Inside the Front Office

[Chip R]

I didn't get to hear much of it on my way home from work but when I got in my car, Tim Naehring was railing about how guys aren't playing the game "The Right Way" when they get up to the majors and he said that the front office is not happy about it. Tim and DanO feel that the pitching in the low minors is starting to bear fruit. A caller asked them if they were going to stick with the "take 1 strike" and the tandem rotation in the low minors. DanO said the "take 1 strike" thing is misunderstood and it is not always like that. They just want the young hitters to develop patience at the plate and that's one of the ways they do that. They like the tandem system because they believe it helps prevent injuries and if a pitcher can't make it through his required innings without going over the pitch count then that pitcher needs to work on his command. They are high on Miguel Perez and said he picked about 15 guys off 1st this year. They aren't going to rush him and feel his bat will come around. They are also high on Denorfia and like his plate approach and believe he'll get a 2nd and 3rd look at the major league level.

[KronoRed]

Lemme guess...playing the game "the right way" involves bunts and steals?

:runaway:

[Newport Red]

Lemme guess...playing the game "the right way" involves bunts and steals?

:runaway:

and SAC flies.

[WMR]

Does "pitching to contact" and "taking 1st pitches" fall under the "Playing The Game The Right Way" compendium?

[fs43340]

Does "pitching to contact" and "taking 1st pitches" fall under the "Playing The Game The Right Way" compendium? no!

[dsmith421]

Apparently "playing the game the right way" Reds-style doesn't include "winning".

[Aronchis]

Does he, or does he not return to the Cincinnati Reds next year? One thing that would be interesting, who would take the fall for the FA blunders? Dean Taylor, Brad Kullman?

The Dan O'brien story.

[REDREAD]

Well considering that Naehring has been running the minors for several years now, isn't the fact that the youngsters aren't playing "the right way" an indictment of Naehring?

Every year, we get to hear Naehring's BS about how he's going to get tough and make them play the right way from now on

[Chip R]

Well considering that Naehring has been running the minors for several years now, isn't the fact that the youngsters aren't playing "the right way" an indictment of Naehring?

Every year, we get to hear Naehring's BS about how he's going to get tough and make them play the right way from now on

I didn't hear the beginning of it but from what I gathered he was saying they play the right way until they get in the majors and then they fall into "bad habits". Probably stuff like facial hair and pants down to the shoetops bugs him. He was really up in arms about it too. At first I thought it was some fan calling in complaining but I realized that he talked too well to just be a fan.

[REDREAD]

So Naehring gets them all whipped into shape, and then they fall apart as soon as they hit the big leagues :lol: ?

Naehring strikes me as the type that will always complain about big leaguers not playing the game the right way. I assume he didn't go into specifics, of course.

[Joseph]

Thanks for the update Chip, I stopped listening mostly due to work contraints, but also because 1360 hasn't been streaming very well for me over the last month or so. Add in the fact he might drop some interesting nugget once every few weeks and it wasn't anything worth fighting for. :)

[traderumor]

More excuses made by incompetent people who don't have any real answers. Teams that do things "the right way" have talented players, which is one reason that they do things "the right way." The trouble is that they don't have any tangible traits for the type of ballplayers that do things "the right way." It's baseball speak made by "baseball men." Enough already, get someone in there with more talent than connections and we might get somewhere.

[icehole3]

Even if the approach is right or wrong, dumb or smart, works or doesnt work at least there's a plan in place. It beats not having a plan in place and at least a top five draft pick didnt blow out a shoulder. Do they at least get any credit for that...let me get back in my hole before the whole Redszone world comes down on me.

[westofyou]

Even if the approach is right or wrong, dumb or smart, works or doesnt work at least there's a plan in place.

The Maginot Line was a plan.

That worked out well.

[WMR]

Even if the approach is right or wrong, dumb or smart, works or doesnt work at least there's a plan in place. It beats not having a plan in place and at least a top five draft pick didnt blow out a shoulder. Do they at least get any credit for that...let me get back in my hole before the whole Redszone world comes down on me.

Hey, at least the Dude's got a "PLAN"

http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/bad_escape_plan.jpg

[wheels]

Even if the approach is right or wrong, dumb or smart, works or doesnt work at least there's a plan in place. It beats not having a plan in place and at least a top five draft pick didnt blow out a shoulder. Do they at least get any credit for that...let me get back in my hole before the whole Redszone world comes down on me.

What's the plan? Pray tell.

Oh I remember...

Grossly over pay for historically incompetant pitching, draft for seven years down the road, pitch to contact, take first pitches.

Yeah, you're right.

At least they have a plan. :thumbup:

[wheels]

Hey, at least the Dude's got a "PLAN"

http://www.ahajokes.com/cartoon/bad_escape_plan.jpg



Nothing sums up the '05 season more than this picture.

Good work.

[icehole3]

maybe we should fire everyone in the front office every year until we get it right

[Boss-Hog]

maybe we should fire everyone in the front office every year until we get it right Hiring some people with a clue as to building a winning team works for me.

[wheels]

Or we could just keep everyone around, regardless of record or result.

Who needs that accountability thingy anyway?

[KronoRed]

maybe we should fire everyone in the front office every year until we get it right

Better then what we're doing now.

[icehole3]

Hiring some people with a clue as to building a winning team works for me.

I believe even if we could land Billy Beane guys here would complain

:p:

[traderumor]

I believe even if we could land Billy Beane guys here would complain

:p:you write as if folks are complaining just to complain about current leadership. So, defend the current era purely on merit. What have they done that has you excited about the future and warrants commendation?

[cincinnati chili]

maybe we should fire everyone in the front office every year until we get it right

I know you're somewhat kidding here, but I don't think it would necessarily be a bad think to fire EVERYONE in the organization and just start over. I know it didn't necessarily work out too well, but that's what Dan Snyder did when he took over the Redskins.

It's harsh, and you end up eliminating competent people too (like Kullman). But it's a good way to infuse an organization with energy. I think you see in organizations like airlines that when new management comes in and asks old employees to change their behavior, the old employees' natural reactions are to say, "why should I work harder, I'm not getting paid any more than I used to."

[ochre]

Pitching bearing fruit in the low minors? Call me when it makes it to/past AA without rotting.

The biggest component of a plan that I can determine is to draft weak hitting college fielders. That's been the most consistant aspect of their strategy that I have seen. I'm sure they play the game the 'right' way though.

[paintmered]

The Maginot Line was a plan.

That worked out well.

:laugh: :laugh:

[icehole3]

you write as if folks are complaining just to complain about current leadership. So, defend the current era purely on merit. What have they done that has you excited about the future and warrants commendation?

whenever I do that the whole Redzone world comes crashing down on me, telling me to get back in my hole. So lets just say that every aquisition the Reds made this past year didnt turn out to be sour grapes, but because OBrien doesnt make the fantasy league fancy pants moves like some of the regular stat-loving Redszone posters would like him to he gets bashed with the "I wish they would fire him, I wish they would fire him" once a week posts. Its just a tired act after reading it aaaaaaaall year long.

:p:

[IslandRed]

I believe even if we could land Billy Beane guys here would complain

:p:

If he was here two years without making any obvious progress, then yeah, we probably would.

To me, it's pretty simple. We're a small-market team, like it or not. But we're not doomed. Teams are out there proving that being in our payroll class is not fatal. But to make that happen, the small-market GM can't be subpar or even average -- he has to be above average, well above average, in terms of making baseball decisions, evaluating talent, finding edges. He has to "win" most of his decisions and for crying out loud he can't make the big, crippling mistakes. I see no way to look at the totality of O'Brien's tenure and conclude that he's that kind of guy. And if he's not, the sooner we cut our losses, the better.

Kind of a moot point until the ownership situation is resolved, though.

[icehole3]

How on earth can anyone implement any type of program that was so depleted talent wise as this organization was in a little over a year and half time period. Give this group a chance to put his people in place, develop a system in the lower minors and try to stockpile some prospects at AA and AAA, last week he made some cuts of different personel in the minors and everytime I turn around this board is wanting someone new put in the GM spot...thats why I say OK lets start over every year.

[WMR]

How on earth can anyone implement any type of program that was so depleted talent wise as this organization was in a little over a year and half time period. Give this group a chance to put his people in place, develop a system in the lower minors and try to stockpile some prospects at AA and AAA, last week he made some cuts of different personel in the minors and everytime I turn around this board is wanting someone new put in the GM spot...thats why I say OK lets start over every year.

Eric Milton.

As bad as the Milton signing was, the true demonstration of DanO's utter and complete ineptitude, in my opinion, was his re-signing of Paul Wilson when he KNEW THAT WILSON'S SHOULDER WAS HANGING TOGETHER BY A FEW SHREDS OF MUSCLE!!!

What more do you need to know? That is far from the only mistake that he has made, but that re-signing, more than any other single decision, demonstrate DanO's braindead approach to building a winning ballclub.

Has he ever done anything proactive?! He's the most reactionary GM I've ever observed outside of maybe Steinbrenner (let's be honest, he's the real GM) and maybe Omar Minaya. Notice, both those guys are operating with payrolls well in excess of 100 million dollars!!! THEY CAN AFFORD TO BE REACTIONARY.

We, The Reds, CANNOT.

The truly great organizations are the ones who combine a hefty payroll WITH a great GM (cough cough, Atlanta Braves).

We aren't going to have the payroll, so we've sure as hell got to have the GM!!! DANO is NOT that guy.

[icehole3]

Then the next guy we hire, he wont be the guy either and on and on and on.

[SteelSD]

Then the next guy we hire, he wont be the guy either and on and on and on.

That's simply the most defeatist thing I've ever heard.

Maybe you need to stop for a moment and read the responses your ostrich-speak has generated. Had Dan O'Brien joined the Reds and immediately done smart things, you'd see a different attitude. In fact, if Dan O'Brien had done smart things last offseason, some folks may have changed their opinion of him- even after his inept first year machinations.

But he hasn't done smart things. He's done dumb things. Really dumb things. Eric Milton dumb things. Sub-dice-rolling dumb things.

You could pull names from a hat and do better than Dan O'Brien has during his tenure. You could roll dice or flop cards or throw darts at a board while blindfolded and have a better chance of hitting on something that would help the Reds.

See, it's the General Manager's responsibility to put a quality MLB product on the field. Has Dan O'Brien done that? No. Has Dan O'Brien produced a high-level prospect cabable who's on the verge of helping the MLB franchise? No. Has Dan O'Brien acquired anyone in trade who will help the MLB franchise become a quality baseball team? No. In fact, O'Brien has done absolutely nothing to make the MLB product better and his drafting has set this franchise years behind where the developmental pipeline would be with a good General Manager at the helm.

Just appearing to have a "plan" might be enough for you to continue to support a completely inept GM, but most folks need to identify that a "plan" has a snowball's chance of working before they'll throw any support behind said plan's architect. Unfortunately, if Dan O'Brien were asked to build a house, the roof would be a wall, the home would have no ceiling, and the toilet would be firmly affixed to the external wall of the kitchen. If you don't know what a house is supposed to look like, you might mistake the construct for one but the reality is that it would be completely untenable- pretty much like your position in this thread.

But no worries. I expect you'll come around once you figure out the difference between smart baseball decisions and dumb ones.

[4256 Hits]

How on earth can anyone implement any type of program that was so depleted talent wise as this organization was in a little over a year and half time period.

I disagree completely this oranization was totally loaded w/ offensive talent at the MLB level. Granted the pitching was a major void but Linder gave him the money this offseason to fix that problem at the MLB level and goes out and spends 20+ Mil on 3 pitchers that have a combined ERA well over 6.

The kicker maybe the Milton (and Wilson) signing(s) very well may prevent them from having the money to keep Dunn.

[M2]

icehole, let's boil this down to its simplest point. The Reds are rebuilding (or at least should be). Name me a young player DanO's acquired who should be able to provide significant help in the next two years?

After you're done grasping at straws ask yourself if that's the successful execution of any sort of winning plan.

[WMR]

icehole, let's boil this down to its simplest point. The Reds are rebuilding (or at least should be). Name me a young player DanO's acquired who should be able to provide significant help in the next two years?

After you're done grasping at straws ask yourself if that's the successful execution of any sort of winning plan.

On a related note: Please see: Cleveland Indians; i.e. Mark Shapiro

[REDREAD]

Then the next guy we hire, he wont be the guy either and on and on and on.

I disagree. Let's look over the history of the message board. Whenever Bowden or DanO did something that was clearly good, most of the people praised him. For example, by the allstar break, there was pretty much universal consensus that Weathers, Mercker, and Randa were excellent moves. True, most people wanted to release Weathers after the first week, but they ended up coming around, once Weathers started producing.

It's impossible to defend DanO's bigger moves though, particularly Milton and Wilson. Ortiz isn't that big of a blunder to me IMO, we gave up nothing for him and we can cut him loose at the end of the year. Of course, there's the opportunity cost of the 4 million or so we paid Ortiz, but it's worth a shot.

DanO's other big goof is that he did NOTHING about the 4 OF situation. If anything, it's worse now. Cleveland (and likely other teams) were dangling quality young pitching for Kearns in the offseason and spring training, and DanO was to indecisive to pull the trigger. That's as big of a goof as signing Wilson, IMO.

[icehole3]

icehole, let's boil this down to its simplest point. The Reds are rebuilding (or at least should be). Name me a young player DanO's acquired who should be able to provide significant help in the next two years?

After you're done grasping at straws ask yourself if that's the successful execution of any sort of winning plan.

No one said he was going to win GM of the year so that question is irrelevant. The whole point being is to say to posters like yourself who follow every move and every stat like the National Hurricane Center should know that developing a different system from the previous regime that clearly had no regard for pitching (which is the key to a small market team winning) takes more than 1 1/2 years. Im just saying everyone calm down...give Lindner at least 1 more year to get it right. Dont sweat every transaction like Move On.org, unless you just hate the guy anyways then there's nothing I can do to lower your blood pressure...so if thats the case I'll just stick my head back in the sand and wait for the young kids who havent blown their arms off their collective shoulders to move up though the system because the GM decided it was better to handle his young pitchers like fine china.

:p:

[M2]

No one said he was going to win GM of the year so that question is irrelevant. The whole point being is to say to posters like yourself who follow every move and every stat like the National Hurricane Center should know that developing a different system from the previous regime that clearly had no regard for pitching (which is the key to a small market team winning) takes more than 1 1/2 years. Im just saying everyone calm down...give Lindner at least 1 more year to get it right. Dont sweat every transaction like Move On.org, unless you just hate the guy anyways then there's nothing I can do to lower your blood pressure...so if thats the case I'll just stick my head back in the sand and wait for the young kids who havent blown their arms off their collective shoulders to move up though the system because the GM decided it was better to handle his young pitchers like fine china.

That's the biggest cop out I've ever read.

This different approach he's supposedly taking hasn't produced so much as a single young player of any quality we can expect within a four year window. The guy's been on the job two years and so far he's been impotent. He hasn't even been able to find any advanced talent in the draft. BTW, the organization's been as promotion happy as ever with young pitchers, they just haven't had a lot of arms worthy of promoting.

Simply, there's nothing there. No youth movement. No grand remaking of the organization. No plan whatsoever. DanO's tenure has lacked both results and cohesion. That you can't tick off a list of his material accomplishments (or indeed a single accomplishment) is really all you need to know.

[westofyou]

No one said he was going to win GM of the year so that question is irrelevant.Personally I could care less if he ever wins "GM of the Year" What would behoove me would be some more proaction as opposed to inaction.

Currently the Reds are working on their 5th straight losing season.

Here's probably the worst run of Reds teams that extends 5 years.

1945 7th 61 93 .396 37
1946 6th 67 87 .435 30
1947 5th 73 81 .474 21
1948 7th 64 89 .418 27
1949 7th 62 92 .403 35
1950 6th 66 87 .431 24.5
1951 6th 68 86 .442 28.5
1952 6th 69 85 .448 27.5
1953 6th 68 86 .442 37
1954 5th 74 80 .481 23
1955 5th 75 79 .487 23.5

So in essence the Reds currently are sitting in September of 1949, right towards the end of Warren Giles tenure as the Reds GM

The Reds are baseball's equivalent to Groundhog Day and O'Brien is Warren Giles in this version of that movie.

One thing to know about the Reds then is that Warren Giles was their President/Gm, a strict no-nonsense guy who was not known for his glibness or people skills with the players. He was in his 14th year as the Reds GM and was one of the major reasons the 1939-40 clubs succeeded (so he actually had a feather in his hat... unlike O'Brien) Giles at this time seemed more interested in not succeeding than succeeding, soley by the lack of moves he made and the buzz was that he was known as a penny pincher by the players and the club was known as a "cheap outfit" in the National League as related by Ewell Blackwell in "We played the Game"

So the Reds known as being cheap and had a GM that seemed paralyzed by the teams ineptness to the point that he himself couldn't dig them out of the hole they had fallen in.

The more things change the more they stay the same....

From the end of the 1949 season until the day that Giles became the NL President the Reds made exactly 1 trade that involved a starting player and this was after Giles had dumped slugger Hank Sauer and LF Baumhowitz in the mid season for 2 players that would never do anything for the Reds. That would be the equal to signing Eric Milton and Paul Wilson in my eyes.

So... sitting 5 seasons into a stinker of a run here are the trades Giles made in his last 2 years compared to the trades that Gabe Paul made in the one year since he replaced Giles:

The Transactions for the 1949-51 Cincinnati Reds


September 26, 1949
Purchased Nels Potter from Boston Braves.

October 14, 1949
Purchased Marv Rackley from Brooklyn Dodgers for $60000.

November 17, 1949
Major League Draft
Selected Rudy Minarcin from Philadelphia Phillies.

December 5, 1949
Minor League Draft
Lost Dewey Williams to Seattle (PCL).

December 14, 1949
Traded Harry Walker to St. Louis Cardinals in exchange
for Lou Klein and RonNorthey.

1950
Ed Bailey signed as an amateur free agent.
Dutch Dotterer signed as an amateur free agent.
Don Gross signed as an amateur free agent.
Bob Hazle signed as an amateur free agent.
Ted Tappe signed as an amateur free agent.

February 10, 1950
Sold Johnny Vander Meer to Chicago Cubs.

May 8, 1950
Lost Frank Fanovich to New York Giants on waivers.

May 10, 1950
Sold Jimmy Bloodworth to Philadelphia Phillies.
Purchased Willie Ramsdell from Brooklyn Dodgers.
Traded Walker Cooper to Boston Braves in exchange for Connie Ryan.

June 2, 1950
Ray Lamanno released.

June 7, 1950
Traded Ron Northey to Chicago Cubs in exchange for Bob Scheffing.

June 20, 1950
Jim Bolger signed as an amateur free agent.

September 7, 1950
Sold Peanuts Lowrey to St. Louis Cardinals.

October 11, 1950
Sold Johnny Hetki to St. Louis Browns.

December 4, 1950
Danny Litwhiler released.

1951
Bobby Durnbaugh signed as an amateur free agent.
Joe Trimble released.

May 4, 1951
Purchased Barney McCosky from Philadelphia Athletics.

July 21, 1951
Claimed Hank Edwards from Brooklyn Dodgers on waivers.
Lost Barney McCosky to Cleveland Indians on waivers.

July 28, 1951
Danny Litwhiler signed as a free agent.

August 1, 1951
Lost Bob Scheffing to St. Louis Cardinals on waivers.
After Giles left Gabe Paul took over as GM and started to make some moves..... this team needs a Gabe Paul, not a Warren Giles


October 4, 1951

Traded Johnny Pramesa and Bob Usher to Chicago Cubs
in exchange for Smoky Burgess and Bob Borkowski.

November 19, 1951
Major League Draft
Selected Hank Foiles from New York Yankees.
Selected Joe Rossi from Portland (PCL).

December 3, 1951
Minor League Draf
Selected Ed Sanicki from Philadelphia Phillies.

December 10, 1951
Traded Connie Ryan, Smoky Burgess and Howie Fox
to Philadelphia Philliesin exchange for Andy Seminick,
Eddie Pellagrini, Dick Sisler and Niles Jordan.

January 3, 1952
Traded Willie Ramsdell to Chicago Cubs in exchange for Frank Hiller.

May 13, 1952
Traded Dick Sisler and Virgil Stallcup to St. Louis Cardinals in
exchange for Eddie Kazak and Wally Westlake.

May 23, 1952
Traded Johnny Wyrostek and Kent Peterson
to Philadelphia Phillies in exchange for Bubba Church.

May 25, 1952
Claimed Phil Haugstad from Brooklyn Dodgers on waivers.

June 4, 1952
Purchased Willard Marshall from Boston Braves.

June 9, 1952
Traded Rudy Rufer and cash to Brooklyn Dodgers
in exchange for Cal Abrams.

June 15, 1952
Traded Bud Byerly and cash to Brooklyn Dodgers
in exchange for Bud Podbielan.

July 2, 1952
Phil Haugstad released.

July 6, 1952
Purchased Nino Escalera from Toledo-Charleston
(American Association).

August 7, 1952
Sold Wally Westlake to Cleveland Indians.

August 28, 1952
Traded Ewell Blackwell to New York Yankees
in exchange for Johnny Schmitz, Jim Greengrass,
Ernie Nevel, Bob Marquis and $35000.

September 1, 1952
Traded Hank Edwards to Chicago White Sox
in exchange for a player to be named later;
Cincinnati Reds received Howie Judson (December 9, 1952).

October 10, 1952
Sold Dixie Howell to Brooklyn Dodgers.
Purchased Clyde King from Brooklyn Dodgers.

October 13, 1952
Traded Frank Hiller to New York Giants in exchange for Gail Henley.

October 14, 1952
Traded Cal Abrams, Joe Rossi and Gail Henley
to Pittsburgh Pirates in exchange for Gus Bell.

[icehole3]

You absolutely blow me away with your historical analyst. Excuse me while I go back into my hole.

[redsfanmia]

This team needs to move in a new direction, I think we all know that. DanO's successes have been few and his failures have been many. He is way to indecisive to be a successful gm in my opinion. I feel that he fails to make moves because he is afraid of making the wrong move so instead of doing something he is doing nothing. Signing Randa was a good move then turning him for two pitchers who might help in the future was a great move, Mercker and Weathers were good moves, and really Ortiz hasnt been a complete waste. Signing D-Lo is inexcuseable when there was a better and cheaper replacement in Freel at second base. There needs to be major changes made in the organization, but honestly as long as current ownership is still in place nothing is going to happen. I hope that we get a good solid owner who is not afraid to make changes and not letting the fanbase dictate who stays and who goes.

[jnwohio]

How relevant the focus on DanO is at this point? Right now he probably has about as much (little) unilateral authority as we followers of this board do.

That majority stake in the team will be sold most likely sometime between mid November and the first of 2006. If the Lindners end up exercising 1st refusal, then DanO's future is a legit issue. However, if somebody else ends up with the majority share then either they will be in outright control or the Reds will be in the midst of a transition plan which will pass control to the new majority owners over some period of time.

If the new folks are in control immediately, Allen and DanO are probably both history their first day on the job. If there is a transition period, Allen and perhaps even DanO probably survive thru next season. But even if they are around as part of a transition, we don't know what their marching orders will be.


For my part, I am just hoping for an early quick clean transaction that does not leave the team handcuffed during the prime weeks of player retention and acquisition decisions.

[deltachi8]

Eric Milton.

Thats enough to get you fired in my book. I actually like some of what he has done in the minors (save for the tandem rotation thing). However, when you know a guy is a fly ball pitcher, GABP is a home run friendly park AND the guy has had some issues with his knee you still give him $25M. And why? because you panicked when Matt Clement turned you down. O'Brien did the right thing going after Clement, but the decision to go all in when you dont get the right cards, is just plain foolish. Your better off folding and ready yourself to play another hand.

The Paul Wilson signing was icing on the cake.

[REDREAD]

Here's probably the worst run of Reds teams that extends 5 years. [cut, but it was 1945-1955]

Sadly, I think the group of bumbling idiots running this club are going to challenge that record. Assuming there isn't a major cash infusion, I just don't see the enough talent arriving from the farm to turn things around within 5 years.

Although I guess it's possible for DanO to get canned, and for the Reds to hire a guy that's good at bottom feeding and patching the team to slightly over .500 with retreads.

[zombie-a-go-go]

Although I guess it's possible for DanO to get canned, and for the Reds to hire a guy that's good at bottom feeding and patching the team to slightly over .500 with retreads.

Anyone know if Bowden's going to be available this offseason? ;)