OT: Why it sucks to be a Bengals fan

[_sturt_]

From SI.com:


The Bengals were mentioned as one team to have expressed interest in Mason, but Jacksonville and Baltimore negotiated directly with agent Peter Schaffer and appeared to be offering a great deal more money than the Bengals would.
-- Cincinnati Enquirer

I swear, you can have a highly competent head coach, but if you have a family-empire-obsessed general manager/owner who has delusions of grandeur about being a football mind in his father's tradition ... .500 seems about all you're ever going to be able to feel good about ... I don't know how many times Bengals fans will hit the wall with this before they see it plainly enough and begin to yell loudly and consistently enough.

Mike Brown is clearly the Winnebago hitched to the back of your Plamer/Lewis stock car.

The man needs a "Jerry Jones moment," ie, one where he gives up pretending and lets someone else take the wheel in the way that Jones gave it to Parcells.

[Joseph]

The Bengals don't need Mason. He's good yeah. I'd be excited if he came, but they need P-Dub and Housh to come back as far as recievers go. They need d-line help.

Brown has stepped aside as far as letting others take control. Will just take some time to see the fruits of Marvins labors.

[Danny Serafini]

There's no reason the Bengals should offer Mason a big contract. They have receivers, they have much bigger needs elsewhere. Contacting him with a lower offer just to see if he'd bite doesn't hurt. But it would be stupid to break the bank for him when they have so many other needs.

[_sturt_]

The post isn't so much about Mason, guys.

The post is about -- when is the last time Mike Brown went out and spent Rolls Royce money on Rolls Royce players?

At some point, in this 21st century environment, the owner has to quit stockpiling his family fortune, and get certain help in the FA market.

Lewis has done a wonderful fantabulous job with the resources he has... but if he's actually been given the key to the bank vault, there's no evidence of that.

Until then, the objective observer is left to think that whole idea of Brown giving Lewis latitude is a ruse and a charade... and one that is fairly simple to see through.

It's too bad, too... because with the right person, the Bengals truly could have a SB contending team as early as THIS season. But Brown shows no signs of budging from his egocentricity.

[membengal]

The post isn't so much about Mason, guys.

The post is about -- when is the last time Mike Brown went out and spent Rolls Royce money on Rolls Royce players?

At some point, in this 21st century environment, the owner has to quit stockpiling his family fortune, and get certain help in the FA market.

Lewis has done a wonderful fantabulous job with the resources he has... but if he's actually been given the key to the bank vault, there's no evidence of that.

Until then, the objective observer is left to think that whole idea of Brown giving Lewis latitude is a ruse and a charade... and one that is fairly simple to see through.

It's too bad, too... because with the right person, the Bengals truly could have a SB contending team as early as THIS season. But Brown shows no signs of budging from his egocentricity.

Chad Johnson two years ago and when the re-negotiated his contract ahead of when they needed to.

Carson Palmer when they drafted him #1 and got him into camp quickly.

[Joseph]

The Bengals will be against the cap this season if they bring back Rudi, TJ, sign draft picks, and a free agent d-lineman, so there's no money to sign Mason.

I think we see a different Mike Brown. The Mike Brown of the last couple years is vastly different than the one who ran the franchise into the ground thru the 90's Money isn't being spent foolishly on the Michael Westbrooks, or marginal CBs, or Reinard Wilsons.

I don't at all think its a ruse or charade. Lewis has great lattitude within the franchise now. No, he doesn't have a blank check, but he does tell the Browns and Blackburns where to send the checks.

[Aceking]

People often get on the Bengals for not dropping big dollar contracts on free agents. What you forget is that Carson Palmer is something like the 8th highest paid player in the league. On top of that, Rudi is now being paid in the top 5 RB's, and Warrick was a #4 overall pick as well.

The Bengals have big dollar contracts, they are just from people they've drafted.

[_sturt_]

The Bengals have big dollar contracts, they are just from people they've drafted.

Yes. And I contend that building EXCLUSIVELY through the draft will get you close... but NEVER... over the top.

And if an owner/GM never even begins to approach the salary cap year-after-year-after-year, even now in the Lewis era... that says more about his interest in managing the family business than it does about his interest in managing a SB quality football team.

Meaningless to you I'm sure and no flame intended, but to my mind, some of you are just seeing what you WANT to see.


The Bengals will be against the cap this season if they bring back Rudi, TJ, sign draft picks, and a free agent d-lineman

Okay... so there's every indication that they're NOT going to resign TJ if you've been following the grapevine nationally... no indication they're going after one of the top-dog D-linemen...

"Against the cap???"

Don't count on it. History says differently. Same old Mike.

[bomarl1969]

This is stupid. The Bengals doesn't need Mason with CJ, Warrick, TJ, and Kelly. They need to spend money on a d-line, the linebackers could also use another stud to go with Hardy and Simmons.

[Joseph]

Yes. And I contend that building EXCLUSIVELY through the draft will get you close... but NEVER... over the top.

And if an owner/GM never even begins to approach the salary cap year-after-year-after-year, even now in the Lewis era... that says more about his interest in managing the family business than it does about his interest in managing a SB quality football team.

Meaningless to you I'm sure and no flame intended, but to my mind, some of you are just seeing what you WANT to see.



Okay... so there's every indication that they're NOT going to resign TJ if you've been following the grapevine nationally... no indication they're going after one of the top-dog D-linemen...

"Against the cap???"

Don't count on it. History says differently. Same old Mike.


I think its YOU who are seeing what you want to see. From ALL indications, TJ WILL be re-signed. He even hired a new agent because the other one didn't want him to re-sign with the Bengals. Following the 'grapevine' gives no indication of TJ leaving Cincinnati, aside from specualtion from a reporter or two here and there who are just throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks.

I can't comment on what free-agents from outside the organization they are targeting because I don't work in their front office, but I don't doubt they'll at least entertain whatever top tier free agents are on the market that suit needs for the team.

As for recent history and the cap.....the Bengals finished 2004 OVER the salary cap by 1 million dollars.

[Hap]

Why It Sucks To Be A Bengals Fan

1987, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002...

Jack Thompson, David Klingler, and Akili Smith.

The Seattle hotel gang rape in 1990.

James Brooks jersey number is not retired, nor will he be in the Hall Of Fame. From 85 thru 90, except for his injury-plagued 87, there was not a better ofensive player in the league.

James Brooks was named by the victim as one of the rapists. The hint of impropriety is just as damaging as impropriety.

[bomarl1969]

Why It Sucks To Be A Bengals Fan

1987, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002...

Jack Thompson, David Klingler, and Akili Smith.


Amen to that...add Ki-Jana Carter to that mess, plus Gus Ferrotte and Neil O'Donnell. whoooo geezsh.

[_sturt_]

As for recent history and the cap.....the Bengals finished 2004 OVER the salary cap by 1 million dollars.

Source?

First of all, no one is allowed to finsih "over" the cap... that's why they call it a "hard" salary cap.

Second of all, everything I've read says the Bengals -- ONCE AGAIN -- finished in the top half for salary cap room with 5.6 mil; though I admit, being #11 is, at least, an improvement from 2001, when they were #1.

So much for seeing what you want to see.... if you don't do your homework, your credibility is shot, so better to not "bring it" unless you can back it up.

[kxblue]

you can finish over the cap, you just get penalized for it

I can't understand why you would want Mason. That money could be much better used on the defense. The Bengals are very close to the cap, esp. if they get a D-lineman.

The Bengals don't need offense, they need defense. This post is nit-picky and stupid. :dflynn:

[_sturt_]

you can finish over the cap, you just get penalized for it

That's just not the case. You're thinking basketball. The NFL has very strict rules on their salary cap, which is exactly why everyone has to cut all these guys THIS very week.



I can't understand why you would want Mason. That money could be much better used on the defense. The Bengals are very close to the cap, esp. if they get a D-lineman.

The Bengals don't need offense, they need defense. This post is nit-picky and stupid. :dflynn:

Indeed, it is if you're wanting to talk about Mason.

I'm not.

I'm wanting to illuminate how this is just another example in a long line of examples where Mike Brown isn't willing to spend money... on Mason, or anyone else.

It's the same thing every year, but living in Lexington, I know Bengals fans only raise a stink about it when they finally give up on a coach and are made to think about the utter fuitlity of being a Bengals fan.

THAT'S what's stupid.

But Mike Brown sure does appreciate your optimism and oversight.

[CougarQuest]

I've been wondering since the end of the Bengals season, can Warrick be released? I'm very worried that his knee injury might be career ending.

[WVRed]

That's just not the case. You're thinking basketball. The NFL has very strict rules on their salary cap, which is exactly why everyone has to cut all these guys THIS very week.

I remember the Steelers a couple of years ago being fined and losing a draft pick because they were over the cap.

[Joseph]

Source?

First of all, no one is allowed to finsih "over" the cap... that's why they call it a "hard" salary cap.

Second of all, everything I've read says the Bengals -- ONCE AGAIN -- finished in the top half for salary cap room with 5.6 mil; though I admit, being #11 is, at least, an improvement from 2001, when they were #1.

So much for seeing what you want to see.... if you don't do your homework, your credibility is shot, so better to not "bring it" unless you can back it up.

NFL teams have until March 2nd to be at or below the previous years salary cap, thats why so many players are cut in late February, ie they have until 3-2-2005 to be at or under the 2004 cap. If they are not, they can be penalized in a variety of ways such as forfieture of draft picks etc.


More than half of the league -- 17 teams -- spent more than the $80.6 million salary cap. The NFL has a soft cap that allows clubs to structure players' contracts so that they can spend more than the cap and still remain in compliance.

The method utilized by the players' union for computing teams' payrolls allows for comparisons of the clubs' spending habits, but does not necessarily reflect how much cash a team actually spent on players in a year.

My source for the Bengals cap status in 04.....Bengals Cap (http://www.bengals.com/press/news.asp?iCurPage=0&news_id=2680)

So much for you doing your homework, you obviously didn't. And don't tell me not to 'bring it', it's just juvenile and pathetic. Talk about lack of credibility..... :rolleyes:

In short, are the Bengals the Patriots? No. But are they the Bungles anymore either? No. If you can't see that, then nothing anyone here can say will change your mind. But you know what? You coming here whining is not going to change anyone's mind who does see it either.

[zombie-a-go-go]

sturt, Joseph, anyone else,

Further snide/rude/denigrating comments directed at other posters in this thread, or others, will result in disciplinary action.

So cut it out.

[GoReds]

It's interesting that New England has come up as an example, but New England's example hasn't.

For instance - where is their big signing?

Ty Law was recently cut because he is due to get a sizeable upgrade in his contract. Neither he nor Ty Poole (their two starting corners at the beginning of the year) played in the Super Bowl, yet the Patriots won. Quick (without scanning the internet) name the two corners that started for the Patriots in the Super Bowl - I know I can't.

I think what NE is demonstrating is that a good system infused with coachable talent can go a long way. They have some good players on the defensive side of the ball, but none of them could be classified as HOF caliber.

When was the last time NE signed a high-dollar free agent?

Don't say Corey Dillon - he was acquired via trade.

Tom Brady was a draft pick. So were Ty Law, Troy Brown, Teddy Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Dan Klecko, Richard Seymour, Adam Vinatieri, Willie McGinest, etc.

NE does use free agency, but typically only to fill the gaps with role players. The draft is now and has been the key to their success over the last ten years. The Bengals could get there too, but they need to draft better, retain continuity and fill in the blanks with modest free agents.

[Joseph]

Excellent point GoReds.

[CougarQuest]

The latest news ....

Bengals tender offers to four

By Mark Curnutte
Enquirer staff writer

The Bengals today tendered contract offers to four of their own players who could become restricted free agents on Wednesday.

The club made tender offers to cornerbacks Rashad Bauman and Reggie Myles, running back Kenny Watson and linebacker Marcus Wilkins.

In making the offers, the Bengals secure the right to retain the players by matching any offer sheet they would sign from another team. The players could also remain with the Bengals by signing the tender offer for 2005 or by negotiating a longer-term contract.

The four players were tendered at amounts that qualify as their “draft-status level” under the league’s collective bargaining agreement. For example, with Bauman, who entered the NFL as a third-round draft choice, the Bengals would receive a third-round draft choice were they to decline to match an offer sheet Bauman might sign with another team.

The other three players entered the NFL as undrafted players, so the Bengals would not receive compensation.

[_sturt_]

Here's my homework assignment for your review, noting the use of the word "hard" in the first paragraph...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1743706

...and pay special attention to 1.13 in this paper, Teacher...

http://www.askthecommish.com/salarycap/faq.asp

...and finally...


The NFL mandates a League Cap, an upper limit below which every Team's Cap # must be from March 1 until the end of the football season. If, for instance, the League Cap for 2002 is $71.1 million, then a Team's Cap # from March 1, 2002 until the end of the 2002 football season must always be below $71.1 million. After the 2002 football season, the NFL would set a League Cap for 2003 but it would not take effect until March 1, 2003. So between the end of the 2002 football season and March 1, 2003, a Team's Cap # would not have to be below the League Cap. If a team's cap # is higher than the league cap during this time, the team will release players or restructure player contracts prior to March 1 so they can fit under the the League Cap by March 1. (from http://ttb.20m.com/)

The come-upance is that the Bengals would like for you to imagine that their cap number between the Super Bowl and March 1 is actually important... it's obviously not.

What's actually important is where you stand at the beginning of a given season -- who are you paying and how much have you shelled out over the off-season for the coming season... which is why it is looked in July, and why Clayton at ESPN highlighted it in August:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=1510617

Why the change from the team that spent the least in 2001 to the team that spent the 11th least in 2004? Perhaps the stadium lawsuit has made Mike Brown a bit uneasy... that would be a good thing.

But again, until he bites a bullet and takes on a salary of someone who, walking in the door, fills an important void and makes the team appreciably better by anyone's measurement... yes, not unlike how Bob Kraft opened his arms to Dillon, in terms of both the trade cost AND the contract cost... Mike Brown has been and will continue to be the single common denominator curse of this franchise. It's been the case since his dad passed, and even the records since Marvin Lewis came to town demonstrate that.

It is a shame... Lewis has done amazing things in two years just to get to 8-8. And I'm persuaded the man very well could be a SB coach someday. But it won't be while he's working for PB-Wanna-Be MikeyMiser. He has done absolutely nothing and continues to do nothing, even in this Lewis era, to suggest that an acquisition at the level of Dillon would ever be made.

I just hope when Lewis moves on that this is the very last time we see Bengals fans look the other way from Brown's disproportionate interest in taking financial care of the next 10 generations of Browns. Better yet, Bengals season ticket holders could change the whole picture by waiting out this season's July 15 analysis of salary cap room before sending any money to the Brown Family Conglomerate.

[_sturt_]

When was the last time NE signed a high-dollar free agent?

Don't say Corey Dillon - he was acquired via trade.

Yeah, don't say Corey Dillon, who cost the Pats BOTH money AND draft picks.

GoReds, regardless, based on history, you're never going to see MikeyMiser make that kind of acquisition. He may part with draft picks, but the deal breaker is the money.

It's all about his family's money, but too many Bengals fans only seem to notice in-between coaching hires.

[MWM]

Derrick Mason is not even a Lexus, let alone a Rolls-Royce. I'd say he's an Accord or a Camry. One thing Marvin has shown tremendous competence at is evaluating talent and I'm guessing that Marvin doesn't see Mason as a luxury model, but a reliable 4 door sedan that gets decent gas mileage.

[_sturt_]

The Bengals have drawn a line in the sand, and two unrestricted free agents -- wide receiver T.J. Houshmandzadeh and center Rich Braham -- are standing on the other side. If the players don't agree to terms on new contracts by midnight tonight, both hit the open market on Wednesday when the 2005 NFL free agency period begins.
-- Dayton Daily News

Hey, as long as MikeyMiser has bigger acquistion plans for the money he'll save... right??? :MandJ:

[GoReds]

Yeah, don't say Corey Dillon, who cost the Pats BOTH money AND draft picks.

GoReds, regardless, based on history, you're never going to see MikeyMiser make that kind of acquisition. He may part with draft picks, but the deal breaker is the money.

It's all about his family's money, but too many Bengals fans only seem to notice in-between coaching hires.

Wow.

Based on the clear facts and evidence that you have supplied, how can I possibly think that there is a vendetta involved.

Gee, who woulda thunk it. Logic debunked by emotion.

Enjoy yourself!

[traderumor]

The Bengals have drawn a line in the sand, and two unrestricted free agents -- wide receiver T.J. Houshmandzadeh and center Rich Braham -- are standing on the other side. If the players don't agree to terms on new contracts by midnight tonight, both hit the open market on Wednesday when the 2005 NFL free agency period begins.-- Dayton Daily News

Hey, as long as MikeyMiser has bigger acquistion plans for the money he'll save... right??? :MandJ:
The funny thing is, the last public bashing of Mike Brown I heard was by Bob Trumpy who had to end up admitting on Lance McAlister's show that he was wrong about Marvin's knowledge and level of involvement (very high) with the salary cap. So.....I think you're barking up the wrong tree, sturt. Marvin and Katie are managing the cap, not Mr. Brown. I believe Mike would have to play games like the Washington owner does to circumvent the cap so he can pay big money for underperforming free agents. From what I've read, conspiracy theories aside, the Bengals are up against the cap unless they can get Rudi signed long-term or traded and get a few other guys (Wille Anderson and Levi Jones, IIRC) to sign extensions.

The news on Braham is that he is re-signing as soon as his leg clears medically. No smoking gun there.

Housh is simply trying to cash in on a big year, but bengals.com is reporting he is close to re-signing as well. If he doesn't, OK, this seems to be an area the Bengals have never had a trouble finding talented players in. In fact, I can't remember a time when the Bengals had a poor receiving corps, and I've been following since the 70s. Maybe 1993, when Jeff Query led the team in receiving?

[Joseph]

Look _sturt_ anyone, myself included, can go out there and find numbers that suggest the Bengals are against the cap, way under the cap, and anywhere in between. Its more than clear you want to be negative about the Bengals, and in particular Mike Brown.

You'll get no argument from me that the Bengals were atrocious in the 90's, but at present I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of the state of the organization. They are a growing building franchise. As long as they compete to put the best product possible on the field, I don't care how rich Mike Brown, Katie and Troy Blackburn, Marvin Lewis, or any other front office person gets.

EOD for me.

[Reds Fanatic]

The latest news is Mason has signed a five year contract with the Ravens

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8245522

The good news for Bengals fans is according to the Bengals website Houshmandzadeh appears to be on the verge of signing a new 4 year contract with the Bengals.

http://www.bengals.com/

[traderumor]

The latest news is Mason has signed a five year contract with the Ravens

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nfl/story/8245522

I hate Mason, he is like a waterbug, and seems to always have a big day against the Bengals. Now, twice a year of him knocking off big gains across the middle. Maybe Boller will miss him when he's wide open (entirely possible).

[_sturt_]

Wow.

Based on the clear facts and evidence that you have supplied, how can I possibly think that there is a vendetta involved.

Gee, who woulda thunk it. Logic debunked by emotion.

Enjoy yourself!

GoReds, I understand and agree that the Pats mainly built through the draft.

I disagree that, at least for SB39, Corey Dillon wasn't a big part of that success.

And, I disagree that Dillon somehow doesn't count... if anything he "counts" more because the team had to give up BOTH big bucks AND other assets.

Bottom line... I completely disagree that Bob Kraft and Mike Brown are as willing to spend money as one another, as one would be led to think you and the others who have posted to this thread believe.

Have no clue where you get the vendetta business... actually, COMPLETELY to the contrary, Mike Brown has never done anything to me personally, nor has his incompetence had any impact whatsoever on my life. Can't give you a good reason for starting this thread, except that I live close enough to Cincinnati and listen to enough pro-Bengals sports talk that it drives me nuts to watch you guys chase your tail every 3-4 years... and how quickly you forget and forgive this pompous numbskull owner and his family on the basis of Marvin Lewis' competence.

Finally, not sure where you're getting the "emotion" part in that zinger... unless "citing history and asserting that there's nothing tangible that's demonstrating Brown drifting from that history"... unless that logic is called "emotion" in your world.

[Reds Fanatic]

Its official now the Bengals have signed Houshmandzadeh to a 4 year contract. So they have both him and Chad Johnson signed through 2008.

http://www.bengals.com/press/news.asp?iCurPage=0&news_id=2782

[traderumor]

Can't give you a good reason for starting this thread, except that I live close enough to Cincinnati and listen to enough pro-Bengals sports talk that it drives me nuts to watch you guys chase your tail every 3-4 years... and how quickly you forget and forgive this pompous numbskull owner and his family on the basis of Marvin Lewis' competence.Thanks for watching us poor saps' backs :rolleyes:

[_sturt_]

Thanks for watching us poor saps' backs :rolleyes:

I get you, trade, but I mean no disrespect... I wish better for my Cincinnati friends, sure... but I think, when it really comes down to it, my ire is driven more by the same repugnance I hold for Donald Sterling of the LA Clippers and Bill Bidwell of the AZ Cardinals...

But w/ Brown it's a lot worse. Bidwell's dad was not football royalty.

Mikey mocks his own father, arrogantly succling his own vanity, playing along all these years as if he is just as great a football talent evaluator as his dad. And the man just isn't real enough with himself to admit that this is a franchise crippled by his refusal to give someone else the GM reins, and just generally, crippled by his and his family's greed -- greed for BOTH money AND control.

How can you not respect and hallow Paul Brown if you're a football fan, regardless of what team you cheer for?

But EXACTLY to my point... how can you be Paul Brown's son and care more about your own reputation as an NFL general manager and your own family's fortune than NFL championships???

It's just repulsive to anyone who isn't emotionally-tied to the Bengals; it's been repulsive, too, to most Bengals fans as I sit here and remember all the talk after LeBeau's exit... but unfortunately enough, most of that repulsion proved only sporadic and apparently based on fickle emotion.

Guess I'm just looking for that Bengals fan, or two, or three, who have a backbone, and who refuse to be put on by this "Mike Brown, General Manager" futility and silliness any more.

I'll part with this, and leave you all with the last word if you choose... putting aside the fact that the Bengals had to have a late season spark to even attain their 2003 record... sure, Coach Lewis has things on a positive track for the present... but I ask you this, which goes to the core of all I'm putting forward to you -- how much better could the Bengals be if Lewis had the luxury of a real football mind sitting in the GM chair, truly a sounding board for his own superb judgment, and someone who's own track record showed some success that deserves Lewis' respect???

Just my opinion, which doesn't count for much here obviously, but I dare say you would have had a playoff team last season -- or at the least, all of your preseason optimism about finally breaking into the winning season column would have come about. But your head coach hasn't the benefit of a viable personnel person b/c Mike Brown -- still -- considers himself equal to Paul Brown.

So if you love Mike Brown... go ahead... all I can say is, you deserve each other.

[traderumor]

sturt,

You're living in the past. Mike Brown changed, he did exactly what you said he should do. He is not the GM, Marvin, Katie and Troy have their fingerprints on everything. And I have to say right now, I think the gene skipped a generation and went to the granddaughter, she seems to have a nose for running this franchise, and seems to be the one who has her dad's ear that keeps him at a distance, where he needs to be. Katie is the one who went to bat to bring in Marvin, her dad wanted Coughlin. That was one of the biggest turning points in franchise history, and they continue to head the right direction.

Everything you said in your most recent post may have been true at one time, but the recent actions of the franchise indicate that Mike Brown finally realized he is a better administrator than talent evaluator and hired someone to do a job he had failed at.

[_sturt_]

sturt,

You're living in the past. Mike Brown changed, he did exactly what you said he should do. He is not the GM, Marvin, Katie and Troy have their fingerprints on everything. And I have to say right now, I think the gene skipped a generation and went to the granddaughter, she seems to have a nose for running this franchise, and seems to be the one who has her dad's ear that keeps him at a distance, where he needs to be. Katie is the one who went to bat to bring in Marvin, her dad wanted Coughlin. That was one of the biggest turning points in franchise history, and they continue to head the right direction.

Everything you said in your most recent post may have been true at one time, but the recent actions of the franchise indicate that Mike Brown finally realized he is a better administrator than talent evaluator and hired someone to do a job he had failed at.

I guess your evidence of that are the Bengals PR pieces.

If that's enough for you, I've got nothing for you. Who can argue with Jack Brennan and what he's told to say?

I'll stick with the facts as laid out at http://www.bengals.com/team/frontoffice.asp ...and the results of free agency where, whoever-is-in-charge continues to demonstrate that he himself is on a leash, whether you want to believe that that is self-imposed or imposed from above.

Honestly, trade, forgoodnessakes... name me one other team in the HISTORY OF THE N-F-bygawd-L where the President, the Business Manager, and the TWO player personnel people all are RELATED... ???

If Mike Brown has turned this page as you allege, where has he added ANYONE from outside his football and/or physical family other than Lewis??? It's a frickin puppet show of football inbreeding.

You hint that you think Brown has given Lewis the general manager duties. Okay. Riddle me this. If that were really and truly so, why on earth wouldn't Marvin have the title? Chew on that awhile. Why would Brown keep that designation from Lewis? And before you utter your first excuse for that, pray tell, who represents the Bengals when the league holds general manager meetings?

And if Katie is handling the business side so aptly, what the hell does the President of the company do with his time now?

Brown isn't stupid -- he knows to keep a low profile given the backlash post-LeBeau. Should we be surprised that everything coming out of Bengals HQ ignores the President's role in anything? I mean, who can be mad at Katie? Who can be mad at Marvin? Gotta give Brennan credit... the propaganda has apparently been masterful at taking the target off of Mike Brown's head.

Finally, let me pass along this training camp Marvin Lewis Q&A and its link for your indigestion (http://www.fantasyfootballcafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10097)


GH: Has Mike given you everything you wanted?

ML: I don't know what he's given me. We work together.

GH: Has he given you free reign?

ML: I don't know if it's free reign or not. Mike has been very supportive of the things we feel it takes to win. He's been 100 percent supportive of everything. And that's all I can ask for. We're not always going to agree, and we've been able to sit down and discuss why we don't agree and come to a solution and that's our way.

It's not Mike's way and it's not necessarily my way. It's been our way. That's important for the coaches to know that and understand that. We're not going to be a split camp. There's no way in the NFL where you can function for very long like that.

GH: Have you been split on a lot of things because it looks to be smooth?

ML: I'm sure we have split on things.

GH: More than you thought you would?

ML: No.

GH: Less?

ML: I don't think about it. Obviously, I was excited about coming here and working with Mike after we had our two face-to-face meetings. It's been great. When I don't get to talk to him, like being away or on vacation, and we don't get to sit down, I miss talking to him every day because he has a lot of insights. He's very thorough. He's a deep thinker and he always listens. He's a good resource for me.

GH: Has it been smoother than you thought it would be?

ML: It's been very smooth. The one thing is, I enjoy it. I enjoy our management, and the people I work for and with.

GH: Because you have such a close working relationship with Mike, you almost seem like a general manager.

ML: Not me. I'm just a football coach that wants to win. I don't need to be any more than that.

...wow ...Arthur Murray has nothing on ol' Marvin... the interviewer gave him every chance to make it clear that Marvin gets what Marvin wants, and all Marvin could do was backpedal and sidestep... well, at least until that last line where he makes it crystal clear... "I"m just a football coach... I don't need to be any more than that."

So much for the uninvolved reincarnate Mike Brown.

And, so much for my "living in the past." Looks more like history repeating itself to me. I doubt you'd get any different answers from what Dick LeBeau or any of his predecessors would have said about Brown.

So much for "Mike Brown changed, (and) he did exactly what you said he should do"...

So much for "He is not the GM, (and) Marvin, Katie and Troy have their fingerprints on everything"...

And, so much for "Mike Brown finally realized he is a better administrator than talent evaluator and hired someone to do a job he had failed at."

No less than Marvin himself disputes with your conclusions.

You can even argue how much he's taking Marvin's recommendations, and for the sake of argument let's even say he is giving Marvin 90% of everything he asks for...

The point remains... the one thing that you cannot deny is that Mike Brown has, in no way, removed himself from being General Manager and having the final say on who is acquired and how much will be spent.

The day Brown hires a no-doubt-about-it general manager is the day you will be able to credibly testify to his conversion, and potentially, his redemption...

Until then, all he's done, for a change, is hire a good coach, and one from outside "the family."

*Whew*

Said horse beaten. Beaten profusely.

So now... as the grand kahuna of comedy might say, "this time I'm bein honest with you when I say" ... the last word is yours... no... really.

[wheels]

Wow....You have really got a serious axe to grind.

[GoReds]

Does it not bother you at least a little bit that you seem to be the only one tilting at the windmill here, Mr. Quixote? That not one poster has come to your aid and at least added a kudo to what you have said?

Chew on that for a second.

Marvin Lewis is telling you the same thing that any competent coach worth their salt will tell you - that a coach and general manager have to work together to put a good team on the field. It's when the two parties don't work in unison that you get nasty results such as the Bengals from 1990-2002, the 49ers of the past few years, etc. If you really want to rail against an owner who obviously consults little with his staff, I invite you to visit the Redskins board. I'm sure there will be several who agree with you there.

In any event, I'm through "debating" what is obviously a very emotional topic for you. Rail away if you must. Enjoy the crickets.

[traderumor]

Have no clue where you get the vendetta business... actually, COMPLETELY to the contrary, Mike Brown has never done anything to me personally, nor has his incompetence had any impact whatsoever on my life.

Anyone reading this thread would arrive at that conclusion. If you really believe that, you might want to rethink it.


The point remains... the one thing that you cannot deny is that Mike Brown has, in no way, removed himself from being General Manager and having the final say on who is acquired and how much will be spent.

I can, I did, and I will. There is more evidence that Marvin, Katie and Troy are actually handling the day to day operations, while your take on things requires a conspiratorial publicist. Brown, as the owner, seems to rigthly still make the call on major purchases. I guess it is important to you that someone have the title of GM, although that is not something that is a given in the NFL. What makes the difference if someone has the title as long as they are fairly compensated for wearing many hats, which Marvin surely is? Also, I think Marvin is a good business manager when he sidesteps questions about how the ship is run that are none of inquirer's business. His respect is to his boss, not inquiring minds who want to know.

Now, I am done with taking part in the expression of your vendetta.

[traderumor]

Well, well, well...

Rudi and TJ both are retained, a free agent defensive lineman has been brought in...

Where'd you go, _sturt_?

[Cedric]

Free Agency is a joke for the most part. I understood why Marvin used it his first year, we had such crap talent it was a way to infuse some talent and buy him a gap for his own personell through the draft. Good teams RARELY use free agency and build within the draft, exactly what Marvin is doing. Chris Perry aside we haven't had two drafts like this back to back in twenty years. Palmer, Steinbach, Washington, Ratliff, Williams, Geathers, Johnson, Miller. That's alot of new talent that is gonna be damn good for years.