SI's All 25 and Under Team--No Dunn

[RedsBaron]

I just received my copy of the 8/22/05 issue of Sports Illustrated, which has an article by Tom Verducci, picking SI's All 25 and Under Team.
The outfield has Miguel Cabrera, Grady Sizemore and Carl Crawford. There is no mention of Adam Dunn, who is only 25 years old.
Verducci picked Albert Pujols, age 25, at firstbase-no argument there, but Verducci did go on to say that 25 year old Mark Teixeira deserved honorable mention since he already had 95 HRs and 290 RBI in his career, citing the Rangers hitting coach who said that Teixeira would be a consistent 35-40 HR guy with 100 RBIs. Doesn't that describe Dunn as well? Dunn has more than 95 HRs and 290 RBI at the same age.

[smith288]

Quite a glaring omission.

[Chip R]

He's probably one of those people who thinks Dunn strikes out too much and doesn't hit many sacrifice flies. :rolleyes:

[KearnsyEars]

Politics boys. Politics.

Love watching Sizemore and Pujols.

Can't argue much with Cabrera as the LF. I'd have to at least mention our boy dunn though, come on.

[KronoRed]

All bat avg bunk.

[OldXOhio]

Sounds like a Verducci piece.

[SteelSD]

My e-mailed response:

Mr. Verducci,

I'm just wondering (re: the 8/22/05 SI "All 25 and under Team), did you somehow forget that there's a kid named Adam Dunn playing Major League Baseball right now? Carl Crawford- speedy flash but an Out Machine of the highest order- over a top 10 MLB Run-creation offensive monster like Dunn? Not even a mention of the guy, yet you give props to Mark Teixeira at 1B, whose career numbers are dwarfed by Dunn's? Ok.

Let me help you out here...Adam Dunn plays Left Field for the Cincinnati Reds- a team that plays in the National League. He's 25 years old. You can find him by using the player search function on the cnnsi.com baseball stat page. He'll rank among the top 10 Run producers in the game. He's the kid who, in all of baseball since 1900, posted a Secondary Average surpassed by only Ted Williams through age 24. Now go find his numbers and take a GOOD look. Thanks.

[Roy Tucker]

Wasn't Verducci the same guy who overlooked Felipe Lopez for the All-Star team?

Sometimes I think certain writers bang these articles out on the can between innings.

[Blimpie]

Dear Verducci:

What Steel said.

Kisses,

Blimpie


P.S. Ever heard of David Wright?

[pedro]

David Wright wasn't mentioned either?

what a moron.

[Elam]

David Wright wasn't mentioned either?

what a moron.
He was:

Catcher: Joe Mauer
First Base: Albert Pujols
Second Base: Rickie Weeks
Shortstop: Bobby Crosby
Third Base: David Wright
Utility Infielder: Jose Reyes
Outfield: Miguel Cabrera
Outfield: Grady Sizemore
Outfield: Carl Crawdford

Starting Pitchers:
Rich Harden
Jake Peavey
Mark Prior
Dontrelle Willis
Carlos Zambrano

Closer: Francisco Rodriguez

[LvJ]

Haha. Reyes and Crawdford over Dunn and Lopez. Nice comedy.

[OnBaseMachine]

Joe Reyes and Carl Crawford-Captains of the Overrated team. Replace Reyes and Crawford with Dunn and Lopez and its a decent list.

Jose Reyes

2005-.271/.296/.357
Career-.277/.301/.386

Carl Crawford

2005-.287/.315/.455
Career-.284/.315/.414

[OldXOhio]

Wasn't Verducci the same guy who overlooked Felipe Lopez for the All-Star team?

Sometimes I think certain writers bang these articles out on the can between innings.

Left him off this team too. If Reyes is your SS then FeLo should've at least gotten a mention.

[Blimpie]

He was:

Catcher: Joe Mauer
First Base: Albert Pujols
Second Base: Rickie Weeks
Shortstop: Bobby Crosby
Third Base: David Wright
Utility Infielder: Jose Reyes
Outfield: Miguel Cabrera
Outfield: Grady Sizemore
Outfield: Carl Crawdford

Starting Pitchers:
Rich Harden
Jake Peavey
Mark Prior
Dontrelle Willis
Carlos Zambrano

Closer: Francisco RodriguezThat was my bad Pedro...I was basing my post solely on what RedsBaron had mentioned at the beginning.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

Maybe the twinkies should consider Mauer to another position.

He misses a ton of games.

[SteelSD]

He was:

Catcher: Joe Mauer
First Base: Albert Pujols
Second Base: Rickie Weeks
Shortstop: Bobby Crosby
Third Base: David Wright
Utility Infielder: Jose Reyes
Outfield: Miguel Cabrera
Outfield: Grady Sizemore
Outfield: Carl Crawdford

Good lord. If Sizemore weren't on the team, I'd be certain that Verducci doesn't recognize the state of Ohio as having a baseball team period.

There's this kid who spells his name funny manning Shortstop for some Cleveland team. Obviously, Verducci can't figure out who Jhonny Peralta is. That guy's got better numbers than Crosby too. Yeesh. Weeks is fine on that list because the list of productive 2B for that age qualifier is as thin as it gets at any position. Near ditto with CF (I hadn't realized how OLD a position that was until I researched it).

If Dunn were never born, Crawford still isn't even the most productive 25-and-under Outfielder on his own TEAM (see: Jonny Gomes).

[RedsBaron]

Verducci did mention Felipe Lopez, along with Russ Adams and Khalil Greene as shortstops age 25 or less who "may have locks on their jobs for years to come." However, Verducci then added that "none of them possess the complete package" that Bobby Crosby does.

[RedsBaron]

Carl Crawford and Adam Dunn compared (Crawford's stats first listed):
OBP: .315 to.392
SLG: .455 to .584
OPS: .771 to .976
Runs: 73 to 85
RBI: 65 to 83
HR: 12 to 34
A clean sweep for Dunn EXCEPT for this stat--batting average, .287 to .257. We all know how supremely important batting average is! :rolleyes:

[Johnny Footstool]

Ah, but don't forget how Carl Crawford uses his speed as a weapon to create runs. Which is why he scores more runs than Adam Dunn.

Wait a minute...

[Falls City Beer]

Verducci's gray matter is really brown matter.

[RedsBaron]

Ah, but don't forget how Carl Crawford uses his speed as a weapon to create runs. Which is why he scores more runs than Adam Dunn.

Wait a minute...
Ah, but you forget that much of this season the Reds cleverly put Dunn in a place in the batting order than would maximize his chances of scoring runs....wait a minute...for much of this season Dunn batted sixth and seventh in the order........... ;)

[westofyou]

Ah, but don't forget how Carl Crawford uses his speed as a weapon to create runs. Which is why he scores more runs than Adam Dunn.

Wait a minute...

From part of an article on BP today by Nate Silver

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4344

Reader Mike Mitchell writes:

Watching Jose Reyes in Fox's Mets/Cubs Flat Earth Society Game of the Week, I couldn't help but wonder if modern sabermetrics does a fair job accounting for low-OBP, high-speed players like Reyes, who score in a higher percentage of their times on base than slower players....

Is it possible the next five years could bring a new statistic, call it Speed-adjusted OB% (fittingly, SOB), that would take Jose Reyes's .304 OBP, factor in his ability to turn his baserunning speed/saavy (other than mere base stealing success) into additional runs for the Mets offense, and come up with a speed-adjusted .329 SOB, meaning he contributes the same run-scoring ability to the Mets offense as an average baserunner with a .329 OBP?

A lot of times you'll hear the case made that OBP undervalues a player like Jose Reyes or Carl Crawford because it doesn't account for their baserunning ability. This is a perfectly reasonable argument. Getting on base, as Mike intimates, is not the goal. Rather, getting on base is a means to an end, that end being scoring runs. But running the bases well is also a means to that end. If Bill Mueller gets on base five percent more often than Scott Podsednik, but Podsednik scores 10 percent more often than Mueller those times that he does reach base, which player is the more valuable run-generator?

Actually, this question isn't as straightforward as it might seem. Much of the value in reaching base is really in avoiding outs. Stealing second base once you've reached first, or scoring from second on a double when a slower runner might have held up: these are valuable skills. But they aren't as important as reaching base in the first place, which not only puts a runner on base for the team to work with, but also preserves one of its irreplaceable 27 outs.

[SteelSD]

Someone needs to write Mr. Mitchell to let him know that someone else has already come up with a statistic using the "Speed-Adjusted" prefix (SAOBP, SASLG, SAOPS) and that the latter someone is the guy typing this post here at redszone.com.

MY STAT! :angry:

[Johnny Footstool]

Ah, but you forget that much of this season the Reds cleverly put Dunn in a place in the batting order than would maximize his chances of scoring runs....wait a minute...for much of this season Dunn batted sixth and seventh in the order...........

Ah, and don't forget that Dunn's position in the batting order gives him more Plate Appearances over the course of the season than a guy like Carl Crawford.

Wait a minute... ;)



If Bill Mueller gets on base five percent more often than Scott Podsednik, but Podsednik scores 10 percent more often than Mueller those times that he does reach base, which player is the more valuable run-generator?

The ability to score runs is mostly a function of the hitters that follow a player in the lineup. Scott Podsednik's speed won't help him much if the guys hitting behind him are all out machines.

Tying OPB and speed together is like tying an apple and an orange together and calling it a grapefruit. If you really want to measure how a guy's speed translates to run-scoring ability, create a whole new stat called something like "Speed-Based Run Scoring Ability" (SBRSA is quite a catchy acronym). Then you can place it beside OBP instead of trying to meld the two together.

[smith288]

My e-mailed response:

Mr. Verducci,

I'm just wondering (re: the 8/22/05 SI "All 25 and under Team), did you somehow forget that there's a kid named Adam Dunn playing Major League Baseball right now? Carl Crawford- speedy flash but an Out Machine of the highest order- over a top 10 MLB Run-creation offensive monster like Dunn? Not even a mention of the guy, yet you give props to Mark Teixeira at 1B, whose career numbers are dwarfed by Dunn's? Ok.

Let me help you out here...Adam Dunn plays Left Field for the Cincinnati Reds- a team that plays in the National League. He's 25 years old. You can find him by using the player search function on the cnnsi.com baseball stat page. He'll rank among the top 10 Run producers in the game. He's the kid who, in all of baseball since 1900, posted a Secondary Average surpassed by only Ted Williams through age 24. Now go find his numbers and take a GOOD look. Thanks. SOmetimes, I hate reading your posts SteelSD...it only makes me reflect how you put me to shame when putting thought into a post... :)

[RedsBaron]

SOmetimes, I hate reading your posts SteelSD...it only makes me reflect how you put me to shame when putting thought into a post... :)
You get SteelSD's stuff, and WOY's stuff, and M2's stuff for free here, and it is superior to the stuff Verducci gets paid to write, and it is infinitely superior to the nonsense you hear on ESPN.

[smith288]

You get SteelSD's stuff, and WOY's stuff, and M2's stuff for free here, and it is superior to the stuff Verducci gets paid to write, and it is infinitely superior to the nonsense you hear on ESPN. AND you get my comedy....

Hello?

Is this thing on?

...
...
:runawaycr

[SteelSD]

SOmetimes, I hate reading your posts SteelSD...it only makes me reflect how you put me to shame when putting thought into a post... :)

Oh, pishaw!

The irony of this thread is that I just finished up research on my own "All 25-and-under" MLB positional All Star team. I might just write it up and post it sometime soon.

If nothing else, it'll make more sense than Verducci's drivel.

[TeamBoone]

Did you really send it Steel?

[SteelSD]

Did you really send it Steel?

Yeah. Absolutely. Crammed it right down his online "mailbag" I did.

[KronoRed]

Yeah. Absolutely. Crammed it right down his online "mailbag" I did.

Fight the power Steel :thumbup:

[TeamBoone]

Yeah. Absolutely. Crammed it right down his online "mailbag" I did.

Do you think he'll write back? If he's smart, he'll be too embarassed.

[Caveat Emperor]

Do you think he'll write back? If he's smart, he'll be too embarassed.

He'll probably choose to reply to an e-mail that wasn't as good or productive, but arrived earlier due to it's speed than Steel's did.

[Falls City Beer]

He'll probably choose to reply to an e-mail that wasn't as good or productive, but arrived earlier due to it's speed than Steel's did.

I was thinking he'd respond with smoke signals or by Pony Express.

[SteelSD]

Do you think he'll write back? If he's smart, he'll be too embarassed.

I challenged him on his inability to figure out who Felipe Lopez was as well when he left him off his potential All-Star team prior to the AS break. Enough people dropped him a line about it that he actually responded to it (stupidly, of course).

I have no problem challenging stuff that just isn't right. Heck, I ended up in an email battle with Lonnie Wheeler over his misrepresentation of an opposing manager's philosophy. In the end, he acquiesced, but not before he tried to tell me that Jim Tracy's words didn't mean what Jim Tracy meant.

Heck. I don't care who those personalities are. I'll take 'em on regardless if they're being stupid. The funny thing is that most of those "baseball" writers don't get their jobs because they really truly know how that whole "baseball" thing works. They get their jobs because they trained to be a jounalist. Nothing wrong (at all) with the primary concepts behind that but- at some point- guys like Verducci must understand that they're expected to be fact merchants as well as prose developers. Too little of the former and way too much of the latter tends to go on.

[RedsBaron]

In reading the whole article I noticed that Verducci did mention a few more shortstops. In addition to Crosby, Adams, Greene and Lopez, whom I noted in a prior post. He also mentioned Jose Reyes (whom he picked as a utility infielder) and Jhonny Peralta.
Verducci also had an interesting quote from Cleveland GM Mark Shapiro: "It's a down time for position players. At the trading deadline it seemed everybody was looking for a hitter, and there was a reason they couldn't find one: They're not there. It's a cyclical thing---and now it's a down cycle for position players."

[Chip R]

Do you think he'll write back? If he's smart, he'll be too embarassed.
I truly think most of these guys are too arrogant to be embarrassed. He probably saw "Adam Dunn" or "OPS" and deleted the e-mail. It's like that one time (was it Raisor or Steel?) someone sent an e-mail to Marty and Marty read only part of it on the air.

[BrooklynRedz]

A friend of mine is in a fantasy league with Verducci and he's finished in last place for the past several seasons. Go figure.

[Elam]

Here's what Verducci has written about his picks:


Catcher: Joe Mauer, 22, Twins (2005 statistics through Sunday: .294 batting average, 14 home runs, 45 RBIs)
Born the day after Cabrera, Mauer has the smooth swing to join the elite hitters, though he has yet to show big time power. I try not to [project] any big numbers for him" says Minnesota manager Rom Garden hire. "Let him be, and he'll be just fine. That's too good of a swing to start messing with it."

First Base: Pujols (.336. 33, 93)
The Texas Rangers' 25 year old Mark Teixeira (.277, 31, 94), who has 95 homers in fewer than three full seasons, deserves honorable mention. As his hitting coach, Rudy Jaramillo, says, "Tex is going to be pretty much a consistent 35-to-40 home run guy with 100 RBIs. He's already proven that at this young age."

Second Base: Rickie Weeks, 22, Milwaukee Brewers (.265, 9, 26)
With no young star established at the position, Weeks and his potent bat (he has put up his numbers in only 219 at-bats since being called up from the minors on June 11) rate the edge over Jorge Cantu, 23, of the Tamps Bay Devil Rays and Robinson Cano, 22, of the New York Yankees.

Shortstop: Bobby Crosby, 25, A's (.284, 5, 29)
The position is loaded with growth stocks. Jose Reyes, 22, of the New York Mets is a dynamic offensive player because of his speed. Cleveland's quiet Jhonny Peralta, 23, had the highest OPS-.890-among shortstops this side of Miguel Tejada. Russ Adams, 24, of Tornoto; Khalil Greene, 25, of San Diego; and Felipe Lopez, 25, of the Cincinnati Reds may have locks on their jobs for years to come. But none of them possess the complete package that the 6'3", 195-pound Crosby does: size athleticism, middle-of-the-order power (22 homers as the AL Rookie of the Year in 2004), often spectacular defense and leadership skills. To wit Oakland is 48-18 when Crosby-who missed the first two months of the season with a stress fracture to his upper rib cage-is in the lineup.

Third Base: David Wright, 22, Mets (.305, 17, 73)
"You'd probably say Hank Blalock is the better player right now," says one American League scout of the Rangers'24 year old third baseman, "but ask most people which one they would take, and they'd take Wright. This may be the best Blalock gets to be, which is very good. But Wright looks like something special." Wright has power to all fields, a discerning batting eye, a fierce work ethic and the kind of athleticism that will turn him into a Gold Glove winner. "It's like having a shortstop play third base," Towers says. "He made a play against us, a bare handed grab, that may have been the greatest play I've ever seen." The Padres' G.M. was referring to a Brian Giles blooper to the leftfield at Petco Park on Aug. 9, on which Wright, in full sprint, made a diving, over the shoulder catch.

Utility Infielder: Reyes (.274, 72 runs, 41 stolen bases)
An adept second baseman who hit .255 last season, he boasts one of the game's strongest arms and has excelled since returning to his natural position of shortstop.

Outfield: Cabrera (.341, 26, 83)
Signed as a shortstop, promoted to the bigs as a third baseman, switched between rightfield and leftfield, he has never looked out of place.

Outfield: Grady Sizemore, 23, Indians (.291, 14, 62)
One AL scout likens him to "Jim Edmonds, once he adds the power." Three years ago the Indians heisted the entergetic, five tool Sizemore from the Montreal Expos in exchange for righthander Bartolo Colon. Says Shapiro, "He only knows one speed - all out, from the first pitch the last out. He sets the tone for our team in every facet: defensivly, on the bases [15 steals at weeks end] and at the plate."

Outfield: Carl Crawford, 24, Devil Rays (.289, 12, 64)
One of the fastest players in baseball, he swiped 59 bases last year, legged out 19 triples and scored 104 runs. (He had 34, 12 and 72, respectively, this year.) With those numbers, no wonder Tampa Bay wisely bought his three remaining arbitration years with a four year, $15.25 million contract in April.

Starting Pitchers:
Rich Harden, 23, A's (9-5, 2.78 ERA)
The righthander has been known to throw his fastball 99 mph-in the late innings of games; last season he was clocked higher than 96 mph more often than any pitcher in the majors. This season he has held the opposition to onr hit twice, to two hits and without an earned run five times.

Jake Peavy, 24, Padres (10-5, 3.14)
The 2004 major league ERA leader (2.27) is a rare young power pitcher with mound intellect. Says Towers of his All-Star righthander, "His intelligence, makeup and confidence are off the charts. Even at 19, topping out at 90 in the minors he was a pitcher, not just a thrower. Now he has extra velocity, and he'll get it up there at 94."

Mark Prior, 24, Cubs (8-4, 3.70)
An archetypical ace, the 6' 5", 230-pound righty throws hard and has a wicked breaking ball and exceptional command. His 38-20 career record would be better if not for an assortment of injuries that have sent him to the disabled list five times in three seasons.

Dontrelle Willis, 23, Marlins (15-8, 2.79)
The southpaw's corkscrew, slingshot delivery makes him a nightmare for hitters and a joy for fans. Among 25 and under pitchers, only he and Sabathia have been named to two All-Star teams. "When he's on and gets in a groove with his arm slot, he's as unhittable as it gets," one AL scout says.

Carlos Zambrano, 24, Cubs (9-5, 3.17)
To less fanfare, Zambrano, a 6' 5", 255-pound workhorse, has won more games (43 to 38) and pitched more innings (695 to 566) than teammate Prior while being just as tough to hit (opponents' career average against Zambrano and Prior: .231 and .230 respectively).

Closer: Francisco Rodriguez, 23, Angels (2-2, 2.41, 27 saves in 31 chances)
Groomed as closers since college, righthanders Chad Cordero, 23, of the Washington Nationals and Huston Street, 22, of Oakland have put up impressive numbers, but K-Rod, who was mostly a setup man prior to this year, is responsible for some of the most uncomfortable at bats in baseball. Opponents have hit .169 against the righty in is four-year career. His long-term durability, however, could be jeopardized by the violent arm action of his forceful, across-the-body delivery.

[creek14]

So Verducci is BadFundamentals?

[BRM]

So Verducci is BadFundamentals?

:laugh:

[SteelSD]

So Verducci is BadFundamentals?

Speaking of...


I got to see the great Adam Dunn live a couple times this week and yes I can confirm he may have had a hot month but this is still the same player.

Here, another way to drive home this point that eludes the masses on this board and in cincinnati in general: I bet if you ask a good number of the teams in baseball would they rather have Ryan Freel (for example) or Adam Dunn they would say Ryan Freel.

The fact is Dunn is just Russell Branyan who is given a starting spot in the lineup (with more walks) and a season full of at bats. Most teams just plain wouldn't make a spot in lineup for a player of that type and certainly wouldn't want the contract that will go with it. How many All Star squads has Dunn made? Fact is he's not a top player at his position. Ryan Freel on the other hand is the premier utility guy in baseball who is also capable of starting when healthy.

Ignorance leads to mlb.com, mlb.com leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to...well, generally, just more ignorance... (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-reds&msg=22074.61)

[RedsBaron]

Speaking of...



Ignorance leads to mlb.com, mlb.com leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to...well, generally, just more ignorance... (http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-reds&msg=22074.61)
Amazing post.

[westofyou]

Amazing post.

Here's another gem from a guy who has hate in his heart.


Actually my wish, goal, intent would be to see Dunn playing for another team. Reds won’t be able to afford his salary. And his strikeouts, bad fundamentals and cavalier attitude are a bad influence on this team becoming a winner. Let Mr. Stud Rock Star his way to Houston, NY, CA or somewhere else. ESPN highlights WINNING

[KronoRed]

You've gotta be kidding...Branyan?

[creek14]

You've gotta be kidding...Branyan?
Exactly. Everyone knows Branyan has a better butt. :mooner:

[TeamBoone]

Actually my wish, goal, intent would be to see Dunn playing for another team. Reds won’t be able to afford his salary. And his strikeouts, bad fundamentals and cavalier attitude are a bad influence on this team becoming a winner. Let Mr. Stud Rock Star his way to Houston, NY, CA or somewhere else. ESPN highlights WINNING

Bad fundamentals? No, he's not a gold glove outfielder... yet! But he's certainly improving steadily. The catch he made against the screen the other night was nothing but stellar.

Mr. Stud Rock Star? Where the **** did that come from? Besides, we all know he prefers country music.

[RFS62]

I got to see the great Adam Dunn live a couple times this week and yes I can confirm he may have had a hot month but this is still the same player.

Here, another way to drive home this point that eludes the masses on this board and in cincinnati in general: I bet if you ask a good number of the teams in baseball would they rather have Ryan Freel (for example) or Adam Dunn they would say Ryan Freel.

The fact is Dunn is just Russell Branyan who is given a starting spot in the lineup (with more walks) and a season full of at bats. Most teams just plain wouldn't make a spot in lineup for a player of that type and certainly wouldn't want the contract that will go with it. How many All Star squads has Dunn made? Fact is he's not a top player at his position. Ryan Freel on the other hand is the premier utility guy in baseball who is also capable of starting when healthy.


Sweet sassy molassy.

That's some Hall of Fame ignorance.

First ballot.

Unanimous.

Doesn't even have to wait 5 years.

[wheels]

Bad fundamentals? No, he's not a gold glove outfielder... yet! But he's certainly improving steadily. The catch he made against the screen the other night was nothing but stellar.

Mr. Stud Rock Star? Where the **** did that come from? Besides, we all know he prefers country music.

I'm tellin' ya, Boonie....The guy's got some serious personal issues with Dunn.

This goes way beyond baseball. It's got to. There's no other logical explaination.

I don't think he'll come around here anymore, though.

[OnBaseMachine]

I'm tellin' ya, Boonie....The guy's got some serious personal issues with Dunn.

This goes way beyond baseball. It's got to. There's no other logical explaination.

I don't think he'll come around here anymore, though.

Dunn stole his girlfriend.

[RFS62]

Dunn stole his girlfriend.

wedding photos (http://www.redszone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2036)

[OnBaseMachine]

:laugh: :eek:

[wheels]

BF and the Mrs.

Those were happier times.

She did warn him when they met that she digs the "long ball".

[TeamBoone]

Sweet sassy molassy.

That's some Hall of Fame ignorance.

First ballot.

Unanimous.

Doesn't even have to wait 5 years.

No kidding. It would have to be some really dumb GM if he had his choice of Dunn and Freel... and picked the latter. Nothing against Ryan, but they are not even in the same league!

BTW, I laughed out loud at the wedding photo!

[Johnny Footstool]

Come on, folks, let's not be catty. That's funny stuff, but BF isn't here to defend himself.

[RedsBaron]

Come on, folks, let's not be catty. That's funny stuff, but BF isn't here to defend himself.
He could retain Daniel Webster, Clarence Darrow, Johnnie Cochran and F. Lee Bailey to defend himself, but he'd still lose any defense of the above post.

[Cedric]

It's possible he had a brain fart and didn't check out his info enough. Dunn has been in the league for awhile, maybe he forgot he was 25. It has to be something like that.