So, would you trade Denorfia for Shealy? [Archive] - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

Javy Pornstache

05-22-2006, 03:12 PM

I dunno, maybe this ought to be in the minor league forum, but I think it concerns the major league roster just as well. One of the newspapers I checked out this morning mentioned something of Colorado shopping Ryan Shealy for CF help as they are not banking on Choo Freeman there for the future. I think it is quite natural that a swap of Chris Denorfia for Ryan Shealy could be beneficial for both clubs....I think both clubs would like to use the guys they have, but would need to find a way to work them in, as both are blocked (quite unreasonably in Denorfia's case here, but that's just my opinion).

So, would you do it? Denorfia for Shealy? Would you get anyone else involved in this deal or keep it as a one for one?

I would like to add that I personally really like Chris Denorfia as a player and think at worst he is a great fourth outfielder, but I really like him as an everyday center fielder for the Reds. But if they're never going to give him a chance, might as well see if he can help you get another need you have. I've been thinking that if Wagner hasn't killed ALL his value yet, a combination of Denorfia and Wagner could fetch you something fairly fancy, but I dunno.

All this said, if there's anything that is a bigger need than pitching, it's improving the defense up the middle and Denorfia could be a huge key to that. But, finding a CF with good range may not be a huge problem if you're able to swap him for a major league ready 1B who does have the potential to be a Travis Hafner-type. What do you think?

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:14 PM

Seeing as Deno has no place to play, I would. I honestly think that Narron, however, is quite enamored with his first base platton.

edabbs44

05-22-2006, 03:17 PM

I would...if Cincy refuses to use Deno then they might as well shop him to get some help in other areas. I would rather he be used for BP help though.

pedro

05-22-2006, 03:18 PM

yup.

check out his stats so far this year.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=551&stn=true&sid=t551

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:20 PM

yup.

check out his stats so far this year.

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&cid=551&stn=true&sid=t551
His stats have to be tempered with knowing he plays half of his games in Colorado Springs.

Having said that he is still likely to be a sizeable offensive and defensive upgrade at 1b.

Heath

05-22-2006, 03:20 PM

I'd do it probably - but I think in the long-run it's going to hurt.

I'd prefer to flip Deno for pitching, but I'd REALLY prefer Deno in CF.

Heath

05-22-2006, 03:21 PM

His stats have to be tempered with knowing he plays half of his games in Colorado Springs.

Don't they use a humidor in CSprings?

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:22 PM

Don't they use a humidor in CSprings?I've heard he doesn't like cigars. :D

BRM

05-22-2006, 03:24 PM

His stats have to be tempered with knowing he plays half of his games in Colorado Springs.

Having said that he is still likely to be a sizeable offensive and defensive upgrade at 1b.

Is Shealy considered a good defensive 1B? Or is he only considered good compared to Hatteberg and Aurilia?

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:26 PM

Is Shealy considered a good defensive 1B? Or is he only considered good compared to Hatteberg and Aurilia?At least according to BA he is considered an above average 1B. Not gold glove caliber but very solid, quite unlike Hatty and RA. He has been playing the position throughout his career and plays no other position, thus his limited trade value.

BRM

05-22-2006, 03:27 PM

At least according to BA he is considered an above average 1B. Not gold glove caliber but very solid, quite unlike Hatty and RA. He has been playing the position throughout his career and plays no other position, thus his limited trade value.

You have to think the Rockies are going to be shopping him real soon as he is currently blocked at his position. Maybe they are waiting until the deadline to use him as trade bait to help the big club stay in the race.

BenHayes

05-22-2006, 03:29 PM

I certainly would. I have always thought that Denorfia was a fourth outfielder, albiet a very good one, and after listening and talking to a couple of scouts at the games in Charlotte the other week it sounds like they feel the same. Sheely woud give the Reds more power at first not to mention some right handed power which they don't have on the bench. Who's to say if the scouts were honest but they did take the time to talk.

CTA513

05-22-2006, 03:29 PM

Denorfia isnt going to get much playing time with Dunn, Griffey & Kearns on the team.
So they might as well consider trading him if they can get a sold 1B in return.

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:30 PM

You have to think the Rockies are going to be shopping him real soon as he is currently blocked at his position. Maybe they are waiting until the deadline to use him as trade bait to help the big club stay in the race.you have to have a buyer and very few teams are currently looking to upgrade at 1b.

BRM

05-22-2006, 03:33 PM

Well, the flip side of this is that the Rockies are happy with Cory Sullivan so far. I'm not sure they trade for a centerfielder unless Sullivan tanks in the next month or so.

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:35 PM

Well, the flip side of this is that the Rockies are happy with Cory Sullivan so far. I'm not sure they trade for a centerfielder unless Sullivan tanks in the next month or so.Sullivan brings little offense to the table. A .318 OBP for a leadoff hitter playing in Colorado is abysmal. Deno would likely be a huge upgrade.

Guacarock

05-22-2006, 03:37 PM

I've advocated acquiring Shealy for quite some time. That said, I would prefer we work a deal with the Rockies centering around one of our three catchers (Larue, Valentin, or D Ross), as opposed to Denorfia. Colorado does have an exceptionally weak catching crew, so perhaps there's room to barter, assuming both sides might want different throw-ins to balance the scales.

Still, if push came to shove and Denorfia had to go as the cornerstone in a trade to get Shealy, I'd pull that trigger. Junior's legs could go out at any time, but we have Freel as a capable understudy and Cody Ross waiting in the wings. I noted Ross playing CF yesterday for the Louisville Bats, and Denorfia in RF.

BRM

05-22-2006, 03:37 PM

Sullivan brings little offense to the table. A .318 OBP for a leadoff hitter playing in Colorado is abysmal. Deno would likely be a huge upgrade.

Good point. I just looked up his numbers and he's cooled off significantly lately. I haven't watched the Rockies in a couple of weeks. I think Deno would be an upgrade over him but I still don't know if they take him for Shealy.

flyer85

05-22-2006, 03:39 PM

Good point. I just looked up his numbers and he's cooled off significantly lately. I haven't watched the Rockies in a couple of weeks. I think Deno would be an upgrade over him but I still don't know if they take him for Shealy.maybe not but the Rockies need offense and I doubt they are going to get Chris Young or Milledge for him. The Rocks are in dire need of a catcher as well. P

BRM

05-22-2006, 03:53 PM

maybe not but the Rockies need offense and I doubt they are going to get Chris Young or Milledge for him. The Rocks are in dire need of a catcher as well. P

Maybe the Reds could trade RA and a catcher for him? Acquiring Shealy wouldn't do much unless they opened a spot for him. I'd hate to trade for him and leave him in Louisville.

Guacarock

05-22-2006, 04:11 PM

Maybe the Reds could trade RA and a catcher for him? Acquiring Shealy wouldn't do much unless they opened a spot for him. I'd hate to trade for him and leave him in Louisville.

Trading the catcher would open the roster spot. But you're right, adding RA might be worth doing if it brought us back Shealy and a Rockies reliever. They do have several who could provide an immediate boost to our pen.

Who would fill RA's role as utility infielder? Olmedo would get my endorsement. Switch-hitter. More speed. Better defense. And finally putting it together as a batter.

BRM

05-22-2006, 04:13 PM

Trading the catcher would open the roster spot. But you're right, adding RA might be worth doing if it brought us back Shealy and a Rockies reliever. They do have several who could provide an immediate boost to our pen.

Who would fill RA's role as utility infielder? Olmedo would get my endorsement. Switch-hitter. More speed. Better defense. And finally putting it together as a batter.

I was more referring to opening up playing time for him, not just a 25 man spot. If RA were traded, it would allow Shealy to at least platoon with Hatteberg.

flyer85

05-22-2006, 04:27 PM

Trading the catcher would open the roster spot. But you're right, adding RA might be worth doing if it brought us back Shealy and a Rockies reliever. They do have several who could provide an immediate boost to our pen.

Who would fill RA's role as utility infielder? Olmedo would get my endorsement. Switch-hitter. More speed. Better defense. And finally putting it together as a batter.I don't see that Colorado has a need for RA. They have a GB staff and need IFs that can field their position.

BoCcc2832

05-22-2006, 04:35 PM

I would do it. We already have enough outfielders in our org. We need a 1B who can learn under Aurilia/Hatteberg and then take over when they leave. Certainly, we can't rely on Dunner to be a proficient 1B. Shealy it is!

Falls City Beer

05-22-2006, 04:45 PM

I'd do Deno or Freel for Shealy. Deno's already rotting on the vine in AAA and Freel is likely to rot more now that Griffey's returned and the organization has fallen in love with Phillips. It's time to do right by both of those good soldiers (Deno/Freel) and trade them where they'll be played, all the while improving 1st base/relief pitching for the Reds.

IslandRed

05-22-2006, 04:54 PM

I'll take a contrarian position... I'd rather keep Denorfia, send them Freel and see if that would get us Shealy plus something. But then, I have the fundamentally pessimistic viewpoint that we're not really going to be in the race down the stretch, and would rather cherry-pick opportunities to sell high for the benefit of the 2007+ Reds. No disrespect to Freel, who I love watching play. But he's 30 and being the type of player that puts forth maximum effort to wring the most out of his talent, the wall will come up pretty fast as soon as he loses half a step or the dings accumulate. Denorfia is the better long-term bet to be a regular center fielder, in my opinion.

Of course, maybe Krivsky already has an idea of who the next center fielder will be. And the answer could be "someone not in the Cincinnati organization right now."

CaiGuy

05-22-2006, 04:55 PM

I would go after Fuentes, but it would take a lot more then Deno to get him. It is unreasonable to think we could aquire him cheaply.

Another guy they could take a gamble on is Kim. He hasn't been a good starter by any means, but if he could return to what he was in Arizona, he would be great to have in the pen.

flyer85

05-22-2006, 04:58 PM

It is unreasonable to think we could aquire him cheaply.he Rockies certainly would not give Fuentes up at this point anyway. I would say their playoff chances are as good as the Reds and probably better because of the division they play in.

BRM

05-22-2006, 05:03 PM

he Rockies certainly would not give Fuentes up at this point anyway. I would say their playoff chances are as good as the Reds and probably better because of the division they play in.

I would agree with that. I think the Rockies are a better bet to be buyers than sellers in July. Shealy will probably be dangled to upgrade the big club in a month or so.

OnBaseMachine

05-22-2006, 05:24 PM

Absolutely.

I've been pushing for the Reds to acquire Shealy for some time now. I really like Denorfia, but I would trade him for Shealy and then target Elijah Dukes or Chris Young to be the Reds CF of the future. Shealy is built like Mark McGwire and will remind you of him with his titanic blasts. Get Shealy, stick him behind Dunn and watch him hit 35 home runs a year.

reds44

05-22-2006, 05:26 PM

Crash Davis

05-22-2006, 05:33 PM

I was at the vanguard of the "Deal for Shealy" movement this past offseason, but I think the window may have passed on that one.

Adam Dunn is going to have to be moved to 1B sooner rather than later. As a LF he shows very poor range, a tendancy to fumble the ball and a less than impressive arm. In fact, rather than improving -- as many of us thought he would when he first came to the big leagues -- his defense has actually atrophied over the past several seasons. Nonetheless, the biggest issue with Dunn is that he's just too large for LF. He's going to have to move to 1B soon, and he's going to have to put in the time to get a lot better at 1B.

If this team wants to get serious about contending, they're going to have to significantly improve the defense. And the first priority there is moving Griffey to a corner OF position and Dunn out of the outfield altogether. At that point, Shealy becomes superfluous...and we'd be lacking a guy like Denorfia to share CF with Freel.

Granted, the defensive moves may not happen this year...and Aurilia/Hatteberg certainly deserve better fates than to have their playing time pulled out from underneath them. But if they want to go into next season with a chance, they're going to have to make those changes.

Edited to add:
For the Rockies part, they've shown nothing but love for Cory Sullivan. I don't expect them to give up on Sullivan until he fails publicly and miserably. You make think that's foolish, and I may think that's foolish, but we're not running the Rockies.

Everything I've read regarding a deal for Shealy is that it would be for pitching if/when it does happen.

edabbs44

05-22-2006, 05:36 PM

Red Heeler

05-22-2006, 06:04 PM

I'll send up a Krusty special:

Reds deal: Ryan Freel, Jason Larue, and any minor league pitcher not named Homer.

Rockies deal: Ryan Shealy and Jeff Francis

KronoRed

05-22-2006, 06:19 PM

Only if we play Shealy, putting him at AAA would be a waste of time.

Newman4

05-22-2006, 08:10 PM

Josh Newman of the Rockies' AA Tulsa Drillers is pretty good.

Mario-Rijo

05-22-2006, 08:26 PM

The Rockies pen has been pretty sound this season, might they be comfortable enough to deal say Ray King? He was a very good LH out of the pen for St. Louis, he would certainly be an upgrade over some we have. Might we put together a package of Dave Williams, Shackleford, Cody Ross and Votto for Shealy, King and a Triple-A arm. They could use all 4 of the above. Or at least consider some of these players!

Red Heeler

05-22-2006, 09:42 PM

cincinnati chili

05-23-2006, 01:34 AM

Edited to add:
For the Rockies part, they've shown nothing but love for Cory Sullivan. I don't expect them to give up on Sullivan until he fails publicly and miserably. You make think that's foolish, and I may think that's foolish, but we're not running the Rockies.

Everything I've read regarding a deal for Shealy is that it would be for pitching if/when it does happen.

Ding ding. The Rockies are indeed shopping Shealy. But CF is not really their biggest need. My guess is that they'll either trade him for a stud pitching prospect or for multiple players. It will take much more than Denorfia. Last year, when Shealy's stock was arguably lower, there was a deal to send him to the Red Sox in a 2 for 4 deal (Shealy and Larry Bigbie for Adam Stern, Abe Alvarez, Kelly Shoppach, and another minor leaguer)

I saw Shealy play in person on Friday night in Colorado Springs. Yes, he hit a home run off former major leaguer Billy Traber waaaaaay out toward hideous tract housing beyond left center (for those interested, Brandon Larson homered for the opposing team - New Orleans).

I realize that there's an "altitude" factor here, but everything I saw and everything I've read tells me that he's someone you want, if you can possibly make room for him. Let's just say there's a much better chance he's the next Richie Sexson than the next Josh Phelps.

Did I mention the guy is big. Biiiiggggg. Eye to eye with Adam Dunn Big.

He did not look all that great defensively, but it's first base. WTH.

I'm not one who thinks Dunn will be the first baseman of the future. The big gorilla wants to play LF. Let him play LF. So we need a good 1B after the Hatteberg stopgap. No, it's not as big a need as pitching, but it's a need.

Crash Davis

05-23-2006, 02:04 AM

I'm not one who thinks Dunn will be the first baseman of the future. The big gorilla wants to play LF. Let him play LF. So we need a good 1B after the Hatteberg stopgap. No, it's not as big a need as pitching, but it's a need.

Are you worried about the Reds' defense?

Is the Reds' defense something you think they will have to address before they can seriously contend?

If you did address the Reds' defense, what are the positions most drastically in need of an upgrade? How would you impose that upgrade?

Have you noticed how bad Dunn has become in LF? I was one who always said the talk about his defense in LF was overblown. No longer. I've watched 95% of their games this season now that I'm out of market, and Adam Dunn is atrocious in the field. I'm talking flat-out trainwreck in LF (unfortunately, he's equally as bad at 1B at this point).

If woy's statistics on the history of 6'-6" MLB players mean anything at all, Adam Dunn will not stay out there much longer.

cincinnati chili

05-23-2006, 02:12 AM

Have you noticed how bad Dunn has become in LF? I was one who always said the talk about his defense in LF was overblown. No longer. I've watched 95% of their games this season now that I'm out of market, and Adam Dunn is atrocious in the field. I'm talking flat-out trainwreck in LF (unfortunately, he's equally as bad at 1B at this point).

A fair question. And the fair answer is "no." other than the amusement park ride that was opening day. Two words - law school. I should see more televised baseball in the summer months.

If he's really been substantially worse in '06 than in '04 and early '05, I'd be curious to know why. If it's reached the point where his defense outweighs the benefits of his hitting, then the answer would be to trade him to Boston for prospects.

And getting back to the point of the thread - I'd still want Shealy if we can get him for fair value.

Topcat

05-23-2006, 02:20 AM

my trade is Mr.Hat and Deno and perinial good d nothing else Dane Sardinhia and Shackleford for Shealy and J.D.closser. If they need extra to be induced add Valentin.Defintly add Valentin( this way its a more balanced trade)

Crash Davis

05-23-2006, 02:28 AM

If he's really been substantially worse in '06 than in '04 and early '05, I'd be curious to know why. If it's reached the point where his defense outweighs the benefits of his hitting, then the answer would be to trade him to Boston for prospects.

Admittedly, I'm going strictly by what I see when I watch the games, but I trust my ability to judge defense. Adam Dunn is significantly worse in LF now than he was two years ago.

Why?

I suspect much of it has to do with the fact that he's bigger now than he was a few years ago. He's not in great shape...and when you start out at 6'6" and built like a bear in first place, that can become troublesome for certain aspects of baseball. Austin Kearns found out the hard way that it's much easier to play this game when you're not carrying a little extra weight. Dunn is good enough offensively that he'll not have to worry about that until he forces it to become an issue.

It could also be that we often forget defense slumps as well as offense. Some of it could be in his head...that might explain the bobbles, the stumbling & falling, being out of position on pop-ups, etc. But it won't explain his loss of range, loss of arm strength & accuracy and lackadaisical (at times) outfield play.

Before I get jumped on by the Dunn defenders, I'd like to point out that I, myself, have been one of Dunn's biggest proponents since he was in A ball. I think he's an incredible talent and still underrated even in Cincinnati much less the rest of baseball. However, that does NOT mean there aren't areas for improvement in Dunn's game...in his case, glaring ones.

Re: the original subject. I'm a huge Shealy fan. I'd love to get him. Unfortunately, there's nowhere to play him this season...assuming you don't pull the rug out from under players producing like Aurilia & Hatteberg. And if defense means anything whatsoever, there won't be a spot for him after Dunn moves to 1B & Griffey moves to LF. Just my .02 on the state of the Reds at 1B, CF & LF.

Red Heeler

05-23-2006, 09:27 AM

Are you worried about the Reds' defense?

Is the Reds' defense something you think they will have to address before they can seriously contend?

If you did address the Reds' defense, what are the positions most drastically in need of an upgrade? How would you impose that upgrade?

Have you noticed how bad Dunn has become in LF? I was one who always said the talk about his defense in LF was overblown. No longer. I've watched 95% of their games this season now that I'm out of market, and Adam Dunn is atrocious in the field. I'm talking flat-out trainwreck in LF (unfortunately, he's equally as bad at 1B at this point).

If woy's statistics on the history of 6'-6" MLB players mean anything at all, Adam Dunn will not stay out there much longer.

Boston has managed to win a bunch with Manny in LF. The difference is that the Red Sox have had Damon or Crisp in CF to cover up some of the deficiency. Having a CF with limited range only magnifies Dunn's defensive shortcomings.

Crash Davis

05-23-2006, 10:08 AM

Boston has managed to win a bunch with Manny in LF. The difference is that the Red Sox have had Damon or Crisp in CF to cover up some of the deficiency. Having a CF with limited range only magnifies Dunn's defensive shortcomings.

Right now, Manny is a much better LF than Adam Dunn. Talk about a guy with an overblown defensive reputation...I mean he's no great shakes, he's even below average, but he's not nearly as bad as people make him out to be.

Though I agree that a CF with limited range only magnifies Dunn's shortcomings.

Javy Pornstache

05-23-2006, 01:20 PM

So, to modify it slightly, would Ryan Freel/Chris Denorfia + Javy Valentin for Ryan Shealy + Ray King seem realistic and palatable for both teams? Add a player perhaps to balance it a little more?

I believe the Rockies have a couple lefties in the pen aside from King. I can see Shealy being shopped more for pitching help, which is a potential roadblock. I do think Jennings, Francis, Cook and maybe Kim are set as starters so they could use one or two more potentially. But if they run with what they have, and are looking to make a deal now, perhaps this could work out. CF and C are two primary needs, and coincidentally, two positions we can deal from.