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barnesje
02-11-2005, 03:26 PM
i realize this is a little late to make this post, but lets be honest, Eric Milton is a joke. 43 HRs given up in 201 innings (average of 5.9 innings per start) He averages one homer given up every 4.6 innings and that number will only increase playing at GABP. So, hes receiving 8.5 million for a 4.75 ERA and those horrible numbers??? Jaret Wright would have been a cheaper, younger and much better option for his club. Wade miller, with a 3.35 ERA, is in Boston right now with with a 1.5 million dollar base salary. SO, would you rather have eric Miltion or Jaret Wright and Wade Miller...both younger and better. I like the signing of Wilson, Ortiz, Randa, Merker, (Ben Webber will be a disaster) but Milton will disappoint just wait.

Boss-Hog
02-11-2005, 03:29 PM
I have a feeling you'll fit right in around here. ;)

jmcclain19
02-11-2005, 03:30 PM
Jaret Wright and Wade Miller went to the two teams who are regularly in the Top 2 or 3 in baseball, year after year.

Miller did so the day after he was released.

To regard the Reds as having a chance to sign either is a fallacy.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 03:33 PM
I would rather have signed Uncle Milton.

westofyou
02-11-2005, 03:34 PM
The Reds didn't have any jerseys with a head hole big enough for Wrights giant melon so they had to pass.

deltachi8
02-11-2005, 03:34 PM
I would rather have signed Uncle Milton.

would have brought out the ladies to the park...

CaiGuy
02-11-2005, 03:38 PM
i realize this is a little late to make this post, but lets be honest, Eric Milton is a joke. 43 HRs given up in 201 innings (average of 5.9 innings per start) He averages one homer given up every 4.6 innings and that number will only increase playing at GABP. So, hes receiving 8.5 million for a 4.75 ERA and those horrible numbers??? Jaret Wright would have been a cheaper, younger and much better option for his club. Wade miller, with a 3.35 ERA, is in Boston right now with with a 1.5 million dollar base salary. SO, would you rather have eric Miltion or Jaret Wright and Wade Miller...both younger and better. I like the signing of Wilson, Ortiz, Randa, Merker, (Ben Webber will be a disaster) but Milton will disappoint just wait.
As much as I hate it, your probably right. Milton is way overrated and overpaid. Even though it is in the realm of possibility that he'll brake out, he could be a flop. But remember, even though is numbers aren't that great, He's one of the best the Reds have. As far as the other "better, cheaper, younger" free agents, they weren't going to sign with the Reds even if the reds tried to sign them and hugely overpaid them anyways.

Redsland
02-11-2005, 03:45 PM
Someday the Anti Milton will come in glory to hurl nasty, breaking thunderbolts and smite our enemies.

It has been prophesized.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 03:48 PM
It has been prophesized.

Would that be a really big prophecy?

red-in-la
02-11-2005, 03:53 PM
Pullleeesssseee.....another we overpaid for Eric Milton thread....just what we needed to enliven a rainy Friday afternoon.....

In case you haven't realized (and I know his numbers have been high) but the Phillies park gives up TONS and TONS of HR's.....the guy still won 14 games.

Did you notice any other 14 game winners on the Reds roster?

When you find one, then post it.

BuckU
02-11-2005, 03:53 PM
Everybody needs to understand that a player has to want to sign with a team. No wonder the Yankees and BoSox got those players, those are winning teams. Just becuase a player is a free agent does not automatically mean Cincinnati can sign them.

If it's 1 a.m. and I am hungry, I might have 3 options: Wendy's, Taco Bell, or Denny's. I choose Denny's cause they have what I am hungry for and their dining room is open 24 hours I really need a bathroom cause I have been out boozing all night. Nothing against Wendy's or Taco Bell, i'm just not interested.

Bad analogy but what I am trying to say is there is a host of intangibles that nobody ever seems to take into consideration when it comes to free agency.

On another note, Miller & Wright have had arm problems...buyer beware!! Only knee problems for Milton

flyer85
02-11-2005, 03:54 PM
Did you notice any other 14 game winners on the Reds roster?


Jimmy Haynes - he won 15 once.

red-in-la
02-11-2005, 03:56 PM
Jimmy Haynes - he won 15 once.

I meant last year......

The Reds now have TWO pitchers who have won 16 games in a year in the ML in their rotation, but I don't heard many folks thanking the FO much.

westofyou
02-11-2005, 03:57 PM
I meant last year......

The Reds now have TWO pitchers who have won 16 games in a year in the ML in their rotation, but I don't heard many folks thanking the FO much.

Because wins are often a result of the teams effort more than the pitchers.


SEASON
2004

WINS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
ERA vs. the league average displayed only--not a sorting criteria
RSAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
AGE displayed only--not a sorting criteria

HOMERUNS HR W ERA RSAA AGE
1 Jamie Moyer 44 7 -.58 -22 41
2 Eric Milton 43 14 -.43 -9 28
T3 Darrell May 38 9 -.98 -25 32
T3 Bartolo Colon 38 18 -.37 -10 31
T5 Greg Maddux 35 16 0.29 13 38
T5 Matt Morris 35 15 -.41 -12 29
7 Jon Garland 34 12 -.26 1 24
T8 Ismael Valdes 33 14 -.87 -22 30
T8 Jose Lima 33 13 0.25 1 31
T8 Brian Anderson 33 6 -1.00 -22 32
T8 Javier Vazquez 33 14 -.27 -10 27
T8 Mark Buehrle 33 16 0.75 29 25
T8 Ryan Franklin 33 4 -.26 -14 31
T8 Scott Elarton 33 3 -1.35 -21 28

BuckU
02-11-2005, 03:58 PM
In addition, Milton has that one thing the Reds rotation as lacked for sometime...

The abilty to throw left-handed.




(Insert lame Jimmy Anderson/John Bale wise crack)

flyer85
02-11-2005, 03:58 PM
I meant last year......

The Reds now have TWO pitchers who have won 16 games in a year in the ML in their rotation, but I don't heard many folks thanking the FO much.

Haynes pitched last year and I never thanked the FO for signing him. As a matter of fact I took JBs name in vain that day(more than once after I heard he gave him a player option).

red-in-la
02-11-2005, 04:01 PM
Being a WINNER is also a valid pitcher's ability that I think a guy like Milton brings to the table. It is what I also like about Ortiz.

Sorry, but I just find it much nicer to hoping guys with winning career records come in a do the job for once over the retreads that have wandered through Cincy for the last several years.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:05 PM
I knew we should have traded for Chris George after the 2003 season.

westofyou
02-11-2005, 04:10 PM
Rich Wortham won 14 games once too. Dan Spillner 16.

Both had era's over 4.50

Stewie
02-11-2005, 04:15 PM
In case you haven't realized (and I know his numbers have been high) but the Phillies park gives up TONS and TONS of HR's.....the guy still won 14 games.

.


Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Did Eric Milton give up a lot of homers becuase he pitched in Citizens Bank Park, or did Citizens Bank Park give up a lot of homers becuase Eric Milton pitched there? The problem with Milton is that he gave up more homers on the road (he gave up a lot both at home and on the road), and also had the lowest GB/FB ratio in the majors....by a pretty decent margin. Milton could very well win 15 games this year, but the Reds are going to have to score a ton of runs, since he will likely give up a ton.

That said, even if Jaret Wright had considered pitching in Cincinnati, I don't think he would do that well. I don't think he'll do all that well in New York, unless Leo Mazzone decides to be the Yankees pitching coach.

deltachi8
02-11-2005, 04:17 PM
I meant last year......

The Reds now have TWO pitchers who have won 16 games in a year in the ML in their rotation, but I don't heard many folks thanking the FO much.

I refer you to Jimmy Haynes once more as evidence of how much weight the "wins" statistic holds.

BuckU
02-11-2005, 04:25 PM
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

If the Reds sat on their hands all offseason and acquired no starting pitching, there is an uproar.

If the Reds sign quality lefty starter, then you want a different free agent starter...

I just don't get the hypocrisy...

Let Milton get 15 wins and have a sub-4 ERA and suddenly that signing is looking good to all they naysayers. I can see it now...

redsfanmia
02-11-2005, 04:27 PM
Why dont we give Milton a freaking chance to don a Reds uniform before we start hating on him. I seem to remember two other Reds pitchers who gave up a ton of home runs: Tom Browning and Mario Soto. I still say that the Reds had to overpay to get Milton simpley to get him to come here. I think that some of the posters on here live in a fantasy world and believe that players want to sign in Cincinnati for below market value just to play for the Reds. I know of a few players who have done that and you all bash them all he time: Griffey and Larkin.

Matt700wlw
02-11-2005, 04:27 PM
Damned if you do, damed if you don't...

If the Reds sat on their hands all offseason and acquired no starting pitching, there is an oproar.

If the Reds sign quality lefty starter then you want a different free agent starter...

I just don't get the hypocrisy...

Let Milton get 15 wins and have a sub-4 ERA and suddenly that signing is looking good to all they naysayers. I can see it now...

I feel better...I'm not alone -- I thought maybe I was nuts (don't respond to that :D)

BuckU
02-11-2005, 04:28 PM
Why dont we give Milton a freaking chance to don a Reds uniform before we start hating on him. I seem to remember two other Reds pitchers who gave up a ton of home runs: Tom Browning and Mario Soto. I still say that the Reds had to overpay to get Milton simpley to get him to come here. I think that some of the posters on here live in a fantasy world and believe that players want to sign in Cincinnati for below market value just to play for the Reds. I know of a few players who have done that and you all bash them all he time: Griffey and Larkin.

...Very well put...

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:30 PM
Optimist - Milton will win 15 with sub 4 ERA
Pessimist - Milton will win 7 with a 5+ ERA
Realist - Milton will win around 10 games with a 4.50 ERA

Rojo
02-11-2005, 04:30 PM
Yeah they overpaid based on past history. But he's a lefty with stuff and K's who's turning 28. I haven't been a big DanO fan but this move takes eggs.

Falls City Beer
02-11-2005, 04:30 PM
Damned if you do, damed if you don't...

If the Reds sat on their hands all offseason and acquired no starting pitching, there is an oproar.

If the Reds sign quality lefty starter then you want a different free agent starter...

I just don't get the hypocrisy...

Let Milton get 15 wins and have a sub-4 ERA and suddenly that signing is looking good to all they naysayers. I can see it now...


Sub-4 ERA? When's he done that?

I'll be happy if he duplicates his 2000-2002 Metrodome numbers--good peripherals (K/BB, OPS Against, all reasonably solid if unspectacular). 2004-era Greg Maddux solid.

westofyou
02-11-2005, 04:31 PM
Browning is a a good comparison for Milton, except he burned his arm out with the screwball and Milton is a FB pitcher, and yes LH's develop later than others.

Never say never in baseball...... but when a guy gives up taters and has an era below league average for his career folks are going to look closer at his stuff and where it got them prior to being a Red.

But if you want to read a bunch of cheerleader types of posts everyday you might find that this isn't the place.

BuckU
02-11-2005, 04:35 PM
Sub-4 ERA? When's he done that?

I'll be happy if he duplicates his 2000-2002 Metrodome numbers--good peripherals (K/BB, OPS Against, all reasonably solid if unspectacular).

Nowhere in my post did I say "Based on past numbers & success", nor is it a prediction. I'm just pointing out that if it ever should happen, cause it is soooooooooo far-fetched, watch everybody jump on the bandwagon.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:36 PM
Browning is a a good comparison for Milton

WHAT???

Browning won 20 games with a 3.55ERA as a rookie in '85 and had an ERA of 3.81 or under in 5 of his first 6 seasons.

I must be reading the wrong resume for Milton.

Boss-Hog
02-11-2005, 04:38 PM
Jimmy Haynes (circa 2002) is proof enough that a pitcher should NEVER be judged based on the amount of wins he racked up in a given season while ignoring all the other stats that tell you he's a bad pitcher.

RLA, not to pick on you because I'm wrong as much as anyone, but weren't you the one who was very optimistic about the rotation going into 2003 because we had assembled a 'team of winners'?

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:38 PM
I'm just pointing out that if it ever should happen, cause it is soooooooooo far-fetched

It isn't that far-fetched. Pitchers generally will have a career season much better than their norms. Just hope he does it in either 05 or 06 and then maybe he will opt out of 07.

BuckU
02-11-2005, 04:39 PM
It isn't that far-fetched.

I know, that was just message board sarcasm.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:41 PM
However, if he does it in 2005 I would not expect a repeat in 2006. Gully will get him straightened out, turn him into another Pete Schourek he will.

redsfanmia
02-11-2005, 04:43 PM
Its hard to compare Browning and Milton because Browning in 1985 didnt pitch the Bandboxes that we have now. If Browning had pitched in Coors field, citizens park, and had his home games played in GABP who know how many Home runs he would have given up. I would take Browning or a guy like Browning (Milton) every day of the week and twice on sundays because he is going to keep you in games and pitch innings. Regaurdless of what anyone thinks Milton will be fine and win atleast 14 to 16 games every year he is healthy he seems to do it.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:46 PM
I heard Milton did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Big Klu
02-11-2005, 04:46 PM
Ricardo,

Compare Browning and Milton vs. their respective league-average ERA, and it's a very close comparison. (Remember, in the 80's when Browning pitched, a 3.50+ ERA was considered mediocre--not bad, but not especially good, either.)

ERAs across the board have gone up in the offense-happy post-1994-strike era (no pun intended).

westofyou
02-11-2005, 04:49 PM
Ricardo,

Compare Browning and Milton vs. their respective league-average ERA, and it's a very close comparison. (Remember, in the 80's when Browning pitched, a 3.50+ ERA was considered mediocre--not bad, but not especially good, either.)

ERAs across the board have gone up in the offense-happy post-1994-strike era (no pun intended).


ERIC MILTON

AGE <= 30

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1998 Twins 22 8 14 .364 32 32 1 0 0 172.1 195 113 108 70 107 5.64 -19
1999 Twins 23 7 11 .389 34 34 4 0 0 206.1 190 111 103 63 163 4.49 16
2000 Twins 24 13 10 .565 33 33 0 0 0 200 205 123 108 44 160 4.86 10
2001 Twins 25 15 7 .682 35 34 2 0 0 220.2 222 109 106 61 157 4.32 5
2002 Twins 26 13 9 .591 29 29 2 0 0 171 173 96 92 30 121 4.84 -9
2003 Twins 27 1 0 1.000 3 3 0 0 0 17 15 5 5 1 7 2.65 4
2004 Phillies 28 14 6 .700 34 34 0 0 0 201 196 110 106 75 161 4.75 -9
TOTALS 71 57 .555 200 199 9 0 0 1188.1 1196 667 628 344 876 4.76 -2
LG AVERAGE 67 67 .500 9 0 1188.1 1240 664 610 457 844 4.62 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
1998 Twins 25 10.18 13.94 5.59 3.66 1.53 0 1 0 2 772 0 9 13
1999 Twins 28 8.29 11.17 7.11 2.75 2.59 2 2 2 3 858 0 10 8
2000 Twins 35 9.23 11.52 7.20 1.98 3.64 0 5 0 7 849 0 12 11
2001 Twins 35 9.05 11.75 6.40 2.49 2.57 1 2 0 5 944 0 11 11
2002 Twins 24 9.11 10.84 6.37 1.58 4.03 1 4 0 3 707 0 10 12
2003 Twins 2 7.94 8.47 3.71 0.53 7.00 0 0 0 0 66 0 1 0
2004 Phillies 43 8.78 12.18 7.21 3.36 2.15 0 3 6 1 862 0 9 11
TOTALS 192 9.06 11.82 6.63 2.61 2.55 4 17 8 21 5058 0 62 66
LG AVERAGE 150 9.39 13.21 6.39 3.46 1.85 2 43 31 48 5184 4



AGE <= 30

YEAR TEAM AGE W L PCT G GS CG SV GF IP H R ER BB SO ERA RSAA
1984 Reds 24 1 0 1.000 3 3 0 0 0 23.1 27 4 4 5 14 1.54 6
1985 Reds 25 20 9 .690 38 38 6 0 0 261.1 242 111 103 73 155 3.55 6
1986 Reds 26 14 13 .519 39 39 4 0 0 243.1 225 123 103 70 147 3.81 3
1987 Reds 27 10 13 .435 32 31 2 0 1 183 201 107 102 61 117 5.02 -16
1988 Reds 28 18 5 .783 36 36 5 0 0 250.2 205 98 95 64 124 3.41 6
1989 Reds 29 15 12 .556 37 37 9 0 0 249.2 241 109 94 64 118 3.39 8
1990 Reds 30 15 9 .625 35 35 2 0 0 227.2 235 98 96 52 99 3.80 0
TOTALS 93 61 .604 220 219 28 0 1 1439 1376 650 597 389 774 3.73 13
LG AVERAGE 80 80 .500 26 0 1439 1370 658 587 518 925 3.67 0

YEAR TEAM HR H/9 BR/9 SO/9 BB/9 SO/BB SHO WP IBB HBP BFP BK NW NL
1984 Reds 0 10.41 12.34 5.40 1.93 2.80 0 1 0 0 95 0 1 0
1985 Reds 29 8.33 10.95 5.34 2.51 2.12 4 2 8 3 1083 0 15 14
1986 Reds 26 8.32 10.95 5.44 2.59 2.10 2 3 6 1 1016 0 14 13
1987 Reds 27 9.89 13.13 5.75 3.00 1.92 0 2 7 5 791 4 10 13
1988 Reds 36 7.36 9.91 4.45 2.30 1.94 2 2 3 7 1001 4 12 11
1989 Reds 31 8.69 11.10 4.25 2.31 1.84 2 2 10 3 1031 1 14 13
1990 Reds 24 9.29 11.54 3.91 2.06 1.90 1 5 13 5 957 1 12 12
TOTALS 173 8.61 11.19 4.84 2.43 1.99 11 17 47 24 5974 10 78 76
LG AVERAGE 121 8.57 11.98 5.79 3.24 1.79 7 46 66 27 6090 18


For pitchers who have pitched at least 1000 innings Eric Milton has the 30th best K/9 rate for LH pitchers in the history of baseball, smack between Guidry and Tug McGraw.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 04:51 PM
RSAA

Milton -2
Browning +13

The problem with Milton is that BPIs have alway said that he is a better pitcher than the ERA.

PuffyPig
02-11-2005, 05:24 PM
I refer you to Jimmy Haynes once more as evidence of how much weight the "wins" statistic holds.

Haynes won 15 games that year because he pitched well.

He bombed afterwards because of injuries and bad pitching.

Milton has always won alot of games.

There's no valid comparison between Milton and Haynes.

And wade Miller is a huge injury risk. There's no evidence he will pitch much this year.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 05:32 PM
my summation of the Milton signing

Did the Reds overpay? Probably so.
Did the othe FA starters get overpaid? Probably so.
Will Milton earn his $8M+ salary in 2005? Probably not.
WIll Milton improve the staff over 2004? Probably so.
Could the Reds have found a better way to spend it in 05? Probably not.

The only thing that bothers about the Milton deal is the out years in 06-07. If this doesn't work and attendance drops they could up trading away their young stars(Dunn adn Kearns I believe) because they don't want to pay them. That's what scares me about the Milton contract. I hope he pitches well in 05 and the Reds are competetive and that they can still afford to pay their young guys. I think 5 years from now baseball will be talking about how good Dunn and Kearns have been, I hope they are still Reds so we can get maximum enjoyment from that.

Joseph
02-11-2005, 05:34 PM
my summation of the Milton signing

Did the Reds overpay? Probably so.
Did the other FA starters get overpaid? Probably so.
Will Milton earn his $8M+ salary in 2005? Probably not.
WIll Milton improve the staff over 2004? Probably so.
Could the Reds have found a better way to spend it in 05? Probably not.


Pretty well sums up my feelings. Other name FA's weren't going to come here, so might as well roll the dice and see what Milton can do for a couple seasons.

flyer85
02-11-2005, 05:35 PM
Haynes won 15 games that year because he pitched well.


No he did not. His 2002 BPIs said he was the same pitcher that lost 17 games the year before with the Brewers. His half run lower ERA and 15 wins was nothing but good fortune. The Jimmy Haynes of 2002 was essentially the same pitcher as the 2001 pitcher., the only difference was a .5 per 9 ininng drop in his BB rate. The fact that the Reds were ignorant of that caused them to offer him an ill advised 2 year deal.

red-in-la
02-11-2005, 06:10 PM
Jimmy Haynes (circa 2002) is proof enough that a pitcher should NEVER be judged based on the amount of wins he racked up in a given season while ignoring all the other stats that tell you he's a bad pitcher.

RLA, not to pick on you because I'm wrong as much as anyone, but weren't you the one who was very optimistic about the rotation going into 2003 because we had assembled a 'team of winners'?

No Boss, I was all fired up because the Reds had assembled a rotation full of 200 innings guys.

I simply remember many of us on the old board giving some of our Seattle fans grief because they went out and signed a couple of pitchers who had had 5 plus era's and they thought they were going to be really good.

Well, I think Seattle won their division that year.

I am also a bit perturbed because around here, no guy the Reds get seems to be good enough. If they aren't Johnson or Clemens they have too high of a WHIP or they walk too many guys or they give up too many HR's.

I am not saying this group will lead the league in ERA, or innings pitched per start or anything else. I am just saying that in today's game, a 4.5 ERA or even higher, with a potent offense behind it CAN be competitive.....and since I am sssssooooooo tired of sitting here every February already knowing the Reds are gonna stink, I am going to use a 60 plus mill payroll as an excuse to delude myself into thinking they might just be good....maybe even really good.

If I am nuts, it will be proven soon enough.

red-in-la
02-11-2005, 06:15 PM
my summation of the Milton signing

.....

The only thing that bothers about the Milton deal is the out years in 06-07. If this doesn't work and attendance drops they could up trading away their young stars(Dunn adn Kearns I believe) because they don't want to pay them. That's what scares me about the Milton contract. I hope he pitches well in 05 and the Reds are competetive and that they can still afford to pay their young guys. I think 5 years from now baseball will be talking about how good Dunn and Kearns have been, I hope they are still Reds so we can get maximum enjoyment from that.

If you want to blame signing Milton for losing Dunn and Kearns, maybe you should look a little closer.....how about 12.5 mill a year to JR? How about 27 million down the drain to Larkin.

Milton may just be the next bad deal to mess this franchise up, and I guess you can blame the FO for that, but JR was and always will be the death nell for this franchise in the 2000-2009 range.....no body else's contract compares for sheer lunacy.

Mutaman
02-11-2005, 06:36 PM
The Banana Man finally opened up the wallet and showed some signs of life. I will not complain. We're actually going into spring training with a potential pitching staff and a little hope. I have no complaints about getting Milton. The Reds probably overspent for him and he may turn out to be a bust. But I needed to see that our owner was finally going to make an effort.

Mutaman
02-11-2005, 06:42 PM
Milton may just be the next bad deal to mess this franchise up, and I guess you can blame the FO for that, but JR was and always will be the death nell for this franchise in the 2000-2009 range.....no body else's contract compares for sheer lunacy.

Maybe in hindsight. But I can't criticize the Jr deal. The Reds were getting the best player in the game, a hometown hero, a guy who looked like a lock to pass
Ruth and Aaron , at a discount. That seemed like a pretty good investment to me. It just didn't work out.

red-in-la
02-11-2005, 06:52 PM
Maybe in hindsight. But I can't criticize the Jr deal. The Reds were getting the best player in the game, a hometown hero, a guy who looked like a lock to pass
Ruth and Aaron , at a discount. That seemed like a pretty good investment to me. It just didn't work out.

Well we could start another thread to redebate the JR deal. Even with the current 60 mill payroll no winning team puts the percentage of their payroll the Reds did into ONE player, even if it is Ruth.....unless he is pitching....and maybe not even then.

I like the Milton signing because it meant for the first time since he owned the team, Lindner seems willing to spend ON the team for the sake of the TEAM.

Sure, maybe the long road back does end with Milton, maybe it just begins with him and maybe down the road a few years the Reds will sign a true ace.

Rocket_Fuel
02-11-2005, 07:02 PM
Good thing the Reds signed Ben WEBER and not Webber. Lets wait until Spring Training is over before trashing the new acquisitions. I swear, some Reds fans can't be happy for two seconds.

Rocket_Fuel
02-11-2005, 07:04 PM
Anybody who compares Haynes to Milton clearly doesn't know anythign about baseball. That's just a fact. Milton's knee injury (which has healed) is the reason his ERA was so high. And the guy still nearly won 20 games.

Redmachine2003
02-11-2005, 07:05 PM
No Boss, I was all fired up because the Reds had assembled a rotation full of 200 innings guys.

I simply remember many of us on the old board giving some of our Seattle fans grief because they went out and signed a couple of pitchers who had had 5 plus era's and they thought they were going to be really good.

Well, I think Seattle won their division that year.

I am also a bit perturbed because around here, no guy the Reds get seems to be good enough. If they aren't Johnson or Clemens they have too high of a WHIP or they walk too many guys or they give up too many HR's.

I am not saying this group will lead the league in ERA, or innings pitched per start or anything else. I am just saying that in today's game, a 4.5 ERA or even higher, with a potent offense behind it CAN be competitive.....and since I am sssssooooooo tired of sitting here every February already knowing the Reds are gonna stink, I am going to use a 60 plus mill payroll as an excuse to delude myself into thinking they might just be good....maybe even really good.

If I am nuts, it will be proven soon enough.
If your Nuts than I Nuts too. I believe this team can win and DanO has put it on the Right track too continue to win. I didn't think the Reds would sign Milton because I thought he was the better pitcher and would end up in New York or big Market team. I still feel that Milton will have a better year than Perez and Clement. That is IMO of Milton and I will stick to it. I am hoping for the best from Ortiz but he is more of a wait and see but I think it was a good gamble and the Reds didn't lose much at this current time. All I can Really say is GGGOOOOOO Redssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rocket_Fuel
02-11-2005, 07:06 PM
WHAT???

Browning won 20 games with a 3.55ERA as a rookie in '85 and had an ERA of 3.81 or under in 5 of his first 6 seasons.

I must be reading the wrong resume for Milton.

Obviously you are. Comparing Milton to Browning is perfect. Browning happened to pitch in a pitchers park. Remember, in the World Series Oakland took him yard several times and hit him hard. He probably would have had a 4+ ERA if he pitched in Oakland or Atlanta around that time, just like Milton. Great American isn't nearly the bandbox people make it out to be, that's why I expect Milton to finish with a 3+ ERA.