Time for Fans to Put Their Money...

[traderumor]

where their mouth is. It was shameful to hear the roar of the Cubs fans over the small din of the Reds' well-wishers both tonight and Thursday night. I made the standard excuses on Marc's blog after Thursday night, but when I hear the roar on Michael Barrett's Grand Slam tonight, I was ashamed of Reds' Country.

I know all about Cubs' fans and their ignorance to be coming out and supporting a bad team (one who seems to have our number this year, btw), but the Reds fans have no excuse. It was a cloudy, cool night with the threat of rain will be the one I hear tonight. Why keep making excuses?

Just to let you know this is hoeing in my tater patch as well, I have been using the "gas is too high," "don't have time," "kids' ballgames," excuses myself and will probably not make it down until after their season is over in the next couple of weeks. But now, I am obligated to show my support by attending a game soon thereafter as I shoot off my mouth.

But I think Reds' fans need to really stop and ask themselves if they really want a good ballteam, which going to games for a club hanging tough in the top of the division that relies on attendance for budgetary consideration is a great way of showing it. That we have to sit through another night of hearing the visiting team cheered loudly in our own ballpark ought to make every Reds' fans find a way to make sure that stops happening.

The players noticed, they were excited to come home with the thought that their hometown fans might be louder than stinking Cubs fans. Guess what, they have to be wondering if anyone cares as they listened to the loud roar as the ball hit off the facing. What a discouragement that must be.

Oh yea, we sold out last night....because it was fireworks night. Cincinnati a baseball city? That dog won't hunt with me anymore.

[CTA513]

If security did a good job they wouldnt let Cubs fans in the park.

:)

[KronoRed]

A simple rule, no cub fans allowed in who wern't alive when they last won the world series.

[dougdirt]

Its not that the Cubs fans were anywhere near being close to the majority of the fans at the game. It is that they are loud, obnoxious drunks. While the Reds fans may have outnumbered them tonight 25000-10000, 10,000 people can make a lot of noise when the other 25000 are quiet after watching their team blow a game that they probably shouldnt have.

[KittyDuran]

The Cub fans are definitely louder...:p:

[CTA513]

A simple rule, no cub fans allowed in who wern't alive when they last won the world series.

Make them wear shock collars, that way when they get loud and annoying you can shock them.

:p:

[reds44]

I'll be making the 6 hour treck for the Sox game next Saturday (and possibly Sunday). Sorry, but my bro (a Sox fan) is coming with me.

[traderumor]

1/3 of the crowd being Cubs fans is too much. Our fannies need to be in those seats.

[KronoRed]

I'll be making the 6 hour treck for the Sox game next Saturday (and possibly Sunday). Sorry, but my bro (a Sox fan) is coming with me.
Muzzle him:D

But..to be fair, the few White Sox fans I've run into were pretty nice.

[KoryMac5]

I told my wife we will be making our first pilgrimige to see the Reds play in CIN CITY. We look forward to seeing the new park and showing our loyalties to the Reds. It's time to get out to the park.

[traderumor]

I told my wife we will be making our first pilgrimige to see the Reds play in CIN CITY. We look forward to seeing the new park and showing our loyalties to the Reds. It's time to get out to the park.Amen, brother :thumbup:

[reds44]

Muzzle him:D

But..to be fair, the few White Sox fans I've run into were pretty nice.
I thought they used to be, but since they won the WS they have become annoying.

I was at the game today and there were some Indian fans at the game and the Sox fans just kept saying win a ring blah blah blah. Nothing matters because they have a ring.

[Mario-Rijo]

I have been putting it on the front burner for about 2 weeks or so now, just trying to find that right fit. I'll make it soon, just has to be right for me!

[snowstorm]

1/3 of the crowd being Cubs fans is too much. Our fannies need to be in those seats.

I agree, but we need to consider a few things.


The Reds have started out hot in previous years and have faded badly
The team hasn't seen a winning season since 2000
The Reds haven't been to the playoffs since 1995
Previous ownership has done everything possible to run off all but the die-hard fans


The players deserve better support, but given the damage done by the previous ownership, it's going to take time and a good team to win the fans back. Until then, I'm not sure I can reasonably expect people to come to the ballpark.

The bottom line is that if Castellini shows that he's interested in winning, the fans will eventually come back.

[Falls City Beer]

The fans owe this franchise nothing, zip, nada. This organization has defecated on the citizens of Cincinnati and fans of the Cincinnati Reds for 6 years.

[dougdirt]

Well I have been to 14 games this year.... so where is everyone else at?!

[OnBaseMachine]

Tomorrow will be my fourth game of the year, and I still have plans to go to a three game series in August, plus the Concepcion and Larkin bobblehead games. We're also thinking of possibily going to one of the games vs the Indians. That's 10 games this year, not bad for someone who lives four hours from Cincinnati. I'm doing my part!;)

[reds44]

Yeah i try to get down for at least 1 series a year, but I go to a ton of games @ Cubs and @ Brewers.

[edabbs44]

Was out there Memorial Day weekend and hit all 3 games. I have to give the wife credit for sticking it out...her boss compares us to the movie Fever Pitch.

[GAC]

The fans owe this franchise nothing, zip, nada. This organization has defecated on the citizens of Cincinnati and fans of the Cincinnati Reds for 6 years.

True... but that type of attitude is not gonna get us anywhere FCB. Especially since we have seen the sincere efforts of this new management (especially Castellini's).

You want to be upset at former management (owners/GMS) then go for it. But what Castellini and Krivsky has shown me so far - does not justify the same continuing attitude.

They are making an effort (and a solid one). The fans should be making one too.

But Cincy has historically had attendance problems.

And wasn't there a festival/concert going on at Riverbend this weekend?

[KittyDuran]

And wasn't there a festival/concert going on at Riverbend this weekend?Parrot-heads were out on Thursday night, IIRC. I've been to 17 games so far and 6 Dragons games, including today's... I think I've held up mind end so far...:mooner: ;)

[Falls City Beer]

True... but that type of attitude is not gonna get us anywhere FCB. Especially since we have seen the sincere efforts of this new management (especially Castellini's).

You want to be upset at former management (owners/GMS) then go for it. But what Castellini and Krivsky has shown me so far - does not justify the same continuing attitude.

They are making an effort (and a solid one). The fans should be making one too.

But Cincy has historically had attendance problems.

And wasn't there a festival/concert going on at Riverbend this weekend?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions (and cliches). But seriously, do we "owe" it to General Motors to keep buying their bad cars just because they're an American company? Do we "owe" it to Wal-Mart to shop at their stores because they "try" to keep low prices?

When the Reds put a monster club on the field in the absence of fan turnout, then I will know that they genuinely care about winning. Then, they will get my long, green folding stuff. If, until then, we have to endure picking up the likes of guys like Yan to "help" the situation, I think I'll pass on that product. I'm not impressed by that kind of "trying."

[KittyDuran]

But seriously, do we "owe" it to General Motors to keep buying their bad cars just because they're an American company? You'd have an a "nice" discussion with my Mom, who always tries to buy American whenever she can, regardless...;)

[Chip R]

True... but that type of attitude is not gonna get us anywhere FCB. Especially since we have seen the sincere efforts of this new management (especially Castellini's).

You want to be upset at former management (owners/GMS) then go for it. But what Castellini and Krivsky has shown me so far - does not justify the same continuing attitude.

They are making an effort (and a solid one). The fans should be making one too.

But Cincy has historically had attendance problems.

And wasn't there a festival/concert going on at Riverbend this weekend?

There was a Jimmy Buffet concert at Riverbend on Thursday and that is always huge.

I understand the excuses about previous fast starts and not wanting to commit because of that. But if you believe that, I have to ask you, when do you commit? If they keep doing well you can always say they did the same thing in 99 but lost that playoff game. If they make the playoffs are you going to say that they made the playoffs in 1995 too and lost the NLCS?

If you do commit to this team, they may break your heart. So what? It would not be the first time it has happened. And would you not rather a team be in a position to break your heart rather than be in the cellar all year or fighting for 4th place? Enjoy the ride while it lasts because it may not happen again for a long time.

[Matt700wlw]

It's Cubs "fans," not Cubs fans.

:)

[Falls City Beer]

There was a Jimmy Buffet concert at Riverbend on Thursday and that is always huge.

I understand the excuses about previous fast starts and not wanting to commit because of that. But if you believe that, I have to ask you, when to you commit? If they keep doing well you can always say they did the same thing in 99 but lost that playoff game. If they make the playoffs are you going to say that they made the playoffs in 1995 too and lost the NLCS?

If you do commit to this team, they may break your heart. So what? It would not be the first time it has happened. And would you not rather a team be in a position to break your heart rather than be in the cellar all year or fighting for 4th place? Enjoy the ride while it lasts because it may not happen again for a long time.

I'm already always committed to the team. I just don't shell out my cash for an organization whose track record has been this bad, regardless of the new regime. If they make the good faith effort of acquiring a genuine ace at the deadline, my cash is theirs. That's where I'll draw the line.

[TeamBoone]

The players noticed, they were excited to come home with the thought that their hometown fans might be louder than stinking Cubs fans. Guess what, they have to be wondering if anyone cares as they listened to the loud roar as the ball hit off the facing. What a discouragement that must be.

Oh yea, we sold out last night....because it was fireworks night. Cincinnati a baseball city? That dog won't hunt with me anymore.

On TV, they said Reds fans outnumbered Cubs fans... evidently they're just louder (which doesn't suprise me as the majority seems to be very loud mouthed under normal circumstances... I know, I've been there).

And there's no way the game sold out because of the fireworks. Until this year, I've been there for almost every one and none of them was even close to a sell out.

One more thing, even it was for the weather I'm pretty sure the crowd would have been bigger yesterday (Saturday). I don't know what it is about the weather when this club is home but it's EXTREMELY cold... again, and rainy. I actually had to turn the heat on in my house. Originally the report was warm and sunny. I have no idea how it changed so quickly.

Anyway, today is no exception... it's freezing and has been raining.

[Chip R]

I'm already always committed to the team. I just don't shell out my cash for an organization whose track record has been this bad, regardless of the new regime. If they make the good faith effort of acquiring a genuine ace at the deadline, my cash is theirs. That's where I'll draw the line.

But yours is a different kind of commitment since you do not live here. You want to wait to see if they get an ace at the deadline, fine. But you are probably going to be disappointed because we are not the only organization out there in search of that ace. You think the Cards arent going to be looking for anothe pitcher? They have more mobey than we do and better players to offer. I am sure the Yankees are going to be looking for that ace. Anyone in the AL West will be looking as well. I am sure you know that the Phils want more pitching too. And those are just a few examples. And didnt we get our ace already in ST?

Whethere they get an ace or not is irrelevant to the current situation. Fans wanted Lindner to sell the team to an owner who was more commited. Check. They wanted a good GM in there. Check. They wanted improved pitching. Check. They wanted a winning team. Check. They wanted them to play well against StL and HOU. Double check. Staying at home does nothing to increase payroll. I wish I could go to more games but I can usually only get down there on weekends. I do not know if they will win it or not. Sitting down and analyzing why they will not win and then not going to games based on that kind of takes the fun out of it. If we knew how our team would do before the season started, it would not be much fun following the team. I am happy that for the first time in 6 years, this looks like a team that may not go into the tank. I am going to enjoy it while I can. If they swoon by September, and you do not want to go to games, I cannot say I blame you. But my question is, how long do you stay away? Because I think that saying that the team was good in the past but they faded is an excuse and not the real reason. Maybe gas prices are too high. Maybe you have family commitments. maybe you have to work. Maybe ticket prices are too high. Maybe you are in school. Maybe there are other reasons but I think that saying that the team will fade is an illegimate excuse and you are just lying to yourself.

[Falls City Beer]

But yours is a different kind of commitment since you do not live here. You want to wait to see if they get an ace at the deadline, fine. But you are probably going to be disappointed because we are not the only organization out there in search of that ace. You think the Cards arent going to be looking for anothe pitcher? They have more mobey than we do and better players to offer. I am sure the Yankees are going to be looking for that ace. Anyone in the AL West will be looking as well. I am sure you know that the Phils want more pitching too. And those are just a few examples. And didnt we get our ace already in ST?

Whethere they get an ace or not is irrelevant to the current situation. Fans wanted Lindner to sell the team to an owner who was more commited. Check. They wanted a good GM in there. Check. They wanted improved pitching. Check. They wanted a winning team. Check. They wanted them to play well against StL and HOU. Double check. Staying at home does nothing to increase payroll. I wish I could go to more games but I can usually only get down there on weekends. I do not know if they will win it or not. Sitting down and analyzing why they will not win and then not going to games based on that kind of takes the fun out of it. If we knew how our team would do before the season started, it would not be much fun following the team. I am happy that for the first time in 6 years, this looks like a team that may not go into the tank. I am going to enjoy it while I can. If they swoon by September, and you do not want to go to games, I cannot say I blame you. But my question is, how long do you stay away? Because I think that saying that the team was good in the past but they faded is an excuse and not the real reason. Maybe gas prices are too high. Maybe you have family commitments. maybe you have to work. Maybe ticket prices are too high. Maybe you are in school. Maybe there are other reasons but I think that saying that the team will fade is an illegimate excuse and you are just lying to yourself.


This team will fade if they don't acquire more pitching. That's a certainty. Cast knows it; Krivsky knows it; my crazy aunt Helen knows it.

And I couldn't possibly care less that other teams with more money (and supposedly more to offer in terms of trade--which I totally disagree with, btw, vis. the Cards and Yankees--they have almost nothing to trade) are in direct competition with the Reds for ace-level pitchers; that's always going to be the case, from now till the end of time. The industrious and shrewd make it happen no matter what, with no excuses, no whining--just executing. That's going to be what it takes to return this team to greatness and draw the indifferent and the lapsed back into the fold. No excuses. Just execute.

I think the title of the this thread irks me somewhat: why should the FANS put their money where their mouth is when, frankly, so far, Castellini hasn't put HIS money where his mouth is (yet), as the payroll is the same as last year. Seems to me when Cast looks at the squad in late July and sees a winning record, he's the one who needs to be putting his money where his mouth is, not reneging on his promise. His actions should be the good faith actions. Then, and only then, does it become the fans' problem.

[edabbs44]

I think the title of the this thread irks me somewhat: why should the FANS put their money where their mouth is when, frankly, so far, Castellini hasn't put HIS money where his mouth is (yet), as the payroll is the same as last year. Seems to me when Cast looks at the squad in late July and sees a winning record, he's the one who needs to be putting his money where his mouth is, not reneging on his promise. His actions should be the good faith actions. Then, and only then, does it become the fans' problem.

The reason why the fans should put their moneywhere their mouths are is because money is a huge factor and Castellini isn't going to dump millions of his own money into a team so that fans can show up for 25 home games over the last two months. So by going to a game and enjoying the sport of baseball, fans will help acquire pitching. If Castellini dumps a few million into the team at the deadline and they miss the playoffs by a game, will fans show up next year?

[Falls City Beer]

If Castellini dumps a few million into the team at the deadline and they miss the playoffs by a game, will fans show up next year?

Absolutely. That's enough of a commitment to the fans, IMO. It's a good faith "dent" in his wallet.

[edabbs44]

Absolutely. That's enough of a commitment to the fans, IMO. It's a good faith "dent" in his wallet.
I think being in contention would matter more. It's Sunday, they are .5 games out of first and the upper deck today looks like a Marlins or Expos game. If Cast doesn't make any huge money moves and the team makes the playoffs, I hope the same fans stay home in October so it will be easier for me to get a hotel room and tickets.

[traderumor]

The fans owe this franchise nothing, zip, nada. This organization has defecated on the citizens of Cincinnati and fans of the Cincinnati Reds for 6 years.
This isn't about owing anybody anything. Fans talk about wanting a winning team, give us an owner who cares and all that zippity do da. Ok, the early returns are in and they have been given the king they want. Well, part and parcel of having a winning team will be a little sweat equity on the fan's part too, and maybe they'll have to show up for games to put some money in the coffers so that it can reinvested in the team. I would simply like to see some of the talk turned into action, show some support instead of continually making the excuses.

[traderumor]

Absolutely. That's enough of a commitment to the fans, IMO. It's a good faith "dent" in his wallet.Which is it? That is certainly less of a committment than your prior post indicated.

Also, certainly eating some contracts entered into by the former regime is denting the wallet, as well.

[CTA513]

The Reds are playing pretty good with these big crowds. :ughmamoru

[Falls City Beer]

Yeah, I'm going to pay good money to see crap like what's unfolding today. :rolleyes: The truth is, I simply can't, in good conscience, take away money from my family to see the likes of Brandon Claussen, Eric Milton, and Elizardo Ramirez. I love my family too much.

[edabbs44]

This isn't about owing anybody anything. Fans talk about wanting a winning team, give us an owner who cares and all that zippity do da. Ok, the early returns are in and they have been given the king they want. Well, part and parcel of having a winning team will be a little sweat equity on the fan's part too, and maybe they'll have to show up for games to put some money in the coffers so that it can reinvested in the team. I would simply like to see some of the talk turned into action, show some support instead of continually making the excuses.
Agreed. The biggest problem I have with this whole line of thinking is that the team is in a playoff race NOW. The announcers always mention the amount of walk up sales the Reds get...that is pathetic. I guess there has to be a perfect storm of happenings for people to show up same day to go to a game. Perfect weather, nothing on TV, $4 bleacher seats, bobbleheads being given out, etc. I'm starting not to blame the Reds recent lack of success/revenue on typical small market woes and moving the blame towards small market, "woe is me" fan attitudes. People kill in NY for seats to any game. Granted, there are many more people living in the area, but when you are .5 games out of first there is no excuse not to fill up the park on a Sunday afternoon.

Reds players, try and stay in this thing until the last week of the season so that fans can start going to the game.

One other question...what if Castellini doesn't make any moves and the Reds are in the race in September? Do the fans still stay at home even though Castellini hasn't made a gesture to the city? If I'm the players, I'd buy up blocks of tickets and throw them into the Ohio River so that the fair weather fans can stay home.

Now I still think Castellini, Wayne & Co. have to make a move for BP help, but that shouldn't deter fans from going out to the ballpark.

[traderumor]

Yeah, I'm going to pay good money to see crap like what's unfolding today. :rolleyes: The truth is, I simply can't, in good conscience, take away money from my family to see the likes of Brandon Claussen, Eric Milton, and Elizardo Ramirez. I love my family too much.

I wish you were in the minority. I fear you are not. It seems like a catch-22 and a never ending demand from Reds fans. "Hey Bob, can you do backflips while standing on your head. Do that, then I'll spend some money to support your program."

[flyer85]

I was there on Friday, will be there next Friday

[Falls City Beer]

One other question...what if Castellini doesn't make any moves and the Reds are in the race in September? Do the fans still stay at home even though Castellini hasn't made a gesture to the city?
.

1. This WILL not happen. The Reds will fall out of the race without help. So this question is pointless.

2. But if it WERE to happen--that the Reds, without help, were to stay in the race through September--then I'm not sure Dan O'Brien/Jim Bowden don't deserve more credit for the team's success--as this team is 95% their personnel.

[edabbs44]

1. This WILL not happen. The Reds will fall out of the race without help. So this question is pointless.

2. But if it WERE to happen--that the Reds, without help, were to stay in the race through September--then I'm not sure Dan O'Brien/Jim Bowden don't deserve more credit for the team's success--as this team is 95% their personnel.

1) Hypothetical question, I am not predicting it to happen because I agree with you.
2) Without Arroyo and Phillips this team would be 10 games out. At least. So most of the roster can be attributed to past regimes, but not the success.

[Falls City Beer]

1) Hypothetical question, I am not predicting it to happen because I agree with you.
2) Without Arroyo and Phillips this team would be 10 games out. At least. So most of the roster can be attributed to past regimes, but not the success.

So Dunn, Griffey, FeLo, Freel, Kearns, Harang, EE, Coffey don't count?

[Red in Chicago]

while i'm certainly no cub fan, i really get sick of reading about the "drunkin', obnoxious" cub fans...as someone who has been to both wrigley and gab, i can assure you that reds fans get every bit as drunk and can be every bit as obnoxious...last year, i brought my dad (a cub fan) to a couple of games...there were a few other cub fans in our area, and some drunkin', obnoxious reds fans were relentlessly tormenting them...my dad is almost 70 years old...he really doesn't need to hear about how dumb or how drunk most chicagoans are...the fact of the matter is, you can find drunkin', obnoxious fans for all teams...the generalizations are pretty annoying...

a lot of reds fans simple resent the fact that so many cub fans make their way to gab and out cheer them...if you don't like being outnumbered or outcheered, pay a few bucks and go to the park...some cincy fans complain about the cub fans almost as much as the white sox fans do...it's almost like an inferiority complex...

i live 300 + miles away and have been to the park a couple of times this year...i'll be there next week for a couple more, then again in august...as an out of towner, it makes for a very expensive weekend, but in my opinion, i'd rather see the reds in their own ballpark, as opposed to in wrigleyville, where i'm just a short drive away...

[edabbs44]

So Dunn, Griffey, FeLo, Freel, Kearns, Harang, EE, Coffey don't count?
Of course they count. They all counted last year also and where did they end up? Arroyo and BP are the difference makers this year.

[Falls City Beer]

Of course they count. They all counted last year also and where did they end up? Arroyo and BP are the difference makers this year.

I'll grant you Arroyo has been a coup. But Phillips? He's been okay, but let's not go overboard.

[reds44]

So Dunn, Griffey, FeLo, Freel, Kearns, Harang, EE, Coffey don't count?
Most of that is Bowden's is it not? Dan'O didn't have much to do with it.

[reds44]

I'll grant you Arroyo has been a coup. But Phillips? He's been okay, but let's not go overboard.
He is probably going to be an all-star at age 25.

I would say "okay" is a bit of an underestimation.

[vaticanplum]

I kind of see both sides of this argument. I think it's early enough in the new regime that the changes they've made haven't trickled all the way to the fanbase yet. even when they do start to spend more money (and I think they will), I think that will take some time to have an effect on attendance. I don't blame the fans to a degree, because this team has been so bad the last several years that it deserves a little backlash. My opinion on this has changed a little bit since moving to chicago -- I think a team whose fans hold out a little bit when the team is losing is a good thing. Otherwise they have no impetus to win from an organizational/financial standpoint.

But on a personal level, it bothers me. I've only been gone from cincinnati for about 10 years, and it seems to me that the whole tenor of the city seems to have changed. It really was a baseball town then. Now, I know people with Bengals season tickets (even when they suck), Bearcats season tickets (even when they suck), but I know no one with Reds season tickets. It's not the winning. It's not even the price. There's a real apathy towards baseball in the city, and it bothers me a lot. There have been a heck of a lot of times this season that the Reds have proven themselves to be a surprising, almost downright joyful team to watch. If people in the city don't want to take advantage of that, forgive me for being judgmental, but I question their love not just of the Reds but of the sport. And that to me is a more baffling issue than money or winning -- and one which I've noticed not just in Cincinnati but as a nationwide trend. Football is winning out, football culture (ugh) is winning out. Cincinnati seems to be simply one of the cities suffering most from this.

[dougdirt]

Yeah, I'm going to pay good money to see crap like what's unfolding today. :rolleyes: The truth is, I simply can't, in good conscience, take away money from my family to see the likes of Brandon Claussen, Eric Milton, and Elizardo Ramirez. I love my family too much.
Claussen I will give you. However to complain about Milton and especially Ramirez is not a good one. Ramirez has an ERA of 4.02 as a 23 year old. I dont know what else you want from him? He has kept the Reds in every single game he has pitched in and is probably the #3 starter on the team. Heck, you didnt mention Harang, but his ERA is 3.72, just a measly 0.3 lower than Ramirez. Is that really much of a difference that it is now wasting your money to see him pitch instead of Harang?
Today sucked, but if you expect to win every game, its just not going to happen. You will lose some games, and sometimes they will be real ugly. It happens to every team in baseball, not just the Reds.

[edabbs44]

I'll grant you Arroyo has been a coup. But Phillips? He's been okay, but let's not go overboard.
Without Arroyo they might be 7 games out right now. Think about it...Arroyo or Pena and whoever would be the 5th starter. But Phillips has been a monster this year, both in the field and at the dish.

[Falls City Beer]

Without Arroyo they might be 7 games out right now. Think about it...Arroyo or Pena and whoever would be the 5th starter. But Phillips has been a monster this year, both in the field and at the dish.

Again, PHillips has been good, better than average--but it's been 187 ABs. Pena could be great for that length of time too. I'm saying it's awfully early to be declaring Phillips "arrived."

[traderumor]

I will not excuse this weekend's bad play in a series at home anymore than St. Louis had to excuse their team's sweep at home to the Reds last week. This is baseball, and it is just the nature of the game that your fans are as likely to turn out for a honker as they are for a great performance by the hometown nine. Like I said in my opening post, talk of Cincy as a great baseball town is a ship that sailed years ago. If it were truly that, fan support by attendance would not be contingent on a perpetual pennant race. But then, anytime WOY could pop on here and remind us that this is just Cincy fans being Cincy fans.

[reds44]

Claussen I will give you. However to complain about Milton and especially Ramirez is not a good one. Ramirez has an ERA of 4.02 as a 23 year old. I dont know what else you want from him? He has kept the Reds in every single game he has pitched in and is probably the #3 starter on the team. Heck, you didnt mention Harang, but his ERA is 3.72, just a measly 0.3 lower than Ramirez. Is that really much of a difference that it is now wasting your money to see him pitch instead of Harang?
Today sucked, but if you expect to win every game, its just not going to happen. You will lose some games, and sometimes they will be real ugly. It happens to every team in baseball, not just the Reds.
i agree 100%. EZ has pitched MUCH better then his record.

[edabbs44]

Again, PHillips has been good, better than average--but it's been 187 ABs. Pena could be great for that length of time too. I'm saying it's awfully early to be declaring Phillips "arrived."
Again, we are debating whether Phillips and Arroyo have been the difference makers so far this year. The debate is not whether BP has arrived and is on his way to Cooperstown. Phillips and Arroyo, IMO, have been the main differences btw this year's team and last year's team.

[Falls City Beer]

Again, we are debating whether Phillips and Arroyo have been the difference makers so far this year. The debate is not whether BP has arrived and is on his way to Cooperstown. Phillips and Arroyo, IMO, have been the main differences btw this year's team and last year's team.

I think you could make a far more compelling argument that someone like Kearns has been the difference maker over his last year's numbers.

Especially when you consider it's Phillips who's taking away/replacing ABs from an already effective duo of Aurilia and Freel.

I'd say Kearns and Arroyo have made the biggest jump over last year's performers.

We just focus in on the "new" and believe they have been the difference makers. Well one is new, one isn't.

[edabbs44]

I think you could make a far more compelling argument that someone like Kearns has been the difference maker over his last year's numbers.

Especially when you consider it's Phillips who's taking away/replacing ABs from an already effective duo of Aurilia and Freel.

I'd say Kearns and Arroyo have made the biggest jump over last year's performers.

We just focus in on the "new" and believe they have been the difference makers. Well one is new, one isn't.
Aurilia can't hit righties this year. Take him out of the equation since Phillips blows RA out of the water. I'll put Kearns up there with Arroyo and Phillips, but don't dismiss what Phillips has brought to this team. He is the only above average defender in the IF and has been swinging the bat as consistenly well as anyone on the team.

[Falls City Beer]

but don't dismiss what Phillips has brought to this team.

I won't--as long you don't overinflate Phillips importance to the success of the club.

[edabbs44]

I won't--as long you don't overinflate Phillips importance to the success of the club.

Not overinflating, just stating that he has been important to the success of this team. RA has an OPS of .566 vs righties this year. Freel has a .709 OPS vs RHPs and is on pace for more ABs this year than last year. Phillips has a .798 OPS vs righties in 2006. Phillips is having a great year.

[traderumor]

See, you two could be at a game having this discussion in between innings ;)

[edabbs44]

See, you two could be at a game having this discussion in between innings ;)
I wish...I get one trip per year out there and blew that one on the Memorial day weekend series. I'll be at Shea next week though. :beerme:

[TeamBoone]

I'll grant you Arroyo has been a coup. But Phillips? He's been okay, but let's not go overboard.

You're too picky Falls. You want perfection and you will never ever get it.

[westofyou]

Especially when you consider it's Phillips who's taking away/replacing ABs from an already effective duo of Aurilia and Freel. And blowing the doors off them so much defensely that it's not even funny... but please go on and stump for RA to have some playing time at 2nd... that should crash like Wiley Post's plane in Alaska.

[Falls City Beer]

You're too picky Falls. You want perfection and you will never ever get it.

No I'm not. I just don't think Phillips is a "difference maker." A nice addition, good defense, but it's 187 ABs--let's rein in the enthusiasm a tad. Pena was all-world for that long at different points in his career, but you couldn't shake off his critics on here with a stick after he was traded.

Kearns is sitting at .100 OPS above last year's performance; you want to see a big improvement over last year, look no further than him. (Though I still think Kearns should be traded).

[TOBTTReds]

No I'm not. I just don't think Phillips is a "difference maker." A nice addition, good defense, but it's 187 ABs--let's rein in the enthusiasm a tad.

Finally, FCB starting to turn a little. Glad to see you coming around. But I still vote him as a difference maker. He won us some ballgames in April, and he is still hitting in June. When was the last 2nd basemen we had that could field and hit?

[edabbs44]

No I'm not. I just don't think Phillips is a "difference maker." A nice addition, good defense, but it's 187 ABs--let's rein in the enthusiasm a tad. Pena was all-world for that long at different points in his career, but you couldn't shake off his critics on here with a stick after he was traded.

Kearns is sitting at .100 OPS above last year's performance; you want to see a big improvement over last year, look no further than him. (Though I still think Kearns should be traded).
I think you are missing the point. Phillips HAS BEEN a difference maker so far this season. No one is getting his HOF speech ready and he might turn around tomorrow and begin a 1-27 slump. But, to this point, he has made a difference on this ballclub.

[Falls City Beer]

I think you are missing the point. Phillips HAS BEEN a difference maker so far this season. No one is getting his HOF speech ready and he might turn around tomorrow and begin a 1-27 slump. But, to this point, he has made a difference on this ballclub.

You're not defining "difference maker"--and if your definition includes what occurs over the course of 190 ABs, then let's just say we have VERY different notions of what a "difference maker" is. Let's just leave it at that.

[edabbs44]

You're not defining "difference maker"--and if your definition includes what occurs over the course of 190 ABs, then let's just say we have VERY different notions of what a "difference maker" is. Let's just leave it at that.
Difference maker: A 2nd baseman who going into today is, in the NL, tied for 4th in HRs, 2nd in RBI, 2nd in SB and 4th in BA for full time 2nd baseman. He also has roughly 50 ABs less than the others ahead of him (Utley, Uggla, etc) in certain categories. Not to mention his well above average defensive play in the field. So, TO DATE, he has been inarguably one of the best NL 2nd baseman. That would be a difference maker.

Also going into today, Phillips had less 39 less ABs than Kearns. He has scored 9 less runs, 6 less HRs, 1 less RBI, 10 more SBs and is hitting 26 points higher. And add an HR, RBI and run scored to those totals today.

What does this all mean? Phillips has had a comparable offensive year SO FAR to Kearns at position where offense is at a premium. And both have been huge plusses in the field.

I like Kearns and I would like to have him around for a while. But Phillips has definitely made a difference to this team so far.

[Jr's Boy]

It turned my stomach to see those four goons with Cubs spelled on their chest at GABP.

[Falls City Beer]

Difference maker: A 2nd baseman who going into today is, in the NL, tied for 4th in HRs, 2nd in RBI, 2nd in SB and 4th in BA for full time 2nd baseman. He also has roughly 50 ABs less than the others ahead of him (Utley, Uggla, etc) in certain categories. Not to mention his well above average defensive play in the field. So, TO DATE, he has been inarguably one of the best NL 2nd baseman. That would be a difference maker.

Also going into today, Phillips had less 39 less ABs than Kearns. He has scored 9 less runs, 6 less HRs, 1 less RBI, 10 more SBs and is hitting 26 points higher. And add an HR, RBI and run scored to those totals today.

What does this all mean? Phillips has had a comparable offensive year SO FAR to Kearns at position where offense is at a premium. And both have been huge plusses in the field.

I like Kearns and I would like to have him around for a while. But Phillips has definitely made a difference to this team so far.


What I don't understand is why isolate the "difference makers" to solely Krivsky's acquisitions. EE has been even more of a difference maker at his position than Phillips, better OBP, better SLG, every bit of Phillips' range. It just seems like your argument tilts unnecessarily in favor of Krivsky acquisitions as the best performers on the club. Which isn't true.

[EddieMilner]

What I don't understand is why isolate the "difference makers" to solely Krivsky's acquisitions. EE has been even more of a difference maker at his position than Phillips, better OBP, better SLG, every bit of Phillips' range. It just seems like your argument tilts unnecessarily in favor of Krivsky acquisitions as the best performers on the club. Which isn't true.


EE is a defensive liability. BP is not.

[EddieMilner]

You're not defining "difference maker"--and if your definition includes what occurs over the course of 190 ABs, then let's just say we have VERY different notions of what a "difference maker" is. Let's just leave it at that.

When is it acceptable then to start discussing who is the difference Maker? We are on a message board discussing the Reds, who have been absolutely abysmal at best over the past 6 seasons. They have put together a good enough season to be in contention in mid June.

What has changed since last year? Hatteberg, BP, Arroyo, and Management. And also Kearns isn't a fat ass like last year. So you don't want to give Management or BP the credit. So you are saying the reason this team is heads above last years at this time is because of Hatteberg (who I like), a pitcher that gets in one out of 5 games, and Kearns taking slim fast over the off-season? But definitely can't be contributed to one of the best 2nd basemen in the NL over the first 2.5 months of the season and the management. Interesting.

[gonelong]

But I think Reds' fans need to really stop and ask themselves if they really want a good ballteam, which going to games for a club hanging tough in the top of the division that relies on attendance for budgetary consideration is a great way of showing it.


I don't go to mediocre movies in the hope that my attendance will give them incentive to make better movies. Your attendance of mediocre movies only allows them to continue creating the same cookie cutter nonsense and profit from doing so. Sports franchises seem to be run the same way IMO (See Bengals, Cincinnati)

I'll go when I have considered it to be worth my drive, time, and expense to do so. At this point they are getting closer to making that happen ... however ... they now have to compete with the Dragons, zoo, lake, golf, camping, etc. that fill my summer.

I'll go more when I consider the games to mean more. Opening day, key series, pennant races. Mid June games only fit that criteria (to me) when I think the team has a good chance to make the playoffs. While I am enjoying the season immensely, I still don't see this team securing a playoff spot when the music stops. It doesn't mean I won't go to a game if a buddy asks me, but I won't be going out of my way to makes plans to attend either.

GL

[Falls City Beer]

When is it acceptable then to start discussing who is the difference Maker? We are on a message board discussing the Reds, who have been absolutely abysmal at best over the past 6 seasons. They have put together a good enough season to be in contention in mid June.

What has changed since last year? Hatteberg, BP, Arroyo, and Management. And also Kearns isn't a fat ass like last year. So you don't want to give Management or BP the credit. So you are saying the reason this team is heads above last years at this time is because of Hatteberg (who I like), a pitcher that gets in one out of 5 games, and Kearns taking slim fast over the off-season? But definitely can't be contributed to one of the best 2nd basemen in the NL over the first 2.5 months of the season and the management. Interesting.

Why is my point so bloody hard to understand? Why?

edabbs said that BP and Arroyo were the only "difference makers" on the team (his term, not mine). I disagreed. EE has made a quantum leap this season; Kearns similarly. That's my only point. I'm not taking anything away from Phillips: he's doing a very good job--but he's hardly alone in this "difference maker" category: I just think it's disingenuous to point ONLY to the Krivsky acquisitions, framing the argument as such that only the Krivsky acquisitions are making a difference in the Reds being 9 games over .500. It's just wrong.

And your remark about EE's defense is, well, the product of an untrained eye.

[dabvu2498]

And your remark about EE's defense is, well, the product of an untrained eye.
I think his eye was hurt when he was sitting in the 1st base stands and caught one of EE's throws with his orbital bone.

[Falls City Beer]

I think his eye was hurt when he was sitting in the 1st base stands and caught one of EE's throws with his orbital bone.

I'm sure his head still smarts from one of future Hall of Famer Barry Larkin's throws in his rookie season.

[dabvu2498]

I'm sure his head still smarts from one of future Hall of Famer Barry Larkin's throws in his rookie season.
We went from comparing EE's defense to Phillips' to comparing it to Barry Larkin... quite a jump.

[Falls City Beer]

We went from comparing EE's defense to Phillips' to comparing it to Barry Larkin... quite a jump.

No, comparing the inanity and the absolute bankruptness of describing EE's defense as a "liability" to this ballclub to similar arguments made by people about Larkin's defense, way back when.

[scuba17]

It turned my stomach to see those four goons with Cubs spelled on their chest at GABP.

Why?

Other teams fans can't come to games?

I'm sure Reds management wishes they could play the Cubs more often considering the crowds they bring in.

[dabvu2498]

No, comparing the inanity and the absolute bankruptness of describing EE's defense as a "liability" to this ballclub to similar arguments made by people about Larkin's defense, way back when.
You may have a point there. But saying that EE doesn't represent a significant liability with his defense is questionable. Not saying he won't transform himself into a high-quality defensive 3B... but I don't see it right now. And my eyes are fine.

[EddieMilner]

And your remark about EE's defense is, well, the product of an untrained eye.

Please, oh master, explain how a trained eye can not see how scary the Reds left side of the infield is? Offensively they are impressive. But my (untrained) eye sees the errors and not turning double plays and piss poor throws as a liability. I guess a trained eye can see that as a benefit.

[Roy Tucker]

It turned my stomach to see those four goons with Cubs spelled on their chest at GABP.
No, they were lost dyslexic Pirates fans. It was supposed to say BUCS.

[MWM]

I've been to a couple of Yankees - Red Sox games in Yankee Stadium and probably 20% or more of the fans are boston fans and when the Sox hit HR or doing something significant you'd think you were in Fenway. It gets very loud. It's the same at Fenway with Yankees fans. This has nothing to do with Reds fans and everything to do with Cubs fans.

[KittyDuran]

No, they were lost dyslexic Pirates fans. It was supposed to say BUCS.
]http://lastperson.suncircle.org/Smileys/default/Drums.gif

[MWM]

Robin Yount had 44 errors his first full season in the majors.

Garry Templeton had 40 errors as a 22 year old.

Aramis Ramirex has 33 errors in 2003 and only 10 the following year.

Hell, even Ozzie Smith had 23 errors his first season.

If EE continues to make errors at his current rate (not likely), then you think about switching him. It's insane to assume that what you see now is the player he's going to be when he's fully developed. You don't give up on a guy with GG potential like EdE at 3B because he's had some throwing problems in his first year.

[Cyclone792]

If EE continues to make errors at his current rate (not likely), then you think about switching him. It's insane to assume that what you see now is the player he's going to be when he's fully developed. You don't give up on a guy with GG potential like EdE at 3B because he's had some throwing problems in his first year.

My thinking exactly.

EE is a tremendously gifted defensive player, and already has the natural range and instincts to play an outstanding third base. Great range such as EE's is extremely difficult to learn and acquire once in the majors. Error reduction, better throws and better judgement - what EE needs to learn - is a much easier task at hand.

This guy has some serious potential to be an all-world third baseman in two to three years. I'd much rather have an EE out there than a statue with a nice fielding percentage.

FWIW, since this is a thread about attendance, mark it down that I've been to 19 games this season.

[griffeyfreak4]

The players deserve better support, but given the damage done by the previous ownership, it's going to take time and a good team to win the fans back. Until then, I'm not sure I can reasonably expect people to come to the ballpark.

The bottom line is that if Castellini shows that he's interested in winning, the fans will eventually come back.Exactly. Last year the Sox couldn't fill up US Cellular Field for their lives. Near the end of the season, the seats started filling up, and now, you can barely get a ticket.

[MWM]

I've been to three games and I live almost 4 hours away.

[vaticanplum]

FWIW, since this is a thread about attendance, mark it down that I've been to 19 games this season.

Do you have season tickets or do you just get those $5 tickets all the time? cincinnati may be the one place in which the latter option is more of a deal (I still haven't gotten over this $5 ticket thing).

[Cyclone792]

Do you have season tickets or do you just get those $5 tickets all the time? cincinnati may be the one place in which the latter option is more of a deal (I still haven't gotten over this $5 ticket thing).

I get $5 tickets for about 60 percent of the games I go to.

The other games are a combination of free company tickets, taking advantage of promos (half price college nights and $4 bleacher games) and the occasional game where I'll buy the cheapest tickets in advance because of a bobblehead game, and those are usually the $9 bleacher tickets. Every once in a great while I'll plan on $5 tickets, but have to buy slightly more expensive tickets because of a large walkup crowd. That happened last Friday night against the Cubs when the cheapest tickets available shortly before gametime were $12 seats.

Of the 19 games I've been to this season, the most money I've shelled out for a ticket is $15, which was actually a half price $30 seat on a college night. That's not too bad, I don't think.

Financially, the most difficult thing to do at a game is constantly talking myself out of buying any beer or concessions since that's where cost becomes a real issue. I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say that I've spent about $200 on Reds baseball this season total for all 19 games (parking, tickets, concessions, etc.).

[vaticanplum]

I get $5 tickets for about 60 percent of the games I go to.

The other games are a combination of free company tickets, taking advantage of promos (half price college nights and $4 bleacher games) and the occasional game where I'll buy the cheapest tickets in advance because of a bobblehead game, and those are usually the $9 bleacher tickets. Every once in a great while I'll plan on $5 tickets, but have to buy slightly more expensive tickets because of a large walkup crowd. That happened last Friday night against the Cubs when the cheapest tickets available shortly before gametime were $12 seats.

Of the 19 games I've been to this season, the most money I've shelled out for a ticket is $15, which was actually a half price $30 seat on a college night. That's not too bad, I don't think.

Financially, the most difficult thing to do at a game is constantly talking myself out of buying any beer or concessions since that's where cost becomes a real issue. I don't know for sure, but if I had to guess, I'd say that I've spent about $200 on Reds baseball this season total for all 19 games (parking, tickets, concessions, etc.).

If I ever move to Cincinnati, this will be a huge part of why. That's truly unbelievable. When I went to GABP a few weeks ago, we all walked up and bought $9 bleacher tickets, great seats, Saturday night game. Cyclone, I've been to about half the games you have this year, and I guarantee I've spent significantly more than that. No parking either.

I'm actually pretty ignorant as to the financial dealings of the Reds. How do they manage to do this when so many other teams cost so much more to watch? Is it a point of the Reds to keep ticket prices low, as it was with Marge Schott, and that is a reason they are a mid-market team? Or is it the other way around: they're a mid-market team, and til this year have been kind of a crappy one, so they *can't* raise prices or no one will go to see them? Or are the ticket prices just more in line with the cost of living in the city?

cincinnati is a conservative city and this must spread in part to how people deal with their money. I guess it's very feasible that if the Reds raise prices, it would make an actual difference in attendance...but that seems ridiculous to me given what people pay to go to Kings Island for a day. I'm very curious as to how these ticket prices are set, and what kind of effect all of you think this has on the team's performance and vice versa.

[huber14]

i have been to 3, well it will be 4 this friday and i am only 18 and i will be a college student this fall, i think that is alot since i am a broke teenager and live 2 1/2 hours away.

[Chip R]

I'm actually pretty ignorant as to the financial dealings of the Reds. How do they manage to do this when so many other teams cost so much more to watch? Is it a point of the Reds to keep ticket prices low, as it was with Marge Schott, and that is a reason they are a mid-market team? Or is it the other way around: they're a mid-market team, and til this year have been kind of a crappy one, so they *can't* raise prices or no one will go to see them? Or are the ticket prices just more in line with the cost of living in the city?

cincinnati is a conservative city and this must spread in part to how people deal with their money. I guess it's very feasible that if the Reds raise prices, it would make an actual difference in attendance...but that seems ridiculous to me given what people pay to go to Kings Island for a day. I'm very curious as to how these ticket prices are set, and what kind of effect all of you think this has on the team's performance and vice versa.

Good questions. The really simple - and somewhat cynical - answer is that since they have a low to mid level payroll, they have a low to mid-level price for tickets. Cost of living may have something to do with it as does supply and demand. I'm not sure if attendance would suffer so much if they raised ticket prices. Sure, there would be some grumbling but I would think the same people - me being one of them - would pay $10 for what is now a $5 ticket.

[traderumor]

No, they were lost dyslexic Pirates fans. It was supposed to say BUCS."They told us it was a ballpark by a river with a yellow bridge nearby."

The real question is, why does the fat guy always have to wear the "C"

[Cyclone792]

I'm actually pretty ignorant as to the financial dealings of the Reds. How do they manage to do this when so many other teams cost so much more to watch? Is it a point of the Reds to keep ticket prices low, as it was with Marge Schott, and that is a reason they are a mid-market team? Or is it the other way around: they're a mid-market team, and til this year have been kind of a crappy one, so they *can't* raise prices or no one will go to see them? Or are the ticket prices just more in line with the cost of living in the city?

cincinnati is a conservative city and this must spread in part to how people deal with their money. I guess it's very feasible that if the Reds raise prices, it would make an actual difference in attendance...but that seems ridiculous to me given what people pay to go to Kings Island for a day. I'm very curious as to how these ticket prices are set, and what kind of effect all of you think this has on the team's performance and vice versa.

Back in the late 90s while I was in high school, I took a look at what determines the cost of ticket prices, and before diving into the research I figured it was salaries. What I found back then, however, was that ticket prices were almost always the result of demand and really didn't have much bearing on salaries at all. Now whether or not that's true (either then or now), I'm not too sure, but what I am certain about is demand plays at least some role in ticket prices.

I'm actually an odd fan when it comes to attending games. I'm actually more likely to attend games when the stadium isn't expected to be as full since I prefer to buy as cheap a ticket as possible and still sit in a decent seat. Just get me into the stadium for as cheap as possible, and I'm happy, and the fewer people down there for that game, the better the seat I'll be able to find and not be bothered to move out of. That doesn't mean I won't attend any games when the yard is full, but if I have to spend $12 to get in the stadium instead of $5 and actually sit way up in the upper deck, over time I'll go to fewer games.

[KittyDuran]

I'm actually an odd fan when it comes to attending games. I'm actually more likely to attend games when the stadium isn't expected to be as full since I prefer to buy as cheap a ticket as possible and still sit in a decent seat. Just get me into the stadium for as cheap as possible, and I'm happy, and the fewer people down there for that game, the better the seat I'll be able to find and not be bothered to move out of. That doesn't mean I won't attend any games when the yard is full, but if I have to spend $12 to get in the stadium instead of $5 and actually sit way up in the upper deck, over time I'll go to fewer games.Well, I'm sort of that fan too... but just the opposite. I like sitting in the $5 and the farther away from people the better. I don't get out of my seat often during the game - so I'm not very happy when people are always getting up and down for whatever, making me get up and blocking the view...:p:

[KittyDuran]

Cy... I borrowed part of your signature...:thumbup:

[Heath]

Cy... I borrowed part of your signature...:thumbup:

Should we all do that???

I like my "winning percentage".

:D

[KittyDuran]

Should we all do that???

I like my "winning percentage".

:DSmall sample... talk to Raisor... ;)

[Heath]

Small sample... talk to Raisor... ;)

Hey...that's personal...... :D ;)

[edabbs44]

I've been to three games and I live almost 4 hours away.
I've been to 3 games and live in NJ. :D

[MWM]

I've been to 3 games and live in NJ. :D

Well, if the game I went to in Detroit, I've been to 4. :devil:

[edabbs44]

Well, if the game I went to in Detroit, I've been to 4. :devil:
I've been to 3 in Cincy...#4 will be Tuesday night at Shea.:beerme:

[GAC]

There was a Jimmy Buffet concert at Riverbend on Thursday and that is always huge.

I understand the excuses about previous fast starts and not wanting to commit because of that. But if you believe that, I have to ask you, when do you commit? If they keep doing well you can always say they did the same thing in 99 but lost that playoff game. If they make the playoffs are you going to say that they made the playoffs in 1995 too and lost the NLCS?

If you do commit to this team, they may break your heart. So what? It would not be the first time it has happened. And would you not rather a team be in a position to break your heart rather than be in the cellar all year or fighting for 4th place? Enjoy the ride while it lasts because it may not happen again for a long time.

If I lived in Cincy I'd be a season ticket holder for sure. And I'd be at every game for sure (and probably be divorced :lol: ).

And it would not be so much my love for the Reds (which is a factor), then my love and passion for the game of baseball.

When I hear people say they are not going to support a sports franchise until they put a winner on the field - I respect their right to do so - but they obviously don't have a true passion for the game itself. In 40+ years, and with the exception of the BRM years, I've had my heart broke by far more Red's teams then encouraged.

But I've also seen some darn fine games and excellent players take the field in that time. And I have no regrets.

Depriving yourself of going to a ballgame due to a mindset that the team has no chance or isn't winning at the level you expect, is following the sport for all the wrong reasons IMO.

You're gonna be disappointed more then satisfied if it's based on winning alone.

I agree that people want to see, and be associated with a winner; but to stay away for soley those reasons means they still deprive themselves of seeing some great ball games and players.

[Heath]

If I lived in Cincy I'd be a season ticket holder for sure. And I'd be at every game for sure (and probably be divorced :lol: ).

And it would not be so much my love for the Reds (which is a factor), then my love and passion for the game of baseball.

When I hear people say they are not going to support a sports franchise until they put a winner on the field - I respect their right to do so - but they obviously don't have a true passion for the game itself. In 40+ years, and with the exception of the BRM years, I've had my heart broke by far more Red's teams then encouraged.

But I've also seen some darn fine games and excellent players take the field in that time. And I have no regrets.

Depriving yourself of going to a ballgame due to a mindset that the team has no chance or isn't winning at the level you expect, is following the sport for all the wrong reasons IMO.

You're gonna be disappointed more then satisfied if it's based on winning alone.

I agree that people want to see, and be associated with a winner; but to stay away for soley those reasons means they still deprive themselves of seeing some great ball games and players.

That above is a bunch of bullcrap, GAC. You just use baseball & football as an excuse to drink beer.

:D ;)

[gonelong]

When I hear people say they are not going to support a sports franchise until they put a winner on the field - I respect their right to do so - but they obviously don't have a true passion for the game itself.

Attendance is not passion, and the Reds are not the only baseball game around.

This seaons I have spent hours with my almost 3 year old, hitting off a tee, pitching to him, and playing catch with him, pretty much whenever he asks. I have played wiffle-ball, stickball, softball, and played toss with the neighbor a few times.

So far this season I have attended kids games, high school games, college games, minor league games, and MLB games, just none of them Reds games. Of course I can pretty much give you a rundown of anyone in the entire franchise from the recently drafted to the Reds roster, but I guess I lack a passion for the game.

I have spent hours here following the Reds specifically, and spent hours other places following the game in general.

Meh.

GL

[EddieMilner]

The fans owe this franchise nothing, zip, nada. This organization has defecated on the citizens of Cincinnati and fans of the Cincinnati Reds for 6 years.

if you feel that way, then would you be okay with the organization leaving Cincinnati?

[westofyou]

Depriving yourself of going to a ballgame due to a mindset that the team has no chance or isn't winning at the level you expect, is following the sport for all the wrong reasons IMO.And lining the pockets of a machine that produces nothing but frustration and disappointment is spending your hard earned pay for all the wrong reasons.

[GAC]

Attendance is not passion, and the Reds are not the only baseball game around.

No. But passion fuels attendance.


This seaons I have spent hours with my almost 3 year old, hitting off a tee, pitching to him, and playing catch with him, pretty much whenever he asks. I have played wiffle-ball, stickball, softball, and played toss with the neighbor a few times.

So far this season I have attended kids games, high school games, college games, minor league games, and MLB games, just none of them Reds games. Of course I can pretty much give you a rundown of anyone in the entire franchise from the recently drafted to the Reds roster, but I guess I lack a passion for the game.

I never said you did lack it. Obviously, from what you post above (working with kids), you do have passion, so I wasn't referring to you. ;)

My passion (and the fact that my body has given out on me) now directs me also to work with kids in various leagues and age levels. That is what passion does. One can really almost call it an addiction.

In my experiences/observations with Cincy Red fans (and since being one since the early 60's) they're fickled IMO. Cincy definitely has tradition, and has always been called a "baseball town", yet they have always had issues with attendance problems also, and send mixed signals even when the team was winning. How come?

IMO - you have the baseball addict ("for the love of the game"), and then the casual fan who enjoys going to a Red's game just as much as they do various other activities available in Cincy. And when the team is losing, you lose that casual fan.

[GAC]

And lining the pockets of a machine that produces nothing but frustration and disappointment is spending your hard earned pay for all the wrong reasons.

If that is how you see it, then that is your opinion.

Being AT a baseball game is, IMO, not spending my hard earned money for all the wrong reasons.

If people want to boycott, then boycott. It's not gonna resolve anything except possibly leading to a city losing that team (not leading to improving it).

All I've said is that since the management change, with Castellini and Krivsky taking over, the fans need to give them a chance and support them seeing the efforts/improvements they have made in just this short of a time.

If it was same-o same-o, then I'd agree. But we're not seeing that with this new owner.

They don't deserve, nor have they earned, the "residual" hatred and mistrust that was directed at previous ownership.

That is not fair.

And their further investment is intrinsically attached to revenue from attendance.

So yeah! Lets quit going to ball games when we are seeing this effort, and it has been reflected on the field this year so far. That will really fix this management. :rolleyes:

Castellini is a baseball guy who direly wants a winner in Cincy. And one cannot expect an overnight change in '06 since they have taken over. Yet I have been impressed with what he (and Krivsky) have done so far.

They have raised fan's hope and optimism as compared to the last 6 years. And I don't think it is a shallow "pull the wool over the eyes of the fan" effort by this management.

[gonelong]

No. But passion fuels attendance.

Winning over time fuels attendance.


I never said you did lack it. Obviously, from what you post above (working with kids), you do have passion, so I wasn't referring to you. ;)

But you did.
When I hear people say they are not going to support a sports franchise until they put a winner on the field - I respect their right to do so - but they obviously don't have a true passion for the game itself.



In my experiences/observations with Cincy Red fans (and since being one since the early 60's) they're fickled IMO. Cincy definitely has tradition, and has always been called a "baseball town", yet they have always had issues with attendance problems also, and send mixed signals even when the team was winning. How come?

All fans are fickle. If you win season over season, you attendance increases, if you lose season over season your attendance decreases. This is true of almost all places except where demand vastly outweighs supply. (Cubs, Packers, Washington Redskins come to mind)


GL

[gonelong]

If people want to boycott, then boycott. It's not gonna resolve anything except possibly leading to a city losing that team (not leading to improving it).

Bengals fans would certainly disagree with this statement.


All I've said is that since the management change, with Castellini and Krivsky taking over, the fans need to give them a chance and support them seeing the efforts/improvements they have made in just this short of a time.

I can appreciate that they are putting forth an effort. At this point I see the team (IMO) overachieving, which is great. However, I also see 3-4 players having years that I suspect they won't be able to match for the rest of the season. I also see that the team has been relatively healthy. For lack of a better term at hand, this front office has been "lucky" to some degree.



They don't deserve, nor have they earned, the "residual" hatred and mistrust that was directed at previous ownership.

That is not fair.

They might not have earned it, but it was part and parcel of the purchase and I can assure you they know that. Fair or not, it is what it is.


And their further investment is intrinsically attached to revenue from attendance.

Likely, but I am not convinced this franchise has turned any kind of corner at this point. I like the direction they are headed, but the certainly haven't reached the destination yet.



So yeah! Lets quit going to ball games when we are seeing this effort, and it has been reflected on the field this year so far. That will really fix this management. :rolleyes:

Efforts are nice, results are better. BobCast knows he has to earn the fans back and I believe he is trying to do that. I am not punishing the organization for anything ... I just haven't come around to seeing that they have deserved a reward yet either.


Castellini is a baseball guy who direly wants a winner in Cincy. And one cannot expect an overnight change in '06 since they have taken over. Yet I have been impressed with what he (and Krivsky) have done so far.

One cannot expect an overnight change in attendance either. So far so good with Cast & Krivisky.


They have raised fan's hope and optimism as compared to the last 6 years. And I don't think it is a shallow "pull the wool over the eyes of the fan" effort by this management.

Again, so far so good. If they can prove they can keep heading in that direction, the fans will come in droves. If this team falls below .500 by year end, they'll have an uphill climb again next season. Effort might pull in a few fans in the short-term, but only year over year winning/improvement will get butts in the seats for the long-term.

GL

[GAC]

But you did.

No, I didn't.

I said this...


When I hear people say they are not going to support a sports franchise until they put a winner on the field - I respect their right to do so - but they obviously don't have a true passion for the game itself.

[gonelong]

No, I didn't.

I said this...

I guess we are picking nits then.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1020556&postcount=72

I assumed your post was in part a response to mine.

No worries.

GL