8/24 Game Thread - Reds vs. Nationals

[Reds Fanatic]

Lineup is out early tonight.


Starting Lineup
Season

Name AVG HR RBI SB
1. F Lopez, SS .286 19 63 12
2. R Aurilia, 2B .279 13 52 0
3. K Griffey Jr., CF .294 29 85 0
4. A Dunn, LF .254 34 83 4
5. S Casey, 1B .319 8 50 2
6. A Kearns, RF .241 12 47 0
7. J Valentin, C .280 10 35 0
8. E Encarnacion, 3B .255 5 15 1
9. R Ortiz, P .103 0 0 0

Starting Lineup
Season

Name AVG HR RBI SB
1. R Church, LF .295 7 36 3
2. J Vidro, 2B .272 7 30 0
3. N Johnson, 1B .299 12 57 3
4. J Guillen, RF .299 22 66 1
5. P Wilson, CF .274 6 20 1
6. B Schneider, C .288 9 38 1
7. V Castilla, 3B .248 10 55 4
8. J Carroll, SS .240 0 16 2
9. J Patterson, P .048 0 0 0

[KronoRed]

Free Rey!

[Little Alex]

Aurilla really must be loving all this playing time.

[knuckler]

Looking at the HR totals there, it isn't inconceivable that Casey could hit two more dingers and Encarnacion 5 more before the season is up. That would make 10 Reds with at least 10 home runs (LaRue and Pena are already there) for the first time since 1999.

That would be cool.

[New Fever]

Randa should count he did hit 13 as a Red

[KronoRed]

Other interesting things

Austin Kearns is 4 RBI away from passing Casey

[Buckeye33]

Other interesting things

Austin Kearns is 4 RBI away from passing Casey

To make things even more pathetic, Kearns is only 4 away while batting a putrid .241.

Man, 8 million/yr too. Yikes.

[Puffy]

Aurilla has more RBI than Casey.

[Raisor]

Dunn's power has gone away here in August. His OBP is over .400 for the month, but his SLG is under .450 for the month.

.262/.407/.431

At least BF should be happy..

[pedro]

Dunn's power has gone away here in August. His OBP is over .400 for the month, but his SLG is under .450 for the month.

.262/.407/.431

At least BF should be happy..

and yet those aren't shabby numbers.

[pedro]

Dunn's going yard today BTW.

[RedsMan3203]

You might hate him, you might like him....

But boys, Aurilla has done what he came here to do...... Puts the bat on the ball, and puts it in play..... I don't like he is getting more PT over our younger IF, but atleast he is having a productive year.

[knuckler]

Dunn's power has gone away here in August. His OBP is over .400 for the month, but his SLG is under .450 for the month.

.262/.407/.431
..

And that, my friends, is yet another reason why it is important for batters to take their walks -- average slumps, power slumps, but OBP just keeps marching right along, grinding down pitchers and turning into runs scored.

[Johnny Vander m]

You might hate him, you might like him....

But boys, Aurilla has done what he came here to do...... Puts the bat on the ball, and puts it in play..... I don't like he is getting more PT over our younger IF, but atleast he is having a productive year.

He SHOULD be playing tonight and tomorrow to showcase him to Jimbo. I just don't understand why Jim B isn't realy after him.

[Tornon]

And we are underway

[Tornon]

Lopez leads off with a bunt single

[Tornon]

Lopez thrown out stealing second

[capndees]

And that, my friends, is yet another reason why it is important for batters to take their walks -- average slumps, power slumps, but OBP just keeps marching right along, grinding down pitchers and turning into runs scored.

Dunn's HR crown is slipping away, tho - Jones is up 6 on him.

[Tornon]

Aurilia Ks looking, 2 out

[Tornon]

Griffey pops to short, no score middle of 1

[Tornon]

Church lines a single to right

[Tornon]

Vidro Ks swinging and looks silly doing it, 1 out

[Tornon]

Johnson doubles off the RF wall, 2nd & 3rd with 1 out

[Tornon]

Guillen hit by the pitch

[KronoRed]

Dunn will get hot here soon

[flyer85]

What did I do that makes me have to suffer through Ramon Ortiz?

[Tornon]

Wilson grounds softly to Aurilia so cant turn the DP, run scores. 1-0 Nationals

[dsmith421]

Is Ramon Ortiz the worst starting pitcher in baseball now that Milton's had a couple mediocre outings?

[Tornon]

Schneider pops to Encarnacion in foul territory. 1-0 Nationals after 1

[Tornon]

Is Ramon Ortiz the worst starting pitcher in baseball now that Milton's had a couple mediocre outings?

I doubt it since while Milton was having mediocre outings, Ortiz was busy having 3 very good outings

[CincyRedsFan30]

Did George Grande actually say something smart?

He said that Dunn shouldn't change a thing when it comes to his approach to hitting. Just leave him alone. :eek:

[Tornon]

Dunn Ks looking, 1 out

[RedsMan3203]

Dunn K's Lookin.

[WVRedsFan]

Dunn Ks

[WVRedsFan]

Did anyone but me think it was foolish to be stealing in the first inning on the pitcher with the third best ERA in the league?

Just askin'

[Tony Cloninger]

SO...i take it Dunn K'd then? :)

[Tornon]

Casey Ks swinging, 2 out

[RedsMan3203]

Casey K's swinging.

[WVRedsFan]

Casey K's - it's going to be a long night, amigos. A long night.

[Tornon]

Kearns grounds to short, 1-0 Nationals middle of 2

[RedsMan3203]

Kearns grounds out to SS. 1-2-3

[OnBaseMachine]

Dunn--one homerun last 46 atbats.

[Tornon]

Castilla Ks swinging, 1 out

[Tornon]

Carroll walks

[Patrick Bateman]

Is Ramon Ortiz the worst starting pitcher in baseball now that Milton's had a couple mediocre outings?

In July-August, Ortiz is 5-2 with an ERA around 4. Take out his debacle against Atlanta, and he's 5-1 with an ERA around 3. That Atlanta debacle is the only start in his last 9 where he hasn't gone at least 6 innings.

We are 13-9 in Ortiz starts this year, thanks to some timely hitting.

Lately, Ortiz is keeping us in games and we are winning the majority of those games.

[Tornon]

Patterson with a successful sac bunt, 2 out

[Tornon]

Church hit by an 0-2 pitch

[Tornon]

Vidro flies to Dunn, 1-0 Nationals after 2

[OnBaseMachine]

http://washington.nationals.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_279568.jpg John Patterson

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/9901/29/shes.all.that/link.matthew.lillard.jpg Matt Lillard aka Stuart Macher from Scream.

Separted at birth? ;)

[Tornon]

Meanwhile, "The Heckler" from a few years ago is back at the Tampa Bay - Cleveland game

[cumberlandreds]

It's good to hear Nuxhall once again.

[Tornon]

Valentin pops to third in foul territory, 1 out

[Tornon]

Encarnacion Ks looking, 2 out

[Tornon]

Ortiz Ks looking, 1-0 Nationals middle of 3

[cumberlandreds]

Patterson sounds tough tonight. Ortiz has got to holdem close to have a chance to win this one.

[Tornon]

Johnson flies one to deep center, but Griffey gets it. 1 out

[Tornon]

Guillen Ks swinging, 2 out

[Tornon]

Wilson doubles into left center

[Tornon]

Schneider grounds to Aurilia, 1-0 Nationals after 3

[Big Klu]

Looks like Preston Wilson has the George Foster sideburns working tonight.

[Tornon]

Lopez singles to left

[Tornon]

FeLo seems to have regained his aggressiveness, going after the 1st pitch

[Tornon]

Aurilia doubles down the left field line, Lopez was running on the play & is able to score!! Tie game

[Tornon]

Griffey just missed one & pops up to the catcher in foul territory, 1 out

[cumberlandreds]

Aurilia just keeps on hitting. Nobody likes him as he keeps on producing. Hopefully Bowden's taking notes.

[Tornon]

Dunn walks

[Big Klu]

Quick question: Do the Nationals recognize the retired Expos uniform numbers, the retired Senators numbers, both, or neither?

[DoogMinAmo]

Dunn walks

As should anyone who is any sort of RBI threat when batting in front of Casey.

[Tornon]

Casey grounds into a 4-6-3 double play. 1-1 Game middle of 4

[DoogMinAmo]

Quick question: Do the Nationals recognize the retired Expos uniform numbers, the retired Senators numbers, both, or neither?

I would go with neither.

[cumberlandreds]

Casey back to his specialty,A Casey.

[WVRedsFan]

Roller to the right side. Casey

[Aronchis]

Casey had to do the dirty deed, just couldn't resist.

[Big Klu]

Casey DP! :angry: :bang: :rant: :(

[oneupper]

To his credit, it was quite a while between Casey 24 and Casey 25.

[cumberlandreds]

I would go with neither.

I think neither is correct. They have what looks like a big garbage bag in the outfield with names of famous DC athletes,owners and other administrators names on it.

[Tornon]

Castilla flies to Griffey, 1 out

[Tornon]

Carroll flies to Dunn, 2 out

[Tornon]

Patterson doubles down the left field line

[Tornon]

Church walks

[Tornon]

Vidro lines a single to right, Patterson is unable to score

[Tornon]

Johnson grounds to Casey, 1-1 after 4

[Aronchis]

Ramon is horrible tonight, but he is getting the Nats offense, which is saving him.

[Tornon]

Kearns singles to left

[Tornon]

Valentin pops to short, 1 out

[Tornon]

Encarnacion flies to right, 2 out

[DoogMinAmo]

Does it seem like Patterson lives and dies on the outside half of the plate too much to anyone else?

[Tornon]

Ortiz grounds to short, 1-1 middle of 5

[Tornon]

Guillen homers to left, 2-1 Nationals

[Tornon]

Wilson Ks swinging on 3 pitches, 1 out

[cumberlandreds]

Only Guillen's third homer at RFK. Two of them against the Reds.

[Tornon]

Schneider bounces back to Ortiz, 2 out

[Tornon]

Castilla flies to Griffey, 2-1 Nationals after 5

[Tornon]

Lopez singles to first

[cumberlandreds]

According to Marty,Patterson was slow to cover first or Lopez would have been out.

[GullyFoyle]

Nice to see Lopez is still hitting, 3 for 3 :thumbup:

[KronoRed]

Wish we could go back to seeing NL west teams ;)

[WVRedsFan]

Why???

Do what you do best. Stealing ain't it.

[Matt700wlw]

That was close. Lopez may have been in there...

[Tornon]

Lopez caught stealing, then Aurilia Ks looking, 2 out

[GullyFoyle]

According to Marty,Patterson was slow to cover first or Lopez would have been out.

Its good to be lucky too!

edit: err... not so much

[Tornon]

Griffey flies to right, Guillen trips & misses it, Griffey ends up at 3rd

[westofyou]

That was some purty stuff

[Tornon]

Dunn flies to left, 2-1 Nationals middle of 6

[Aronchis]

Sending Felipe was stupid after the first failure. Now the Reds pay the price.

[cumberlandreds]

Was Lopez out at 2nd? Marty and Joe both said he should have been safe.

[Cedric]

Chris and George said he looked out, I thought he looked safe.

[Patrick Bateman]

Sending Felipe was stupid after the first failure. Now the Reds pay the price.

Lopez looked safe there.

I'm not sure that you shut down the running again just becasue you get thrown out.

[Tornon]

Carroll flies to Griffey, 1 out

[dsmith421]

Opposite-view TV replay showed he was out, in my opinion.

Reds just ran themselves out of that inning...and Dunner looks lost at the plate right now.

In happier news, the no-offense Blue Jays put up eight runs on Mussina, and have added a ninth as I type this.

[Tornon]

Patterson flies to Kearns, 2 out

[Tornon]

Church grounds to Aurilia, 2-1 Nationals after 6

[Tornon]

Casey singles up the middle

[Tornon]

Kearns hit by the pitch

[GullyFoyle]

Hopefully EdE will be able to help us out here in a moment...

[Tornon]

Valentin singles up the middle, Casey held at 3rd. Bases loaded nobody out

[WVRedsFan]

"They're going to hold up Casey, and that was a good decision." - Joe Nuxhall.

[Tornon]

Encarnacion grounds to first, they get the out at home. Bases loaded 1 out, Cruz in to pinch hit for Ortiz

[Cedric]

Cruz is due big time if I remember right.

[WVRedsFan]

You really have to score with the bases loaded and no outs. Don't you?

[reds44]

Yes you do.

[Cedric]

That was terrible call.

[Tornon]

Cruz Ks swinging, 2 out

[reds44]

You have to be kidding.

[Cedric]

What does Jacob Cruz add to this roster? He can't hit anymore, he can't field, he can't run. Cut him.

[reds44]

Please Felipe!

[Kc61]

Hard to score when ump makes calls like strike 2 on Cruz. Didn't seem even close.

[redsrule2500]

Wow that was pathetic.

We can't have 0 outs bases loaded and get out with 0 runs. It's just not right.

[oneupper]

Umps really want the Nats to get this one.

[Aronchis]

I would have gone with Pena, Cruz has been awfull lately. Narron is really pushing some ugly managing tonight. Reds waste more chances.

[DoogMinAmo]

I would have pinch run for Casey. :D

[reds44]

That was a borderline call.

[redsrule2500]

And yeah these umps are messed up. I haven't said that all year, but I'm saying it now

[Tornon]

Lopez bounces back to the pitcher, 2-1 Nationals middle of 7

[reds44]

That's soo Reds.

[redsrule2500]

I would have pinch run for Casey. :D

That wouldn't have done much, they still would have held whoever it was.

[GullyFoyle]

Can Lopez go 4-4?

edit: slow net tonight :(

[redsrule2500]

Can Lopez go 4-4?

Nope.

[cumberlandreds]

That was probably the ballgame. If you don't score with bases loaded and no outs it's just terrible. Looks like the rubber game tomorrow.

[oneupper]

Can Lopez go 4-4?

Not anymore.

[DoogMinAmo]

That wouldn't have done much, they still would have held whoever it was.

I would test Wilson's arm with Ray Ray, but I was referring to the GO by EdE.

[CTA513]

The homeplate Ump must have been paid before the game for the crap calls hes making.

[Tornon]

Standridge in to pitch for Cincinnati

[DoogMinAmo]

The homeplate Ump must have been paid before the game for the crap calls hes making.

Tom Hallion

[OnBaseMachine]

No excuse for not scoring there, but the two caught stealings are looking big right now. Can't give away outs like that.

[DoogMinAmo]

1 run in 6 outs. I feel pretty good as long as the bullpen shows up.

[Tornon]

Vidro walks

[DoogMinAmo]

Man was Jason getting squeezed there.

[Caveat Emperor]

Someone who has seen more Nationals games than I help me out with this one: Does John Patterson always miss his spots in-the-zone as badly as he did in a lot of his ABs tonight?

He looked like he had absolutely no control of where his fastball was going at times -- luckily it stayed in for strikes a lot of the time, but I just noticed a lot of times where Schnieder would set up in one place but then have to cut back across his body to catch a pitch on the other side of the plate.

[Tornon]

Johnson flies to Dunn in deep left, 1 out

[Matt700wlw]

In other parks, that's a HR

[Tornon]

Guillen singles to left

[Falls City Beer]

Smoke, meet mirrors.

[Patrick Bateman]

I would have gone with Pena, Cruz has been awfull lately. Narron is really pushing some ugly managing tonight.

Pena against a tough RH like Patterson would be a sure K. Pena is a horrible PH. Cruz is actually pretty good in that role.

[Tornon]

Wilson grounds to Encarnacion, they get the force at 2nd, 2 out

[OnBaseMachine]

Looks like Standridge is returning to mediocrity like many of us on here predicted.

[Tornon]

Schneider singles to left, run scores, 3-1 Nationals

[OnBaseMachine]

Ballgame.

[Tornon]

Castilla doubles to deep right center, 2 runs score, 5-1 Nationals

[oneupper]

Anyone surprised?

[Tornon]

Carroll intentionally walked

[OnBaseMachine]

Allowing five runs to the Washington National offense tells you all you need to know about this pathetic pitching staff.

[GullyFoyle]

Ackkk...

[Kc61]

Just wonder. Has anyone in Reds management been watching the game lately when Standridge pitches? They might notice that he is terrible. Had a few good outings early, but reverted to form. This was a close game before he was, for some reason, used.

[Tornon]

Patterson grounds to Lopez, 5-1 Nationals after 7

[Aronchis]

I don't know what the big deal about Standridge is, he is getting a look see and probably will be dropped considering his past and the data collected. He had a nice run, but he doesn't have the ability to make it last. If you thought that, shame :)

[flyer85]

Looks like Standridge is returning to mediocrity like many of us on here predicted.not returning ... but simply his good fortune has ended and he is getting the results his BPIs said he should. Regression to the mean is hitting home with a vengeance.

Of course I got blasted for pointing that out a couple of weeks ago, however, I am not going to say I told you so :mooner:

[cumberlandreds]

Standridge coming back to the pack. Where's Belisle? It doesn't seem like he has pitched much lately. Easy to second guess but I think I would have rather had him in there than Standridge.

[oneupper]

I don't know what the big deal about Standridge is, he is getting a look see and probably will be dropped considering his past and the data collected. He had a nice run, but he doesn't have the ability to make it last. If you thought that, shame :)

Agreed.. but put him on the "mop up" squad. I prefer to see Coffey or Belisle out there in a 2-1 game.

[Caveat Emperor]

Anyone surprised?

Like clockwork, baby. :rolleyes:

[Tornon]

Aurilia pops to right, 1 out

[Tornon]

Griffey pops to short, 2 out

[reds44]

How did that not leave?????

[Tornon]

Dunn flies to deep right, 5-1 Nationals middle of 8

[oneupper]

How did that not leave?????

Dead air..?? :confused:

[cumberlandreds]

Hopefully the Reds can win tomorrow since I'll be at the game. This one's over. I've got to take my nap so I can get up to be at work at 6am.

[Tornon]

Coffey in to pitch, Church grounds out, 1 out

[Tornon]

Vidro grounds to Aurilia, 2 out

[CTA513]

Its nice to see Narron not say anything about this wonderful homeplate ump.

:rolleyes:

[Tornon]

Johnson grounds to Aurilia, 5-1 Nationals after 8

[Patrick Bateman]

Allowing five runs to the Washington National offense tells you all you need to know about this pathetic pitching staff.

When you consider that the Nationals average about 4 runs a game, I'm guessin' that they sometimes score 5 runs a game.

They scored 2 runs last night. Over 2 games, we have allowed them a below average amount of runs.

[Falls City Beer]

The Reds always know how to take a great big professional-size dump on momentum.

[Tornon]

Casey Ks swinging, 1 out

[Tornon]

Kearns doubles to right center

[Tornon]

Valentin.. GONE!! 5-3 Nationals

[Aronchis]

Just think if Belisle had come in instead of Standridge? How about all those Lopez base stealing blunders. Great night Jerry.

[Tornon]

Chad Cordero in to pitch for Washington

[GullyFoyle]

Boy, does that bases-loaded no outs look even worse now...

[Tornon]

Encarnacion Ks swinging, 2 out

[oneupper]

Boy, does that bases-loaded no outs look even worse now...

Never looks good.

[Tornon]

Pena in to pinch hit for Coffey

[oneupper]

EdE a little anxious in the last couple of ABs..

[Tornon]

Pena Ks looking on 3 pitches, Nationals win 5-3

[Kc61]

Let's keep Standridge out of tomorrow's game please.

[smith288]

I dont think I have ever seen a more pathetic at bat by any player at ANY level including coach pitch.

[GullyFoyle]

This one was more about mistakes than lack of talent... boy that was ugly.

[CTA513]

Let's keep Standridge out of tomorrow's game please.

They should also get a manager that knows when to pull a pitcher out of the game.

[OnBaseMachine]

On the bright side, Kearns another nice game, going 2 for 3 with a double and HBP.

[Patrick Bateman]

The Reds always know how to take a great big professional-size dump on momentum.

Yeah, it seems that no matter how many games they win in a row, they evenyually lose one and lose all momentum.

[OnBaseMachine]

Don't look now but Kearns has his OPS up to .771, with an August line of .254/.338/.522. Now let's hope he can keep it up and carry it into next season.

[BrooklynRedz]

Don't look now but Kearns has his OPS up to .771, with an August line of .271/.358/.543. Now let's hope he can keep it up and carry it into next season.

I look forward to following Austin's performance next year after he's moved this winter.

[OnBaseMachine]

I look forward to following Austin's performance next year after he's moved this winter.

You think Austin will be dealt? I sort of think Wily Mo will be the one with a new home next season.

[BrooklynRedz]

You think Austin will be dealt? I sort of think Wily Mo will be the one with a new home next season.

I can't help but feel that Kearns is being showcased for a winter deal. If the plan is to trade Pena, sitting him is doing nothing for his trade value.

[pedro]

I can't help but feel that Kearns is being showcased for a winter deal. If the plan is to trade Pena, sitting him is doing nothing for his trade value.

I'm not sure playing Pena's going to do much for it either. I think they're playing Kearns because he's better.

Pena's already done his circus tricks. Too much time in the big top and he's bound to have a fall.

[BrooklynRedz]

I'm not sure playing Pena's going to do much for it either. I think they're playing Kearns because he's better.

Pena's already done his circus tricks. Too much time in the big top and he's bound to have a fall.

How are we defining "better" these days? Just curious.

And it's interesting you should say that Pena's done his "circus tricks." What would these circus tricks be? The home runs? The .857 OPS? He's almost two years younger than Kearns and has been outperforming Austin for the past two seasons.

[westofyou]

What would these circus tricks be?

Perhaps the worst outfield play since Kevin Mitchell was a Red.

How come everyone always mentions his power and slugging heavy OPS... but nevr the .308 lifetime OB%?

I love his power, but he has to learn to field or get on base to become a GREAT ballplayer, unless eveyone is happy with the Juan Gonzalez career path.

[BrooklynRedz]

Perhaps the worst outfield play since Kevin Mitchell was a Red.

How come everyone always mentions his power and slugging heavy OPS... but nevr the .308 lifetime OB%?

I love his power, but he has to learn to field or get on base to become a GREAT ballplayer, unless eveyone is happy with the Juan Gonzalez career path.

Pena is no worse a fielder than Dunn. He just happens to be playing out of position. He's a center fielder.

How come everyone wants to hold Wily Mo up to GREAT standards while Kearns is struggling to reach Kevin Seitzer's career path? Pena is 22 and has shown marked improvement at every stage. However, due to some crazy man-love for Kearns, he's stuck riding the pine while a half-wit like Hal McCoy stares at Kearns and sees Stan Musial. But, I guess we'll all be happy moving Pena for a Bret Tomko-ish prospect and going into next season with Dunn in left, a slow sluggish Griffey in center and Kearns in right. Not sure how that outfield is any better than a Dunn-Pena-Griffey OF. Everyone keeps waiting and waiting and waiting for Kearns to show you half of what Wily Mo has put on display for the past two seasons. Is he perfect? No, but he's going to come a far cry closer to perfect or GREAT than will Kearns, high walk rate or no.

[CTA513]

Ryan Church may have suffered a broken toe when he was hit by a pitch in the second inning of last night's 5-3 victory over the Cincinnati Reds. Church remained in the game, but was limping badly. He had the toe drained, but doctors said the toe is likely broken. He is scheduled to have X-rays today. ''It feels terrible,'' he said. So much for Church taking Brad Wilkerson's job from him. Aug. 25 - 10:44 am et - RotoWorld

The Reds are doing everything they can to help the Nationals not make the playoffs. ;)

[westofyou]

Pena is no worse a fielder than Dunn. He just happens to be playing out of position. He's a center fielder.

How come everyone wants to hold Wily Mo up to GREAT standards while Kearns is struggling to reach Kevin Seitzer's career path? Pena is 22 and has shown marked improvement at every stage. However, due to some crazy man-love for Kearns, he's stuck riding the pine while a half-wit like Hal McCoy stares at Kearns and sees Stan Musial. But, I guess we'll all be happy moving Pena for a Bret Tomko-ish prospect and going into next season with Dunn in left, a slow sluggish Griffey in center and Kearns in right. Not sure how that outfield is any better than a Dunn-Pena-Griffey OF. Everyone keeps waiting and waiting and waiting for Kearns to show you half of what Wily Mo has put on display for the past two seasons. Is he perfect? No, but he's going to come a far cry closer to perfect or GREAT than will Kearns, high walk rate or no.

Well Dunn has nothing to do with Pena's fielding so I'm not concerned with that comparison in fact I never said I would be happy the OF scenario you propose. Pena is also 23, not 22.

I like WMP, but he has some warts, if you don't want to see it that way then so be it.

Learn to take a walk or hit .300 is what I say about Pena's game, oh and learn to field. Even if he's a CF someday those big thighs are going to scream "Corner OF position please"

[BrooklynRedz]

Well Dunn has nothing to do with Pena's fielding so I'm not concerned with that comparison in fact I never said I would be happy the OF scenario you propose. Pena is also 23, not 22.

I like WMP, but he has some warts, if you don't want to see it that way then so be it.

Learn to take a walk or hit .300 is what I say about Pena's game, oh and learn to field. Even if he's a CF someday those big thighs are going to scream "Corner OF position please"

Good catch on the age. I do math like Wily Mo does slicing liners in right :evil:

Anyway, I'm not arguing he's got warts. Another poster suggested Kearns was getting the PT because he is better than WMP and I just don't believe that to be true.

[pedro]

Pena is no worse a fielder than Dunn. He just happens to be playing out of position. He's a center fielder.

How come everyone wants to hold Wily Mo up to GREAT standards while Kearns is struggling to reach Kevin Seitzer's career path? Pena is 22 and has shown marked improvement at every stage. However, due to some crazy man-love for Kearns, he's stuck riding the pine while a half-wit like Hal McCoy stares at Kearns and sees Stan Musial. But, I guess we'll all be happy moving Pena for a Bret Tomko-ish prospect and going into next season with Dunn in left, a slow sluggish Griffey in center and Kearns in right. Not sure how that outfield is any better than a Dunn-Pena-Griffey OF. Everyone keeps waiting and waiting and waiting for Kearns to show you half of what Wily Mo has put on display for the past two seasons. Is he perfect? No, but he's going to come a far cry closer to perfect or GREAT than will Kearns, high walk rate or no.

WMP will be 24 at the beginning of next season. He is a lousy fielder. He has trouble getting on base. He does have freakish power, but that is just not enough. I'd rather have Kearns who can play the OF and get on base, albeit without WMP's power. I just think that Kearns is a better fit for the Reds and that WMP shoudl be playing DH in the AL.

As for CF, I don't think there is anyone currently on the Reds roster who should be playing there next year.

[Cedric]

Perhaps the worst outfield play since Kevin Mitchell was a Red.

How come everyone always mentions his power and slugging heavy OPS... but nevr the .308 lifetime OB%?

I love his power, but he has to learn to field or get on base to become a GREAT ballplayer, unless eveyone is happy with the Juan Gonzalez career path.

What's wrong with Juan Gonzalez? He's like a two time mvp.

[westofyou]

What's wrong with Juan Gonzalez? He's like a two time mvp.

MVP's really don't mean much to me. But Juan G is an OB challenged guy whose game was enhanced by his park and his price soon became pretty expensive for what he did (all power, poor fielding)

Since Juan G came into the league this is where he rates in Runs created vs the league.. just make it interesting we'll make 4000 PA's the rule


RUNS CREATED/GAME DIFF PLAYER LEAGUE
1 Barry Bonds 6.73 11.69 4.97
2 Todd Helton 5.04 10.31 5.28
3 Frank Thomas 4.19 9.23 5.03
4 Mark McGwire 3.86 8.81 4.95
5 Manny Ramirez 3.85 9.06 5.21
6 Larry Walker 3.66 8.67 5.01
7 Jim Thome 3.58 8.78 5.20
8 Brian Giles 3.24 8.53 5.29
9 Edgar Martinez 3.20 8.22 5.02
10 Jason Giambi 3.20 8.40 5.21
11 Jeff Bagwell 3.08 8.15 5.07
12 Bobby Abreu 2.97 8.24 5.27
13 Carlos Delgado 2.92 8.13 5.21
14 Alex Rodriguez 2.90 8.10 5.20
15 Gary Sheffield 2.89 7.90 5.01
16 Vladimir Guerrero 2.80 8.05 5.25
17 Chipper Jones 2.77 7.99 5.22
18 Ken Griffey Jr. 2.73 7.72 5.00
19 Mike Piazza 2.49 7.66 5.17
20 Jim Edmonds 2.45 7.72 5.26
21 Will Clark 2.37 7.28 4.91
22 Nomar Garciaparra 2.37 7.55 5.18
23 Albert Belle 2.20 7.27 5.07
24 Rafael Palmeiro 2.17 7.14 4.97
25 Mo Vaughn 2.12 7.27 5.15
26 Tim Salmon 2.05 7.22 5.17
27 Scott Rolen 1.98 7.22 5.23
28 David Justice 1.92 6.89 4.97
29 Fred McGriff 1.92 6.83 4.92
30 Tony Gwynn 1.90 6.75 4.85
31 Rickey Henderson 1.84 6.77 4.93
32 John Olerud 1.80 6.84 5.04
33 Ellis Burks 1.80 6.71 4.91
34 Paul Molitor 1.73 6.58 4.85
35 Bernie Williams 1.73 6.84 5.11
36 Ryan Klesko 1.71 6.92 5.21
37 Moises Alou 1.65 6.76 5.10
38 Rusty Greer 1.65 6.92 5.28
39 Mike Sweeney 1.61 6.82 5.20
40 Juan Gonzalez 1.61 6.65 5.04
41 Mickey Tettleton 1.61 6.38 4.77
42 Kirby Puckett 1.55 6.19 4.64
43 Derek Jeter 1.55 6.76 5.21
44 Sammy Sosa 1.53 6.59 5.06
45 Barry Larkin 1.48 6.45 4.97
46 Magglio Ordonez 1.44 6.61 5.17
47 Mark Grace 1.40 6.35 4.94
48 Jose Canseco 1.40 6.36 4.96
49 Luis Gonzalez 1.39 6.49 5.10
50 Chili Davis 1.36 6.24 4.88


BTW Bill James said Juan G is perhaps the most overrated player in the past 15 years, and I agree with him.

[flyer85]

But Juan G did understand how to extract the cash from teams.

His 2005 season was a thing of beauty.
- day after his contract is picked up in spring training he strains his hammy :rolleyes:
- finally in June he is activated by the tribe. :help:
- First AB in the first inning he pulls up lame running out a groundball :cry:
- back to the DL never to be seen again :mooner:

[Cedric]

I'm not gonna argue against RC, I honestly don't know much about it. I'm asking this not in a condescending way, but how does he have a ops over .900 7 times, and once over 1.000 and not be a good hitter? He also has 5 years of 40 homers, and 3 years of at least 140 rbi's. Does RC trump everything else? Couldn't there be correlating reasons based on their lineup that caused his RC to be lower than what you would expect from a MVP? I just wanna understand how that all intertwines.

And I honestly don't care about Juan Gonzalez, I'm no fan. Just wondering about these stats.

[registerthis]

I dont think I have ever seen a more pathetic at bat by any player at ANY level including coach pitch.You know, I was going to post about that this morning. I was at the game last night, and Wily Mo looked as unprofessional as any hitter I have ever seen in my life. Forget the crowd chanting for Cordero to get the save, if Pena gets on the tying run--and the top of the order--comes up. Instead he looks at a pitch, takes a putrid half-swing at the second, then is practically already on his way to the dugout as the third pitch crossed home plate. It was just pathetic.

I would have rather seen Coffey up there--anyone who gave a crap about the at-bat. Pena clearly wanted nothing to do with it and just wanted to go home. :angry:

[pedro]

Frankly, I'd be happy if WMP had the same career path as Juan. I don't think he will.

[oneupper]

But Juan G did understand how to extract the cash from teams.

His 2005 season was a thing of beauty.
- day after his contract is picked up in spring training he strains his hammy :rolleyes:
- finally in June he is activated by the tribe. :help:
- First AB in the first inning he pulls up lame running out a groundball :cry:
- back to the DL never to be seen again :mooner:

And WE complained about Junior. Shame on us :bang:

[Cedric]

Frankly everybody on the Reds has had an at bat that bad. I don't understand the hatred towards that one at bat. I love Adam Dunn, but he has been called out on pitches right down the middle more than any player on the team, and nobody on here says a word. I understand that Dunn takes WAY too much unwarranted heat here, but if we are gonna whine about every at bat we better not just rip Wily Mo.

[westofyou]

I'm asking this not in a condescending way, but how does he have a ops over .900 7 times, and once over 1.000 and not be a good hitter?

I never said he wasn't a good hitter, I just implied that he's overrated and dependant on his Power and Batting average.

His biggest years were in hitters parks on hitters teams so the counting stats can and are a bit inflated when compared across the league. One thing that pena would have to do to be Juan is hit over ,300. Juan has a lifetime BA of .295 and his best years were when he did have a good batting average (which is enhanced by that hitters park).

But Pena has never hit above .270 at any level and that's troubling when you don't walk.

Juan isn't a bad player, just the type that I would be careful giving lots of cash to, plus I wouldn't want him in a park like Petco.

[Cedric]

Thanks.