4-21-23 Reds @ Pirates 6:35 PM

[Ron Madden]

Reds
1. Jonathan India (R) 2B
2. TJ Friedl (L) LF
3. Spencer Steer (R) 3B
4. Jake Fraley (L) DH
5. Tyler Stephenson (R) C
6. Wil Myers (R) RF
7. Jason Vosler (L) 1B
8. Nick Senzel (R) CF
9. Jose Barrero (R) SS
P. Graham Ashcraft (R)


Pirates
1. Ke'Bryan Hayes (R) 3B
2. Bryan Reynolds (S) LF
3. Andrew McCutchen (R) DH
4. Carlos Santana (S) 1B
5. Connor Joe (R) RF
6. Jack Suwinski (L) CF
7. Mark Mathias (R) 2B
8. Rodolfo Castro (S) SS
9. Austin Hedges (R) C
P. Mitch Keller (R)

[Bourgeois Zee]

This should be a Red win.

[NebraskaRed]

Big fan of Steer/Fraley back to back and hitting third and fourth.

[GAC]

Should be a solid battle between Ashcraft and Keller. Offense needs to get it going.

[goreds2]

6 PM
79°
RealFeel® 73°
rain drop 51%

7 PM
78°
RealFeel® 75°
rain drop 47%

8 PM
76°
RealFeel® 73°
rain drop 34%

9 PM
71°
RealFeel® 68°
rain drop 34%

https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/pittsburgh/15219/hourly-weather-forecast/1310

[JFLegal]

6 PM
79°
RealFeel® 73°
rain drop 51%

7 PM
78°
RealFeel® 75°
rain drop 47%

8 PM
76°
RealFeel® 73°
rain drop 34%

9 PM
71°
RealFeel® 68°
rain drop 34%

https://www.accuweather.com/en/us/pittsburgh/15219/hourly-weather-forecast/1310

aww **** forgot about that

[JFLegal]

ooooh, looks like this storm will sail just north of pittsburgh. we good.

[NebraskaRed]

Looks clear for this evening.

Not looking so good for tomorrow's game.

[Ron Madden]

Top 1

Jonathan India lines out to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. 1 out

TJ Friedl called out on strikes. 2 outs

Spencer Steer flies out to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. 3 outs

No Score mid 1

[Ron Madden]

Bottom 1

Ke'Bryan Hayes flies out to center fielder Nick Senzel. 1 out

Bryan Reynolds lines out to second baseman Jonathan India. 2 outs

Andrew McCutchen grounds out, third baseman Spencer Steer to first baseman Jason Vosler. 3 outs

No score
After 1

[Ron Madden]

Top 2

Jake Fraley grounds out, third baseman Ke'Bryan Hayes to first baseman Carlos Santana. 1 out

Tyler Stephenson called out on strikes. 2 outs

Wil Myers grounds out, shortstop Rodolfo Castro to first baseman Carlos Santana. 3 outs

No score
Mid 2

[j.u.FAIRFIIELD]

Connor Joe, with a .112 average against the league, says, "wow, it's Cincinnati. Get me a bat!"

[TheBigLebowski]

Holy crap, we really stink

[Tony Cloninger]

It’s Every starter sucks week

[VR]

Did the Reds get rid of their scouting department completely? Just seem wildly ill-prepared for what the opponent puts out there.


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[JFLegal]

ashcraft just mentally melted down there, which you rarely see from him. he's got some tom browning in him (and i don't say that lightly). meaning, a tough, junkyard dog mentality.

but he let up right there. 3-2 pitch against a bad hitter with one on ... and he throws a junk ball in the dirt? on 3-2? so, there's a walk. now we've got runners on first and second.

then he gets flustered and balks. second and third.

bloop hit ... 2 runs.

it's why you can't be nibbling on 3-2 (especially against a hitter who is not dangerous) and why you need to stay focused and cannot balk.

all that being said? i love graham ashcraft and he can play on my team any day.

[Ron Madden]

Bottom 2

Carlos Santana grounds out, first baseman Jason Vosler to pitcher Graham Ashcraft. 1 out

Connor Joe singles on a line drive to left fielder TJ Friedl.

Jack Suwinski walks. Connor Joe to 2nd.

With Mark Mathias batting, Connor Joe advances to 3rd on a balk. Jack Suwinski advances to 2nd on a balk.

Mark Mathias singles on a ground ball to center fielder Nick Senzel. Connor Joe scores. Jack Suwinski scores.

Rodolfo Castro strikes out swinging. 2 outs

Austin Hedges strikes out swinging. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 0
End of 2

[Tony Cloninger]

I wonder why the PC went out to the mound. Now it makes sense. These starters are finding different ways to do everything badly.

[JFLegal]

omg, the reds are making this scrub look like greg maddux

[Kc61]

The pitching is about where I thought it would be. The defense is ordinary, as I figured.

I didn’t figure the team would be so lacking in offensive power.

[JFLegal]

smyly might have missed out on a perfect game, but the reds are trying to see if they can get ... *checks notes* ... something called mitch keller a perfect game.

[Ron Madden]

Top 3

Jason Vosler strikes out swinging. 1 out

Nick Senzel flies out to center fielder Jack Suwinski. 2 outs

Jose Barrero lines out to first baseman Carlos Santana. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 0
Mid 3

[mth123]

omg, the reds are making this scrub look like greg maddux

Wish the Reds had Keller. Makes his starts, keeps his team in the game, pitches some innings. Just what the Reds are missing. He was pretty good in 2021 (4.30 FIP) and better last year (3.88 FIP).

[JFLegal]

why do white guys keep calling him KEY-brian?

do they say LEE-bron?

it's pronounced "Kuh-BRIAN"

[JCM11]

Ashcraft might be our best defensive IF.

[VR]

Ashcraft continues to dazzle on D.


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[Ron Madden]

Bottom 3


Ke'Bryan Hayes grounds out, second baseman Jonathan India to first baseman Jason Vosler. 1 out

Bryan Reynolds lines out to left fielder TJ Friedl. 2 outs

Andrew McCutchen grounds out softly, pitcher Graham Ashcraft to first baseman Jason Vosler. 3 outs

Pit 2
CIN 0
After 3

[JFLegal]

trash from the reds so far tonight. it's early tho

- - - Updated - - -

perfect game is off!

steer it up! HBP

[Kc61]

Over the last 14 days, 533 PAs, Reds have hit 5 homers. Tied with Guardians for fewest in MLB in that period.

[JFLegal]

jeez fraley.

in his defense, no way the first pitch was a strike. it was both low and outside. yet ... called a strike.

[757690]

Big strikezone from the ump tonight. Should be a low scoring game.

[Ron Madden]

Top 4

Jonathan India lines out to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. 1 out

TJ Friedl grounds out, first baseman Carlos Santana to pitcher Mitch Keller. 2 outs

Spencer Steer hit by pitch

Jake Fraley called out on strikes. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 0
Mid 4

[Tony Cloninger]

It’s right down the pipe. Not sure why these Reds hitters are so baffled about.

[JFLegal]

nice job right there from ashcraft. one down

[Ron Madden]

Bottom 4

Carlos Santana grounds out, second baseman Jonathan India to first baseman Jason Vosler. 1 out

Connor Joe doubles (6) on a sharp line drive to left fielder TJ Friedl.

Jack Suwinski strikes out swinging. 2 outs

Mark Mathias grounds out to pitcher Graham Ashcraft. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 0
End of 4

[malcontent]

OK. Connor Joe is unstoppable.

Also, does the expression "protect the plate" in 0-2 and 1-2 counts mean anything to either the hitters, coaches, or manager in this organization?

[Tadasimha]

Past time to string a few hits together

[Tony Cloninger]

Go Go Senzel Go

[JCM11]

A clutch 2 out rbi for Senzel.

Good ab by Barrero to tie the game.

[Kc61]

Senzel hit, but also was robbed on a long drive earlier. Pirates seem to have a good defensive club.

[Ron Madden]

Top 5

Tyler Stephenson singles on a fly ball to right fielder Connor Joe.

Wil Myers called out on strikes. 1 out

Jason Vosler walks. Tyler Stephenson to 2nd.

Nick Senzel singles on a ground ball to right fielder Connor Joe. Tyler Stephenson scores. Jason Vosler to 3rd.

Jose Barrero out on a sacrifice fly to center fielder Jack Suwinski. Jason Vosler scores. 2 outs

Jonathan India singles on a line drive to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. Nick Senzel to 2nd.

TJ Friedl lines out to first baseman Carlos Santana. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 2
Mid 5

[Ron Madden]

Bottom 5

Rodolfo Castro walks

Austin Hedges out on a sacrifice bunt, pitcher Graham Ashcraft to second baseman Jonathan India. Rodolfo Castro to 2nd. 1 out

Ke'Bryan Hayes flies out to right fielder Wil Myers. 2 outs

Andrew McCutchen called out on strikes. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 2
After 5

[TheBigLebowski]

Ashcraft sure competes.

Get him signed to a LTC. He’s shown more than Greene or Lodolo to this point.

Don’t misunderstand - I badly want all 3.

[JCM11]

Fraley is in a miserable slump.

[TheBigLebowski]

Getting a little tired of Jake Failey.

[Ron Madden]

Top 6

Spencer Steer singles on a ground ball to center fielder Jack Suwinski.

Jake Fraley flies out to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. 1 out

Tyler Stephenson flies out to center fielder Jack Suwinski. 2 outs

Wil Myers flies out to right fielder Connor Joe in foul territory. 3 outs

PIT 2
CIN 2
Mid 6

[Tony Cloninger]

Fraley needs to sit for a few days. Not even close anymore.

If Ash had not walked the 8 hitter right off the bat you could have squeezed another inning out of him.

[VR]

Ashcraft pulled again? Bell yanked him last start with 90 some pitches in a cake walk game. The bullpen is TAXED.


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[JCM11]

Connor Haap.

[757690]

Who does Conner Joe think he is? Billy Hall?

[JCM11]

Barrero is awful at SS bring up McLain.

[NebraskaRed]

Barrero has gotten really bad defensively

[Kc61]

Always root for Barrero but I can’t abide high error shortstops. Give me Cozart, even the 2021 Kyle Farmer.

[WrongVerb]

Barrero is awful at SS bring up McLain.

Yep. He's got to make that play. Put him in CF or send him down.

[JCM11]

Stephenson isn't much better behind the plate than Barrero is at SS.

[757690]

It’s as if Barrero bought a monkey’s paw, wished for the ability to not swinging at sliders low and away, and his punishment was it took away his ability to field.

[j.u.FAIRFIIELD]

I find it hard to believe that Connor Joe can barely make the majors without bringing his portfolio of "I hit the Reds really hard".

[Kc61]

It’s as if Barrero bought a monkey’s paw, wished for the ability to not swinging at sliders low and away, and his punishment was it took away his ability to field.

Hasn’t been a particularly good shortstop since he’s been in the major leagues.

[JohnnyBench5]

Doesn't matter...Bell bungles again and there goes the tie game...holy crap is that a broken record...

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[NebraskaRed]

Doesn't matter...Bell bungles again and there goes the tie game...holy crap is that a broken record...

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Bell was playing shortstop?

[TheBigLebowski]

Barrero’s time has come. He’s had enough opportunity to show he belongs, and he doesn’t. He’s just not good enough.

I’m not sure they call up McClain this year, but I’d love to see it.

[JohnnyBench5]

Bungles BP...*

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[Ron Madden]

Bottom 6

Pitching Change: Derek Law replaces Graham Ashcraft

Carlos Santana strikes out swinging. 1 out

Connor Joe singles on a line drive to right fielder Wil Myers.

Wild pitch by pitcher Derek Law. Connor Joe to 2nd.

Jack Suwinski grounds out, second baseman Jonathan India to first baseman Jason Vosler. Connor Joe to 3rd. 2 outs

Mark Mathias reaches on a fielding error by shortstop Jose Barrero. Connor Joe scores.

Mark Mathias steals (1) 2nd base.

Rodolfo Castro walks.

Austin Hedges reaches on a fielder's choice out, left fielder TJ Friedl to catcher Tyler Stephenson. Mark Mathias out at home. Rodolfo Castro to 2nd. 3 outs

PIT 3
CIN 2
End of 6

[757690]

Hasn’t been a particularly good shortstop since he’s been in the major leagues.

I remember seeing him make some outstanding plays, and thinking, if he could just OPS .650, he’d be a decent starting SS. Maybe the stats say something different.

[j.u.FAIRFIIELD]

Barrero has gotten really bad defensively

Was he ever elite? Seems like we were accepting that he was but I never saw that much in the past couple of years. His range is iffy and his routes ... dunno ... I threw a lot of that into the wind because positioning against the shifts is something not everyone handles well. He's playing a conventional SS now.

[Kc61]

Sometimes young shortstops struggle with errors early in their careers. It’s possible Barrero will clean this up over time.

But the expectations were higher for him defensively.

[JohnnyBench5]

Bell was playing shortstop?Don't think so...he is the manager who ALWAYS pulls starter too early...and poof Reds are losing...

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[Tony Cloninger]

Ashcraft pulled again? Bell yanked him last start with 90 some pitches in a cake walk game. The bullpen is TAXED.


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He only had 89 pitches. Not sure if he wore himself out that last inning or what.

- - - Updated - - -

Connor was hitting well over 300 coming into this series. It’s not just the Reds he’s hitting.

I think Bell is tired of Jose’s play as well.

[mth123]

It’s as if Barrero bought a monkey’s paw, wished for the ability to not swinging at sliders low and away, and his punishment was it took away his ability to field.

He was always over-rated as a fielder. I thought his defense was poor last year.

[malcontent]

Who does Conner Joe think he is? Billy Hall?
All revenge for the Reds trading him.

[JCM11]

I remember seeing him make some outstanding plays, and thinking, if he could just OPS .650, he’d be a decent starting SS. Maybe the stats say something different.

He does make the occasional spectacular play, but he misses far too many routine plays.

[Reds Freak]

I've been on the "give Barrero a longer leash" train but I'm ready to get off.

The Pirates have Robert Stephenson? Good lord.

[Ron Madden]

Top 7

Pitching Change: Robert Stephenson replaces Mitch Keller.

Jason Vosler flies out to right fielder Connor Joe. 1 out

Nick Senzel reaches on a throwing error by third baseman Ke'Bryan Hayes.

Jose Barrero grounds out softly, third baseman Ke'Bryan Hayes to first baseman Carlos Santana. Nick Senzel to 2nd. 2 outs

Jonathan India flies out to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. 3 outs

PIT 3
CIN 2
Mid 7

[VR]

Robert Stephenson, because , of course.


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[NebraskaRed]

Robert Stephenson, because , of course.


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I will say that he's been able to hang around longer than I thought he would.

[TheBigLebowski]

Absolute fat pitch

[Tony Cloninger]

Bullpen was doing good but when they actually needed them to possibly win a game. They turn into the reds bullpen.

[TheBigLebowski]

Sir Ian probably shouldn’t be in the majors, and he’s one of our better bullpen arms.

[NebraskaRed]

Gibaut is inconsistent, to say the least. But that was way too many pitches up and in.

If an opposing pitcher was doing that to the Reds, we'd be screaming. He should have been taken out a batter earlier, at least.

[malcontent]

That should do it.

Pirates run for Joe so he can receive the standing O.

[OldFashionedRed]

We're not good. I've actually been pleased with the pitching in general. It's the offense that's abysmal. Co-worker was telling me that he and some guys were talking about how anemic the offense is.

[Tony Cloninger]

We're not good. I've actually been pleased with the pitching in general. It's the offense that's abysmal. Co-worker was telling me that he and some guys were talking about how anemic the offense is.

And like most losing teams they will probably score 7-8 runs tomorrow and the pitching will implode. I feel they are better than last year but they are still a losing team

[Ron Madden]

Bottom 7

Pitching Change: Ian Gibaut replaces Derek Law

Ke'Bryan Hayes grounds out, shortstop Jose Barrero to first baseman Jason Vosler. 1 out

Bryan Reynolds strikes out swinging. 2 outs

Andrew McCutchen walks.

Carlos Santana doubles (7) on a line drive to center fielder Nick Senzel. Andrew McCutchen scores.

Connor Joe walks

Pitching Change: Reiver Sanmartin replaces Ian Gibaut.

Jack Suwinski strikes out swinging. 3 outs

PIT 4
CIN 2
After 7

[mth123]

I've been on the "give Barrero a longer leash" train but I'm ready to get off.

The Pirates have Robert Stephenson? Good lord.

I think his bat needs a longer leash. He's 25 and the Reds need him to be good if it can happen. The older guys are the ones who should take a back seat, but defensively, his best position is CF and its not even particularly a close call. He should primarily play OF and be an IF back-up when needed IMO.

[NebraskaRed]

Santana and Barrero having a botched-play contest.

[NebraskaRed]

And the Reds are winning the "weak grounder" contest.

[TheBigLebowski]

We're not good. I've actually been pleased with the pitching in general. It's the offense that's abysmal. Co-worker was telling me that he and some guys were talking about how anemic the offense is.

Can’t say the pen is good. It’s really not even average.

We have our big 3, and Weaver will absolutely be an upgrade over Overton over time, if he’s given over 5 starts and Overton doesn’t take over for him once Overton is over his “injury.”

But the story is the offense. It’s anemic. They can’t even get out of the yard in GABP. Failey, Steve, India, Myers and Steer have a combined 6 homers. No one could have predicted that.

As I type, Failey grounds out sheepishly again.

[VR]

Time for Fraley to go out in the wilderness for a few weeks again.


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[JohnnyBench5]

Bell...you moron...you pull Ashcraft and poof we suck again. Best thing Reds ownership can do is fire that clown...and then hire a competent manager...we are underachievers to the max...

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[Ron Madden]

Top 8

TJ Friedl singles on a ground ball to second baseman Mark Mathias. TJ Friedl to 2nd. TJ Friedl advances to 2nd, on a throwing error by second baseman Mark Mathias.

Spencer Steer strikes out swinging. 1 out

Jake Fraley grounds out, second baseman Mark Mathias to first baseman Carlos Santana. TJ Friedl to 3rd. 2 outs

Tyler Stephenson called out on strikes. 3 outs

PIT 4
CIN 2
Mid 8

[NebraskaRed]

Reds have had their opportunities, but they just can't take advantage of them.

[TheBigLebowski]

And Stevey strikes out helplessly.

Whoooo. Boy. This season went from mildly entertaining to root canal with a cordless drill in what seems like 45 minutes.

[Tony Cloninger]

Jake is pulling himself right to the bench. They are pitching you away. Drive it the other way. Drive he said.

[malcontent]

Steer and Stephenson each take two sinkers to put themselves in 0-2 holes before striking out.

Stephenson with Friedl on 3B. Just not smart hitting. Coaching MIA.

[NebraskaRed]

I wasn't expecting a ton of power out of this lineup, but I also wasn't expecting this either.

[OldFashionedRed]

And like most losing teams they will probably score 7-8 runs tomorrow and the pitching will implode. I feel they are better than last year but they are still a losing team

I agree with you. They are definitely better than last year (sadly I've not seen the team play live because YT got rid of its MLB package).

[Ron Madden]

Bottom 8

Mark Mathias grounds out, third baseman Spencer Steer to first baseman Jason Vosler. 1 out

Rodolfo Castro flies out to center fielder Nick Senzel. 2 outs

Austin Hedges lines out sharply to second baseman Jonathan India. 3 outs

PIT 4
CIN 2
End of 8

[Redsfan6272]

Are the Reds the only team in MLB with a #4 hitter with zero homeruns?

[OldFashionedRed]

Steer and Stephenson each take two sinkers to put themselves in 0-2 holes before striking out.

Stephenson with Friedl on 3B. Just not smart hitting. Coaching MIA.

Is Stephenson's issue that he's coming off injuries? I thought he was supposed to be a really strong hitter.

[NebraskaRed]

Pirates are definitely overperforming, especially with the pitching. They're better than the Reds, but not by that much.

[TheBigLebowski]

Bell...you moron...you pull Ashcraft and poof we suck again. Best thing Reds ownership can do is fire that clown...and then hire a competent manager...we are underachievers to the max...

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There is nothing the guy can do. I’m no Bell fan, but we have to be realistic. He has a terrible team.

[Kc61]

In 1963, if you had three good starters, they pitched on shorter rest and worked 8-9 innings.

In 2023 , if you have three good starters, they pitch every fifth day and work 5-7 innings.

The innings coverage is lighter, a staff today requires a lot of depth. That’s why I never bought into the Big Three gives the Reds a good staff.

[NebraskaRed]

Save us, Jason Vosler.

[TheBigLebowski]

Remember that one game Wil Myers looked like an MVP?

- - - Updated - - -

Bednar might be the best closer in the game.

[malcontent]

And Stevey strikes out helplessly.

Whoooo. Boy. This season went from mildly entertaining to root canal with a cordless drill in what seems like 45 minutes.
You must have missed the expletive-laden Bell tirade. Fired this team right up.

[Redsfan6272]

Reds lose again

[Ron Madden]

Top 9

Pitching Change: David Bednar replaces Colin Holderman.

Wil Myers flies out to left fielder Bryan Reynolds. 1 out

Jason Vosler strikes out swinging. 2 outs

Nick Senzel pops out to catcher Austin Hedges in foul territory. 3 outs

PIT 4
CIN 2
Final Score

[TheBigLebowski]

Boy oh boy - this team is terrible. Just wretched.

[NebraskaRed]

Remember that one game Wil Myers looked like an MVP?

- - - Updated - - -

Bednar might be the best closer in the game.

Remember when Vosler looked like a major league hitter for like 4 days?

[Tony Cloninger]

I agree with you. They are definitely better than last year (sadly I've not seen the team play live because YT got rid of its MLB package).

I actually got it this year. Too cheap to pass up. At least I have a choice not to watch.

[Redsfan6272]

Yep dugout has the look of "oh well we aren't supposed to win for 5 more years" look.

[malcontent]

Remember that one game Wil Myers looked like an MVP?
I always will. Career game.

[Ron Madden]

Box Score

https://www.mlb.com/gameday/reds-vs-pirates/2023/04/21/718492/live/box

[RollyInRaleigh]

Looks like they are going to be all but out of it in May again. A once proud franchise turned into the laughingstock of the National League.


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[Redsfan6272]

Pirates are definitely overperforming, especially with the pitching. They're better than the Reds, but not by that much.

Pirates actually look way better than the Reds. Sad

[malcontent]

Remember when Vosler looked like a major league hitter for like 4 days?
Yes, yes. It is true that Myers isn't blocking anyone, I'll admit.

[Redsfan6272]

Pirates can't wait to get to the ball park tomorrow with BP pitching Cessa! ugh!

[TheBigLebowski]

Remember when Vosler looked like a major league hitter for like 4 days?

Yeah, he fell off a cliff. Was foolhardy to think we found another Drury.

[TNRED]

Tommy Thrall says that Cessa will go tomorrow and try to stop the bleeding. The problem is that instead of being armed with a bandage, he will have a butcher knife.

[JCM11]

The Reds lack of left hand hitting is pretty stunning. Other than Friedl they've got nothing. Benson flopped, Vossler is not MLB material, Joey may not recover, and Fraley looks lost.

[NebraskaRed]

I'm hearing reports that the Castellinis have decided to sell the Viking helmet.

[TNRED]

Looks like they are going to be all but out of it in May again. A once proud franchise turned into the laughingstock of the National League.


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The good news is that they are no longer a laughingstock. People now just divert their stare to hide their look of pity.

[ComputerHand]

Looks like Vegas is off the board but maybe the Reds can put in a bid for Tunica.

[Redsfan6272]

Yeah, he fell off a cliff. Was foolhardy to think we found another Drury.

I miss Drury.. he at least was a good hitter here

- - - Updated - - -

Sick of watching Bell's after every loss press conference

[JohnnyBench5]

This team is a s@&t show. Bell must go...he is the definition of insanity. Try somebody else...anybody else.

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[Cadenza]

The Reds lack of left hand hitting is pretty stunning. Other than Friedl they've got nothing. Benson flopped, Vossler is not MLB material, Joey may not recover, and Fraley looks lost.

The mighty reds have fallen again. Any bets when and if the reds win another game?

[VR]

I'm hearing reports that the Castellinis have decided to sell the Viking helmet.

Highlight of the night right there folks.

Listed as “ VERY lightly used”


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[TheBigLebowski]

Highlight of the night right there folks.

Listed as “ VERY lightly used”


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“Where else ya gonna get one? Swedenorwayland? I don’t think that’s even a country anymore!”

[mth123]

Why are people surprised they are bad? They told us plainly that they were punting and waiting for prospects who haven't arrived yet. Run any business with a bunch of temps and it performs poorly. That is what is happening here.

[LeatherPants]

Why are people surprised they are bad? They told us plainly that they were punting and waiting for prospects who haven't arrived yet. Run any business with a bunch of temps and it performs poorly. That is what is happening here.

Replacing 30 starts by Castillo and Mahle with absolutely nothing sure isn't working out.

[mth123]

Replacing 30 starts by Castillo and Mahle with absolutely nothing sure isn't working out.

Agreed. They are using temps. My frustration with this season isn't because they are bad. Its because they are wasting the opportunity to sort through potential future answers and playing guys we know aren't answers instead. No value in Senzel, Newman, Myers, Maile, Vosler, weaver, Cessa, Gibaut, Law, Herget, Cruz, Farmer... whether they perfrom or whether they don't, they'll be gone and whatever they did here will have no bearing on how this all turns out.

If you are going to bring in stopgaps, can't they at least be young enough to possibly become something if they do play well? Isn't that what rebuilding is about, finding solutions to the positions that don't have any? A bunch of middle aged minor leaguers are dead ends. They lead to nothing.

[JohnnyBench5]

Why are people surprised they are bad? They told us plainly that they were punting and waiting for prospects who haven't arrived yet. Run any business with a bunch of temps and it performs poorly. That is what is happening here.Years of temp labor and hopefully temp manager...sad.

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[Ky Fried Redleg]

I'm really starting to doubt that I will ever see another championship Reds team. Makes me sad. Still have some great memories from the 70's, though.

[cumberlandreds]

I'm really starting to doubt that I will ever see another championship Reds team. Makes me sad. Still have some great memories from the 70's, though.

Glad I grew up in the 70s. At least I can say I saw the Reds at their zenith. I can also sa I saw them at their worst.

[TheBigLebowski]

Why are people surprised they are bad? They told us plainly that they were punting and waiting for prospects who haven't arrived yet. Run any business with a bunch of temps and it performs poorly. That is what is happening here.

I don’t think anyone is surprised at their record, but the way they got there - terrible hitting, bad defense, a bullpen so inherently flawed and feckless - is hard to stomach.

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I'm really starting to doubt that I will ever see another championship Reds team. Makes me sad. Still have some great memories from the 70's, though.

People who were born this year will never see another Reds World Series win.

[757690]

I don’t think anyone is surprised at their record, but the way they got there - terrible hitting, bad defense, a bullpen so inherently flawed and feckless - is hard to stomach.

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People who were born this year will never see another Reds World Series win.

Since 1995, the first year after the World Series was cancelled, the same 15 teams have won the World Series. All but the Marlins, Cardinals and Royals have been the mega market teams.

So you could say that about around half the teams in MLB, the bottom half in terms of market size and payroll.

[GAC]

Agreed. They are using temps. My frustration with this season isn't because they are bad. Its because they are wasting the opportunity to sort through potential future answers and playing guys we know aren't answers instead. No value in Senzel, Newman, Myers, Maile, Vosler, weaver, Cessa, Gibaut, Law, Herget, Cruz, Farmer... whether they perfrom or whether they don't, they'll be gone and whatever they did here will have no bearing on how this all turns out.

If you are going to bring in stopgaps, can't they at least be young enough to possibly become something if they do play well? Isn't that what rebuilding is about, finding solutions to the positions that don't have any? A bunch of middle aged minor leaguers are dead ends. They lead to nothing.

According to the "plan", there's going to be more pain (which Red's fan have become accustomed to), and it doesn't matter if they lose 100 games again as long as they're seeing progress with their young prospects. While their farm system may get a good rating, IMO, they've put way too much pressure on that system to produce their winner. There are way too many weaknesses/holes on this team, when one goes around the horn, and you're not going to replace them all via your farm system. Look at how hard they're having finding/developing a SS. OF? They have two 27 year-old "rookies" in the OF in Friedl and Fraley. Impressed with Friedl (CF) so far, not so sure on Fraley, but it's a young season. But do others see these two in the OF as part of the solution? I'm not as informed as others on this subject, but what do they have, as far as promising OFers go, in their farm system that is close to ready?

I think our INF is in worse shape (jmo), but we have prospect(s), supposedly, close to ready that will fill those holes. I hope so, because you only have so long a window.

Some have held up the Astro's model saying the Reds may be trying to mimic it. Won't argue that point if true. I guess we'll just have to be patient a little longer to see if this management has finally hit onto something.

But I grew up listening to the Reds in the 60s .... so I'm not getting any younger. ;)

[mth123]

According to the "plan", there's going to be more pain (which Red's fan have become accustomed to), and it doesn't matter if they lose 100 games again as long as they're seeing progress with their young prospects. While their farm system may get a good rating, IMO, they've put way too much pressure on that system to produce their winner. There are way too many weaknesses/holes on this team, when one goes around the horn, and you're not going to replace them all via your farm system. Look at how hard they're having finding/developing a SS. OF? They have two 27 year-old "rookies" in the OF in Friedl and Fraley. Impressed with Friedl (CF) so far, not so sure on Fraley, but it's a young season. But do others see these two in the OF as part of the solution? I'm not as informed as others on this subject, but what do they have, as far as promising OFers go, in their farm system that is close to ready?

I think our INF is in worse shape (jmo), but we have prospect(s), supposedly, close to ready that will fill those holes. I hope so, because you only have so long a window.

Some have held up the Astro's model saying the Reds may be trying to mimic it. Won't argue that point if true. I guess we'll just have to be patient a little longer to see if this management has finally hit onto something.

But I grew up listening to the Reds in the 60s .... so I'm not getting any younger. ;)

I think Friedl and Fraley are examples of the younger stopgaps I'm talking about. They seem to play well enough that they can be part of the solution as role players and are younbg enough to do it through the Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft era. Fraley should probably be a platoon LF/DH who hits somewhere around 6th in the batting order. Think Bernie Carbo though probably not as good as 1970 Bernie Carbo but probably won't bottom out due to off field issues the way Carbo did either. Friedl can be a solid guy who gets on base, runs well, can play the OF and maybe he's the CF. CF is a black hole all over baseball these days. If Friedl turns out to be the every day CF hitting 8th or 9th and giving the team a second lead-off guy at the bottom of the order, they could do worse. Ideally Friedl would be in LF and Fraley would be the DH IMO. The team is missing the middle of the order. India is a good lead-off guy. Steer is a solid 6 or 7 hole guy. Stephenson is probably a 2 hole hitter. They are waiting for De La Cruz, Encarnacion and Marte to come up and fill the middle of the order. This team needs a solid middle of the rotation starter who can provide quality innings, 2 or 3 late inning relievers and a major masher who can play RF from outside the organization to bring it all together. I think the prospects can fill the 5th starter, middle relief and the rest of the positions. They may need another Catcher if Stephenson is only going to be a short side of a tandem most of the time.

[Kc61]

If somebody is a stop gap, by definition, he’s not a long term asset. Emphasis on the age and ability of stop gaps is misplaced. They don’t matter much, they are fungible long shots who probably will fall away. They are needed because the Reds must field a major league team. A few intriguing long shots, fine.

What matters with the Reds is the acquisition and development of players with a serious chance to be part of a contender in a few years, whether currently in the majors or minors

[GAC]

I think Friedl and Fraley are examples of the younger stopgaps I'm talking about. They seem to play well enough that they can be part of the solution as role players and are younbg enough to do it through the Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft era. Fraley should probably be a platoon LF/DH who hits somewhere around 6th in the batting order. Think Bernie Carbo though probably not as good as 1970 Bernie Carbo but probably won't bottom out due to off field issues the way Carbo did either. Friedl can be a solid guy who gets on base, runs well, can play the OF and maybe he's the CF. CF is a black hole all over baseball these days. If Friedl turns out to be the every day CF hitting 8th or 9th and giving the team a second lead-off guy at the bottom of the order, they could do worse. Ideally Friedl would be in LF and Fraley would be the DH IMO. The team is missing the middle of the order. India is a good lead-off guy. Steer is a solid 6 or 7 hole guy. Stephenson is probably a 2 hole hitter. They are waiting for De La Cruz, Encarnacion and Marte to come up and fill the middle of the order. This team needs a solid middle of the rotation starter who can provide quality innings, 2 or 3 late inning relievers and a major masher who can play RF from outside the organization to bring it all together. I think the prospects can fill the 5th starter, middle relief and the rest of the positions. They may need another Catcher if Stephenson is only going to be a short side of a tandem most of the time.

It will be interesting to see who wins the SS "battle" between Cruz and Marte. Will Cruz be better suited for 3B? I could be wrong, but I see CES more as a 1bman (or DH). And I'm not so sold on India at 2B. Catching is such a physically demanding position I wouldn't mind building a good duo.

Anyone seeing either Abbott or Williamson possibly getting a call-up for this rotation at some point?

[mth123]

It will be interesting to see who wins the SS "battle" between Cruz and Marte. Will Cruz be better suited for 3B? I could be wrong, but I see CES more as a 1bman (or DH). And I'm not so sold on India at 2B. Catching is such a physically demanding position I wouldn't mind building a good duo.

Anyone seeing either Abbott or Williamson possibly getting a call-up for this rotation at some point?

Marte has already moved to 3B. McLain and De La Cruz are the main options now and it may be Arroyo long term. I think a call up right now might be rushing McLain, but something needs to be done about the IF defense and McLain at SS might be the best option right now. They could play Newman at SS and stick Barrero in the IF/OF back-up mix with Senzel. Barrero is at least decent enough at SS to be a back-up there and hasn't had the 1100 PAs of failure at age 28, which I think gives him the edge over Senzel. For now, if I were king, I'd probably line-up with Newman at SS, Fraley in LF and Friedl in CF against RHP. Against lefty pitching, I'd slide Friedl to LF, stick Barrero in CF and sit Fraley. India, Steer and Myers seem locked into those spots and how they deal with the 3 headed Catching monster might change things.