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KittyDuran
10-12-2004, 02:12 PM
Per WLW right now... Furball might have him on Sports Talk tonight.... O'Brien will have a news conference.

redsfan30
10-12-2004, 02:14 PM
:(

KittyDuran
10-12-2004, 02:15 PM
O'Brien conference is set for 4pm.

KronoRed
10-12-2004, 02:16 PM
Well..

That's that.

Sweetstop
10-12-2004, 02:19 PM
:( :cry: :confused: :thumbdown

RosieRed
10-12-2004, 02:20 PM
:thumbdown :thumbdown :thumbdown

:( :cry: :(

princeton
10-12-2004, 02:20 PM
hopefully he stays in the game, and goes now to a better place...

iammrred
10-12-2004, 02:21 PM
:)

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 02:21 PM
Not shocking

....Sad, but not shocking.

I wish this could have ended better, but I put blame on both sides....him for running his mouth and cancelling the day they had planned for him to leave on a graceful note

The organization for just saying the hell with him and telling him to get lost

A sorry end to a great career in Cincinnati

westofyou
10-12-2004, 02:22 PM
If I am not worth the wooing, I am surely not worth the winning.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Playadlc
10-12-2004, 02:23 PM
I don't understand the news conference. Why would we hold a news conference saying that we aren't resigning someone?

RedFanAlways1966
10-12-2004, 02:23 PM
Will Uncle Carl step up to the plate... again?!? :mhcky21:

The sooner a decision is made, the better... for the REDS, Barry, the fans and anyone else who gives a crap about this "situation".

I wish Barry all the best... wherever/whatever he goes/does. I will always think of him as a REDS player... like Rose, Perez, Foster and Morgan.

:larkin:

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 02:24 PM
The explanation behind this move should be quite informative :rolleyes:

It'll be the old we're moving on speech....not sure why we have to hear it

westofyou
10-12-2004, 02:24 PM
I don't understand the news conference. Why would we hold a news conference saying that we aren't resinging someone.

Stave off bad press, a good defense is a good offense.

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 02:24 PM
hopefully he stays in the game, and goes now to a better place...

My thoughts exactly. My favorite player of all time. He deserved much better than this, but it's an opportunity where he can move on to an organization that will appreciate him as either a player, coach, front office guy or whatever.

So, I'm happy for him. Why he was so loyal to this crappy organization is beyond me.

redsfan30
10-12-2004, 02:25 PM
Now that I think about it, haven't we been here twice before? What are the chances that in the next week, Uncle Carl steps up and signs him to a one year deal? Hopefully good.

westofyou
10-12-2004, 02:25 PM
Why he was so loyal to this crappy organization is beyond me.

Because they were his favorite team.

Are they yours?

johngalt
10-12-2004, 02:29 PM
The explanation behind this move should be quite informative :rolleyes:

It'll be the old we're moving on speech....not sure why we have to hear it

If all they did was issue a release saying Larkin wasn't being re-signed, you'd come on here and say that an issue like this deserves to be addressed and deserves more than just a statement.

Reds4Life
10-12-2004, 02:29 PM
It might not seem like it, but the Reds made the right choice. I'm sure Barry will catch on somewhere else.

johngalt
10-12-2004, 02:31 PM
My thoughts: good luck with all those teams that are supposedly looking to bring in a 41-year-old shortstop who wants to play regularly but can't.

Larkin is and always will be one of the greatest Reds of all-time, but the last 3-4 years he has really dragged himself down both on and off the field.

TeamCasey
10-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Larkin Won't Be Coming Back to Reds

JOE KAY

Associated Press


CINCINNATI - Barry Larkin will not be offered another contract by the Cincinnati Reds, ending his 19-year career with his hometown team, he told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

The shortstop said he was informed of the team's decision in a phone call earlier in the day.

"Nothing really surprises me anymore," Larkin said from his home in Orlando, Fla.

Larkin, 40, grew up in Cincinnati and spent his entire career with the Reds, developing into one of the most prominent players in their history. He helped the team win a World Series in 1990 and won the NL's Most Valuable Player award in 1995, the last time the Reds made the playoffs.

Injuries had limited him in recent years, and he decided to make the 2004 season his last. But a good season - he hit .289 and made the All-Star team - prompted him to reconsider and ask for one more season.

The Reds had no immediate comment.

remdog
10-12-2004, 02:32 PM
Drat! :(

Rem

RosieRed
10-12-2004, 02:33 PM
I simply can't believe the FO didn't know they would do this before the end of the season. It would have been so much simpler if they had just come out with the news earlier.

Doc. Scott
10-12-2004, 02:34 PM
I'm more interested in the "why". Larkin surely won't admit that it's because he balked at his role-to-be... if that's why. I guess he's entitled to be hurt if the Reds simply declined. Will they at least offer him a role in the organization when he's done playing?

TeamBoone
10-12-2004, 02:34 PM
They just announced it on a local channel. News conference at 4 pm. They said he is going to pursue other teams, but the Reds were his first choice.

I sure do hope someone hires him. Even better, I wish he'd be hired by the Reds in a non-player capacity... whether or not he'd accept that, rather than playing, is anybody's guess. But I think he'd at least consider it.

Chip R
10-12-2004, 02:35 PM
All good things must come to an end. :(

Hopefully Barry can now begin learning to play other positions since, if he does catch on with another team, he'll more than likely be used as a utility infielder.

CougarQuest
10-12-2004, 02:37 PM
I wish Barry would have stuck with the original plan; had his day and retired. Barry had a great year and should have gone out that way. I really fear for Barry what is going to come next year. He's going to continue to have problems with his abdominal wall muscles. He's going to have to play as a role player, for another team, and go through that pain, just to say he played another year and maybe pad some of his stats.

Kc61
10-12-2004, 02:41 PM
Larkin Won't Be Coming Back to Reds

JOE KAY

Associated Press


CINCINNATI - Barry Larkin will not be offered another contract by the Cincinnati Reds, ending his 19-year career with his hometown team, he told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

The shortstop said he was informed of the team's decision in a phone call earlier in the day.

"Nothing really surprises me anymore," Larkin said from his home in Orlando, Fla.

Larkin, 40, grew up in Cincinnati and spent his entire career with the Reds, developing into one of the most prominent players in their history. He helped the team win a World Series in 1990 and won the NL's Most Valuable Player award in 1995, the last time the Reds made the playoffs.

Injuries had limited him in recent years, and he decided to make the 2004 season his last. But a good season - he hit .289 and made the All-Star team - prompted him to reconsider and ask for one more season.

The Reds had no immediate comment.

Good for the Reds. The right decision. You don't win with 41 year old shortstops. Larkin's quote, "nothing really surprises me anymore," is an unnecessary swipe at the team. Enough with the sour grapes already.

WVRed
10-12-2004, 02:43 PM
Barry should have just called it quits. I doubt very many teams would be looking for a 41 year old starting SS.

A sad day in Reds history, but :thumbup: to the front office for making the right decision.

lollipopcurve
10-12-2004, 02:43 PM
I believe this is the correct choice per Larkin the player. He doesn't offer much as a utility guy (never learned another position, believes he can still play semi-regularly, i.e., at SS). Hopefully down the road they offer him a role in the organization -- but they will have to be sure he's not carrying a chip on his shoulder.

One of the 5 greatest Reds ever, who, in my puny opinion, should have called it quits this year and had his "Barry Larkin Day" in front of a pretty full GAB. It was a joy to watch him this year, while he was going good.

So many of them hang on too long.

princeton
10-12-2004, 02:44 PM
first sign that 2005 isn't really this week's plan, it was last week's plan

tsj017
10-12-2004, 02:47 PM
:gac:

:thumbup:

:clap:

:rotflmao: :smokin: :rockband: :usa:

What the heck; make it a double, barkeep!

:gac:

LincolnparkRed
10-12-2004, 02:48 PM
I don't know how to feel one hand: He misses way too many games, wouldn't go on the DL in July but couldn't play. Complains once healthy that he can't play. Wages his own pr war on the FO.

On the other: Was the face of the Reds for the 90's. Can still field the position and can still be dangerous hitting.

I imagine he will catch on with someone, just hoping the team is not in the NL central

RosieRed
10-12-2004, 02:49 PM
I've said it so many times before, but I can't really remember this team without Larkin on it. This is a sad day to me. :(

Best wishes Barry.

Sweetstop
10-12-2004, 02:50 PM
Seg Dennison interviewed him by phone on WLW. He sounded down...said he was disappointed...not bitter or angry...just disappointed. O'Brien and Miley called him 40 min or so ago and told him they would not be offering him a contract and asked if he had any questions. Barry said no and that, as they say, was that.

princeton
10-12-2004, 03:01 PM
I've said it so many times before, but I can't really remember this team without Larkin on it. This is a sad day to me. :(


welcome to Juan Castro's team

westofyou
10-12-2004, 03:04 PM
Richard:
Well, I think time is like a burrito. Sometimes it just folds over on itself and one part touches the other.

http://www.deadballart.com/redszone/honus.gif

PuffyPig
10-12-2004, 03:04 PM
With Lopez/Machado/Freel/Jimenez manning the middle infield, there really isn't any room for an often injured SS who's 41. While it's sad, larkin would not make the 2005 Reds a better team.

iammrred
10-12-2004, 03:09 PM
welcome to Juan Castro's team

Just like the old times... when Larkin was on the DL.

Tony Cloninger
10-12-2004, 03:10 PM
Princeton why do you keep insisting that Castro will be back?

I just do not see it....unless it's at a lot less than he makes now.

johngalt
10-12-2004, 03:11 PM
Just like the old times... when Larkin was on the DL.

Yeah, it's not like this changes anything really. He won't be playing but the difference is we won't be paying him now too.

Danny Serafini
10-12-2004, 03:16 PM
In a sentimental way it's pretty sad. I would've liked to have seen him play a 20th season for the Reds. But the more I thought about what the team should look like next year, the harder it was to find a spot for him. Sad day, but the right call.

Marty and Joe
10-12-2004, 03:17 PM
I agree this is the right move for the product on the field. Would also like to see him take a front office job with the Reds and stay in the organization.

Great career with the Reds, Barry. Thanks for the memories.
:gac:

princeton
10-12-2004, 03:19 PM
Princeton why do you keep insisting that Castro will be back.

it'll be interesting to see if a quiet, less than mediocre player that knows his role won't be more acceptable to management

jmcclain19
10-12-2004, 03:21 PM
I'm upset because I think both the Reds and Barry are in the wrong.

Barry is in the wrong for forcing the teams hand. The Reds have to play for the future.

The Reds were wrong for leaving their captain hanging out to dry when it came to an answer.

I don't like either group when it comes to this situation.

and BTW - ESPN is now reporting that Omar Vizquel won't have his option excercised by the Indians.

Today is the end of an era for Ohio SS.

BrooklynRedz
10-12-2004, 03:27 PM
first sign that 2005 isn't really this week's plan, it was last week's plan

I don't get this comment. How can anyone view the decision not to sign a 41-yr-old, oft injured shortstop (who can't play any other positions) as a bad thing?

And for the Castro comments, please. The irrational Barry sentimentality is so overboard to be laughable. He's a big boy and will fit nicely in this bed of his own making.

DunnersGrl44
10-12-2004, 03:27 PM
:thumbdown I really enjoyed watching Barry Larkin
I'm not upset that he is gone, cause he is 41 and he was too old to play a full season. But are any of the other options ready?... I don't think they are. At least keep Barry around til we have another option!

princeton
10-12-2004, 03:35 PM
I don't get this comment.

it's simple. Young teams looking to compete immediately look for cheap, veteran players like Larkin with a history of success.

Young teams looking to build for years beyond devote a lot of roster spots to unproven young players, and to players that they hope to deal for other unproven young players. This is the approach that the Reds'll take.

I'm not saying that it's not the best approach for the Reds to take. But 2005 is not the goal, it's simply a far-flung hope.

Here's the precise quote from last week: "I would say that 2005 is the focus," O'Brien said. "To make progress for 2005 is the goal. It isn't that we've lost focus for the long-term, far from it."

Far from it, indeed. I'd argue that this move signifies the long-term to be both goal and focus. We'll go with worse players now in hopes that they'll become productive later, when Dunn and Kearns are elsewhere

PuffyPig
10-12-2004, 03:44 PM
Lopez (and even Machado) are way better options at SS than larkin at this stage of his career.

I'm convinced that we are not going to improve enough unless our middle infield defense improves.

I'm not certain that our pitching is really as bad as it appeared to be last year. After seeing hit after hit sneaking through the infield, I'm not all that sure that a great SS/2B combo couldn't save a run a game, which makes our pitching all of a sudden pretty good.

Krusty
10-12-2004, 03:47 PM
Decisions based on sentimental feelings has hurt this club the last four years.

Thanks for the memories Barry, but the time has come to move on.

Kc61
10-12-2004, 03:49 PM
Princeton, I don't believe for a minute that Larkin would be pleased as a utility man on the Reds. He might accept that role elsewhere, but in Cincy he will simply whine every time he doesn't start.

I do think his presence has been a hindrence because every year it looks like he is the shortstop; no other starting shortstop is acquired; no young kid is given the position. Then Larkin gets hurt and the team is left with backups and minor leaguers. This is the pattern and it has to end.

If Larkin had turned himself into an outfielder, like Shawon Dunston did at the end of his career, it might make sense to carry him. He can still hit pretty well. But he just can't be the shortstop anymore, and that is his only position.

As for Castro, he is an entirely different player. He handles every infield position well. He is not an offensive player, but a veteran stopgap all over the field. I think he has value and wouldn't mind his return, although I wouldn't mind seeing Olmedo get a shot at Castro's role.

Whether the team is truly interested in 2005 remains to be seen.

remdog
10-12-2004, 03:49 PM
I would agree that 2005 is not the goal. Signing Miley was also an indication of that as he has (so far) shown that as a major league manager he's a pretty good minor league instructor.

Based on these two moves, I wouldn't expect to see the Reds spending much in the free agent market or make any blockbuster trades (unless they are getting 'prospects' back).

Hope I'm wrong but......(shrug)

Rem

princeton
10-12-2004, 04:03 PM
Princeton, I don't believe for a minute that Larkin would be pleased as a utility man on the Reds. He might accept that role elsewhere, but in Cincy he will simply whine every time he doesn't start.

I do think his presence has been a hindrence because every year it looks like he is the shortstop; no other starting shortstop is acquired; no young kid is given the position. Then Larkin gets hurt and the team is left with backups and minor leaguers. This is the pattern and it has to end.

If Larkin had turned himself into an outfielder, like Shawon Dunston did at the end of his career, it might make sense to carry him. He can still hit pretty well. But he just can't be the shortstop anymore, and that is his only position.

As for Castro, he is an entirely different player. He handles every infield position well. He is not an offensive player, but a veteran stopgap all over the field. I think he has value and wouldn't mind his return, although I wouldn't mind seeing Olmedo get a shot at Castro's role.

Whether the team is truly interested in 2005 remains to be seen.

he said that he'd accept a lesser role and play other positions if he got to play semi-regularly. I think that he expects a meritocracy in which the better player gets on the field. Most ballplayers want to be on such a team. Since the goal isn't 2005, the Reds won't be doing this. Machado is out of options, and we didn't care to risk Barry beating his pants off this spring.

Reds4Life
10-12-2004, 04:12 PM
he said that he'd accept a lesser role and play other positions if he got to play semi-regularly.

Yeah, he also said he was going to retire at the end of the 04' season. What Barry says isn't an indication of what he will actually do.

WVRedsFan
10-12-2004, 04:15 PM
Lopez (and even Machado) are way better options at SS than larkin at this stage of his career.

I'm convinced that we are not going to improve enough unless our middle infield defense improves.

I'm not certain that our pitching is really as bad as it appeared to be last year. After seeing hit after hit sneaking through the infield, I'm not all that sure that a great SS/2B combo couldn't save a run a game, which makes our pitching all of a sudden pretty good.

Good comment and something I've been thinking for awhile. As I watch balls that other teams' infield get to, I keep thinking that our infield could be better defensively which would lead to less runners on base. And I think you can't leave Jiminez out of this, either. He's terribly slow on reaction time. Take away a run a game and you probably win ten more games. That wouldn't have been too bad of a season.

Phhhl
10-12-2004, 04:16 PM
I'm not sure it was the wrong decision, but to have this mumbling imbecilic coroporate stooge O'Brien basically fire Barry Larkin makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. :dflynn:

lollipopcurve
10-12-2004, 04:18 PM
I'll take Freel -- nay, half a Freel -- over Larkin as the utility guy anyday. If Barry had truly been willing to "expand his versatility," we would have seen it last year. It's been a pattern. Under Boone they asked him to consider the OF, and while he gave the idea lip service, nothing ever happened. I think at this point Larkin is fixated on personal goals he can achieve as a SS.

I actually think Castro will make a good mentor to Lopez and Machado, if both are here. Larkin likely would have been a problem, sulking over time on the bench.

Larkin411
10-12-2004, 04:20 PM
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I hope Barry plays for another team next season. I don't really see the Reds going anywhere near the playoffs for a long time(O'Brien ain't exactly Paul DePodesta) but hopefully Barry can be a back-up SS/in-fielder for a contender. Although I just like watching him play, so he could join the Kansas City Royals and I'd still be happy.

flyer85
10-12-2004, 04:21 PM
I wish Barry would have stuck with the original plan; had his day and retired. Barry had a great year and should have gone out that way.

The Reds have went through this for the last 2 years with Larkin. I don't think there was any interest in repeating it a 3rd time.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 04:21 PM
Did O'Brien say anthing? I know he used a lot of words, but did he actually say anything?

I almost fell asleep

flyer85
10-12-2004, 04:22 PM
Would Larkin take a minor league deal to play with another team?

WVRedsFan
10-12-2004, 04:24 PM
Did O'Brien say anthing? I know he used a lot of words, but did he actually say anything?

I almost fell asleep

Was it a long Press Conference? Living out here in the sticks means unless I get the news here, i don't get it ;)

flyer85
10-12-2004, 04:24 PM
Machado is out of options, and we didn't care to risk Barry beating his pants off this spring.

Barry is the past ... Machado MAY be the future.

Having or not having Larkin on the 2005 Reds will NOT be the difference between winning and losing.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 04:26 PM
Was it a long Press Conference? Living out here in the sticks means unless I get the news here, i don't get it ;)


Longer than I thought....about 15 or 16 minutes or so

BrooklynRedz
10-12-2004, 04:27 PM
he said that he'd accept a lesser role and play other positions if he got to play semi-regularly. I think that he expects a meritocracy in which the better player gets on the field. Most ballplayers want to be on such a team. Since the goal isn't 2005, the Reds won't be doing this. Machado is out of options, and we didn't care to risk Barry beating his pants off this spring.

No offense, but Larkin couldn't stay healthy enough to beat out Ray Olmedo, let alone Lopez.

princeton
10-12-2004, 04:29 PM
No offense, but Larkin couldn't stay healthy enough to beat out Ray Olmedo, let alone Lopez.

no offense, but Larkin beat out several shortstops for the All Star team

Cedric
10-12-2004, 04:33 PM
Has there ever been a more clueless organization in terms of pr and the like? It seems they always look bad even if they are right because of the way they approach their fans and the media.

iammrred
10-12-2004, 04:34 PM
no offense, but Larkin beat out several shortstops for the All Star team

Beat out? He was handed the selection on a silver retirement platter.

Cedric
10-12-2004, 04:36 PM
And it's amazing how quick and easy people are to turn on players. It's one thing to approach this as good for the team that he isn't back, it's a whole other thing to be cheering and forget completely what Barry did for this organization. I'm glad you guys just throw things to the curb when you are done with them.

johngalt
10-12-2004, 04:36 PM
no offense, but Larkin beat out several shortstops for the All Star team

It's not like he was competing with the Jeters, Tejadas, Garciaparras, etc. of the world in the NL this year.

Besides Edgar Renteria and Jack Wilson, the NL shortstop crop was nonexistant.

princeton
10-12-2004, 04:37 PM
Beat out? He was handed the selection on a silver retirement platter.

You're definitely the Mr Red that this organization deserves

johngalt
10-12-2004, 04:37 PM
Longer than I thought....about 15 or 16 minutes or so

The reason is lasted that long was because guys like Daugherty and Popovich kept asking the same questions over and over again trying to get O'Brien to badmouth Barry or say something "quoteworthy" for their stories.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 04:38 PM
That's their job

BrooklynRedz
10-12-2004, 04:39 PM
no offense, but Larkin beat out several shortstops for the All Star team

1) he was named as a sentimental pick in what was thought to be his final year

and

2) he was injured for much of the second half of the season.

This is the same thinking that resulted in Jimmah Haynes getting a two-year deal after a so-so season. It's time this organization expect more out of their players.

iammrred
10-12-2004, 04:40 PM
You're definitely the Mr Red that this organization deserves

Even Mr. Red knew it was time to cut ties with Barry. Hell, that idiot Gapper knew too.

flyer85
10-12-2004, 04:40 PM
The reason is lasted that long was because guys like Daugherty and Popovich kept asking the same questions over and over again trying to get O'Brien to badmouth Barry or say something "quoteworthy" for their stories.

They shouldn't have any trouble getting Barry to say something "quoteworthy".

Cedric
10-12-2004, 04:40 PM
Comparing Jimmy Haynes contract with this decision about Barry Larkin is just stupid. Please give me even a little bit of correlation.

princeton
10-12-2004, 04:41 PM
It's time this organization expect more out of their players.

more than making the All-Star game?

I'd settle for that

Chip R
10-12-2004, 04:42 PM
That's their job
Yellow journalism at its finest. :rolleyes:

Cedric
10-12-2004, 04:42 PM
Can someone please explain to me why it's so important the Reds cut ties with Barry Larkin. Is it that important that Juan Castro stays on the team? Because I can't find where Barry Larkin is holding back playing time or a roster spot from anyone worth half a nickel.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 04:43 PM
Yellow journalism at its finest. :rolleyes:


It's all about the quotes -- don't have much of a story without the quotes ;)

TeamCasey
10-12-2004, 04:43 PM
I missed the conference. Anyone want to summarize?

iammrred
10-12-2004, 04:44 PM
That's their job

What? To get someone to say one thing that they can take out of context to jazz up an otherwise straightforward and completely sensible press conference?

johngalt
10-12-2004, 04:46 PM
That's their job

Then don't rag O'Brien for how long the press conference was.

Cedric
10-12-2004, 04:46 PM
Are you John Galt or John Allen?

44Magnum
10-12-2004, 04:47 PM
Good. They are far better off without Larkin.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 04:48 PM
Then don't rag O'Brien for how long the press conference was.

I wasn't....I was just surprised it was that long -- I wasn't sure what sort of format it was going to be going into it - I thought it was just going to be a statement or something at first more than a press conference

Cedric
10-12-2004, 04:48 PM
Yeah, Larkin had been holding this team back from winning for years.

johngalt
10-12-2004, 04:49 PM
Are you John Galt or John Allen?

Definitely not John Allen. I wouldn't touch that job with a ten-foot pole.

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Because they were his favorite team.

Are they yours?

For now, but they've been pressing their luck the last 4 years :MandJ:

But I don't have to work for them. That's what amazes me. Larkin was THAT loyal, even to an organization led by Allen that doesn't appreciate him one iota.

It's a compliment to lark, not a slam.

flyer85
10-12-2004, 04:50 PM
Can someone please explain to me why it's so important the Reds cut ties with Barry Larkin?

He is the past, albeit a good one. The future at SS lies somewhere other than Larkin.

Sentimentality is the only reason to keep him around.

Redsland
10-12-2004, 04:54 PM
They shouldn't have any trouble getting Barry to say something "quoteworthy".
If the quote includes the phrase "it's a joke," or "that's fine," then you must all bow before me. :notworthy

If the quote includes both, I want FCB's kid. :)

Unassisted
10-12-2004, 04:55 PM
O'Brien was hired to steer this team in a new direction. This is a move in that new direction.

There is a lot of time this offseason to pick up a new shortstop and I'm not going to expend energy complaining about this move or its ramifications until I see who is the starting SS is in 2005.

bomarl1969
10-12-2004, 04:56 PM
Good. They are far better off without Larkin.

Funny thing to me the Reds were in first place the beginning of the year when LArkin was playing on an everyday basis.

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 04:58 PM
Beat out? He was handed the selection on a silver retirement platter.

I can't locate his stats quickly, but IIRC, around his selection he had a very solid 350+ OBP and other good stats. Only 1 or 2 errors.
It was on merit, don't rewrite history.
If you think he was handed it, who deserved the slot more?

traderumor
10-12-2004, 05:10 PM
I can't locate his stats quickly, but IIRC, around his selection he had a very solid 350+ OBP and other good stats. Only 1 or 2 errors.
It was on merit, don't rewrite history.
If you think he was handed it, who deserved the slot more?

C'mon, REDREAD and Princeton, surely you don't think Larkin was chosen to the AS game based on merit? That is rewriting history. He was picked because it was his last year (horse) and then he said "cancel my retirement, I'm an All-Star baby" (cart)

Again, we are debating the 25th player on the Reds roster, Larkin over Castro
:sleep:

flyer85
10-12-2004, 05:13 PM
Again, we are debating the 25th player on the Reds roster, Larkin over Castro
:sleep:

I hope we have seen the last of Castro as well. What's the point of a 30 something utility player that can't hit?

iammrred
10-12-2004, 05:14 PM
I can't locate his stats quickly, but IIRC, around his selection he had a very solid 350+ OBP and other good stats. Only 1 or 2 errors.
It was on merit, don't rewrite history.
If you think he was handed it, who deserved the slot more?


He was probably the fourth-best shortstop in the bunch, behind Renteria, Wilson and Izturis (Izturis may have had more errors, but he was a much better defensive shortstop).

However, there were many snubs at other positions (Overbay or even Dunn, for example) in which the spot would have been better used.

Actually, I have no problem having a sentimental/final sign off pick each year, and seeing how people thought it was Larkin's final year, I suppose it makes sense. However, he didn't earn it with strictly his 2004 performance (although it was in no way a bad one).

redsfan4445
10-12-2004, 05:17 PM
lets see.. it wasnt about the money. but he was hitting near .300 all season until his injury, thenthey say they havent made any decision on CAstro, but will have to keep 2 young Shortstops for next season, not to mention we have no veterans off the bench with LArkin, Cruz and Vanderwall now gone.. sure looks like they are going in the right direction,, in the direction of "Cheap".. wait til 2006 will be the cry in spring training.. sad

princeton
10-12-2004, 05:18 PM
I hope we have seen the last of Castro as well. What's the point of a 30 something utility player that can't hit?

he doesn't complain, just takes his meds and watches the television and goes to bed at the right time

flyer85
10-12-2004, 05:19 PM
lets see.. it wasnt about the money. but he was hitting near .300 all season until his injury, thenthey say they havent made any decision on CAstro, but will have to keep 2 young Shortstops for next season, not to mention we have no veterans off the bench with LArkin, Cruz and Vanderwall now gone.. sure looks like they are going in the right direction,, in the direction of "Cheap".. wait til 2006 will be the cry in spring training.. sad

Wow, we and to think we could have a winner if we just brought back the above triumvirate.

flyer85
10-12-2004, 05:20 PM
he doesn't complain, just takes his meds and watches the television and goes to bed at the right time

Probably doesn't fart and then fan the covers either.

BrooklynRedz
10-12-2004, 05:25 PM
Comparing Jimmy Haynes contract with this decision about Barry Larkin is just stupid. Please give me even a little bit of correlation.

Actually, I don't think so. Haynes' 2-yr deal was for a performance that few if any thought he could duplicate...and had the Reds done a modicum of research into the data they could have saved themselves that financial headache. Those doubters were proven right. Any contract given Larkin would be on the premise that his first-half results would be attainable and sustainable...which nearly anyone can agree is not possible.

Not only does Barry not not make sense in the field, but he's hardly done much for morale in the clubhouse with his negative comments about the FO. People like to complain that this team has ZERO ability in public relations dept and I would argue that getting rid of Larkin just may be a step to correct that. Is he the reason the Reds have struggled? No. Not by himself. But he is part of a bigger problem which I would identify as a culture of displeasure that has bred itself into the fabric of this club. After all the good that we saw from this club in the last month, month and a half, it's really disappointing to hear Larkin denegrate the FO and future of the club in a presser he called following his final game.

Barry Larkin will always be one of my top-5 Reds...but it's time for the club to move on. Players get old and cranky.

IslandRed
10-12-2004, 05:26 PM
he doesn't complain, just takes his meds and watches the television and goes to bed at the right time

The Reds can scratch up a non-complaining utility guy for the league minimum, though. No need to pay veteran's wages for essentially the same non-production we can get out of, say, Olmedo.

princeton
10-12-2004, 05:32 PM
he is part of a bigger problem which I would identify as a culture of displeasure that has bred itself into the fabric of this club.

Agreed. get rid of all players that want to compete for victories, to see the best players playing, to improve their teammates, and will be displeased to see the club run in a counterdirection. Nasty, nasty influences.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2004, 05:34 PM
What's funny is they talk about it's time to give the younger guys the opportunity to play, which is fine (however, Larkin not having a role for this club doesn't make a ton of sense)....but then they say guys like Edwin Encarnacion are too young to be in the majors


...kinda contradicts itself, don't you think?

Raisor
10-12-2004, 05:39 PM
I can't locate his stats quickly, but IIRC, around his selection he had a very solid 350+ OBP and other good stats. Only 1 or 2 errors.
It was on merit, don't rewrite history.
If you think he was handed it, who deserved the slot more?

Larkin was 11th in Runs Created for SS, pre-asb this year.

As for who deserved it more, let's take a look at K. Matsui,

Runs Created
Matsui 51.0
Larkin 33.7

RC/27
Matsui 5.14
Larkin 4.59

RC/TPA
Matsui 0.130
Larkin 0.119

OBP
Matsui .336
Larkin .344

SLG
Matsui .411
Larkin .403

OPS
Matsui .747
Larkin .747

Matsui's 17.3 more created runs before the asb is enough to show that he deserved it more, imo.

BrooklynRedz
10-12-2004, 05:45 PM
Agreed. get rid of all players that want to compete for victories, to see the best players playing, to improve their teammates, and will be displeased to see the club run in a counterdirection. Nasty, nasty influences.

You know what, if I thought for a minute that Barry Larkin's top priority of the past couple seasons was the number of victories, then I might agree with you. But after the umpteenth article where Barry offered up nothing but negative comments about the FO, I have a hard to time believing he's driven by much more than petty differences of opinion.

Like I said, I like Barry, but the syrup-y sweet, deluded sentimentality of some on this board is fast changing that opinion.

Cedric
10-12-2004, 05:46 PM
Traderumor- Barry Larking not getting offered a contract was front page on ESPN.COM. Why do you act like it's such a non issue? The guy has been playing baseball in this city for twenty years and i'm damn proud people still care about him.
This clearly isn't an issue about the 25th roster spot and you know it.

princeton
10-12-2004, 05:49 PM
You know what, if I thought for a minute that Barry Larkin's top priority of the past couple seasons was the number of victories, then I might agree with you. But after the umpteenth article where Barry offered up nothing but negative comments about the FO, I have a hard to time believing he's driven by much more than petty differences of opinion.

if your concern was number of victories and your perception was that the FO was not concerned with number of victories, then logically you'd offer up nothing but negative comments about the FO

BrooklynRedz
10-12-2004, 05:59 PM
if your concern was number of victories and your perception was that the FO was not concerned with number of victories, then logically you'd offer up nothing but negative comments about the FO

Whatever. You think one way, I another. I happen to like my baseball players a tad more cheerful and appreciative. Kinda like going to a summer blockbuster and having the dude behind me whispering in my ear the whole time complaining about the soundtrack choices, costume design or casting. It's not politics. It's not social services. And I don't care if Orson Welles' version of Gladiator would have been any better!

Chip R
10-12-2004, 06:04 PM
What's funny is they talk about it's time to give the younger guys the opportunity to play, which is fine (however, Larkin not having a role for this club doesn't make a ton of sense)....but then they say guys like Edwin Encarnacion are too young to be in the majors


...kinda contradicts itself, don't you think?
Actually, no. Some young guys are ready and some are not. They don't think Ed E is ready yet. He may prove them come ST but they all seem to think he needs a year in AAA. What role should barry have? He says he'd be one but he may just change his mind next year. Then you will have the same thing all over again that happened the last 2 months of the season.

princeton
10-12-2004, 06:11 PM
Whatever.

great word. always trumps the logic card.

Boss-Hog
10-12-2004, 06:26 PM
I'm very sad to see him go. I think he deserves some of the blame but primarily I fault the front office because he's clearly one of the Reds 25 best players, regardless of age. I started watching the team right about the team Barry became the starting SS and I'm really going to miss watching him play and what he meant to the team. I'll remember all his good memories, particularly 1990 and 1995. Watching the Reds with whoever at shortstop just won't be the same for me.

By the way, for those who suggest that the Reds are looking to improve defensively in the infield by making this move, I think I can say with almost certainty that no team looking to improve their defense tries out Austin Kearns at third base.

Boss

Col_ IN Reds fan
10-12-2004, 06:32 PM
Larkin should have just took his day the Reds offered and moved on. I remember him talking after last season when they agreed he would play 1 more year and retire with a day in his name. I thought that was pretty nice thing to do since it did not appear the Reds would not contend this year.
Larkin played better than most expected , but the injuries just kept cropping up. The injuries will not go away. If he wants to play another year then I wish him luck and if the Reds have a change of heart and resign him then I hope he can contribute. This same thing happened to Dave Concepcion and that seemed to work itself out.

RosieRed
10-12-2004, 07:06 PM
Like I said, I like Barry, but the syrup-y sweet, deluded sentimentality of some on this board is fast changing that opinion.

If you like Barry, it must be a thin definition of "like" if something a few people are saying on here is enough to change your mind -- especially if you're referring to "sentimental" comments.

oneupper
10-12-2004, 07:13 PM
"El pez muere por la boca"

-Barry "The Fish" Larkin.

BTW I predicted this outcome ---yeah for me :gac:

johngalt
10-12-2004, 07:25 PM
Agreed. get rid of all players that want to compete for victories, to see the best players playing, to improve their teammates, and will be displeased to see the club run in a counterdirection. Nasty, nasty influences.

Yes, we need more Barry Larkins...

-We need more guys who refuse to go on the DL b/c they "might be able to go" at some point in the next 14 days.

-We need more guys who undercut virtually everything the front office says and takes slams at them on a consistent basis in the media rather than in private.

-We need more guys who put their batting average and statistics over the development of the team's future.

-We need more guys who complain anytime one of their boys gets traded, regardless of what it means to the team's present and future.

-We need more guys who turn everything into a players vs. management/coaches environment.

-We need more guys who are unwilling to move to or learn another position to make room for others and make themselves more versatile.

Shall I continue?

Spring~Fields
10-12-2004, 07:32 PM
he's clearly one of the Reds 25 best players, regardless of age.
Boss

Yes, and the Reds clearly need decent bench players that can hit. I guess the Reds will be relying on the starting eight to carry the whole load.

4256 Hits
10-12-2004, 07:33 PM
[QUOTE=PuffyPig]Lopez (and even Machado) are way better options at SS than larkin at this stage of his career.

I'm convinced that we are not going to improve enough unless our middle infield defense improves.

QUOTE]

They will get to more balls but Casey is going to need to grow 2 feet in order to catch all those throws headed for the stands. Didn't both have over 30 errors last season in part of a AAA! I don't think anyone is saying Larkin should be starting SS over Lopez. But I would much rather see him on the bench than the current list of possiblities.

First signing Miley and then this I now hold out NO hope the DanO is going to be a good GM. :angry: :dflynn: :angry:

NC Reds
10-12-2004, 07:35 PM
I'll miss Barry, but I think it is time to assess other options.

I hope Barry catches on with a winner and plays a big role in October 2005. :gac:

HermW
10-12-2004, 07:48 PM
Lopez (and even Machado) are way better options at SS than larkin at this stage of his career.

I'm convinced that we are not going to improve enough unless our middle infield defense improves.

I'm not certain that our pitching is really as bad as it appeared to be last year. After seeing hit after hit sneaking through the infield, I'm not all that sure that a great SS/2B combo couldn't save a run a game, which makes our pitching all of a sudden pretty good.

This is my problem right here. With a healthy Larkin, the Reds are 10 or 12 games over .500 and he is hitting .300. With a healthy Lopez, they are some big number under .500 and he is not hitting .300. I know there were other factors, but Larkin was very good early on, even if a little limited defensively (at least he didn't commitm errors).

In a sense, Larkin is ideal, because, when healthy he is your best option and you can play him only part time. When hurt, he allows the kids to play and he is a great mentor. And it wouldn't have cost much to keep him around to fill those roles.

Spring~Fields
10-12-2004, 07:52 PM
In a sense, Larkin is ideal, because, when healthy he is your best option and you can play him only part time. When hurt, he allows the kids to play and he is a great mentor. And it wouldn't have cost much to keep him around to fill those roles.

The positives above is what good veteran bench players can contribute to a team. I am shocked that Vanderwal was rated higher than Larkin in a sense.

alloverjr
10-12-2004, 07:53 PM
It seems to me that if Barry was so disgruntled with the FO - and judging by his comments has for a while - this should be a happy day for him. He can try to go play somewhere else instead. It appears he went about this the wrong way one too many times. How many here think that if he would not have publically criticized the organization that he might be back for '05? I'm glad Barry cares about winning, so do I. That's why I'm glad he's not coming back next year. He had an awful time playing the reserve part late in the year. He's not use to that, and probably never would be. Nice stay in Cincy Barry. Good luck next year.

Danny Serafini
10-12-2004, 07:56 PM
This is my problem right here. With a healthy Larkin, the Reds are 10 or 12 games over .500 and he is hitting .300. With a healthy Lopez, they are some big number under .500 and he is not hitting .300. I know there were other factors, but Larkin was very good early on, even if a little limited defensively (at least he didn't commitm errors).

That's not fair to Lopez at all. There were a whole lot of things that caused the record to go downhill, it's not like Lopez showed up and dragged the team down 20 games in the standings.

alloverjr
10-12-2004, 07:57 PM
This is my problem right here. With a healthy Larkin, the Reds are 10 or 12 games over .500 and he is hitting .300. With a healthy Lopez, they are some big number under .500 and he is not hitting .300. I know there were other factors, but Larkin was very good early on, even if a little limited defensively (at least he didn't commitm errors).



Coincidentally, the staff as a whole were pitching out of their collective minds. Lark was playing well early, no doubt. But their were 15 other things that were going right early when the Reds were in 1st, and Barry was just a part of that.

RedSchmo2
10-12-2004, 08:23 PM
What is coincidence is that Barry Larkin IS the only person at any level in this organization that has been part of a World Championship team in Cincinnati... ever.

Now he is being associated with the thought that he has been part of this team that is a loser... so a change must be needed.

Maybe the Allen's of the World are the ones who don't know how to win.... not Larkin.

It's a sad day for Cincinnati fans everywhere... the only connection to a Championship is now gone.

Hubba
10-12-2004, 08:46 PM
Yes, we need more Barry Larkins...

-We need more guys who refuse to go on the DL b/c they "might be able to go" at some point in the next 14 days.

-We need more guys who undercut virtually everything the front office says and takes slams at them on a consistent basis in the media rather than in private.

-We need more guys who put their batting average and statistics over the development of the team's future.

-We need more guys who complain anytime one of their boys gets traded, regardless of what it means to the team's present and future.

-We need more guys who turn everything into a players vs. management/coaches environment.

-We need more guys who are unwilling to move to or learn another position to make room for others and make themselves more versatile.

Shall I continue? You can't be talking about sweet little Barry Larkin. I couldn't have said it better myself.

RFS62
10-12-2004, 09:03 PM
For a world class athlete, quitting the central focus of your life is an agonizing decision. How do you hang up the spikes when you've played at the level Larkin has for so many years? How do you judge objectively what's left in the tank, when by definition, your confidence and belief in yourself is part and parcel of what made you great to begin with?

Barry isn't qualified to judge himself. He has to believe he can still do it, or he wouldn't be hanging on. That doesn't mean his assessment is accurate, or for that matter, inaccurate. It just means he can't be impartial and make a businesslike decision.

So it's left to the front offices of baseball to decide. The Reds front office, for several reasons, have decided to pass.

We'll see if he is a good fit for another organization soon.

The thing that has stuck in my craw about this whole process is Barry's insistance that he would like a front office job once he retires. If that is true, then he is painfully naive about the world of business. You don't publically slam the organization you want a job with if you are a businessman. You don't take public your disagreements. I would be very afraid to hire Barry Larkin in the front office if I were DanO. I would expect more of the same, taking your criticisms public to get your way. He's done it time and time again.

I'm sure many think that is a good approach, to hold the Front Office's feet to the fire and demand excellence. I think it's career suicide if he ever wanted to work for the Reds.

I don't think it's been a very well thought out strategy to get that front office job he says he wants.

LoganBuck
10-12-2004, 09:33 PM
It is a simple as this, Barry is old, and surly. Everyone complained all year about the Reds playing with 23 or 24 players often. Larkin was one of the main reasons for that. He had many day to day injuries. Sure he can still swing the bat, but his speed is diminished and so is his range in the field. He is unwilling to play other positions, and showed poorly when moved to a pinch hitter role down the strech this year. Is it a coincedence as well that the team performed better over the latter streches of the season with Lopez and Machado, adding an element of speed that Larkin no longer has. Lopez and Machado, at the end of the careers will be lucky to have done half of what Larkin has done, but the facts remain, they are not 41, they have speed, more range, are cheaper, and may or may not be any good. But I know that Miley will have alot less on his mind now that he doesn't have to worry about sharing his Metamucil with Larkin, or his arthritis medicine. Odds are that Lopez and/or Machado will be healthy enough to go everyday.

Castro should be the next out the door as well.

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 09:40 PM
C'mon, REDREAD and Princeton, surely you don't think Larkin was chosen to the AS game based on merit? That is rewriting history. He was picked because it was his last year (horse) and then he said "cancel my retirement, I'm an All-Star baby" (cart)

Again, we are debating the 25th player on the Reds roster, Larkin over Castro
:sleep:

Who was the 3rd best SS at the time then, if it wasn't Lark?
How come Lark didn't get an automatic bid in 2003 when they thought that might be his last year?

To say that Lark waited to cancel his retire until after he got his "entilement" as an All star is pretty low man. Larkin never announced his retirement for this year. John Allen did. He scheduled Larkin day as a way to finally kick him out the door.

If you can't see why Larkin is better than Castro, consider the help Lark gave to Lopez and Pena this year. And I can also say the Reds will have worse players than Castro and Larkin next year.. (Castro or Lark won't be the 25th player, there will be worse).

princeton
10-12-2004, 09:42 PM
I'm sure many think that is a good approach, to hold the Front Office's feet to the fire and demand excellence. I think it's career suicide if he ever wanted to work for the Reds.

I think that you're probably right about Larkin's naivete. The other idea is that he's crazy like a fox. IIRC, Larry Dierker critiqued a dumb Houston regime so effectively that he was hired to manage the club. Oester sent parting shots in Cincy, then was hired back within a couple of years. You can get away with it when regimes fall.

I don't think that it's career suicide to criticize dumb baseball management. Maybe he won't work for this FO, but there'll be others, and he'll be proven correct.

and he's better off working for someone a lot smarter than these guys

Aronchis
10-12-2004, 09:45 PM
Who was the 3rd best SS at the time then, if it wasn't Lark?
How come Lark didn't get an automatic bid in 2003 when they thought that might be his last year?

To say that Lark waited to cancel his retire until after he got his "entilement" as an All star is pretty low man. Larkin never announced his retirement for this year. John Allen did. He scheduled Larkin day as a way to finally kick him out the door.

If you can't see why Larkin is better than Castro, consider the help Lark gave to Lopez and Pena this year. And I can also say the Reds will have worse players than Castro and Larkin next year.. (Castro or Lark won't be the 25th player, there will be worse).

yawn REDREAD, your classic nihilistic ranting, where did Barry Larkin not sign off Barry Larkin day? A specialized Fantasy created by you to continously slamming the FO? Barry screwed Barry. Deal

By the way, I bet the 25th man is MUCH better than Castro.

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 09:45 PM
but he's hardly done much for morale in the clubhouse with his negative comments about the FO. .

Well, we better dump Casey too. He's been critical of the FO.
Just about everyone left after the 2003 fire sale were critical.

Some of the players have said nothing, but has any player come out and supported the Reds' front office. I can't recall any player saying, "I like the direction this club is going in".

In fact, I bet Dunn, Kearns, and everyone else is probably ticked off at this move. Most of the young guys probably can't wait until they get expensive enough to get out of here. Remember how happy Reitsma was (and some of the other jettisoned players?). We'll probably see that with Dunn/Kearns as well.

Roy Tucker
10-12-2004, 09:51 PM
Maybe Kurt Stilwell will get his shot at SS finally.

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 09:55 PM
yawn REDREAD, your classic nihilistic ranting, where did Barry Larkin not sign off Barry Larkin day? .

When did he ask for a day? Yawn right back at you :rolleyes:

Are you going to deny that Allen has wanted to get rid of him for quite a while.

The guy was hitting .300 and was healthy up to that point. Even most of the people on the board liked him. So he started thinking about coming back one more year to the team he loved. Crucify him! :rolleyes:

It amazes me of the hate some people have for Lark. That people are cheering this move as if we just acquired a 20 game winner.

Keeping Lark for next year might not have made the team significantly better, but cutting him certainly isn't going to improve a darn thing. More playing time for Romano.. hip hip horray :rolleyes: Maybe Larson or Olmedo has a shot to make the roster now :rolleyes:

REDREAD
10-12-2004, 10:07 PM
OBP
Matsui .336
Larkin .344

SLG
Matsui .411
Larkin .403

OPS
Matsui .747
Larkin .747

Matsui's 17.3 more created runs before the asb is enough to show that he deserved it more, imo.

How does a marginally higher slug translate into roughly 50% more "created runs"? I'm not arguing, I just don't understand that stat.
Does it have to do with more plate appearances?

Based on the stats I understand, I can concede the two may be a push.
If you enlighten me a bit, maybe I'll see your point better.

westofyou
10-12-2004, 10:12 PM
How does a marginally higher slug translate into roughly 50% more "created runs"? I'm not arguing, I just don't understand that stat.
Does it have to do with more plate appearances?

Based on the stats I understand, I can concede the two may be a push.
If you enlighten me a bit, maybe I'll see your point better.

Matsui had 100 extra AB's and 11 more steals and 15 more doubles at the break, thus more runs.

He also fielded poorly and looked poor at the dish for most of the season.

flyer85
10-12-2004, 10:19 PM
Most of the young guys probably can't wait until they get expensive enough to get out of here.

absurd.

What will cause them to want to stay - winning
What will cause them to want to leave - continued losing

Hubba
10-12-2004, 10:24 PM
When did he ask for a day? Yawn right back at you :rolleyes:

Are you going to deny that Allen has wanted to get rid of him for quite a while.

The guy was hitting .300 and was healthy up to that point. Even most of the people on the board liked him. So he started thinking about coming back one more year to the team he loved. Crucify him! :rolleyes:

It amazes me of the hate some people have for Lark. That people are cheering this move as if we just acquired a 20 game winner.

Keeping Lark for next year might not have made the team significantly better, but cutting him certainly isn't going to improve a darn thing. More playing time for Romano.. hip hip horray :rolleyes: Maybe Larson or Olmedo has a shot to make the roster now :rolleyes:I think that most turned on Larkin because of his constant whinning. (Hint.Hint)

flyer85
10-12-2004, 10:25 PM
The Reds have never made a serious attempt to replace Larkin.

So they acquired Lopez? Traded because the Jays thought he would never cut it as a everyday SS and he had lost his job to Woodward(not very good in his own right).

Maybe at 25 Lopez is possibly ready to play SS everyday, but it is also likely his defense won't cut it. There is no way Machado is ready to play everyday in the majors. Only other choices are Olmedo and DJ.
The reason Barry has been the SS for the last 4 years in because he was being paid a lot of money(until this year) and they never brought in any serious competition.

4256 Hits
10-12-2004, 10:57 PM
By the way, I bet the 25th man is MUCH better than Castro.

I will take that bet. Because this move assures that Machado will make the team and Larkin will out OPS him next year. It wouldn't even surprise me if he even out OPS Freel (IMO just had a career year) next year, like he did this year. For those that don't know Larkin had an OPS of .771 this year. Players w/ over 100 abs only 4 had that of high OPS (Griffey, Dunn, Pena, Casey). So in other words the Reds just declined to sign there 5 best player who I am sure would have signed for under 1 mil. Not good. :(

Here is a list of player that played for the Reds last year that Larkin was clearly better than. Not that they will be with the Reds next year but I bet simular players will be.

Ray Olmedo
Corky Miller
John Vander Wal
Jermaine Clark
Jason Romano
Darren Bragg
Jacob Cruz
Tim Hummel
Brandon Larson
Javier Valentín
Juan Castro
Anderson Machado

So the Reds need to go out and get 12 players better than Larkin to make not having Larkin on the team not make the Reds better. Since in the past year DanO. hasn't brought in one player better than Larkin my guess he isn't going to find 12!

Caseyfan21
10-12-2004, 11:10 PM
I hope Larkin catches on with either an NL Central team or the Cleveland Indians. The Indians need a cheap veteran to mentor their youngsters so he could be a good fit.

All I want to see is Barry come into GABP with an opponent's uniform and then play a big role in beating the Reds. Maybe getting rid of Larkin was the right move, but it was handled about as wrongly as it could be. I hope Lark comes into Cincy with an opponent and shoves it to the Reds. It would be great to hear the cheers he gets while beating the Reds and their pathetic PR morons in the front office.

RFS62
10-12-2004, 11:16 PM
I sure hope Barry doesn't finish his career like Willie Mays, hanging on too long.

I hated seeing Willie in a Mets uniform, basically sucking in the outfield.

WVRedsFan
10-12-2004, 11:41 PM
I sure hope Barry doesn't finish his career like Willie Mays, hanging on too long.

I hated seeing Willie in a Mets uniform, basically sucking in the outfield.

That is my hope also. I won't argue that Larkin is the superior of every infielder we have when he is healthy. I won't argue that keeping Juan Castro and giving the boot to Larkin (for essentially the same money) is way stupid. Almost criminal.

I will say that sometimes you have to understand that when it's time to go, you need to do it when you are on top. My father retired young and when asked why, he always said, "because I'm still productive. I don't want anyone talking behind my back on how that old fart is losing it."

I wish so much that this FO had the ability to manage public relations with the general public and the players, but they do not. The ideal thing would have been to give Larkin some position with the Reds, but instead, they chose to not communicate with him, so Barry communicated for them. There should have been a way to have ended this thing without the bloodshed. These guys are so clueless it defies explanation.

But I hope Barry does the right thing and hangs it up, but I doubt there is any chance in that happening. He's been wounded by this organization. He has something to prove.

kheidg-
10-12-2004, 11:49 PM
Does anyone actually think that Barry will go elsewhere to sign? Would any team make him their #1 short stop? Didn't something like this happen last year before they finally signed him a bit later?
I don't understand the fact why Allen/DanO/Miley would say, "No we don't want you to come back under any circumstances." IMO, he could serve a good role on this team (or any team) as a bat off the bench.

johngalt
10-13-2004, 12:14 AM
Who was the 3rd best SS at the time then, if it wasn't Lark?
How come Lark didn't get an automatic bid in 2003 when they thought that might be his last year?

Izturis would have been a decent choice in my opinion. Or even not another shortstop at all. Ramirez, Dunn, Overbay....any of those guys would have been better choices rather than forcing a third shortstop.


To say that Lark waited to cancel his retire until after he got his "entilement" as an All star is pretty low man. Larkin never announced his retirement for this year. John Allen did. He scheduled Larkin day as a way to finally kick him out the door.

All during Spring Training and the early part of the season Larkin talked about this being his last year. After they re-signed him last year it was pretty much agreed this would be his last year. It's not like Barry was always saying he wasn't sure and all this. That's not to say that he doesn't have a right to change his mind, but he did say on multiple occasions 2004 was the end.

johngalt
10-13-2004, 12:17 AM
I don't think that it's career suicide to criticize dumb baseball management. Maybe he won't work for this FO, but there'll be others, and he'll be proven correct.


I'll be SHOCKED if Larkin ever lasts more than a year in a front office job anywhere.

EKURed
10-13-2004, 06:42 AM
Here it is point blank...they made an agreement with Larkin last year that this would be his final year and they scheduled a day for him. It was his choice to cancel it, not the Reds'. The Reds made it clear last year that this year would be it. It's time to move on. Larkin would have never accepted a utility role here...and the Reds can't have their shortstop hopefully play 100 games. It's time....I don't feel the least bit sorry for Barry Larkin. I enjoyed watching him play, but the Reds paid him about 10-15 million more over his last multi-year deal than anyone in baseball would have paid him. Larkin had his chance here to go out with fan fare, but he chose to go another direction. Good luck to him, but it's time to move on...I agree with the Reds' decision.

RedsBaron
10-13-2004, 06:46 AM
I sure hope Barry doesn't finish his career like Willie Mays, hanging on too long.

I hated seeing Willie in a Mets uniform, basically sucking in the outfield.
More often than not, great players seem to go out the way Mays did, having hung on too long, than the way Ted Williams did, with a HR in his final at bat capping off a .316 year with 29 HRs. The money is too good and the players love the game and the life of a star too much to leave early.
Babe Ruth retired as a Boston Brave, hitting .181. Hank Aaron hit all of 10 HRs his final season, as a Brewer. Steve Carlton seemed to be trying to play for every team in the majors his final season, as he would be released only to catch on with another team (lucky Lefty finished that year as an invisible member of the 1987 World Champion Twins).
Berra, Greenberg, Morgan, Killebrew, Frank Robinson, Seaver, Cobb, Speaker, Duke Snider, Mathewson.....the list is long of superstars who hung around too long and who finished their careers somewhere other than with the team where they achieved their greatest glory. To change sports, for every John Elway who departs on top a champion, there are countless superstars who stumble into retirement; even Michael Jordan, who had the perfect exit from the Bulls, decided to later return to a less than glorious finish with another team.
I respect what Larkin accomplished with the Reds. If I was allowed to vote, I would vote for his induction into the Hall of Fame. However, IMO, it is time to turn the page.

GAC
10-13-2004, 08:06 AM
Sunrise doesn't last all morning
A cloudburst doesn't last all day
Seems my love is up and has left you with no warning
It's not always going to be this grey

All things must pass
All things must pass away

Sunset doesn't last all evening
A mind can blow those clouds away
After all this, my love is up and must be leaving
It's not always going to be this grey

All things must pass
All things must pass away
All things must pass
None of life's strings can last
So, I must be on my way
And face another day

Now the darkness only stays the night-time
In the morning it will fade away
Daylight is good at arriving at the right time
It's not always going to be this grey

All things must pass
All things must pass away
All things must pass
All things must pass away

flyer85
10-13-2004, 08:18 AM
Does anyone actually think that Barry will go elsewhere to sign? Would any team make him their #1 short stop?

1) Maybe - I have a hard time seeing someone else offer anything but a minor league deal
2) No

traderumor
10-13-2004, 08:27 AM
That is my hope also. I won't argue that Larkin is the superior of every infielder we have when he is healthy. I won't argue that keeping Juan Castro and giving the boot to Larkin (for essentially the same money) is way stupid. Almost criminal.

I will say that sometimes you have to understand that when it's time to go, you need to do it when you are on top. My father retired young and when asked why, he always said, "because I'm still productive. I don't want anyone talking behind my back on how that old fart is losing it."

I wish so much that this FO had the ability to manage public relations with the general public and the players, but they do not. The ideal thing would have been to give Larkin some position with the Reds, but instead, they chose to not communicate with him, so Barry communicated for them. There should have been a way to have ended this thing without the bloodshed. These guys are so clueless it defies explanation.

But I hope Barry does the right thing and hangs it up, but I doubt there is any chance in that happening. He's been wounded by this organization. He has something to prove.
Even the press couldn't find where the Reds dropped the ball on this one. Not sure what they did wrong. The World Series hasn't even started and they already made a decision and let him know their intentions. They said that contract talks would occur in the offseason, this is the offseason. Give him a front office position? When he is still going to pursue playing? Not sure what more the Reds could do.

Let's review. They sign him up for one more year after he said he wanted to play more one year, the Reds (Linder says uncle after Reik sits on him after Barry sits on him) buckled. They set up a party for him, he eventually says ok, but then "thanks, but no thanks." Fine, they cancel the party. The handwriting is on the wall late in the year. We're out of the race, Lopez is finally showing promise (Daugherty calls him a suspect? Does he go to games? Did he see him play the last half of the season? Anyway, I digress), and they want to see what Machado has to offer. So Larkin gets his panties in a bunch because they want to see the young guys on a regular basis AND COMMUNICATE THAT TO HIM. He didn't like what he heard, so he stuck his bottom lip out and started talking.

Yea, I can certainly see where the Reds screwed Barry on this one :rolleyes: And I can certainly see why folks would expect him to accept that role more gracefully next season. Sort of like expecting John Kerry to keep his "plan." :rolleyes:

OldXOhio
10-13-2004, 08:53 AM
Perhaps Lark and Junior would look good together in Tampa Bay teal.

flyer85
10-13-2004, 09:14 AM
I remember the debacle in St. Louis when the Birds brought in a replacement for Oz(it was Clayton) and then Ozzie decides he doesn't want to retire. Clayton ended up being the bad guy and ended up getting run out of town and the Cards ended up playing an over-the-hill Smith.

If the Reds are committed to playing Lopez at SS next year then there is no reason to keep larkin around. Because whenever Lopez would struggle out would go the call to put Larkin in there. It is not fair to a young player to have them constantly looking over their shoulder and that is exactly what would be going on if Larkin was on the bench. I think they decided it was time to move forward and no looking back.

Krusty
10-13-2004, 09:36 AM
Here it is point blank...they made an agreement with Larkin last year that this would be his final year and they scheduled a day for him. It was his choice to cancel it, not the Reds'. The Reds made it clear last year that this year would be it. It's time to move on. Larkin would have never accepted a utility role here...and the Reds can't have their shortstop hopefully play 100 games. It's time....I don't feel the least bit sorry for Barry Larkin. I enjoyed watching him play, but the Reds paid him about 10-15 million more over his last multi-year deal than anyone in baseball would have paid him. Larkin had his chance here to go out with fan fare, but he chose to go another direction. Good luck to him, but it's time to move on...I agree with the Reds' decision.

Amem brother. Larkin had the choice of going out in style with a Barry Larkin day or go out kicking and screaming. He choose kicking and screaming.

Bottom line is the last three years Larkin pretty much was washed up as a player. Injuries were counted on more frequently each year. His defensive range was very limited. And even though he could still swing the bat, you couldn't count on him playing everyday because of the injuries.

Like someone said, this reminds me of the Ozzie Smith situtation with the Cardinals when it was time to pass the torch to Royce Clayton. Some players just don't know when it is time to go.

EKURed
10-13-2004, 09:36 AM
Even the press couldn't find where the Reds dropped the ball on this one. Not sure what they did wrong. The World Series hasn't even started and they already made a decision and let him know their intentions. They said that contract talks would occur in the offseason, this is the offseason. Give him a front office position? When he is still going to pursue playing? Not sure what more the Reds could do.

Let's review. They sign him up for one more year after he said he wanted to play more one year, the Reds (Linder says uncle after Reik sits on him after Barry sits on him) buckled. They set up a party for him, he eventually says ok, but then "thanks, but no thanks." Fine, they cancel the party. The handwriting is on the wall late in the year. We're out of the race, Lopez is finally showing promise (Daugherty calls him a suspect? Does he go to games? Did he see him play the last half of the season? Anyway, I digress), and they want to see what Machado has to offer. So Larkin gets his panties in a bunch because they want to see the young guys on a regular basis AND COMMUNICATE THAT TO HIM. He didn't like what he heard, so he stuck his bottom lip out and started talking.

Yea, I can certainly see where the Reds screwed Barry on this one :rolleyes: And I can certainly see why folks would expect him to accept that role more gracefully next season. Sort of like expecting John Kerry to keep his "plan." :rolleyes:

Couldn't have said it much better myself....the Reds did nothing wrong here. Larkin really just got upset because this is the first time he hasn't been able to play on the fans to get the organization to buckle. He shouldn't say a word edgewise....what he should do is give a team that would have given him 27 million over 3 years when he got it. Then, give him one more year when he wanted. Now he gets mad because he wants another year. It is the Reds' right to do what they want to do...they don't owe him anything.

Roy Tucker
10-13-2004, 09:36 AM
Yeah, I think the Reds made the right decision. Barry pretty well painted himself into a corner.

My only quibble is that the Reds owed it to Barry to bring him in 100 Main St., sit him down, have a cup of coffee, and tell him the news. A phone call after 19 years seems a little cold and impersonal.

If Barry would have been seen taking balls at 2B and 3B or in the OF and preparing for the super-sub role, then I think he'd have a leg to stand on.

But I think Barry in his heart of hearts still thinks he should be the starting SS and the other guys ought to be playing 2b, 3b, and OF.

If Lopez/Machado would have struggled, Barry would have piped up and said "I can play". And sulked if he didn't.

The Reds need to move on at SS and quit using Barry as a security blanket. Too disruptive.

REDREAD
10-13-2004, 09:44 AM
absurd.

What will cause them to want to stay - winning
What will cause them to want to leave - continued losing

1. They aren't going to be a winning organization any time soon
2. Have you ever worked at a "successful" organization that made it very unpleasant to work there? It's not fun, believe me.
3. This FO has a long history of not even trying to win. Remember this summer, how the players were dreading a potential fire sale. They all were assuming any salary that could be moved would be. How do you think that would motivate them.
4. The team knows that even if they are in first or second place at the deadline, they are getting no help, but their rivals are.

What exactly makes this franchise any better than Pittsburg or Milwaukee?
Look objectively. There's no difference. If you were a player, would you want to go to Milwaukee (or Cincy?)

deltachi8
10-13-2004, 09:45 AM
I have no problem with this decision in my head, my heart, yes, but that is what it is. I do think the Reds knew this was the way they were going to go and could have/should have let Barry know in September. OK, sticking to the policy of no negotiations/comments on FAs until after the season, but sometimes, a 19 year vet deserves a little more consideraion.

As a baseball decision, it was time to make it. As long as Castro does NOT come back, I have no problmes with moving to the future.

Thank You, Barry for memories and being a part of my favorite Red's team of all time.

flyer85
10-13-2004, 09:49 AM
So the Reds letting larkin go will cause other Reds to want to leave?

Has anyone ever left a job because a co-worker left the company?

deltachi8
10-13-2004, 09:52 AM
So the Reds letting larkin go will cause other Reds to want to leave?

Has anyone ever left a job because a co-worker left the company?

Yes, i have seen that happen. However, i dont think that will be the case here. Players will leave for more $$ elsewhere, Barry Larkin or not.

flyer85
10-13-2004, 09:56 AM
If the Reds actually made a serious playoff run next year the fact that Larkin isn't around would be completely forgotten.

Krusty
10-13-2004, 10:17 AM
Winning cures alot of problems.

traderumor
10-13-2004, 10:25 AM
If you were a player, would you want to go to Milwaukee (or Cincy?)Why not? As long as the check clears, I am playing major league baseball and making a good dime doing it ;) . I'm a "gamer" (whatever that means), so I would be convinced that I was good enough to turn this thing around, that I would be a key part of doing that. If I'm a pitcher, I look at the young bats in the middle of the lineup and salivate. I would ask management what they intend to do to improve my infield defense if I'm a pitcher, though. Then, I put on my uniform every day, work my butt off to perform at the top of my ability, and let the coaches coach, the umpires umpire, the executives manage, the broadcasters broadcast, and the sportswriters write about my exploits on the field and keep my opinions about the business side of things to myself. Find a few of those guys, especially ones that can pitch, and you have yourself an exciting young team with a high ceiling.

BTW, I think way too much is made of "why would anyone want to play here?" in case you were wondering. While there are certainly improvements that could be made for the players' work environment, much of the grumping you hear from Reds are matters that are none of their business, like who is playing on their team, who gets traded, etc. But then, once you have a few losing seasons, everyone and their brother, including the players, think they could do a better job of running a big league franchise.

johngalt
10-13-2004, 10:32 AM
For everyone who thinks/thought Larkin would work well as a backup and would be fine doing it, here's a little snippet from the Post...


If Larkin knew the Reds were committed to starting Lopez and Machado every day at shortstop next season, could he play an entire year in the same role he held this September?

"No, I couldn't," Larkin said, "because I think once I started playing that the manager would see that I could make more contributions to the team than that. If I get a chance to go out there and play, with my track record when I'm healthy, everybody knows that I can play. So, no, I couldn't see myself in that position, especially in Cincinnati."

iammrred
10-13-2004, 10:42 AM
For everyone who thinks/thought Larkin would work well as a backup and would be fine doing it, here's a little snippet from the Post...

OK, so he wants to play, so a front office job isn't an option? And, he won't be happy as a utility guy, so constant grumblings next season would have been likely? :dflynn:

Does he really think any team out there is going to give the starting shortstop role to a 41-year-old who's averaged less than 100 games over the last four seasons? He's living in a dream world.

I just wish he would have went through with the retirement night, received a proper send-off, probably got an offer to work in the front office, and avoided this whole mess. I just really can't comprehend how the Reds are to blame in this.

paulrichjr
10-13-2004, 12:17 PM
I only wish that they could have invited him to spring training to try to win a spot on the team. Larkin would not have accepted it but I think if he spent the winter trying to find a starting job he would jump at the chance. I will be shocked if he is on anyones active roster come Feb. He will be invited to spring training by some team like the D-Rays but I just don't think anyone will fill up a roster spot with a 41 year old shortstop.

I do feel that if he could have accepted his role as a utility guy that the Reds should have invited him down. The guy can still hit. I believe that once he adapted to the PH role he would have been a good guy off of the bench.

Just our luck Larkin will go to some team and end up leading the team to the World Series while playing in 140 games and getting 175 hits.

princeton
10-13-2004, 12:35 PM
Just our luck Larkin will go to some team and end up leading the team to the World Series while playing in 140 games and getting 175 hits.

you say that like it's a bad thing.

for true fans, it's the best thing

CrackerJack
10-13-2004, 01:46 PM
It's a conspiracy! I can't believe they did it!! Oh my god I hope they talk about it on the radio and on here every single day for the next 5 years!!! I can't get enough of the Reds' soap opera controversies!! I just can't get enough folks.

First Joe now Barry!! Who's next?? Poor, poor uncle Carl and his minions? Little children??? Cute kittens!??

I want to listen to Andy Furman and drunk talk show callers with southern accents go on about this 24/7! I say WLW just do a "how Barry got treated so poorly" segment marathon for the next week and we can just talk about it forever and ever until next baseball season!! woo hoo!!!

RosieRed
10-13-2004, 01:49 PM
It is the Reds' right to do what they want to do...they don't owe him anything.

Is that how you would feel if you worked for a company for nearly 20 years? That they don't owe you anything?

NKyRedMachine
10-13-2004, 02:19 PM
Is that how you would feel if you worked for a company for nearly 20 years? That they don't owe you anything?

Apples and oranges. This isnt corporate America we are talking about here.

While the Reds' FO leaves a lot to be desired on many fronts, and Barry Larkin is one of my favorote Reds of all time....they absolutely made the right choice in this matter. People that think Barry was willing to be a backup/utility guy behind Lopez, or that think that he is capable of playing 140 games at SS next year at the age of 41 are as delusional as he is. It is time for Lark to move on.

RosieRed
10-13-2004, 03:01 PM
Apples and oranges. This isnt corporate America we are talking about here.

Baseball is not a business? The players are not employees?

Larkin held down a position for 19 or so years. A comment was made that the Reds don't owe him anything. I fail to see how that isn't analogous to someone else having a job for that long and saying his company doesn't owe him anything.

zombie-a-go-go
10-13-2004, 03:09 PM
I want to listen to Andy Furman and drunk talk show callers with southern accents go on about this 24/7! I say WLW just do a "how Barry got treated so poorly" segment marathon for the next week and we can just talk about it forever and ever until next baseball season!! woo hoo!!!

*POOF*

Your wish is granted.

traderumor
10-13-2004, 03:38 PM
Baseball is not a business? The players are not employees?

Larkin held down a position for 19 or so years. A comment was made that the Reds don't owe him anything. I fail to see how that isn't analogous to someone else having a job for that long and saying his company doesn't owe him anything.But Rosie, they tried to give him his due, he cancelled it. What do you suggest that they do for him? Have him fly in from his home to say "Barry, we're not gonna be able to use you next year" as one person suggested? Just not sure where the poor treatment is.

Matt700wlw
10-13-2004, 03:48 PM
No, but during the organizational meetings in Sarasota (where they made the decision) they were 60 miles away from Larkin's home in Orlando.

They could have done it to his face like professionals


On a side note...Carl Lindner and John Allen called WMP and congratulated him on his player of the week honors...they weren't involved in telling Barry Larkin he's no longer needed on this team

When there's nice things to say, John and Carl do something...when there's things that need to be done that aren't always favorable...they hide behind the GM

Krusty
10-13-2004, 03:57 PM
Actually Lindner treated Larkin pretty well with that three year contract extension and having him come back for the 2004 season.

What did you want Lindner and Allen to do.....kiss Larkin's feet?

Matt700wlw
10-13-2004, 03:59 PM
Lindner kept him here...that's fine...he saved the day on that one and gave Larkin and most fans what they wanted

They could have met with him in person (60 miles from each other) and did it professionally...instead they use the phone, much like Bowden firing Perez over the phone

iammrred
10-13-2004, 04:03 PM
He trashed John Allen nonstop for the last month of the season. What did he expect -- a teary-eyed John Allen to drive over to his house and give him a hug and a kiss? Larkin only has himself to blame for the way things ended (which really weren't all that bad).

Matt700wlw
10-13-2004, 04:09 PM
I said earlier I put blame on both sides.....Barry did run his mouth, which he shouldn't have done

...but as an ORGANIZATION, taking the easy way out (telephone) rather than the professional way (face to face - which wouldn't have been difficult), to me doesn't show professionalism, especially to the captain of the team who has given his heart and soul to the organization for his entire career

I don't expect them to give him a day...they had that set, but Barry cancelled it

iammrred
10-13-2004, 04:25 PM
Fair enough. It was a baseball decision, so I understand why Miley and O'Brien were left to make the call and not John Allen. But perhaps a face-to-face meeting would have been ideal. I just wonder if Barry would have thought the team was patronizing him.

Spring~Fields
10-13-2004, 04:47 PM
Winning cures alot of problems.

The Cincinnati Reds Organization won't be "winning" anytime soon. Do we expect Chicago, St. Louis and Houston to implode anytime soon? Clearly we have seen who's ownership and management had the right plans and direction that led up to the past few seasons and the most recent, it was not the Reds, so can we expect a miracle that Lindner and his braintrust will somehow become successful when they have not been? Their sudden change of directions is nothing but another smoke screen for cost cutting and Lindner's bottom line and Miley is the right man to manage the AAAA team that they will and have offered the Reds fans.

Larkin in reality makes no difference one way or another for this organiztion. The franchise will have to have the right ownership and management before "winning" ever gets a chance to bring any cures.

RFS62
10-13-2004, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by paulrichjr
Just our luck Larkin will go to some team and end up leading the team to the World Series while playing in 140 games and getting 175 hits.






you say that like it's a bad thing.

for true fans, it's the best thing




Amen.

This is just a fit that the front office doesn't want. That decision is wide open for debate.

But I wish Barry nothing but the best in landing somewhere and playing, if that's really what he wants.

Aronchis
10-13-2004, 07:14 PM
The Cincinnati Reds Organization won't be "winning" anytime soon. Do we expect Chicago, St. Louis and Houston to implode anytime soon? Clearly we have seen who's ownership and management had the right plans and direction that led up to the past few seasons and the most recent, it was not the Reds, so can we expect a miracle that Lindner and his braintrust will somehow become successful when they have not been? Their sudden change of directions is nothing but another smoke screen for cost cutting and Lindner's bottom line and Miley is the right man to manage the AAAA team that they will and have offered the Reds fans.

Larkin in reality makes no difference one way or another for this organiztion. The franchise will have to have the right ownership and management before "winning" ever gets a chance to bring any cures.

Don't agree. Chicago has the young pitching, but bad moves from Houston and St.Louis can take what seems like a secure base and destroy it quickly. Everything has its time and place. If the young players mature into good players, so does the franchise which is why Dunn's season was so positive besides WMP improvement, Hudson's surprising development and getting younger positive stuff righties into the bullpen over the next 6 months from the Van Pimpels or Riedlings of the world.

I don't know if you will see a return of the Reds to the playoffs next year, though we are due for the cyle to return. But according to O'brien's and Miley's contracts, they better be getting there by 2006.

paulrichjr
10-13-2004, 07:35 PM
you say that like it's a bad thing.

for true fans, it's the best thing


I'm sorry I guess I didn't make myself clear. I was trying to say that with our luck Barry would have a great season AFTER leaving here. I am not wishing bad luck on him ...I am saying that he hasn't had a really good season for a really long time. I don't wish upon Barry Larkin bad luck. I just think that with guys like Austin Kearns, Barry Larkin, and Ken Griffey Jr all on the DL or hurt for much of the past 2 years it has been really hard to have a good season. I would like to have had a healthy season out of Barry like I described.