Reds Acquire Gabe White

[TeamDunn]

Just announced on the Reds wrap up.

[CougarQuest]

for Charles Manning.

[Mr Red]

Gabe White for Charlie Manning...wanted to be the first to post

[Mr Red]

ok...it was a three way tie :)

[LvJ]

Erm, why? He's been awful this season.

[Reds Fanatic]

Erm, why? He's been awful this season.
Well then he will fit in well with this bullpen

[SirFelixCat]

I think we gave up way too much in Manning for White...but White HAS to be better than Matthews.

That being said, Claussen would look great out of our pen to start out...Sanchez anyone? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[butlerbulldogs]

great pickup, he is better than Matthews or Norton

[Tony's Royals]

we lost out on rickey stone tonight and kc papers says reds are looking at curtis leskanic. Hummm i would rahter have stone and then curtis imo.

[Kc61]

Was White traded for Manning last year?

Every time I saw White pitch this year he got bombed.

Maybe the Yankees want a closer with 27 saves too.

[Buckeye33]

Great pickup?!!!

This guy has an 8.27 ERA in 20.2 IP and has given up 33 H and has a WHIP of 1.92.

Unless Gullett rounds him into last years pitcher, this is anything but a GREAT pickup.

[Big Klu]

Isn't Manning who we got for White last season?

[LvJ]

Matthews: 3.95 ERA
Norton: 4.33 ERA
White: 8.27 ERA

Much better than those two. Yep.

[Reds Fanatic]

Even though he has not had a great year so far this year. I think this is an improvement for the bullpen. Put in White and get rid of Reith and that would be an improvement.

[Mainspark]

Reds also receive cash, player to be named later.

[Buckeye33]

No way the Reds will carry 3 lefties.

I say you send out Norton and Mathews and bring up Sanchez to go along with White.

[smith288]

Ill calmly wait and see what White does in a Reds uni but for right now...

:eek:

[Buckeye33]

Reds also receive cash, player to be named later.

Damnit! I thought Bowden was gone.

We got another player named "cash" and another player named "to be named later".

[SirFelixCat]

Again I say, where is Sanchez?

[Big Klu]

No way the Reds will carry 3 lefties.

I say you send out Norton and Mathews and bring up Sanchez to go along with White.

Norton has had two straight excellent outings.

[Marc D]

Did I hear the Reds got cash?? Now it makes sense. :(

[Reds Fanatic]

No way the Reds will carry 3 lefties.

I say you send out Norton and Mathews and bring up Sanchez to go along with White.

I forgot about Norton. I have a feeling that is who will go. I think White will take Norton's place.

[Rocket_Fuel]

White always pitches well in Cincinnati. When the Reds got Gabe back from Colorado he had an ERA of 9 and he was immediately effective when he got to Cincinnati so I wouldn't judge a book by its cover.

[Aronchis]

Yawn move to me, another former player who is on the downswing, but the PTNL is interesting.

[LvJ]

Well I guess it isn't that bad now we get a PTBNL and some cash.

[Rocket_Fuel]

What is O'Brien problem though, why didn't he bring up Sanchez and at least SEE if he would help. Maybe Sanchez would have helped and he wouldn't have needed to go get White.

[remdog]

Well, it is a move. After all the complaining about OB sitting on his hands.....

Maybe it's a start of other things....

Rem

[Unassisted]

I don't love this deal, but I like it. We needed a change in the pitching staff.

[smith288]

It certainly isnt a "give up" move... But it is a cheap move. What is next? Trying to bring back Heredia and Sullivan for nostalgia?

[SirFelixCat]

WIth the beloved "cash" and the PTBNL, it at least is interesting. Honestly, it DOES beat doing nothing....

[jfar23]

Whats the word on Charlie Manning? Is he a loss?

[snowstorm]

Reith banished to the minors?

That's what I thought I heard on Channel 5. Can anyone confirm this?

[toledodan]

It certainly isnt a "give up" move... But it is a cheap move. What is next? Trying to bring back Heredia and Sullivan for nestalgia?



the sad thing is they might pick up sullivan. :help:

[SirFelixCat]

Reith banished to the minors?

That's what I thought I heard on Channel 5. Can anyone confirm this?

We can hope, eh?


And as far as Manning goes, solid start this season, and a good friend of DMos, but has scuffled since the first month or so. Others can add more I'm sure.

[Puffy]

I can't believe people are complaining about this - Gabe White can pitch, sure he isn't having a good year, but Gully and Hume and White have always worked well together, and White inspires much more confidence than Norton or Matthews.

And if the Reds pick up Leskanic, even better. Guys with proven track records AND time with Hume in the BP is always a good thing.

[Az. Reds Fan]

According to this, we give up a player and cash to the Yankees for White.

Can this be right?

Cincinnati Reds - Acquired pitcher Gabe White from the New York
Yankees for pitcher Charlie Manning, a player to be named and
cash considerations

[CougarQuest]

Isn't Manning who we got for White last season?


The trade was kind of screwed up. Oringinally we got Manning with Claussen and money last year for Boone and Gabe White. Then it was split up, we got Manning, Claussen, $400,000 for Boone, the we got either a PTBNL or cash for White. I believe it turned out we got Cash at the end of the season for White.

[Cedric]

If we gave up Charlie Manning, Ptbn and cash for Gabe White, Dan O'brien needs to be fired.

[M2]

Was White traded for Manning last year?

Yes they were. This is more like prisoner exchange than a trade.

And that had better be a lot of cash, Gabe's still owed $1+ million this season. If the Reds are paying most of it, I'm once again not impressed by DanO's spending decisions.

Side prediction, Richie Gardner's heading to Chattanooga in the very near future (perhaps tomorrow).

[Chip R]

White always pitches well in Cincinnati. When the Reds got Gabe back from Colorado he had an ERA of 9 and he was immediately effective when he got to Cincinnati so I wouldn't judge a book by its cover.
That's what I'm thinking. I also think this is a shot across the bow of the Cards. We'll be playing them a bunch in the next month and having 3 lefties in there could neutralize Edmonds and Renteria. I don't see what the big fuss is about. Everyone complained when Gabe was traded and no one liked Manning. Now we got Gabe back and Manning is gone and everyone is complaining again.

[Reds Fanatic]

It is Reith that is designated for assignment. I think White is a big improvement over Reith who has been a disaster all year.

[Tony's Royals]

time to move on curtis leskanic now-he has been thriwing better since his bad start.93 plus fastball and good slider,

[SirFelixCat]

It is Reith that is designated for assignment. I think White is a big improvement over Reith who has been a disaster all year.

Agreed...but which is it...did we get White, cash, and PTBNL? Or did we give Manning, cash, and a PTBNL????

[Rocket_Fuel]

Exactly ChipR, Gabe is a veteran, he knows the National League so it shouldn't be that big of an adjustment. What I don't understand is that people are complaining "Please don't go get White, Heredia and Sullivan"! Hello, haven't people been saying all year that if we had last year's bullpen we would be in first place? Last year's bullpen including Gabe White and Scott Sullivan. If the Reds turn around and get Scott Sullivan as well, assuming he's healthy, all the better. Sullivan, White, Jones and Reidling are a good anchor in the bullpen. There are some other guys available so please shore up the pen.

[M2]

According to this, we give up a player and cash to the Yankees for White.

Can this be right?

Cincinnati Reds - Acquired pitcher Gabe White from the New York
Yankees for pitcher Charlie Manning, a player to be named and
cash considerations

I choose to believe that's a mistake made by some editorial assistant. The Reds can't be giving up cash in addition to dropping an extra mil on White, surely they're smarter than that.

Aren't they?

[SirFelixCat]

Exactly ChipR, Gabe is a veteran, he knows the National League so it shouldn't be that big of an adjustment. What I don't understand is that people are complaining "Please don't go get White, Heredia and Sullivan"! Hello, haven't people been saying all year that if we had last year's bullpen we would be in first place? Last year's bullpen including Gabe White and Scott Sullivan. If the Reds turn around and get Scott Sullivan as well, assuming he's healthy, all the better. Sullivan, White, Jones and Reidling are a good anchor in the bullpen. There are some other guys available so please shore up the pen.


Leskanic would be a great BP pickup IMO.

[CTA513]

If we gave up Charlie Manning, Ptbn and cash for Gabe White, Dan O'brien needs to be fired.

The way I heard on the news is that the Reds go Gabe at PTBN & cash for Manning.

[SirFelixCat]

ESPN.com trans. says we gave up Manning, PTBNL, and cash for White.


I pray not.

[buckeyenut]

Did I hear the Reds got cash?? Now it makes sense. :(

Sometimes people amaze me. You do realize we just picked a major leaguer, not dealt one. A guy with a recent history of being very good.

The transaction from the wire reads as follows.

Acquired pitcher Gabe White from the New York Yankees for pitcher Charlie Manning, a player to be named and cash considerations;

So we apparently GAVE CASH, unless the wire got it wrong.

White has been awful as a yankee so apparently we are to some extent undoing what we did with this deal last year.

Now, according to ESPN, White has been in 24 ballgames this year. He has allowed runs in 7 of them. Just a little over a month ago, his ERA was as low as 2.13. So the guy has just had a bad month. I don't think it is necessarily a sign he is a bad pitcher.

I think this is a good pickup. I think we badly need to send out norton. In fact, I would like to see us use this as an opportunity to really mix things up a little. Send out Norton, Reith, and Valentin and bring up Myette or Sanchez and Miller. And I would also insert Pena into the everyday lineup until Kearns is back let him see what he can learn against righties.

I really like this move. I like where this team is at. And I hope Gabe regains his form and is the same pitcher we saw last year.

[Rocket_Fuel]

Leskanic would be a great BP pickup IMO.

I hope the Reds are eyeing him and do everything they can to get him. I'm actually more concerned with the bullpen then the starting pitching.

[halcyon]

SURELY, we're not giving the forsaken Yankees cash. My head might explode.

[SirFelixCat]

Now, posted on rotoworld.com:


Reds acquired LHP Gabe White and cash from the Yankees for LHP Charlie Manning and a player
to be named. The Yankees opted to give on White after he posted an
8.27 ERA in 24 relief appearances this season. He'll probably go
back to being a useful reliever in Cincinnati.

[CTA513]

Gabe White stats with Reds.

2002 with Reds
ERA 2.98
IP 54.1
H 49
R 19
ER 18
HR 3
BB 10
SO 41


2003 with Reds
ERA 3.93
IP 34.1
H 36
R 15
ER 15
HR 5
BB 6
SO 23

[SYCMiniBus]

I imagine the PTBNL will be dependant on how White does and you can count on the fact it wont be anyone worth anything. This is a good move, and heck if you can get Sully and Heredia back wonderful. We had a very good pen last year. If you had those 3, Jones, Gravey, Reidling, and Norton or Matthews that is a lights out pen. It wont happen but it would be nice.

[CougarQuest]

Reith: May 7.36 ERA in 11 IP. June 9.00 ERA in 7 IP

Matthews: May 4.15 ERA in 4.1 IP. June 2.89 ERA in 9.1 IP.

Norton: May 1.64 ERA in 11 IP. June 3.86 ERA in 9.1 IP.

Reidling: May 2.20 ERA in 16.1 IP. June 11.42 ERA in 8.2 IP.

Jones: May 3.94 ERA in 16 IP. June 1.86 ERA in 9.2 IP.

White: May 8.18 ERA in 11 IP. June 20.25 ERA in 2.2 IP.

[Rocket_Fuel]

I think people are mistaken, I'm pretty sure the report said that the Reds received cash from the Yankees not vice versa. That rotoworld report is true I believe.

[WVRedsFan]

If we gave up Charlie Manning, Ptbn and cash for Gabe White, Dan O'brien needs to be fired.

Yes...and folks think this is a good deal? A situational lefty for all of that? Wake up people.

[reds1990]

the sad thing is they might pick up sullivan. :help:

It seems that everyone loves to chime in negatively on a player. You know, it demonstrates our "knowledge" of the game. Seriously, Sullivan was lights out for awhile. Any of you guys remember that? He had an injury, I believe, and seemed really hittable after that. Sullivan is one of those sub-marine pitchers, which I think throws hitters off.

[reds1990]

Reith: May 7.36 ERA in 11 IP. June 9.00 ERA in 7 IP

Matthews: May 4.15 ERA in 4.1 IP. June 2.89 ERA in 9.1 IP.

Norton: May 1.64 ERA in 11 IP. June 3.86 ERA in 9.1 IP.

Reidling: May 2.20 ERA in 16.1 IP. June 11.42 ERA in 8.2 IP.

Jones: May 3.94 ERA in 16 IP. June 1.86 ERA in 9.2 IP.

White: May 8.18 ERA in 11 IP. June 20.25 ERA in 2.2 IP.

How come you left out Graves? Are you only talking about relief pitchers and not closers?

[CTA513]

"June 18, 2004
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The New York Yankees traded struggling left-hander Gabe White back to the Cincinnati Reds on Friday for minor league pitcher Charlie Manning, a player to be named and cash. "

[toledodan]

we got white and cash for manning and ptbn.

[Rocket_Fuel]

Yes...and folks think this is a good deal? A situational lefty for all of that? Wake up people.

I'm awake, and I don't see a situational lefty on the Reds staff right now so you better go get one.

[WVRedsFan]

It seems that everyone loves to chime in negatively on a player. You know, it demonstrates our "knowledge" of the game. Seriously, Sullivan was lights out for awhile. Any of you guys remember that? He had an injury, I believe, and seemed really hittable after that. Sullivan is one of those sub-marine pitchers, which I think throws hitters off.

Sully's got a flashy 3.60 ERA, so maybe he's back. Of course reliever ERA's are not all that. Look at Graves' ERA. Not bad, but the end result is much worse.

Bringing back old players when they lose their value is folly. We need to look to the future. Giving up young players for an old one only works when the young one is Joe Blow and the old one is Barry Bonds...

[M2]

Sometimes people amaze me. You do realize we just picked a major leaguer, not dealt one. A guy with a recent history of being very good.

I don't mind the Reds rolling the dice on White, I just don't think they ought to be paying seven figures out of what is surely a small reserve fund to do it.

If the Yankees are paying most or all of White's contract, then I don't mind the deal. I don't have a lot of hope it will make much difference, but I don't mind it. My sole concern is that the Reds not spend themselves out of something far more attractive down the road.

[CougarQuest]

How come you left out Graves? Are you only talking about relief pitchers and not closers?
Yes.

But just for you ;)

Graves: May 1.96 ERA in 18.1 IP. June: 5.41 ERA in 8.1 IP

[Redny]

Per ESPN transactions - Reds get White, a PTBNL, and cash for Manning. Looks good to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions

[Rocket_Fuel]

Bringing back old players when they lose their value is folly. We need to look to the future. Giving up young players for an old one only works when the young one is Joe Blow and the old one is Barry Bonds...

You can't have it both ways. You can't blast management for not going out and getting help and then complaining that the help is "too old". If you want to make a playoff push you have to get veterans in here. Also, Manning isn't one of O'Brien's "guys". Maybe O'Brien has some guys he wants to put in Manning's spot. Either way I like this White deal. People hated that the Reds tore the bullpen up last year and now don't want some of the same players from that same bullpen. You get Gabe White in here and Sullivan and Leskanic and I think that would go a long way towards shoring up this bullpen.

[alloverjr]

Yawn move to me ...

Couldn't agree more. I like White. And on a better club could really prove to be a valuable part, but this team is not contending with or without him. Too many holes. Until they address their need in the rotation, I believe they're just spinning their wheels. Wake me when they trade a Casey or Kearns type player for a couple young stud pitchers.

[CougarQuest]

Interesting that major sources claim completely different things on the "Cash/PTBNL" situation. I can't see the Reds paying cash on top of taking on White's salary, with the pitching results that White has demonstrated so far this year.

[Phhhl]

This club has been crying poor mouth for so long people are buying into it. White might not make a bit of difference, but his salary is chump change for a major league baseball team that just drew 100,000 ppl for a three game series against the Montreal * Expos. There is no downside to this deal, even if Gabe blows up. Heck, he could end up closing games before the year is over. He has been inconsistent throughout his career, but when he is right he can be very good. More often than not, the starters are giving us a chance to win ball games. Hopefully this is the first of a few more moves to fix the situation in the pen.

[Rocket_Fuel]

Couldn't agree more. I like White. And on a better club could really prove to be a valuable part, but this team is not contending with or without him. Too many holes. Until they address their need in the rotation, I believe they're just spinning their wheels. Wake me when they trade a Casey or Kearns type player for a couple young stud pitchers.

The Reds are 3 games out of first and in first in the Wild Card, that's a contending team where I come from.

[CougarQuest]

36-year-old RHRP Leskanic makes $1.25M this year.

This year he's been in 19 games, pitching 15.1 innings, giving up 23 hits, 16 runs, 5 HR, 14 BB, with 15 K's. He has 2 saves with 3 blown saves. He has a 2.36 WHIP! Batters are hitting .324 against him! He has an 8.04 ERA.

[Rocket_Fuel]

Wow, I didn't realize he was THAT bad. I think I'll pass on Leskanic. :lol:

Now get me Sullivan, yeah if we can get Scott Sullivan I think our bullpen would be alright!

[Rocket_Fuel]

By the way, one thing about Sullivan, I think he has the mindset and the stuff to be a closer. I'd like to have Sullivan just to be a closer and use Graves and Reidling and Jones as setup guys.

[Puffy]

36-year-old RHRP Leskanic makes $1.25M this year.

This year he's been in 19 games, pitching 15.1 innings, giving up 23 hits, 16 runs, 5 HR, 14 BB, with 15 K's. He has 2 saves with 3 blown saves. He has a 2.36 WHIP! Batters are hitting .324 against him! He has an 8.04 ERA.

Don't care - let Hume and Gullet have at him. He has been effective in the past and those are the type guys that the Reds pitching braintrust thrives on.

[Matt700wlw]

Couldn't agree more. I like White. And on a better club could really prove to be a valuable part, but this team is not contending with or without him. Too many holes. Until they address their need in the rotation, I believe they're just spinning their wheels. Wake me when they trade a Casey or Kearns type player for a couple young stud pitchers.

Not contending? What team are you watching?

This team is in 2nd place and first place in the Wildcard right now..will it last, I don't know, but making moves like Gabe White can be a big help in a shaky bullpen.

Gabe White had success here....now he's back -- let's see what happens.

It appears the FO is doing something to show they actually are trying for once....something we've been wanting for a long while

[M2]

Hey Matt, any chance the on-air folks at your station could start using their influence to get Reds fans to stuff the All-Star ballot for a few of the team's higher profile players?

The only reason why Barry Larkin isn't leading the NL SS ballot is because Astros and Cardinals fans have swarmed in support of their guys. Reds fans have got to retaliate.

We need the airwaves, baby.

[reds1990]

By the way, one thing about Sullivan, I think he has the mindset and the stuff to be a closer. I'd like to have Sullivan just to be a closer and use Graves and Reidling and Jones as setup guys.

Yeap, sounds good to me ! Sully has always gone after hitters, would handle the pressure much better than Graves. Danny would be a great mop-up reliever.

[Bigg Red Smokey]

Not contending? What team are you watching?

This team is in 2nd place and first place in the Wildcard right now..will it last, I don't know, but making moves like Gabe White can be a big help in a shaky bullpen.

Gabe White had success here....now he's back -- let's see what happens.

It appears the FO is doing something to show they actually are trying for once....something we've been wanting for a long while

A couple of points I would like to make on this thread.
1. i am very pleased with this trade. white has always been an eexcellent pitcher here and has always been nails against lefties.
2. Sully would be a great pickup imo. He always struggles early , and after it warms up his "frisbees" are virtually impossible for righties to handle.
3. Leskanic imo would be a serious upgrade over Reith and or Norton. He seemed to be a reliable pitcher for the Brew Crew. I think Hume could work out the kinks.
4. I AM VERY HAPPY TO SEE THE REDS FINALLY MAKE A MOVE THAT AT LEAST SYMBOLIZES A MOVE TO HELP THESE VETS WIN. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THIS MOVE. THESE GUYS NEED TO FEEL LIKE MNGMT IS GOING TO HELP THEM. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[BRETTFAVRE]

From the Yankees point of view White has been just awful. They realized they could't count on him for the post season so they dumped him. White is nowhere near the pitcher he was with the Reds last year. I suspect physical problems. But I don't see any down side to this move.

[Puffy]

A couple of points I would like to make on this thread.
1. i am very pleased with this trade. white has always been an eexcellent pitcher here and has always been nails against lefties.
2. Sully would be a great pickup imo. He always struggles early , and after it warms up his "frisbees" are virtually impossible for righties to handle.
3. Leskanic imo would be a serious upgrade over Reith and or Norton. He seemed to be a reliable pitcher for the Brew Crew. I think Hume could work out the kinks.
4. I AM VERY HAPPY TO SEE THE REDS FINALLY MAKE A MOVE THAT AT LEAST SYMBOLIZES A MOVE TO HELP THESE VETS WIN. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THIS MOVE. THESE GUYS NEED TO FEEL LIKE MNGMT IS GOING TO HELP THEM. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I agree with everything you said BRS.

I have been a vocal critic of the front office, but at least they see the bullpen problem and are trying to fix it. They said they had money to spend if they were competitive, and they at least made one move.

But, as much as I like this move, they still need at least one more reliever and a starter, so hopefully this is the first move of a trifecta

[Tony's Royals]

If anyone pick up curtis leskanic they would be on the hook for pro-rated of 350 k for the rest of year. per KC Star


that would cost the reds around 175 grand for rest of the season, not a bad ideal least see what he has lefted in the tank imo.

[GriffeyFan]

Adding White...not a GREAT move, not a BAD move...I'd say it's a decent move. I think he will help a struggling bullpen. I think we hardly gave up anything. White is a piece to the puzzle of this team continuing to contend. There are still remaining pieces to be aquired if O'Brien and the FO are serious about contending, but I think this is a move in the right direction.

[Aronchis]

Odds are when the Reds are 45-45 8 games out of first, 7 games out of the wild card, which they are heading to, they will be out of it and long gone out of it. White is a sideways "yawn" move in case they still can surprise, but tonights loss hurt and Acevedo's death as a SP might be the finishing blow.

[Bill]

A good deal as long as Cash is coming this way. I've been supporting White for awhile now in that if he were here in the Reds pen with Hume where he is comfortable, he would likely not be struggling. He struggled in CO but looked great as soon as he returned to Cincy. I expect the same if healthy. Not a bad risk.

And he is not a situational lefty per se but was often used in setup with the Reds. Also the Reds did well with 3 lefties last year (not that norton and MAthews are equal Heredia and Mercker).

Manning has a better chance of being a PH in the bigs than a starting pitcher. This was his 3rd go at AA if I recall correctly.

[Colorado Red]

06/18/2004 11:48 PM ET
Reds acquire White from Yankees
LHP Charlie Manning Sent To New York



ST. LOUIS -- Cincinnati Reds general manager Dan O'Brien today announced the acquisition of LHP Gabe White, a player to be named later and an undisclosed amount of cash from the New York Yankees in exchange for minor league LHP Charlie Manning.
White, 32, returns for his third stint with the Reds (1997-2000, 2002-03). He last pitched for Cincinnati in 2003 and went 3-0 with a 3.93 ERA in 34 relief appearances before he was traded to the Yankees on July 31 for a player to be named later.

White was originally acquired by the Reds from Montreal on December 15, 1995 in exchange for INF Jhonny Carvajal. He was traded to Colorado on April 7, 2000 in exchange for RHP Manny Aybar and was then re-acquired by the Reds on December 18, 2001, along with RHP Luke Hudson, in exchange for INF Pokey Reese and LHP Dennys Reyes.

White went 0-1 with an 8.27 ERA in 24 relief appearances with the Yankees this season. He produced a sterling 2.13 ERA in his first 15 games of the season, but in a pair of appearances on 5/15 vs Seattle and 6/11 vs San Diego allowed 11 earned runs in 3.0 innings. His overall ERA without those 2 outings drops to 4.08.

White is expected to join the Reds in St. Louis tomorrow (Saturday). He will wear uniform number 36. To make room on the 40-man roster, following tonight's game the Reds designated for assignment RHP Brian Reith.

Manning, 25, went 4-4 with a 5.12 ERA in 13 starts at Class AA Chattanooga this season. He was acquired by the Reds on July 31, 2003 as part of the deal that sent 3B Aaron Boone to New York.



© 2004 MLB Advanced Media, L.P. All rights reserved.

[CougarQuest]

Cincinnati Reds general manager Dan O'Brien today announced the acquisition of LHP Gabe White, a player to be named later and an undisclosed amount of cash from the New York Yankees in exchange for minor league LHP Charlie Manning.

WOW. Even if it's a single A player, the Reds get a major league LEFTHANDED reliever, cash and a PTBNL for Manning.

[westofyou]

If it was this was a movie about baseball in the 30's and 40's then Gabe White is Bobo Newsom and the Reds are the Washington Senators.

BTW I tend to think that Gabe is a injury risk as well, hence the PTBD.

[Bill]

White went 0-1 with an 8.27 ERA in 24 relief appearances with the Yankees this season. He produced a sterling 2.13 ERA in his first 15 games of the season, but in a pair of appearances on 5/15 vs Seattle and 6/11 vs San Diego allowed 11 earned runs in 3.0 innings. His overall ERA without those 2 outings drops to 4.08.

Well there you go.

Perhaps, but there is a great chance he will be an improvement. Alone however this won't make a difference.

[Playadlc]

Can someone tell me how much $$$$$$ usually goes in these cash consideration deals? Is it like $35,000 or is it even that much?

[reds1990]

I agree with everything you said BRS.

I have been a vocal critic of the front office, but at least they see the bullpen problem and are trying to fix it. They said they had money to spend if they were competitive, and they at least made one move.

But, as much as I like this move, they still need at least one more reliever and a starter, so hopefully this is the first move of a trifecta

I sort of like this move, if only as an acknowledgement from the FO that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I've been saying from day one that Miley needs to step up to the plate, as far as his authority will take him, and send guys out the door when they don't give their absolute best, or just can't do the job. It is no secret that part of the un-doing of the bullpen is the over-doing of the bullpen. They are cooked. I suspect their confidece is, too. How many games can you, where you are down by five runs before the third inning rolls around, before the whole system begins to crumble? It isn't realistic to expect the offense (not even on the Yankees, for Heaven's sakes) to put up 5+ runs every game, just to give the team a
chance. You can't keep running the bullpen out there in the 5th or 6th inning and expect it to miraculously pull a can of whoop-ass out of a magician's hat. Relief pitchers aren't conditioned for that, mentally or physically. At the rate they're going, why not just flip the whole dang pitching roster upside down and see how things work out? Maybe they'll get shelled after the first two or three innings, and Cory Lidle can come in and relieve for 6 innings or so. What the Reds really need to be doing is going after a #1 starter and a solid reliever, or get maybe two #2-3 pitcher. The bullpen will finally be able to run on a full tank.

[reds1990]

If it was this was a movie about baseball in the 30's and 40's then Gabe White is Bobo Newsom and the Reds are the Washington Senators.

BTW I tend to think that Gabe is a injury risk as well, hence the PTBD.

Since you think that Gabe is an injury risk, please point me to some place on the web where I can get a good breakdown of his career profile. Yahoo sports is always outdated with their stuff.

[KronoRed]

Ill calmly wait and see what White does in a Reds uni but for right now...

:eek:

I'll be doing this as well, hopefully he picks up where he left off last year.

But 3 lefties in the pen? losing Manning but we got some cash??

The Reds REALLY could drive someone to drink ;)

[LvJ]

A thing to note people: Just beacuse a pitcher is left handed, doesn't mean they can't get right handers out. We don't have three lefty specialists. We have 1 lefty specalist, and 2 left handed pitchers.

[RedsMan3203]

Only thing left to do is Grab Freddy Garcia, Randy Johnson and Eric Gange.

[Bill]

Manning hit his ceiling in AA. Only his BA is impressive.

The Reds had 3 lefties in the pen last year.

[reds1990]

Only thing left to do is Grab Freddy Garcia, Randy Johnson and Eric Gange.

They'll be cheaper after they retire
:lol:

[Revering4Blue]

Yankees Trade White to Reds
BY THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: June 19, 2004


OS ANGELES, June 18 — The sudden emergence of Bret Prinz in the Yankees' bullpen made the left-hander Gabe White expendable, and the Yankees traded White on Friday to the Cincinnati Reds for the minor league left-hander Charlie Manning.

The Yankees also included $700,000 in the deal. They will pay $200,000 more if the Reds decline White's 2005 option; if the Reds pick up the option, the Yankees will send them a minor leaguer.

White had an 8.27 earned run average in 24 appearances, and opponents have hit .355 against him. The move allows the Yankees to fit the left-hander Brad Halsey into their 40-man roster in time for Halsey's major league debut at Dodger Stadium on Saturday. General Manager Brian Cashman said the performance of Prinz, a right-hander, inspired the deal. Prinz has a 2.92 E.R.A. in 10 games.

"Prinz has done so well that despite being a right-hander, he's moved ahead of Gabe as someone we have confidence going out there for us," Cashman said. "The more Gabe struggled, the less opportunity he had to work out of it."

White, who came to the Yankees in a trade from Cincinnati last July 31, said he suffered from inactivity, but he said he did not blame Manager Joe Torre. "There's just limited work," White said.

[Raisor]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Please, no more ex-Reds.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Wish it would have been Danny Graves instead of Charlie Manning.

[GAC]

So that is how many times now that White has been with the Reds? ;)

[buckeyenut]

OK. White makes 1.925M this year. The season is 40% over so we will owe him about 1.2M of that, appx. We got 700K from NYY so the cost on White is about 500K for the rest of the season.

Since the 200K comes if we decline the option next year, my guess is that it is a 200K option. So, if White isn't good for us to ask him back, the cost is Charlie Manning. If he is good enough to ask him back, we get a PTBNL as well (which I don't understand because I would think we would have to give that up, but whatever)

The other thing to take into account here is the fact that 11 of the 18 runs White has allowed this year came in two outings. Part of the difficulty with a short sample size.

This to me seems like a fabulous deal. Somewhat of a risk, but a very calculated risk with little downside, especially for a team needing pen as badly as we do.

[redsfan30]

What a surprise, people are complaining.

1. The gripe all of you have had over the past month is that the FO should be burned for trading the bullpen from last year. If we had last year's bullpen we would be in first place. Well, they went out and got a guy and what are you doing? *****ing.

2. Norton and Matthews (Norton moreso) have been bad. The Reds had to do something to help this bullpen from the left side and they did. Everyone said they needed to go get someone to help and they did and what are you doing? *****ing.

3. People are saying that this team is just waiting to have a firesale and will do nothing to help the club stay in contention. We went out and got a proven lefty who has been great in Cincinnati twice before and didn't give up much in return. We are still rumored to be in discussions with other arms and what are you doing? *****ing.

We could go out and trade for Roger Clemens right now and you would complain that we gave up a Single A middle reliever who could have been good years from now.

The Reds did exactly what you were calling them out to do and you find any and every way to complain about it.

:rolleyes:

[redsfan30]

Obviously you can't say "*****" on Redszone anymore.

:thumbup:

[Unassisted]

Wish it would have been Danny Graves instead of Charlie Manning.Only way that happens is if the Reds send cash with Graves. Do you really want to send cash to the Yanks? :mhcky21:

[RollyInRaleigh]

Maybe there will be a "sucker" out there at the deadline, but I won't hold my breath.

[NC Reds]

I guess DanO is just trying to catch lightning in a bottle. I predict White exasperates this board as much as our other lefties.

[VR]

It seems that O'Brien at least made a reasonable trade. White can be streaky for sustained periods. If Gully gets him squared away, he can be one of the most effective lefties around. If not he gets moved around the deadline for Pylo Cash.

[Barbarossa]

Rotoworld is saying that the Reds are getting $700,000 plus the player to be named. :GAC:

[guernsey]

White is more likely to help the Reds win this year than Manning is, which I thought was the objective of most folks on this board who are clammoring for a playoff run.

[bleedsred]

White with the Reds....$700,000......and Reith is not with the Reds! How can this be bad for the Reds???....Reith is not with the Reds....Reith is not with the Reds....Reith is not with the Reds....just keep saying it and you love this trade.

[Gary Redus]

Why is this a problem? We are still hanging around even with a bunch of injuries and Mr. Gasoline and Lighted Match in the back end of the bull pen.
Losing last night was a problem but not this trade.

[cincinnati chili]

I like this deal, if the money is right. It may not pan out, but White has had some very successful years. Reith never has and never will, and I'm glad to see him off the roster. The prospect they gave up is reportedly not stellar.

Why not.

Next move, unload Graves. Put the money into a starting pitcher or two. Sign Leskanic. He can surely save the same percentage of games as Graves for a lot less money.

[Gary Redus]

Upon further consideration ...

I've been gone for the past week and out of communication with the sports world. After looking at the boxes for the past week (I'm glad I was out of touch - shesh!) how does one complain about the FO acquiring a major league pitcher with a solid track record in Cincy for a 25 year old lefty in AA ball. Aside from the injuries this bullpen is awful. What's not to like - Reith goes away and White is added?

The FO has made two moves unlike the past - releasing Haynes and acquiring White. This is encouraging not alarming. What is alarming is Danny Graves in the 9th with a lead to protect or Ryan Freel having to play every day or Kearns spending more time in Louisville than in Cincy.

[Matt700wlw]

Hey Matt, any chance the on-air folks at your station could start using their influence to get Reds fans to stuff the All-Star ballot for a few of the team's higher profile players?

The only reason why Barry Larkin isn't leading the NL SS ballot is because Astros and Cardinals fans have swarmed in support of their guys. Reds fans have got to retaliate.

We need the airwaves, baby.

I know Tracy has been saying to vote vote vote...I'm not sure about Furball, I'm usually getting ready for the game and don't get a chance to hear him much.

I'll see what I can do :)

[Cicero]

White always seemed to flourish in Gullet so why not? It isn't a bad deal by any stretch, and if he regains his form it will be a great deal. I am convinced that some here just need to complain for th esake of complaining.

[IslandRed]

Seems like a fairly low-risk deal here; to see if White still has it outside of New York isn't costing us much in either money or talent. As others have calculated, the net cost of White is about $500k (even less, actually, if dumping Reith saves us anything). Manning is 25 and approaching non-prospect status.

[REDREAD]

well, my opinion of O'Brien has increased tremendously. He gets a big thumbs up for at least trying to reinforce the bullpen :thumbup: Better late than never.

I really don't see how anyone can not like this deal. Manning is garbage. And Gabe's salary is heavily subsidized.

Even if you think this club is not a legit contender, Gabe will bump Reith or another one of the dregs out of the pen, and make the club a lot more pleasurable to watch.. Welcome back Gabe :thumbup:

[reds1990]

Why is this a problem? We are still hanging around even with a bunch of injuries and Mr. Gasoline and Lighted Match in the back end of the bull pen.
Losing last night was a problem but not this trade.

I got a chuckle out of that, thanks for the humour
:thumbup:

[alloverjr]

Not contending? What team are you watching?


This one. :MandJ:

Seriously, I applaud your optimism, but IMO this team is far from a contending club no matter where it sits in the standings now. It's just a matter of time. Make the best use of what talent you have to deal and move forward.

[savafan]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Please, no more ex-Reds.

What does it matter that he's an ex-Red, so long as he's a quality major league pitcher? Seriously, I've never understood your phobia of ex-Reds.

[Raisor]

What does it matter that he's an ex-Red, so long as he's a quality major league pitcher? Seriously, I've never understood your phobia of ex-Reds.


Because I'm tired of the same old stuff. New blood, new ideas.

[Colorado Red]

I saw this article at BA. I don't think it has been posted yet, enjoy.
IMO if Gullett can do his magic again with White. We'll have a good LHP reliever we can trade for young prospects at the trading deadline.


White returns to Reds
By Jim Callis
June 18, 2004

Last July 31, the Yankees sent minor league lefthander Charlie Manning to the Reds in a deal for Aaron Boone, then acquired Gabe White from Cincinnati for cash considerations later in the afternoon. On Friday, both southpaws went back to their previous destinations as New York shipped White to the Reds for Manning.

The Yankees included $700,000 in the trade to help offset the remainder of White's $2.125 million salary for 2004. He also has an option for $1.925 million for 2005. New York will pay the $200,000 buyout if the Reds decline the option, or send them a player to be named later if they pick it up.

White, 32, works with a good changeup and an average-at-best fastball. American League hitters didn't have much problem solving that combination, as White posted a 6.82 ERA in parts of two seasons as a Yankee. He has struggled mightily in 2004, going 0-1, 8.27 in 24 games and falling into disuse in the bullpen. In 21 innings, he had an 8-7 strikeout-walk ratio, while opponents batted .355 with two homers against him. He owns a 33-24, 4.42 record and 16 saves in 426 career appearances. New York will use White's 25-man roster spot to promote lefty Brad Halsey, who will make his major league debut with a start against the Dodgers on Saturday.

Manning, 25, signed as a 2001 ninth-round pick from the University of Tampa. Manning has a high-80s fastball that has topped out at 93 but also dropped to the low-80s at times in 2003. He supplements it with a cutter, slider and changeup. In 13 starts at Double-A Chattanooga, he went 4-4, 5.12. He had a 71-21 K-BB ratio, five homers allowed and a .292 opponent average in 70 innings. The Yankees assigned him to Double-A Trenton.


:GAC: :GAC:

[Colorado Red]

Yes we need to bring up Sanchez up from Lousiville. Next we'll sign LHP Curtis Leskanic to a minor league contract to see if he's got anything left.
Heck Saturday the Braves designated C.J. Nitkowski for assignment we could sign him to a minor league contract too!!! He's an ex-red and a LHP, we'll corner the market on LHP relievers and the top teams we'll have to come to the Reds for a LHP reliever at the trading deadline!!
Please, Please Mr. O'Brien don't sign LHP Jimmy Anderson who was disignated for assignment by the Cubs on Saturday too. We can't afford what he eats, he's a true 5-tool player. He has a knife, fork, spoon and two plates!!


:p:

[Matt700wlw]

Because I'm tired of the same old stuff. New blood, new ideas.

This new blood bullpen has been getting a lot accomplished as of late though, hasn't it?

[Colorado Red]

Yes it's early but in two appearances White hasn't given up any runs. If Graves is traded for something useful maybe Riedling and White could become dual closers for the Reds.

[KronoRed]

This new blood bullpen has been getting a lot accomplished as of late though, hasn't it?

Not a lot of new blood out there, just old blood that's been pitching better ;)

[Hubba]

This new blood bullpen has been getting a lot accomplished as of late though, hasn't it?Matt this time I'm going to have to agree with you ,If the Reds had the old blood from last year I think they would be if first place. Bullpen that is,

[Eric_Davis]

Erm, why? He's been awful this season.

Buy low.

Great pickup.

Great Job Dan O'Brien.

Cost the REDS nothing.

Might get a left-hander that can pitch in the Major Leauges out of this.

Excellent pickup. Got White when he was struggling. Nowhere to go but up.

[Eric_Davis]

Yes we need to bring up Sanchez up from Lousiville. Next we'll sign LHP Curtis Leskanic to a minor league contract to see if he's got anything left.
Heck Saturday the Braves designated C.J. Nitkowski for assignment we could sign him to a minor league contract too!!! He's an ex-red and a LHP, we'll corner the market on LHP relievers and the top teams we'll have to come to the Reds for a LHP reliever at the trading deadline!!
Please, Please Mr. O'Brien don't sign LHP Jimmy Anderson who was disignated for assignment by the Cubs on Saturday too. We can't afford what he eats, he's a true 5-tool player. He has a knife, fork, spoon and two plates!!


:p:

You're being facetious, but it would be the right course to take. Pick up guys like Leskanic when they're cheap. For every two or three you pick up, one will be good. We're not giving up top prospects for these guys, anyway.

[Eric_Davis]

White always seemed to flourish in Gullet so why not? It isn't a bad deal by any stretch, and if he regains his form it will be a great deal. I am convinced that some here just need to complain for th esake of complaining.

Exactly. This is a low-risk aquisition, that has great potential (anytime you can get a lefty to be effective (ERA around 4.00).

[Eric_Davis]

I choose to believe that's a mistake made by some editorial assistant. The Reds can't be giving up cash in addition to dropping an extra mil on White, surely they're smarter than that.

Aren't they?

Good analysis M2. Proves once again to never beleive anything you hear and half of what you see.

[Doc. Scott]

Yes we need to bring up Sanchez up from Lousiville. Next we'll sign LHP Curtis Leskanic to a minor league contract to see if he's got anything left.
Heck Saturday the Braves designated C.J. Nitkowski for assignment we could sign him to a minor league contract too!!! He's an ex-red and a LHP, we'll corner the market on LHP relievers and the top teams we'll have to come to the Reds for a LHP reliever at the trading deadline!!
Please, Please Mr. O'Brien don't sign LHP Jimmy Anderson who was disignated for assignment by the Cubs on Saturday too. We can't afford what he eats, he's a true 5-tool player. He has a knife, fork, spoon and two plates!!

And a lot of people were calling for us to grab Ricky Stone as well when the Astros dumped him, but San Diego got there first. Damn.

Actually, I'd take CJ Nitkowski over Phil Norton any day, but realistically, Jesus Sanchez can do the same job and is already in the organization.

[Eric_Davis]

It seems that everyone loves to chime in negatively on a player. You know, it demonstrates our "knowledge" of the game. Seriously, Sullivan was lights out for awhile. Any of you guys remember that? He had an injury, I believe, and seemed really hittable after that. Sullivan is one of those sub-marine pitchers, which I think throws hitters off.

Excellent change of pace to have in the bullpen.

[Eric_Davis]

I don't mind the Reds rolling the dice on White, I just don't think they ought to be paying seven figures out of what is surely a small reserve fund to do it.

If the Yankees are paying most or all of White's contract, then I don't mind the deal. I don't have a lot of hope it will make much difference, but I don't mind it. My sole concern is that the Reds not spend themselves out of something far more attractive down the road.

Perfect analysis, which is exactly what O'Brien must have been thinking. I'm also certain he consulted with the coaches and scouts before making this trade.

[Eric_Davis]

36-year-old RHRP Leskanic makes $1.25M this year.

This year he's been in 19 games, pitching 15.1 innings, giving up 23 hits, 16 runs, 5 HR, 14 BB, with 15 K's. He has 2 saves with 3 blown saves. He has a 2.36 WHIP! Batters are hitting .324 against him! He has an 8.04 ERA.

Perfect time to aquire him.

His true market value is at least 40% higher than his current market value. Pick him up cheap. He's a better pitcher than he's showing himself to be right now.

[Eric_Davis]

A couple of points I would like to make on this thread.
1. i am very pleased with this trade. white has always been an eexcellent pitcher here and has always been nails against lefties.
2. Sully would be a great pickup imo. He always struggles early , and after it warms up his "frisbees" are virtually impossible for righties to handle.
3. Leskanic imo would be a serious upgrade over Reith and or Norton. He seemed to be a reliable pitcher for the Brew Crew. I think Hume could work out the kinks.
4. I AM VERY HAPPY TO SEE THE REDS FINALLY MAKE A MOVE THAT AT LEAST SYMBOLIZES A MOVE TO HELP THESE VETS WIN. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THIS MOVE. THESE GUYS NEED TO FEEL LIKE MNGMT IS GOING TO HELP THEM. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Great point!...and was the 6-0 win a possible result of the team feeling that management was behind them in trying to improve the club?

It's an emotional game. People forget this all the time. They played their hearts out on Friday night, only to get their guts ripped out of them at the end. Saturday's loss was a reflection of that. But they all sucked it up on Sunday, Father's Day (Field of Dreams, etc., very nostalgic day for baseball, I was at a minor league park giving away father's day gifts to the first 500 dads that walked through), and the team slammed shut the door on the Cardinals. 6-0 is a butt-whipping. Great comeback, with good momentum going to New York.

[traderumor]

I know Gabe got knocked around in NY. Who knows why, not everything they touch turns to gold. He also got knocked around in Colorado, but also did well there. What's that tell us? We got a major league arm that had recent success here for someone that is probably never going to see a major league roster, anywhere. A low risk proposition and knocked one piece of chaff off the map. Next piece of chaff is Norton when Harang is ready as I feel a lot more comfortable with Gabey going out there in the roles that Phil has been filling. Let's just hope that the bad numbers were mental and mechanical, all of which can be fixed and very well could be in a familiar environment where one has had past success. Now, if we can just get a hard thrower in the mix somewhere. I know, I know we had two in Reitsma and Williamson but that's water under the bridge now. Maybe we could get a do over on Williamson (assuming his arm is still attached to his body, that is)? :mhcky21:

[Colorado Red]

Hey Eric,
I really think it would be good if we bring up Sanchez from Louisville in the near future. I think it would also be good if we signed LHP Curtis Leskanic and /or CJ Nit. to minor league contracts. If they did well we could trade a couple of LHPs relievers for some decent prospects and it would hurt our team. Sometimes AL teams really need a LHP bad who can only get out 2-3 LH hitters. We need to build up our minor leagues quality player base and this could be a good way of doing it. We could at least get some decent position players as minor league prospects.

I just don't want to see Jimmy Anderson in a Reds uniform again for a very loooong time!

[Eric_Davis]

Odds are when the Reds are 45-45 8 games out of first, 7 games out of the wild card, which they are heading to, they will be out of it and long gone out of it. White is a sideways "yawn" move in case they still can surprise, but tonights loss hurt and Acevedo's death as a SP might be the finishing blow.

Man, you kill me. This team will never see 45-45. I'll welcome you back on the bandwagon when the REDS take the Series in New York this week.

[Eric_Davis]

If it was this was a movie about baseball in the 30's and 40's then Gabe White is Bobo Newsom and the Reds are the Washington Senators.

BTW I tend to think that Gabe is a injury risk as well, hence the PTBD.

Good point. I was curious about a possible injury to White. I noticed the REDS weren't putting him through a physical before consumating the trade.

[Eric_Davis]

Most of the posters on this forum are way too critical and way to hard on Dan O'Brien. He's half-way into his first season as the REDS G.M. and most of the posts I read treat him like he's been here for five years and all the current results of the REDS are his fault.

There are so few of you here who recognize the time it takes to change an organization from a poor one (which is what it was when he took over) to a better one. When the organization you take over is predicted to have the worst record in all of baseball by half of the pre-season prognosticators, how long do you expect to see better results?

Give the guy a few years before you go bashing him.

For the record, this club has been in the playoff chase all year. A lot of this credit would have to go to Miley, but some of it goes to the guy G.M. Policy trickles down and effects an organization from top to bottom.

He doesn't have much room to maneuver because he lacks a lot of funds, but this move was an example of one that costs little and has great potential rewards.

It's always sound strategy to pay less for someone than what he's worth overall. Gabe White will have many good months over the next several years, hopefully sooner than later.

[Eric_Davis]

It's nice to see all the positive notes on this thread about acquiring White. It's also encouraging to see the positive notes from those who have admitted that they have expected more from Dan O'Brien by now.

[Eric_Davis]

I know Gabe got knocked around in NY. Who knows why, not everything they touch turns to gold. He also got knocked around in Colorado, but also did well there. What's that tell us? We got a major league arm that had recent success here for someone that is probably never going to see a major league roster, anywhere. A low risk proposition and knocked one piece of chaff off the map. Next piece of chaff is Norton when Harang is ready as I feel a lot more comfortable with Gabey going out there in the roles that Phil has been filling. Let's just hope that the bad numbers were mental and mechanical, all of which can be fixed and very well could be in a familiar environment where one has had past success. Now, if we can just get a hard thrower in the mix somewhere. I know, I know we had two in Reitsma and Williamson but that's water under the bridge now. Maybe we could get a do over on Williamson (assuming his arm is still attached to his body, that is)? :mhcky21:

I'd love to see 75-80% of O'Brien's moves be good ones. There will be bad ones, but this isn't one of them. As you said, it improves one piece of the entire organization. This organization is only going to get better one move at a time.

The ultimate goal of the organization is to improve the minor league system, and if you can win now, if the team is in contention, then to attempt to do so, but not if it alters the plan of improving the minor league system. Losing Manning and getting White for $500K accomplishes all of the goals of the organization. It's a great move. Not all great moves are about great players. A great move can be about small pieces.

[Eric_Davis]

Hey Eric,
I really think it would be good if we bring up Sanchez from Louisville in the near future. I think it would also be good if we signed LHP Curtis Leskanic and /or CJ Nit. to minor league contracts. If they did well we could trade a couple of LHPs relievers for some decent prospects and it would hurt our team. Sometimes AL teams really need a LHP bad who can only get out 2-3 LH hitters. We need to build up our minor leagues quality player base and this could be a good way of doing it. We could at least get some decent position players as minor league prospects.

I just don't want to see Jimmy Anderson in a Reds uniform again for a very loooong time!

I was thinking the same thing, though I hadn't read it in this thread until you mentioned it. I'm always seeing reports where teams need a lefty to get out just one guy during a game situation. Lefties have greater trade value. I'd love for this team to get Leskanic, also. It makes Graves even more tradable (to the White Sox?).

On another thread, here was Hal's response to the Sanchez question:

"Q — Why not bring in left-hander Jesus Sanchez for the bullpen? I thought he did well in spring training. I'd replace left-handed Phil Norton with Sanchez. — Michael, Dayton

A — Sanchez did very well early in spring training, but bottomed out late. He has done all right in Louisville. Norton did well late last season and, indeed, has struggled mightily lately. Being left-handed myself, I know how goofy and unreliable we can be. But just when you think we stink, we toss a little rose. Norton doesn't always stink like Ed Norton on The Honeymooners when he comes out of a sewer."

Personally, I know so little about the REDS minor leaguers. Is Sanchez ready to give him a shot? Would bringing him up now possibly hurt him in the future? Does he have control enough to follow the organization's philosophy of pitch-to-contact? With Bong having earned more playing time, would Sanchez be better off staying in the minors and getting starts, stretching out his arm for more innings next year, or would the stint as a reliever in the Majors be a place where he'll end up anyway?