Jr. handles criticism

[fisch11]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2457007

ESPN article talks about Jr.'s defense and the criticism for him to switch positions. The quote at the end sums up Jr.'s personality. The only way he knows how to play......you tell 'em Ken.

[edabbs44]

So it's not Dunn's fault that Jr is still in CF....interesting.

[Unassisted]

Ironic that the only Red quoted in that article other than Griffey is Aurilia, a guy whose contribution to the team includes starting at all 4 infield positions this year. Which is a much different contribution than Aurilia was expecting to make when he became a Red last year. :doh:

[Unassisted]

A little more detail in MLB.com's version

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/content/printer_friendly/cin/y2006/m05/d24/c1470305.jsp


Griffey opens up to media after stand-off
05/24/2006 7:49 PM ET
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- Switch positions? Reds center fielder Ken Griffey Jr. doesn't want to hear it. He'd probably prefer that you don't even think it.

Griffey, now fully recovered from the right knee strain that put him on the disabled list for a month, has recently been on a home run groove while making some spectacular defensive plays that were equally buzz-worthy.

Yet hosts on a local sports radio program created a much different buzz Monday morning by suggesting that Griffey was no longer the player he once was and should switch to left field or first base.

Griffey said he didn't listen to the show personally, but the comments clearly stung. Although the radio personalities in question are never seen at the ballpark or in the clubhouse, the 36-year-old refused to speak to any media following the previous two games.

A 10-time Gold Glove winner and 12-time All-Star with 542 career homers (12th all-time), Griffey ended his silence on Wednesday but was still fuming.

"All I want to do is go out and play baseball, that's it," Griffey said. "To be judged after eight games after I busted my [rear end] to get back, I think it's [wrong]. It's easy for people to criticize somebody and not be out there. 'You should have caught that ball?' Well, it's not like I'm not trying.

"What you guys write or say, that doesn't just stay in this clubhouse. "I have to live it. I have to go places. I have to do normal things. I go to the grocery store. I can't do anything but just hold my head up high and keep moving."

In Tuesday's 7-3 victory over Milwaukee, Griffey hit a three-run homer for the go-ahead run a half-inning after colliding with the fence to make a leaping catch. On Monday, he made two strong plays in the field that saved extra-base hits.

Since being activated from the DL on May 11, Griffey has four homers -- including three over the previous four games. He entered Wednesday with a seven-game hitting streak while batting .268 with six homers and 25 RBIs.

"If I felt that I was going to hurt this team, don't you think that I would say okay [to switch positions]?" Griffey said.

Reds manager Jerry Narron has never hinted that he's planned to move Griffey out of center field. He defended his superstar player in his postgame comments on Tuesday.

"Anybody that had any questions about Ken Griffey Jr. I think they can be put to rest," Narron said. "He's played outstanding since he's been back."

An assortment of injuries, especially to his legs, has decimated Griffey's tenure with the Reds since his trade from the Mariners before the 2000 season. He played just 70 games in 2002, followed by 53 games in 2003 and 83 games in 2004. He played 128 games in a rebound to form and mostly good health in 2005.

Some have speculated that a switch to first base would save Griffey's legs from injury, but he disagreed.

"You can get hurt anywhere," he said.

Griffey, who started Wednesday's game in his usual center-field spot while batting third, said he wasn't reaping extra satisfaction from proving people wrong on the field.

"If I can get to it, I'll get to it. If there's a wall there, I'll run through a wall," Griffey said. "I play baseball at one speed. It's the only way I know how to play."

[KronoRed]

I don't think a defensive switch would keep him anymore healthy, would just help the teams D that's all.

[mole44]

I don't think a defensive switch would keep him anymore healthy, would just help the teams D that's all.
Last time I checked, we could use all the help we can get

[edabbs44]

I don't think a defensive switch would keep him anymore healthy, would just help the teams D that's all.
Personally, I think it would do both. There is a lot more running involved in CF and it is going to take its toll on his legs. It happens every year. Think about it...out of these 3 guys, who do you see doing the most running in the OF? Dunn, Griffey or Kearns?

[jimbo]

Personally, I think it would do both. There is a lot more running involved in CF and it is going to take its toll on his legs. It happens every year. Think about it...out of these 3 guys, who do you see doing the most running in the OF? Dunn, Griffey or Kearns?

But don't you think he knows what is best for him and his team more than any of us do? I take the man for his word when he says he would never do anything to hurt the team because he's never given me any reason to think otherwise. Some like to make him up as being a selfish player, I feel the opposite. If he thought his legs couldn't hold up to playing center and would be risking an extended absence from the team, I really feel he would volunteer a position move.

This subject has been hammered into the ground since he went on the DL. Let's just move on and accept he isn't going anywhere for the time being because Griffey himself and the powers to be seem a lot less concerned about it.

[edabbs44]

But don't you think he knows what is best for him and his team more than any of us do? I take the man for his word when he says he would never do anything to hurt the team because he's never given me any reason to think otherwise. Some like to make him up as being a selfish player, I feel the opposite. If he thought his legs couldn't hold up to playing center and would be risking an extended absence from the team, I really feel he would volunteer a position move.

This subject has been hammered into the ground since he went on the DL. Let's just move on and accept he isn't going anywhere for the time being because Griffey himself and the powers to be seem a lot less concerned about it.
I agree that the subject is getting old. But sometimes when great players start to age, they refuse to admit that they are losing a step. Jr's seasons since he came to Ohio seem to always end with him on the operating table. Mostly the surgeries take place on his legs. The guy had a little tightness behind his knee earlier this year and he was out for a month. Don't you think they should be saving him a little?

Here's a better question...if the Reds were an AL team, do you think Griffey would see any time as the DH? 20 games? 40 games?

[jimbo]

I agree that the subject is getting old. But sometimes when great players start to age, they refuse to admit that they are losing a step. Jr's seasons since he came to Ohio seem to always end with him on the operating table. Mostly the surgeries take place on his legs. The guy had a little tightness behind his knee earlier this year and he was out for a month. Don't you think they should be saving him a little?

Here's a better question...if the Reds were an AL team, do you think Griffey would see any time as the DH? 20 games? 40 games?

I understand what you are saying, and you are right when it comes to certain players. I don't think Junior will be the type of player who will keep playing when he isn't capable of doing what he used to. It is obvious that he still can. He came back from an injury last season that a lot of players would have had to retire from and played what, 130 games? I'll take that at this point. It is what it is, he's an aging veteran who will get hurt whether he is in left, center, or first.

Protecting him is one thing, babying him is another.

[KoryMac5]

Griffey is swinging the bat well, is healthy and playing some good D. Lets enjoy this Hall of Famer while we still have a chance in his rightful position patrolling centerfield.

[NastyBoy]

Did I miss something? Is there a CF just waiting in the wings that has won 10 gold gloves?

They should ask Billy Hall if Griffey can still play defense. The camera shot of him walking back to the bench looking out at centerfield was priceless.

[flyer85]

I guess Jr is not interested in entertaining a position change


Angry Griffey takes his swings at media critics

By Hal McCoy

CINCINNATI | Ken Griffey Jr. was one angry outfielder Wednesday as he sat in front of his locker venting about The Two Angry Guys, the radio talk-show hosts who said Griffey is better suited to play left field or first base, and that such a move would better serve the Cincinnati Reds.

And he included a newspaper columnist who wrote that Griffey was no more than a good outfielder.

"For somebody who has not played this game to criticize me and make judgments is not right," he said. "I'm just tired of hearing it. All I want to do is go out and play baseball. That's it."

The mini-controversy began when the team was in Detroit last weekend, and Griffey had difficulty locating a shallow pop fly, which then fell in front of him.

"So that means I can't play, because one ball fell in front of me in the toughest sun field in baseball (Comerica Park)?" he said. "You can't see early in the game. When have you ever seen me wear sunglasses instead of flip-downs? I wore 'em in Detroit.

"Until somebody goes out and looks at the outfield, it's easy to criticize somebody and not be out there, like, 'You should have caught that ball.' It ain't like I'm not trying. I'm just tired of it, that's all."

After the criticism on the radio and in a newspaper column, Griffey made three gaudy catches Monday and Tuesday and hit a pair of three-run home runs, almost an in-your-face statement, although he said negativism doesn't fuel his fire.

"To be judged after playing eight games (after coming off the disabled list, where he was for three weeks with a knee injury), after I busted my butt getting back, it's horse-crap."

Asked about switching from center field to left field or first base, Griffey said, "If I felt I was going to hurt this team, do you think I wouldn't say OK?"

And, no, he hasn't been asked.

"If I can get to it, I'll get to it. If I have to run into a bloomin' wall, I'll run into a bloomin' wall. I play baseball at one speed — all-out. I don't half-butt it, because I have to face 24 guys in this clubhouse every day."

Griffey was smiling during early batting practice, before he addressed his issues, then was smiling later after getting it off his mind.

"Sometimes you have bad days. You have bad days, I have bad days and you just don't want to talk," he said.

"What you guys say and write doesn't just stay in this clubhouse. I have to live it, I have to go places, normal places like the grocery store and hear it (repeated). I can't do anything but hold my head up high and keep moving. You don't have to have your kids listen to other kids repeat it."

All Griffey wants to do is hit, run and field — in center field.

[oneupper]

I don't like that Jr gets over-sensitive to criticism. It's too Bonds-like.

[EKURed]

I don't like that Jr gets over-sensitive to criticism. It's too Bonds-like.

He does care what people think about him...

[flyer85]

He does care what people think about him...but people he doesn't even know.

this seems like the proper attitude

Adam Dunn, another favorite sports-talk whipping boy, said he's surprised Griffey let the critics bother him.

"Why does he care?" Dunn said. "I haven't listened one time."

For those that would like to see Jr out of CF it looks like it he will have to dragged out of there.

[edabbs44]

but people he doesn't even know.

this seems like the proper attitude


For those that would like to see Jr out of CF it looks like it he will have to dragged out of there.

Hopefully not on a gurney...

[beb30]

Id care what people thought about me......

[GAC]

But don't you think he knows what is best for him and his team more than any of us do? I take the man for his word when he says he would never do anything to hurt the team because he's never given me any reason to think otherwise. Some like to make him up as being a selfish player, I feel the opposite. If he thought his legs couldn't hold up to playing center and would be risking an extended absence from the team, I really feel he would volunteer a position move.

This subject has been hammered into the ground since he went on the DL. Let's just move on and accept he isn't going anywhere for the time being because Griffey himself and the powers to be seem a lot less concerned about it.

Good post, and I wholeheartedly agree. And the defensive gems he has turned in over the last week should quiet the naysayers who contend that he is hurting us defensively in CF and can no longer play the position.... but it won't. Wait till a ball drops in CF that THEY think he should have had.

Of course, I don't know of any All-Star and future HOF CFers who are currently posting on Redszone.

I've come to realize that most fans could have probably gotten to the ball and made the play. :lol:

You shut up your critics by doing what they say you can't. And I think that really has motivated Jr since his return.

So now they'll take credit. ;)

[Krusty]

Junior has to realize that this era gives fans more of a voice and opinion with the numerous talk shows out there and the internet. He has to realize that this is part of the game now.

Heck, we have battled each other with our opinions in regards to players and the team. We might not agree with each other but with this forum and internet, we are able to discuss our love for the Reds where 20 years ago you would be lucky just to see the boxscore in your daily newspaper.

It amazes me Junior would be so thin-skin over criticism from people who most likely never played professional baseball.

[flyer85]

And the defensive gems he has turned in over the last week should quiet the naysayers who contend that he is hurting us defensively in CF and can no longer play the position You realize that you have built a strawman and completely misrepresented the position of those who want to see Jr move to another position.

[Roy Tucker]

The Enquirer version of the story..

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060525/SPT04/605250350

Griffey fires back at critics
Career center fielder angry about suggestions he switch positions
BY JOHN FAY | ENQUIRER STAFF WRITER

Reds center fielder Ken Griffey Jr. decided to talk to the media again Wednesday - largely to explain why he didn't talk to reporters Monday and Tuesday.

Griffey said he's angry over suggestions made by sports-talk radio show callers that he should move from center field to left field or first base.

"If I was hurting the team, (I'd move)," he said.

Griffey singled out the "Two Angry Guys" - Tom Gamble and Richard Skinner - who can be heard weekday mornings on WCKY-AM (1360).

"For somebody who can't play this (expletive) game to sit there and criticize me ..." he said.

"What you guys fail to realize is what you guys write doesn't just stay in the clubhouse," Griffey continued. "I have to live with it. I have to go places. I have to go to the grocery store.

"The only thing I can do is hold my head high and keep walking."

Gamble said he is shocked at the uproar.

"I am," he said. "We've been Ken Griffey Jr. proponents. I'm stunned because we never made the statement that he is incapable of playing center field.

"Our whole thing is it's in the best interest of the Reds to have Ken Griffey Jr. in the lineup.

"In our estimation - based on the last few years - is you get more wear and tear from center field than anywhere else."

Griffey skipped postgame media sessions Monday and Tuesday after terrific games against Milwaukee.

Griffey hit a three-run homer in each game.

He also made two very good catches on Monday and a sensational catch on Tuesday.

But he failed to reach two balls Saturday night in Detroit's big outfield. That game was his eighth after returning from the disabled list, where he spent nearly a month with strained tendon in his knee.

"All I want to do is go out and play baseball," Griffey said. "To be judged after eight games is horse (manure).

"It's easy for people to criticize somebody and not be out in the outfield," Griffey said. "He should have caught that ball ... Like I'm not trying.

"I'm tired of it. That's all."

Griffey is particularly angry about talk that he needs to move to first base or left field.

Adam Dunn, another favorite sports-talk whipping boy, said he's surprised Griffey let the critics bother him.

"Why does he care?" Dunn said. "I haven't listened one time."

Griffey said he doesn't listen to sports talk, either, but what is said gets back to him.

"I grew up here," he said. "I have friends here ... I hear it from them."

Griffey's relationship with media members who cover the team has been excellent the last two years.

The local chapter of the Baseball Writers' Association of America gave him the Joe Nuxhall Good Guy award for the 2005 season, and named him the team's most valuable player.

But Griffey's relationship with the media during his first two years in Cincinnati was, at times, contentious.

Some complaints he had then resurfaced Wednesday.

"You have no idea what I've gone through," Griffey said. "How many surgeries have I had since I've been here? Let's start off with the obvious: ankle, knee, hamstring, shoulder. How many follow-up surgeries?

"Nobody knows what I go through day in, day out."

For radio talkers to question his effort after that thoroughly ticks him off.

"If I can get to it (in the outfield), I'll get to it," he said. "If I have to run through a wall, I will ... I play baseball at one speed. That's the only way I know how to play.

"Anybody who thinks I go out and (give half effort is crazy)," he said. "I've got 24 other guys in this locker room to deal with."

E-mail jfay@enquirer.com

[edabbs44]

I'm looking towards the future and not if Jr made a sliding play in CF. Why wait until he has another injury to try to prolong his career? He has endured a serious injury pretty much every year since arriving in Cincy. The guy is obviously a HUGE asset to the team. Why even risk it?

If Jr hits a ground ball to an infielder, he barely jogs down to first. My opinion is that I can accept that, since 99.9% of the time it is an out and I don't want to see him collapse before he gets there. But why does he do that? Is he lazy or is he worried about getting injured?

[oneupper]

He does care what people think about him...

Bonds cares...that's the problem.
He wants everyone to love him as the jerk he is.

Jr should just answer the questions and not play the victim.

[Roy Tucker]

My own 2 cents....

I love Junior and I've never questioned his dedication or effort. The guy busts his butt to recover from injuries and rehab, gives it his all during games, plays hurt for the good of the team, etc etc.
But effort and dedication are eventually defeated by Father Time. And I think the sum total of injuries and time have slowed him down. Like what's been discussed in here ad nauseum, Junior doesn't get to balls that other CF would. Not from lack of effort or will, he just doesn't have the wheels.

But I think we're seeing the stung pride of an All-Century player. And after this stink, I don't think we'll see any move out of CF for Junior.

Having said all that, he's been running better that last couple weeks. Much more free and easy and has shown some speed baserunning that I hadn't seen in a while.

[oneupper]

I'm looking towards the future and not if Jr made a sliding play in CF. Why wait until he has another injury to try to prolong his career? He has endured a serious injury pretty much every year since arriving in Cincy. The guy is obviously a HUGE asset to the team. Why even risk it?

If Jr hits a ground ball to an infielder, he barely jogs down to first. My opinion is that I can accept that, since 99.9% of the time it is an out and I don't want to see him collapse before he gets there. But why does he do that? Is he lazy or is he worried about getting injured?

Everyone is replaceable. Jr should play all out in the field because that is the job description. If he gets hurt, put him on the DL and move on.

[TeamBoone]

One of the Angry Guys claims there was no Griffey talk on Monday's show; didn't someone report somewhere here on the board that they heard it? Am I all wet?

Marc Lancaster's version:


05-25-2006

Angry Griffey makes his case
Criticism stings All-Star's pride
By Marc Lancaster / Post staff reporter

For the second consecutive day at Great American Ball Park, Ken Griffey Jr.'s state of mind was a topic of discussion, as a he-said/they-said skirmish over what the All-Star center fielder should be doing and why he should care about what anyone else thinks continued to play out.

Griffey declined to speak to the media after his standout performance in Tuesday night's victory over the Brewers, purportedly because he was upset about suggestions on local sports-talk radio that he should move to left field or first base because he can no longer adequately cover ground in center.

He took specific issue with the "Two Angry Guys," Richard Skinner and Tom Gamble, whose morning drive-time show airs on WCKY-AM (1360).

"Until somebody goes out there and has to look at what I have to look at out in the outfield - it's easy for people to criticize somebody and not be out there," Griffey said Wednesday. "'You should have caught that ball.' Well, it ain't like I'm not trying."

According to Skinner, he and his radio partner - both former Post sports reporters - were mystified when they heard Wednesday morning that Griffey was upset with them. Skinner said there was no discussion on Monday's show about Griffey, though the player apparently had heard that there was.

Skinner said the topic of Griffey changing positions was last raised a couple of weeks ago, when he and Gamble read a quote from the player in a newspaper article. Asked in that story if he would switch positions, Griffey replied, "Would you change jobs?" Skinner said he criticized Griffey on the air for that remark.

"I thought that was weak, I thought it was soft, I thought it was completely out of the realm of a team player who should ask, 'What can I do to make this ballclub better?'" Skinner said Wednesday night. "But at the end of the day, the only opinion that matters is Jerry Narron's and Wayne Krivsky's. If he is bent out of shape about my subjective opinion, he needs to grow up."

Asked Wednesday why he doesn't just ignore criticism from those outside the game, Griffey cited professional pride.

"I work hard at what I do," he said. "And somebody who can't play this (bleeping) game is (criticizing me)? See, what you guys don't realize is what you guys write or say doesn't just stay in the clubhouse. I have to live it. I have to go places, I have to do normal things like go to the grocery store, and I hear it. And I can't do anything but just hold my head up high and keep moving."

Griffey also mentioned the litany of injuries and surgeries he has endured in recent years, most recently the strained ligament behind his right knee that kept him out for nearly a month earlier this season. It went without saying that the 18-year major league veteran doesn't cover as much ground as he used to, but he was adamant that he was not insisting upon staying in center field out of vanity.

"If I felt that I was going to hurt this team, don't you think I would say OK?" he said, before going on to add that he could just as easily suffer another injury playing left field or first base.

"All I want to do is go out and play baseball - that's it," he said. "To be judged after eight games (back from the disabled list) after I busted my ass getting back, I think it's horse----."

Griffey backed up that assertion with his play in the field Monday and Tuesday night, when he made three spectacular catches - one coming in and two racing to the fence - that recalled his days as an annual Gold Glove winner in Seattle.

He said he wasn't trying to prove anything to anyone, just doing his job.

"If I can get to it, I can get to it. If there's a wall there, I'll run into the (bleeping) wall," said Griffey. "I play baseball one speed. That's the only way I know how to (bleeping) play. If anybody thinks I go out there and half-ass it? No. Because I've got to deal with 24 other guys in this locker room."

Skinner saw those catches and acknowledged them, while sticking to his guns on his suggestion that Griffey move elsewhere.

"My subjective opinion is, Junior should move to left, to the betterment of him and the club," said Skinner. "It's possible I'm not right - it's very possible I'm not right. To his credit, Monday and Tuesday night, he proved everybody - Tom and I included - wrong. I hope he does that almost every day through Sept. 30. I hope that, I really do. I hope I'm eating crow come Sept. 30."

Skinner added that it was not his and Gamble's intention to "stir the pot," but to generate topics of conversation for their radio show, and they believe a possible position change for Griffey is fair game.

Of course, their opinions and those of the fan base in general have no bearing on any of the Reds' baseball-related decisions. They know that, and Griffey does, too.

So why the fuss?

"It's nothing new," said Griffey. "I'm just tired of it, that's all."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060525/SPT05/605250320/1027

[registerthis]

Why pay attention to anything that comes from some people calling themselves "The Angry Guys"?

[gonelong]

Good post, and I wholeheartedly agree. And the defensive gems he has turned in over the last week should quiet the naysayers who contend that he is hurting us defensively in CF and can no longer play the position.... but it won't. Wait till a ball drops in CF that THEY think he should have had.

I watched as some of my favorite players tried to play on but just couldn't cut the mustard anymore, and we all knew it before they did. Bench, Concepcion, Rose, and more recently Larkin.

Griffey is on the downward slope of his career. Anybody that watched him in the 90's can see he doesn't have the range he once had. I am sure we can all agree on that as "the kid" is now in his mid-30s with multiple leg injuries.

The only thing left to contend, is how much range does he have left. At this point my eyes tell me Jr is the weakest CF we have on the roster, and subjective number seem to indicate this as well.

Frankly, I can't understand how people can watch Jr in CF and come to the conclusion he is still effective.

GL

[Highlifeman21]

Did I miss something? Is there a CF just waiting in the wings that has won 10 gold gloves?

They should ask Billy Hall if Griffey can still play defense. The camera shot of him walking back to the bench looking out at centerfield was priceless.


When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

KGJ needs to realize that he's out of touch with reality and try out LF to give him and his team a competitive advantage.

Chris Denorfia, you're needed from Louisville.

[traderumor]

One thing Griffey has wrong is that this is coming up after he worked his butt off to come back from the most recent injury. The request has been made here for going on two years. It's simply a position that requires speed to play at the major league level, which he no longer has. It's not his fault, it's not a dig on him, he simply no longer has the speed that the position requires.

[registerthis]

KGJ needs to realize that he's out of touch with reality and try out LF to give him and his team a competitive advantage.

Gold Gloves are hardly the benchmark I would use when analyzing a player's defensive prowess. Rafael Palmeiro once earned a gold glove at first despite playing only 20 games there. Ozzie Smith continued to win gold gloves long after it was apparent that larkin was the better player. And so on and so forth.

I don't think there's any argument that Junior's lost some steps in the OF, I just wouldn't be using gold gloves to justify it.

[6-4-3]

Rome has been banging on JR the whole 1st hour today, basically discussing all this.

[Highlifeman21]

Gold Gloves are hardly the benchmark I would use when analyzing a player's defensive prowess. Rafael Palmeiro once earned a gold glove at first despite playing only 20 games there. Ozzie Smith continued to win gold gloves long after it was apparent that larkin was the better player. And so on and so forth.

I don't think there's any argument that Junior's lost some steps in the OF, I just wouldn't be using gold gloves to justify it.

I agree, Gold Gloves are smoke and mirrors. How many does Bonds need to give back?!

I was just replying to IIRC NastyBoy's thought that moving KGJ out of CF takes away his Gold Glove caliber play.

Junior has lost some steps and I think he still has great instincts, takes great routes to balls, it's just that his body can't do what his mind wants out of him. I'm still not sold that he has the arm he had in Seattle.

[registerthis]

I was just replying to IIRC NastyBoy's thought that moving KGJ out of CF takes away his Gold Glove caliber play.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry, hadn't noticed that.

[oneupper]

Rome has been banging on JR the whole 1st hour today, basically discussing all this.

Just Great. Now the issue will never be taken serioulsy. :rolleyes:

[redsfan30]

Rome has been banging on JR the whole 1st hour today, basically discussing all this.
What a surprise.

:rolleyes:

Every year, we have to battle a public firestorm with Junior, and we are right smack dab in the middle of the 2006 version.

[jimbo]

It amazes me Junior would be so thin-skin over criticism from people who most likely never played professional baseball.

Yet, who are we to criticize Junior's personality? He's "thin-skinned," that's just who he is. It bothers him to hear it because he knows in his heart how hard he has worked through injuries to continue to do what he still does. I think what bothers him the most is what his kids hear about their dad. Anyone who has kids could understand that.

It might be different if the criticism was warranted, but most of it thrown towards Junior's way is usually crap and he always proves it wrong.

[jimbo]

The only thing left to contend, is how much range does he have left. At this point my eyes tell me Jr is the weakest CF we have on the roster, and subjective number seem to indicate this as well.

GL

His range may have be diminished, but to call him the weakest CF on the roster is......well, not true. There is more to playing the outfield than range and Junior's experience makes up for what he has lost in his legs. In my opinion, he is still the best CF on the roster.......and yes, even the great Freel.

[NastyBoy]

When was the last time KGJ won a Gold Glove?

KGJ needs to realize that he's out of touch with reality and try out LF to give him and his team a competitive advantage.

Chris Denorfia, you're needed from Louisville.

You are right... he has not won one recently. Pedro Martinez has't won a Cy Young recently, but I would still love to have him on our team.

[redsfan4445]

What bothers me is I am aHUGE Griffey Jr fan and here he has 2 great games and soembody in the media has to bang on him. sometimes i think its racial.. if he were white like LaRue (Who isnt even worth his money!!!!) nothing would be said.. heck Dunn is WAY worse a outfielder, dont see the media banging on him to move to 1st... etc...and he just had a leg injury ANYONE would be alittle tenative knowing howe he cant sneeze without getting hammerd in the media about it... these same media darlings would be BASHING Jr. if he said in 99 he wanted to go to Atlanta for 17 million a year and would have called him a jerk for going only for the money.. but did he?? NO. he wanted to play here where he grew up and play for the team his father did... its not his fault the darn front office let the pitching go to crap and when we were off to good starts did ZERO at the trade deadline to help this team... remeber when we had the chance to get Bartolo Colon and Scott Rolen at the same time?? must be Juniors fault.. cant be Linders who didnt give a dang what the Reds did,.. NOW we have a owner that wants to win and not hear how Juniors salary is the problem.. it isnt.. he is CHEAP compared to anyone else that this team could get.. think we could get Andrew Jones for 12 million a year?? HAHA NOOOOOOOOO.. or you think any top player would want to come here with the high expectations this media and so-called fans have here??? Bet if Dunn was black.. he would be bashed alot worse... so this is my opinion.. Junior cant play all 9 positions and pitch too... but i will say take Junior off this team,, we dont score as much runs because other players in the lineup benefit..just look at Phiilips in front of him.. he gets way better pitches to hit and it shows... hell i would pitch around JR with men on base before i would Dunn!!! i just wish the media here would think first... you can tell Jr is getting his legs back. you dont turn on a 100 MPH fastball without your legs and hit a homerun... let him alone and focus on areas of true weakness.. Adam Dunn in LF, LaRue behind the plate and his weak hitting...hmm didnt see Jason getting bashed for hiting .188.. and our bullpen. thats the wek areas... and Freel might be faster in CF, but who you think other teams managers would rather pitch too?? Freel or Griffey??? enough said!

[registerthis]

What bothers me is I am aHUGE Griffey Jr fan and here he has 2 great games and soembody in the media has to bang on him. sometimes i think its racial..

Oh come on.

[Johnny Footstool]

A few great plays versus a few seasons' worth of data.

We're not talking about one or two balls that fell in front of him. We're talking about three season's worth of balls that a normal CF would have gotten to, but Junior couldn't.

No one is questioning his heart, his effort, or his skill. We're questioning his speed, plain and simple.

At age 36, after all those knee injuries, Junior simply can't run very fast any more, and speed is a key to playing CF.

[redsfan4445]

A few great plays versus a few seasons' worth of data.

We're not talking about one or two balls that fell in front of him. We're talking about three season's worth of balls that a normal CF would have gotten to, but Junior couldn't.

No one is questioning his heart, his effort, or his skill. We're questioning his speed, plain and simple.

At age 36, after all those knee injuries, Junior simply can't run very fast any more, and speed is a key to playing CF.

So what is the excuse for a young Adam Dunn in LF that cant get to some flyballs that shoudl be caught??

[jimbo]

I understand your frustration, but I doubt it's a racial issue. Dunn gets bashed A LOT on these forums and so does LaRue for that matter. There has been plenty of discussion on moving Dunn to first, calling it racial is out of line in my opinion.

[redsfan4445]

i was meaning the media.. not on this board... just was my thoughts on it is all.. if i offened anyone i appologize

[edabbs44]

i was meaning the media.. not on this board... just was my thoughts on it is all.. if i offened anyone i appologize
I think it is more factual than racial.

And a few other things from your earlier post:

1) No one wants Griffey out of the lineup...just out of CF.

2) Dunn gets bashed plenty for his defensive shortcomings.

3) No one blames Jr for anything except that his range in CF is limited.

4) It is obvious most of the teams problems lie in the pitching staff.

5) Jr was one of the best players in the league and now he is a very good to great player. But sometimes you just have to accept when you can't perform at the level you are used to in certain aspects of the game. Remember when Larkin almost got traded to the Mets and the fans went nuts? He declined and then was signed to a 3 yr, $27 mil deal and everyone was happy because he was Barry Larkin? That contract was an albatross and hurt the Reds in the long run. So sometimes you have to swallow your pride and suck it up. The best thing about the article was that Jr said if he thought he was hurting the team then he would be fine with a move. Guess what Jr, it shouldn't be your call.

[redhawkfish]

What level of ball do you have to have played to have an opinion? I am so sick of athletes using the "you never played the game" crap. I refuse to listen to Tracy Jones or Bob Trumpy because of that stupid phrase! I will hold my opinion on Junior because I only played NAIA ball!:rolleyes: :thumbdown

[Highlifeman21]

You are right... he has not won one recently. Pedro Martinez has't won a Cy Young recently, but I would still love to have him on our team.


Apples and Oranges, but I know what you mean. Pedro's a proven talent. KGJ is a proven talent, offensively. Since he's been a Red, injuries have slowed him physically, so that while all the instincts are still there, the body can't keep up.

With how much everyone like to take shots at Dunn defensively in LF, giving KGJ the job over there means we have someone more instinctively beneficial to play the corner, and then we can let Denorfia or Freel run all day and all night in CF.

I'm also curious to see what kind of impact Kearns could have in CF. I think he has the range for it, although his arm would be wasted in CF, IMO.

[BuckWoody]

The bottom line in this whole situation is that Kenny is just overly sensitive to what others say about him. I lay the blame for this recent brew-ha at his feet but, having said that, I don't think it is that big of a deal. He hasn't refused a request from management to switch positions; he has simply overreacted to the opinions of the fans and the media...again. At this point, the people clamoring for a move to LF have a beef with the Reds management, not KGJ. If he is asked to move and refuses, then we have a whole new story.

I love Griffey, always have and always will. This is just part of the whole package...one of the few if not the only part that is negative.

[TeamBoone]

Rome has been banging on JR the whole 1st hour today, basically discussing all this.

Oh great. Now the local story has gone national. That will make Jr really happy.



Originally Posted by redsfan4445
What bothers me is I am aHUGE Griffey Jr fan and here he has 2 great games and soembody in the media has to bang on him. sometimes i think its racial..

I don't buy this one for a second. If it were true, they'd be ragging on every black guy playing college level and/or professional level sports in Cincinnati.

They just don't think they're doing their job unless they're stirring up a hornet's nest.

[REDREAD]

What bothers me is I am aHUGE Griffey Jr fan and here he has 2 great games and soembody in the media has to bang on him...

Yes, that and the percieved giant salary (which isn't that much for a player of his statue, even John Allen called it a bargain, since 1/2 of it is deferred).

Jr is an easy target for people to rile up. He can't change that about himself, but it will keep the sportstalk people egging him on.

[gonelong]

His range may have be diminished, but to call him the weakest CF on the roster is......well, not true.

By what standard?

At this point its my opinion that he is the weakest CF on the roster. Objective data (as much stock as we might put into it) would seem to indicate the same thing.


There is more to playing the outfield than range and Junior's experience makes up for what he has lost in his legs. In my opinion, he is still the best CF on the roster.......and yes, even the great Freel.

Experience makes up for some lack of speed, no doubt. At what point will it no longer though? Last season, this season, next season, 2008? At some point Jr's speed will be so diminished no amount of experience will make up for it. We are only debating when that time has, or will come.

IMO it has already passed him by.

GL

[gonelong]

So what is the excuse for a young Adam Dunn in LF that cant get to some flyballs that shoudl be caught??

There is none, he is a medicre at best LF, however LF does not have the defensive significance that CF has. You can hide a weak defender in LF, you can't hide one in CF.

Its hardly like Dunn skates on this note, a large portion of the board would like to see Dunn to 1B and Jr to Left, with Freel/Denorfia to CF. You likely improve the defense of CF, LF, and come out with a wash at 1B. Certainly you'd improve the overall defense while keeping Dunn and Jrs bats in the lineup, and hopefully keeping Jr a bit fresher as a nice bonus.

GL

[jimbo]

By what standard?

At this point its my opinion that he is the weakest CF on the roster. Objective data (as much stock as we might put into it) would seem to indicate the same thing.



Experience makes up for some lack of speed, no doubt. At what point will it no longer though? Last season, this season, next season, 2008? At some point Jr's speed will be so diminished no amount of experience will make up for it. We are only debating when that time has, or will come.

IMO it has already passed him by.

GL


Ok, I respect your opinion....I just do not agree. I am not questioning whether or not he has lost some of his speed. At the same time, I do question how many claim he has basically lost it. If Junior misplays one flyball, as what happened in Detroit, many here will automatically say he's lost it, and I think that's what some are doing. There is only one other player on the team that can play a good CF and that is Freel. If I had the choice between the two of them in a crucial late inning play though, I'd take Junior hands down.

As far as when his experience no longer makes up for his lack of range, who cares? I am only concerned about this season and I've seen nothing in Junior's play that convinces me that he is currently the worst CF on the roster.

[gonelong]

Ok, I respect your opinion....I just do not agree. I am not questioning whether or not he has lost some of his speed.

Cool.


At the same time, I do question how many claim he has basically lost it.

He didn't lose it IMO, it eroded.


If Junior misplays one flyball, as what happened in Detroit, many here will automatically say he's lost it, and I think that's what some are doing.

You will always have that subset of fans that claim a player is great/sucks based on what he did last night. However, the discussion of Jr's lack of range in CF has been an ongoing topic over the last several years here. Its not knee-jerk.


There is only one other player on the team that can play a good CF and that is Freel. If I had the choice between the two of them in a crucial late inning play though, I'd take Junior hands down.

I'd have a job-share of CF with Freel & Denorfia. That'd put Jr in LF in my world. I'd take the late inning play of JR in LF and Freel in CF over Dunn in LF and Jr in CF.


As far as when his experience no longer makes up for his lack of range, who cares? I am only concerned about this season and I've seen nothing in Junior's play that convinces me that he is currently the worst CF on the roster.

I care because I think its already the case. We'll just have to disagree.

GL

[Cyclone792]

Ok, I respect your opinion....I just do not agree. I am not questioning whether or not he has lost some of his speed. At the same time, I do question how many claim he has basically lost it. If Junior misplays one flyball, as what happened in Detroit, many here will automatically say he's lost it, and I think that's what some are doing. There is only one other player on the team that can play a good CF and that is Freel. If I had the choice between the two of them in a crucial late inning play though, I'd take Junior hands down.

As far as when his experience no longer makes up for his lack of range, who cares? I am only concerned about this season and I've seen nothing in Junior's play that convinces me that he is currently the worst CF on the roster.


Fielding Runs Above Average per 162 games since 2000 ...

2000: 6.7
2001: -20.43
2002: -20.83
2003: -12.23
2004: -9.76
2005: -20.25
2006: -15.43

There's better metrics out there, but BP's fielding runs above average is quick'n easy to pull up. Basically, according to their fielding runs method, Griffey's been well below average since the 2000 season. Due to age, injuries, etc., this is a trend that's just not going to reverse itself. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is.

I'm not looking at a handful of games or plays here or there; I'm trying to look at the trends for the past five or six seasons. In 2000, he was a very solid defensive center fielder for us. Since then, and since his crippling injuries began to surface, his defensive prowess has greatly diminished to the point that he's hurting the team defensively by playing center field.

The only concern regarding Griffey that the Reds need to look at is what's the best formula for actually winning games. So long as we have Griffey, that formula is A) having his bat in the lineup, and B) moving him out of center field and into either left field or first base so that we can field the highest caliber defense that we can possibly field. The more runs the defense can prevent, the more wins the team collects over the course of the season, and that's what should be the highest priority for running our current roster.

EDIT: Also, FWIW, TangoTiger has UZR up from a few seasons ago, including the Reds. From 2000-2003, Griffey averaged -19 runs above average per 162 games in UZR. What that tells me is that BP's fielding runs may actually be a darn good indicator of his defensive value since it matches up quite well with what UZR was saying.

[reds44]

Wow I haven't seen Griffey that mad in a very long time. All I can say is I defended the guy all season long until watching him play in Comerica. It wasn't the sun play, but there was more then a few times he should have caught balls that he didn't.

Now I have to pose the question. The last few days he has played very good defense. I haven't seen many balls, if any that he didn't get to that Freel would have. Is he going harder the past few days then he was before? Is he feeling 100% now or has the talk actually got to him?

I love Junior, but it would be better for him and the Reds if he swtiched positions. The facts prove that he is hurting the team in Center. He is a 36 year old power hitting Center Fielder, unless you are some freak of nature, when you are 36 and a power hitter you normally won't have the range to play center. Like I said I love Junior and I am not bashing him, but he needs to change positions. At this point in his career Junior shouldn't have to worry about playing center, he should be worring about driving in runs and staying healthy. Something he can do much better in left.

Now if he keeps what he has done the past few days up for a month, my opinon could change, but I don't he does.

[Johnny Footstool]

So what is the excuse for a young Adam Dunn in LF that cant get to some flyballs that shoudl be caught??

His excuse is that he's not a good fielder. He doesn't profess to be, so that doesn't bother me. Everyone knows his defense hurts the team. If he started making claims that he was a great defender, I'd take exception.

[Johnny Footstool]

What level of ball do you have to have played to have an opinion? I am so sick of athletes using the "you never played the game" crap. I refuse to listen to Tracy Jones or Bob Trumpy because of that stupid phrase! I will hold my opinion on Junior because I only played NAIA ball!:rolleyes: :thumbdown

I agree.

I always compare it to a musician saying, "How dare you criticize my two-hour rock opera based on the life of James Garfield? You don't even play guitar!"

[jimbo]

Fielding Runs Above Average per 162 games since 2000 ...

2000: 6.7
2001: -20.43
2002: -20.83
2003: -12.23
2004: -9.76
2005: -20.25
2006: -15.43

There's better metrics out there, but BP's fielding runs above average is quick'n easy to pull up. Basically, according to their fielding runs method, Griffey's been well below average since the 2000 season. Due to age, injuries, etc., this is a trend that's just not going to reverse itself. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way it is.

I'm not looking at a handful of games or plays here or there; I'm trying to look at the trends for the past five or six seasons. In 2000, he was a very solid defensive center fielder for us. Since then, and since his crippling injuries began to surface, his defensive prowess has greatly diminished to the point that he's hurting the team defensively by playing center field.

The only concern regarding Griffey that the Reds need to look at is what's the best formula for actually winning games. So long as we have Griffey, that formula is A) having his bat in the lineup, and B) moving him out of center field and into either left field or first base so that we can field the highest caliber defense that we can possibly field. The more runs the defense can prevent, the more wins the team collects over the course of the season, and that's what should be the highest priority for running our current roster.

EDIT: Also, FWIW, TangoTiger has UZR up from a few seasons ago, including the Reds. From 2000-2003, Griffey averaged -19 runs above average per 162 games in UZR. What that tells me is that BP's fielding runs may actually be a darn good indicator of his defensive value since it matches up quite well with what UZR was saying.


I can't comment on the fielding numbers you are posting because I am not familiar with them. The few defensive models that are supposed to measure individual's fielding abilities that I've seen seem very subjective. Unless it comes down to hard stats, I tend to judge by my own eyes and what I hear from fellow players, coaches and managers. I am not questioning whether Junior has lost some speed and range, I just still believe he is still an above average CF and the strongest one on the roster.

As far as potential position moves for Junior, I am not totally against any of them.....just not mid-season. I am also not in favor of moving Dunn to first. In my eyes, that may strengthen the outfield, but weakens the infield. If Griffey is going to be moved so as to baby him, he should be moved to first and my option for CF would be Denorfia. Not meant to bash Freel, but I do not like him as an everyday CF. With a move to first though, again I don't think it is wise to do it mid-season because he has only played a handful of innings at that position and it was quite a long time ago.

Even though this keeps getting hashed over, the powers to be in the organization do not seem to be in favor of any position moves right now and I have enough faith in Krivsky and co. to accept that.

[Highlifeman21]

I can't comment on the fielding numbers you are posting because I am not familiar with them. The few defensive models that are supposed to measure individual's fielding abilities that I've seen seem very subjective. Unless it comes down to hard stats, I tend to judge by my own eyes and what I hear from fellow players, coaches and managers. I am not questioning whether Junior has lost some speed and range, I just still believe he is still an above average CF and the strongest one on the roster.

As far as potential position moves for Junior, I am not totally against any of them.....just not mid-season. I am also not in favor of moving Dunn to first. In my eyes, that may strengthen the outfield, but weakens the infield. If Griffey is going to be moved so as to baby him, he should be moved to first and my option for CF would be Denorfia. Not meant to bash Freel, but I do not like him as an everyday CF. With a move to first though, again I don't think it is wise to do it mid-season because he has only played a handful of innings at that position and it was quite a long time ago.

Even though this keeps getting hashed over, the powers to be in the organization do not seem to be in favor of any position moves right now and I have enough faith in Krivsky and co. to accept that.

Dunn is a better career fielder at 1B than LF. Fielding % doesn't lie about that.

I don't. Dunn was supposed to be the everyday 1B in ST. We traded WMP for Arroyo, and all of a sudden it became convenient to plug Dunn back into LF and deal with the Pickin Machine at 1B. I can deal with the Pickin Machine at the dish, but not as a defensive 1B.

Dunn is our best option at 1B. Denorfia is a better option in CF than KGJ right now defensively.

Once the FO wraps its collective heads around this, and moves KGJ to LF and Dunn to 1B, then and only then I'll think WK and Co. have a clue for the future of this organization.

[GAC]

It amazes me Junior would be so thin-skin over criticism from people who most likely never played professional baseball.

Thin-skinned? C'mon Krusty, we both know that this guy has been taking all types of heat and also unfair criticism since he has put on a Red's uniform.

Injuries are frustrating. More frustrating to the player then the fans.

But over the last few years what have the accusations that have been leveled at Jr, and all because he has gotten hurt? And hurt playing hard...

He's lazy and has a poor work ethic.

He's a selfish player, can't play CF, and is therefore not a team player.

I have no problem with him responding to this crap. It would get to anyone after a while.

The guy's human.

[reds44]

Thin-skinned? C'mon Krusty, we both know that this guy has been taking all types of heat and also unfair criticism since he has put on a Red's uniform.

Injuries are frustrating. More frustrating to the player then the fans.

But over the last few years what have the accusations that have been leveled at Jr, and all because he has gotten hurt? And hurt playing hard...

He's lazy and has a poor work ethic.

He's a selfish player, can't play CF, and is therefore not a team player.

I have no problem with him responding to this crap. It would get to anyone after a while.

The guy's human.
If people do that well they are flat out wrong.

You can't critize a guy for getting hurt, it's not usually their fault. I never called Griffey selfish, and I don't think anybody on this board has either.

[GAC]

You realize that you have built a strawman and completely misrepresented the position of those who want to see Jr move to another position.

I don't know what your particular position is on Jr in CF.

But I know what I have listened to and read on this forum this year by many. And I've heard alot say that he is a defensive liability in CF and hurting the team. I've heard screams for Deno and/or Freel every time a flyball drops in front of Jr.

His play this past week, IMO, shows that Jr can still field the position.

So my argument is not about injury risk - you won't get an argument from me on this at all - it's about can he still field the position, and I'll take Jr out there over either Freel or Deno.

Jr doesn't want to be "sheltered" or protected, and has just stated that if he felt he was hurting the team and couldn't do it, then he wouldn't fight it.

I believe him. The guy is still a competitor.

When you can show me definitive/solid evidence that Jr cannot play CF, and not simply an opinion, then I'll quit being an unapologetic defender of Jr. ;)

[GAC]

If people do that well they are flat out wrong.

You can't critize a guy for getting hurt, it's not usually their fault. I never called Griffey selfish, and I don't think anybody on this board has either.

Not simply referring to this forum, though I have heard it thrown out at times by some, but in the local media.

And I'd like to also add that I am not against a position move by Jr at all.

What I disagree with is that he is a defensive liability in CF and can't field the position.

[jimbo]

Dunn is a better career fielder at 1B than LF. Fielding % doesn't lie about that.

I don't. Dunn was supposed to be the everyday 1B in ST. We traded WMP for Arroyo, and all of a sudden it became convenient to plug Dunn back into LF and deal with the Pickin Machine at 1B. I can deal with the Pickin Machine at the dish, but not as a defensive 1B.

Dunn is our best option at 1B. Denorfia is a better option in CF than KGJ right now defensively.

Once the FO wraps its collective heads around this, and moves KGJ to LF and Dunn to 1B, then and only then I'll think WK and Co. have a clue for the future of this organization.

A .986 to .969 fielding percentages between the two positions......not a big difference. Last season he made 4 errors in 251 innings at first while only making 5 in 1091 innings in left. He will be mediocre wherever you put him and if you put him at first it will weaken the infield even more.

I think Krivsky and co. has done a pretty fine job so far and seem to have a good grasp on the future.

[Ltlabner]

Once the FO wraps its collective heads around this, and moves KGJ to LF and Dunn to 1B, then and only then I'll think WK and Co. have a clue for the future of this organization.

Highlifeman21....are you saying that BC and the Kriv don't have a clue about running a baseball club? or just having a clue with regards to the JR/Dunn moves?

[WMR]

Not simply referring to this forum, though I have heard it thrown out at times by some, but in the local media.

And I'd like to also add that I am not against a position move by Jr at all.

What I disagree with is that he is a defensive liability in CF and can't field the position.


Haven't you seen ANY of the statistical analysis provided by Cyclone and others which clearly demonstrates Jr's inability to make outs that 90% of other CF's routinely convert???

[WMR]

Good post, and I wholeheartedly agree. And the defensive gems he has turned in over the last week should quiet the naysayers who contend that he is hurting us defensively in CF and can no longer play the position.... but it won't. Wait till a ball drops in CF that THEY think he should have had.

Of course, I don't know of any All-Star and future HOF CFers who are currently posting on Redszone.

I've come to realize that most fans could have probably gotten to the ball and made the play. :lol:

You shut up your critics by doing what they say you can't. And I think that really has motivated Jr since his return.

So now they'll take credit. ;)

Wow, the old 'you didn't play the game argument.'

Doesn't Tracy Jones get five bucks every time someone uses that crap argument to defend a position?

[GAC]

Wow, the old 'you didn't play the game argument.'

I don't care if Tracy Jones, Joe Morgan, and many other ex-ballplayers have said. They make a very valid point at times (not always). It does get tiring to a ballplayer, especially one of the calibre of a Griffey, to hear people who have probably never played the game (but sit behind a mic), play in a fantasy league, or have a subscription to BP, tell him where he can or should be playing, where he should be in the batting order, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I'd love to see one of these guys walk up to a ballplayer with their statistical analysis sheet and try to "educate" them. Could be interesting. ;)


Haven't you seen ANY of the statistical analysis provided by Cyclone and others which clearly demonstrates Jr's inability to make outs that 90% of other CF's routinely convert

I just went back on this thread (if that is what you are referring) and saw his post. And I have alot of respect for Cyclone. But as it's already been stated (and I agree) it's all pretty subjective.

Now... find someone to interpret it for me. :lol:

But can anyone show me objectve evidence where his play in CF has cost us games?

All I know is that I've watched Jr bust his butt and give it his all when he is in there. Up to this point, and I don't read everything that is posted on this forum, I have not seen any solid evidence presented - but only people's personal opinions on Jr's CF play.

And I'm not too enthralled with the alternatives some would like to see in CF either. ;)

But if he couldn't field his position, then what is the reasoning behind the solid plays he has turned in this past week?

He just got lucky?

[Johnny Footstool]

I don't care if Tracy Jones, Joe Morgan, and many other ex-ballplayers have said. They make a very valid point at times (not always). It does get tiring to a ballplayer, especially one of the calibre of a Griffey, to hear people who have probably never played the game (but sit behind a mic), play in a fantasy league, or have a subscription to BP, tell him where he can or should be playing, where he should be in the batting order, yadda, yadda, yadda.

I'd love to see one of these guys walk up to a ballplayer with their statistical analysis sheet and try to "educate" them. Could be interesting. ;)



I just went back on this thread (if that is what you are referring) and saw his post. And I have alot of respect for Cyclone. But as it's already been stated (and I agree) it's all pretty subjective.

Now... find someone to interpret it for me. :lol:

But can anyone show me objectve evidence where his play in CF has cost us games?

All I know is that I've watched Jr bust his butt and give it his all when he is in there. Up to this point, and I don't read everything that is posted on this forum, I have not seen any solid evidence presented - but only people's personal opinions on Jr's CF play.

And I'm not too enthralled with the alternatives some would like to see in CF either. ;)

But if he couldn't field his position, then what is the reasoning behind the solid plays he has turned in this past week?

He just got lucky?

People have shown a lot of objective evidence that Junior in CF hurts the Reds in terms of giving up runs. The chart Cyclone posted is one example. There are plenty more.

As for the plays he made last week, those were great. Undeniably great. But a few great plays don't make up for all the balls he can't get to anymore.

I'd love to see him making great plays in LF and let Freel and Denorfia run down those shots to the alley in CF.

[WMR]

Junior's diving catches are nice, but the simple truth is that those plays are easily made standing up by most CFs. Well, except for Jim Edmonds.

I think that his ability to make such spectacular catches on balls that he CAN reach should be an even bigger argument IN SUPPORT of moving him to LF.

His glaring lack of range is minimized while his ability to make wonderful plays on balls that he CAN reach is maximized.

[REDSEER]

I was on my way home from a high school baseball game last night, when, listening to ESPN radio, this very topic came up. The analysts on the show seemed to be very one-sided with Griffey, saying that he "is still one of the elite centerfielders in baseball."

Of course, at the time, I'm wondering if they have watched that many Reds games this year. It's obvious that the glove is still there for Jr., but he has also lost a step.

These guys on the radio got me thinking, though. Maybe we have over-analyzed the situation. Perception in Cincinnati is that Griffey just doesn't have the spring in his step to run down balls in the alleys, although outside of Cincinnati people still percieve him as a great centerfielder.

No matter what, taking Griffey out of CF takes away a bat and makes our defense WORSE, because if you put Jr. in left, where does Mr. Dunn go? First? :laugh: For those who want to put Griffey at first, a position he has never played before, I don't understand your logic.

The fact of the matter is, I'm very comfortable with the lineup that we are putting out there day in and day out.

[GAC]

Junior's diving catches are nice, but the simple truth is that those plays are easily made standing up by most CFs.

I can't believe you actually watched those games this past week (if you did), and could make a statement like that.

I can tell you that Freel would have never made those plays. I've watched Ryan Freel in CF, and while he may have speed, his abilty to track a ball and make the play cannot come close to that of Jr's. He does not show good judgment IMO.

Those types of plays aren't an example of "Jim Edmonds", but sure seemed to show me Jr's ability to see/track the ball and also get to it.

You're saying it shows his "lack", and that those would have been routine plays for a majority of CFers.

Just not buying it WilyMo. ;)

Those were not routine flyballs.

[registerthis]

I can tell you that Freel would have never made those plays. I've watched Ryan Freel in CF, and while he may have speed, his abilty to track a ball and make the play cannot come close to that of Jr's. He does not show good judgment IMO.

No question Junior is one of the best at tracking balls and taking good routes. That's not really in question--the issue is Junior's body, specifically his legs. All of the great sense for tracking balls won't help if you don't have the wheels to get to them.

I saw both of the catches Junior made last week--impressive, no doubt. But as others have said, a couple of good catches does not offset the fact that Junior, overall, is slowing down and not getting to balls that most other competent CFers would. It's not a knock on him, just a statement of fact supportable by various statistics and observations. IMO, the less running he has to do, the better--both for himself, and for the team. A move to LF just makes sense at this point, a couple of diving catches in CF notwithstanding.

[Cyclone792]

PMR 2005
Original Method Alternative Method
Player Runs Above Average Runs Above Average
Total Per 4000 BIP Total Per 4000 BIP

Andruw Jones 18.1341 16.8337 22.5922 20.9721
Aaron Rowand 16.4488 15.9388 18.0039 17.4456
Jim Edmonds 14.4121 16.2940 17.0982 19.3309
Jason Ellison 12.8179 27.4619 13.5398 29.0087
Brady Clark 11.7481 12.4814 12.5370 13.3195
G. Matthews Jr. 10.2271 14.4963 10.3165 14.6230
Tike Redman 9.7009 24.0567 10.6247 26.3477
Joey Gathright 9.3279 23.5109 10.4651 26.3771
Luis Matos 7.5325 9.9867 5.9460 7.8833
Nook Logan 6.9303 10.1543 5.0152 7.3483
Jason Michaels 6.7838 16.7398 6.0941 15.0379
C. Granderson 5.4361 20.8278 5.1308 19.6583
Willy Taveras 5.1866 5.6901 3.5988 3.9482
Corey Patterson 4.2928 6.1347 3.8431 5.4921
Jerry Hairston 3.8810 14.1128 2.0351 7.4003
Carlos Beltran 2.7457 2.7685 2.0601 2.0773
Brad Wilkerson 1.3867 2.2978 1.4826 2.4567
Grady Sizemore 0.4807 0.4649 1.2899 1.2475
Randy Winn 0.2979 0.7435 0.6375 1.5908
Damon Hollins -0.3404 -0.6775 -0.3254 -0.6475
Laynce Nix -0.5761 -1.3767 0.2596 0.6203
Luis Terrero -1.0177 -3.1074 -1.7000 -5.1907
Jeremy Reed -1.5560 -1.6858 -1.0173 -1.1021
Milton Bradley -2.3054 -4.6833 -3.6439 -7.4025
Torii Hunter -2.7189 -4.2235 -1.5465 -2.4023
Chone Figgins -2.9706 -10.0359 -2.8761 -9.7165
Kenny Lofton -5.3194 -9.8188 -5.3191 -9.8183
Vernon Wells -5.4530 -5.1455 -5.3017 -5.0028
Dave Roberts -5.5436 -8.1674 -4.7668 -7.0229
Johnny Damon -5.9105 -5.9823 -5.7769 -5.8471
Juan Pierre -5.9177 -5.6751 -7.4272 -7.1227
Cory Sullivan -6.3627 -13.1528 -7.5302 -15.5662
Jason Repko -6.4408 -22.8396 -6.2372 -22.1176
David DeJesus -6.4854 -7.8516 -7.9603 -9.6371
Mark Kotsay -7.0839 -8.0522 -5.3062 -6.0315
Jose Cruz Jr. -7.1881 -21.8316 -7.4231 -22.5453
Lew Ford -8.0681 -19.2442 -7.1966 -17.1655
Steve Finley -10.8630 -16.1471 -10.8709 -16.1590
Preston Wilson -13.4858 -16.0450 -14.2096 -16.9061
B. Williams -15.2439 -22.6759 -17.1893 -25.5699
K. Griffey Jr. -26.9072 -31.2965 -28.9143 -33.6311

http://anaheimangelsblog.blogspot.com/2006/01/pmr-redux-center-fielders-cf-figures.html

Well to summarize, I've now posted PMR numbers, UZR numbers and fielding runs above average. Additionally I've been maintaining a thread in the ORG analyzing the team defensive efficiency ratio and other defensive stats, and including team splits with and without Griffey in center field, and dougdirt has also posted a doubles allowed chart with and without Griffey in center field.

Are all these metrics perfect? Of course not, but they're all objective, and they easily do a decent enough job to give us an idea of defensive performance. The key for all is them is that they agree with each other that Griffey's defensive performance in center field is costing this team a truckload of runs.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure how much more objective we can get in analyzing his defense. :dunno:

[TeamBoone]

If he did so poorly in 2005, how the heck did he earn the Comeback Player of the Year award?

[westofyou]

If he did so poorly in 2005, how the heck did he earn the Comeback Player of the Year award?
B - A -T- T- I - N - G

[Cyclone792]

Chances are whoever votes for Comeback Player of the Year has no idea how to value fielding defense, and probably didn't value defense at all. They just looked at his stellar offensive numbers and handed him the award, which he probably deserved anyway even after accounting for defense. Griffey's bat was just plain out awesome, like it usually is when he's healthy.

Nobody in here is questioning Griffey's ability to hit; we're questioning his ability to patrol center field adequately on the defensive side of the coin.

[jimbo]

PMR 2005
Original Method Alternative Method
Player Runs Above Average Runs Above Average
Total Per 4000 BIP Total Per 4000 BIP

Andruw Jones 18.1341 16.8337 22.5922 20.9721
Aaron Rowand 16.4488 15.9388 18.0039 17.4456
Jim Edmonds 14.4121 16.2940 17.0982 19.3309
Jason Ellison 12.8179 27.4619 13.5398 29.0087
Brady Clark 11.7481 12.4814 12.5370 13.3195
G. Matthews Jr. 10.2271 14.4963 10.3165 14.6230
Tike Redman 9.7009 24.0567 10.6247 26.3477
Joey Gathright 9.3279 23.5109 10.4651 26.3771
Luis Matos 7.5325 9.9867 5.9460 7.8833
Nook Logan 6.9303 10.1543 5.0152 7.3483
Jason Michaels 6.7838 16.7398 6.0941 15.0379
C. Granderson 5.4361 20.8278 5.1308 19.6583
Willy Taveras 5.1866 5.6901 3.5988 3.9482
Corey Patterson 4.2928 6.1347 3.8431 5.4921
Jerry Hairston 3.8810 14.1128 2.0351 7.4003
Carlos Beltran 2.7457 2.7685 2.0601 2.0773
Brad Wilkerson 1.3867 2.2978 1.4826 2.4567
Grady Sizemore 0.4807 0.4649 1.2899 1.2475
Randy Winn 0.2979 0.7435 0.6375 1.5908
Damon Hollins -0.3404 -0.6775 -0.3254 -0.6475
Laynce Nix -0.5761 -1.3767 0.2596 0.6203
Luis Terrero -1.0177 -3.1074 -1.7000 -5.1907
Jeremy Reed -1.5560 -1.6858 -1.0173 -1.1021
Milton Bradley -2.3054 -4.6833 -3.6439 -7.4025
Torii Hunter -2.7189 -4.2235 -1.5465 -2.4023
Chone Figgins -2.9706 -10.0359 -2.8761 -9.7165
Kenny Lofton -5.3194 -9.8188 -5.3191 -9.8183
Vernon Wells -5.4530 -5.1455 -5.3017 -5.0028
Dave Roberts -5.5436 -8.1674 -4.7668 -7.0229
Johnny Damon -5.9105 -5.9823 -5.7769 -5.8471
Juan Pierre -5.9177 -5.6751 -7.4272 -7.1227
Cory Sullivan -6.3627 -13.1528 -7.5302 -15.5662
Jason Repko -6.4408 -22.8396 -6.2372 -22.1176
David DeJesus -6.4854 -7.8516 -7.9603 -9.6371
Mark Kotsay -7.0839 -8.0522 -5.3062 -6.0315
Jose Cruz Jr. -7.1881 -21.8316 -7.4231 -22.5453
Lew Ford -8.0681 -19.2442 -7.1966 -17.1655
Steve Finley -10.8630 -16.1471 -10.8709 -16.1590
Preston Wilson -13.4858 -16.0450 -14.2096 -16.9061
B. Williams -15.2439 -22.6759 -17.1893 -25.5699
K. Griffey Jr. -26.9072 -31.2965 -28.9143 -33.6311

http://anaheimangelsblog.blogspot.com/2006/01/pmr-redux-center-fielders-cf-figures.html

Quite frankly, I'm not sure how much more objective we can get in analyzing his defense. :dunno:

These numbers you are posting are nothing but subjective. Words like "Probabilistic Model of Range" and "Predicted Outs" tell you exactly what the model is based on. I will judge a player's defense by my own eyes and what people in the baseball world say, and most players, coaches, and managers will tell you that Junior is still a good CF. I have not seen one piece of evidence that shows me his defense is a detriment to the team.

[registerthis]

I have not seen one piece of evidence that shows me his defense is a detriment to the team.

Then I would suggest that you are not watching the balls hit into the alleys or over his head that Junior ends up playing off the wall, rather than catching. On multiple occasions I have seen balls hit--that the 1996 KGJ would snag with ease--that sail over his head or behind him for an easy double.

The numbers Cyclone is posting aren't as clear cut as RBIs and batting average, but they tell a story. If enough "subjective stats" are saying that Junior is in the bottom of the league defensively at his position, and you have numerous people watching him firsthand who are saying the same thing--there's some validity there. If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...

[registerthis]

If he did so poorly in 2005, how the heck did he earn the Comeback Player of the Year award?

Offense. Period.

[jimbo]

Then I would suggest that you are not watching the balls hit into the alleys or over his head that Junior ends up playing off the wall, rather than catching. On multiple occasions I have seen balls hit--that the 1996 KGJ would snag with ease--that sail over his head or behind him for an easy double.

The numbers Cyclone is posting aren't as clear cut as RBIs and batting average, but they tell a story. If enough "subjective stats" are saying that Junior is in the bottom of the league defensively at his position, and you have numerous people watching him firsthand who are saying the same thing--there's some validity there. If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...

I watch every game the Reds play. You may be correct, but what you are saying is subjective and your opinion. Again, I am not questioning whether or not he has lost a step or two. I am saying he is still an above average CF and the best one on the team.

I could easily make up my own defensive probability model and put Junior in a good light......that's why they are called "subjective stats."

[Cyclone792]

These numbers you are posting are nothing but subjective. Words like "Probabilistic Model of Range" and "Predicted Outs" tell you exactly what the model is based on. I will judge a player's defense by my own eyes and what people in the baseball world say, and most players, coaches, and managers will tell you that Junior is still a good CF. I have not seen one piece of evidence that shows me his defense is a detriment to the team.

Pinto's PMR is a method for calculating "expected outs" and then comparing the expected outs to the players actual performance of outs recorded. Expected outs is calculated using a variety of factors, including park factors, how hard a ball was hit, where it was hit, and what type of hit it was (flyball, groundball or line drive).

I would suggest you to actually take a look at how the defensive system works before glancing at the name and automatically refusing its validity simply because you do not like the result. The same most definitely holds true for UZR.


I could easily make up my own defensive probability model and put Junior in a good light......that's why they are called "subjective stats."

If you can come up with a defensive system better than any other system out there, then I'd certainly like to see it.

[jimbo]

Pinto's PMR is a method for calculating "expected outs" and then comparing the expected outs to the players actual performance of outs recorded. Expected outs is calculated using a variety of factors, including park factors, how hard a ball was hit, where it was hit, and what type of hit it was (flyball, groundball or line drive).

I would suggest you to actually take a look at how the defensive system works before glancing at the name and automatically refusing its validity simply because you do not like the result. The same most definitely holds true for UZR.

You are right, I should have looked into it more in depth, but the information you are giving me is all I really need to know. "Expected outs" is subjective. How hard a ball was hit cannot be accurately measured, it's subjective. What about a line drive? Was it a soft line drive or a hard hit one? It's interesting stuff, but it's hard for me to put too much stock into it.

I am also not refusing it's validity because I do not like the result. I would be saying the exact same thing if Junior was determined the best CF by this system.

[Cyclone792]

You are right, I should have looked into it more in depth, but the information you are giving me is all I really need to know. "Expected outs" is subjective. How hard a ball was hit cannot be accurately measured, it's subjective. What about a line drive? Was it a soft line drive or a hard hit one? It's interesting stuff, but it's hard for me to put too much stock into it.

I am also not refusing it's validity because I do not like the result. I would be saying the exact same thing if Junior was determined the best CF by this system.

Defensive system models are always expanding, modifying and attempting to be even more precise. So far, the current systems have been tried, tested and found to have at least a decent amount of use since they have a decent amount of accuracy. In five years, there will likely be one or more better systems, but for now, we have to make use with what we've got. Still, they have a vastly important use; if scouts' eyes were a good indicator of a player's defense on their own footing, these systems would not have been developed as there wouldn't have been a need for them.

In fact, in general terms the defensive systems available, such as PMR and UZR, have already reached what we need to know. If we broke a defensive rating into five categories - good, above average, average, below average and poor - each defensive system would pretty much agree with one another where the vast majority of defensive players sit within that general framework. Some of these metrics use completely different methodologies from one another, but they're agreeing in most cases in these general formats. Where they're primarily differing is on specifics, such as how good and how poor. That's what the continued evolution and refinement of these systems will help answer in the coming years.

One thing we do know from them is that Griffey is among the worst defensive center fielders in the game today. If they all use different methodologies for their studies, but all come to an agreement that Griffey is pretty awful defensively, then it is almost impossible to make any sort of realistic claim that Griffey is anything but below average or worse.

[registerthis]

I could easily make up my own defensive probability model and put Junior in a good light......

then by all means, please do. I'd be very interested to see it. if you can devise a defensive model that shows Junior as even an "average" NL centerfielder, I will be happyt o reconsider my opinion. Consider this your Memorial Day homework assignment.

[jimbo]

then by all means, please do. I'd be very interested to see it. if you can devise a defensive model that shows Junior as even an "average" NL centerfielder, I will be happyt o reconsider my opinion. Consider this your Memorial Day homework assignment.


Sorry, I plan on being inebriated most of the weekend.

Maybe I should have worded it differently, I only meant to imply that since it is subjective, anybody with the time and willing to put in the effort, could devise a system that is designed to measure defensive ability. If you base your opinion on what kind of CF Junior is on these systems, I respect that. I base mine on my own eyes and what the rest of major league baseball says, the players, coaches, and managers who actually play with and against him.

[TeamBoone]

A little bit more info here.


05-27-2006

Catches speaking for Griffey
Column by The Post's Lonnie Wheeler

For weeks - starting back when he was still on the disabled list - Ken Griffey Jr. seethed and said nothing. Except to his wife.

Melissa Griffey was well aware that, before too long, somebody else was going to hear what she had been hearing since it was suggested on the radio that the all-century center fielder take up a new position. As he set off for Great American Ball Park a few afternoons ago, Griffey said to her, "One day ..."

She knew what he meant. And she knew something else. "I think it'll be today," Melissa replied, as he walked out the door.

That was Wednesday. It was the day after Griffey had made two spectacular catches - one coming in, the other going back - and then declined to talk about them to the postgame media. In retrospect, it was his opening statement.

Wednesday's venting was hardly the first time the future Hall of Famer has poured out his frustrations to the local press. It was, however, the most unexpected of his occasional outbursts, arriving as it did out of the current context - he has gradually become a media sweetheart - and in the face of recent raves.

Even now, it's hard to pin down what it was all about. When Griffey goes off, the story tends to be Griffey going off; Griffey's pride; Griffey's sensitivity; Griffey's relationship with his hometown.

Was this really about center field? Was it about the Two Angry Guys? Was it about the tempered approval of the people he grew up amongst, of whom he solemnly said Friday, "I don't think they've taken to me."

Sort of, sort of, and sort of.

"People say I'm thin-skinned," he submitted, upon further review, "but this had been brewing for about three weeks. Now (after the stirring catches), what are they gonna do? I got a little bit of leverage, and I was going to use it."

It's strange how that goes. In Detroit, Griffey was unable to catch a couple of fly balls that some people thought he should have and surely would have a few years ago, when he was the most exciting outfielder on the planet. Even Tuesday, before his dazzling double (there was another fabulous play Wednesday and yet another Friday, a home run-robber for which he received a standing ovation), he permitted an apparently easy fly ball to fall in front of him in the first inning.

His point is that he has earned the right to be asked what happened on those plays. It's a good point that, on the flip side, is not always practical for talk-show hosts like Angry Guys Richard Skinner and Tom Gamble, who, by the nature of their positions, would be remiss to withhold opinions that they genuinely felt. For a proud, sensitive ballplayer, the inevitable result is one angry guy.

"Just ask me the question," Griffey said. "Did you see the ball? That's a lot better than saying, 'He doesn't cover a lot of ground' without talking to me. If you look out there and see your left fielder and center fielder in glasses, and they don't normally wear glasses, you have to assume something's wrong. It's just that I couldn't see it. That's the end of the story. Plenty of people don't see balls. People are attacking me over a ball that dropped that I didn't see.

"Go out there at 7:10 and stand and see what it's like in the outfield. If it's hit to left-center, you can't see it, and if it's hit to right-center, because of the angle I have to take, I can't see it. That's until the shadow goes over the top of the stands. The same thing in Detroit. We couldn't see in Detroit."

The issue of Griffey's range, at age 36, after seven trips to the disabled list in the past five years for various leg problems, is what gives rise to the notion that he and the Reds might be better served with the great player in left field, or perhaps at first base. To Griffey, though, that suggestion implies a slowing-down that he's simply not able to endorse.

"I take pride in my defense," the Cincinnatian declared. "People say, 'Oh, he doesn't have the range,' but I'm a smarter player, as far as where I position myself, than I was when I was 20, or when I was 30. The heart of the issue is, 'He has lost a step.' And then I make some plays and all of a sudden it's wait a minute, hold on.

"People say they're as frustrated as I am. They're not at my house for 24 hours. They're upset, but they're not as frustrated as I am. Because they don't know how much this game means to me."

They do know, however, how much he means to the Reds, and that's another reason why the subject of changing places has come up. The assumption is that the celebrated slugger could better protect his legs in a less demanding position. He rejects it.

The thing is, protecting oneself is not among Griffey's principles of baseball. "I can only play one way," he said. "I play hard. If you get hurt playing hard, you just get hurt. I can't be afraid to sacrifice my body."

And so he remains in center field, and continues to argue his case with catches like the ones that made him famous. And we move on.

"But," he is asked, "if it got to the point ..."

"I'm not even going to answer that."
http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060527/SPT05/605270393/1027

[Unassisted]

"People say I'm thin-skinned," he submitted, upon further review, "but this had been brewing for about three weeks. Now (after the stirring catches), what are they gonna do? I got a little bit of leverage, and I was going to use it."Griffey really could use some professional PR assistance, then. The way to defuse criticism is to address it head on, both with his play AND with words of humility. To give innocent members of the media the silent treatment is to parlay that perceived leverage into an ongoing grudge. He need only look to the Bay Area to see how well that gruff and silent approach works.

The next time his defensive play appears to slip, I think some reporters who were kind in their assessments of it will remember the "leverage" stiff-arm and decline to hold back in their opinion of it. Can you say "backfire?" A good PR person would have told him this. Now I'm wondering if the Reds PR staff is too cowed by Griffey to advise him? If so, he really needs to consider hiring his own PR help.