An informal poll [Archive] - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

RedsBaron

08-17-2002, 07:37 AM

I'll never totally walk away; I've been a fan too long. But my interest in the game definitely is less than it was 25 years ago, for a lot of reasons: [1] The Reds were the Big Red Machine 25 years ago, and, more importantly for me, were made up of players I grew up with and idolized-now I'm older than any player in the majors and I don't idolize players young enough to be my own sons. [2] My interests are different, again partially a result of being older with more responsibilities. [3] Yes, the repeated strikes, drug abuse, player arrogance, owner arrogance, etc. have affected my love of MLB.
I will never totally abandon the game, but my sons, ages 5, 9 and 11 [I started late], have never embraced the game the way I did at their ages, and it seems to me that major league baseball is generally much less important to most kids now than it was to kids 30-35 years ago. It will be easier for a younger generation to leave a game they never fully embraced to begin with.

creek14

08-17-2002, 08:37 AM

I'll listen on radio and watch on TV. But I won't pay to watch a game for a long time. After the last strike I didn't pay for a game for four years.

GAC

08-17-2002, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by ramp101
I think the players should allow the tax on $102million payroll and not their pick of $130million.....I dont even think there is more than 1 team at $130mil...I hope there is a tax like that so teams like the Royals and Marlins can get some extra $ thrown our way......

I agree that a luxury tax is of no good & basically ineffective when it is set at such a high level. I also read that this tax would not take effect until 2006. It's a sham counter offer by the union IMO. The Yanks current payroll is some where just under $120 Mil I think. And even at that level they have been killing baseball. So IMO, they are about the only team that would probably have to worry about getting hit with this luxury tax if it is set at that high of a level. And while the Yanks/Steinbrenner are a problem..they are not THE PROBLEM that is curently confronting baseball. It's the entire sytem!

Bringing the Yanks down, or slowing their payroll growth, will not correct the imbalance, or help struggling teams to be competitive. MLB needs to bring the other teams up to create balance. And that can only be accomplished with an effective revenue sharing plan in place inwhich all are involved.

You want the luxury tax to work almost like salary cap. Yes, an organization can go over, but the penalties would be stiff and dissuade teams from doing so. But if you set the tax at such a high level then it is basically rendered useless.

I think it should be set at around 100Mil, with a option that it can be adjusted as needed due to the financial status of MLB overall.

But you also have to look at the fact that the vast majority of teams in MLB are not even close to that 100 Mil mark, so would it generate enough revenue to be of much help. I don't think it is being instituted as that type of "tool" (revenue generating), but to simply dissuade teams from going over it and implemented some sort of control.

The revenue sharing plan is what is needed to mainly help other financially struggling teams. That is the crux of this whole matter.

But as to the original intent of this thread.... Yes, I will be back as far as watching, listening, and following the games. But I wil do just as I did in 1994. I will not expend one red cent on MLB for 2 years as far as going to games or buying any merchandise.

I may be a baseball addict, but I'm also not an idiot who will let anyone walk all over me without me taking some sort of stand and voicing my opinion!

TeamCasey

08-17-2002, 09:57 AM

I'm with Creek. I'll listen/watch, but won't go anymore.

I'm really mad that they even set a strike date, even though I knew it was coming.

Who knows though, it's hard to stay mad forever. I'm sure I'll give in. I usually do.
:(

GoReds

08-17-2002, 10:34 AM

I'm in that boat as well. We spent major money making the trip from Virginia to Cincinnati to stay for five days. The trip is a good enough distance (8 hours) that we can really afford to do this maybe once a year, which is what we had planned.

However, if the strike occurs, I don't care who's at fault. We won't be coming back for a long time, if ever. I'll continue to watch, listen and visit this forum, but that will be the extent of it.

top6

08-17-2002, 10:59 AM

I didn't watch, listen or go to a baseball game (outside of a few work-related outings) from 1994 until the end of 1998. I imagine it would be at least 6 or 7 years this time.

Phil in BG

08-17-2002, 11:13 AM

Even in the off season we're interested due to trades and such. If there is a work stoppage for the rest of this season and then throughout the winter....I know I'll lose interest. I'll just find other things to read and become interested in. Eventually when they come back, I'll come back. It's just simply my favorite sport. There just seriously needs to be a way to get an even playing field for the teams. The disparity is just too great. Unfortunately the owners will again cave and give the players what they want and things won't change. They look too short term and only care about their current investment. They could care less about the future of the game. I'm not sure I'd see it any differently if it were my money. I hope so, but it's doubtful.

GradyHatton

08-17-2002, 11:31 AM

I'll be back (ticket buying back) only if they fix the game this time. If another WS is lost without changes to allow smaller market teams WITH sound management a chance to compete AND to retain core players, then I'll never buy another ticket. I'll watch on TV. I can justify this in my little mind because I'm not a Nielsen house and therefore do not influence ratings. I still love the game and can watch and enjoy a season ending meaningless White Sox vs. Devil Rays game (or any other non contenders) . I will (and have) watch/attend minor league and college games where I neither know the players or care who wins. Without drastic changes we are looking at a future where we can't afford (or will be TOLD we can't) to keep both Dunn and Kearns. Where we still can't afford to draft Scott Boras clients without some clever but potentially destructive maneuvering like Bowden devised for Espinosa and Sardina. NO, I've had quite enough of this and won't be back even if they don't strike UNLESS they fix the system. That's just me however and I certainly do not presume to speak for anyone else.

CbusRed

08-17-2002, 11:35 AM

Screw all those hippy "this is baseballs last chance with me" punks. If you dont come back and watch after a strike, you dont love baseball. Anyone who has ever worked in a union shop can relate to this. Unions, Labor agreements, and strikes are part of our society, and baseball is included. Do you think you are going to teach these billionaire owners and Millionaire players a lesson by not coming to their games? NO. these people are set for life no matter what happens. They dont care. If you shut baseball out of your life over something like this, then that is your loss. In fact, I hope that those people who say they will never watch baseball again, stick to their guns. They are the fans that go to games because "everybody else is doing it". These "trendy" fans that like to buy season tickets in the lower level to impress clients/dates/whatever. Prime example - I went to my first ever game in cleveland last year. This was still during the streak of sellout games they had. I have never been so angry at random people in my life. all the people that buy seats and just sit out in the aisles and watch the game on TV while smoking and talking on their cellphones, And the worst, A family that sat in front of us that had the husband, wife, and three kids, the husband watched the game, but the wife and kids sat there and watched some stupid disney movie on a portable DVD player. WHAT IS THE POINT? STAY AT HOME AND WATCH DVDS WITH YOUR SPOILED BRATS! LET TRUE FANS THAT DONT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY RIDICULOUS SCALPERS SIT IN YOUR SEATS.
Anyway, I got way off the subject.... My point is, If you dont wanna forgive baseball for having disagreements over something that doesnt even concern you, Then I hope to never see you at the ballpark again. AND THAT INCLUDES PLAYOFF GAMES YOU FAIRWEATHER FREAKS!
Marty made a good comment the other night during the rain delay. Someone called in and asked him whose side he took on this matter, marty said he doesnt care, he doesnt think that he should be one to say how someone else should spend THEIR money.
Come on people lets not use this as a reason to *****. Its not like our income tax is going into the owners or players pockets. No one is forcing you to pay these people. these owners are businessmen, they can do whatever they want with their money/assets (i.e. art modell and the browns/ravens) It just so happens that some of us have a love affair with this great game, and people like me dont mind spending some cash to go to the ballpark, no matter what the situation. There are no bad guys in this situation. The players are paid because the owners can pay them that much, and the owners have a right to do whatever they want with their money. If you stop going to games, the owners arent going to make money, meaning they cant pay players, meaning the owners will be seeking a change or seek to get out of the business as a whole. Then what do we have? Cincinnati with no baseball? The United States of America with no baseball? Do you really want to see that? What is that going to prove? Who will be "learning their lesson"? Ignorant baseball follwers, Please dont ruin it for us who enjoy baseball. Wihout baseball, what are we supposed to do with our summers? watch.... MLS??? .....please.

ramp101

08-17-2002, 11:37 AM

Hey GAC

Yankees payroll is just over $144million

ridiculous

TeamCasey

08-17-2002, 02:00 PM

CBus,

I'm not even sure where to start, regarding your post. I will argue your first statement. I think baseball has and will lose some of their greatest baseball fans, because they feel so passionately for the game and hate to see it in the state it's in. Many are not simply casual fans.

Cbus - "Screw all those hippy "this is baseballs last chance with me" punks. If you dont come back and watch after a strike, you dont love baseball. "

GradyHatton,

Nicely put. I agree. If they're going to strike, they better take the time to really fix the problems. Phil's probably right, and we won't see the progress that we'd like.

creek14

08-17-2002, 02:00 PM

Hey CBus, I've been to at least 1500 MLB games in the past 20 years. I get there on time, I don't leave until the final out. I've sat through 100 degree games. I have sat through 30 degree games. So you're telling me if the players strike and I choose not to pay for a ticket for a few years then I am not a "real fan"?

CrackerJack

08-17-2002, 02:06 PM

I won't go to any games next year that's for certain, and probably the year or so after that.

I'm not some lemming who spends my hard earned money so millionaires can fight over who gets the most and then slaps me in the face by cancelling a season because they're scared of change.

If this season is cancelled the right thing for fans to do would be to slap some reality into these pampered souls and not go to any games at all.

See how they feel when there's no cash flow and they're playing in front of nobody for a year or two. Oh, that's happening in a lot of places already isn't it?

TeamCasey

08-17-2002, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by creek14
Hey CBus, I've been to at least 1500 MLB games in the past 20 years. I get there on time, I don't leave until the final out. I've sat through 100 degree games. I have sat through 30 degree games. So you're telling me if the players strike and I choose not to pay for a ticket for a few years then I am not a "real fan"?

No, he's saying that you're a "hippy punk". :p :evilgrin:

creek14

08-17-2002, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by TeamCasey

No, he's saying that you're a "hippy punk". :p :evilgrin:

Well the hippy part is right, but not in the way he was using it. :angel:

ramp101

08-17-2002, 02:20 PM

to the ones who say they wont go to a game for a year or never again:

what if the reds made the postseason?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

creek14

08-17-2002, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by ramp101
to the ones who say they wont go to a game for a year or never again:

what if the reds made the postseason?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Nope.

ramp101

08-17-2002, 02:24 PM

how about the world series?:eek:

creek14

08-17-2002, 02:28 PM

Nope.

See the thing is ramp, some of us have lived through this several times before.

It's like a woman who keeps going back to her abusive husband.

Except we pay to be abused.

ramp101

08-17-2002, 02:30 PM

i see

well i would be able to leave the game..i can barely stand it when the marlins have an off day:D

creek14

08-17-2002, 02:35 PM

Oh don't misunderstand me, I will listen to them over my free radio station.

And I will watch them on Fox Sports Net, which is part of my cable package.

But I won't buy a ticket.

I won't subscrible to MLB radio.

I won't purchase extra innings.

I'm just not going to give them money again for a long time.

mckenzie

08-17-2002, 02:40 PM

everyone is entitled to cbus's opinion.

to compare the baseball union with other unions across the country is ludicrous. no other union in this country has members who average $2.3 million/year in salary.

fans do have a say, with their wallets. if i choose to not ever spend another dime on the game, that is my prerogative. we support the players and the owners by going to games, watching games on tv, buying the products they advertise during the games, and buying merchandise. and if enough people walk away, it does hurt them. owners can spend their money anyway they see fit, so can i.

perhaps you shouldn't tell me or anyone else who is a fan of the game that we don't love the game if we stand up for ourselves in this whole mess. NOBODY is watching out for the fans here.
NOBODY.
baseball has lost touch with the fans. and if they aren't careful, they will look back one day and say, "hey, we didn't have it so bad."

i love this game. it kills me to see this happening.
and it pisses me off to have to listen to people like you tell me what to do with my time and hard earned dollar.

CbusRed

08-17-2002, 03:00 PM

Mckenzie,Im not trying to tell you what to do with your money. but everyone seems to think its OK to tell the owners what to do with THEIR money.

As public as it may seem, baseball is ran by PRIVATE BUSINESSMEN. And who are we to tell these people what to do with their money.

TC, and others.... What is you not going to games going to prove? Who is going to "learn" this lesson that you are trying to "teach"? Ok, everyone stop going to games, do you think baseball is just going to hang around and be sad that nobody likes it? hell no! teams will be sold/folded, whatever. Something will be done to save at least some of the investment that the owners have made. I dont understand what your argument is for? The players wont be affected, they can always go somewhere else and play ball, plus most of them have allready made a small fortune for themselves.

And to all of you who ***** about the players making millions and having no right to be upset.. Face the facts, entertainment makes alot of money. Look at movie stars, writers, musicians, strippers. All these people make alot of money, and they are all doing the same thing, giving people something interesting to look at/listen to/read.

Sure, get pissed at george stienbrenner for buying players, its his money, he knows how to run a business. but also get pissed at Intel for spending alot of money researching and developing that P4 processor that you are using to make your ridiculous posts. The point I am trying to make is that Major League Baseball is a business, has been for a long long time. And if it took you til now to figure this out, I apologize.

So go out and teach baseball that lesson you want to teach, but also study for the lesson its going to teach you when it packs up and leaves for good.

mckenzie

08-17-2002, 03:28 PM

where are these millionaire players going to go play?!?!?!

let's see, there has been an influx of players coming over from japan, do you think they do that for what? OH MONEY.
and players who have left the states to play in japan tend to come back.

so, that leaves us with where? oh the dominican. there's a ton of money to be made in baseball there. it's a POVERTY stricken country. there are players defecting from the country to come play ball in the united states.

cuba? yeah, castro is all for paying ball players incredible money to play.
where oh where will they go?

:rolleyes:

oh, the real job life. 8-5 monday thru friday.
yeah.

unless of course you are assuming that most players play for the love of the game, not the paycheck. and i hate to burst your bubble, but i'm thinking that's not the case.

i believe a lot of people feel this way out of principle. it took a lot for baseball to recover from 94, which it hasn't completely done. i don't think they've got that magic wand lying around again.

TeamCasey

08-17-2002, 03:36 PM

CBus,

Look obviously we differ in opinion and that's cool, but quit with the knocks. My posts aren't ridiculous. No, I don't have the baseball world figured out, but that doesn't make me an idiot.

Baseball either fixes itself or loses altogether. I'm not telling an owner what to do with his money, but I am telling them what I'll do with mine.

westofyou

08-17-2002, 03:41 PM

I remember being in college.

I was the smartest person in the world about business and everything else under the sun.

Then I got out of college.
;)

redsfan4445

08-17-2002, 03:44 PM

100% agree with your last post!!

CrackerJack

08-17-2002, 03:47 PM

CBus baseball won't just "fold up and go away" as you say if a lot of fans quit going to games, talk about being ridiculous. What it WILL do is show baseball they can't take us for granted. They have plenty of money to quibble over.

As you say, it's a business, and in the business world you don't piss off your paying customers and expect them to come back.

creek14

08-17-2002, 03:57 PM

WOY.

Truer words...

:thumbup:

red-in-la

08-17-2002, 04:09 PM

WOY, every time I think I just cannot see things your way, you come up with another GEM.....LOL...thanks!

Cbus, your post almost seems like a dare.

Well, I can tell you this, I grew up on TV and movies. I was a HUGE fan. Then, SAG decided over a several year period to go on strike a few times, because the millionaires were being mistreated.

Well, I don't pay for movie or TV and haven't missed it one bit.

Many people in the world see baseball as enjoyable entertainment.....but it ain't the ONLY entertainment.....and this is what the players do not understand.

I only thank God that I moved out of Cincinnati BEFORE I was forced to pay a tax to build the Bungals and Reds a public stadium....and why was I? because the players make sooo much money that the clbs can no longer afford to build their own.

So don't give me a bunch of BS about me not telling an OWNER what to do with HIS money......HIS hand is so deep in my pockets now that I have to buy larger pants.

If these clowns have the audacity to abuse the fair principles of collective bargaining and go out on strike then they can have their just desserts. They can raise sod in GAB for all I care. And you will get your wish....I won't be back.

And ramp, I won't be back if the Reds are the seconf coming of the BRM. Principles are at stake here...not the silly place in the standings.

Americans fused and fumed around about problems in Isreal and Europe with terrorists.......making believe it was all so far away until 9/11. Now, I think these greedy, self-righteous spoiled brats who play a children's game are about to bring the same reaction upon themselves. The last several strikes were just messing around by players (and fans) who were just arguing about how the kill the fatted calf. I believe this time it is about much more.

For 30 years the owners have given the players pretty much everything they asked for.....well, now it has come time to pay the piper. Every camel has his limit, and a strike two weeks before one of the worst days in American history is going to be the straw that breaks baseball's back.

CougarQuest

08-17-2002, 05:50 PM

In the heat of this, I've been thinking I would give it up. I'm tired of it. I'm tired of wearing my Reds on my sleeve only to have it discarded like yesterdays trash.

I belong to a union. In fact I am a union rep. Have been for over 13 years. Been in a union for 20 years, first with the Teamsters, then with the FOP. I've been on contract meetings for 13 years. I have a good idea of how the whole thing works. I know BS issues and BS cave ins when I see them. I also know how to look at the big picture. I see too many comments from the union and the owners, that obviously don't see the big picture.

The whole notion of this strike or close out, in particular, irratates the hell out of me. This is like a husband & wife getting a divorce. The fans feel like they are the kids, but being treated like the family dog's chew toy by the players and owners.

I get the idea from listening to the players that they don't see the disparity or don't care. The steroids testing is a joke, from the last submission that I saw that the players gave. But they can say they have steroids testing. I'm not sure the owners REALLY want to know if the players are using or not. Which makes it even a bigger joke. Some owners can't control themselves and there appears to be a tear in the collective owners seam, Steinbrenner apparently is siding with the players on the Luxary tax, according to one of the cable news sources I watched last night.

If you don't think that 9-11 will have an impact on fans opinion, I think you are hugely mistaken.

I don't think the players have the support from the fans that they have had in the past. I don't know how many times that I've heard the players reps saying that they have given and given, but the owners aren't giving a reasonable offer. "What have they given?", I've been asked numerous times.

I have serious doubts that baseball can handle a strike or close out, at least MLB as we know it. Sure there are those that will come back no matter what. I understand their feelings. Sure there will be a whole lot of fans that won't come back. I understand their feeling. Me, well I guess we will find out if and when the time comes.

Personally, I still don't think it will happen.

CbusRed

08-17-2002, 05:52 PM

Ok first off.... TeamCasey.. I in no way meant you, when I was talking about ridiculous posts, sorry if it seemed that way...In fact, I shouldnt have even put that at all, I honestly dont know who I was referring to. I was just heated...

RFIC, You say baseball wont fold up and go away? what is it going to do then, Are the owners just going to suck it up and take losses year in and year out?
You are right, It will show baseball that it cant take fans for granted.... But I ask you this, what will it take to bring you back to the park? lower ticket prices? lower concession prices? Better players? all these things take away from revenue, which (sadly) is what major league baseball is all about. Basically, what I am saying is that the owners will have very few options if everyone stops going to games. which leads me to believe that they could fold.

I just really think it is stupid to boycott something that you love, simply because the providers stop giving it for a while. No one is forcing carl lindner to keep the reds in cincy where he averages less than half his capacity attendance per game. Hell, The owners could decide tomorrow that they dont want to have baseball anymore, then what will we do?
I think we as fans take baseball for granted alot, we dont remember that we ultimatley have no say in the demise of this game, It is ran by businessmen that can do what they want. Look at art modell, (disclaimer: I think it was very funny when Cleveland lost their team, but thats only because I hate the browns). Art wasnt happy with the way things were going in Cleveland, so he packed up and left, and no one could do jack. What is to stop Carl Lindner from doing that if after a strike, we average 5000 people a game?

I just think you all should think about the consequences before you make such a rash decision. Maybe baseball means alot more to me than the average person. But I do not want to see baseball taken away from me.

Did anyone stop shipping UPS after they struck a couple years ago?

Heres to hoping that this is all a moot point and there is an agreement before the 30th!! :beerme:

red-in-la

08-17-2002, 06:00 PM

Cbus, this is where you miss the salient point. UPS drivers don't average 2.3 million dollars a year.

I am not a Union kinda guy....but I can respect that CourgarQuest is. CQ doesn't pretentd to be in a union when it suits his wants but then turn to his agent when he wants to be an individual.

THis is hypocisy in the nth degree and mocks all other unions who have a valid purpose.

There just isn't anymore vanilla coating that you can slather on the basic problem anymore.

We were told, build us new stadiums and that will fix the problem, so we built the stadiums....now we are told, let us contract and realign, that will fix it.......then Selig tells Congress that the industry is losing 500 million a year.

And on top of that, you happen to be a Reds fan, so, you have to hope for the eternal MIRALCE every year so that your team LOOKS like it can compete.......

For anybody to say it ain't broke is beyond me.

CbusRed

08-17-2002, 06:06 PM

2.3 mil a year or 20 grand a year, WHO CARES!! they are providing a service. I dont care what you make at your job, you shouldnt care what I make at my job. the owners can pay the players what they want, its THEIR money. individual salary is NOT the issue. what does it have to do with anything?

TeamCasey

08-17-2002, 06:19 PM

Well CBus,

I have to give you kudos for your convictions. I sincerely do. You're sticking to your guns with a probable- less than popular opinion. I simply can't give in to the fear of losing the Reds. We already went through that with the new stadiums proposition. I can't be held hostage again. I won't do it. I'm also of the belief that baseball will never die, but if it folded, it would come back looking much differently than it does today and better. You see, I can give up MLB. I could fanaticize a minor league, or some other form of the game. I really could, I did it with football.

I was a Browns fan, because my Dad was. It was an entertainment that we shared. You know what? I don't follow any particular football team right now. I walked away from football because of Art Modell. I watch, but not with the same interest. I'll follow baseball, but it will be tainted for me. It's not because I'm a casual fan, it's because I'm a passionate fan that shrugged and walked away.

CougarQuest

08-17-2002, 06:31 PM

Individual salaries absolutely is the issue. Individual salaries are what the Union is worried about. Individual salaries are what the owners are worried about. It's not the cost of hotdogs that they are worried about. It's individual salaries.

The Union doesn't want the luxary tax because that will prevent teams from being able to give higher and higher multi million dollar individual salaries.

The Owners want the luxary tax because some of the owners can't stop themselves from getting a player they always wanted, and thereby paying that kind of money, thereby increasing everyone elses individual salary, because Joe can say that he is worth at least 50% of what Rod is worth. And when it goes to arbitration, and the arbitrator looks at the stats , guess what, he is 50% as good as Rod, so guess what, he gets his salary demands. Owners can't hold too much back, because if they do, then there is another colusion lawsuit. So they CAN'T pay players what they want.

GAC

08-17-2002, 06:56 PM

Quote bt Cbus.... "My point is, If you dont wanna forgive baseball for having disagreements over something that doesnt even concern you, Then I hope to never see you at the ballpark again. AND THAT INCLUDES PLAYOFF GAMES YOU FAIRWEATHER FREAKS!"

Strong words for a very young man
;) . I've been a fan of baseball since the early 60's, and have been to way too many games to try and count them. You first say that it "doesn't even concern you". Really? It doesn't concern us when they continue to ask the taxpayers to pass levies to pay for their new stadiums and then charge you an arm & a leg to buy a ticket (let alone pay for the concessions)? Are we suppose to be like "blind sheep with our tongues hanging out" every time either the players or owners show indifference towards those fans who support the game and walk all over us?

The players have a union that enables them to have a united voice to express their dissatifaction and air their grievances. But what of the fans? Are you saying that we don't count? Sorry, but boycotting the game, and showing a "united effort" is a very strong & sensible tool for the fans to show that they do carry some clout, regardless of what the players or owners may think.

The lack of fan attendance hurt the game for 2-3 years after the '94 strike. MLB did the Curly Shuffle to win back support, and yet attendance has never fully recovered to the levels they would like.

And the players know that to strike this time could be very disastrous to the game. Yes they may be stupid enough to still do it. But it will cause irreparable damage to the game and drive away many of the "casual" fans. The die hards will come back..but only after they have let their voice & displeasure be known for awhile by boycotting the game.

The players and owners have gotten way too big for their britches, and more importantly, carry the same attitude you expressed by saying to us "it doesn't concern you" or "you don't count".

And it does not mean that we are fair weather fans, as you so apply described us.

It's about a thing called principle!

letsgojunior

08-17-2002, 07:09 PM

Tom Verducci said it best when he said the players didn't care about winning a public relations war, they cared about winning a labor war. So if they don't care about us, why should we care about them? They have never given a single inch in their entire lives. The players have won every single labor dispute in the last 20 years.

What really irks me is when people like Mark Grace go on Sportscenter and ramble on about how the PA is making 'sacrifices' and that if the owners really want to make a deal they will reach won. What sacrifices Mark? Having a luxury tax that serves as a slap on the wrist for ONE team? Having a steroid testing policy which a respected member of the World Anti-Doping committee and the chairman of NYU Medical Center called a joke?

All these guys care about is money right now, and it honestly makes me sick to my stomach. They don't care that at the beginning of the year over half the teams can't complete. All they care about is seeing that every player makes a ton of money, regardless of whether that player is being paid $12 million dollars to start every now and then. There are too many teams right now and too much diluted talent, but no one cares. There are too many owners pocketing money from revenue sharing that they should be using to bolster their payroll. There are too many owners who give players $252 million dollar contracts when the next highest bidder was around $130 million.

Both sides are being incredibly stubborn and selfish. They look like idiots with their stupid "We are making sacrifices" comments when there are still firefighters and relief workers cleaning up the remains of the worst tragedy on American soil. Some workers can't go on strike for fear of losing their job. And we are supposed to have any sort of sympathy for people who live in fantasy world?

I have loved this sport since I was little, so I honestly can't say whether or not I will ever be back if they strike. Most likely I won't go to any games for a few years. Maybe I will watch on tv if the Reds are doing well. But honestly, if they do strike, it will do irreparable damage to an already dying sport.

mahanace

08-17-2002, 10:08 PM

I know what I'll be doing if they strike August 30th. Can you sing, "Are you Ready for some football?!"

GAC

08-17-2002, 10:19 PM

Let the players strike. They'll only be shooting themselves in the foot. And then they can all sit around and scratch their heads maybe nexy year when so many seats are empty.

The owners may pay therir salaries, but where do owners count on their revenue coming from?

mckenzie

08-18-2002, 12:22 PM

gac's post summed up my feelings exactly. i wasn't able to express them because this conversation ruffled my feathers too much.

i went to the game last night and had a great time. it made me sad to think that was it for the year, maybe more. i love this game, i love this team. i don't know if i can support this any longer though if they do go on strike. will i come back? maybe slowly and eventually, but i honestly don't know.

fans do matter. fans do care. i wish the players and owners (because i am not singling out either party) would realize that.

cbus, if you are able to go back, that's great. (by the way...on the ups thing, they lost 8% volume initially after the strike and are down 5% across the board. and when they had their contract up this summer, people started jumping ship to make sure their packages would get to where they were going)

CbusRed

08-18-2002, 09:26 PM

Mckenzie, ok, but what if there was no fedex or US mail, then what would people have done? started delivering packages themselves? what competition does baseball have? (and dont even say MLS, WUSA, or WNBA,)

BuckeyeRedleg

08-18-2002, 09:45 PM

If they go on strike, I'm done forever. I will not attend another game or buy any MLB merchandise.

If they went on strike and the Reds happened to be in first place AGAIN, a baseball game would never be allowed on any of my televisions in my house.... EVER!

My son can play Lacrosse for all I care, and I HATE Lacrosse.

I have so many friends that have lost their jobs, including a family member that happened to have the bad luck of working for Arthur Anderson. My company has been through 6 layoffs in the past year. Our organization cut 60%. The stock market sucks, 401K's are worth less than 5 years ago, people are forced to hold off on their retirements for another 10 years while they struggle to find a decent job other than flipping burgers or delivering pizza.

Meanwhile our country struggles to get over the tragedy of 9-11.

And these asses think they're going to go on strike AGAIN?!?!?

Cincinnati is a purest baseball town. They think attendance is bad now? Well the true, diehard baseball fans in this town will find something else to do. It will kill them, but they will.

And I will.

Go Bungals!

The NFL looks better and better every day.

CougarQuest

08-18-2002, 09:46 PM

what competition does baseball have?

It's an entertainment, remember? Whatever other entertainment people want to spend their money on.

TeamCasey

08-19-2002, 07:42 AM

Baseball knows fans will return

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the ballplayers walk Aug. 30, you're right behind them. They'll never get another nickel outta you, those overpaid millionaires and their civic-blackmailing owners. This time, you mean it.

Uh-huh.

We'd love to have that power. It might force the two sides to consider their customers, which would be different. Only, we don't have the stomach for it. Never have. If everyone who said in 1994 they'd never go to another game actually followed through, the average crowd today would fit in a VW bus.

Baseball fans are the angry parent who threatens to kick a miscreant teen-ager out of the house the next time they bust curfew. They are the bully on the playground who draws the line in the dirt, then re-draws it every time it's crossed.

Here's the reality behind the rhetoric. Here is what baseball has banked on, literally, for the last 30 years:

If you're a fan, you won't go away. Not for good. You always come back.

Reds fans wearing their colors are Alex Wamsley, 14 (left) and Michael Purdy, 16, from Wheelersburg, Ohio.
(Michael E. Keating photo)
| ZOOM |
A recent study authored by two college professors addressed the effects of the 1981 and '94 walkouts. David Berri and Martin Schmidt write, “Neither strike has had a lasting effect on attendance ... Recovery occurs almost immediately.”

You always come back. It might take longer in some places, Cincinnati being one. The Reds averaged 31,628 in 60 games before the '94 strike; in '95, they got 25,882. But in 2000, they drew more people than in any year but 1976.

This isn't to say baseball doesn't have issues. But fan revolt owing to labor unrest isn't one of them. Fans are sheep. I say that as a fan.

We put up with anything: strikes, lockouts, new-stadium blackmail, decades of losing, $54 tickets for football games in August. We condone all sorts of behavior: drug use, spouse abuse, steroids, grade-fixing. Whatever. Just entertain us.

Baseball depends on our ability to take a punch. Baseball has never considered the impact its labor actions have on fans because it's never had to. We always come back.

Ba-a-a-a-h.

We can't even organize a decent one-day boycott. Just this month, two national efforts promoting a single-game stay-away flopped. Even with attendance down 6 percent, there is no shortage of people paying to watch baseball. On Saturday, 40,658 bitter people watched the A's in Oakland. More than 46,000 fans, no doubt equally miserable, filled Safeco Field in Seattle.

Minnesota had 36,000 in the Metrodome to watch Pedro Martinez and the Red Sox, even as another 40,000 people attended the PGA Championship in nearby Chaska.

A strike won't kill baseball. Soccer might. Baseball's at-a-crawl pace might. Its past-our-bedtime postseason might. Its insistence on godding-up its past at the expense of its never-better present could do it. So could its chronic pessimism and the absolute rule of King George in New York. Those knives have cut the game for years.

But a walkout won't occasion the apocalypse. We'll come back when they do.

Ba-a-a-h.

I believe he just called us sheep! ..... and you know what? He's probably right! Even I admit, I can't stay angry for long.

WebScorpion

08-19-2002, 10:41 AM

Yea, Philip Morris counted on the fact that I couldn't quit smoking too...and that was a physical addiction. Sayonara strikers! ;)

Roy Tucker

08-19-2002, 11:12 AM

Personally speaking, if they go on strike, it will be when the Browns left Cleveland.

I used to be a huge Browns fan, as big or maybe even bigger than a Reds fan (and that's saying something).

I mean, I started as a Browns fan back in the late 50-'s, Jimmy Brown, Leroy Kelley, Frank Ryan, Brian Sipe, Greg Pruitt, Berney Kosar, the whole 9 yards. We would make the pilgramage from Cincy to Cleveland 3-4 times a year, every year, sit in the Dawg Pound, wear stupid masks, wear my Clay Matthews jersey, etc. I subscribed to Browns News Illustrated. Lou Groza was my dad's insurance guy. Lived in Berea from ages 5-12 and my friends and I would go be ball boys at their practices. I *loved* the Browns. After The Drive and The Fumble I was disconsolate for weeks. Would plan my whole weekend around the Browns game since it had priority over everything. My greatest fear was when my son was due Jan. 30, 1988 and that was real close to Siper Bowl time and the Browns had a chance. I seriously considered naming him Bernie.

Modell moved the team. Not to be dramatic, but something inside of me broke. And the opposite of love is not hate, but apathy.

I haven't been back to another NFL game and probably never will. I'll watch a game on TV every so often but only when I've got nothing else to do (which is seldom). Besides Tim Couch, I can't tell you who else is on the Browns. They permanently (and I mean *forever*) lost me as a fan. Oh, I tried to revive my interest when the New Browns started, but it just wasn't the same and it just didn't stick. It was sad for a while but I got over it. And I discovered Sunday afternoons in the fall are a nice time to take hikes with the family.

MLB goes on strike and loses the postseason, well, that'll be it for me. I can endure a few days, but if they lose the season on me, I just won't care anymore. The Reds will be like the Browns, check the score on Monday AM and say "hmmm, they lost, whats the weather going to be".

bucksfan

08-19-2002, 12:35 PM

I'm kind of a mix of many of your opinions. The biggest thought in my mind right now though is "I'm not sure what I'll do". The last strike made me lose a good deal of interest, that actually lessened over time (i.e. I regained some interest up to it's present level of "pretty darn high"!).

For me, college sports is still the best thing going, but I'd miss the Reds and the "fabric-of-our-lives"-ness of baseball. Up through high school, my Mom and Dad and I spent our annual vacation going to Cincinnati for a weekend of Reds baseball. We were not rich by any means, so this was a big thing for us. Even after Dad died, Mom and I still took our main vacation with the Reds travels mapping our course. The game was ALWAYS on the radio (WIMA Lima) and to this day still is in Mom's house. I played baseball my whole life. It is a big part of me, or at least who I was. I would hate to not have that, but I am also a lot more now. I am a husband and a father. I'd love to share with my little girl the joys I got from baseball, if only because I would like her to understand how to appreciate something that isn't solid "in-your-face" entertainment all the time, but a timeless game of battles-within-the-battle. There will be other ways to help her acquire this type of appreciation of things, but 'd like baseball to be available to help wioth it since it was a part of my life. But if not, we'll get into something else and be just fine.

I don't go to more than 1 or 2 games a year. A strike would bring that down to zero for a little while just like the last one did. Not really trying to teach anyone anything here, just a result of how I would feel. Besides that, MLB gets very little of my money. I listen to games on the radio or watch what I can on our standard cable channels much like creek said (altho' I consider getting DirectTV at times, just don't want to get hooked on another monthly expense right now). A large part of what remains attractive to me about baseball is that I can follow it very closely quite cheaply. I would just have a hard time deciding to spend my time and money on a sport that is not always "there for me" so to speak, when I have other viable options for my entertainment/recreational dollar and time.

It is a very individual decision. I can understand many views on the subject. To say someone's view on this is wrong or ridiculous is really the ridiculous statement. Many great fans will be turned away from the game, and of course many will stick with it as well. I don't think a person's reaction to this is a barometer that measures how true a fan that person is.

bucksfan

08-19-2002, 12:41 PM

I also meanto to add that I was in nearly the exact same position as Roy, though not quite the fanatic he was with the Browns. I new every player, every single player on the Brows roster. Knew their background, strengths/weaknesses, etc. Bernie Kosar was my favorite player of any sport at any time save for Tony Perez. Then they left. Just like that, no Browns. I have tried and tried to get back into it. NFL is a great entertaining sport. But I have not been able to come close to the same passion that I had before the exodus (Bob Marley singing in the background ). I still try, but they just seem to have lost me. If I lived IN Cleveland maybe I'd be back at full force, but as it is, I am no where close to that level yet.