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guernsey
07-30-2003, 04:52 PM
Guillen Goes To Oakland

The exodus from Cincinnati continues. The Reds sent Jose Guillen to Oakland, Peter Gammons reports in exchange for Aaron Harang, Joe Valentine and a minor-leaguer.

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 04:52 PM
seriously?

Cedric
07-30-2003, 04:52 PM
If true it forces the M's hand. YES!!

WVRedsFan
07-30-2003, 04:53 PM
official announcement? Tonight? Poop...:thumbdn:

guernsey
07-30-2003, 04:55 PM
PITCHERS W-L PCT ERA G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H AB TBF R ER HR SH SF HB BB IB SO WP BK 0H 1H 2H 3H
Harang, Aaron 8- 2 .800 2.71 12 12 0 0 0 0 69.2 62 265 287 24 21 5 1 0 4 17 0 60 1 0 0 0 0 0


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6936

JaxRed
07-30-2003, 04:56 PM
That's not a bad deal !!!

Redsman88
07-30-2003, 04:58 PM
y is it a rumor if u go to espn.com u'll see that it really happened.

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by JaxRed
That's not a bad deal !!!

That's a GREAT deal. I was thinking we wouldn't get more than JUST Harang for Guillen.

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 04:59 PM
It's up on ESPN's baseball page, no link yet.

Could have done worse. Was expecting to, frankly.

guernsey
07-30-2003, 04:59 PM
PITCHERS W-L PCT ERA G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H AB TBF R ER HR SH SF HB BB IB SO WP BK 0H 1H 2H 3H
Valentine, Joe 1- 3 .250 4.82 40 0 0 0 23 4 52.1 44 198 239 33 28 5 1 1 2 37 3 53 9 0 0 0 0 0

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:01 PM
espn.com is reporting that it's a done deal. Guillen to OAK for Harang and 2 others.

Redsman88
07-30-2003, 05:01 PM
they just took guillen off the 10 players to be traded list also so it's true.

1990reds
07-30-2003, 05:02 PM
I absolutely love this deal, and if we trade Boone for two of Seattles three, i will be very happy.

Cedric
07-30-2003, 05:02 PM
Valentine has electric stuff.

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:02 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/index

guernsey
07-30-2003, 05:02 PM
Yeah, they just took Valentine out of the report and say 2 minor leaguers instead.

This is a whole lot better than 'cash'.

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:03 PM
Until this year, Joe Valentine was a top RP prospect. Last year he had a 1.97 ERA, and 63 K's in 59+ innings in AA. Relief prospects aren't worth much, but it looks like he has a chance.

red-in-la
07-30-2003, 05:03 PM
Whever got Harang...make him the next GM!!!!! In light of the Williamson blunder, this looks like a deal for Joe Morgan and Jack Billingham.

guernsey
07-30-2003, 05:03 PM
The Oakland Athletics, seeking to bolster their lineup, acquired power-hitting outfielder Jose Guillen from the Cincinnati Reds on Wednesday, ESPN's Peter Gammons reports.

In return, the Reds get pitchers Aaron Harang and Joe Valentine, plus an unnamed minor leaguer.

This has been a breakout season for Guillen, despite a logjam of outfielders in Cincinnati for much of the season. Guillen is batting .337 with 23 homers and 63 RBI in just 315 at-bats for the Reds.

Cincinnati continues to unload salaries, even though the Reds fired general manager Jim Bowden and manager Bob Boone on Monday. The Reds shipped closer Scott Williamson to the Red Sox on Tuesday.

The Reds, 47-59 entering play Wednesday, are likely to unload more contracts before Thursday's trade deadline. Aaron Boone, the ousted manager's son, likely will be one of the players sent to a contending club.

The Athletics, in close races for both the AL West title and the wild card, need offensive help. They are hitting just .253 as a team.

Harang, a 25-year-old starting pitcher considered to have a promising future, is 1-3 with a 5.34 ERA in seven games with the Athletics this season.

danforsman
07-30-2003, 05:03 PM
Maybe the sky's not falling after all...

Only problem is who's going to play RF tonight if Pile-o Cash isn't acquired (trademark on this line belongs to NC Red)

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 05:04 PM
Looks like Valentine's an arm worth having, too:

http://www.rivercats.com/doc.asp?ID=1674

djeternal
07-30-2003, 05:05 PM
Harang's good?????

Harang, a 25-year-old starting pitcher considered to have a promising future, is 1-3 with a 5.34 ERA in seven games with the Athletics this season.

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by djeternal
Harang's good?????

Harang, a 25-year-old starting pitcher considered to have a promising future, is 1-3 with a 5.34 ERA in seven games with the Athletics this season.
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?ID=20134

He's always had decent K rates, as well as good K/BB ratios throughout the minors.

savafan
07-30-2003, 05:06 PM
I'm saddened to see Guillen go, as he had become my favorite Red this year, but I'm excited to see what Aaron Harang can do for us. He could be our #1 starter.

djeternal
07-30-2003, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Arschloch
http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?ID=20134

He's always had decent K rates, as well as good K/BB ratios throughout the minors.

Might be true, but Minors does not equal the Majors.

danforsman
07-30-2003, 05:07 PM
Link to Joe Valentine on rotoworld.com

http://www.rotoworld.com/display2.asp?sport=MLB&page=players&X=7051&Y=0


Describes Valentine as the "Rich Harden" of the A's minor-league reliever prospects...well, the best minor league relief prospect they've got, at least.

gm
07-30-2003, 05:08 PM
Billy Beane acquires Jose Guillen = dogs and cats, sleeping together :eek:

Take your pick, Dave...Reggie Taylor in CF...or Branyan in RF?

savafan
07-30-2003, 05:08 PM
Harang has the potential to be a #1

HotCorner
07-30-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by guernsey
In return, the Reds get pitchers Aaron Harang and Joe Valentine, plus an unnamed minor leaguer.


Is that the same as a PTBNL? Or is he really unnamed? :D


Originally posted by danforsman
Maybe the sky's not falling after all...

Only problem is who's going to play RF tonight if Pile-o Cash isn't acquired (trademark on this line belongs to NC Red)

Can Smitherman make it to GABP in time?

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by djeternal
Harang's good?????



He's 25 and just starting to come into his own. He had a pretty good year for the A's last year in his first full go 'round. Trust me, he's a great addition to this club and an improvement over all in our rotation now. I've been saying this is a deal that should be made since about the beginning of June. I can't believe that it actually did happen. To get Valentine and another minor leaguer on top of Harang is just icing on the cake, IMO.:thumbup:

RFS62
07-30-2003, 05:09 PM
Maybe Billy Beane didn't read Moneyball

djeternal
07-30-2003, 05:09 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gm
[B]Billy Beane acquires Jose Guillen = dogs and cats, sleeping together :eek:

eh?

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by djeternal
Might be true, but Minors does not equal the Majors.
Of course not, but given the choice of guessing a guy's future based on:
A) ~80 games in the Minors OR
B) ~20 games in the Majors,
I'll select option A. Also keep in mind that last year he posted a 4.83 ERA for the A's which, although not especially impressive, isn't all that bad for a guy during his first partial season.

guernsey
07-30-2003, 05:09 PM
Larson in LF, Mateo in CF, Dunn back to RF.

Tomorrow it will be Larson @ 3rd base.

JoeAvgFan
07-30-2003, 05:10 PM
dj...and cash adds to no on-field talent. Given Guillen is going to be a free-agent, it appears we got very good value for a non-pitcher. Let's hope the PTBNL is significant in the Williamson trade.

BeerGut
07-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Very nice trade, Reds. I know Guillen had eye-popping numbers, but I still smelled "career year" around him. Harang, alone, is worth Guillen straight up. I was shocked by the Williamson trade (hoping you guys would get more), but you came out on the high end on this one.

Kudos.

REDREAD
07-30-2003, 05:11 PM
WEll, I'm sure we'll get to see Harang soon enough. My guess is that he's immediately thrown into the rotation.

Much better than getting just cash though.. I wonder if the public outrage over Williamson had anything to do with it.

At least this deal is close enough to reasonable to reserve judgement.

GriffeyFan
07-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Sounds like a decent deal. Now move Boone to Seattle for a couple more pitching prospects.

couch30
07-30-2003, 05:11 PM
Anyone know about Harang's contract? How long he is signed for etc?

guernsey
07-30-2003, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by couch30
Anyone know about Harang's contract? How long he is signed for etc?

He barely has a year of ML service time accumulated at this point.

Legion of Dunn
07-30-2003, 05:12 PM
I see Harang listed at 6-7, 240... Never realized that before. Pretty big lefty. I'm getting Candelaria images.

gm
07-30-2003, 05:12 PM
Guillen is the anti-Beane kind of hitter (Jose never takes a walk, etc) Hence the dog/cat apocalyptic reference from Ghostbusters

Has Larson been called up? Too much input, today!

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by couch30
Anyone know about Harang's contract? How long he is signed for etc?
He doesn't even have a full year of Major League service yet, so he's still two years away from even being eligible for arbitration. He'll be making a few hundred thousand the next two years.

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Legion of Dunn
I see Harang listed at 6-7, 240... Never realized that before. Pretty big lefty. I'm getting Candelaria images.

He's a righty.

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:14 PM
Harang is not a lefty, is he?

Also

Sounds like a decent deal. Now move Boone to Seattle for a couple more pitching prospects.

So what do the Reds do at 3B after Aaron is gone? I'm not convinced that Larson is the answer.

M2
07-30-2003, 05:15 PM
At least they got an arm that's close in Harang and a guy who throws rockets in Valentine.

Would have preferred Joe Blanton (younger, but a step up in quality), but this is an all right deal. Harang's one of those guys that doesn't throw as hard as you might think for a big guy.

But there's the chance the Reds just got themselves a pitcher or two for a guy they claimed off the discard pile and that's not a bad thing.

Odos Ojom
07-30-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Cedric
If true it forces the M's hand. YES!!



How exactly does this force the M's hand? Do you really believe Gillick will give up two of the best prospects in the system for Boone? Or even one of them? I wouldn't get too excited about those chances.

Guillen came from the AL. Welcome back to earth Jose!

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by couch30
Anyone know about Harang's contract? How long he is signed for etc?


He's got about .5 years of service time. He's ours until FA, after the 2009 season, assuming he comes to Cincy right away. I'm assuming his previous service time and the rest of this year do not add up to 1 full year.

cincinnati chili
07-30-2003, 05:16 PM
I don't like Harang at all, but I still like this deal for the Reds if Valentine's in the deal.

My one concern is that this is his 3rd organization in 2 years. Maybe there's baggage. Otherwise, the guy has a reported 96 mile per hour TWO SEAM fastball. That's right. A sinking fastball over 95.... allegedly.

My second concern is that the A's are dealing him, and despite what Moneyball says, they don't really trade away very many good players.

djeternal
07-30-2003, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Arschloch
Of course not, but given the choice of guessing a guy's future based on:
A) ~80 games in the Minors OR
B) ~20 games in the Majors,
I'll select option A. Also keep in mind that last year he posted a 4.83 ERA for the A's which, although not especially impressive, isn't all that bad for a guy during his first partial season.

Whatever the case, I am not happy with this trade. This guy has been in the minors for 6 years (Valentine). Harang has been in the minors for 5 years. Hopefully they will work out, as optimistic you are. Remember, JimBo made trades in the last 5 years for 40 pitching prospects.....and who do we have now?

Anyway, with this trade, we don't have our 'MVP' anymore, and will have no real run production anymore. Forget about fun with this team for this year or the next 3 years.

Thanks Mr. Allen and Lindner.

Please sensible fans.....DO NOT GO TO the GABP!!!!!!!! It's not a palace for the fans as promised, it's Lindner's and Allen's playpen.

Red in DC
07-30-2003, 05:17 PM
From ESPN: "Cincinnati continues to unload salaries ..."

Is the line automatically inserted into every Reds trade story? How much was Guillen making this year?

KYRedsFan
07-30-2003, 05:17 PM
Okay, this brings me two steps back from the ledge. Like the two arms in this deal, and perhaps there is someone at the wheel in the FO. We still really are hurting from the Willy deal, and it will take a serious arm or two from Boone to make up for it. GABP may be a nightmare park for Harang though.

KittyDuran
07-30-2003, 05:18 PM
Is the line automatically inserted into every Reds trade story? How much was Guillen making this year? Not much for this year - maybe they were thinking ahead about how much he would command...

djeternal
07-30-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by max venable
Harang is not a lefty, is he?

Also


So what do the Reds do at 3B after Aaron is gone? I'm not convinced that Larson is the answer.

No, Larson IS the answer, cause he's cheaper!!!!!!!!

UC_Ken
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
My second concern is that the A's are dealing him, and despite what Moneyball says, they don't really trade away very many good players.
Yea, Berroa's only going to be AL rookie of the year this season.

GriffeyFan
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
I think whoever said this might be forcing Gillick's hand is implying that the M's chief competition just upgraded its offense. Now will the M's do the same.

If Seattle adds Boone to its lineup, that's a pretty balanced club top to bottom.

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
Why do we make threads like this one "sticky" when it's going to stay at the top anyway?

15fan
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
With Guillen gone, there's now plenty of OF time for Wily Mo once he finishes his rehab assignment.

(Assuming Wily's not included in another deal in the next 24 hours or so...)

Might as well use the next 8 weeks to see if Wily's worth the contractual constraints.

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by djeternal
Anyway, with this trade, we don't have our 'MVP' anymore, and will have no real run production anymore. Forget about fun with this team for this year or the next 3 years.

You mean to say that until today, you were still holding out hope for next year? Why?
The more players the Reds dump in the next few days, the more convinced I'll be that they've realized it's time to rebuild. It was time to rebuild before this year even started, but the stupid Bowden 2003/new park declaration put it off. I hate to sound so pessimistic, but at this point (well, before this week) anybody who thought this team had a snowball's chance in hell of making noise next year was deluding themselves.

KittyDuran
07-30-2003, 05:19 PM
Whatever the case, I am not happy with this trade. This guy has been in the minors for 6 years (Valentine). Harang has been in the minors for 5 years. Hopefully they will work out, as optimistic you are. If they were not pitchers I would be concerned... isn't one of them 24 years old?

snowstorm
07-30-2003, 05:20 PM
I am thrilled with this deal.

I doubt Guillen would have re-signed here anyway.

savafan
07-30-2003, 05:20 PM
I believe Guillen made the minimum, as he was signed to a non-guaranteed minor league deal in spring training

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by djeternal


Anyway, with this trade, we don't have our 'MVP' anymore, and will have no real run production anymore. Forget about fun with this team for this year or the next 3 years.



As Guillen was a FA after this season, we've traded 2 months of Guillen. We csan still sign him as a FA, which though unlikely, is probably no worse chance than if we kept him.

RFS62
07-30-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig
As Guillen was a FA after this season, we've traded 2 months of Guillen. We csan still sign him as a FA, which though unlikely, is probably no worse chance than if we kept him.


EXACTLY!!!!

butlerbulldogs
07-30-2003, 05:22 PM
I like Guillen alot, but lets be honest we don't need him w/ Dunn,Kearns, and Griffey (next year),
Harang will be our #1, he is actually owned in fantasy baseball leagues haha:beerme:

Chip R
07-30-2003, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by max venable
Why do we make threads like this one "sticky" when it's going to stay at the top anyway? So we avoid 10 threads about the same subject.

JoeAvgFan
07-30-2003, 05:23 PM
Will WMP now get some ML ABs. Its the minors but he's ding very well in Louisville on his rehab assigment.

Clemson
07-30-2003, 05:24 PM
[i]
My second concern is that the A's are dealing him, and despite what Moneyball says, they don't really trade away very many good players. [/B]

First, you have to remember that Moneyball is very pro-Beane and was written by a guy who loved the way Beane worked, it was not meant to make him look bad at all.

Second, they have also traded Eric Hinske away who is a very good 3B

savafan
07-30-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig
As Guillen was a FA after this season, we've traded 2 months of Guillen. We csan still sign him as a FA, which though unlikely, is probably no worse chance than if we kept him.

Interesting. Unlikely, yes, but seeing as how this team isn't going anywhere this year, they deal Guillen and then the new GM resigns him for next year. It's not unheard of (see Lofton, Kenny)

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by GriffeyFan
I think whoever said this might be forcing Gillick's hand is implying that the M's chief competition just upgraded its offense. Now will the M's do the same.

If Seattle adds Boone to its lineup, that's a pretty balanced club top to bottom.
Anyone else notice Carlos Guillen went on the DL last night/this morning? He's supposed to be out 3-6 weeks. So if they think Boone can handle SS, they could use him there or at 3B. Great timing by Carlos... for the Reds, anyhow.

Terry
07-30-2003, 05:25 PM
OK, we just lost our best hitter, and soon may lose Aaron, who IMO is our second best hitter. Our offense was bad enough already, but it looks like it's going to get a lot worse. :eek:

Thank goodness pitching help is on the way! :thumbup:

Rojo
07-30-2003, 05:26 PM
Whether you like Harang or Valentine or not is almost beside the point. The point is that these are the kind of guys we should be getting back - players that either ML-ready or have electric stuff. And not Class-A middle-of-the-rotation maybes and toolsy outfielders.

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:26 PM
The M's got Sanchez to replace Carlos.

haassolo
07-30-2003, 05:26 PM
as for the money thing don't assume the reds did not ask. oakland does not have a lot of money to spend, so guillen is a good option because they don't have to pay too much salary wise. Also, the Reds would probably except cash for Guillen but, Oakland has none, therefore the Reds were forced (thankfully) to take talent. If this was a deal with any other team it would probably be Harang or Valentin and cash, but Oakland has no cash and needed to throw both guys in. Oakland was probably scared that someone with cash like the Yankees or Cubs would come along and offer a comparable player to Harang or Valentine and cash, so Oakland had to anty up on this one.

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 05:27 PM
Yep. Beane has no problem giving up value to get value, although he obviously expects to get the better end of most of his deals.

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:27 PM
Anyone else want to take a stab at a lineup?

C LaRue
1B Casey
2B Jiminez
SS Olmedo
3B Larson
OF Ruben
OF Reggie
OF Dunn

15fan
07-30-2003, 05:27 PM
from espn.com:

The skinny on Harang (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6936)

6'7" & 240 lbs.

That's an Adam Dunn build.

Also have him listed as a flyball/finesse pitcher.

Maybe that Don Gullett fella can help Aaron coax a few more mph out of his heater...

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:29 PM
NO! KEEP DON GULLET AWAY FROM THIS DUDE!!!

JoeAvgFan
07-30-2003, 05:29 PM
I hope WMP gets some regular time in CF. We need to develop him or shed him.

Chip R
07-30-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by 15fan
from espn.com:

The skinny on Harang (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6936)

6'7" & 240 lbs.

That's an Adam Dunn build.

Also have him listed as a flyball/finesse pitcher.

Maybe that Don Gullett fella can help Aaron coax a few more mph out of his heater... The skinny on a guy who weighs 240? :lol:

Rojo
07-30-2003, 05:29 PM
If the A's win the Series, then they did win this trade. But, so what. Harang and Valentine might be Tim Pugh and Marc Kroon, but add arms we must.

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by max venable
The M's got Sanchez to replace Carlos.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

haassolo
07-30-2003, 05:30 PM
Offensively the reds are fine, we need pitching. Yes, guillen was our best hitter but will he be our best hitter next year and worth the money the he will demand? I would rather have pitching, it goes a lot farther and the Reds are learning that right now. I hope the WMP gives some playing time now in the Majors and then we can move him to the fall league in Arizona and them get him some reps in a domincan league

LexingtonRedsFan
07-30-2003, 05:31 PM
Went and read the article regarding Valentine on the Sacremento website and then found their article on the trade----they have announced who the 3rd player is--Jeff Bruksch


Two River Cats pitchers traded to Reds

A's Acquire Jose Guillen From Cincinnati

July 30, 2003

Aaron Harang, Joe Valentine and Jeff Bruksch Dealt to the Reds

OAKLAND, Calif. - The Oakland A's today acquired outfielder Jose Guillen from the Cincinnati Reds in exchange for minor league right handed pitchers Aaron Harang, Joe Valentine and Jeff Bruksch.

Guillen was batting .337 with 23 home runs and 63 RBI in 91 games with the Reds and is currently third in the National League in batting and fourth in slugging. He has batted .314 or better in each of the first four months of the season and has nine home runs and 24 RBI in 26 games in July. The 27-year old Guillen was leading the Reds in batting and doubles (21) and was second in home runs and RBI. His 23 home runs are a career high and his .337 batting average is 63 points better than his previous career best of .274 in 2001 with Tampa Bay. Guillen began the season at Triple-A Louisville but was promoted to Cincinnati on April 8 when Ken Griffey, Jr. went on the disabled list. He is eligible for free agency at the end of this season.

Guillen made his major league debut with Pittsburgh in 1997 and has played for the Pirates (1997-99), Tampa Bay (1999-2001), Arizona (2002) and Cincinnati (2002-03) during his seven seasons in the majors. He hit 14 home runs in each of his first two seasons with the Pirates, his best figures prior to this year, and had a career high 84 RBI with Pittsburgh in 1998. The native of the Dominican Republic is a .270 career hitter with 75 home runs and 331 RBI in 705 major league games.

Harang, 25, has split the 2003 season between Oakland and Triple-A Sacramento. He was 1-3 with a 5.34 ERA in seven games, six starts, with Oakland and 8-2 with a 2.71 ERA in 12 starts with Sacramento. Valentine, who was acquired in the Keith Foulke trade, has spent the entire season at Sacramento and is 1-3 with four saves and a 4.82 ERA in 40 relief appearances. Bruksch, the A's 5th round pick in the 2001 draft, was 10-8 with a 5.13 ERA in 23 games at Single-A Modesto.

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Rojo
If the A's win the Series, then they did win this trade. But, so what. Harang and Valentine might be Tim Pugh and Marc Kroon, but add arms we must.

If the A's win the series and the arms pan out, we both win the trade. It can happen.

max venable
07-30-2003, 05:31 PM
Yes. Put WMP in the lineup now and just leave him there. Why not?

Then let's see if we can somehow dump Casey and move Dunn to 1B.

DeadRedinCT
07-30-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by max venable
Anyone else want to take a stab at a lineup?

C LaRue
1B Casey
2B Jiminez
SS Olmedo
3B Larson
OF Ruben
OF Reggie
OF Dunn

If/when Boone is traded, this would be my lineup:

2B Jimenez
SS Olmedo
1B Casey
LF Dunn
RF Mateo
3B Branyan
C LaRue
CF Taylor (Pena if healthy and recalled)

I'd like to see what Branyan could do if given consistent plate appearances.

cincinnati chili
07-30-2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by djeternal
Whatever the case, I am not happy with this trade. This guy has been in the minors for 6 years (Valentine). Harang has been in the minors for 5 years. Hopefully they will work out, as optimistic you are. Remember, JimBo made trades in the last 5 years for 40 pitching prospects.....and who do we have now?

Anyway, with this trade, we don't have our 'MVP' anymore, and will have no real run production anymore. Forget about fun with this team for this year or the next 3 years.

Thanks Mr. Allen and Lindner.

Please sensible fans.....DO NOT GO TO the GABP!!!!!!!! It's not a palace for the fans as promised, it's Lindner's and Allen's playpen.

I'm trying to do the math here. Valentine is 23 and will be the rest of the season. He went to junior college. How could he have played in the minors for 6 years?

LexingtonRedsFan
07-30-2003, 05:34 PM
Here is the link to the player profile page for Jeff Bruksch

http://modestoathletics.com/ (http://)

Golgafrinchan
07-30-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by LexingtonRedsFan
Went and read the article regarding Valentine on the Sacremento website and then found their article on the trade----they have announced who the 3rd player is--Jeff Bruksch
He's 23 years old.

So far this year, he has a 5.13 ERA at high-A, with 87/54 K/BB in 126+ innings. Not very impressive.

Last year, he posted a 4.65 ERA, but with a much better 163/66 K/BB ratio in 149 innings.

Sounds like a wild card to me.

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by cincinnati chili
I'm trying to do the math here. Valentine is 23 and will be the rest of the season. He went to junior college. How could he have played in the minors for 6 years?

Hey, I graduated from high school at 18, went to university for 6 years, and have worked for 23 more, and I'm still 39.

It's the new math.

wheels
07-30-2003, 05:36 PM
I love it.

And you know what? If they can't be in a pennant race, the next best thing is a good old fashioned fire sale.

Arms for the poor!

cincinnati chili
07-30-2003, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Arschloch
He's 23 years old.

So far this year, he has a 5.13 ERA at high-A, with 87/54 K/BB in 126+ innings. Not very impressive.

Last year, he posted a 4.65 ERA, but with a much better 163/66 K/BB ratio in 149 innings.

Sounds like a wild card to me.

Just so people are clear, Arschlock is talking about the 3rd guy in the deal. Not to bust your chops, but your quote referred to Valentine, who had a 2.44 career minor league ERA until this year.

Cedric
07-30-2003, 05:38 PM
Guess it's not Komine.

djeternal
07-30-2003, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig
Hey, I graduated from high school at 18, went to university for 6 years, and have worked for 23 more, and I'm still 39.

It's the new math.


The years are according to Lance McAllister on 1360.

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 05:39 PM
PITCHERS W-L PCT ERA G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H AB TBF R ER HR SH SF HB BB IB SO WP BK 0H 1H 2H 3H
Bruksch, Jeffrey 10- 8 .556 5.13 23 23 0 0 0 0 126.1 144 492 559 84 72 14 1 8 4 54 0 87 19 1 0 0 0 0


He was drafted in 2001 out of Stanford. Looks like the fringe-prospect type.

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 05:42 PM
Aaron Harang - S - Cincinnati Reds Jul 30

Reds acquired RHP Aaron Harang and RHP Joe Valentine from the Athletics for OF Jose Guillen.

A nice return for a player who is going to be a free agent after the season. Harang might be assigned to the minors initially, but he should soon move into Cincinnati's rotation and could have a little fantasy value during the final two months. He'll probably be a decent fourth starter for the next few years.


Joe Valentine - R - Cincinnati Reds Jul 30

RHP Joe Valentine was traded from Oakland to Cincinnati in a three-player deal.

Valentine, who was acquired by the A's from the White Sox in the Billy Koch-Keith Foulke deal, has had a disappointing season, posting a 4.82 ERA in 40 relief appearances for Triple-A Sacramento. He's still a quality relief prospect, and there's a slight chance that he'll become Cincinnati's closer during 2004. Expect him to join the team in September.

knuckler
07-30-2003, 05:43 PM
Thank God Miley is experienced at shuffling rosters. This week, he's the perfect man for the job.

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by djeternal
The years are according to Lance McAllister on 1360.

Tell Lance he's wrong, then. Valentine was drafted in 1999.

M2
07-30-2003, 05:43 PM
Out of Stanford? Maybe he's the new GM.

Count me among those who figure it's time to toss Wily Mo into the starting lineup upon his recall and leave him there until he's traded or the season ends.

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 05:46 PM
From ESPN article (fantasy write-up section)

Something that should not be forgotten: Harang had terrific minor league numbers and could be a valuable starting pitcher for the Reds.

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by M2
Count me among those who figure it's time to toss Wily Mo into the starting lineup upon his recall and leave him there until he's traded or the season ends.

Makes sense. If we can't give him developmental at-bats during the seasonal equivalent of garbage time, when would we ever?

knuckler
07-30-2003, 05:46 PM
From Baseball America, Oakland's top 10 prospects before the 2003 season:

Joe Valentine, rhp

Age: 23. B-T: R-R. Ht.: 6-2. Wt.: 195. Drafted: Jefferson Davis (Ala.) JC, 1999 (26th round). Signed by: George Bradley/Warren Hughes (White Sox).

Background: The White Sox lost Valentine to the Tigers in the 2001 major league Rule 5 draft, then got him back when he showed little command in spring training with Detroit. He led the minors with 36 saves in 2002, then came to Oakland in the Keith Foulke/Billy Koch trade in December. Valentine held opponents to a .173 average and has allowed just 89 hits in 160 innings over the last three seasons.

Strengths: There’s no subtlety with Valentine. He’s a fastball/slider pitcher who can hit 96 mph, and he keeps hitters off-balance by busting heat inside when they appear too comfortable. There are nights when his slider is filthy, and his pitches complement each other well.

Weaknesses: Valentine can be wild and has averaged nearly a walk per two innings as a pro. But because he is so tough to hit, the walks rarely come back to haunt him.

The Future: Few minor league closers turn into major league closers, but the A’s think Valentine could be an exception. Foulke becomes a free agent after the 2003 season, so Oakland could look to Valentine as soon as 2004. He should make his big league debut at some point in 2003.


Is this guy Scott Williamson's clone?

haassolo
07-30-2003, 05:50 PM
Wow...there is a Jefferson Davis College. Unbelievable

paintmered
07-30-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by knuckler

Is this guy Scott Williamson's clone?


Those were my exact thoughts as I was reading through that.

CougarQuest
07-30-2003, 05:51 PM
Now this is the type of trade I expected the Reds to make for Williamson.

Phhhl
07-30-2003, 05:54 PM
Put me down in favor of the deal. I knew very little about Harang when I heard it announced on the radio, but had heard the name on Sportscenter in the past. I know that's lame, but I don't follow the AL at all. I like his numbers, his age, etc... Getting ANOTHER arm in Valentine is icing on the cake. Guillen was gone after the season, so this was a no brainer. If we can get some more arms from the Mariners for Aaron, let's proceed.

Red Leader
07-30-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by CougarQuest
Now this is the type of trade I expected the Reds to make for Williamson.

Yea, with this return for Guillen, I'm really surprised by the return in the Williamson trade. Just goes to show you, if you don't take money back ($1.2M) you can get some good prospects if you deal with the right team. I hope we don't make another deal with Boston for about 10 years. They don't have any prospects that I am interested in below the Youkillis, Sanchez level.

Terry
07-30-2003, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by haassolo
Offensively the reds are fine, we need pitching.

We obviously need pitching, but I wouldn't say our offense is fine. We rank 27th out of 30 major league teams in hitting, and lead in strikeouts by a mile.

vic715
07-30-2003, 05:58 PM
excellent trade,I'bring Pena back and see what he can do for the rest of the season. Nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

reds_01
07-30-2003, 06:01 PM
We got basically nothing out of that trade, we could have gotten so much better for Guillen. Please reply to this and tell me how you feel.

REDREAD
07-30-2003, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig
As Guillen was a FA after this season, we've traded 2 months of Guillen. We csan still sign him as a FA, which though unlikely, is probably no worse chance than if we kept him.

I think it's safe to assume that relations with Guillen are so strained, we have a zero percentage chance of signing him as a FA.. The dude just packed up his stuff and hoped to be traded yestereday.. Somehow, I doubt he'd even consider coming back next year.

In contrast, Lofton loved the Tribe and was hurt by the trade.
Guillen is probably doing the happy dance now.. And I'm happy for him. This is an excellent opportunity for him to be in a pennant race.

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by Terry
We obviously need pitching, but I wouldn't say our offense is fine. We rank 27th out of 30 major league teams in hitting, and lead in strikeouts by a mile.

We are if you base hitting ability on BA, as opposed to runs.

I count offense by how many runs you put on the board, and we are middle of the pack in the NL.

REDREAD
07-30-2003, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Rojo
Whether you like Harang or Valentine or not is almost beside the point. The point is that these are the kind of guys we should be getting back - players that either ML-ready or have electric stuff. And not Class-A middle-of-the-rotation maybes and toolsy outfielders.

I agree completely Rojo.. Both of them will proabably be on the big league team next year (due to the impending emptying of the bullpen, I expect Valentine has an inside track).

Worse case, Harang is mediocre, but we pay him about 4 million less than Dempster for his mediocrity. But Dempster is a pretty low bar to surpass ;)

PuffyPig
07-30-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by REDREAD
I agree completely Rojo.. Both of them will proabably be on the big league team next year (due to the impending emptying of the bullpen, I expect Valentine has an inside track).



Both will be with the Reds next season. I expect both to be with us this year. Harang, in particular, has little to learn in AAA.

Griffey30
07-30-2003, 06:10 PM
I am not overly impressed with this trade, Aaron Harang's ceiling is not that high but at least he is Major league ready.:rolleyes:

REDREAD
07-30-2003, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Griffey30
I am not overly impressed with this trade, Aaron Harang's ceiling is not that high but at least he is Major league ready.:rolleyes:

Yep, welcome to "lowered expectations"..

The Reds are at the point where they need semi-respectable cheap bodies to man the ship, and plenty of them though.

Harang isn't going to lead us anywhere, but at least he hopefully plugs a hole in the rotation.

Phhhl
07-30-2003, 06:16 PM
For the life of me, I can't understand why Guillen would have a "strained" relationship with the team that saved him from baseball exhile and gave him a chance to rejuvenate his career.

red-in-la
07-30-2003, 06:18 PM
Posted by M2:
Count me among those who figure it's time to toss Wily Mo into the starting lineup upon his recall and leave him there until he's traded or the season ends.

I agree M2.....I feel the same about Olmedo....and GULP....if indeed Boone is traded, I feel the same about Larson at 3B.

Shoot. If you are owned by Carl Lindner, you may as well look like the Brewers.

Larkin Fan
07-30-2003, 06:24 PM
Hey, that's actually a pretty good deal!

Terry
07-30-2003, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig
I count offense by how many runs you put on the board, and we are middle of the pack in the NL.

A lot of those runs were scored in April and May, when we were on a pace to set an all-time record for home runs by one team. Our offense has been a lot different the past two months. And how bad would our June/July offense have been without Guillen? I'm not against trading Guillen, but from here on we need to make sure we don't trade away so much offense that we can't score for our new starting pitchers.

Woe is me, the lifelong Reds fan. :D

CougarQuest
07-30-2003, 06:50 PM
By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer
July 30, 2003
CINCINNATI (AP) -- The Oakland Athletics bulked up their outfield by getting Jose Guillen from the Cincinnati Reds on Wednesday for right-hander Aaron Harang and two minor league pitchers.

Guillen was the Reds' top hitter, filling in during Ken Griffey Jr.'s two serious injuries. He was hitting .337 -- third in the National League -- with 23 homers and 63 RBIs in 91 games.

The A's felt they needed a more productive outfield to pull off another one of their second-half surges and overtake Seattle in the AL West. Oakland is second-last in the league in batting average.

Eric Byrnes was the only consistent outfielder in the first half, but he started to tail off after the All-Star break. Chris Singleton, signed to a one-year contract in the offseason, lost his job and has been on the bench.

The 27-year-old Guillen is going to his fifth team in seven years. He finally started living up to expectations in Cincinnati, but bristled at his backup role when Griffey was healthy enough to play.

``I appreciate the Reds giving me a new life, so I could show people I can still play every day,'' Guillen said. ``I would just love to stay here. I haven't felt so comfortable in a long time.''

He was comfortable, but not always happy. When Griffey returned from a dislocated shoulder in May, Guillen demanded a trade rather than returning to a backup role. Guillen also threw three bats against a clubhouse wall in June after learning he wasn't in the starting lineup that day.

Guillen couldn't move ahead of Griffey, Adam Dunn or Austin Kearns. He was interested in staying in Cincinnati next season, but not as a backup. The Reds decided to trade him rather than letting him leave as a free agent and getting nothing in return.

The A's also sent the Reds right-handers Joe Valentine and Jeff Bruksch.

``Several clubs were interested in him,'' scouting director Leland Maddox said. ``It was a matter of getting the best package we could put together of guys who are ready for the major leagues. The theme is pitching, pitching, pitching.''

It was the Reds' second trade in two days since they fired general manager Jim Bowden and manager Bob Boone. The Reds sent closer Scott Williamson to Boston late Tuesday night for prospects.

The trade of Williamson stunned the clubhouse. Guillen's trade was no surprise -- he had packed up belongings in the clubhouse this week, hoping to leave.

As the rest of the players put on their game uniforms for the annual team photo on Wednesday afternoon, Guillen stayed in T-shirt and shorts.

``What do you think?'' he said. ``It makes no sense to go outside and take a picture.''

He eventually suited up and was the last one to join the team photo. Afterward, he sat in front of the dugout and did a television interview while the rest of the team did the mandatory pregame stretch. Several teammates called for him to join them, but he ignored them.

Five minutes into the interview, a teammate hit him in the face with a paper plate slathered with shaving cream. Guillen wiped it away and kept on doing the interview while his teammates worked out.

An hour after he had his picture taken as part of the 2003 Reds, he got word that he was traded.

Harang opened the season at Triple-A Sacramento, went 7-2 with a 2.38 ERA, then was called up. He was 1-3 with a 5.34 ERA in seven games before he was sent back to the minors.

Valentine was 1-3 with a 4.82 ERA and four saves for Sacramento. Bruksch was 10-8 with a 5.13 ERA in 23 starts for Class-A Modesto.

Puffy
07-30-2003, 06:53 PM
Now this is all I was asking for

I was, and am, one of the doomsayers and Allen bashers. But this trade is fine with me because we at least got useable prospects who have potential. If they keep getting back real prospects then things will not be as bleak as I feared

However, it is equally clear that the Reds, who forced the taxpayers of Hamilton County into financining their brand new ballpark are going to go into next season with a payroll equal to or less than what they had before the new ballpark - and they are doing it in less than one year. Even the Pirates raised payroll for over two years before they did the fire sale. Of course the Pirates are a horrible team, and probably a bad barometer, but the fact remains.

Lindner got a new stadium, new revenues, concession monies, naming rights for his company at below market cost and for this he reaised payroll less than 10 million (as it stands right noe, cause that number could decrease if they trade away enough players and get more cash back)

Enjoy next years Cincinnati Riverbats

Tony Cloninger
07-30-2003, 06:57 PM
This is to the response that the A's and i guess the Braves also....never EVER trade players that are any good.

The Reds of the late 60's early 70's had the same track record.

The Pinson for Tolan and Granger deal.

The Cardenas for Merritt deal.

The obvious HOU deals.

But later on this team got hosed for Joaquin Andujar.........the Perez deal......no matter how much Driessen needed to pay.
Trading Mike Caldwell for nada.....and not even giving him a chance to do anything with the Reds.

Trading Bill Caudill. I know these go back a ways but it shows how even the scouts in Cincy made mistakes and they were one of the best.

Basically.......sooner or later some of these teams let someone go that is good...........and for JG i think this is not bad.
He has only hit this good for 1/2 a season......if he had been doing this for the last 2-3 years then he would have merited that other OAK stud starter and maybe another starter from the minors.

CougarQuest
07-30-2003, 07:00 PM
By John Fay
The Cincinnati Enquirer

The Reds unloaded another top player today, sending outfielder Jose Guillen to the Oakland Athletics for right-handed pitchers Aaron Harang, Joe Valentine and Jeff Bruksch.

The Reds, throwing in the towel on a disappointing season, traded reliever Scott Williamson to the Boston Red Sox Tuesday night.

Guillen hit .337 with 23 home runs and 63 RBI for the Reds in only 315 at-bats. He's on a one-year contract and can become a free agent after the season.

The Reds had talks about re-signing him.

"He was willing to come back for a very reasonable offer," assistant general manager Leland Maddox said.

"I've got to appreciate the opportunity the Reds gave me," Guillen said. "They gave me a chance for a new life."

Guillen didn't even make the team out of spring training. He was called up the first week of the season after Ken Griffey Jr. got hurt. He's been the Reds' best hitter.

Harang, a 25-year-old right-hander, started the year at Triple-A Sacramento and was 7-2 with 2.38 ERA before being promoted to Oakland. He went 1-3 with 5.34 ERA with the A's, then was sent back to Sacramento. He was 1-0 with a 3.78 ERA in three starts. The win came Tuesday when we allowed two runs over six innings.

Valentine, 23, was 1-3 with 4.38 ERA at Triple-A. Bruksch, also 23, was 10-8 with a 5.13 ERA at Single-A Modesto

Anyone surprised about the bolded section? Does that change your view of the trade?

Rojo
07-30-2003, 07:29 PM
Nope.

Shaggy Sanchez
07-30-2003, 07:33 PM
I have no problem with this deal we got something in return for someone that was most likely not going to be here next year and even if he did come back at a reasonable price we would have no where to play him.

guernsey
07-30-2003, 07:34 PM
Beane makes his move, grabs Guillen from Reds
By Will Kimmey
July 30, 2003

Athletics general manager Billy Beane has made his first deadline deal of 2003. It's not his usual jaw-dropper, so there might be more to come. But he did take a step toward improving Oakland's offense by getting Jose Guillen from the Reds for minor league righthanders Joe Valentine, Aaron Harang and Jeff Bruksch.

Guillen, 27, has been a revelation for the Reds after starting the year in Triple-A. He entered 2003 with mediocre career numbers (.260 average, .305 on-base percentage, .398 slugging percentage in 2,050 at-bats) and his once-promising career appeared headed nowhere. He had reached the majors at age 20 with the Pirates in 1997 but never recovered from being rushed. Outside of showcasing one of the game's best outfield arms, he had little to boast about. But Guillen suddenly has blossomed, hitting .337-23-63 in 91 games and ranking fifth in the National League with a 1.013 on-base plus slugging percentage. Questions about his maturity and makeup have dogged him during his career, and he had a locker-room argument with former Reds manager Bob Boone over playing time earlier this year. Guillen, who's making $500,000, becomes a free agent for the first time after this season.

Valentine, 23, came to the A's in last December's Keith Foulke/Billy Koch trade with the White Sox. Valentine was a 26th-round pick out of Jefferson Davis (Ala.) JC in 1999. He led the minors with 36 saves in 2002, tying the Double-A Southern League record. Valentine goes after hitters with a fastball that can reach 96 mph and a slider that can be untouchable. He'll be ready for the majors once he masters his command, and he could battle Ryan Wagner to be Cincinnati's closer of the future. Valentine was 1-3, 4.82 with four saves in 40 games at Triple-A Sacramento. In 52 innings, he had a 53-37 strikeout-walk ratio and a .222 opponent average.

Harang, 25, has split the year between Oakland (1-3, 5.34 in seven games) and Sacramento (8-2, 2.71 in 12 outings). A 1999 sixth-round pick by the Rangers out of San Diego State, he was traded for Randy Velarde after the 2000 season. He struggled in the majors this year because his slider wasn't good enough to keep hitters honest. He likes to pitch up in the zone with an 89-92 mph fastball and also has a changeup. His overall big league record is 6-7, 4.97 in 23 games, with an 80-54 K-BB ratio and .281 opponent average in 109 innings.

Bruksch, a fifth-round pick out of Stanford in 2001, shared the career record for College World Series saves until Texas' Huston Street broke it with his fifth this year. Bruksch, 23, works almost exclusively with an 88-90 mph fastball and changeup. In 23 starts at high Class A Modesto, he was 10-8, 5.13. He also had an 87-54 K-BB ratio and .293 opponent average in 126 innings. He projects as a middle reliever.

backbencher
07-30-2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by CougarQuest
Anyone surprised about the bolded section? Does that change your view of the trade?
Guillen still can come back. See Mike Williams.

Johnny Footstool
07-30-2003, 07:52 PM
Whether you like Harang or Valentine or not is almost beside the point. The point is that these are the kind of guys we should be getting back - players that either ML-ready or have electric stuff. And not Class-A middle-of-the-rotation maybes and toolsy outfielders.

Well said, Rojo!

Ga_Red
07-30-2003, 08:04 PM
2/09/07

RFS62
07-30-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Ga_Red
a bird in the hand for 3 bushes.....

A bird that was gonna fly in two months.

letsgojunior
07-30-2003, 08:07 PM
Harang has an ERA of 5 in one of the most pitcher friendly parks in baseball.

He should fit in extremely well with our staff!

Dumpster is probably breaking him in right now. Lesson 1: How to suck and blame your problems on the manager!

malcontent
07-30-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Ga_Red
a bird in the hand for 3 bushes..... :lol:

wheels
07-30-2003, 08:12 PM
I just can't see what the problem is!

Are people really losing thier minds over Jose Guillen?

Jose Guillen?

The guy has had a terrific year. Absolutely no doubt about that.
Do people honestly think this is anything other than another guy having a carreer CONTRACT year?

He's gonna end up ripping off whoever signs him in the off season.
Count on it.

The Reds get a closer to now than future solid Major League starter and a relief pitcher with Scott Williamson - like stuff.

Oh...Boooo hoooo.

:(

malcontent
07-30-2003, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by letsgojunior
Dumpster is probably breaking him in right now. Lesson 1: How to suck and blame your problems on the manager!
John Allen makes Ryan Dempster a prophet:

With Guillen gone they are going to have to pitch a shutout to win.

westofyou
07-30-2003, 08:17 PM
Harang has an ERA of 5 in one of the most pitcher friendly parks in baseball.

Thats in a whole 18 innings, he does have a 2.32 ERA in a hitters league (PCL), Hardens was 3.15 in the same league.



With Guillen gone they are going to have to pitch a shutout to win.

Oh please.... he's gone, jump on the bandwagon coming the other way. ;)

Spring~Fields
07-30-2003, 08:17 PM
I like any trades that bring us a slew of pitching hope. As others have said Guillen was gone sooner or later.

CougarQuest
07-30-2003, 08:20 PM
See now, I like this trade. This is the type of trade I expected. I think Harang can be a good starting pitcher. I think Valentine can be good closer, if not at least a set-up pitcher. The best you could hope from Bruksch is probably middle relief down the road.

I still can't believe that they couldn't have gotten a better player than a 22 year old single A pitcher for Williamson.

letsgojunior
07-30-2003, 08:25 PM
Thats in a whole 18 innings, he does have a 2.32 ERA in a hitters league (PCL), Hardens was 3.15 in the same league.


That's just a split from this year. I was speaking from the perspective that he has 108 IP @ at a 4.97 ERA for his career, even though that park presents a tremendous advantage to lower his overall ERA.

In fact, over his career, one can argue that Harang has benefitted tremendously from Oakland: 3.64 ERA home 6.57 road.

http://bigleaguers.yahoo.com/mlbpa/players/6936/splits?year=career&type=Pitching

What's going to happen when he regularly pitches in one of the top 3 home run parks in baseball?

Stormy
07-30-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by westofyou
Thats in a whole 18 innings, he does have a 2.32 ERA in a hitters league (PCL), Hardens was 3.15 in the same league.



I imagine she is alluding to his *career* 4.97ERA and the unpleasant secondary barometers which accompany them, over the much more representative span of 108IPs.

He has 6 starts and 30IP under his belt this year, and that ERA, OPS against, and WHIP are uglier than his delivery. And an ugly home/road split, to boot.

CougarQuest
07-30-2003, 08:31 PM
If I am listening right, doesn't it sound like Kullman made the trade of Williamson and Maddux made the trade of Guillen?

IslandRed
07-30-2003, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Santo Alcala
For the life of me, I can't understand why Guillen would have a "strained" relationship with the team that saved him from baseball exile and gave him a chance to rejuvenate his career.

Because, as someone put it once, gratitude is the least deeply felt of human emotions.

REDREAD
07-30-2003, 09:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------For the life of me, I can't understand why Guillen would have a "strained" relationship with the team that saved him from baseball exile and gave him a chance to rejuvenate his career.

Well. because he said he'd resign only if he could start full time.

Because he complained about playing time

Because he didn't even want to be in the team picture

Because he packed his stuff early, hoping to be traded.

To me, those actions far outwiegh that one feel good quote about him wanting to come back.

cReds1
07-30-2003, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by wheels
I just can't see what the problem is!

Are people really losing thier minds over Jose Guillen?

Jose Guillen?

The guy has had a terrific year. Absolutely no doubt about that.
Do people honestly think this is anything other than another guy having a carreer CONTRACT year?

He's gonna end up ripping off whoever signs him in the off season.
Count on it.

The Reds get a closer to now than future solid Major League starter and a relief pitcher with Scott Williamson - like stuff.

Oh...Boooo hoooo.

:(

I am sure many fans have made the same statement you made about the other players we lost or traded and they have done absolutely nothing in the Majors right now. :rolleyes: I can name a few that are still doing pretty darn good, can you? I know you can.

:D

wheels
07-30-2003, 09:49 PM
Huh?

cReds1
07-30-2003, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by wheels
Huh?

Please explain what you meant by Guillen and his career year? You are saying he will do nothing else with another team, right? If so, I am saying look around the Majors at our previous players we once had and many people like yourself made the EXACT same statement in what you posted and those players are still in the Majors producing and having just as good years as they did here or even better.

Can you name me a few? I can.

guernsey
07-30-2003, 09:57 PM
I'm willing to bet that Jose doesn't have another 1.000 OPS season in him.

Griffey30
07-30-2003, 09:59 PM
Not to change the subject but here is what rotoword thinks of our newest pitcher.

Aaron Harang is in the A's bullpen for now, but how long he remains there is undetermined.
Harang could go back to Triple-A Sacramento to work on consistency, but he was 7-2 with a 2.38 ERA at Sacramento when he was called up, only to end up pitching just once in his first 14 days with the A's, which he thinks threw him off. Harang believes consistent work will help him be a consistent pitcher. Harang can still be a worthy bottom-of-the-rotation pitcher, but has no value unless he's starting regularly


Doesn't sound real good

SteelSD
07-30-2003, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by cReds1
Please explain what you meant by Guillen and his career year? You are saying he will do nothing else with another team, right? If so, I am saying look around the Majors at our previous players we once had and many people like yourself made the EXACT same statement in what you posted and those players are still in the Majors producing and having just as good years as they did here or even better.

Can you name me a few? I can.

Ok. Find the Reds on other teams that once had a 1.000 OPS with us (heck, you can use .900 OPS if you want) and tell us which of them are doing "just as well" on other teams.

In fact, find some of the pitchers we've dealt after "career years" and tell us how well they're doing on other teams also.

Guillen may certainly turn in .800-.850 OPS seasons from here on out. That's not producing "just as well".

Buy low- sell high. That's the name of the game in a small market.

Now...we just have to figure out if we actually "sold high". That's where the value of this trade lies.

wheels
07-30-2003, 10:15 PM
This was a freak show of a performance by Guillen. Plain and simple. And don't tell me you haven't seen lots of players have big contract years only fall on thier arse the very next year.

It happens all of the time.

I'm not sure Harang is going to be a savior. How could we know the answer? I do like the fact that he's 25, major league ready, and has something of an upside.

What did the Reds have before they CLAIMED GUILLEN OFF OF WAIVERS? Certianly not Harang and Joe Valentine. That turned out to be a pretty good waiver wire claim.

BuckeyeRedleg
07-30-2003, 10:26 PM
This is a good trade for both teams.

GriffeyFan
07-30-2003, 10:38 PM
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/030730guillen.html

Beane makes his move, grabs Guillen from Reds
By Will Kimmey
July 30, 2003

Athletics general manager Billy Beane has made his first deadline deal of 2003. It's not his usual jaw-dropper, so there might be more to come. But he did take a step toward improving Oakland's offense by getting Jose Guillen from the Reds for minor league righthanders Joe Valentine, Aaron Harang and Jeff Bruksch.

Guillen, 27, has been a revelation for the Reds after starting the year in Triple-A. He entered 2003 with mediocre career numbers (.260 average, .305 on-base percentage, .398 slugging percentage in 2,050 at-bats) and his once-promising career appeared headed nowhere. He had reached the majors at age 20 with the Pirates in 1997 but never recovered from being rushed. Outside of showcasing one of the game's best outfield arms, he had little to boast about. But Guillen suddenly has blossomed, hitting .337-23-63 in 91 games and ranking fifth in the National League with a 1.013 on-base plus slugging percentage. Questions about his maturity and makeup have dogged him during his career, and he had a locker-room argument with former Reds manager Bob Boone over playing time earlier this year. Guillen, who's making $500,000, becomes a free agent for the first time after this season.

Valentine, 23, came to the A's in last December's Keith Foulke/Billy Koch trade with the White Sox. Valentine was a 26th-round pick out of Jefferson Davis (Ala.) JC in 1999. He led the minors with 36 saves in 2002, tying the Double-A Southern League record. Valentine goes after hitters with a fastball that can reach 96 mph and a slider that can be untouchable. He'll be ready for the majors once he masters his command, and he could battle Ryan Wagner to be Cincinnati's closer of the future. Valentine was 1-3, 4.82 with four saves in 40 games at Triple-A Sacramento. In 52 innings, he had a 53-37 strikeout-walk ratio and a .222 opponent average.

Harang, 25, has split the year between Oakland (1-3, 5.34 in seven games) and Sacramento (8-2, 2.71 in 12 outings). A 1999 sixth-round pick by the Rangers out of San Diego State, he was traded for Randy Velarde after the 2000 season. He struggled in the majors this year because his slider wasn't good enough to keep hitters honest. He likes to pitch up in the zone with an 89-92 mph fastball and also has a changeup. His overall big league record is 6-7, 4.97 in 23 games, with an 80-54 K-BB ratio and .281 opponent average in 109 innings.

Bruksch, a fifth-round pick out of Stanford in 2001, shared the career record for College World Series saves until Texas' Huston Street broke it with his fifth this year. Bruksch, 23, works almost exclusively with an 88-90 mph fastball and changeup. In 23 starts at high Class A Modesto, he was 10-8, 5.13. He also had an 87-54 K-BB ratio and .293 opponent average in 126 innings. He projects as a middle reliever.

cReds1
07-30-2003, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD
Ok. Find the Reds on other teams that once had a 1.000 OPS with us (heck, you can use .900 OPS if you want) and tell us which of them are doing "just as well" on other teams.

In fact, find some of the pitchers we've dealt after "career years" and tell us how well they're doing on other teams also.

Guillen may certainly turn in .800-.850 OPS seasons from here on out. That's not producing "just as well".

Buy low- sell high. That's the name of the game in a small market.

Now...we just have to figure out if we actually "sold high". That's where the value of this trade lies.

I never said anything about pitchers but, I will just give ya a few of what I mean.....

Brett Boone, .859 OPS with us in 94; .950 OPS in 2001 with Seattle
and right now, .965
Cameron .826 OPS with us in 99; .833 in 2001 with Seattle
D. Young .856 OPS with us in 99; .908 right now with Detroit
Encarnacion is about the same so this is what I mean when a player will do just as good or better with another team and what did we get from these players that are still here and putting up these numbers? Please tell me. What kind of pitching prospects did we get? What about FA pitchers?


:lol:

guernsey
07-30-2003, 11:25 PM
From Team One Baseball:



12/20/2002 1:35:02 PM - 2003 Scouting Report
Valentine was the minor league reliver of the year- at least in the eyes of Rolaids and after that he came over in the Foulke/Koch deal. I have little to go on as I missed him in the AFL but based on his 2002 numbers alone, he’s got to have a spot on this list.
By report, Valentine’s biggest pitch is his fastball that has some action and ‘plus’ velocity. Apparently he’s missing some bats with it and his second pitch breaker as he struck out 63 in 59+ innings at Double-A. He’ll need to sharpen his command and cut down on some of the walks (30 last year) but he certainly was locked in to end the season- he converted his last 24 chances.

With Jim Mecir shelved for the first several months of the season, there is a spot for a set-up guy in Oakland. Valentine should have at least a puncher’s chance to land that spot. He’ll be 23 for all of 2003.

-Scott Zilmer

SteelSD
07-30-2003, 11:28 PM
Originally posted by cReds1
I never said anything about pitchers but, I will just give ya a few of what I mean.....

Brett Boone, .859 OPS with us in 94; .950 OPS in 2001 with Seattle
and right now, .965
Cameron .826 OPS with us in 99; .833 in 2001 with Seattle
D. Young .856 OPS with us in 99; .908 right now with Detroit
Encarnacion is about the same so this is what I mean when a player will do just as good or better with another team and what did we get from these players that are still here and putting up these numbers? Please tell me. What kind of pitching prospects did we get? What about FA pitchers?


:lol:

That's it? Your idea of "career year" is a low-to-mid .800OPS season with us? Did you perhaps miss Bret Boone's .629OPS in 1996 and .630OPS in 1997? Please quit talking like Bret Boone was a huge offensive player with the Reds. That's just not true. It took SEVEN YEARS for Boone's OPS to top .800 again.

Nor is it true that Cameron or Young had "career years" with us.

You're comparing apples to...well...whatever you want to pick that is totally unlike apples.

wheels
07-31-2003, 02:34 AM
And somehow Bret got a little...ummm..bigger with Seattle. I don't recall him looking like Popeye with the Reds, or Braves.

Marty and Joe
07-31-2003, 06:52 AM
Man, I wish I had time to read all of the posts over the last few days! :eek:

I like this trade... a lot.

3 pitchers (2 of which appear to be close to ML ready) for a guy we picked up for peanuts and who most likely wasn't going to sign here next year anyway.

Great trade by the current front office and good pickup by Bowden.

guernsey
07-31-2003, 08:59 AM
From the Cincy Post:



"This year, we really have guys that are untouchable, and we weren't going to trade guys just to trade," Oakland GM Billy Beane told the Associated Press. "This wasn't a painless trade, but it was pretty easy."

MikeS21
07-31-2003, 09:52 AM
Just been reading a few other boards to get thoughts of folks outside of Cincinnati. It seems that the majority of non-Reds fans think the Guillen deal was good for BOTH teams.

Obviously, there are a few who think Beane took us to the cleaners, but most of them are A's fans comparing Harang to the A's current rotation. Harang is no Zito, Hudson, Mulder, or Harden, but few pitchers are.

But a good number of A's fans admit that they think given a shot someplace like Cincy, Harang could blossom.

One thing I did not realize is that Harang has more velocity than I first gave him credit. Evidently, when the A's allowed him to air it out, he could hit 95-96. But he is much better in the 91-93 range.

Many see Valentine as Scott Williamson's replacement.

Sometimes you just need some outside perspective.