Merged: Reds Fans Slow In Returning to Ballpark / What is up With Our Fans?

[BoCcc2832]

Column by The Post's Lonnie Wheeler

A caller on the radio the other night said he could understand why the Reds didn't draw so well over the weekend because, after all, there were select volleyball tournaments going on and confirmations and proms and whatnot. There were also track meets and high school baseball games and high school softball games and Knothole games and select soccer games and AAU basketball games and tennis matches and choral contests and spring weddings and yards to mow and boats to crank up and what, do you think dinner cooks itself?

Bear in mind, also, that sports and church and dancing and singing and marrying and grass and outdoor recreation are all unique to Cincinnati. They obviously don't have those things in Milwaukee, where the Reds played on an April weekend with nothing in particular at stake and drew an average of 31,589 patrons, and certainly not in St. Louis, where, in the brand newest Busch Stadium, their games were seen by sold-out houses of 40,000 and something.

But ours is an unusually distracted city, which apparently is why the Reds came home to play Houston in a series that would decide first place and only 24,873 were interested enough to show up on Saturday and 22,814 on Sunday. Friday was better, nearly 10,000 sunshiny souls walking up to swell the audience to 32,089. That was the night the home team beat Roy Oswalt for the first time ever and took over the division lead and set up what figured to be a whopping weekend.

There was also the NFL draft on Saturday, and maybe the sports fans who don't have kids playing one thing or another all over town were watching it, Marvin Lewis' team being the rage and all. But the Bengals' first pick didn't come until after the Reds had beaten the Astros again. And what was the excuse for Sunday?

Was it the gray sky? Must we have perfect weather to take in a ballgame around here?

And why were there only 20,900 at Great American Ball Park to watch Bronson Arroyo daub and stroke another compelling canvas Monday night against St. Louis, the regional rival and arch-exposer that came to town tied with the Reds for first place? Tuesday's afternoon crowd of 25,127 was businesslike, as far as that goes, but not of Cardinal proportions - not the type of gathering that should have witnessed a ninth-inning, statement-making, 3-2 victory over the division bully, completing a brief but heady homestand that kept the Reds in first place all by themselves, and with the best record in baseball.

This is not to disparage any Cincinnatian who opted for other pursuits over those five days of big-league drama. Having a life is a fine thing. What's more, it isn't the fans' job to get the stadium; it's the ballclub's to see that they do.

But one can only wonder what more the current Reds can offer their constituency. They just completed the best April in team history. They have underdogged their way to the top of the NL Central. They have put forward a pop star in Arroyo, a sensation in Brandon Phillips and a young stalwart in Edwin Encarnacion. They have hit far, run fast and pitched better. Under owner Bob Castellini, general manager Wayne Krivsky and manager Jerry Narron, they have made the most of the right moves, all the while demonstrating a refreshingly earnest competitiveness.

Is it disapproval over the trade of Sean Casey? Is it the slow reconstruction of a fan base broken down by the insipid seasons under the previous ownership? Is it ordinary Cincinnati skepticism? Is it simply spring?

"You've got to give the fans a chance," Castellini said Tuesday after the two-game sweep of the team he partially owned before he bought the local one. "This is early in the season and people haven't quite gotten into believing yet. We just have to make believers out of everybody.

"These fans have had five straight years of losing seasons, and it's going to take a while to make them have confidence in us. But I just know that if we execute, it will happen. I've lived here all my life, and Cincinnati folks are as loyal as they can be. Once they're tuned in, they're all over it."

Traditionally, the Reds' hometown requires its team to hold its own until school is out. It's curious as to why this is the case here and not in other major-league cities. But it is, and exceptions, apparently, are hard to come by.

The coinciding commentary is that Cincinnati proper is not and never really has been a come-to-the-ballpark kind of town. Since the days of the Big Red Machine, if not before, the Reds have been heavily dependent on highway visitors from about four states and a hundred miles or more away. Those folks plan their journeys in advance, and for stretches when school is not a factor. They also use a lot of gas, the price of which is at present daunting.

In light of all that, this season's modest attendance is not really surprising. It's running nearly 1,000 ahead of last year's average for 13 dates.

But last year, it didn't matter much. By this time, 2005, the Reds had made it clear that they would not be party to the pennant race.

This year, it could matter. The Reds have given early indications that they can compete with the Astros and Cardinals on the field; but can they do it in the stands? Can they do it in the front office? At the trading deadline? It all works together.

Castellini, of course, is quite familiar with the St. Louis front office. He was part of it. Cardinals owner Bill DeWitt - whose father was a Reds general manager - lives in Cincinnati and watched Monday night's game in Castellini's private box. Cardinals president Mark Lamping "is maybe the best in the business," in Castellini's opinion. "When we grow up, we want to be like him."

Informed by the St. Louis model, Castellini promptly separated the Reds' business and baseball sides. The standings now show that the baseball side is catching up. But it's not likely to maintain that pace unless business picks up alongside it.

"I get the baseball guys together with John Allen's (business) team," said the new Cincinnati owner, "and I say, 'Look, if you don't make the money, they can't spend the money.' If you can't create the interest and get folks in the ballpark and execute on the field, you're not going to have the money to better the team. Everybody understands that."

Even the fans?

[TOBTTReds]

Where were those people who bought tickets in Milwaukee??? I think one game was a sellout bc of a promotion. Other than that the whole stadium was empty.

[redsmetz]

I was just talking to a guy at work about this. I'd love to see stats for the Reds' attendance in the months of April and May for the last several years.

I think part of what takes place here is that since we are (or should be) a regional draw, attendance doesn't pick up until school is out. I have no idea if the attendance history bears this out, but it seems logical to me.

One thing I've been glad to see is the promotion the Reds are doing with Columbus (half price days). Besides the monumental neglect of the scouting department under Marge Schott, another big mistake was neglecting the Reds county, the region we have traditionally drawn from. And she allowed it to happen right as the Indians were beginning their rise. We lost alot of the state of Ohio to Cleveland during that time. I hope they'll be doing the same for other areas as well.

Anyone have attendance statistics in past years?

[westofyou]

I was just talking to a guy at work about this. I'd love to see stats for the Reds' attendance in the months of April and May for the last several years.

I think part of what takes place here is that since we are (or should be) a regional draw, attendance doesn't pick up until school is out. I have no idea if the attendance history bears this out, but it seems logical to me.

One thing I've been glad to see is the promotion the Reds are doing with Columbus (half price days). Besides the monumental neglect of the scouting department under Marge Schott, another big mistake was neglecting the Reds county, the region we have traditionally drawn from. And she allowed it to happen right as the Indians were beginning their rise. We lost alot of the state of Ohio to Cleveland during that time. I hope they'll be doing the same for other areas as well.

Anyone have attendance statistics in past years?

You could cherry pick them by boxscore here

http://www.retrosheet.org/

As for historically here's some more on that, but I believe that Marge Schott blew it too, the Reds had teh horses to go superstation back then, Marge made sure that that direction would never be taken.

Reds Attendance - A Review (http://baseballminutia.com/)

[Phhhl]

The Reds are doing everything they can, from ownership to the players on the field. But, there needs to be some stinking patience. We're trying to undue a decade of futility here, and people aren't idiots. As good as April was, fans have seen the club sprint out of the gate and keel over dead coming down the stretch before.

People are talking about it. The city is buzzing. Give it a little more time. Don't expect people to be lemmings.

[Falls City Beer]

People are talking about it. The city is buzzing. Give it a little more time. Don't expect people to be lemmings.

Well said. And they shouldn't be lemmings. I'd be disappointed if they came back to this franchise in droves.

My stipulation for coming to town is a winning record post All-Star Break. If not, I make other plans.

[registerthis]

People are talking about it. The city is buzzing. Give it a little more time. Don't expect people to be lemmings.

Yep. Years of apathy won't be corrected in one month. By the same token, as I said in another thread last week or so, using proms and high school ballgames as an excuse is baloney. Like Lonnie mentions, those kinds of things occur in every other city with an MLB team. So the Reds lagging attendance can't be blamed on Jimmy's parents wanting to see him off to the prom.

[cumberlandreds]

Since 1995 the Reds have only had two winning seasons (1999 & 2000) and one .500 season (1996). Add 1994 strike and you got the formula for fan apathy. This new Reds managment team really needs to take a hard look at what needs to be done to make this franchise a steady contender like the A's. I believe they are and will do that. If they don't though, they will destroy the fan base and Reds will be with the likes of the Royals and Pirates very soon. They uncomfortably close that already.

[BCubb2003]

The big fan draw doesn't really happen until the season after a postseason appearance, when the coolness factor kicks in and the casual fans are wearing their Reds gear in public. Even then, there's a challenge in replacing five seasons of disappointment with one winning record. The Reds do sometimes have a big walk-up crowd when there's a big game, but the point about the road trips from Reds country is a good one. You can't really flip the switch and say, "They took 2 out of 3 from Houston, so there ought to be 10,000 more fans in the stands tomorrow night." The winning ways and the happy cool buzz factor have to take hold over time.

[Wheelhouse]

This is a wake-up call to John Allen--if the Reds are in it mid-June, fans better start coming to the ballpark or he's gonna get the pink slip

[top6]

Comparing us unfavorably in this regard to Milwaukee is stupid. I don't know why they had 40K for one game, but their average attendances is below ours this year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance

We are a small market. 20K for April isn't that bad.

Also, don't expect the attendance to get much better in 2006. It continued to be bad in 1999, even though by the end of the year the Reds were one of the most exciting teams in baseball. The general consensus then was that a spike in attendance caused by winning would be felt more the next year. (And attendance did go way up the next year - but obviously that was Griffey's first year, so it's hard to tell what effect 1999 had.)

[BCubb2003]

Comparing us unfavorably in this regard to Milwaukee is stupid. I don't know why they had 40K for one game, but their average attendances is below ours this year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance



Yeah, what's with Cleveland's attendance? It's hardly more than Cincinnati's at the moment.

[Gainesville Red]

If they would send a limo with plenty of beer, and maybe a TV or something (it's a long ride), tickets to the games, and pay UF to just give me a diploma, I'd come to all the games. Otherwise, I'm afraid I just can't make the trip. Sorry.

[FeartheEars]

I for one can't wait to get home from college so I can start heading out to the games. I am going to be gone this summer but I am home for May so I will be heading out to a couple games this next week against the Nationals and Phillies. Its been rough with the Reds doing so well and only getting to catch the games when they play the Cubs or luck into an ESPN game. If the Reds stay in it until June the fans will come out. The Friday walkup sales are a great indicator that there is an interest out there.

[redsmetz]

You could cherry pick them by boxscore here

http://www.retrosheet.org/

Here's a couple of dates I did cherry pick:


Monday May 3, 1999 v. Arizona, Attendance 13,943 (Note Reds were last in NL Central at that point)


Friday May 5, 2000 v. St. Louis, Attendance 42,126 (we're were 2nd behind St. Louis at that point)

Since that was a Friday game, I picked the next weeknight game at home


Tuesday, May 9, 2000 v. San Diego, Attendance 22,435 (still in 2nd at that point)



Monday, May 1, 2002 v. Milwaukee, Attendance 12,867 (Reds were in 1st place at that point)


Not sure what conclusions to draw. Perhaps we are all still getting used to the possibility of winning after so many dismal seasons.

[RBA]

I heard at least 2 callers to WLW say they were scared of getting killed at or near the ballpark. I found that hard to belive, but they said it. Are people that scared in Cincinnati? What's the mindset of a person like this?

On my 2 visits, I found Cincinnati to be very nice and I didn't see anything to fear. Now the Newport Travelodge, that's a different story. ;)

[RedFanAlways1966]

2004
Apr. (9G) >> 236,227 -or- 26,247/game
May (16G) >> 407,496 -or- 25,469/game

2005
Apr. (10G) >> 249,368 -or- 24,937/game
May (19G) >> 431,025 -or- 22,686/game


* Totals for Apr. & May in the last two years = 24,521/game
* Avg. per game this year so far (14G) = 23,146


I guess the writers have to find something to complain about since the REDS are in 1st place. :bang:

[BuckWoody]

I heard at least 2 callers to WLW say they were scared of getting killed at or near the ballpark. I found that hard to belive, but they said it. Are people that scared in Cincinnati? What's the mindset of a person like this?

On my 2 visits, I found Cincinnati to be very nice and I didn't see anything to fear. Now the Newport Travelodge, that's a different story. ;)
The Two Angry Guys were discussing this on 1360/980 this morning too. Not sure why people would feel unsafe around the ballpark area. Does anyone on here have any stories that may shed some light on why some feel like this?

I can understand being afraid of getting shot by a rapper on I-75 going to the game but not once you're at the park. ;)

[vaticanplum]

Everything you guys say about the fans jumping on the bandwagon etc. made perfect sense to me until I read in another thread recently that you can to go a game at GABP for four or five dollars. 4 or 5 bucks for professional baseball. As far as I'm concerned that place should be sold out every night. Cincinnati is a fine city with plenty to do, but it's not like there is an overwhelming number of choices on any given night.

[Chip R]

Everything you guys say about the fans jumping on the bandwagon etc. made perfect sense to me until I read in another thread recently that you can to go a game at GABP for four or five dollars. 4 or 5 bucks for professional baseball. As far as I'm concerned that place should be sold out every night. Cincinnati is a fine city with plenty to do, but it's not like there is an overwhelming number of choices on any given night.

But there are only so many seats that are sold at that price and those are only available on game day or unless the rest of seats are sold out in advance. Obviously most of the seats at GAB are cheaper than they are at Wrigley or even the Cell but before people here shell out $20-30 for tickets, they would like to see a decent team out there. It's hard faulting people for thinking this year's team is fool's gold. They have seen these fast starts before only to see the team go belly up once June and July come around. Short of having bobblehead night for evey home game in April and May, there aren't going to be sellouts here. Even during the height of the BRM, the fans didn't exactly come out to the park in droves during April and May.

RBA, I heard the same show and if that guy wasn't a plant, he was just an idiot. I believe Tracy said later that there had been no shootings down by the ballpark ever since they built Riverfront. I don't know how accurate that is but most of the bad stuff goes on way north of the stadium(s).

I wonder if giving away $10 vouchers for gas a few times this summer would be a good promotion. It would be a nice goodwill gesture.

[pedro]

I suspect the only people getting murdered at the GABP are the pitchers.

[Jpup]

The Two Angry Guys were discussing this on 1360/980 this morning too. Not sure why people would feel unsafe around the ballpark area. Does anyone on here have any stories that may shed some light on why some feel like this?

I can understand being afraid of getting shot by a rapper on I-75 going to the game but not once you're at the park. ;)

it doesn't feel too safe walking across the bridge back to KY when you have a bunch of homeless guys begging for money at 11:00 at night.

[westofyou]

Personally I fear the homeless less than 4/5ths of the rest of the planet.

[Gainesville Red]

On my two trips to Cincinnati I've never felt threatened or anything like that. All cities, or towns for that matter have parts of town that aren't as freindly as others, but I don't think by the ballpark in Cincinnati is that bad at all. The caller should visit Detroit's stadium. Isn't their stadium in a rough part of town?

[westofyou]

The caller should visit Detroit's stadium. Isn't their stadium in a rough part of town?

Yep, we used to go there in the late 60's and early 70's.... compared to that the GAB is the Kenwood Mall

[RedFanAlways1966]

The caller should visit Detroit's stadium. Isn't their stadium in a rough part of town?

Isn't Camden Yards in a very rough part of Baltiomore as well?

[Cyclone792]

Everything you guys say about the fans jumping on the bandwagon etc. made perfect sense to me until I read in another thread recently that you can to go a game at GABP for four or five dollars. 4 or 5 bucks for professional baseball. As far as I'm concerned that place should be sold out every night. Cincinnati is a fine city with plenty to do, but it's not like there is an overwhelming number of choices on any given night.

I'll try to go back to every Reds home game I've been to and attempt to remember what I paid for tickets:

Tuesday, May 2nd: Free tickets courtesy of a friend who got four tickets from his employer.
Monday, May 1st: Group of six of us walked up and all bought $5 seats.
Friday, April 28th: Group of a dozen of us took advantage of college night (half price seats if purchased before game day). We sat about seven or eight rows behind the ball boy down the right field line, and we paid $15 each for those seats which are regularly $30.
Monday, April 17th: A buddy and I each walked up and bought $5 seats. We then met up with other friends we knew already at the park, maybe a half dozen or so, and they had all walked up and bought $5 seats.
Sunday, April 9th: Group of about 10 of us took advantage of half price Bleacher Day and paid $4 for Bleacher seats.
Friday, April 7th: Group of a half dozen of us took advantage of college night (half price seats if purchased in advance). Our tickets were in the lower level section of left field, circa four or five rows up, and we paid $8 each for those seats which are regularly $18.
Thursday, April 6th: Free tickets courtesy of my mom's employer who picked up a pair of tickets that my dad and I used.
Wednesday, April 5th: A buddy and I each walked up and bought $5 seats. We then met up with two other friends who did the same.

So there you go, I've been to eight games so far this season. In two games I had free tickets. Three other games we walked up and purchased $5 seats about a half hour before the game started. Three more games we took advantage of ticket promotions (two college nights and one Bleacher Day). And FWIW, I've sat in the lower level for all eight games, even the games where we walked up and purchased $5 seats cause there's no way in heck I'm actually sitting in those seats.

In the six games where I bought tickets, I've spent a total of $42, good for an average of $7 per ticket (I'm excluding the two games where I had free tickets). Also since I'm a longtime resident of Cincinnati, I know where the cheap/free parking is, unless we have three or four people in the car where we don't care to split up the cost to park in a garage or lot next to the stadium. If I had to guess, I've probably spent ~$15 total for all games on parking so far this season.

If somebody likes to watch Major League Baseball very cheaply, Cincinnati is the place for it.

BTW, another sidenote, anybody claiming the area surrounding the park is dangerous isn't exactly being truthful. Downtown Cincinnati doesn't get dangerous until you're about 10-15 blocks north of the river (it may even be farther north), and the park nearly sits right on the river.

[registerthis]

Isn't Camden Yards in a very rough part of Baltiomore as well?

Nah. It used to be, but "development happened."

there's some scary neighborhoods a few blocks away, but Camden itself is fine.

[Jpup]

Personally I fear the homeless less than 4/5ths of the rest of the planet.

I didn't say that I feared the homeless, but I do notice that my g/f appears to clutch my arm tighter when we are walking back. People from rural areas aren't used to that. just my 2 cents.

I guess that could be solved by parking closer to the ballpark.

[Matt700wlw]

The previous ownership/management blamed the fans lack of attendance for not competing and slashing of payroll.

This ownership believes a winning product brings in the fans, and they will continue to build a winning contender. This ownership understands why some people are a little hesitant......we've been down this road before.

This new ownership gets it.

[Chip R]

I didn't say that I feared the homeless, but I do notice that my g/f appears to clutch my arm tighter when we are walking back.

You say that like it's a bad thing. :evil:

[Cyclone792]

I didn't say that I feared the homeless, but I do notice that my g/f appears to clutch my arm tighter when we are walking back. People from rural areas aren't used to that. just my 2 cents.

I guess that could be solved by parking closer to the ballpark.

Where are you parking at? Only reason I asked is because the homeless near the ballpark don't do anything more than sit on the sidewalk holding up a sign. They might verbally ask for a bit of money, but that's about it. If you don't want to be bothered by them, just walk by and ignore them. They won't do anything to you guys.

Now if you're 10 blocks north and closer to OTR, then the homeless and anybody else on the street could hound you quite a bit. But if all you're doing is going to the game then you have no reason to be anywhere remotely close to those areas.

EDIT: Just read that you're parking in Kentucky and walking across the bridge. Where are you parking at in Kentucky and which bridge are you walking across?

[macro]

Since 1995 the Reds have only had two winning seasons (1999 & 2000) and one .500 season (1996).

Don't forget that they have only two postseason appearances since 1979. Of the franchises that were in existence in 1979, only the Expos/Nationals have fewer.

[westofyou]

I didn't say that I feared the homeless, but I do notice that my g/f appears to clutch my arm tighter when we are walking back. People from rural areas aren't used to that. just my 2 cents.

I guess that could be solved by parking closer to the ballpark.
No I get the drift, I used to go to downtown San Francisco and Oakland, alone and with the wife... they are two diffrerent moments.

[pedro]

The previous ownership/management blamed the fans lack of attendance for not competing and slashing of payroll.

This ownership believes a winning product brings in the fans, and they will continue to build a winning contender. This ownership understands why some people are a little hesitant......we've been down this road before.

This new ownership gets it.

I agree. No more of the brilliant marketing plan of blaming the fans for the teams budgetary contraints.

[redsmetz]

it doesn't feel too safe walking across the bridge back to KY when you have a bunch of homeless guys begging for money at 11:00 at night.

Have you ever had any of those homeless guys act aggressively? I never have. I once had a fellow somewhere (not by the stadium) get a little too close into my comfort zone. I immediately told him to back up and give me some space.

Now, like ANY city, folks need to use caution at night and in isolated places. One should never be off alone in many, many cities at certain times. I do know of a recent incident where two young guys I know where mugged in Sawyer Point, but it was around 11:30 at night (not a game night) and the park was deserted, which it wouldn't be on an event night.

When my wife worked in a school in Northern Kentucky she couldn't believe how many of her students had never been to the zoo and when she mentioned she lived in Cincinnat they said that's where the criminals are. Sheesh. People in the suburbs at times live in fear of the city and they lose out on lots of great things in Cincinnati.

I've lived in a neighborhood in the city near U.C. and raised my kids here. It's not without problems, but I love the viewpoint growing up in an urban setting has given my kids. LOL - when my oldest went to school in Dayton, one of her friends from Sharonville (a northern Cincy suburb for your out of towners) was convinced that she'd grown up "downtown".

[redsmetz]

Isn't Camden Yards in a very rough part of Baltiomore as well?

We just went to Camden and it didn't seem like a rough part of town. It's right across from the downtown district (which on Easter Sunday seemed as dead as downtown Cincinnati, if not deader). Across from the park was a restaurant and foodstand area and you were permitted to buy stuff there and take it into the ballpark. That was great!

Seeing that made me realize that we lose an awful lot having a highway and the river box us in.

[KronoRed]

I've never felt scared near GAB, now up near 7th street yes, but I don't go up there unless dragged by others :D

[indyred]

Okay what is OTR.........I'm new to this part of Country and have no idea there is some shaddy places somewhat near GAB..........went to 1 game last year.......though the area seemed fine...........i did notice a couple homless guys leaving the park asking for money, that was about it.........The Camden yards area is nice.........i've heard the bad part is about 5-6 blocks away from the stadium.......will be there for the Phillies on the 13th for the Dunn figure....I'm thinking that night it will be pretty full.......

[BCubb2003]

I've never had a problem, even after night games. It's probably more of a perception fueled by Cincinnati's past social problems. And few downtowns actually have that going out, have a good time with friends, maybe take in a ballgame block party vibe anyway. The area around the ballpark is still kind of sparse.

If: Downtown Cincinnati had a large young going out population, and the ballpark area was developed for that in a casual walk up to the ballpark gates kind of feel, and the Reds had a couple of postseason appearances under their belts, then things would be jumping.


If the bulk of your fan base is driving the kids from Huntington or Lexington, planning the parking and the money for dinner, and getting back home late, that's going to be a challenge, especially during the school year.

St. Louis supposedly has a great downtown for ballgames. Is that true? And can Castellini bring a little of that magic along?

[redsmetz]

The previous ownership/management blamed the fans lack of attendance for not competing and slashing of payroll.

This ownership believes a winning product brings in the fans, and they will continue to build a winning contender. This ownership understands why some people are a little hesitant......we've been down this road before.

This new ownership gets it.

Absolutely! I was very impressed with Castellini's comments. He'll get this puppy moving.

[Chip R]

Okay what is OTR.........I'm new to this part of Country and have no idea there is some shaddy places somewhat near GAB..........went to 1 game last year.......though the area seemed fine...........i did notice a couple homless guys leaving the park asking for money, that was about it.........The Camden yards area is nice.........i've heard the bad part is about 5-6 blocks away from the stadium.......will be there for the Phillies on the 13th for the Dunn figure....I'm thinking that night it will be pretty full.......

OTR is Over The Rhine. It's a neighborhood - emphasis on the "hood" - north of Central Parkway that is one of the bad areas of town.

[redsmetz]

Okay what is OTR.........I'm new to this part of Country and have no idea there is some shaddy places somewhat near GAB..........went to 1 game last year.......though the area seemed fine...........i did notice a couple homless guys leaving the park asking for money, that was about it.........The Camden yards area is nice.........i've heard the bad part is about 5-6 blocks away from the stadium.......will be there for the Phillies on the 13th for the Dunn figure....I'm thinking that night it will be pretty full.......

OTR is Over The Rhine, the neighborhood north of downtown, above Central Parkway, at about what would be 11th or 12th Street. It's been rough for years and has been getting rougher. I hope we can turn it around as a city because it's got lots of beautiful places and the folks who actually live there are, overall, some decent folks, many down on their luck, but still decent folks.

[redsmetz]

St. Louis supposedly has a great downtown for ballgames.

I don't know about the new park in St. Louis, but it was always clear to me the vast difference not being on an island makes for a ballpark. It opened everywhere and emptied fast, whereas Riverfront funnelled and jammed up and, again, we have that highway cutting everything off, so it really cuts down on what's possible.

[westofyou]

Okay what is OTR.........Over the Rhine, "Slums" former german part of town, the reason the Reds came about and left the NL in the 1800's had a lot to do with the culture of the OTR inhabitats. At one time Vine street boasted over 100 bars winding up the hill, 20 beers for a buck, the AL was more or less formed in a bar in the OTR.

[Cyclone792]

Okay what is OTR.........I'm new to this part of Country and have no idea there is some shaddy places somewhat near GAB..........went to 1 game last year.......though the area seemed fine...........i did notice a couple homless guys leaving the park asking for money, that was about it.........The Camden yards area is nice.........i've heard the bad part is about 5-6 blocks away from the stadium.......will be there for the Phillies on the 13th for the Dunn figure....I'm thinking that night it will be pretty full.......

Chip and redsmetz already posted a small description so this should help you with figuring out where Over-the-Rhine is:

http://www.gototown.com/images/Downtown_Cincinnati_Map.pdf

[KronoRed]

Don't forget that nice big empty ditch next door to the park that the city/county won't redevelop.

[redsmetz]

Don't forget that nice big empty ditch next door to the park that the city/county won't redevelop.

Not to turn this political, but I'm looking forward to someone showing Phil Heimlich the door since he's decided that he's The Decider for Cincinnati and see if we can't get a genuine working arrangement between the two governmental bodies.

[westofyou]

Not to turn this political, but I'm looking forward to someone showing Phil Heimlich the door since he's decided that he's The Decider for Cincinnati and see if we can't get a genuine working arrangement between the two governmental bodies.
I went to a party at his house back in the 80's... his daughters I assume.

[paintmered]

Have you ever had any of those homeless guys act aggressively? I never have. I once had a fellow somewhere (not by the stadium) get a little too close into my comfort zone. I immediately told him to back up and give me some space.

Now, like ANY city, folks need to use caution at night and in isolated places. One should never be off alone in many, many cities at certain times. I do know of a recent incident where two young guys I know where mugged in Sawyer Point, but it was around 11:30 at night (not a game night) and the park was deserted, which it wouldn't be on an event night.

When my wife worked in a school in Northern Kentucky she couldn't believe how many of her students had never been to the zoo and when she mentioned she lived in Cincinnat they said that's where the criminals are. Sheesh. People in the suburbs at times live in fear of the city and they lose out on lots of great things in Cincinnati.

I've lived in a neighborhood in the city near U.C. and raised my kids here. It's not without problems, but I love the viewpoint growing up in an urban setting has given my kids. LOL - when my oldest went to school in Dayton, one of her friends from Sharonville (a northern Cincy suburb for your out of towners) was convinced that she'd grown up "downtown".

If you are thinking of the same two guys (and there's a good chance of that) I live with one of them.

One of them is 6'6" and the other is a professional athlete. So it can happen to anyone in the right circumstance.

[indyred]

thanks for info guys on the OTR ........

[kxblue]

The Brewers have half-price tickets during April and May until school is out.

I really have to wonder why their attendance is so high with half-price tickets. If I could sit in a box for 20 bucks I would go more often.

[joeberk]

Must we have perfect weather to take in a ballgame around here?

Since the days of the Big Red Machine, if not before, the Reds have been heavily dependent on highway visitors from about four states and a hundred miles or more away. Those folks plan their journeys in advance, and for stretches when school is not a factor. They also use a lot of gas, the price of which is at present daunting.

I'm guilty of both of the above emotions. I've got a four hour drive roundtrip. If I'm going to head down to GABP, not only do I have to make time, but the weather needs to be decent. I think that's fair and I don't think I'm less of a fan because of it.

I've also got memories of $1600 worth of damage when I got caught in a hailstorm around the IND-OH state line on I-74 while on my way to a 2002 game. That's the last time I bought tickets in advance to a Reds game.

Hopefully I'll catch one of the games on the upcoming homestead. With any luck, Arroyo will be on the mound.

[Yachtzee]

I've never had a problem in downtown Cincinnati and I never understand why the folks on WLW are always talking about this fear of being killed downtown. From what I hear, you're fine as long as you are south of the Central Parkway(I think that's the name of it). I've parked on both sides of the river for games and never had a problem. The homeless people are *****cats compared to those in New York and Chicago, and even those folks are tame compared to the gypsy gangs you encounter in some of the major cities of Europe. I've felt safer going to games at GABP, Paul Brown Stadium and Riverfront than most other parks I've been to, including Wrigley, US Cellular, Tigers Stadium, Yankees Stadium, Cleveland Browns Stadium, and the Jake. I'd feel safer in downtown Cincinnati than I would in downtown Dayton, Toledo or Youngstown. I feel like the "danger" of Cincinnati is largely a creation of the talking heads on WLW.

[KYRed]

I'd feel safer in downtown Cincinnati than I would in downtown Dayton.

I have to agree somewhat. I'm currently here in Dayton and am dating someone who works at Cincy Children's and lives within walking distance of there, near MLK Blvd and UC's campus. It's given me some good perspective since I'm in Dayton during the week and spend most weekends down in Cincinnati. I honestly feel safer in most areas of Cincy than I do in certain areas of Dayton, despite the smaller size. Really though, it's just a matter of not pointlessly wandering around an area you are unfamiliar with at night that has few people around, no matter what city you're in.

And Dayton does have very safe areas as well. I actually live in the same apt. complex as most of the Dayton Dragons. I don't need a schedule to tell me when they are at home or on a roadtrip, just have to look across the hall!

[Ron Madden]

If the team is still playing well when the weather heats up more fans will be there.

Schott, Lindner, Bowden, Allen and O'Brien have done more harm to this franchise than the neighborhood or a few homeless folks could ever do.

Most of the voices heard on WLW should Always be taken with a grain of salt.

[Jpup]

Where are you parking at? Only reason I asked is because the homeless near the ballpark don't do anything more than sit on the sidewalk holding up a sign. They might verbally ask for a bit of money, but that's about it. If you don't want to be bothered by them, just walk by and ignore them. They won't do anything to you guys.

Now if you're 10 blocks north and closer to OTR, then the homeless and anybody else on the street could hound you quite a bit. But if all you're doing is going to the game then you have no reason to be anywhere remotely close to those areas.

EDIT: Just read that you're parking in Kentucky and walking across the bridge. Where are you parking at in Kentucky and which bridge are you walking across?

we walk across the "blue bridge", I don't know the name of it. We usually park in a parking complex just across the river in KY. It's great on a Sunday afternoon, but, like I said. It doesn't seem to safe at 11:00 at night.

It's probably just me.

Where is the best place to park, coming from KY?

[Deepred05]

I once went to a Raider game in Los Angeles, and I had to pay for car "protection" insurance. (I think that was how they phrased it) I didn't care if the Bengals won or lost, I just wanted to get back to my car and see if it was still there!:D Thankfully it was.........

[BuckWoody]

I once went to a Raider game in Los Angeles, and I had to pay for car "protection" insurance. (I think that was how they phrased it) I didn't care if the Bengals won or lost, I just wanted to get back to my car and see if it was still there!:D Thankfully it was.........
My Dad has stories like that from the old Crosley Field days. You'd park on the street and some of the neighborhood kids would "watch your car" for a dollar. Dad said he always paid the dollar and his car was always fine when he got back. :)

[registerthis]

My Dad has stories like that from the old Crosley Field days. You'd park on the street and some of the neighborhood kids would "watch your car" for a dollar. Dad said he always paid the dollar and his car was always fine when he got back. :)

...until the kids take two bucks to look the other way when the car thieves come around. ;)

[westofyou]

My Dad has stories like that from the old Crosley Field days. You'd park on the street and some of the neighborhood kids would "watch your car" for a dollar. Dad said he always paid the dollar and his car was always fine when he got back. :)
My M-I-L remembers getting her tires slashed down at Crosley.

[vaticanplum]

Chip and redsmetz already posted a small description so this should help you with figuring out where Over-the-Rhine is:

http://www.gototown.com/images/Downtown_Cincinnati_Map.pdf

Both of the ballparks look so removed from everything there. Is that true or is it just the scale of the map?

edit: Oof, 700 posts, how little work I get done when the Reds are doing well.

[Yachtzee]

Both of the ballparks look so removed from everything there. Is that true or is it just the scale of the map?

edit: Oof, 700 posts, how little work I get done when the Reds are doing well.

It would look a lot better if they got around to putting something between PBS and GABP to go with the Underground RR Museum. I think the huge open area between the stadiums makes the Ft. Washington Way gap look bigger than it is. Turn the PBS Lot D into underground parking and get that Banks Project going and it will look pretty nice.

[BuckWoody]

My M-I-L remembers getting her tires slashed down at Crosley.
She must not have paid her dollar. ;)

[paintmered]

Eventually Cincinnati is going to have this beside the ballpark. I know phase I is completed but are they still building the tower (phase II)?

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/queencitysquare-1.jpg

[paintmered]

Sounds like Castellini is tired of having a giant mudpit next to GABP and is willing to do something about it.

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060504/NEWS01/605040333/1077


City, county bust deadlock
Joint committee to make plans for Banks
BY KIMBALL PERRY, MARLA MATZER ROSE AND DAN KLEPAL | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITERS

In a deal brokered by the Reds' new owners, Hamilton County and the city of Cincinnati agreed Wednesday to resolve their differences over the proposed $600 million Banks project.

The governments will create a new five-member entity that will make all major decisions on the stalled riverfront development.

The Banks Working Group will be led by Reds CEO Bob Castellini. The other members will be picked by:
ADVERTISEMENT

The county.

Mayor Mark Mallory.

The Cincinnati Center Development Corp., known as 3CDC. The private, nonprofit group is redeveloping Fountain Square and Over-the-Rhine.

Castellini, with approval of the county.

Group decisions, which must be unanimous, will include picking a developer. Decisions would need approval by City Council and the county commission.

"Now, we can finally count on a 50-acre mudhole becoming a world-class retail, office and residential community," commission president Phil Heimlich said.

Wednesday's deal was struck after 13 hours of intense negotiations in the past several days.

Heimlich joined Mallory and council members Chris Bortz and Jeff Berding. The sessions, at Great American Ball Park, were facilitated by Castellini and Tom Williams, both 3CDC board members and Reds owners.

Castellini was the only person named Wednesday to the five-member working group; the rest are expected to be named in coming days.

NO ONE TRAMPLED

"I think this is very close to what the city and the county were originally hoping for. No one is going to feel trampled," Bortz said following Wednesday's announcement at the ballpark, which is located across Main Street from the Banks site.

Among the key issues dividing the two governments were their intertwined land, air and development rights for the project, which will include a waterfront park and will be built up out of the Ohio River flood plain atop garages. Also disputed were a loan being sought from the state, parking garage revenues and the tens of millions in public revenue that the development is expected to generate.

One point left unclear after the announcement was whether the working group's meetings would be public. Mallory said after the news conference that he doesn't think the working group would be public, arguing that Ohio's open meetings law doesn't apply to the group because it will only make recommendations.

"It would be very, very difficult to make the kinds of decisions they'll make in an open process," he said. Among those decisions is how to spend about $100 million in tax dollars.

OPEN MEETINGS

But Enquirer editor and vice president Tom Callinan said it's vital for the meetings to be public.

"We're pleased the city and county made progress on this important development, but we'll insist that these meetings be public," he said. "They must be open because taxpayers are paying for it."

The county stunned city officials in June with the announcement that it was taking charge of moving the Banks project forward. A hoped-for deal with a consortium led by Covington-based Corporex Cos. fell apart in December, after which the county issued a general request for qualifications from developers in February.

The county faced steep hurdles to continuing the process without the cooperation of the city, including a city ordinance passed March 1 that would withhold needed financing and development rights if the city were not included in the oversight.

The county's selection of a developer has been on hold since early April as the two governments remained at odds.

Under the framework announced Wednesday, there is no specific timeframe for the selection of the master developer.

'THE ENEMY ... IS DELAY'

But it seemed likely that the group would work quickly.

"The enemy of this project is delay," Heimlich said. "Castellini and Williams would not tolerate delay. That was the point they drove home."

Delays potentially jeopardized tens of millions of dollars in financing the county believed it has in place to help pay for the Banks.

Heimlich said the working group would soon receive the recommendation of a four-person county advisory committee as to which company should be selected as the developer.

In addition, the working group will be responsible for developing the project's small- and minority-business inclusion plans.

Immediately following the news conference, City Council adopted a resolution supporting Wednesday's agreement.

Councilman Jeff Berding said the recent talks between the city and county were exactly what were needed to move the process forward.

'AVERT A TRAIN WRECK'

"I'd said to a number of people in the business community, 'If you want to avert a train wreck, you're going to have to get us in a room and work it out.' That's how everything on the riverfront has been worked out in the past," he said.

The agreement came a week after former Cincinnati mayors Bobbie Sterne and David Mann filed a lawsuit, asking a judge to force the county to live up to previous agreements with the city and work cooperatively to develop the Banks.

SUIT LIKELY TO BE DROPPED

"It's hard to believe that was merely a coincidence," lawyer Marc Mezibov said of the announcement, which accomplishes what the Sterne-Mann suit sought.

The deal means the suit likely will be withdrawn, he said.

[jocross]

One thing for me as well as many of my friends who go to school in Bloomington Indiana is the overall price of gas! I know that may sound like a cop-out for some, but it really does put a strain on college kids such as ourselves. The reds have always relied on the tri-state region for attendance, but when it cost upwards of 75 bucks for a trip from central Indiana to Cincy and back, you feel it for a few days afterwords in the pocketbook. I have a hunch this may continue for many travelers who have driven the 3 hour or more trip to catch a few games during the year in the past....o well, I guess first place may be worth it!

[vaticanplum]

Eventually Cincinnati is going to have this beside the ballpark. I know phase I is completed but are they still building the tower (phase II)?

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/queencitysquare-1.jpg

I'm blind but I don't see a ballpark here. Does that brick tower thing kind of to the right have something to do with it? Is the tower going to cut the ballpark out of the skyline?

Sorry, this must be frustrating for those of you who see the ballpark a lot -- I'm just very unfamiliar with the current Cincinnati downtown.

edit: I'm an idiot. It's that big thing on the left is it? I have one contact in by the way.

[paintmered]

I'm blind but I don't see a ballpark here. Does that brick tower thing kind of to the right have something to do with it? Is the tower going to cut the ballpark out of the skyline?

Sorry, this must be frustrating for those of you who see the ballpark a lot -- I'm just very unfamiliar with the current Cincinnati downtown.

edit: I'm an idiot. It's that big thing on the left is it? I have one contact in by the way.

The proposed tower is located on the other side of Ft. Washington Way. The ballpark lies between Ft. Washington Way and the River. You don't see the ballpark due to the perspective of the rendering and the fact it is blocked by US Bank Arena (just left of the bridge). USBA and GABP are connected.

[vaticanplum]

Thanks.

Does anyone know offhand of any websites that have good pictures, from multiple perspectives, of where GABP fits into the downtown?

[paintmered]

Here's one I found:

http://www.kodiakvideoproductions.com/Copy_of_cincinnati_aerial_opt.jpg

[REDREAD]

Everything you guys say about the fans jumping on the bandwagon etc. made perfect sense to me until I read in another thread recently that you can to go a game at GABP for four or five dollars. 4 or 5 bucks for professional baseball. As far as I'm concerned that place should be sold out every night..

Well, those $5 seats are the worse seats and they are limited. It's still a nice thing for the Reds to do though.

It's going to take time to undo the damage that Allen and Carl Lindner have done.
Even on this board, which is full of diehards, I don't see anyone truly believing that we are a contender this season. It's pretty much assumed that this fast start is a mirage.

I might see a game in the second half of the season, but I'm not buying tickets in advance and risking getting Dave Williams or Milton.

[redsmetz]

One thing for me as well as many of my friends who go to school in Bloomington Indiana is the overall price of gas! I know that may sound like a cop-out for some, but it really does put a strain on college kids such as ourselves. The reds have always relied on the tri-state region for attendance, but when it cost upwards of 75 bucks for a trip from central Indiana to Cincy and back, you feel it for a few days afterwords in the pocketbook. I have a hunch this may continue for many travelers who have driven the 3 hour or more trip to catch a few games during the year in the past....o well, I guess first place may be worth it!

I wonder if the Reds might consider looking into some buses for games from major areas. Do other teams have something like that. For example, maybe you start in Lima or Findlay and come down I-75 with stops at a few places. Same for the other corridors.

I know Cincinnati Metro used to run specials to the ballpark from various shopping areas.

[KittyDuran]

Well, those $5 seats are the worse seats and they are limited. It's still a nice thing for the Reds to do though.

It's going to take time to undo the damage that Allen and Carl Lindner have done.
Even on this board, which is full of diehards, I don't see anyone truly believing that we are a contender this season. It's pretty much assumed that this fast start is a mirage.

I might see a game in the second half of the season, but I'm not buying tickets in advance and risking getting Dave Williams or Milton.Hey! I think they're GREAT seats - esp. someone on a budget like me. :p:

[KittyDuran]

I wonder if the Reds might consider looking into some buses for games from major areas. Do other teams have something like that. For example, maybe you start in Lima or Findlay and come down I-75 with stops at a few places. Same for the other corridors.

I know Cincinnati Metro used to run specials to the ballpark from various shopping areas.The last time I remember the Metro doing that during the regular season was in 1999 - I parked and took the bus from Forest Park for the Cardinals series in September.

[indyred]

Is the US Bank Arena very nice inside..........is that used very often for events???

[Chip R]

The last time I remember the Metro doing that during the regular season was in 1999 - I parked and took the bus from Forest Park for the Cardinals series in September.

I'm not sure if they did it in 00 but I remember taking shuttles down from Western Hills Plaza for a few games in 99. I think I took it to the playoff game too, IIRC. It was a good idea but they probably couldn't justify the cost.

[RBA]

With Gas Prices skyrocketing, and it won't get any better, maybe Cinncinnati should look again at a subway system, light rail or a combination of both.

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway-c7.jpg

Cincinnati's Abandoned Subway
Introduction
Abandoned tunnels are often the object of urban legend, but Cincinnati is in fact the site of the country's largest abandoned subway tunnel. But "abandoned" is not quite the word, as construction slowed to a stop in 1925 before even half of the 16 mile line was completed. Seven miles between Cincinnati's central business district and the industrial suburb of Norwood were tunneled, bridged, or graded, but no track was laid and no subway cars were ordered. No passengers ever rode between the six stations that were built.

The incomplete Cincinnati line sat fallow through the Great Depression and WWII. Bridges, stations, and retaining walls along the surface stretches deteriorated to such an extent that a few items actually collapsed. Nearly everything above ground was bulldozed to make way for portions of I-75 and the Norwood Lateral in the 1950's and 1970's, respectively. The mute two mile tunnel that remains under Central Parkway is unknown to many Cincinnati natives, and what most who do know of it know consists largely of hearsay and speculation.

This page is the most comprehensive and most accurate source of information regarding the subway either on the web or in print. It is by far the most popular subject on www.cincinnati-transit.net, and tens of thousands have visited it since its appearance in 1999.


Subway F.A.Q.

1. Where is the subway?
The main subway tunnel runs under Central Parkway for two miles, between Walnut St. and an anonymous spot north of the Western Hills Viaduct. Three underground stations were built and still exist at Race St., Liberty St., and Brighton's Corner. An extension of this tunnel under Walnut St. south through downtown with a station at Fountain Square was planned but never built. Additionally, several miles of surface running line were graded and three of roughly a dozen planned above ground stations were built. Significant portions of today's I-75 and the Norwood Lateral follow the path of the line. A stretch of I-71 near the Dana Ave. interchange was built where the subway loop's eastern half was planned.


2. When was it constructed?
1920 through 1925. The $6 million bond issue in 1916 was exhausted in 1925, no further money was obtained, and construction never resumed.

3. Can the tunnel still be used?
Yes. It has been continuously maintained and will likely be usable for the next hundred years, if not longer. The 2002 "Metro Moves" sales tax would have funded a rail transit network that planned to use the tunnel, but it was defeated by a 2-1 public vote.


4. Can the subway be visited?
Yes. See http://www.cincinnatiadvance.com. I am in no way involved with that organization nor do I have anything to do with the tours. Do not email me about the tours -- I have never been on one and haven't been in the subway since 2002. No, I don't know when they're next one is.

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/subway.html

[KronoRed]

Spend money on mass transit?!?!

That's un-American!!! ;)

[KronoRed]

Sounds like Castellini is tired of having a giant mudpit next to GABP and is willing to do something about it.

The mudpit
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/Kronosb/stadiums.jpg

[redsmetz]

Spend money on mass transit?!?!

That's un-American!!! ;)

Before I posted my earlier note about tranportation to the ballpark, I found this link about one plan - http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/commuterrail.html - with one stop right at The Banks adjacent to the ballpark.

My daughter, as I've said, is living in DC where the transportation system is fabulous. She can take the subway to RFK easily. In fact, I first learned about our own subway which never was when the Enquirer ran a Washington Post article about it when folks in DC were dragging their feet on their system. People were saying no one would ever abandon a system started. Oh yeah? I still rue that decision 80 years ago.

[paintmered]

This is the proposed rail system in 2002 that failed miserably. I wonder how the vote would turn out today with gas prices as they are? It actually looks like a pretty comprehensive solution to me.

http://www.cincinnati-transit.net/zmap-commuterrail5.jpg

[BuckWoody]

I might see a game in the second half of the season, but I'm not buying tickets in advance and risking getting Dave Williams or Milton.
You can never tell. We had tickets to the afternoon game on Tuesday with Williams on the mound. I had resigned myself to the fact that we would have fun just being out of the office even if it was 6-0 after three. Lo and behold, Williams pitched a nice game and we got to see a walk off win. It doesn't get much better than that. :thumbup:

[redsmetz]

My Dad has stories like that from the old Crosley Field days. You'd park on the street and some of the neighborhood kids would "watch your car" for a dollar. Dad said he always paid the dollar and his car was always fine when he got back. :)

Dave Parker talked one time about doing that as a kid growing up in the West End.

[Chip R]

This is the proposed rail system in 2002 that failed miserably. I wonder how the vote would turn out today with gas prices as they are? It actually looks like a pretty comprehensive solution to me.



It would still fail. Light rail won't be cheap and it won't happen tomorrow.

[KronoRed]

That's why they need to just do it and not let short sighted voters have a say. :devil:

[919191]

I didn't say that I feared the homeless, but I do notice that my g/f appears to clutch my arm tighter when we are walking back. People from rural areas aren't used to that. just my 2 cents.

I guess that could be solved by parking closer to the ballpark.


I kind of understand that. A couple of years ago we stayed in a hotel across the river and walked across the bridge. We stayed after the game trying to get autographs for the kids, and as we approached the bridge, there were several people there hanging out. Now, there was noone else around except for them and me and my wife and our (then) 2 and 6 year old boys. Yeah, having my family there made me a bit nervous, but nothing happened, and I knew it wouldn't. I guess it just made me thnk I made a weong decision about the security of my family, and made me see we were vulnerable. If I had been by myself, i wouldn't have given it a swcond thought.

But I do not ever feel unsafe down there, aside for this lone moment.

[Dunner44]

Is the US Bank Arena very nice inside..........is that used very often for events???

The last time I was at USBank was for the 2004 A-10 tournament, and also for some Cincy Swarm games. Its nothing special, just the old Colliseum with a new name. Kind of dark, lots of soda and popcorn butter stains to stick to your feet, you know, the works. I love open air staidums so much more, but as domes go, it's clearly second tier. But, despite all that, its a fine venue, and it has decent amounts of seating. Had I been in town, I would have been back there for the A-10 tourney this year. Go Muskies!

[Cyclone792]

we walk across the "blue bridge", I don't know the name of it. We usually park in a parking complex just across the river in KY. It's great on a Sunday afternoon, but, like I said. It doesn't seem to safe at 11:00 at night.

It's probably just me.

Where is the best place to park, coming from KY?

Sounds like the Suspension Bridge, which dumps you into Covington. The only place in Covington I've ever walked around after dark is Mainstrasse, but that's a series of bars not really near where you'd park to go to the game.

As far as the best place to park, it's all subjective to what's most important to you: "feeling" safe, not wanting to walk far, cost, not wanting to be stuck in traffic, etc.

The Westin Garage on Vine between 4th and 5th (in Cincy, not Kentucky) is $1 to park there during night weekday games if you arrive after 5:30pm and all weekend games. I've never not felt safe walking to/from the park and the Westin Garage, and it's not a short walk per se, but if you're used to walking across one of the bridges it shouldn't be any longer than any place you'd park at in Kentucky. The downside to that garage - and any parking garage for a ballgame, really - is it's a pain in the rear to get out of once you're back in the car because everybody is trying to leave at once.

If you want a shorter walk and don't care about cost, there's at least three parking lots on East Pete Rose Way near Gameday Cafe, but expect to pay close to $10 to park in one of those. East Garage is in that area, and costs $12, but sometimes it is passes only, plus you have to deal with traffic getting out of the garage. There's also a very large lot on Mehring Way between GABP and Paul Brown Stadium that generally runs $10. There's yet another garage near/under the Underground Museum, and that runs $12, but the walk is not even two blocks to GABP.

I've also parked over in Newport at the Levee a few times, and when I know I'll end up at the Levee after the game I always elect to park over there.

[westofyou]

Cincinnati 21-12 .636 - 10-5 at home

5-9-06
Attendance: 16,716.
Weather: 74 degrees, cloudy.

[LincolnparkRed]

Cincinnati 21-12 .636 - 10-5 at home

5-9-06
Attendance: 16,716.
Weather: 74 degrees, cloudy.

Pretty sad even if it is the Nationals. I realize that I don't go to many games myself but it is more a matter of geography than anything else.

[TOBTTReds]

Cincinnati 21-12 .636 - 10-5 at home

5-9-06
Attendance: 16,716.
Weather: 74 degrees, cloudy.

Kid glove day too. Obviously there were many more there because they didn't pay, and that number is paid only. Do you think they gave out about 20,000 other tickets or so? It looked like there were about 30,000 there by the 4th and 5th innings.

I think it is ridiculous how many games are on TV. If today or tomorrow weren't on, I'd be down there for both. But right now, I just dont have the dough to be spending on parking, tickets, and a possible food or drink item. So I have no problem watching on TV...much cheaper!

[westofyou]

I think it is ridiculous how many games are on TV. There were more games on in the 70's then now.

[joeberk]

Sitting in Section 143 last night, I'd have figured more people than 16,716.

Sure didn't notice it was Kid Glove night either.

[KittyDuran]

Sitting in Section 143 last night, I'd have figured more people than 16,716.

Sure didn't notice it was Kid Glove night either.It was definitely more because IIRC the Reds don't count the vouchers in the total. So maybe about 23-25,000?

[westofyou]

It was definitely more because IIRC the Reds don't count the vouchers in the total. So maybe about 23-25,000?
a hair over 23K with 7K Kid Glove was what the tube said.. but it could have been 30K with 7K Kid glove.

[saboforthird]

I heard at least 2 callers to WLW say they were scared of getting killed at or near the ballpark. I found that hard to belive, but they said it. Are people that scared in Cincinnati? What's the mindset of a person like this?

On my 2 visits, I found Cincinnati to be very nice and I didn't see anything to fear. Now the Newport Travelodge, that's a different story. ;)

They may be talking about the traffic. My wife and I were up there last fall and the traffic was ATROCIOUS. Detours galore. :evil:

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I arrived last night at gametime and there were a ton of walk up's. All ticket booths had lines behind them.

I bought a pair of seats in 145 for $38 ($19 each). The ticket guy told me that all of the cheapest seats ($5) had been sold out. That's the first time
I've seen that, even at gametime. I'm surprised there could have only been 16k.

A couple of attractive young ladies then gave us their tickets behind homeplate as soon as my 5-year old son and I walked in. They said they were in large group and had no interest in returning to their seats. Unfortunately my son didn't get to see any fireworks and that one Guillen HR appeared to land exactly where our OF seats would have been (on the isle of 145).

Anyway, it was really nice of them and I thank them again if they happen to read this.

[TheBigLebowski]

We're 22-12 and in first place in our division, yet 56 people actually show up to watch tonight's game.

What the heck is going on????

We are a baseball town..and we are a fanbase that has not had a lot to cheer about in recent years. Looks like we've actually got a good product to put on the field this year, and no one can find the time to make it to the ballpark? This is an exciting team....a fan knows he or she is going to see a few balls leave the yard when we play...from our hitters' bats as well as our opponents, on most nights...why are fans not showing up?

I'd easily understand tonight's attendance if we were 12-22. Most people probably expected us to be 12-22. Of course, as well all know, the opposite is true. Sure..it's Wednesday, and our opponent was Washington, but I was shocked at the low number of bodies in the seats. Tonight's official attendance was 14,180. I'd be surprised if the true number was half of that.

I live down in Jacksonville, Florida. I was born in Cincy and all my family still lives there, but I moved down here when I was a kid - well before GAB was built...probably 6-8 years. I have yet to have the good fortune of actually seeing GAB in person. If I lived in Cincy, good team or bad, I'd be at the GAB every night possible to watch the Reds.

Sooo...Cincy residents...why has attendance been so bad? What is the general feeling in town towards the team?

[reds44]

Terrible weather tonight, so they have an excuse.

[flyer85]

fans are taking a more wait and see attitude than in 2004.

[TOBTTReds]

Terrible weather tonight, so they have an excuse.

That was my excuse too, but dont we always have one. Mine is that they are always on tv, and i dont have the money to go down there so frequently. Just graduated from college:beerme: with no job! :help: :bang:

[SirFelixCat]

fans are taking a more wait and see attitude than in 2004.


As am I...but this team is making that hard to do....:eek: :beerme:

[reds44]

Well my excuse is I live in Chicago.

haha

[6-4-3]

Horrible weather tonight. Mine is i'm still out of state for school!

[TheBigLebowski]

Keep the excuses coming....

[CTA513]

Keep the excuses coming....

Why should we give you excuses? Its obvious any excuse we have isnt good enough for you.

[BuckWoody]

I wasn't there tonight because I have tickets for tomorrow night. :thumbup:

[BoCcc2832]

Thank you. I've said this a couple of times and I agree. I'm sick of Reds fans not be supportive of our team, regardless of the past.

[Cedric]

Were you guys there?

[Redlegs23]

I was at the game, and it was a great night at the ballpark. Stupid weather people had me worried for nothing. I'm ignoring them the rest of the year.

[TheBigLebowski]

Why should we give you excuses? Its obvious any excuse we have isnt good enough for you.


Oh, back off...if you read the thread, 2-3 people just posted official excuses...I was feeding off of that. The post was rather flippant in nature.

However, do you live near the team? If so, have you been this season?

[TheBigLebowski]

Were you guys there?

Were you?

[Cyclone792]

I went tonight, and it turned out to be a nice night for a game, though it was a risk with the weather we were getting all afternoon. The weather was a good omen in dealing with scalpers though as I easily negotiated a good price for seats: four tickets for a combined $15, and we basically had our choice of where to sit for the game ... you certainly cannot beat that.

BTW, tonight was the 10th game of the season I've been to, and I already have tickets for Friday night (college night) as I'll be down there with a group of about a dozen people. I definitely can't be blamed for not supporting the team! :p:

[TheBigLebowski]

I went tonight, and it turned out to be a nice night for a game, though it was a risk with the weather we were getting all afternoon. The weather was a good omen in dealing with scalpers though as I easily negotiated a good price for seats: four tickets for a combined $15, and we basically had our choice of where to sit for the game ... you certainly cannot beat that.

BTW, tonight was the 10th game of the season I've been to, and I already have tickets for Friday night (college night) as I'll be down there with a group of about a dozen people. I definitely can't be blamed for not supporting the team! :p:

Good for you, dude....4 tickets for 15 bucks is a price ANYONE could afford. I don't know what face value is but, when we're filling up less than 40% of our capacity on a nightly basis, fans have to know that they're in a buyer's market.

Also good-on-ya for featuring Erin Andrews as your avatar. She's hot, and she's a Univ of Florida grad!

[Jim]

I also live in Chicago... I'm looking forward to driving up to Milwaukee for the Reds matchups in late July.

[TOBTTReds]

I went tonight, and it turned out to be a nice night for a game, though it was a risk with the weather we were getting all afternoon. The weather was a good omen in dealing with scalpers though as I easily negotiated a good price for seats: four tickets for a combined $15, and we basically had our choice of where to sit for the game ... you certainly cannot beat that.

BTW, tonight was the 10th game of the season I've been to, and I already have tickets for Friday night (college night) as I'll be down there with a group of about a dozen people. I definitely can't be blamed for not supporting the team! :p:


Not in anyway trying to pull you down at all, but whether you were there or not, the paid attendance is the same bc you bought from a scalper.

But, if no one bought from scalpers, then scalpers wouldn't buy more tickets than they need usually, so :beerme:

[Cedric]

Were you?

I have season tickets. I gave them to my brother in law tonite.

The fans are fine. Blame the team for years of inept business.

[CTA513]

Oh, back off...if you read the thread, 2-3 people just posted official excuses...I was feeding off of that. The post was rather flippant in nature.

However, do you live near the team? If so, have you been this season?

I live about 20 minutes or so away from the stadium and yes I went the game last night. If they didnt have 100+ games on TV I would go to more games. But I see no reason to go to a bunch of games a pay alot of money when i can pay about $30-40 on cable and watch about 10-15 or so games a month. I like watching the games at home were i dont have to get up 50+ times to let people through our row and I dont have to listen to people yell trying to sell beer and food every 2 minutes. Its also pretty annoying to have to listen to some loud mouth guy keep on yelling at players for a good portion of the game.

You might like that kind of stuff, I dont. I would rather be able to sit down and watch a game without people blocking my view. My seat at home is pretty comfortable and it doesnt cost $6.50 for a bottle of beer.

[KronoRed]

Well my excuse is I live in Chicago.

haha
Only an 8 hour drive..where is your commitment? ;)

[Chip R]

1. The weather was threatening.
2. The opponent was not a real good one
3. It was a school night. Look back in the box scores throughout April and May in Reds history and you will see that even the best teams did not draw so well this early in the season.
4. People do not believe in this team yet. They have seen this act before: Get hot in April and May and then go into the tank in June or July.

[saboforthird]

My wife and I talked about this yesterday. If the Reds are still "in it" after the All-Star break, we'll try to make a trip up there from the Bluegrass state. We got a baby due any day now. :thumbup:

[Aronchis]

Only 34 games have been played and the Reds were forecasted to be bad. They still very well may be. Alot of ups, downs and inbetweens at this point.

[indyred]

On Baseball Tonight, Kruk took a shot at the crowd. Showed Dunn's bomb and he said where are the people? I'll be there Saturday Night. It's hour and half drive for me. Went and bought the tickets at Meijers tickets.com bit and took them half hour to figure it out. I'm not kidding either. The wife was getting extremley mad at how long it took. I was thinking there was going to be a giant crowd for the Dunn figure night. Reason why I wanted to get them early. I got a pair of $12 in 2nd row upper level behind home plate.......so the pre sell looks week even for that game...........walk up will big, I hope.......

[Yachtzee]

Well, some of us have an exam tomorrow...and live 4 hours away. :)

Seriously, I envy those of you who live/have lived in the Cincinnati area and are able to go to games on a regular basis. As it is, I have to settle for XM, but it's better than the days of having to sit in the car in the driveway to listen to the game.

[TheBigLebowski]

I have season tickets. I gave them to my brother in law tonite.

The fans are fine. Blame the team for years of inept business.

Good. Glad to hear your tickets were used.

I agree the management of the team has not been good in recent years. However, I refuse to continuously blame management/ownership for poor attendance.

The management and ownership were replaced this year. That alone should result in a spike in attendance. The fact that we are 10 games over .500 in May and in first place should also supplement attendance.

Neither has helped. I'm embarrassed.

[Nugget]

don't really want to bring this up but is it the Junior factor too. I know that some on the Board have said that he brings in the crowds. Could the fact that he is out have something to do with it.

[vaticanplum]

Only an 8 hour drive..where is your commitment? ;)

It's actually only about five...even worse!

I go to both Comiskular and Wrigley quite often, and I'm neutral-to-fair on the White Sox and actively dislike the Cubs. So MLB gets my money, and I excuse myself for never having been to GABP.

Seriously though...besides the rain, the management, the Nationals and a lot of other things people have mentioned, I don't think night games on school nights in such a "family-oriented" city typically do too well. Give it another month, and there will be more people there regardless of how the team is doing. This is actually quite a stressful time of year for a lot of people...a lot of things winding up to wind down. School, end of fiscal year, weddings, you name it. Hang in there. (Would an "if you build it..." reference be too corny here...)

[TeamBoone]

In the fans' defense, tonight anyway, it had rained here from around noon right up until just before game time... plus more was predicted, along with severe storms (which didn't come, thank heaven).

There's no way I'd go down there and sit in the rain all night. Who was to know it would quit at game time?

[TeamBoone]

don't really want to bring this up but is it the Junior factor too. I know that some on the Board have said that he brings in the crowds. Could the fact that he is out have something to do with it.

I don't think so. It's typical this time of year. I know, I know, but it is. I honestly don't know why. There seemed to be quite a few kids in the crowd tonight; I was surprised.

I don't think it's because people don't want to go during the week, I just think that until school's out, their kids lives just get in the way.

School will be out in 3 or 4 weeks; we'll see what happens then.

[tsj017]

There were more games on in the 70's then now.

Really? That's not the way I remember it.

And they very rarely televised home games. Maybe one or two a year, plus Opening Day.

Seems like they should televise every road game and no (or very few) home games.

[membengal]

Well, they certainly are not catching a break on weather this homestand...a chance of rain (and a good chance at that) for the next six or seven days, with highs on a few of those days not getting out of the 50s. Yuck.

Then again, I will be there for a few of them from Memphis, so it is what it is.

[westofyou]

Really? That's not the way I remember it.

And they very rarely televised home games. Maybe one or two a year, plus Opening Day.

Seems like they should televise every road game and no (or very few) home games.
I think we have to meet in the middle here, according to my 1978 program there were at least 50 games on TV, accoding to my 1956 almanac in 1956 they showed all weekday Home games except nights and weekends and 30 road games.

[Strikes Out Looking]

It's not just the Reds. I scanned the box scores for last nights games and most had less than 20,000--and that included the O's in Camden Yards--where 35,000 plus a couple of years ago was the norm.

[Roy Tucker]

Yeah, I think weekday April-May games are tough to get to if you have school-age kids. Iffy weather certainly doesn't help. Weekend games are better attended.

I know for us, the month of May is taken up with a wide variety of end-of-the-school-year events (scholastics, music, athletics, etc.). And I think we're probably a pretty typical 'burb-type family.

I'd like to get down to games, but frankly, my spare time is very scarce right now and will be till June when the kids get out. If I get a night off, the couch calls me. Call me Homer.

[westofyou]

It's not just the Reds. I scanned the box scores for last nights games and most had less than 20,000--and that included the O's in Camden Yards--where 35,000 plus a couple of years ago was the norm.
That's because they have sucked wind for the past seasons.


2006 - Attendance Home Road Overall

RNK TEAM GMS TOTAL AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT GMS AVG PCT
1 NY Yankees 14 678,213 48,443 84.3 17 36,191 78.4 31 41,724 81.4
2 LA Dodgers 19 836,770 44,040 78.6 14 28,943 68.8 33 37,635 75.1
3 LA Angels 14 580,330 41,452 92.0 21 23,665 50.9 35 30,780 67.0
4 St. Louis 19 763,018 40,158 85.7 16 25,927 64.4 35 33,652 76.8
5 NY Mets 18 705,241 39,180 68.3 15 35,664 80.1 33 37,582 72.9
6 Chicago Cubs 14 545,994 38,999 94.8 19 33,866 74.9 33 36,044 82.9
7 San Francisco 17 633,077 37,239 89.6 17 33,119 69.0 34 35,179 78.6
8 Boston 16 580,384 36,274 100.3 17 33,775 70.0 33 34,986 82.5
9 Atlanta 11 377,542 34,322 68.5 22 31,589 65.8 33 32,500 66.7
10 Houston 18 588,984 32,721 79.9 16 27,851 59.7 34 30,429 69.8
11 Chicago Sox 19 618,788 32,567 80.2 14 26,031 59.9 33 29,794 71.3
12 San Diego 21 664,038 31,620 74.4 13 26,274 56.4 34 29,576 67.1
13 Texas 21 625,426 29,782 60.6 14 23,064 51.5 35 27,095 57.2
14 Philadelphia 21 602,341 28,682 65.9 11 25,508 57.3 32 27,591 62.9
15 Toronto 20 533,352 26,667 52.8 13 34,835 79.2 33 29,885 62.3
16 Seattle 22 570,112 25,914 54.2 14 26,823 62.9 36 26,267 57.4
17 Washington 13 327,005 25,154 55.6 21 28,252 61.7 34 27,067 59.4
18 Colorado 17 424,049 24,944 49.4 18 24,847 56.0 35 24,894 52.6
19 Baltimore 20 492,632 24,631 51.1 15 30,122 64.0 35 26,984 56.6
20 Cleveland 14 337,864 24,133 55.6 21 23,183 54.0 35 23,563 54.6
21 Arizona 17 406,606 23,918 48.8 17 30,741 67.4 34 27,329 57.8
22 Milwaukee 17 378,925 22,289 52.6 17 37,903 79.4 34 30,096 66.8
23 Cincinnati 16 354,936 22,183 52.7 18 28,864 63.6 34 25,720 58.7
24 Minnesota 16 350,338 21,896 45.0 18 25,017 56.7 34 23,548 50.9
25 Pittsburgh 15 322,604 21,506 56.1 20 29,802 66.8 35 26,247 62.6
26 Oakland 17 361,732 21,278 48.7 16 27,316 57.7 33 24,206 53.3
27 Detroit 14 297,607 21,257 53.0 20 25,925 55.8 34 24,003 54.7
28 Tampa Bay 14 250,830 17,916 40.9 21 26,946 56.6 35 23,334 50.7
29 Kansas City 16 266,479 16,654 40.8 16 26,968 59.5 32 21,811 50.7
30 Florida 16 192,192 12,012 33.1 15 31,730 71.6 31 21,553 53.6

[Caveat Emperor]

I agree the management of the team has not been good in recent years. However, I refuse to continuously blame management/ownership for poor attendance.

The management and ownership were replaced this year. That alone should result in a spike in attendance. The fact that we are 10 games over .500 in May and in first place should also supplement attendance.

Why not blame them? It's very much their fault.

This team has gone so long without being good that a lot of what otherwise would be the hardcore fanbase has fallen off into cynicism and doubt -- that includes me. If I had an opportunity to lay every dollar and posession I own (albeit not much) on the Reds misssing the post-season this year, I'd do it 100 times over. That's the level of confidence I have in this team to continue it's pace, and I know I'm not the only one out there.

It doesn't stop me from going to the ballpark, but it certainly stops other people from going. Not everyone is up for dropping their hard-earned money down on what they believe is a loser franchise and a lost cause. The team may be "winning" but it's readily apparent to me, and others, that they're not going to stay winning with the team they have. You think any knowledgeable baseball fan is going to open the paper, look at the probables and say: "Hmmm, I think I'll go down to the game since Dave Williams/Elizardo Ramirez/Brandon Claussen is pitching?"

Further, I think the ballpark is a small factor as well. If I had to choose a word to describe watching games at the Great American Ballpark, it'd be: Generic. I can't pinpoint anything about the stadium I dislike, but I can't point to anything about it I like either. The atmosphere is so-so, the location is so-so, the actual edifice is utilitarian, and the food is mediocre (here's an area where the Reds should've done their homework on -- it's great to have local restaraunts serving food at the game, but it's better to have great food you can ONLY get at the ballpark, like the BBQ pits on Eutaw Street at Camden Yards).

[Unassisted]

Here's a related question for the local folks. Has there been any change in the marketing of the team? It's been said in years past here that it's been a long time since anyone there has seen the Reds advertise on a billboard. Where has the team been advertising lately? Has there been any more advertising than under the previous regime?

Seems to me like there needs to be some awareness-building in the minds of casual fans that change has taken place. Otherwise those who aren't paying attention and aren't going to games won't change their behavior.

[BuckWoody]

Weather, kids still in school, past performance, lack of marketing, gas prices, concession prices, ticket cost...all of these things are factors for sure but it all boils down to what Yogi said, "If the people don't want to come out to the ballpark, nobody's going to stop them."

[Tommyjohn25]

I think right now the weather is playing a HUGE factor. I know for sure it is stopping 2 of my friends from attending tonights game. I'll be there, with jeans and 3 layers of shirts on. God I hate Ohio weather. :angry:

[RBA]

I just want it to be known, I told everyone a roof (retractable?) should of been in the plans for the GAB park. But they did it on the cheap.

[KronoRed]

I just want it to be known, I told everyone a roof (retractable?) should of been in the plans for the GAB park. But they did it on the cheap.
Blame the Bengals for spending all the money and the Reds for insisting the park HAD to be on the river, no room for the roof (unless they knocked the arena down)

[westofyou]

Blame the Bengals for spending all the money and the Reds for insisting the park HAD to be on the river, no room for the roof (unless they knocked the arena down)
A roof?

Hahahahahhahaha like they need a roof in Ohio.

Blasphamy.

[KronoRed]

Retractable roof ;)

[gilpdawg]

Keep the excuses coming....
Hey, I was there last night.:D Bought a 5 dollar ticket. Parked at Willie's Cafe in Covington and took the TANK across to the park. Spend 2 bucks for the bus ride, and 5 bucks for the ticket, and didn't buy any food or drink. Spent 20 bucks on gas from Richmond, IN. Grand total-$27.00. I like it.:beerme: Wound up sitting down by the dugout by the end of the game because there were so few people there we never actually sat in those 5 dollar seats.

[Roy Tucker]

I just want it to be known, I told everyone a roof (retractable?) should of been in the plans for the GAB park. But they did it on the cheap.
The low-tech solution...

Totes is based in Cincinnati. Hand everyone an umbrella on the way in.

[TeamBoone]

The weather is stinking right now... waaaay cold and lots of rain (for the next 3-4 days). The good weather seems to be when the team is away.

A roof? Nah, they don't need one.

Truthfully, the crapola wether we are getting right now is very out of the norm for May in Cincinnati. The highs for the next several days are projected in the the 50's. Ugh! Can only imagine what it will be mid game, especially with the damp air.

[flyer85]

I will be toughing it out this weekend for both games. Doing my part anyway.

[indyred]

Glad there is no roof on GAB!!!!!! I think it kills the atmosphere.........