Game Thread: Reds vs. Twins 3/13/06

[timmario66]

Tonight's lineup per Marc:

SARASOTA -- Now, the lineups for the Reds' first night game of the spring:


Twins
Jason Tyner CF
Luis Rodriguez 2B
Lew Ford RF
Jason Kubel DH
Tony Batista 3B
Justin Morneau 1B
Josh Rabe LF
Chris Heintz C
Jason Bartlett SS
Kyle Lohse P

Reds
Ryan Freel DH
Tony Womack 2B
Edwin Encarnacion 3B
Adam Dunn 1B
Rich Aurilia SS
Austin Kearns RF
Jason LaRue C
Quinton McCracken LF
Chris Denorfia CF
Dave Williams P

Hopefully see something good out of Williams tonight.

[KronoRed]

The twins fear EE

[TRF]

Freel

at

DH.

wow. He can't buy PT at 2B this spring.

[guttle11]

That's one heck of a lineup the Twins are putting out. SS?

[Reds1]

Hope Williams can have another nice outing. Our line up without Griffey and Casey looks a little yuck. LOL Wily Mo too I guess! :)

[vaticanplum]

The twins fear EE

E. Encarnacion, Twins Killer

[M2]

When a manager like Narron starts hitting you 3rd that's a major sign of respect.

[BRM]

When a manager like Narron starts hitting you 3rd that's a major sign of respect.

Hatteberg typically hits 3rd when he's in the lineup.

[M2]

Hatteberg typically hits 3rd when he's in the lineup.

And he's a cagy veteran whom Narron no doubt adores.

[BRM]

And he's a cagy veteran whom Narron no doubt adores.

Cagy? I like that term. It's used in the pro wrestling circuit quite a bit.

[Heath]

FWIW - I am watching the DR/Cuba WBC game - and someone needs to get the fashion police out. The Cuba Red Pants are absolutely atrocious.

And woy, yes, I've heard about the Reds wearing Reds Pants in the 1930's I believe. :D

[M2]

Cagy? I like that term. It's used in the pro wrestling circuit quite a bit.

And you know Hatteberg's got to a have a foreign object stashed on him somewhere.

[BRM]

And you know Hatteberg's got to a have a foreign object stashed on him somewhere.

Hatteberg, Womack, and Milton in a loser leaves town match. Who do you root for?

[redsmetz]

http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online_exhibits/dressed_to_the_nines/detail_page.asp?fileName=nl_1936_cincinnati.gif&Entryid=574

From the HOF - the 1936 uniforms

[M2]

Hatteberg, Womack, and Milton in a loser leaves town match. Who do you root for?

Hatteberg, though I support the concept of Milton cheating to win (someone needs to send him a care package of Vaseline and emory boards).

[BRM]

Hatteberg, though I support the concept of Milton cheating to win (someone needs to send him a care package of Vaseline and emory boards).

Good point. Maybe the Reds can hire Gaylord Perry as his personal pitching coach.

[membengal]

I like Hatteberg, and I like his inclusion on the team, in theory. That theory being the same one I had with Aurilia this time last year before the bad man handed Aurilia a starting spot ahead of FeLo. IF Hatteberg is here as a lefty bat off the bench and one start a week or so, then fine. If it's to be a starter? Well, less fine. I am assuming its the former, and don't read anything into his many spring at-bats, other than to note that with Pena and Jr. gone, there has been plenty of chances to play him with Dunn getting some OF time to stay sharp.

[KronoRed]

Freel

at

DH.

wow. He can't buy PT at 2B this spring.
Competition my foot.

[BRM]

Competition my foot.

The only real competition was for 3B. Womack had 2B sewn up the day he was signed.

[Hoosier Red]

Now wait a second, the Reds have played 12 games, and Freel has started at least 3 at 2nd base if memory serves.
Plus he's a known commodity.
Plus he hasn't hit his weight, or Lindsay Lohan during her eating disorders' weight.

I'm not in Womacks' camp, but if you're going to go off of spring performances, it's hard to say he doesn't deserve the spot over Freel right now.

[BRM]

, but if you're going to go off of spring performances,

I don't. I go off their career performance. There is no reason for Freel to be "competing" with Womack or Aurilia for the 2B job.

[Hoosier Red]

Why, it's not like Ryan Freel has proven himself to be a superstar.
I'm not going to argue about whether he has been better than Aurillia or Womack over the course of his career.
But this isn't Felipe Lopez or Edwin Encarnacion, two great prospects who need to start in order to establish themselves.
This isn't Adam Dunn or Ken Griffey Jr, who have proven themselves to be so superior at their position over time at their position that you can accept a poor spring training.

People act like if Tony Womack is the opening day 2nd Baseman, he'll be there all year. Baseball is a marathon, and the way you get through the marathon is occasionally challenging guys and playing the hot hands.

If Womack continues to hit and get on base all spring, I definately want him to start on Opening Day. If he cools off, and Ryan Freel can unseat him, great, if not then Freel doesn't deserve the position anyway.

Ryan Freel has played well over the last two years, but he certainly doesn't deserve to have the position handed to him.

[TRF]

No, Freel has proven to be a guy that gets on base at a .370 clip, steals bases, and likely plays as good if not a better 2B than Womack.

He was just signed to a 2 year deal.

This is RA all over again, with Freel competing for a spot that should have been his as of last year.

[Heath]

Take good notes, kids - prior engagement this evening.

See you after the game!

(rep points may be awarded!) Stay tuned! ;)

[KronoRed]

Take good notes, kids - prior engagement this evening.

Where's your commitment??? ;)

[BRM]

No, Freel has proven to be a guy that gets on base at a .370 clip, steals bases, and likely plays as good if not a better 2B than Womack.

He was just signed to a 2 year deal.

This is RA all over again, with Freel competing for a spot that should have been his as of last year.

Exactly. Thanks for the reply here TRF. I was out and unable to answer the question.

[Caveat Emperor]

If Womack continues to hit and get on base all spring, I definately want him to start on Opening Day. If he cools off, and Ryan Freel can unseat him, great, if not then Freel doesn't deserve the position anyway.

Ryan Freel has played well over the last two years, but he certainly doesn't deserve to have the position handed to him.

That's just it, though -- Womack has proven throughout his career that he's not going to hit, he's not going to get on, and, at this point in his career, the only way he's going to steal bases with regularity is if someone leaves the equipment room unlocked.

Ryan Freel, on the other hand, has produced consistently when he's been in the lineup over the last few years.

He's simply a better player -- and the goal of any team should be (absent issues of developing v. declining skills) to put the best 8 players on the field every night. That simple, simple concept is something the Reds have had a difficult time figuring out the last few years.

[Hoosier Red]

I'm willing to concede that Freel has been superior to this point. However, it's not like he's irreplaceable.

I'm not arguing the merits of whether there should be a competition. It doesn't matter what we think, there is a competition.
What I was arguing was whether Freel is getting a "fair shot," and he is. So far he hasn't played well. Hopefully he turns that around.

It's also not a repeat of Aurillia, going into last season Lopez hadn't proven anything, and certainly didn't look like a guy who would be the everyday shortstop. He outplayed Aurillia in spring training by a fairly healthy margin, and eventually got his shot and did the best with it.

[RedsManRick]

Narron has repeatedly said that veterans don't need to prove themselves in ST. IIRC, he actually said it once in response to a Freel quesiton. Freel is essentially a known commodity. His performance in ST likely has little bearing on how he'll be used.

Everything I've read suggests that Freel will not be named the starting 2B. He will be used in a utility role which sees him start 3 or 4 times a week. They've stated repeatedly that they just don't think he could hold up physicaly as a full time player. He could hit .500 in ST and that point of view likely wouldn't change. The real question seems to be who is the "starting" 2B, and sadly, it's looking like Womack at this point.

[flyer85]

Womack sure is making good use of that speed this spring. Stretching a triple into a double.

Minnesota broadcasters pointed out a similar play with Tyner(to the Womack play being out at 3rd) in the Twins first and pointed out how the Twins 2B went out much further to get the relay and made a strong accurate throw whereas the Reds 2B(Womack) did not.

[flyer85]

I'm willing to concede that Freel has been superior to this point. However, it's not like he's irreplaceable.
But Womack has been well below replacement level 2 of the last 3 seasons. He is a known commodity as well, one the Reds would be much better off without and thats only from an offensive standpoint.

[membengal]

Dunn leads off bottom of second with a double.

2-0 Twins, one run in each of the first two innings for them off of Wiliams.

For those of you with XM, it's on channel 183, and it would be available on mlb.com for those of you with the audio pass. Twins announcers.

[membengal]

Aurilia flies out to RF, Dunn stays put. One out.

Kearns strikes out. Two outs.

Kyle Lohse pitching for the Twins.

LaRue strikes out as well.

2-0 Twins after two.

[membengal]

Two up, two down, quickly in the Twins third.

For those of you with DirecTV, check your channel 641. It's listing the Twins at Reds game as being on, altho I, for some reason, have it denied me and blacked out here in Memphis. Maybe better luck for some of you in different zip codes.

[membengal]

A third fly ball out ends the Twins half of the third.

2-0 Twins in the middle of the third.

[flyer85]

I am beginning to get comfortable with the notion that Milton, WIlliams and Wilson are going to be nothing short of a disaster when they pitch. Going in to last season Harang and Claussen were the 4/5 starters and look where they are now. Claussen was the last pitcher on an opening day roster in 2005 to actually pitch in a game.

Would Germano, Gosling and Belisle be better? Possibly but at least there is some long term potential. There is no upside to Milton and Wilson and only a little with Williams.

[membengal]

Flyer, I am with you. When you have pitchers as bad as Milton and Wilson were last year, you have to figure door #2 simply can't be any worse, and might even be better...

[membengal]

McCracken leads off the Reds third with a basehit, his 12th of the spring...

[membengal]

Denorfia follows with a hit to CF as well, two runners on, no one out. Freel due up.

[membengal]

Hey Marc. I see you lurking. Your blog continues to be solid, and your work much appreciated. But boot that Prose 14 guy from your comments section, he is insane...

[membengal]

Freel takes a third strike. This really is not helping his case for a starting job. One out. Womack due up.

[membengal]

Womack flies to RF, McCracken tags up. Two outs, runners on first and third, EE due up.

EE works a walk. Dunn up with bases loaded. Twins announcers complimenting EE for laying off of pitches that others have been chasing...


Dunn works count full, then Tyner in CF robs Dunn with a diving catch.

2-0 Twins after three.

[KronoRed]

Productive out ;)

[flyer85]

EE works a walk. Dunn up with bases loaded. Twins announcers complimenting EE for laying off of pitches that others have been chasing...with his performance and plate discipline I think this team might be well served to bat EE in front of Jr.

[membengal]

Base hit for the Twins to start the 4th inning. Williams still on the mound...

Twins announcers mention that EE is out of the game. I presume that is simply a nod to his hot spring and a "you won't keep getting the rookie type treatment" from Narron and not an EE injury. I believe they said Menechino is in at 3b now.

[oneupper]

with his performance and plate discipline I think this team might be well served to bat EE in front of Jr.

Don't forget his speed! :)

[membengal]

Now a basehit to LF, Twins have runners on first and second with 0 outs. Morneau up.

Passed ball moves the runners up to 2nd and 3rd, that's the second passed ball on LaRue this game...altho Twins announcers think it should have been a wild pitch. Twins announcers note that Williams won't beat you with heat...

Morneau singles, run scores, runners on 1st and 3rd, still no outs.

Now official scorer has changed it to a wild pitch.

[flyer85]

Don't forget his speed! :)one thing that bothers me about the whole speed thing it is really stupid to have guys running in front of Jr and Dunn excepting maybe late inning situations. I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Lopez and EE up at the top, good speed to take extra bases but not enough to be taking chances stealing.

[Falls City Beer]

Does anyone think Larussa would take Williams off the Reds' hands?

[membengal]

Line drive to Menechino for first out, still runners on 1st and 3rd.

Sac fly gets run home, still runner at first, two outs.

4-0 Twins.

Oddly enough, Narron picks this spot to change pitchers.

[membengal]

6 hits, 4 runs, all earned, from Williams in 3 2/3 against a Twins line-up that I wouldn't consider their, ahem, "A" squad.

Rick White in to the game.

[membengal]

White gets a K of Bartlett.

4-0 Twins middle of the fourth.

[flyer85]

6 hits, 4 runs, all earned, from Williams in 3 2/3 against a Twins line-up that I wouldn't consider their, ahem, "A" squad.more like a B- squad. Williams is a poor fit for GABP and is one in a long line of really stupid moves that DanO made.

[membengal]

I would like to think the Reds at least did a courtesy asking about Maholm, but, yeah, probably not. Williams sure looks like an awful fit for this club in that park...

Aurilia flies out to start the inning, then Kearns flies out to the warning track.

LaRue flies out to RF as well.

4-0 Twins after four full.

[flyer85]

I would like to think the Reds at least did a courtesy asking about Maholm, but, yeah, probably not. Williams sure looks like an awful fit for this club in that park...

Aurilia flies out to start the inning, then Kearns flies out to the warning track.I'd have been more than happy for Snell. Williams was the worst they had(even worse than Redman) and he had no spot on the 2006 Pirates with the likes of Duke, Gorzelany, Maholm, Snell, etc.

[membengal]

Homer Bailey in to pitch. Damn I wish this wasn't blacked out on my DirecTV, again, for those of you with Direct, check channel 641 and see if you can get the game...

[membengal]

First batter routine flyball out to right.

Twins announcers note that in response to a question they asked of Marty B about whether the Reds would be any good that Marty said " No, I don't think so, we have no pitching and we can't field..."

[flyer85]

Twins announcers dinging the Reds defense and singled out three veterans as very poor defenders.

ANy guesses?

[membengal]

On a full count pitch, Twins hitter doubles into the right field corner. Before that LaRue caught a pitch in the dirt and the Twins announcers chuckled that it was about time...

[Falls City Beer]

First batter routine flyball out to right.

Twins announcers note that in response to a question they asked of Marty B about whether the Reds would be any good that Marty said " No, I don't think so, we have no pitching and we can't field..."


When the problems are so clear that Marty grasps them, then they're really problems.

[membengal]

Womack...Pena...Dunn at 1b? LaRue at c?

[membengal]

Now Twins announcers are talking about the projected Reds staff. They are less than impressed. They still seem puzzled about Harang, remembering him from his Oakland days, and have no clue about how good his year was last year.

1-2 count on Lew Ford at the moment.

[membengal]

Bailey Ks Ford on a fastball. Two outs, man on.

Twins announcers now noting that Bailey has "good stuff" and that his delivery seems "fluid and easy".

[flyer85]

BTW, the three players singled out were Aurilia, Womack and McCracken.

Really bad when even the OPPOSING broadcasters can see it.

[membengal]

Twins announcers have now written off 2006 for the Reds, noting that they will be lucky to finish fifth. 3-1 count on the Twins hitter.

Bailey then induces a pop out. Nice inning for Bailey.

4-0 middle of the fifth, Twins still up.

[membengal]

BTW, the three players singled out were Aurilia, Womack and McCracken.

Really bad when even the OPPOSING broadcasters can see it.

Damn, I must have zoned out during that particular exegesis. Let's just say the Reds are not instilling fear in their opponents at this point.

[membengal]

McCracken grounds out on first pitch he sees in the fifth. Denorfia now up.

[membengal]

Twins announcers visited with Krivsky before the game, and are mentioning things they discussed. Krivsky told them that he is still getting a feel for the Reds' minor leaguers.

Denorfia strikes out. Two outs.

Freel strikes out chasing a bad pitch.

Whoever that was for the Twins (Michak?), he schooled them.

4-0 end of five, Twins still up.

[membengal]

Bailey still on for his second inning of work to start the sixth...

1-2 count on Tony Batista, then he cues a ball off the end of his bat into right for a basehit to start the inning.

Justin Morneau up.

[Falls City Beer]

Twins announcers visited with Krivsky before the game, and are mentioning things they discussed. Krivsky told them that he is still getting a feel for the Reds' minor leaguers.

Denorfia strikes out. Two outs.

Freel strikes out chasing a bad pitch.

Whoever that was for the Twins (Michak?), he schooled them.

4-0 end of five, Twins still up.


I hope Krivsky's comments are code for: I'm going to turn some of this crap in the minors into major league pitching.

[membengal]

Base hit to CF, ball falls in front of Denorfia. Two on, no outs.

[flyer85]

I hope Krivsky's comments are code for: I'm going to turn some of this crap in the minors into major league pitching. Maybe Wayne is an alchemist.

[Falls City Beer]

Maybe Wayne is an alchemist.

Polish up Wood, Bailey. Ya never know.

[flyer85]

3 bloop hits off of Bailey, sacks jammed with one out.

[membengal]

One out recorded, I missed how, sorry.

Thanks flyer. The Twins announcers have been talking about a snow blower and won't stop and I am losing the actual game call...

[membengal]

Fly ball to LF warning track. Caught for second out. Runner scores and runner on third base moves up. Two outs, first and third, 5-0 Twins.

Actually, may be one out now. I think the Twins announcers are not real sure about what is going on. Quite in love with snow blower mishaps though.

[flyer85]

Polish up Wood, Bailey. Ya never know.I hope he gets rid of the dead wood, then he can polish up his other wood.

[membengal]

Another basehit scores another, Twins have runners on first and second. Now 6-0 Twins.

I believe there to be just one out. Hume out to chat with Bailey. Twins announcers note that the Twins are not really teeing off on him, but getting polite singles aplenty...

[flyer85]

I believe there to be just one out.two out - infield pop and sac fly.

[membengal]

Looked like a swinging third strike, but LaRue dropped the ball. 2-2 count still.

[flyer85]

wrong thread

[membengal]

Ground ball to Womack, should have been an out, but Womack threw the ball away. Run scored.

Flyer, they are insisting there is just one out.

[flyer85]

throwing error on Womack. I am so disappointed

[membengal]

Bailey strikes out the next hitter, that was the second out, so there was just one out, now there are two.

[flyer85]

Ground ball to Womack, should have been an out, but Womack threw the ball away. Run scored.

Flyer, they are insisting there is just one out.I guess it doesn't matter. I would think it is time to rescue Bailey at this point

[membengal]

Fly ball to LF drops on the line, fair, opposite field, two runs score, now 9-0 Minnesota. The error on Womack...well, it didn't help.

Narron just came to get Bailey.

[membengal]

Either Brad Salmon or Jason Standridge in to pitch for Cincy, the Twins announcers think it is Salmon.

Twins announcers making fun of Reds "fielding" again. Hard to fault them for that.

Fly out to RF ends it.

Middle of the sixth, 9-0 Minnesota.

[flyer85]

The error on Womack...well, get used to it.

[membengal]

Womack gets hit with a pitch to start the 6th. Menechino up.

Menechino Ks.

[membengal]

Dunn grounds out, runner at 2b now. Twins announcers note that Dunn has hit into tough luck, with three hard hit balls, all caught.

[membengal]

Twins announcer says "I am not so sure Aurilia will start for this team"...

...other announcer says, "No, no, no...Felix Lopez starts for them."

First Twins announcer says "Felix Lopez, that's right, he's a good player."

You can't make this stuff up if you tried. Aurilia walks. Men on first and second. two outs.

[membengal]

Brian Buchanan pops up weakly to RF on the first pitch.

9-0 after six, Twins.

[captainmorgan07]

if tony womack makes this team it is ridiculous

[membengal]

Tons of changes for the Reds, with Mercker in to pitch to start the 7th.

First hitter pops out to RF.

Next guy strikes out on three pitches.

Four pitches so far for Mercker, two outs.

Pop out ends the inning. Eight pitches I believe.

9-0 Twins, middle of the 7th.

[traderumor]

If performance has anything to do with the OD roster, Womack will be on the phone with his agent after a DFA. He has done nothing, nothing but fulfill a multitude of negative posts about his skills.

[flyer85]

if tony womack makes this team it is ridiculoushave to be careful or you might get dinged. Repeat after me "Tony is a scrappy veteran who knows how to win". There, dont you feel better?

[membengal]

LaRue still in, pops out to start the 7th.

McCracken pops out. Two outs.

Reds appear to have better things to do tonight then play this game...

Denorfia grounds out in front of the plate. Reds have not had a hit since the third inning.

9-0 Minny after 7.

[membengal]

David Weathers in to pitch the 8th for the Reds.

Weathers walks the leadoff hitter. Does anyone feel comfortable with him closing games to start the season? Anyone at all?

I am still hoping Coffey gets the nod...(hey Coffeybro...)

[membengal]

Basehit to RF, runner goes to second base and stops. Runners on first and second. No outs.

13 hits for Minny on the night.

[membengal]

Force out of runner at 2b on 4-6 fielders choice.

Runners on first and third, one out.

Sac fly gets runner home, two outs, runner still on first.

10-0, Minnesota.

[membengal]

Twins announcers noting that Reds are "relying on a lot of players who have been on top but are now on the downside" and then listed womack, aurilia, mcCracken, weathers, among others...

[flyer85]

Does anyone feel comfortable with him closing games to start the season?the Reds will get there so rarely it isn't going to matter. With the state of the pitching and defense and potential offensive downgrades this will be a very long season.

[membengal]

For some reason, one of the Twins announcers just said "if you are relying on David Weathers for 6-7 innings, you are going to be disappointed". Well, that's true, has he ever started? Can't get anything by that guy.

Strikeout ends the inning.

10-0 Twins in the middle of the 8th.

[Coffeybro]

I am still hoping Coffey gets the nod...(hey Coffeybro...)
Hi
According to Todd's wife he is still at the park meaning he will most likely pitch the top of the 9th.

[membengal]

the Reds will get there so rarely it isn't going to matter. With the state of the pitching and defense and potential offensive downgrades this will be a very long season.

Well, I agree, but on those occasions they actually have a lead in the 9th, it's going to make me sad to see Weathers come in on a consistent basis...

[M2]

10-0?

Well, you had to figure the Twins were going to score a lot when you saw that lineup before the game.

[membengal]

Hi
According to Todd's wife he is still at the park meaning he will most likely pitch the top of the 9th.


Good. There's a reason to listen for one more inning anyway.

[membengal]

Jacob Cruz grounds out to start the 8th inning. Twins announcers note that Cruz was very slow getting down the first base line, and they are questioning whether he was really running hard.

Bannon reaches on a walk. Menechino up.

[membengal]

Menechino singles, scoring Bannon who took second on a fielders' indifference. That is one helluva bronx cheer the few remaining die hards just threw up, good for them.

Abad up. 10-1 Twins.

Abad walks. Runners at first and second with one out.

The immortal Earl Snyder now up for the Reds. JP Durbin is pitching for the Twins and is all over the place with it.

[M2]

Just as a sidenote, I hope Bannon gets a cup of coffee someday.

[membengal]

Now Twins announcers are making fun of how slow the Reds coaches go to the mound to talk to pitchers versus how fast the Twins coaches go to the mound for the same purpose.

THAT seems like a bit of a stretch in terms of criticism...wild pitch moves the runners to second and third.

[membengal]

The immortal Earl Snyder grounds out to 2b, runner scores. Two outs.

10-2 Twins.

Buchanon singles, Abad scores.

10-3 Twins.

LaRue walks, McCracken up with two outs and two on.

McCracken grounds out.

10-3 Twins at the end of eight.

[membengal]

Hi
According to Todd's wife he is still at the park meaning he will most likely pitch the top of the 9th.

No Coffey, which makes me sad.

Hammond on to pitch in the 9th.

[Coffeybro]

Guess they didn't want him to go out there tonight :-(

[membengal]

Leadoff hitter gets a single, the 14th Twins hit, to start the Twins 9th.

Wishing Coffey was in, next hitter doubles to CF. Two on, second and third, one out in between the hits.

Foul pop gets second out, no one scores.

Third out recorded.

10-3 heading to the bottom of the ninth.

[Sea Ray]

more like a B- squad. Williams is a poor fit for GABP and is one in a long line of really stupid moves that DanO made.

Yeah, this Sean Casey deal reminds me more and more of the Tony Perez deal in 1977. Dave Williams is the 2006 version of Woody Fryman. The parallels are freaky. Home town favorite, slow afoot, suspected of declining skills gets traded for a junk balling left hander. The Perez trade also included human batting tee Dale Murray who made us long for Tom Hume in those days but we won't go there.

[membengal]

Leadoff hitter out, didn't catch who. Jacob Cruz now up. Cruz HBP.

Bannon follows with a single, runners on first and second, still one out.

Menechino pops out to the pitcher. Two outs.

[Reds Nd2]

:beerme: Thanks for the updates tonight membengal.

[membengal]

Ground out ends the game.

10-3 Twins.

Ugly game.

[membengal]

:beerme: Thanks for the updates tonught membengal.


No problem, assumed they were helpful for some. Helps pass the time while stuck on the computer.

[captainmorgan07]

im already starting to dislike williams oh that's right i dislked him when he was with the pirates with those dumb sideburns since im forced to wach the pirates since i live in the pittsburgh area yet i still live in ohio u think i'd get fox sports ohio no comcast sticks me with fox sporst pittsburgh

[Reds1]

Didn't Williams pitch well in his 2nd outing. Everyone seems quick to throw this guy on the trash heep. Seems to me this deal is also about getting Wily Mo and Dunn at the same time. Even if Williams is a bust if Wily Mo rocks then it was still a good deal, but Williams being decent would put the icing on the cake. It's still early guys! Right now our problems are more then Williams though.

[M2]

... if Williams is a bust ...

Then the Reds traded a career .305 hitter for a bust.

[Reds1]

Consider Dunn gets his normal 40 HRs to take Caseys spot and then Wily Mo puts up 40 HRs to match Dunn. Consider Casey hit .305, but still didn't get the production as far as RBIs and was a rally killer with his speed. As we all know BA does not tell the total picture of a hitter. It basically becomes a salary dump and in all reality improves the team getting the younger guys in there playing.

Williams is also not a bust at this point and I don't believe he will be. No he won't be an ace, but unfortunately he is an upgrade to a pitching staff that could be starting some scrap heap if we don't get healthy fast.

[Ron Madden]

I'll take my neg rep points here.

As long as Jerry Narron writes the names of solid vets that "do the little things" at the top of the line up and contenues to play'em at middle infield we're in trouble.

Not only will Womack and Aurillia hurt this club on defense, they will make outs at the top of the order, causing the loss of ABs for more productive hitters.

Sorry.. thats the way I see it.

[M2]

It basically becomes a salary dump and in all reality improves the team getting the younger guys in there playing.

Can they pitch?

Because the point of the trade should have been to trade a bat for a good arm.


Williams is also not a bust at this point and I don't believe he will be. No he won't be an ace, but unfortunately he is an upgrade to a pitching staff that could be starting some scrap heap if we don't get healthy fast.

I've heard that argument ad infinitum in recent years. Ramon Ortiz was supposed to be an upgrade too. What the Reds did was replace Ortiz with a pitcher every bit as bad as Ortiz (though far less durable ... which ultimately might be a good thing).

[Heath]

Time to pass out the Heathies! This year's award winning award show where you, the loyal redszone.com readers and posters, are rewarded for your efforts on posting during a meaningless spring training game! Time's a wastin' - let's roll!

The first award for the "Old Style Harry Carey Fastest Play-By-Play Poster" is given to membengal! His diligence is worth noting, even on 10-3 blowout! Tip an Old Style with Harry! Congrats!

The award for the "Pepsi Scoreboard Stumper" goes to Flyer85 for his question that Twins announcers asked about the three worst Reds defenders! Thanks for the trivia question Flyer - and hey, I'm pulling for ya! :thumbup:

The award for "Best Insider Tip" goes to CoffeyBro who spoke to his brother's wife hoping he would pitch the 9th. Either way you look at, whether Narron's saving him for a game or doesn't trust him yet, Coffeybro's our inside man!

The "WOY Best Use Of A History Lesson" goes to Sea Ray with his Woody Fryman reference to Dave Williams. Extra Credit to both being lefthanded!

And Finally - The "Flagrant Thumb Your Nose At The Board" goes to Ron Madden's eloquent discussion of the flatulence that is Tony Womack! Ron, if you got negged, here's hopin this helps!

Thanks for coming this evening everyone! :wave:

[Reds1]

Can they pitch?

Because the point of the trade should have been to trade a bat for a good arm.



I've heard that argument ad infinitum in recent years. Ramon Ortiz was supposed to be an upgrade too. What the Reds did was replace Ortiz with a pitcher every bit as bad as Ortiz (though far less durable ... which ultimately might be a good thing).

No one wanted to trade for Casey and overpay him! Hindsight is 20-20 on Ramon. Its also frustrating when people knew that this guy was going to suck or this guy was going to be good. Williams will surprise and will be an upgrade and is an arm! There didn't seem to be much out there and remember we didn't have any money. We needed the money to keep who we had. Like it or not that's what is happening.

[M2]

No one wanted to trade for Casey and overpay him!

Fine, then trade someone else. I still see no pitching.


Hindsight is 20-20 on Ramon.

Speak for yourself, I spotted the stink on him well before the Reds dealt for him.


Its also frustrating when people knew that this guy was going to suck or this guy was going to be good.

What's frustrating about people being able to spot those things? What I find frustrating is that the Reds can't figure out what a good percentage of this board spotted without any trouble. It's not that hard to do.


Williams will surprise and will be an upgrade and is an arm!

Well now that you've used an exclamation mark it must be true. Forget about him being easy to hit with longball issues.

Why I bet the Bullwinkle's going to pull a rabbit out his hat too.


There didn't seem to be much out there and remember we didn't have any money. We needed the money to keep who we had. Like it or not that's what is happening.

That's just flat out wrong. The money saved by knocking Graves, Ortiz, Jiminez, Randa and Weber off the payroll more than covered the raises handed out to all of the team's arbitration-eligible players with a few million to spare. The idea that Casey's contract had to be cut to keep younger player may be the most often-repeated falacy swirling around the Reds this winter.

[Reds1]

That's just flat out wrong. The money saved by knocking Graves, Ortiz, Jiminez, Randa and Weber off the payroll more than covered the raises handed out to all of the team's arbitration-eligible players with a few million to spare.


You nailed it. A few million to spare. Wow!!!!!!!!!! In todays game a few million is enough to add pitching. 3 million can get a 1/3 of an Eric Milton these days. I think eventually this trade will give us the flexiblity to add someone, but there just isn't much out there now. We need to get younger and we needed to see if Wily Mo is the guy. I guess the Reds new FO knows nothing about baseball. The new owner blessed the trade and he knows more about baseball then you or I. There must be something to this. Just my 2 cents!

[M2]

You nailed it. A few million to spare. Wow!!!!!!!!!! In todays game a few million is enough to add pitching.

And the quality pitching they added is exactly who? I'm all for cutting payroll to add needed pitching. Casey wasn't that big a cut and the pitching wasn't added.


3 million can get a 1/3 of an Eric Milton these days.

Better to have spent $0 on 0/3 of an Eric Milton. Meanwhile the best pitchers in the Reds rotation didn't cost much when the team found them.


I think eventually this trade will give us the flexiblity to add someone, but there just isn't much out there now.

Yeah, it's always the next deal. Couldn't possibly add pitching during the winter. Meanwhile the Milwaukee Brewers traded Lyle Overbay, who is no better than Sean Casey, for two arms and an OF.


We need to get younger and we needed to see if Wily Mo is the guy.

The team needs to not be one of the worst pitching clubs ever. That's what it needs.


I guess the Reds new FO knows nothing about baseball.

The one run by Dan O'Brien sure as shooting didn't.


The new owner blessed the trade and he knows more about baseball then you or I.

I don't know what Bob Castellini knows about baseball. If he thinks Dave Williams is a good pitcher, then he's got a lot to learn.

Though if you're confident he knows more about baseball than you, I'll take your word for it.


There must be something to this. Just my 2 cents!

Something to what? That doesn't even make sense.

[ochre]

Trading Casey for Williams before last season would have been a salary dump. Trading him this offseason for Williams was Dan O'Brien pulling across the finish line at Daytona, thinking he had won, while he was still 2 laps down.

[Doc. Scott]

The Baseball Prospectus annual pointed out the exact thing that many of us have said from the minute the Casey-Williams deal was made: that O'Brien should have dumped Casey after his excellent 2004 but was either too chicken or just not too sharp.

[Ron Madden]

Time to pass out the Heathies! This year's award winning award show where you, the loyal redszone.com readers and posters, are rewarded for your efforts on posting during a meaningless spring training game! Time's a wastin' - let's roll!

The first award for the "Old Style Harry Carey Fastest Play-By-Play Poster" is given to membengal! His diligence is worth noting, even on 10-3 blowout! Tip an Old Style with Harry! Congrats!

The award for the "Pepsi Scoreboard Stumper" goes to Flyer85 for his question that Twins announcers asked about the three worst Reds defenders! Thanks for the trivia question Flyer - and hey, I'm pulling for ya! :thumbup:

The award for "Best Insider Tip" goes to CoffeyBro who spoke to his brother's wife hoping he would pitch the 9th. Either way you look at, whether Narron's saving him for a game or doesn't trust him yet, Coffeybro's our inside man!

The "WOY Best Use Of A History Lesson" goes to Sea Ray with his Woody Fryman reference to Dave Williams. Extra Credit to both being lefthanded!

And Finally - The "Flagrant Thumb Your Nose At The Board" goes to Ron Madden's eloquent discussion of the flatulence that is Tony Womack! Ron, if you got negged, here's hopin this helps!

Thanks for coming this evening everyone! :wave:

I had no intention of "Thumbing My Nose At The Board".

Sorry if anyone took that way.

I only tried to post an honest opinion. I know there are many fans that may disagree with my oppinion and that is all well and good.

There are also some fans that agree it's foolish to depend on old guys with very little range to play middle infield positions.

The mistake is compounded when these old vets are penciled into the top of the line up getting more ABs than more productive hitters.

Thats what I believe. I can't help it. Maybe you can post something to change my mind, I'll listen. ;)