the "3", out of position, but with three horrible Defenders alongside of him, so he won't develop, and he'll look bad as a result. A Starting Lineup of Watford/Nurk/Thybulle/Sharpe/Dame is a great 1st Team. 2023 lottery pick/Eubanks/Little/Knox/Reddish/ is a great 2nd team (though there needs to be a real PG to replace Little/Knox/Reddish for half of the 2nd Unit's minutes, and if Keon Johnson played like he did today, then that could be him. There's no Grant or Ant in this equation. Billups, unfortunately, is still in the equation. It's kind of like speaking about the REDS and expecting them to construct a team the way the Yankees do. The tools in the front office and Ownership aren't there to get it done.

POR played really well tonight. SGA's free trips to the foul-line where he's never fouled gave OKC the win. No other reason why OKC won tonight. POR played well because bad defenders and lazy playes were removed from the equation. Watford missed most of the game from a twisted ankle, so it was truly an entire team of 2nd and 3rd Stringers who outplayed OKC tonight. Had POR been able to put just one of Nurk or Dame on the floor, they win. If Watford had not missed most of the game, they win. Those who subbed for Nurk, Dame and Watford all played well, but any one of those three would have made the difference in the late flow of the game where the whistle-blowing took over to allow OKC to kill Portland's momentum for a long stretch of time, come from behind and take a lead, about a 12-point swing over six minutes of play, including forcing the removal of Little with his 5th foul early in the 4th Quarter. Little was on fire on both ends of the floor, and was the best player on the floor for both teams. Sharpe was 2nd best. Eubanks was 3rd. SGA was 4th. POR played great Defense against SGA all night long, but 15 free-throw attempts with at least 10 of them gifted, was the deciding factor in the game.

[M2]

So much denial. I'll leave it at if Portland brings back essentially the same crew then nothing is getting better, and that they'd have to attach a draft pick to Jusuf Nurkic to give him away.

[dubc47834]

So much denial. I'll leave it if Portland brings back essentially the same crew then nothing is getting better and that they'd have to attach a draft pick to Jusuf Nurkic to give him away.

Oh you mean, the same crew that's suppossed to go 55-27 this year and lose in the 3rd round in 7 games. That'd be a pretty good team....but not this Blazers team!!!

[Kingspoint]

Just like the NBA has done several times with Draymond Green in the past, Russell Westbrook in the past and others,.....

After the game, crew chief Kevin Scott said the officials made the right call in assessing a technical on Doncic because he used profane language, per Callie Caplan of The Dallas Morning News.

“Doncic was assessed a technical foul for his use of profanity directed at the officials in protest to a no-call that was correctly judged in postgame video review,” Scott said.

Apparently the NBA disagreed with Scott’s assessment.

[SteelSD]

So, no Embiid, no Harden, with Maxey really the only offensive threat the Sixers had all night, and after the Sixers emptied their bench to come almost all the way back from 22 points down...the officials- after setting tables for a reception hall full of home cooking all night long- STILL found another two different ways on the same play to screw Philly out of a shot at OT when they missed an out-of-bounds call on Jeff Green and then failed to overturn a terrible foul call. It should have been Sixers ball with about 15 seconds to go. Instead, the Nuggets got to shoot free throws to ice the game.

Good job Paul Reed- 7 for 7 from the field, all-energy, 9 boards, 2 steals and a block. Well done. Jalen McDaniels, with 14 points on 6-for-8 shooting, led the team with a +15.

The Sixers had no business being in that game that late without Embiid and Harden, starting Dewayne Dedmon and then coming back with him after halftime for God knows what reason, and a finishing lineup of Jalen McDaniels, Montrezl Harrell, Jaden Springer, Furkan Korkmaz, and Shake Milton. But they were, despite the Nuggets keeping their starters in after Philly waived the white flag, presumably in an effort to stat pad for Jokic. I'd say don't get me started on Jokic, but I'm gonna' start on him. The guy was terrible defensively. Truly brutal. Officials gifted him half his free thows, and about two thirds of his 12 assists were simply "hand the ball off, set a moving screen, and watch a guy take zero to two dribbles and put up a shot". The guy is a walking poster child for why NBA fans deserve far better analytics models that we currently have access to. It drives me nuts that the guy may be gifted a third consecutive MVP award, while watching guys like Embiid, Giannis, and Jason Tatum (to name just three) play much higher level basketball on a nightly basis.

[Kingspoint]

Oh you mean, the same crew that's suppossed to go 55-27 this year and lose in the 3rd round in 7 games. That'd be a pretty good team....but not this Blazers team!!!

Since that team never got together, we'll never know.

[dubc47834]

Since that team never got together, we'll never know.

I guess...but you already know what excuses are like.....

[KoryMac5]

Doncic's pass last night to Jaden Hardy while trapped in the corner was just unreal...like maybe less than a .05% probability of actually completing it.

Dallas finally gets a win...I did like some of the young players for the Pacers Nwora and Mathurin both stood out to me in last nights game as did Nemhard. If they draft well and sign a key FA this offseason they could set themselves up for a bit.

[M2]

I guess...but you already know what excuses are like.....

Milwaukee has had Giannis and Khris Middleton start together exactly twice this season. Boston's had its starting five from last season start four times this season. Yet somehow they have the best records in the NBA. I suppose if their teams "got together" they'd be close to undefeated.

[M2]

I did like some of the young players for the Pacers Nwora and Mathurin both stood out to me in last nights game as did Nemhard. If they draft well and sign a key FA this offseason they could set themselves up for a bit.

The Pacers confuse me a bit. They had it working for the first half of the season, then Halliburton got injured and they completely lost it, then he returned and it looked like they might get it back, but now they're in full lottery mode. So I'm trying to figure how real the 23-18 Pacers were. They need forwards. Good news is this draft is loaded with forwards. They also have salary cap room, though I don't see a forward on whom I'd splash a lot of money. Even the RFA market is sort of meh. I suppose they could throw medium money at Grant Williams, but that's not a terribly sexy move.

I'm excited to see how Haliburton and Mathurin progress. I think they're going to be a big and nasty backcourt. I'm hoping they come into next season with a chip on their shoulder and playing like they've got something to prove (which they do).

[dubc47834]

Milwaukee has had Giannis and Khris Middleton start together exactly twice this season. Boston's had its starting five from last season start four times this season. Yet somehow they have the best records in the NBA. I suppose if their teams "got together" they'd be close to undefeated.

It's that darned coach and the terrible officiating. Just trying to hold Dame back, it's a conspiracy I tell ya!!!

[KoryMac5]

The Pacers confuse me a bit. They had it working for the first half of the season, then Halliburton got injured and they completely lost it, then he returned and it looked like they might get it back, but now they're in full lottery mode. So I'm trying to figure how real the 23-18 Pacers were. They need forwards. Good news is this draft is loaded with forwards. They also have salary cap room, though I don't see a forward on whom I'd splash a lot of money. Even the RFA market is sort of meh. I suppose they could throw medium money at Grant Williams, but that's not a terribly sexy move.

I'm excited to see how Haliburton and Mathurin progress. I think they're going to be a big and nasty backcourt. I'm hoping they come into next season with a chip on their shoulder and playing like they've got something to prove (which they do).

I think when healthy they can be competitive...this year is tough to grade based on injuries and them going full tank mode second half of the season...signing a key veteran or 2 would help guide things a long for sure.

[M2]

It's that darned coach and the terrible officiating. Just trying to hold Dame back, it's a conspiracy I tell ya!!!

I still think Miami will be knocking on the door with Tyler Herro and draft picks and asking about Dame. The Heat strike me as a tough club for a player to pass on - endless summer + great organization.

[dubc47834]

I still think Miami will be knocking on the door with Tyler Herro and draft picks and asking about Dame. The Heat strike me as a tough club for a player to pass on - endless summer + great organization.

Him and Miami definitely would be a great fit. I don't know if he would be willing to leave Portland. I know I bust KP's balls a lot about his homerism, but that is one thing that I give Dame a ton of credit on, he loves Portland.

[Revering4Blue]

So much denial. I'll leave it at if Portland brings back essentially the same crew then nothing is getting better, and that they'd have to attach a draft pick to Jusuf Nurkic to give him away.

I'd be much more concerned about the next cycling of assets phase - including possibly overpaying for the likes of Reddish; what to do with Keon Johnson etc.. - than Nurkic, whose only glaring fault is that he cannot stay healthy.

Even so, with both Nukic and Eubanks in tow, I still say they should have been in on James Wiseman when they decided to trade away GP's son. If the idea was to avoid the tax, then why not (at the time) accept Wiseman and deal Keon Johnson to, say, Detroit, as Weaver loves taking on young reclamation projects. And the Blazers still undoubtedly would have received several 2nd round picks in the deal.

As an aside, while I totally get moving on from Wiseman from the Warriors angle, sending him away along with several 2nds for only Gary Payton II amounts to borderline (strong statement alert) Hornets level buffoonery. Prove me wrong, Bob Meyers.

[M2]

I'd be much more concerned about the next cycling of assets phase - including possibly overpaying for the likes of Reddish; what to do with Keon Johnson etc.. - than Nurkic, whose only glaring fault is that he cannot stay healthy.

Even so, with both Nukic and Eubanks in tow, I still say they should have been in on James Wiseman when they decided to trade away GP's son. If the idea was to avoid the tax, then why not (at the time) accept Wiseman and deal Keon Johnson to, say, Detroit, as Weaver loves taking on young reclamation projects. And the Blazers still undoubtedly would have received several 2nd round picks in the deal.

As an aside, while I totally get moving on from Wiseman from the Warriors angle, sending him away along with several 2nds for only Gary Payton II amounts to borderline (strong statement alert) Hornets level buffoonery. Prove me wrong, Bob Meyers.

Nurkic gets taken out on the perimeter and drowned on a nightly basis (or sometimes he plays more of a zone to prevent that and the Blazers get bombed by open shooters). He's swiftly trending toward Enes Freedom.

Totally agreed about the peril of paying Reddish/Johnson/Knox real money to stick around. Portland was in this boat with Nurkic and Simons last summer. I get paying to keep the asset, but then they've got to be an asset you can move (Nurkic isn't and Reddish won't be, but there's a market for Simons).

Seems like the challenge for GS is can it upgrade at center? Wiseman and his salary slot probably would have helped more than the Mitten.

[Revering4Blue]

The Pacers confuse me a bit. They had it working for the first half of the season, then Halliburton got injured and they completely lost it, then he returned and it looked like they might get it back, but now they're in full lottery mode. So I'm trying to figure how real the 23-18 Pacers were. They need forwards. Good news is this draft is loaded with forwards. They also have salary cap room, though I don't see a forward on whom I'd splash a lot of money. Even the RFA market is sort of meh. I suppose they could throw medium money at Grant Williams, but that's not a terribly sexy move.

I'm excited to see how Haliburton and Mathurin progress. I think they're going to be a big and nasty backcourt. I'm hoping they come into next season with a chip on their shoulder and playing like they've got something to prove (which they do).


I think when healthy they can be competitive...this year is tough to grade based on injuries and them going full tank mode second half of the season...signing a key veteran or 2 would help guide things a long for sure.

The Pacers' current lottery/tank mode is not, IMO, by design. They just cannot stay healthy. Couple that regressions by Duarte and Jalen Smith (although he's played better as of late) and inconsistent usage of Jackson (about my only Carlisle criticism) and we are where we are.

IMHO, the lack of veterans is overblown: Hill, Hield, Turner, McConnell, that's enough for now. I'd feel differently with a stronger FA/RFA market.

As for the draft, no matter the team, I still 100 per cent believe in the following principles in this era of relative position less basketball:

1)Draft BPA first. Worry about where the player fits in later.

Reaching for need over and over at the expense of BPA takes you down the path of the Jordan owned Hornets.

2)Utilize trades and FA to fill needs.

3)If the object is to win now - If you are beyond the just make the playoffs mode with a 10 per cent chance to advance, which Indiana isn't - trade the pick for a veteran. But DO NOT reach for need.

4)The Joel Embiid principle: Never, ever bypass superior talent just because said talent isn't available to suit up right away.

Luckily, as M2 pointed out, this draft is loaded with quality forwards, so drafting for BPA and need simultaneously more than likely dovetails here for the Pacers.

This franchise needs to stay the course and actually build a team with an actual realistic chance of advancing. Read: Enter the playoffs with a 6th or higher seed.

[Revering4Blue]

Wow!

https://from-way-downtown.com/2022/08/24/james-edwards-the-nbas-next-super-giant-1979/



In 1979, the well-heeled Dr. Jerry Buss, now of NBA legend, came oh-so close to buying the Pacers. “The discussions reportedly are down to the fine print wording and the sale should happen . . . within the next two weeks,” wrote the Indianapolis News in March 1979. The talks stretched through April, and, just before the NBA Board of Governors gave its approval for the sale of the Pacers on May 5, Buss backed out to the deal to purchase his hometown Lakers instead. And the rest is NBA history.

[M2]

The Pacers' current lottery/tank mode is not, IMO, by design. They just cannot stay healthy. Couple that regressions by Duarte and Jalen Smith (although he's played better as of late) and inconsistent usage of Jackson (about my only Carlisle criticism) and we are where we are.

The most critical flaw that got exposed this year what how Halliburton-reliant they are. I expect Mathurin to be on a bit of Jaylen Brown path where he's taking leaps every summer (because he seems exceptionally driven). That will help, and then it's all about those forwards.


IMHO, the lack of veterans is overblown: Hill, Hield, Turner, McConnell, that's enough for now. I'd feel differently with a stronger FA/RFA market.

Agreed on the vets. That's a pretty solid crew (maybe not Hill so much because he's on the verge of retirement, but the other three are good guys to have on a basketball team). They'll probably add a couple of vets this summer just because they have plenty of cap space. I'd say long guys with high dawg factors would be good fits. A forward who can shoot from 3 wouldn't be a bad thing.

[KoryMac5]

The most critical flaw that got exposed this year what how Halliburton-reliant they are. I expect Mathurin to be on a bit of Jaylen Brown path where he's taking leaps every summer (because he seems exceptionally driven). That will help, and then it's all about those forwards.



Agreed on the vets. That's a pretty solid crew (maybe not Hill so much because he's on the verge of retirement, but the other three are good guys to have on a basketball team). They'll probably add a couple of vets this summer just because they have plenty of cap space. I'd say long guys with high dawg factors would be good fits. A forward who can shoot from 3 wouldn't be a bad thing.

They structured Turners contract really well too as it decreases significantly in value next season creating more cap room. Not sure what they do with Buddy, Carlisle approached him about a bench role recently and that's a lot of cake to have relegated to a 6th or 7th man role. Does he stay willing to do what's best for the team through next season.

[Mutaman]

Query: Are the Sixers and the Celtics intentionally tanking for reasons I can’t figure out? Is it possible that the Sixers are gonna fall to the fourth seed and for all their hard work in trying to load manage and get the number one seed at the same time, the Bucks are still going to have to face the Sixers in Round Two? Where Embiid will beat the heck out of Giannis and never get called for anything?
It’s all very confusing right now. Maybe the season's just too long. Maybe this post is going to really come back to haunt me.

[M2]

The Wizards beat the Celtics so bad tonight that Johnny Davis got 23 minutes of court time.

[Mutaman]

The Wizards beat the Celtics so bad tonight that Johnny Davis got 23 minutes of court time.

Still not a very good night for Badger fans.

[Mutaman]

Looks like the Cavaliers don't want that 3 seed either.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Looks like the Cavaliers don't want that 3 seed either.

Good effort without 2 starters. Hawks played like they needed it and the Cavs played like they’d like to have it. I’m not sure how the Cavs lost the challenge. Aren’t you not allowed to jump into guys when shooting now?

I had a small bet on the game that involved under 239. Mitchell had the ball with 3 seconds to go and the total was at 238. I was conflicted.

[M2]

What's gotten into the Hornets? They just won at OKC, which is still trying for a top 6 seed.

[SteelSD]

What's gotten into the Hornets? They just won at OKC, which is still trying for a top 6 seed.

That was with their hospital crew too. I mean, Theo Maledon, Svi Mykhailiuk...really?

And damn you for making me look at that box score. Isaiah Joe put up 33 points for OKC on 11-for-18 shooting and six threes. Grrrr...

[M2]

I would like to hear a recording of the hair dryer Steve Kerr gave Golden State at halftime last night. They were down 17 to the Pelicans in a game where a loss would really screw their chances of escaping the play-in and then they played out of the their socks in the 2nd half for a comfortable 11-point win.

[BuckeyeRed27]

What's gotten into the Hornets? They just won at OKC, which is still trying for a top 6 seed.

They are locked in to the fourth worst record.

The interesting one is Orlando and Portland who are tied for the 5th worst. Orlando hasn’t really tried to tank yet…but now might be the time.

[M2]

Big win for the Knicks tonight over the Heat, though bad news too because Julius Randle limped off the court. Immanuel Quickley and Quentin Grimes picked up the scoring slack for tonight, but they're going to need Randle if they want a chance of making it past the Cavs in the 1st round of the playoffs. The Nets also closed out big against the Rockets to take a 1.5-game lead over the Heat for the 6th slot. Yet I was listening to the Bill Simmons podcast the other day and he's insisting the Heat will take the 6th slot for finishing 1st in the Southeast. Like, he's 100% on this. I've reached the point where I want the Heat to finish 7th just to see if that stupid rule exists.

[SteelSD]

Well, that was hard. Both Embiid and Harden were back, but it didn't look like either were at 100%, and it took a late burst for Philly to avenge their loss to the Mavs with a 116-108 win at home. The Sixers are going to need more from James Harden than 4-for-14 shooting when playoff time comes, but he did drop 12 dimes in his return. Embiid played only 33 minutes, probably to rest his leg for a couple extra min per quarter, and finished with a decent 25-point/9-board outing, hitting a timely three in the fourth and then coming up with a huge block on Donic at the bucket. Tyrese Maxey threw in an almost quiet 22 points and actually got to the line a few times tonight.

While the Sixers were trying to get back in sync, it looked like the Mavs plan of tossing up as many treys as possible might just work. It did for three quarters, but the makes dried up in the fourth quarter, while still finishing at nearly 40% from deep for the game. Tim Hardaway Jr. had probably the best night for the Mavs, hitting five threes on his way to 21 points, but other than he, Doncic (24 points, 10 boards, 8 assists), and Irving (23 points), there wasn't much help.

Aside from a couple exceptionally stupid fouls at the end of quarters, the bench didn't stink for a change, led by Melton's 17 points and a team-high +16 in his return to the second unit. Man, the guy seems to be confused with the rock as he approaches the rim though; turning what should be easy buckets into high-tension adventures, particularly on the break. One of the dumb foul perpetrators, Jalen McDaniels, played solid defense throughout the game, with that one exception, and finished with a +15 on the night. I'm starting to wonder if he doesn't have Deadpool-like baby hands though because he can't seem to catch anything. Weird.

Six games left in the regular season and health concerns for the top two stars. Yup. Seems like normal Sixers playoffs are just around the corner.

[M2]

The thing that jumped out at me about the Philly-Dallas game was Embiid and Doncic talking at halfcourt as the clock wound down and then after the buzzer. I'm not an expert lip reader but I could swear I saw Embiid ask "Yo, do you like cheesesteaks?"

[BuckeyeRed27]

Well, that was hard. Both Embiid and Harden were back, but it didn't look like either were at 100%, and it took a late burst for Philly to avenge their loss to the Mavs with a 116-108 win at home. The Sixers are going to need more from James Harden than 4-for-14 shooting when playoff time comes, but he did drop 12 dimes in his return. Embiid played only 33 minutes, probably to rest his leg for a couple extra min per quarter, and finished with a decent 25-point/9-board outing, hitting a timely three in the fourth and then coming up with a huge block on Donic at the bucket. Tyrese Maxey threw in an almost quiet 22 points and actually got to the line a few times tonight.

While the Sixers were trying to get back in sync, it looked like the Mavs plan of tossing up as many treys as possible might just work. It did for three quarters, but the makes dried up in the fourth quarter, while still finishing at nearly 40% from deep for the game. Tim Hardaway Jr. had probably the best night for the Mavs, hitting five threes on his way to 21 points, but other than he, Doncic (24 points, 10 boards, 8 assists), and Irving (23 points), there wasn't much help.

Aside from a couple exceptionally stupid fouls at the end of quarters, the bench didn't stink for a change, led by Melton's 17 points and a team-high +16 in his return to the second unit. Man, the guy seems to be confused with the rock as he approaches the rim though; turning what should be easy buckets into high-tension adventures, particularly on the break. One of the dumb foul perpetrators, Jalen McDaniels, played solid defense throughout the game, with that one exception, and finished with a +15 on the night. I'm starting to wonder if he doesn't have Deadpool-like baby hands though because he can't seem to catch anything. Weird.

Six games left in the regular season and health concerns for the top two stars. Yup. Seems like normal Sixers playoffs are just around the corner.

Looks like you’re getting Brooklyn though, so that’s basically a bye.

[Mutaman]

How do you win a game when u have 18 turnovers and the other team has 8? Easy, have one guy score 51 and another score 38 with a triple double.

[M2]

Jrue Holiday went 51-8-8 tonight. It will be criminal if he's not on an All-NBA team this season.

[Mutaman]

Jrue Holiday went 51-8-8 tonight. It will be criminal if he's not on an All-NBA team this season.



“I’d like someone to name 5 other players who are better than Jrue Holiday. He can guard anybody. He’s a guy that’s too often overlooked as a truly great player.”
Rick Carlisle

[Mutaman]

Bucks' state of mind with six left to go:

19344

[M2]

With a 40-point win over Portland tonight, Sacramento ends the longest playoff drought in NBA history. Light the beam.

[M2]

“I’d like someone to name 5 other players who are better than Jrue Holiday. He can guard anybody. He’s a guy that’s too often overlooked as a truly great player.”
Rick Carlisle

I assume opposing guards don't sleep the night before or after they have to play against Holiday.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Jrue Holiday went 51-8-8 tonight. It will be criminal if he's not on an All-NBA team this season.

Awesome game, but counter point, he scored 45 points in the previous 4 games combined.

All NBA guards:
Curry
Ja
SGA
Mitchell
Luka
Fox
Dame
Harden

Two people on that list aren’t making an all NBA team and I didn’t include Brunson who I’d also have before Holiday.

[Fil3232]

With a 40-point win over Portland tonight, Sacramento ends the longest playoff drought in NBA history. Light the beam.

Had to chuckle a bit as Dame watched in street clothes. Nice poetic rounding out of a months-long “conversation” here.

[dubc47834]

Had to chuckle a bit as Dame watched in street clothes. Nice poetic rounding out of a months-long “conversation” here.

But...but...but, nobody in the league takes care of themselves better than Dame does...NOBODY

[Mutaman]

Awesome game, but counter point, he scored 45 points in the previous 4 games combined.

All NBA guards:
Curry
Ja
SGA
Mitchell
Luka
Fox
Dame
Harden

Two people on that list aren’t making an all NBA team and I didn’t include Brunson who I’d also have before Holiday.

Are we taking defense into consideration?

[BuckeyeRed27]

Are we taking defense into consideration?

If you want. You got him in front of any of those guys?

[Mutaman]

If you want. You got him in front of any of those guys?

Yes- me and Rick Carlisle

[BuckeyeRed27]

Yes- me and Rick Carlisle

Makes sense. He’s scored 35 or more 4 times this season and 2 of them were against the Pacers.

[Mutaman]

Makes sense. He’s scored 35 or more 4 times this season and 2 of them were against the Pacers.

Jrue's value is not in how many points he scores. Also bear in mind that offensively he is a natural # 2 who is forced to play point on the Bucks .

[BuckeyeRed27]

Jrue's value is not in how many points he scores. Also bear in mind that offensively he is a natural # 2 who is forced to play point on the Bucks .

Hmm defensively he’s a 2 because of his size. But he’s a PG on offense for sure.

What on earth is going on with the Bucks tonight?

[M2]

Jrue's kind of the archetype combo guard, IMO.

[SteelSD]

Jrue's value is not in how many points he scores. Also bear in mind that offensively he is a natural # 2 who is forced to play point on the Bucks .

He's not playing out of position with the Bucks. Holiday has been a pretty skilled point guard since his rookie season in Philly. In fact, his 625 Assists in 2012-13 rank as the seventh highest seasonal total in Sixers franchise history. With the Pels, he almost always had the most scoring upside of the guards they wanted to start (See: Rondo, E. Payton, Lonzo Ball), but he's never been a truly adept shooting guard. That being said, as overused as the term "combo guard" has become, if it had a dictionary definition, Holiday's picture probably should be right next to it at this point in his career. And that's a huge compliment, given how few of those animals really exist.

- - - Updated - - -

LOL. I swear that I started my post before M2 posted that "combo guard archetype" thought.

[SteelSD]

What on earth is going on with the Bucks tonight?

I think the Celtics believe they can catch the Bucks for the 1-seed, and the Bucks don't think that's possible.

[M2]

Awesome game, but counter point, he scored 45 points in the previous 4 games combined.

All NBA guards:
Curry
Ja
SGA
Mitchell
Luka
Fox
Dame
Harden

Two people on that list aren’t making an all NBA team and I didn’t include Brunson who I’d also have before Holiday.

I wouldn't look twice at Luka or Dame due their teams being disasters. Dame's not going to make 60 games and the Warriors have been blah. And, honestly, head-to-head I kind of expect Jrue to beat every single one of those guys. To me he's a modern Dennis Johnson, who fills whatever gaps needs to be filled to beat the other team. I'd have him first team with Mitchell. I'd go Fox and Ja for the 2nd team and Harden and SGA for the 3rd (I'm assuming Jaylen Brown is getting a forward slot). Brunson would be my toughest cut, but that would be my top 6.

[M2]

I think the Celtics believe they can catch the Bucks for the 1-seed, and the Bucks don't think that's possible.

Might just be the Celtics felt they needed to send a message tonight and the Bucks decided this wasn't the time or the place.

[BuckeyeRed27]

I wouldn't look twice at Luka or Dame due their teams being disasters. Dame's not going to make 60 games and the Warriors have been blah. And, honestly, head-to-head I kind of expect Jrue to beat every single one of those guys. To me he's a modern Dennis Johnson, who fills whatever gaps needs to be filled to beat the other team. I'd have him first team with Mitchell. I'd go Fox and Ja for the 2nd team and Harden and SGA for the 3rd (I'm assuming Jaylen Brown is getting a forward slot). Brunson would be my toughest cut, but that would be my top 6.

Whew tough to leave Steph out. They’ve been underwhelming for them, but still a playoff team and he will get enough. I’d leave Dame out too because of the games and the Blazers shutting it down.

I’d go Curry Fox first, mitchell Ja second and SGA Luka third unless Mavs miss then Harden over Luka.

I think Brown will be a forward for all NBA. He should be for sure.

[Mutaman]

What a train wreck in Milwaukee. Bucks had plenty of excuses last year- no Middleton, Lopez coming off the surgery, no home court. But they lost that series because they could not make an outside shot and Boston would not miss. Same thing happened tonight.
Things to really worry about:
1.Bucks have now lost to the Celtics, the Sixers and Denver and two of those games have been major blowouts.
2. Middleton can’t seem to play two decent games in a row.
3. Caunaughton has not come back from his operation.
4. They can’t seem to make a shot against the good teams.

[Mitri]

89 total points in Q1 of the Knicks v. Cavs game. Mitchell and Brunson going bananas so far.

[Mitri]

BRUNSON!!!! Career-high scoring night in a likely preview of the Eastern 4/5 playoff round.

JB once again proves my theory that he is the definitive glue of this team (not Randle). I love Randle but his type of iso-ball can get real clunky in big games and clutch situations. Knicks have a deep rotation that leans better defensively down the ladder (Deuce McBride is a king in my world).

A few thoughts:

- Josh Hart has an unbelievable motor. I would never, ever let this guy leave my team if he were one it. Sort of a poor man's Draymond (in his prime, not current Draymond), jack-of-all-trades facilitator. Elite rebounder, 2-way intensity, can hit a big-3, always pushing the tempo. He's exactly what this team needed and they'll do everything to sign him.
- Isiah Hartenstein is a major unsung hero of this Knicks season. He's a great passer, holds his own defensively and has a surprisingly nice touch around the rim.
- Evan Mobley is an unbelievable player. Mitchell is everything the Knicks need. But I still think the Knicks have a really good shot at winning a playoff series thanks to their diversity of scoring options - Randle, Brunson, Quickley, Barrett, Grimes (who has been heating up and possibly, maybe coming into his own) can all score at-will. No real slouches on the bench. It can get clunky with Randle/Brunson together, maybe that's not a problem next season, but I think they have a shot at this and maybe even giving they #1 seed fits in round 2.

[SteelSD]

I hate it when the Sixers play the Raptors. That team is just out of control constantly, flapping arms, hacking, shoving and jumping in front of guys. They're just dangerous, and it gets worse when the officials are incompetent, as they were tonight. Without Tobias Harris, and despite racking up two techs caused by Ashley Moyer-Gleich being terrible at her job, Philly ran out to a 24-point first-half lead. But poor starts to both the third and fourth quarters pulled Toronto to within three. The Sixers stabilized behind a solid 23-point (9-of-16 from the floor), 11-assist performance from Harden and a 25-point/12-rebound effort from Embiid. The bench had an "on" night in run of "on/off" games, outscoring the Raptors 34 to 17 on the night, with Paul Reed again impressing (11 points/4 offensive rebounds in 14 minutes), and both Jalen McDaniels and Danuel House were useful in combating Toronto's length.

If I were Boston or Milwaukee, I'd be worried about getting out of a Raptors series with everyone healthy. Embiid could have been seriously injured on two different plays tonight- one where he had his ankle twisted when Scottie Barnes recklessly jumped in front of him on a drive, and the second where the back up center (Koloko) wound up, nailed Embiid in the shoulder during a shot attempt, then intentionally grabbed his arm and pulled him to the court. The second should have been a Flagrant 1 at minimum, but the clueless crew instead replay-ruled it as a common foul and a tech.

Next stop- Milwaukee on Sunday. With the Randle-less Knicks win over Cleveland tonight, Philly's magic number to lock up at least the three seed appears to be down to one. I don't know that they'll get it against the Bucks, especially on the road, but it'd be nice to rest some players over the last couple of games to ensure that everyone's healthy going into the playoffs.

[BuckeyeRed27]

BRUNSON!!!! Career-high scoring night in a likely preview of the Eastern 4/5 playoff round.

JB once again proves my theory that he is the definitive glue of this team (not Randle). I love Randle but his type of iso-ball can get real clunky in big games and clutch situations. Knicks have a deep rotation that leans better defensively down the ladder (Deuce McBride is a king in my world).

A few thoughts:

- Josh Hart has an unbelievable motor. I would never, ever let this guy leave my team if he were one it. Sort of a poor man's Draymond (in his prime, not current Draymond), jack-of-all-trades facilitator. Elite rebounder, 2-way intensity, can hit a big-3, always pushing the tempo. He's exactly what this team needed and they'll do everything to sign him.
- Isiah Hartenstein is a major unsung hero of this Knicks season. He's a great passer, holds his own defensively and has a surprisingly nice touch around the rim.
- Evan Mobley is an unbelievable player. Mitchell is everything the Knicks need. But I still think the Knicks have a really good shot at winning a playoff series thanks to their diversity of scoring options - Randle, Brunson, Quickley, Barrett, Grimes (who has been heating up and possibly, maybe coming into his own) can all score at-will. No real slouches on the bench. It can get clunky with Randle/Brunson together, maybe that's not a problem next season, but I think they have a shot at this and maybe even giving they #1 seed fits in round 2.

That game was silly. It was fun, but it had more of a pick up game feel than a playoff basketball game feel.

It’s hard to really glean anything from it without Allen and Okoro who are pretty vital to what the Cavs do defensively. Brunson feasted on not having Allen tonight with where he got his points.

[texasdave]

The NBA and the Player's Association have come to an agreement. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nba/article-11927709/NBA-stars-no-longer-tested-banned-marijuana.html?ito=windows-widget-push-notification&ci=556128

[texasdave]

Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Tony Parker and Gregg Popovich are all going into the Hall of Fame on August 11th.

[Mutaman]

Congratulations to D. Wade. Ring out Ahoya!

[texasdave]

I have yet to see Shaedon Sharpe in action, but he is averaging 25 ppg over his last 7 contests.

[M2]

I have yet to see Shaedon Sharpe in action, but he is averaging 25 ppg over his last 7 contests.

He's got eye-popping ability. He scores right now by being ridiculous. Jumps over three dudes, blows through holes you didn't know were there. Big upside as he polishes his skills and adds strength.

[SteelSD]

Good win by Milwaukee at home tonight. The Bucks started out 10-for-11 from the floor, with their one miss resulting in an offensive board and a score anyway. You're probably not going to come back from that, but the Sixers made a game of it; pulling within four points. But then the bench...that bench. De'Anthony Melton had an off night, hitting only one of five shots, and neither Niang or Jalen McDaniels looked like they belonged out there. Rivers inexplicably took out Paul Reed- who was active as heck, grabbing four offensive boards and playing solid D- for PJ Tucker, who just had Giannis shoot over him and keeping Niang out there, who was completely useless on both ends tonight. Danuel House was brought in too late to really help, but did well enough that Rivers needs to look at giving him some minutes. But still, you can't continually have teams double-up the scoring totals on your bench (prior to garbage time) and hope to win on the road. Next up is a home game on Tuesday, with Boston visiting.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Baring anything weird happening it looks like the East top 6 is set after todays results.

[Mutaman]

Budenholzer: "We certainly feel that Giannis is the MVP."

That should settle the issue.

[Kingspoint]

In-season tournament:

The NBA will introduce an in-season tournament, likely as part of the 2023/24 schedule. Here are some details:

The first round of the tournament will be part of the regular season schedule, with the top eight teams advancing to a single-elimination event in December.

The “Final Four” will be played at a neutral location. Las Vegas is reportedly receiving consideration.

NBA teams are expected to initially have 80 regular season games on their schedule. The leftover games for the teams that don’t make the single-elimination portion of the in-season tournament would be scheduled at a later date, while the two teams that make the final of the tournament would end up playing 83 games.

Prize money for the in-season tournament will be $500K per player.

- - - Updated - - -

The NBA’s new Collective Bargaining Agreement will introduce a new cap exception for second-round draft picks, reports Shams Charania of The Athletic (Twitter link).

Under the current system, teams sign their first-round picks to four-year contracts using the “rookie scale exception,” with the compensation amounts dependent on the player’s exact draft position. But if a team wants to sign its second-round pick for more than the rookie minimum or for more than two seasons, it must use cap room or an exception such as the mid-level.

While we don’t yet know exactly what the second-round pick exception will look like, Charania suggests that teams will no longer have to use their mid-level exceptions when they sign their second-rounders to their first NBA contracts, so the new exception should allow for deals up to three or four years.

Here are more updates on the NBA’s new CBA:

Under the new CBA, there will no longer be any restrictions on how many players on Designated Rookie or Designated Veteran contracts a team can carry, per Adrian Wojnarowski and Bobby Marks of ESPN (Twitter link). In the 2017 CBA, teams were prohibited from having more than two players on each kind of contract on their rosters and couldn’t acquire more than one via trade.

Restricted free agents will benefit a little from the new CBA, according to Wojnarowski and Marks, who report (via Twitter) that qualifying offers for RFAs will increase by 10% from their current scale amount, while the matching period for offer sheets will be reduced from 48 hours to 24 hours.

I don't get this next one...

The NBA and NBPA have agreed that prospects attending the annual draft combine will be required to undergo physical exams, per Charania and Mike Vorkunov of The Athletic (Twitter link). The results of those physicals then will be distributed to select teams based on where the player is projected to be drafted, Charania adds. Presumably, that means a team drafting at No. 25 wouldn’t have access to the physical exam for a player projected to be a top-10 pick.

Charania has also provided more info on how players will be able to invest in NBA and WNBA franchises, explaining that they’ll do so via a private equity firm selected by the NBPA. Additionally, while players will be able to enter into endorsement deals with sports betting companies, there will be “complete separation” from the gambling component, according to Charania (Twitter link).

Team and league licensing revenue will be added to the NBA’s Basketball Related Income for the first time, report Wojnarowski and Marks (Twitter link). That revenue is estimated to be worth $160MM for 2023/24 and will be added to the BRI total that the players and owners split approximately equally.

[Kingspoint]

He's got eye-popping ability. He scores right now by being ridiculous. Jumps over three dudes, blows through holes you didn't know were there. Big upside as he polishes his skills and adds strength.

....and, he's passing and distributing, he's jumping over three guys to get a rebound and rebounding well. He's making good decisions. He's going to be a very good Defender. He does a great job staying in front of his opponent and he's been switching well.

Chauncey said something that was music to my ears...."Shaedon does everything you want in a 2-Guard, and he scores from all three levels". Bye-bye Simons?

Without Grant, Ant, Nurk, Dame, Little, Reddish (and, of course, Hart and Payton), the Blazers used for the majority of minutes 3 players from the G-League signed this week, one making his NBA debut, two rookies in Jabari Walker and Shaedon Sharpe, and three seldom used players in the NBA in Drew Eubanks, Trendon Watford and Kevin Knox. They went into Minnesota and outhustled them for 48 minutes from tip to finish in a strong victory. It just shows you what effort and higher basketball IQ's can produce.

Shaedon Sharpe has a very high basketball IQ. You can see it on display on both ends of the floor. He's flying in from 15 feet away and blocking shots. Watford has a great basketball IQ. One of the three guys from the G-League was their DEF POY, another is a very good 29-year old PG in Sheldon Mays, a Senior at LSU when Watford was a Freshman. I'd rather have these guys than have Grant and Ant. I want effort. The ball movement by these guys who had never seen each other on a basketball floor before was better than anything the Blazers had displayed in any of their games the last nine years years. All three G-League players are good ball distributors, so everyone was passing and cutting. They looked like the Golden State Warriors on Offense and Defense. It's just so rare to see Portland play basketball the right way and it was because Billups (or Stotts, or Dame, who always brings everything to a half on Offense, while he's pretty clueless on Defense) was not involved and he just let these guys go out and play loose.

We still have alone the 5th worst record in the league, but only one game ahead of three teams, IND, ORL and WAS. I don't care how many ping-pong balls we get. That stuff takes care of itself. It's nice to see good basketball for a change. The win in UTA was also great (no Ant or Grant).

[Kingspoint]

All-NBA and postseason award voting:

Two key changes will impact voting on postseason awards beginning in 2023/24:

Players will need to appear in a minimum of 65 games to be eligible to be earn postseason awards such as MVP, Rookie of the Year, All-NBA, etc. One report indicated that there will be some “conditions” attached to the minimum games requirement, though it’s unclear at this point what those conditions will look like.

The three All-NBA teams will be positionless rather than featuring two guards, two forwards, and one center.


Salary cap changes

The following changes will apply to the salary cap:

The cap will increase by no more than 10% per league year in order to avoid a repeat of the 32% spike in 2016. (So, stupid G.M.'s like Olshey don't do something like siging Crabbe and Turner to ridiculous amounts.)

The value of the mid-level exception will receive a 7.5% bump and the room exception will be increased by 30%. It sounds like these will be one-time bumps in 2023/24, separate from the annual changes that are directly linked to how much the salary cap increases.

The luxury tax brackets, previously at $5MM intervals above the tax line, will now increase at the same rate of the salary cap.

A new cap exception will be introduced for second-round picks so that teams no longer need to use cap room or the mid-level exception to give those players salaries worth more than the rookie minimum or deals longer than two years.


Draymond whined about this one...

Second tax apron

The NBA’s current “tax apron” is set a few million dollars above the luxury tax line. For instance, in 2022/23, the tax line is $150,267,000 and the tax apron is $156,983,000. Teams above the tax apron aren’t permitted to acquire players via sign-and-trade, use more than the taxpayer portion of the mid-level exception, or use the bi-annual exception.

In the new CBA, the NBA will implement a second tax apron that will be $17.5MM above the tax line. Teams above that second apron will face a new set of restrictions, as follows:

They won’t have access to the taxpayer mid-level exception.

They won’t be able to trade away first-round picks seven years down the road.

They won’t be allowed to sign free agents on the buyout market.

They won’t be permitted to send out cash in trades.

They won’t be able to take back more salary in a trade than they send out.

One report stated that these changes will be “eased” in, so it’s unclear whether all of these restrictions will be in place right away in 2023/24.

[Kingspoint]

Contract-related changes:

The following changes will apply to player contracts:

Teams will be permitted to carry three players on two-way contracts instead of two.

A player signing a veteran contract extension will be allowed to receive 140% of his previous salary in the first year of a new extension instead of 120%. Our expectation is that players earning less than the NBA’s average salary will be able to make up to 140% (instead of 120%) of the average salary in the first year of a veteran extension, though that has yet to be confirmed.

Players will be permitted to sign rookie scale extensions of up to five years (instead of four) even if the extension is worth less than the maximum salary.

The qualifying offer amount for restricted free agents will increase by 10% over its usual scale amount.

The time a team has to match an offer sheet for a restricted free agent will be reduced from 48 hours to 24 hours.

Teams will no longer face restrictions on how many players on Designated Rookie or Designated Veteran contracts they can carry.


Smoke 'em if you got 'em...

Miscellaneous changes:

Here are a few more details on the new CBA:

Players will no longer be tested for marijuana use.

Players will be allowed to invest in NBA and WNBA franchises via a private equity firm selected by the NBPA.

Players will be allowed to promote or invest in companies involved with sports betting and cannabis. However, any involvement with sports betting companies will require “complete separation” from the gambling component.

Team and league licensing revenue will be added to the NBA’s Basketball Related Income for the first time.

[Kingspoint]

The 19.5-point favorite Minnesota Timberwolves have just suffered the worst recorded NBA ATS defeat since 1995, a catastrophic loss which has dropped them 2 losses behind 8 seed in West with 3 games to play. A scenario which could doom them to the sudden death play-in bracket.

Perez expands further that there’s no game officially in the record books that registers as a bigger ATS defeat.

[by the way], the only reason why it’s 1995 is because that’s as far back as reliable ATS data is made available. who knows truly how long it’s been or if there was ever a bigger upset.


...and the classy homecrowd of Minnesota booed their home team vehemently off the floor at the buzzer.

[texasdave]

Minnesota is a combined 5-10 versus the five teams with the worst records in the league (Pistons, Rockets, Spurs, Hornets and Blazers). If they just turned that record around, which certainly seems a reasonable expectation, they would own home-court advantage in the first round presently.

[SteelSD]

Budenholzer: "We certainly feel that Giannis is the MVP."

That should settle the issue.

Absolutely. Mike Budenholzer's statement that he feels Giannis is the MVP completely settles that Mike Budenholzer feels Giannis is the MVP.

[KoryMac5]

a bit surprised that no contender made a play for McDermott at the trade deadline...you would think his specific skillset (42% from deep) would have helped a contender in the playoffs. Sacramento got a full taste of what he can do when hot last night.

[BuckeyeRed27]

Budenholzer: "We certainly feel that Giannis is the MVP."

That should settle the issue.

He’s the best player. If I had a vote I’d vote for Embiid. I’d probably vote Giannis second before Joker though.