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View Full Version : O'Brien to Larkin: "Your starting services are no longer needed"



jmcclain19
09-08-2004, 03:23 AM
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/9605888.htm?1c (http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/sports/9605888.htm?1c)

Looks like the end of an era has been reached. Sad day in Reds history.




Reds to bench Larkin for rest of season

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Daily News Wire Services
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Barry Larkin's name won't be found in Cincinnati's starting lineup for the rest of the season and the Reds' captain is disappointed and hurt by the news.

And, the 40-year-old Larkin said he believes it is the team's way of showing him the clubhouse door.

Larkin was summoned to general manager Dan O'Brien's suite at the team hotel in Houston yesterday morning and was told his starting services were no longer required.

Larkin revealed the news before last night's 9-7 loss to the Astros. He said he had expected to play the rest of the season.

Larkin is hitting .300 for his 327 at-bats this season over 98 games and has made only four errors.

Instead of Larkin facing Houston's Roy Oswalt last night, it was 23-year-old Anderson Machado making his major-league starting and hitting debut. Machado, who the Reds got from the Phillies on July 31 as part of the deal for reliever Todd Jones, was 0-4 and stuck out three times.

"They said they want to see Machado and Felipe Lopez splitting time at shortstop, but I think it's just their way of not letting me get out there to show what I can do this last month of the season," Larkin said. "That'll make it easier for them this offseason."

Asked if this meant anything as far as Larkin's future with the Reds, O'Brien said, "No, not really. This is more about the fact that we need to see if either Felipe or Machado can be a starting major-league shortstop or a combination."

RedsRule30
09-08-2004, 04:01 AM
Larkin earned the right to start at SS at least 3 times per week. Larkin does well when he starts. Check the stats. Playing Lopez and Machado in the final 25 games isn't going to prove anything. Wow. 25 games.

It is going to take Larkin 10 tries to make the HOF. He is close to reaching milestones such as George Davis' 451 doubles, career 200 hrs, Reese and Aparicio's runs scored, etc.

Red Thunder
09-08-2004, 04:42 AM
Larkin earned the right to start at SS at least 3 times per week. Larkin does well when he starts. Check the stats. Playing Lopez and Machado in the final 25 games isn't going to prove anything. Wow. 25 games.


I depends which way you look at it.

"They said they want to see Machado and Felipe Lopez splitting time at shortstop, but I think it's just their way of not letting me get out there to show what I can do this last month of the season," Larkin said.

To me, this remark sounds a bit selfish - which just might be the cause of frustration - as Larkin is not the future shortstop for the Reds. But Lopez or Machado could be.

If you state that playing Machado / Lopez 25 games means nothing, why should another 25 starts for Larkin mean something? And why are decisions each spring based on about 25 exhibition games? The games til October are meaningless for the Reds, so I understand that the team wants to take a closer look at some players, who like in Machado's case would not have been given a shot if the Reds still were in the pennant race. Machado will get some experience, learn some more things from the hitting coach and get some more (and needed) at bats, as the AAA season is over. If Machado impresses the rest of the season, the Reds have a better basis what to do with him (re-signing or not). Granted, Larkin is a considerable better hitter than both Lopez and Machado, but the younger players need every extra at bat and experience in the field they can get.

25 games less played won't hurt Larkin's HOF chances, in my opinion. Either he is already in with his current lifetime stats or not. But creeping like in his case towards the next personal milestone while taking playing time away from his successors is something I do not welcome.

RedsRule30
09-08-2004, 05:01 AM
Larkin needs those 25 more games more than Machado to bolster his HOF chances. Larkin is 8th all-time in runs scored by a shortstop and can move up to 6th all-time with 10 more runs. Larkin is 3 hrs away from 200. He is 48 hits away from 98th all-time and tying Sandberg.

Larkin needs these milestones so he makes the HOF in 4-5 tries, rather than 9-10 tries.

I don't see how 25 games for Machado are going to magically prove that he is the shortstop of the future. Let Machado prove himself in spring training. His stats suck in the minors. Benching Larkin is a major insult. If Machado was an awesome shortstop prospect, then I would support it, but he clearly isn't. Lopez is the SS of the future, not Machado.

Also, I am stunned that Juan Castro has been stealing at-bats from Larkin even though Castro will probably leave as a free agent. Heck, even Darren Bragg has been stealing at-bats from Larkin by playing OF and forcing Freel to 3B and Lopez to SS. Larkin has to be pissed off.

I will be amazed if Machado is starting at SS and playing everyday in 2005. He better not be a Rey Ordonez clone (worst hitter in history with 3000+ at-bats).

ODERED
09-08-2004, 05:11 AM
I can understand players WANTING to make the Hall of Fame, but my personal belief is that it should be up to the HOF voters to decide that. Larkin's job is to do the best he can do, and if his performance career-wise warrants a vote into the HOF, that is great news. If not, at least he had a great career and I'm sure achieved many of his personal goals.

To me, tacking on 25 games for the sole reason of getting HOF status is the same as sitting out a bunch of games in order to preserve a high batting average, swinging for the fences on every single pitch in order to break a homerun record, moping all over the mound in order to throw off the timing of the hitter or to preserve energy.

Barry needs to just step away from the game, and enjoy life. He's still healthy. Any one injury could change all that. He'll have no problem at all finding work elsewhere in baseball. Just not as a player. His time has come.

I do think that a very small part of the front office's decsion to bench Larkin is due to the mistake they made in signing him to such a large contract at such a late point in his career, realizing that they should have all along put more effort into developing or acquiring someone to take Larkin's spot.

Stepping aside from my allegiance to the Reds, I can see how in some ways Barry might not make the HOF. Sadly, he played in between eras, between the wizard of Oz, and the power hitting shortstops that we see today. That isn't his fault, but there is no guarantee that HOF voters will see it the way we do. All they will see is the numbers.

Good luck, Barry, in all that you do in the future! :thumbup:

RedsRule30
09-08-2004, 05:25 AM
It's amazing how 50 rbis and hits can improve a player's HOF chances. I guarantee that if Tony Perez had 100 fewer rbis, he wouldn't be in the HOF. Perez's sole claim to making the HOF was having the most rbis for a non-HOF player.

Larkin will have fewer hits than Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, and Ryne Sandberg (lock for HOF in 2005 or 2006 IMO). That is really going to hurt.

Why should a HOF voter select Larkin when Trammell and Whitaker aren't in the HOF? That is what some HOF voters are going to think.

With 48 more hits, Larkin moves from 110th all-time to 98th all-time and drastically improves HOF chances.

Machado is a mediocre hitting and fielding SS. My guess is that he may be moved to 2B if Jimenez gets non-tendered (good chance IMO).

Expected 2005 Reds lineup.

C: Larue (non-tendering Larue would be insanely stupid)
1B: Casey
2B: Machado (or Lopez, whatever)
SS: Lopez
3B: Freel (maybe Kearns, who knows)
LF: Dunn
CF: Pena
RF: Griffey (maybe 1B if Casey traded)

Edit: I think Larkin is actually a lock due to his stats from 1988-2000 (11 all-stars and 9 silver sluggers). I just don't want to see him wait 8-9 years rather than 4-5 years. HOF voters like to make a player wait extra long if a borderline case. Larkin's injury history and missed games are going to look bad.

Raisor
09-08-2004, 05:34 AM
I have no problem, in theory, in benching Larkin, but there's no way that he should be benched in favor of Juan Castro, who for some reason keeps getting at bats.

RosieRed
09-08-2004, 05:36 AM
Perhaps Barry will play (somewhere) next year and have a chance to gather those 50 hits and whatever else.

KronoRed
09-08-2004, 06:26 AM
Perhaps Barry will play (somewhere) next year and have a chance to gather those 50 hits and whatever else.

Agreed.

Chip R
09-08-2004, 07:56 AM
Perhaps Barry will play (somewhere) next year and have a chance to gather those 50 hits and whatever else.
If he does I believe he lessens his HOF chances. People dig the fact that he has been with one team his whole career.

RFS62
09-08-2004, 08:07 AM
Doesn't sound very good for his chances at landing a front office job after he retires.

LvJ
09-08-2004, 08:13 AM
It's sad, but it's the right time. He can play, but he has been too risky with the injuries, and I for one want to see the new faces. Atleast Lopez. I think he will be a very talented short stop or 3rd basemen in the future. I would like to have Larkin return next year as a backup. I really love the guy. Every Reds fan should, but he needs to stop pulling a Michael Moore on us and drop the little conspiracy theories. It's getting old.
"They said they want to see Machado and Felipe Lopez splitting time at shortstop, but I think it's just their way of not letting me get out there to show what I can do this last month of the season," Larkin said. "That'll make it easier for them this offseason." SHUT. UP. :dflynn:

RedFanAlways1966
09-08-2004, 08:25 AM
Well said, LvJ. :thumbup:

zombie-a-go-go
09-08-2004, 08:28 AM
Good lord. I like Barry as much as the next guy, but he needs to realize that the Reds are more than just him. Barry, you are not "The Future." If he loves the club so much, why is he so upset at the club for trying to make his heir the best SS he can be? IIRC, back at the beginning of the season Larkin was talking his game about playing part-time and being on the club to show Lopez the ropes. I thought that was noble of him - this is petulant.

Let it go, Barry. Please. You're endearing yourself to nobody.

traderumor
09-08-2004, 08:56 AM
Doesn't sound very good for his chances at landing a front office job after he retires.Barry doesn't have much of a chance as long as JA is in charge IMO. He has made several disparaging remarks about the FO without naming names, but it was pretty clear the one most qualified to fit with the remarks was Allen. The article mentioned fielding is still tough for him with the abdominal injury, yet he makes a backhanded remark about being kept off the field. Like no one knows what Barry can still do. He is a real tool sometimes.

Unassisted
09-08-2004, 08:57 AM
He brought this on himself by having the club cancel "Barry Larkin Day" and announcing his intention to consider playing next year. When he did that, he forfeited any "right" to play out the season. DanO wants... no... needs to move the club in a new direction and a 41 year-old SS isn't part of those plans. I agree it's an ugly reality and a shame it happened this way, but I'm not sympathetic. Let him get those milestones elsewhere.

Aceking
09-08-2004, 08:59 AM
Good lord. I like Barry as much as the next guy, but he needs to realize that the Reds are more than just him. Barry, you are not "The Future." If he loves the club so much, why is he so upset at the club for trying to make his heir the best SS he can be? IIRC, back at the beginning of the season Larkin was talking his game about playing part-time and being on the club to show Lopez the ropes. I thought that was noble of him - this is petulant.

Let it go, Barry. Please. You're endearing yourself to nobody.


I too am getting tired of the annual "Barry is hurt and disapointed story." He needs to realize that this club needs to move on.

I guess he keeps playing this up to the media because it seems to work for him every time he does it.

dougflynn23
09-08-2004, 08:59 AM
The self-proclaimed Icon is a cancer to the Reds clubhouse; always has been and always will be. I will never forgive him for ripping his captain's "C" off of his uniform in protest over a trade. I'm waiting for the Icon to invite George Vogel or Ken Broo into his rental property (remember, the Cincinnati Icon hasn't lived here for over 12 years) and make a last minute plea to he fans and Carl Lindner to step in on his behalf, just as he did last year. I know for a fact that John Allen felt completely betrayed when Lindner intervened and brought the Icon back for 2004, so I bet he's licking his chops to bring the axe down now. As for the Icon in a front office role; well, he's had 20 years of experience in that area with his open door access to Jim Bowden and Carl Lindner, but would you want a person in your inner circle who has proven time and time again to be a divisive influence? :eek:

GAC
09-08-2004, 09:39 AM
Larkin needs those 25 more games more than Machado to bolster his HOF chances.

If Barry Larkin's HOF induction depends on these last 25 games, then he ain't gonna make it. ;)

GAC
09-08-2004, 09:45 AM
I depends which way you look at it.

"They said they want to see Machado and Felipe Lopez splitting time at shortstop, but I think it's just their way of not letting me get out there to show what I can do this last month of the season," Larkin said.

To me, this remark sounds a bit selfish - which just might be the cause of frustration - as Larkin is not the future shortstop for the Reds. But Lopez or Machado could be.

My take on it too RT. When I read the article this morning in the Dayton Daily News I said to myself... "Here's Barry running to the media again and whining about his playing time, and not what is best for this team's future." I love ya Barry....BUT SHUT UP!!

You have to play Lopez consistently to see what we got. Benching him even once or twice a week so that Barry can play is not gonna do him any good, and Barry should realize this.

I stated over a year ago that the only way that they'd get Larkin out of that SS position was to have someone go out there on the field and drag him off kicking and screaming. Because a guy who spent most of his career being an unselfish player has become a selfish one over these last few years IMO. And I'm getting tired of it.

Bow out gracefully Barry, and preserve your good standing with this organization and the fans.

And again.... SHUT UP! :D

REDREAD
09-08-2004, 09:46 AM
Doesn't sound very good for his chances at landing a front office job after he retires.

His chances of getting a FO job were zero with Allen in charge anyway.

If Machado is the future, the future is pretty scary. I think the Reds owe it to the ticket holders to put their best team on the field. If the Reds are going to show Barry the door next year, they have the entire 2005 season to show us Machado and Lopez.

Barry has said numerous times that he really doesn't care if he makes the HOF or not. This isn't about Barry trying to get some magical milestone for the HOF. Even the people that dislike Barry must admit that Larkin in the lineup is better than Machado (hands down), and at least arguably better than Lopez.

I hope Barry does go to another team next year, so he can leave the game with some pride and respect, instead of being crapped on by DanO and Allen.
I really don't know why he wanted to come back here this year, after they treated him so poorly.

Barry's only "mistake" was telling the truth and calling out this lame franchise for having no interest in trying to win.

Also, if Lark plays elsewhere next year, I doubt it hurts his HOF chances at all. It's not like he's going to leave on some money grab. He's being forced to leave. Even if he has a terrible year, it won't hurt him.

TeamCasey
09-08-2004, 09:51 AM
RR,

How is Barry being "crapped on" or treated poorly??

Krusty
09-08-2004, 09:53 AM
Bring Barry back to the Reds next year but not for anything over 1.2 million. He could be the Manny Mota pinch hitting expert. Larkin can still swing the bat and come up with some clutch hits especially late in the game. One of the biggest problem with the Reds was a weak bench.

As far as the everyday shortstop, I think Felipe Lopez has shown that he is ready to take over. With help from coaches Chamblis and Whisler, Lopez has improved on his hitting and fielding, and there is no reason why he can't be the everyday shortstop next season?

Machado? Why not take a look at him. Castro is a free agent and will probably be asking more than the Reds are willing to play. Maybe he can replace Castro defensively off the bench. IMO, Olmedo would be the better choice but why he isn't up here too has me scratching my head.

TeamBoone
09-08-2004, 10:25 AM
Wednesday, September 8, 2004

Larkin's told to sit on bench
O'Brien claims Reds captain supportive of diminished role
By John FayEnquirer staff writer

HOUSTON - Anderson Machado, fresh up from Triple-A Louisville, was in the starting lineup for the Reds on Tuesday night.

With Felipe Lopez getting the bulk of the time at shortstop before Machado arrived, where does that leave Barry Larkin? As a pinch-hitter for the rest of the year.

"The majority of the playing time is going to go to Machado and Lopez," Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said. "We met with Barry today and told him that. He was supportive."

The Reds are looking for a permanent replacement for Larkin, 40, who has been a fixture at shortstop for the Reds since 1986.

That does not mean that Larkin will not return to the Reds next year. He is a free agent after this season.

"This situation - with Machado and Lopez - doesn't affect next year with Barry," O'Brien said.

Larkin originally planned to make this season his last. But in July he asked the club to cancel a planned Barry Larkin Day.

Larkin has not decided whether he'll play next season. O'Brien says the club will deal with free agents, including Larkin, after the season.

Larkin has not started a game since Friday in Milwaukee. He has not started on back-to-back days since Aug. 10-11. In the 24 games since then, Larkin has started only five.

Part of that is because of the way Lopez is playing. Part of that is because Larkin has been dealing with a strained oblique muscle. The injury doesn't bother him at the plate - he has 15 hits in his last 43 at-bats (.349) - but it limits his range in the field.

The Reds have an opening at shortstop and third base for next year. Lopez started at third Tuesday.

To think Machado, 23, would be ready to play regularly next year could be wishful thinking. He hit .228 with six home runs and 38 RBI in 109 Triple-A games. He looked overmatched against Roy Oswalt on Tuesday. He struck out on three pitches in his first two at-bats, and on five pitches his third time up.

Lopez, 24, is a more realistic possibility. He went into Tuesday hitting .291 with five home runs and 17 RBI in his last 36 games.

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/09/08/red1barry.html

DunnersGrl44
09-08-2004, 11:00 AM
Wow.... this team is rediculous. Why would you tell someone that their services are no longer needed?... This team has a problem with injuries, and i realize that Barry isn't 100% but he is battling thru it and he wants to play, and when he is playing he is producing. I just don't understand why they would do that. :thumbdown

flyer85
09-08-2004, 11:07 AM
Playing Lopez and Machado in the final 25 games isn't going to prove anything.

Not true. While it will not prove if they can handle it next year, it can prove that they are not in any sense ready for the bigs.

The Astros had the book on Machado. Throw breaking balls and he has no chance. He never even fouled one off. He couldn't have hit them with an ironing board. I think these last 3 weeks will prove that Machado is hopelessly overmatched as a hitter.

RedsFan75
09-08-2004, 11:14 AM
I never quite understood the Machado pickup anyway. My only thought is that he would be an alternative to Castro next year... But I thought we had Ray O for that???

IF Lopez is deemed the SS of the future, and Olmedo is the next "Manos De Oro" then why Machado..... UNLESS the Phillies forced him as a throw-in. (We'll give you Hancock for Lidle, but you've got to take Machado off our hands too)

:confused:

Cedric
09-08-2004, 11:17 AM
If Juan Castro keeps getting at bats and Barry Larkin can't i'm gonna scream. I pray for the day Juan Castro is off this team. It's an absolute joke.

westofyou
09-08-2004, 11:43 AM
What goes around comes around,
Barry, don't look back when you hear that sound.
What goes around comes around,
And it won't be long till it all comes down

http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/barry.gif

REDREAD
09-08-2004, 12:13 PM
RR,

How is Barry being "crapped on" or treated poorly??

He's EARNED playing time this year, but DanO is benching him the rest of the season in favor of Machado and Castro. With 3b open, Larkin and Lopez could both play. Machado and Castro do not deserve playing time over Larkin.

It's absurd to bench Larkin with the year he's had when healthy.

The excuse of "the future" is bogus. If that's the case, then why give Wilson, Castro, and arguably LaRue/Jimmez any playing time? They're not here for the long term either.

KronoRed
09-08-2004, 12:16 PM
Sorry RedRead but Larkin also is not playing regularly and was happy a few weeks ago to be just pinch hitting, and seemed UPSET! that the Reds wanted him to do some fielding practice.

REDREAD
09-08-2004, 12:16 PM
What goes around comes around,
Barry, don't look back when you hear that sound.
What goes around comes around,
And it won't be long till it all comes down



Yeah, Castro and Machado are certainly as well thought of as Stilwell and Larkin were in 1987 :rolleyes:

westofyou
09-08-2004, 12:42 PM
Yeah, Castro and Machado are certainly as well thought of as Stilwell and Larkin were in 1987 :rolleyes:

If that's what I was trying to say you'd be right.

But it isn't.

RFS62
09-08-2004, 12:44 PM
Circle of life.

westofyou
09-08-2004, 12:51 PM
Circle of life.

http://www.di.fc.ul.pt/~jpn/gv/icons/oroboros.gif

Puffy
09-08-2004, 12:57 PM
I agree.

tsj017
09-08-2004, 01:35 PM
Larkin? Selfish? NO!!! You must be joking!

(sarcasm OFF)

As noted more than once before, Larkin's exit from Cincinnati will NOT be graceful. He'll go out like Ozzie Smith did--bitter, spiteful, and in denial.

Also:


"They said they want to see Machado and Felipe Lopez splitting time at shortstop, but I think it's just their way of not letting me get out there to show what I can do this last month of the season," Larkin said. "That'll make it easier for them this offseason."

Please note that this quote did NOT appear in either of the Cincinnati papers. According to the Post and the Enquirer, Larkin was completely supportive of the decision. Whoops. He's got the local press in his pocket.

God forbid this guy ever gets anywhere near the Reds front office.

KronoRed
09-08-2004, 01:39 PM
I agree.

With?


;)

Puffy
09-08-2004, 01:50 PM
With?


;)

Actually nothing - i just wanted to post something on the basball side - why, wanna argue about it :censored:

zombie-a-go-go
09-08-2004, 02:06 PM
Actually nothing - i just wanted to post something on the basball side - why, wanna argue about it :censored:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

LvJ
09-08-2004, 02:23 PM
Actually nothing - i just wanted to post something on the basball side - why, wanna argue about it :censored:

http://www.planet-familyguy.com/characters/pics/paddy_tn.jpg

ODERED
09-08-2004, 03:05 PM
He's EARNED playing time this year, but DanO is benching him the rest of the season in favor of Machado and Castro. With 3b open, Larkin and Lopez could both play. Machado and Castro do not deserve playing time over Larkin.

It's absurd to bench Larkin with the year he's had when healthy.

The excuse of "the future" is bogus. If that's the case, then why give Wilson, Castro, and arguably LaRue/Jimmez any playing time? They're not here for the long term either.

It's time to move on. Barry is old. Mark it down, he wouldn't be playing nearly as much next year as he has this year. How many games has he played this year while being hurt? A bunch. Sure, he can get on base late in games, but what the Reds need is a SS that can play the whole game, most of the season. Not a player who comes back from each injury with a "I'm feeling better than I ever have". I really, REALLY wanted to see Barry retire as a Red (may still happen), but I can't forgive the way he robbed them blind just awhile back with that large-market salary.

Redleg75
09-08-2004, 04:30 PM
this decision is about the team and what's in the team's interest in the future -- Barry is the past -- we need to get over it and if he can't see beyond his stats and hof prospects that's his problem.

TeamBoone
09-08-2004, 05:04 PM
If Barry can play and is playing better than others in his position, he should play. The Reds players still want to WIN even though their season is all but done... believe it or not, they have pride.

Put your best on the field... do the auditions in ST.

RedsRule30
09-08-2004, 05:29 PM
I think it is a major insult benching Larkin for the final 25 games even though he is one of the best hitters on the team. So management needs to play Machado in the final 25 games to determine if he is the SS of the future? 25 games is nothing. Look at Larson. It takes at least 162 games to evaluate a player.

Also, why has Castro been stealing at-bats from Larkin all season long? I doubt Castro takes a pay cut to stay in Cincy. If 29 other teams don't make an offer to Castro, then what does that say about Castro? Is Castro a playoff caliber SS? I doubt it.

Hubba
09-08-2004, 07:51 PM
Also, why has Castro been stealing at-bats from Larkin all season long? I doubt Castro takes a pay cut to stay in Cincy. If 29 other teams don't make an offer to Castro, then what does that say about Castro? Is Castro a playoff caliber SS? I doubt it.


What are you talking about?

Larkin411
09-08-2004, 07:52 PM
I almost hope Barry switches teams next year. Maybe then I can root for a contender. I understand wanting to get Lopez some playing time but it would make more sense to put him at 3rd. Machado is nowhere near ready for the big leagues offensively, he's not even ready for Triple-A offensively(in fact that sentence could apply to Castro as well).

On a personal note, I'd like to see my favorite player actually play in what may be his last(or one of his last) seasons.

Also I take issue with the people accusing Larkin of selfishness. I think his behavior over the years has shown a distinct lack of selfishness particularly when compared with the average MLB player.

Super_Barry11
09-08-2004, 08:06 PM
Also I take issue with the people accusing Larkin of selfishness. I think his behavior over the years has shown a distinct lack of selfishness particularly when compared with the average MLB player.

:thumbup: :clap: :agreed: :clap: :thumbup:

airalex
09-08-2004, 08:32 PM
This thread seriously makes me sick to my stomach, you'd think 19 years of great service would be honored. Its almost like they are saying don't let the door hit you on the way out. As far as I know, Barry is the Reds.

CougarQuest
09-08-2004, 08:51 PM
The Reds didn't say they didn't need his services any more. It's they didn't want him starting any more the rest of the season, they want to try out the new kids and see how they handle MLB at positions they are trained for. Barry is nursing an injury still, but still capable of getting out there if really needed. I don't see what there is to get huffy about. Sounds like a logical plan to me. It's not like we are in the middle of a race to win post season play.

Is there any proof that Barry could handle 3rd base right now? Has he been taking infield practice there?

Reading between the lines, it sounds like the Reds want to see what they have and see which way Barry, Castro, Felipe, and Machago will fit in next year. Will Barry be spliting time at SS next year with Felipe or Machado, will Felipe and Machado split time at SS next year, will Barry be a utility player or will these two be a flop and we need to see if Barry will be the SS next for a majority of the games, will this show that Felipe is better suited for 3rd &/or Machado is better suited for 2nd?

Far East
09-08-2004, 09:02 PM
If the Reds are so interested in benching Larkin in favor of some un-tested infielders, then they should have kept Larson (even the most fervent Larson detractors surely agree that Brandon is still un-tested) on that same infield.

I agree that the known quantities: Larkin, Castro, Freel, and perhaps Jimenez should sacrifice some PT to give Lopez what's left of September, but Larson should have been given September also.

Playing Larson would be more consistent about sitting veterans for the sake of potential or the future.

CougarQuest
09-08-2004, 09:11 PM
If the Reds are so interested in benching Larkin in favor of some un-tested infielders, then they should have kept Larson (even the most fervent Larson detractors surely agree that Brandon is still un-tested) on that same infield.

I agree that the known quantities: Larkin, Castro, Freel, and perhaps Jimenez should sacrifice some PT to give Lopez what's left of September, but Larson should have been given September also.

Playing Larson would be more consistent about sitting veterans for the sake of potential or the future.

IMHO, Larson has proven he is toast in MLB.

REDREAD
09-08-2004, 09:23 PM
If that's what I was trying to say you'd be right.

But it isn't.

Sorry West, I misinterpreted your point..

GAC
09-08-2004, 09:24 PM
If Barry can play and is playing better than others in his position, he should play. The Reds players still want to WIN even though their season is all but done... believe it or not, they have pride.

Put your best on the field... do the auditions in ST.

But I want to see how kids like Lopez are going to do duiring the regiular season and against ML lineups. Not ST lineups that are filled with guys trying to make the roster or trying to get into shape.

Lets be realistic here. We are how many games out? Expand the roster now that we can and play some of these kids. No one is saying that Machado is the future. But it sure ain't hurting us to take a look-see at kids like this. That is all they are doing. Now is the time to be doing it. And it's not just the Reds doing it; but alot of teams around MLB, who are out of it, are doing the same thing.

The fans love and appreciate what Larkin has done during his illustrious career. No one can refute that. But I am tired of the controversy he seems to want to create these last few years. he is acting selfishly IMO, and is only thinking of his own best interests, and not the team's as a whole.

Bow out gracefully Barry is my advice.

REDREAD
09-08-2004, 09:29 PM
Only the Reds would bench a SS that made the all star team and is hitting 298 with a 355 OBP in favor of crap like Machado and Castro.

All this proves is that DanO will hurt the team to play his little power trip.

I too hope that Larkin plays somewhere else next year. The Reds don't deserve him. :mad:

REDREAD
09-08-2004, 09:30 PM
But I want to see how kids like Lopez are going to do duiring the regiular season and against ML lineups..

Lopez can play 3b.

ODERED
09-08-2004, 09:35 PM
IMHO, Larson has proven he is toast in MLB.

He has with the Reds. Then again, what's the Reds' team batting average? :MandJ:

I bet that Brandon would be a better hitter on just about any other team. He just hasn't found the right hitting coach in the big leagues, yet.

TeamBoone
09-08-2004, 10:15 PM
But I want to see how kids like Lopez are going to do duiring the regiular season and against ML lineups. Not ST lineups that are filled with guys trying to make the roster or trying to get into shape.

Lets be realistic here. We are how many games out? Expand the roster now that we can and play some of these kids. No one is saying that Machado is the future. But it sure ain't hurting us to take a look-see at kids like this. That is all they are doing. Now is the time to be doing it. And it's not just the Reds doing it; but alot of teams around MLB, who are out of it, are doing the same thing.

The fans love and appreciate what Larkin has done during his illustrious career. No one can refute that. But I am tired of the controversy he seems to want to create these last few years. he is acting selfishly IMO, and is only thinking of his own best interests, and not the team's as a whole.

Bow out gracefully Barry is my advice.

I love ya GAC, but I disagree. They should field the best team they have, especially against teams that are still in the race. And the rest of this team deserves their best chance to win, especially because of their miserable season. They've got to be humiliated suffering loss after loss after loss... to borrow a phrase, they deserve a chance "save face" during what's left of this waning, miserable season.

Yes, the minor leaguers should get a chance to play, but not every day. If I have to watch Machado again, I will scream. Why on earth should he be allowed to cut his teeth against Roger Clemons??

I still say ST is the place to audition your players.... they'll face their fare share of major league pitching in Florida.

westofyou
09-08-2004, 10:31 PM
They should field the best team they have, especially against teams that are still in the race.

Maybe they are?

Barry can't field as well as he used to, his range and arm are both below Lopez's.... who BTW sports a .287/.376/.492 line post AS game.

Chip R
09-08-2004, 10:37 PM
Hopefully this Castro in the lineup nonsense will go away once WMP is healthy.

Chip R
09-08-2004, 10:43 PM
I bet that Brandon would be a better hitter on just about any other team. He just hasn't found the right hitting coach in the big leagues, yet.If by any other team you mean Indianapolis or Buffalo or Louisville or Memphis or Nashville then I would agree with you. As for finding the right hitting coach it surely isn't because of a lack of trying. We've had 3 different hitting coaches here the last 3 seasons. Should the Reds just keep hiring hitting coach after hitting coach until they can find one that can make Brandon into a major league hitter? By the time they find one, Brandon may be ready to retire. :lol:

RFS62
09-08-2004, 11:00 PM
I can't believe anyone has watched Chamblis this year and doesn't think he's a good hitting coach.

CougarQuest
09-08-2004, 11:18 PM
I can't believe anyone has watched Chamblis this year and doesn't think he's a good hitting coach.
Send that man a BEER!

Chip R
09-08-2004, 11:19 PM
I can't believe anyone has watched Chamblis this year and doesn't think he's a good hitting coach.
Obviously he isn't since Brandon Larson still can't hit big league pitching. It sure can't be Brandon's fault. ;)

RedsRule30
09-08-2004, 11:26 PM
Larkin should play at SS and Lopez should play at 3B. Castro has no future with the Reds since he is a free agent. If the Reds outbid 29 other teams for Castro, then I will be amazed. Machado can play 2B if Jimenez is non-tendered next year.

Cedric
09-08-2004, 11:29 PM
You are joking with the outbid comment I assume?

RedsRule30
09-08-2004, 11:31 PM
Castro is worth bringing back only as a backup. I think Jimenez will get non-tendered for sure. That saves the Reds 3 million.

TeamBoone
09-09-2004, 12:02 AM
Maybe they are?

Barry can't field as well as he used to, his range and arm are both below Lopez's.... who BTW sports a .287/.376/.492 line post AS game.

Actually, I didn't necessarily mean Barry in what I wrote.

That said, you may be right. But I don't think Machado on the field or, especially, in the lineup is putting the best players on the field.

In addition, right or wrong, I'm less concerned about fielding than hitting at this point.

TeamBoone
09-09-2004, 12:05 AM
I, for one, think Jiminez does ok at second base and is more than ok in the lineup. Before Machado is put anywhere, he needs to earn it.

And Chambliss better work with him a whole lot before he gets a daily slot in the lineup.

ODERED
09-09-2004, 01:17 AM
If by any other team you mean Indianapolis or Buffalo or Louisville or Memphis or Nashville then I would agree with you. As for finding the right hitting coach it surely isn't because of a lack of trying. We've had 3 different hitting coaches here the last 3 seasons. Should the Reds just keep hiring hitting coach after hitting coach until they can find one that can make Brandon into a major league hitter? By the time they find one, Brandon may be ready to retire. :lol:

You have a great point. Brandon's met a lot of hitting coaches. The problem I have is that I don't think he has met the right one, yet. Just because Chambliss comes from the Yankees doesn't make him Mr. Godalmighty Hitting Coach. Remember, the Yankees (what everyone is beginning to see now) are in phase 1 of their slide into mediocrity.

Why? They traded away their farm talent for expensive stars, and now those stars are aging and the teams those stars came from don't want them back. The Yankees have been great because of the hitters they acquired from elsewhere, not because Chambliss polished them. The Reds really need to go out and spend the money on the best coaches and management possible, but they won't. They don't have the money.

You get what you pay for, so to speak. That is why I think that Brandon, should he be lucky enough to land on another big league club in North America or Canada, could turn into something.

Another thing to think about is that more than one player (if you believe the posters on here who say they talk to the players) in the Reds organization has said he doesn't like the front office. Could that be a problem of Brandon's, him letting something going on off the field affect what he does on the field?

TeamBoone
09-09-2004, 01:57 AM
Brandon's met a lot of hitting coaches. The problem I have is that I don't think he has met the right one, yet.

A guy who's supposedly good enough to be in the big show shouldn't need to go through a bevy of hitting coaches. Isn't it the BIG LEAGUE hitting coach's job to tweak a batter's weak points, rather than have to teach them how to hit at the big league level?

If all those coaches haven't tweaked him by now, I'm afraid it's to late for him to be tweaked. Though I do wish him good luck, because I like him.

Word of the day = tweaked. :)

RedsRule30
09-09-2004, 02:24 AM
Machado will be on the roster next season for sure. He is out of options. I expect him to be a utility player or maybe replace Jimenez to save the Reds money. The Reds pitching sucks and needs help.

Far East
09-09-2004, 04:57 AM
I think Jimenez will get non-tendered for sure. That saves the Reds 3 million.
Consideration of non-tenuring Jimenez reminds us just how the small market teams like the Reds are forced to operate.

Any big leaguer of D'Angelo's calibre is cheap at $3 million.

REDREAD
09-09-2004, 09:54 AM
Machado will be on the roster next season for sure. He is out of options. I expect him to be a utility player or maybe replace Jimenez to save the Reds money. The Reds pitching sucks and needs help.

Yeah, and I think Lopez is out of options too. Not sure about Olmedo, but he
might be out of options as well. That might be your 3 middle infielders next year. :yikes:

I'm also guessing that Jimmeniz is going to be sacrificed to "meet the budget". Not happy about it either. But since they were unwilling to pay Walker in the 3 million range, I doubt they will pay Jimmeniz that much either. :angry:

princeton
09-09-2004, 10:42 AM
Any big leaguer of D'Angelo's calibre is cheap at $3 million.

not cheap. Actual value, perhaps.

The Reds need to find players that play above their contracts, while spending big on impact players. Jimenez isn't an impact player

you can keep a few players that play as well as they're paid, but they should fill holes, not create excesses. A pitcher that not only makes $3mill but pitches like he should make $3mill would be a better fit for the Reds

Puffy
09-09-2004, 11:34 AM
Hopefully this Castro in the lineup nonsense will go away once WMP is healthy.

Yup, if Barry sits because Lopez takes away his AB's then I say bravo, lets see what Lopez can do, cause I have always said the kid can play and will be a force soon.

If Barry sits so Castro can play everyday then I really have to question everything. Juan Castro needs to be on the bench starting once a week (or if I had my druthers once a month), not taking at bats away from better players.

Puffy
09-09-2004, 11:35 AM
Send that man a BEER!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/815381/Sam.JPG

GAC
09-09-2004, 12:24 PM
I love ya GAC, but I disagree. They should field the best team they have, especially against teams that are still in the race. And the rest of this team deserves their best chance to win, especially because of their miserable season. They've got to be humiliated suffering loss after loss after loss... to borrow a phrase, they deserve a chance "save face" during what's left of this waning, miserable season.

Yes, the minor leaguers should get a chance to play, but not every day. If I have to watch Machado again, I will scream. Why on earth should he be allowed to cut his teeth against Roger Clemons??

I still say ST is the place to audition your players.... they'll face their fare share of major league pitching in Florida.

I love you too TB :p: but we've been running our best team out there for the vast majority of the season, and where has it gotten us? We're only talking about the last 20+ games in a season where we are 29.5 games out.

And I think the reason they are spot playing Machado is to see if he is going to be a viable replacement for Castro (insert jokes here), who is a FA at season's end.

Barry Larkin, who does do well when he is in there... but can't seem to stay healthy...needs to bow out gracefully IMO. Him being in there is not gonna make that big of a difference IMO. But playing kids like Lopez AT SS is important for us right now. That is the job he may be heir-apparent for (not 3B as some seem to want).

tsj017
09-09-2004, 01:57 PM
I have trouble believing this line of thinking:

"Barry's my favorite player, and he's been with the Reds a long time, so therefore he's earned the right to play shortstop as long as he wants."

In that case, he may well be our shortstop for years--until he's literally physically unable to take the field.

He's 40 YEARS OLD. Not many major leaguers are 40, and most of them are designated hitters. They're certainly not shortstops, a postion that calls for youth more than any other.

We gave him what he wanted 4 years ago, with that bloated 3-year contract--which would, according to everyone, "allow him to finish his career as a Red". We gave him what he wanted last year, when he wanted one more season and to "finish his career as a Red". We even scheduled Barry Larkin Night, when his number would most likely have been retired.

And it still wasn't enough. Time to pull the plug on this guy.

Good luck with that "rooting for a contender" thing, because any team that signs an injury-prone 40-year-old shortstop for the money he'll probably expect is most likely NOT going to be a contender. And that includes the Reds.

REDREAD
09-09-2004, 02:30 PM
And it still wasn't enough. Time to pull the plug on this guy.

Good luck with that "rooting for a contender" thing, because any team that signs an injury-prone 40-year-old shortstop for the money he'll probably expect is most likely NOT going to be a contender. And that includes the Reds.

Well, he was good enough to make the allstar team, hit 298, and have a 355 obp. I could see your point if he was only hitting .200.

Actually, Barry is only making something like 700k this year. If he's willing to sign for a similiar amount next year, someone will take him. I mean, that's about what we signed Vanderwall for this year, and we only expected him to pinch hit and occasionally spot start in the OF. Barry can certainly do that (pinch hit and spot start).

I do agree that a team isn't likely to sign him with the expectation that he'll start 160 games at SS.

GAC
09-10-2004, 06:58 AM
I want Barry Larkin gone...banished into a rich retirement community in Florida. And I don't want him in our FO either. Not after the antics he has pulled these last few years, and always running to the media when he has a beef with this FO.

He has had an illustrious career, but he has been his own worst enemy IMO.

He can then co-write a column with Hal McCoy on how he was abused and taken advantage of all these years as a Red. But the pay was excellent. :D

On the field...he was one of the most unselfish players I have ever had the privilege to see.

Off the field (and these last several years).... I question his motives.