Cincinnati Reds vs. Colorado Rockies - Game Thread - 5/3/06

[GridironGrace]

Aight here we go.

Getting my Cap!!

[KYRed]

On the bright side, the ace of the bullpen just lowered his ERA from 16.20 to 13.50!

[captainmorgan07]

buco's jsut lost on a delgado walkoff homer

[Matt700wlw]

buco's jsut lost on a delgado walkoff homer

I almost feel bad for the Pirates...they're so bad.


I said almost :p:

[TheBigLebowski]

So I don't suppose any of you are convinced at the tsunami of evidence pertaining to pitchers leaving Coors and performing infinitely better at sea level--and not resting on the notion that the "splits" somehow reveal how a pitcher would do throwing 159 games at sea level. "Splitting" home and away at Coors reveals about as much about the potential of a pitcher at sea level as the color of the pitcher's boxers.


Jeff Francis' 3 year split has him with a road ERA of 6.38 and a home ERA of 4.61.

Furthermore, I don't know of too many pitchers who throw 159 games a year.

Seems like the "tsunami of evidence" does not favor your client.

[Chip R]

Colorado's station is interviewing a newspaper reporter right now...he seems like the most broing individual in the world.

Wrong.

:obrien:

[edabbs44]

Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up?

[RedsMan3203]

1 out

[Reds Fanatic]

Hatteberg grounds out to 1st. 1 out.

[RBA]

1 out rally!

[griffeyfreak4]

Dunner time

[KronoRed]

Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up?
Cause we play expecting extras all the time ;)

[Big Klu]

Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up?

Gotta agree with you there. Denorfia should have pinch-hit for Hatteberg against the lefty.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn walks on 4 pitches.

[RedsMan3203]

That kid wanted to do NOTHING with Dunner. 4 stright inside pitches.. all balls.

[RBA]

Dunn Walks!! 1 Out Rally!!!

[RedsMan3203]

Gotta agree with you there. Denorfia should have pinch-hit for Hatteberg against the lefty.

Who is on 1st?

Javy?

[griffeyfreak4]

Tying run on deck.

[Unassisted]

Wonder if we can infer from this game that the Reds offense struggles in the rain?

[Big Klu]

Cause we play expecting extras all the time ;)

If we had "only" 11 pitchers, we would have an extra position player on the bench.

[Cedric]

So I don't suppose any of you are convinced at the tsunami of evidence pertaining to pitchers leaving Coors and performing infinitely better at sea level--and not resting on the notion that the "splits" somehow reveal how a pitcher would do throwing 159 games at sea level. "Splitting" home and away at Coors reveals about as much about the potential of a pitcher at sea level as the color of the pitcher's boxers.

Splits are totally irrelevant. Francis might not be Santana, but he can be an incredible pitcher when he get's out of Colorado.

[griffeyfreak4]

That's 5 straight balls

[RedsMan3203]

"Edmonds singled to deep right, Rodriguez scored"

5-4 HOU.

[KronoRed]

Who is on 1st?

Javy?
Or Dunn and Deno to left

[griffeyfreak4]

make that six

[edabbs44]

Just as a side note...this was from Callis' BA chat today. Could he fall to Cincy and would Krivsky pull the trigger???

Peter (Albany): What's stopping the top 4 from drafting Miller? Almighty dollar?

Jim Callis: In short, yes. Miller likely will command a big league contract in the $5 million range, a la recent top college pitchers, if not more.

[George Foster]

boring game.

[Reds Fanatic]

Encarnacion grounds into a 6-4-3 DP. Rockies win 3-0.

[smith288]

WTH is with these GO's all game? Booooooooooooooooo

[BoydsOfSummer]

Well that sucked.

[edabbs44]

Who is on 1st?

Javy?

Dunn

[Big Klu]

Or Dunn and Deno to left

What he said.

Denorfia to LF, Dunn moves from LF to 1B.

[KronoRed]

Shutout in Denver

SUCKtastic

[RBA]

Time to throw in the towel.

[griffeyfreak4]

:sleep:

[griffeyfreak4]

Well, you can't win them all

[RedsMan3203]

Its not as bad as it looks...

Francis is a good pitcher....

Now - The old Reds teams would most likely fold tomorrow night... Gotta come back with a statement game.

[George Foster]

Tomorrow in Denver, it's suppose to rain all day and all night, might be a day off.

[smith288]

They pressed too hard to light up the box scores and what we wound up with was a goose egg. Way to go guys.

[KronoRed]

Time to throw in the towel.
They'll need em to dry off.

[Matt700wlw]

Oh well...it happens.

Funny part is, The Red Sox/Blue Jays game is still on ESPN...it started 90 minutes before the Reds game. :lol:

Ok..it's over now.

[smith288]

This JTM commercial is starting to reach Red Roof Inn annoying.

[Unassisted]

Wet balls that have been sitting in the humidor all day don't travel very far.

[GridironGrace]

well crap.

shutout :(

tis ok means we'll score 10 tomorrow...

[George Foster]

Oh well...it happens.

Funny part is, The Red Sox/Blue Jays game is still on ESPN...it started 90 minutes before the Reds game. :lol:

You mean ESPN is showing a Red Sox game? Wow that never happens!

[edabbs44]

When do they start the cross promotion of Red Roof and JTM? Like:

"Stay at Red Roof and get a free JTM Beef Hoagie Pattie!"

[Falls City Beer]

Jeff Francis' 3 year split has him with a road ERA of 6.38 and a home ERA of 4.61.

Furthermore, I don't know of too many pitchers who throw 159 games a year.

Seems like the "tsunami of evidence" does not favor your client.

You're silly. You don't get it: Darryl Kile had similar atrocious splits at Coors and on the road--just as bad at sea level as Coors--that is, until he left Coors permanently. Same with Hampton.

Simply put, every pitcher pitches better when they regularly don't pitch for the Rockies. I don't know the cause of this phenomenon. I don't pretend to know. But what I do know is that guys have that weird, totally unrevealing home and away split, but invariably they get away from Coors permanently and they pitch much, much better at sea level consistently.

Get Francis (who's 25 by the way--great apples to oranges comparison to the veteran Santana beginning his 5th full season as a starter compared to Francis, who's just beginning his second full season) and place him at sea level, and you'll get Tom Glavine at a very reduced cost.

I'm telling you, this kid will be a superstar if he gets to pitch in a major sea-level market.

[edabbs44]

You're silly. You don't get it: Darryl Kile had similar atrocious splits at Coors and on the road--just as bad at sea level as Coors--that is, until he left Coors permanently. Same with Hampton.

Simply put, every pitcher pitches better when they regularly don't pitch for the Rockies. I don't know the cause of this phenomenon. I don't pretend to know. But what I do know is that guys have that weird, totally unrevealing home and away split, but invariably they get away from Coors permanently and they pitch much, much better at sea level consistently.

Get Francis (who's 25 by the way--great apples to oranges comparison to the veteran Santana beginning his 5th full season as a starter compared to Francis, who's just beginning his second full season) and place him at sea level, and you'll get Tom Glavine at a very reduced cost.

I'm telling you, this kid will be a superstar if he gets to pitch in a major sea-level market.

FCB, I think that everyone on this board and around the country agrees with you. But you cannot compare him to Johan. Plain and simple.

[KYRed]

Barring a Cubs comeback from 4-1 down, Houston games a game on the entire division. I suspect this is the first time all season that the NL Central had a 1-5 day.

[Chip R]

That was sucktastic.

[The_jbh]

one of the top offenses in baseball gets shutout at coors... wow

[traderumor]

A rainout tomorrow wouldn't break my heart. A two game series is just enough time for the Reds to start settling in just in time to leave. Tonight it looked like a typical first night into Coors. That and Francis started throwing strikes after the second. He had great control, and that usually spells doom for the Reds.

[Big Klu]

great apples to oranges comparison to the veteran Santana beginning his 5th full season as a starter compared to Francis, who's just beginning his second full season.

Well, you did say that Francis had the best stuff of any LHP since Randy Johnson, so since Johan Santana came along after Johnson, I think it is a fair comparison.

[George Foster]

You're silly. You don't get it: Darryl Kile had similar atrocious splits at Coors and on the road--just as bad at sea level as Coors--that is, until he left Coors permanently. Same with Hampton.

Simply put, every pitcher pitches better when they regularly don't pitch for the Rockies. I don't know the cause of this phenomenon. I don't pretend to know. But what I do know is that guys have that weird, totally unrevealing home and away split, but invariably they get away from Coors permanently and they pitch much, much better at sea level consistently.

Get Francis (who's 25 by the way--great apples to oranges comparison to the veteran Santana beginning his 5th full season as a starter compared to Francis, who's just beginning his second full season) and place him at sea level, and you'll get Tom Glavine at a very reduced cost.

I'm telling you, this kid will be a superstar if he gets to pitch in a major sea-level market.

I totally agree. Has the Rockies ever had a dominant starting pitcher year in and year out? This franchise has been around since like 1988, you would have thought they would have cought lightning in a bottle at least once. Hampton is a perfect example.

[traderumor]

I totally agree. Has the Rockies ever had a dominant starting pitcher year in and year out? This franchise has been around since like 1988, you would have thought they would have cought lightning in a bottle at least once. Hampton is a perfect example.The Rockies first season was 1993.

[traderumor]

Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up? Why is Hatte up?I think your record is scratched

[George Foster]

The Rockies first season was 1993.

Really? I could have swore I had a Rockies hat in college. I graduated in 91.

[Falls City Beer]

Well, you did say that Francis had the best stuff of any LHP since Randy Johnson, so since Johan Santana came along after Johnson, I think it is a fair comparison.

Maybe it is. And I'm saying put Francis at sea level, give him a full season there to make the comparison work, and he'll be putting up Santana numbers.

[CincyReds2003]

Really? I could have swore I had a Rockies hat in college. I graduated in 91.


MLB was selling Rockies and Marlins merchandise, two years before they started. I had a Rockies hat as well.

[Falls City Beer]

Man, losing to the Rockies. That's as much fun as being awakened by a tazer.

[traderumor]

Maybe it is. And I'm saying put Francis at sea level, give him a full season there to make the comparison work, and he'll be putting up Santana numbers.So if you put Francis below sea level, would he hear a tree falling in the woods?

[indyred]

I wonder how many years till people will believe Coors is now a pitcher's yard.......
By Troy E. Renck
Denver Post MLB Beat Reporter



Perception must be powerful.

How else to explain how well-meaning, well-informed national baseball writers and commentators continue to believe Coors Field is a pitchers' abyss.

As Rockies pitchers and catchers wandered into Tucson last week, burdened by last-place predictions, a thorough ESPN scribe opined on local radio a few days ago that Colorado should return to the Blake Street Bombers model because pitchers just "get their brains beat in there."

Problem is, that's no longer true because of the humidor.

There were 67 quality starts - six innings, three earned runs or fewer - at Coors Field last year. The Rockies accounted for 34, opponents 33. That means a staggering 41 percent of the time baseball's standard measure of success was met.

But what about all those cheap home runs? As stated repeatedly on these pages for four years, that Coors Field no longer exists. It has been replaced by Coors Light Field. Last season, there were 170 home runs hit at the park - shattering the previous low of 212 - which tied for 15th in baseball.

What does this say? That it is time, starting this season, to evaluate pitchers differently in Denver.

No longer can a 5.00 home ERA be accepted with shrugged shoulders. The Rockies produced a quality start 42 percent of the time a year ago, alarming frequency given ace-in-waiting Aaron Cook and former rookie of the year Jason Jennings missed half the season.

"We need to get to a point where ERAs regularly get below 5.00," general manager Dan O'Dowd said. "What this shows is that if we put together a talented staff, you have a chance to be successful, where before it didn't matter. But we need to see how the field continues to play."

It's not going to have a relapse. The humidor - where baseballs are stored at manufacturer's specifications rather than drying out - prevents it. While not completely discounting decent starting pitching - few Rockies have ever pitched as well as Cook did last summer - saying the humidor is not a critical factor is to suggest Cindy Crawford graces magazine covers because of her intelligence.

"The biggest advantage that we have now is that we are finally putting a ball in play every day that's fair," manager Clint Hurdle said last week.

Thus the biggest issue facing the Rockies in their climb toward respectability is not their pitching, but their hitting. They need to score 100 more runs, minimum, this season to contend in the National League West. Colorado's offense must be able to win 5-4 in the same way the Rockies' best teams won by an average score of 7-6.

And in the process, perhaps, they will dispel the myth.

[Larry Schuler]

After taking 3 out of 4 from two very good teams I can see the Reds losing this series. That seems to be the way baseball works. You swim with the big fish and drown with the Rockies.

[George Foster]

So if you put Francis below sea level, would he hear a tree falling in the woods?

No but you would hear gun shots, and see people looting plasma screens in New Orleans:D

[traderumor]

Last season, there were 170 home runs hit at the park - shattering the previous low of 212


"What this shows is that if we put together a talented staff, you have a chance to be successful..."

And if you don't have much offense that even in Coors, HR totals will go down, thus dispelling as myth the myth

[traderumor]

After taking 3 out of 4 from two very good teams I can see the Reds losing this series. That seems to be the way baseball works. You swim with the big fish and drown with the Rockies.
I don't know who that team was, but they could field ground balls. Of course, no Helton, no Hawpe made that a really weak lineup, but with Francis and the Reds flailing, it didn't take much.

[MasonBuzz3]

Oh, I've been trying to put Rich's head on a picture of Flair but I'm no good at that sort of thing.
here's a quick 'shop for you, hope it is what you were looking for

[Chip R]

here's a quick 'shop for you, hope it is what you were looking for

That is pretty good but you should leave the hat on.

[George Foster]

You got to be the man to beat the man.....I'm stylin' and profilin' Whoooooo

[MasonBuzz3]

That is pretty good but you should leave the hat on.
ok

[red-in-la]

I know baseball has blessed the humidors.....but isn't there lots of language in the Baseball Rule Book prohibiting making any alteration to the baseballs by one player, one team, or one franchise?

When the belief was that the humidors wouldn't really alter the balls, and that it was just a publicity stunt, I could see MLB shrugging its collective shoulders and saying, "who cares."

But if there is some proof that the behavior of the baseballs is actually being altered, then it seems to me that the rules are being broken.

I mean, why not just order softer baseballs or ones with higher seams or a rougher cover if you want them to behave differently in Coors than in other venues? Call the baseballs used in Coors the Coors Light dead balls.

Oh well, just another Orwellian practice by MLB where the integrity of the game is paramount.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TheBigLebowski]

You're silly. You don't get it: Darryl Kile had similar atrocious splits at Coors and on the road--just as bad at sea level as Coors--that is, until he left Coors permanently. Same with Hampton.

Simply put, every pitcher pitches better when they regularly don't pitch for the Rockies. I don't know the cause of this phenomenon. I don't pretend to know. But what I do know is that guys have that weird, totally unrevealing home and away split, but invariably they get away from Coors permanently and they pitch much, much better at sea level consistently.

Get Francis (who's 25 by the way--great apples to oranges comparison to the veteran Santana beginning his 5th full season as a starter compared to Francis, who's just beginning his second full season) and place him at sea level, and you'll get Tom Glavine at a very reduced cost.

I'm telling you, this kid will be a superstar if he gets to pitch in a major sea-level market.


Darryl Kile. One example. One and only.

How has Mike Hampton responded to life, post-Coors? Denny Neagle?

I do not dispute that it is easier to pitch anywhere in the majors other than Coors. Few people would.

However, using tonight's performance (or, any of his performances) to support an argument that Jeff Francis is comparable to Johan Santana is just laughable. It is laughable to compare this guy with any premier lefty who pitches at sea level - Willis, Buerhle, etc. If you ask me what sort of season Francis would have if he pitched for the Braves or Brewers or any other non-Coors team, I would agree that his stats would improve. That prediction does fly in the face of his past performances, which clearly show Francis to be a better pitcher in Coors than anywhere esle. I just find it hard to believe that a pitcher cannot improve if he is extricated from Coors field. Regardless, stats are stats, and one cannot argue them. Francis has pitched significantly better at Coors than on the road or, at sea level, throughout his career. Furthermore - you not only compared him to Santana and the like - you said he was better.

I defy you to find people with respected opinions who agree with you. These people can be Redszone posters or knowledgable folks from other boards.

BTW - FYI - Johan Santana was a top 3 pick in fantasy drafts this year. Jeff Francis is currently owned by 2% of ESPN fantasy baseball owners.

[Cedric]

Dude he's just stating an opinion that can't be proven one way or the other right now. Give it up. Jeff Francis was a big time pitching prospect and he's got a bright future. Until he get's out of Colorado we will never know how good he can truly be.

[cincyinco]

Ugh.. i'm never starting a game thread again. I have to believe the radar gun was off a little bit as both Francis AND Claussen were working around 85. The reason I think its off a bit is it clocked Matt Belisle at 91 tops. I know he can throw much harder than that. Claussen looked pretty good. He threw strikes, and only had the 1 mistake. Lopez let him down by missing the catch from the pickoff and then missing a ball that glanced off his palm and chest into center.. Thats when the wheels fell off.

In any case, the offense was non existant. I thought EE's ball was fair, and felt that was a turning point in the game, kind of killed any momentum we had.

I sat through 8.5 innings of baseball in the drizzle... it was rough, but still had a lot of fun. I'll more than likely be going again tomorrow.

[membengal]

Wet balls that have been sitting in the humidor all day don't travel very far.

Truest statement of the thread.

Oh, and Jeff Francis is a really quality pitcher. Sometimes you lose games when quality pitchers are on. No big deal.

Better news is that Claussen was pretty damn sharp himself, and even a little offense makes this one close.

[Heath]

I didn't expect a win after get-away day passing through two time zones. I expect a better adjusted Reds team tomorrow.

[registerthis]

BTW - FYI - Johan Santana was a top 3 pick in fantasy drafts this year. Jeff Francis is currently owned by 2% of ESPN fantasy baseball owners.

Oh, well that settles it then.

[westofyou]

I didn't expect a win after get-away day passing through two time zones. I expect a better adjusted Reds team tomorrow.
Yeah the west trips have never been nice to the Reds, but the Rockies played in Atl the day before and got into town 6 hours after the Reds.

[kbrake]

Looking at the weather in Denver today looks like both teams might get a day of rest. I really hope they can get this game in, I actually have today off and dont know what I will do if they dont play. I need baseball.

[cincyinco]

Looking at the weather in Denver today looks like both teams might get a day of rest. I really hope they can get this game in, I actually have today off and dont know what I will do if they dont play. I need baseball.

The weather doesn't look any worse than yesterday...

[kbrake]

I really hope they can get this one in.

[membengal]

Looks like lows dipping into the 30s tonight, with lingering rain/snow showers. They will get it in. But it will be cold. This is really the first time they have dealt with truly cold weather since the first week of the season. Reds have been fortunate so far this season to avoid some of this.

[TeamBoone]

Originally Posted by Unassisted
Wet balls that have been sitting in the humidor all day don't travel very far.

Ok, I know they're doing it, and with MLB's blessing, but should it be legal? Isn't it "ball tampering" (I can't think of an appropriate term).

[TeamBoone]

First time shut out for Reds by Rockies

By Hal McCoy / Staff Writer

DENVER | Call it the C.R. factor that two of the biggest surprises in major-league baseball carry those initials — the first-place Cincinnati Reds (National League Central) and the first-place Colorado Rockies (National League West).

Whatever the hype, it didn't dislodge Denverites from their sofas on this chilly, damp Thursday night as only 18,214 showed up, smallest crowd in Coors Field history.

Those in the seats saw the Reds shut out for the first time ever by the Rockies franchise, a combination of Jeff Francis, Jose Mesa and Brian Fuentes, a 3-0 four-hitter.

Neither team played with devout enthusiasm and reckless abandon perhaps due to thumb-numbing cold and the fact both teams traveled great distances the night before.

For the Reds, though, the initials have been the R.A. factor — Rich Aurilia.

When the Reds and Rockies began play, the Reds were a major-league best 19-8, but the better number was their record when Aurilia was in the starting lineup — 13-3 (8-2 at first base, 1-0 at shortstop, 4-0 at third base and 0-1 at second base).

Those numbers slipped to 19-9 and 13-4 on a night Aurilia's double and three singles by the rest of gang were the sum total of a nothing offense.

Of more importance, Aurilia left the game after the sixth inning with a strained right groin, right after his error helped the Rockies score three runs in the fifth inning against Brandon Claussen.

Aurilia was noticeably limping in the post-game clubhouse and was to be checked today for the extent of his injury.

"It is frustrating because I was playing good, the team is playing good, everybody is confident," he said. "I did it running to first base on a grounder to third, trying to turn it on after I saw the third baseman bobble the ball. If I had been half-gassing it to first, I wouldn't have gotten hurt."

Choo Freeman led the fifth with a single and Claussen had him picked off first base. He broke for second and first baseman Aurilia's throw skidded into the outfield as Freeman took third.

A run-scoring single by Danny Ardoin and a two-run single by Matt Holliday was the night's only scoring. It was catcher Ardoin's first hit of the season with runners in scoring position and he was 0 for 15.

"We had our own guys in scoring position early in the game and just didn't get a hit," said manager Jerry Narron, referring to two on in the first when Edwin Encarnacion popped out, Brandon Phillips on third after a single and two stolen bases without budging toward home and Aurilia's two-out double in the third before Adam Dunn popped out.

"When you give up only three runs in this ball park, you feel like you can win, but we had the one bad inning (fifth) where we didn't make a couple of plays and they scored three runs or we might still be out there playing," said Narron.

Of Aurilia's injury, Narron said, "Those weren't ideal conditions to be running the bases."

Said Aurilia, "I'm an old guy, I should be smarter than that. I've done these before in my career. We've been playing in warmer weather and then we come to a colder climate and these things happen and there is nothing to do to prevent them. You don't get loose as quick.

"It is frustrating because I've been helping the team," he added. "Francis mixed speeds and kept the ball down, things you need to do in this ball park and he did it."

For his part, Claussen (2-3) did what most pitchers can't do in Coors, held the Rockies to three runs and six hits over 6 2/3s innings — and still felt the nasty sting of defeat.

"That's the best I felt all year," he said. "But this game isn't about how good you feel."

Indeed. Ask Aurilia.
http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/0504redsweb.html

[reds44]

"It is frustrating because I was playing good, the team is playing good, everybody is confident," he said. "I did it running to first base on a grounder to third, trying to turn it on after I saw the third baseman bobble the ball. If I had been half-gassing it to first, I wouldn't have gotten hurt."

Is there a man in baseball who pats himself more on the back then RA?

[KronoRed]

Is there a man in baseball who pats himself more on the back then RA?
Womack?

;)