No Kearns, RA batting 4th, Dunn 5th

[reds44]

Freel RF
Lopez SS
Griffey CF
Aurilia 3B
Dunn LF
Hatteberg 1B
Phillips 2B
LaRue C
Harang P


Why does Narron tweak the lineup EVERY night! Dunn has 2 hits in the 2 spot, why move him?

Why take Kearns out of the lineup to keep RA in? It makes no sense.

[Matt700wlw]

Well...at least Freel's in there.

I guess. :D

[OnBaseMachine]

Narron is a joke

Dunn gets on base three times in the number two spot...and he drops him. And he continues to bat Aurilia and his .599 OPS vs RHP in the cleanup spot. Narron is one of the five worst managers in baseball.

Extending his contract is horrible news for the Reds young players.

[Red Leader]

Did you think Aurilia would be out of the lineup on the day Narron is celebrating his extension? :dunno:

[RedsManRick]

Narron's fascination with RA in the 4 spot is perhaps the only thing where I can sit here and say "what the heck are you possibly thinking?"

[Matt700wlw]

Narron's fascination with RA in the 4 spot is perhaps the only thing where I can sit here and say "what the heck are you possibly thinking?"

I don't get it either.

Maybe Aurilia has made threats :D

They have won more games with RA in the 4 hole than anybody else, which is still odd....but I guess when you have a winning record, and he's been in the 4 hole more than anybody else this sesason, that stat would make sense...

[oneupper]

:help: We can look forward to 3 more years of these crappy lineups...

[BRM]

Narron is a joke

Dunn gets on base three times in the number two spot...and he drops him. And he continues to bat Aurilia and his .599 OPS vs RHP in the cleanup spot. Narron is one of the five worst managers in baseball.

Extending his contract is horrible news for the Reds young players.

I hate to do it but I agree with this entire post. I try not to be all that negative a person but Narron just kills me.

[Matt700wlw]

Narron is one of the five worst managers in baseball.



Hardly.

Confusing, maybe :D

[BRM]

Hardly.

Confusing, maybe :D

He may not be one of the five worst but I can't imagine there are too many managers that would continue to plug RA in the 4 hole night after night.

[reds44]

Every day RA bats 4th makes me think it is less and less likely EE will have his starting job back on Friday.

And that makes me twice as mad then losing to the Royals.

[BRM]

Every day RA bats 4th makes me think it is less and less likely EE will have his starting job back on Friday.

And that makes me twice as mad then losing to the Royals.


I think EE will get his job back. RA will still hit 4th though while playing 1B.

[Tom Servo]

Eh, I liked last night's better. Seemed like Jerry was onto something with Dunn at #2, why not give it another shot?

And as always, Aurilia at clean up continues to baffle me. Hell, Aurilia being in the lineup at all baffles me.

[OnBaseMachine]

EE will probably play 3-4 games a week and Rich will get the rest of the starts at 3B. Narron will come up with a lame excuse to justify it - something like he doesn't want EE playing everyday with a bad ankle. :rolleyes:

[Matt700wlw]

I think EE will get his job back. RA will still hit 4th though while playing 1B.

The platoon thing will probably happen again.

EE needs to play when he gets back.

[TOBTTReds]

I think he is one of the worst managers. He just doesn't have a clue on what certain parts of the lineup are supposed to do. I am so angry with the extension, I though Kriv would know better. he also has no idea how to develop younger players, just awful.

[reds44]

The platoon thing will probably happen again.

EE needs to play when he gets back.
He needs to play, but you never know with Narron.

[redsfanmia]

What has Narron done to deserve to get drilled like he does here? He has a team that nearly everyone expected to be one of the worst in the league 1.5 games out of first place and leading the wild card, Im not sure if they will stay there all season but the guy has done a great job IMO. His line up tweaking seems to work or aleast thats what the Reds win/loss record says.

[Matt700wlw]

I think he is one of the worst managers. He just doesn't have a clue on what certain parts of the lineup are supposed to do. I am so angry with the extension, I though Kriv would know better. he also has no idea how to develop younger players, just awful.


His job isn't to develop younger players...that's the job of the minor leagues.

[CTA513]

:help: We can look forward to 3 more years of these crappy lineups...


Like I said in the other thread... When does Aurilia get a new contract?

:help:

[Matt700wlw]

What has Narron done to deserve to get drilled like he does here? He has a team that nearly everyone expected to be one of the worst in the league 1.5 games out of first place and leading the wild card, Im not sure if they will stay there all season but the guy has done a great job IMO. His line up tweaking seems to work or aleast thats what the Reds win/loss record says.

As much as some of it doesn't make sense all the time.......you're right.

I can question things with the best of them, but then I look at the Reds record and standings and realize things really are going well, even if it doesn't always make sense.

[rdiersin]

EE will probably play 3-4 games a week and Rich will get the rest of the starts at 3B. Narron will come up with a lame excuse to justify it - something like he doesn't want EE playing everyday with a bad ankle. :rolleyes:

To be fair to Narron, these types of things were said before the season started, and personally I feared it as well, but EE for the most part was at 3rd everyday. Why would that change now?

[OnBaseMachine]

His job isn't to develop younger players...that's the job of the minor leagues.

His job isn't to ruin young players either. He's damn good at that.

[redsmetz]

You know, there is some seriously bad karma coming out of the Redzone today. The hatred of Jerry Narron is almost unbelievable. While I don't agree with all of his moves, the hyperbole on this board is almost laughable. We're in 2nd place, for goodness sake, when the pundits were writing our obit. And that's with a pathetic bullpen that couldn't get my grandmother out (and she's been dead for nearly 40 years!).

Some serious over reacting going on, IMO.

[Puffy]

What has Narron done to deserve to get drilled like he does here? He has a team that nearly everyone expected to be one of the worst in the league 1.5 games out of first place and leading the wild card, Im not sure if they will stay there all season but the guy has done a great job IMO. His line up tweaking seems to work or aleast thats what the Reds win/loss record says.

Bob Boone once had the Reds at 36-24 and in first place after 60 games.

I think you know the rest.

[reds44]

His job isn't to develop younger players...that's the job of the minor leagues.
When young players are in the minors it is the job of the minor league coaches, but when young players get to the majors it is the managers job.

[redsfanmia]

Like I said in the other thread... When does Aurilia get a new contract?

:help:


Aurilia is not a bad player and he is not breaking the bank. A winning team need players like Aurilia, he plays 3 positions and seems to hit well, I think the money that Aurilia is getting is well spent.

[CTA513]

You know, there is some seriously bad karma coming out of the Redzone today. The hatred of Jerry Narron is almost unbelievable. While I don't agree with all of his moves, the hyperbole on this board is almost laughable. We're in 2nd place, for goodness sake, when the pundits were writing our obit. And that's with a pathetic bullpen that couldn't get my grandmother out (and she's been dead for nearly 40 years!).

Some serious over reacting going on, IMO.

The Reds are lucky to be in a division in which almost all the teams are struggeling, including the Cardinals.

[OnBaseMachine]

To be fair to Narron, these types of things were said before the season started, and personally I feared it as well, but EE for the most part was at 3rd everyday. Why would that change now?

Narron hinted a few weeks back that EE could lose his starting job because of the errors. Which is just stupid, IMO. Almost every young player makes errors when they first come up. Narron has no patience, and that is not something I want to see out of a manager around younger players.

[Puffy]

Narron's fascination with RA in the 4 spot is perhaps the only thing where I can sit here and say "what the heck are you possibly thinking?"

Come on, seriously??

You use the word "heck"??

[CTA513]

Aurilia is not a bad player and he is not breaking the bank. A winning team need players like Aurilia, he plays 3 positions and seems to hit well, I think the money that Aurilia is getting is well spent.

Hes also batting 4th... how many teams would have Aurilia bat 4th?

[Matt700wlw]

When young players are in the minors it is the job of the minor league coaches, but when young players get to the majors it is the managers job.


They should already know how to make routine plays, catch the ball, lay down a bunt, run bases...etc. etc. etc.

[reds44]

Narron hinted a few weeks back that EE could lose his starting job because of the errors. Which is just stupid, IMO. Almost every young player makes errors when they first come up. Narron has no patience, and that is not something I want to see out of a manager around younger players.
EE has been our best hitter this year. If you don't want him playing 3rd put him at 1st. Don't take his bat out of the lineup.

[redsfanmia]

[QUOTE=Puffy]Bob Boone once had the Reds at 36-24 and in first place after 60 games.

I think you know the rest.[/QU
Jerry Narron is no Bob Boone and he has basically had success for a full year now.

[rdiersin]

Narron hinted a few weeks back that EE could lose his starting job because of the errors. Which is just stupid, IMO. Almost every young player makes errors when they first come up. Narron has no patience, and that is not something I want to see out of a manager around younger players.

And in spring training he said he was going to have to earn playing time. Honestly, it seems his bark is worse than his bite.

[reds44]

They should already know how to make routine plays, catch the ball, lay down a bunt, run bases...etc. etc. etc.
Yeah his job isn't to teach him that, but his job is not to screw with their heads by not playing them, and not giving them consistent at bats.

Ryan Wagner's career was ruined because of his head being messed with.

[BRM]

The Reds are lucky to be in a division in which almost all the teams are struggeling, including the Cardinals.

That has certainly helped them stick around to this point.

[reds44]

And in spring training he said he was going to have to earn playing time. Honestly, it seems his bark is worse than his bite.
He did earn it. Did you see his spring training stats?

[Matt700wlw]

Ryan Wagner's career was ruined because of his head being messed with.


That's not Jerry's fault.

[shredda2000]

You know, there is some seriously bad karma coming out of the Redzone today. The hatred of Jerry Narron is almost unbelievable. While I don't agree with all of his moves, the hyperbole on this board is almost laughable. We're in 2nd place, for goodness sake, when the pundits were writing our obit. And that's with a pathetic bullpen that couldn't get my grandmother out (and she's been dead for nearly 40 years!).

Some serious over reacting going on, IMO.

Everyone just take a deep breath...it is gonna be OK :D

[redsfanmia]

Hes also batting 4th... how many teams would have Aurilia bat 4th?
I agree with this but to keep downgrading the guy is nonsense, he doesnt make out the line-ups and has even joked about batting fourth. I really dont have a problem with him batting clean-up against lefthanders.

[reds44]

That's not Jerry's fault.
You're right, but if Edwin doesn't get consistent at bats to get RA in the lineup and Edwin's career goes down the crapper, that will be Narron's fault.

That was the point of my post.

[Cedric]

I wonder if people think they over analyze things a wee bit much. I bet Sparky Anderson would have been cyber fired about ten times if Redszone was around in the 70's.

The internet fever, catch it.

[Matt700wlw]

You're right, but if Edwin doesn't get consistent at bats to get RA in the lineup and Edwin's career goes down the crapper, that will be Narron's fault.

That was the point of my post.

He was getting consistant at bats before he went on the DL.

That's all I can go by.

[rdiersin]

He did earn it. Did you see his spring training stats?

Yes, and that says what? What are you trying to argue here? I know EE should be playing 3rd, the only point I was making is that he still will be playing 3rd when he gets back and this whole thing about RA going to start at 3rd most of the time is quite possibly a bit over the top.

[reds44]

He was getting consistant at bats before he went on the DL.

That's all I can go by.
Yes I know.

It better be the same starting Friday.

[RichRed]

Aurilia is not a bad player and he is not breaking the bank. A winning team need players like Aurilia, he plays 3 positions and seems to hit well, I think the money that Aurilia is getting is well spent.

It's been pointed out time and time again, but Aurilia's performance at the plate AND in the field should get him a one-way ticket to Platoonville or Bench City, certainly not Cleanuptown.

[CTA513]

I agree with this but to keep downgrading the guy is nonsense, he doesnt make out the line-ups and has even joked about batting fourth. I really dont have a problem with him batting clean-up against lefthanders.

I have no problem with him playing, its just to bad the Reds havent figured out that Aurilia shouldnt be batting 4th. I also wish they would figure out a line up and stick with it. It seems like theres a different line up for every game so far.

[red-in-la]

Narron is a joke

Dunn gets on base three times in the number two spot...and he drops him. And he continues to bat Aurilia and his .599 OPS vs RHP in the cleanup spot. Narron is one of the five worst managers in baseball.

Extending his contract is horrible news for the Reds young players.

Surprized you are not more amazed that Narron continues to start a guy hitting .165 for the season, and .095 in June.

[OnBaseMachine]

Surprized you are not more amazed that Narron continues to start a guy hitting .165 for the season, and .095 in June.

Nope, because I know LaRue will snap out of it before long. LaRue has been a solid player throughout his career, this is simply a slow start (only 100 atbats) and part of it could be attributed to his knee injury in the spring.

[flyer85]

So how is a guy going to go from cleanup to out of the lineup? I'll stick with my prediction that EE isn't going to be an everyday 3B(3-4 starts a week) when he comes back.

[BrooklynRedz]

His job isn't to ruin young players either. He's damn good at that.

Which young players has he ruined? I don't think you can blame Jerry for Womack? :evil:

[registerthis]

His job isn't to ruin young players either. He's damn good at that.

Really? Because Brandon Phillips seems to be doing fine. Encarnacion was playing well until he was injured, and though we all want to I don't know that Lopez's failures can be tied directly to Narron's mismanagement.

[CTA513]

So how is a guy going to go from cleanup to out of the lineup? I'll stick with my prediction that EE isn't going to be an everyday 3B(3-4 starts a week) when he comes back.

EE goes on a rehab assignment, but the veterans dont have to.

:bash:

[reds44]

Really? Because Brandon Phillips seems to be doing fine. Encarnacion was playing well until he was injured, and though we all want to I don't know that Lopez's failures can be tied directly to Narron's mismanagement.
He wanted Dunn to "expand the zone" and Lopez to "make more contact and less power."

We've seen how that has worked out.

[jimbo]

All I know is that the "crappy" lineup Narron put out last night that everyone whined about scored 8 runs. I'm not always crazy about Narron's musical lineups, but how can you not give him the benefit of the doubt because of where he has this team currently? I would be the first in line criticizing Narron if the team was losing and going nowhere but he is getting results. The lineups have not been the cause of the team's recent problems, the bullpen is.

And then ripping him for something that hasn't even happened is a little off-base don't you think?

[reds44]

So how is a guy going to go from cleanup to out of the lineup? I'll stick with my prediction that EE isn't going to be an everyday 3B(3-4 starts a week) when he comes back.
Yep that was my thoughts exactly. It seems like the writing is on the wall.

Although Freel goes from leadoff to out of the lineup.

[OnBaseMachine]

Really? Because Brandon Phillips seems to be doing fine. Encarnacion was playing well until he was injured, and though we all want to I don't know that Lopez's failures can be tied directly to Narron's mismanagement.

Phillips is Narron's type of player (contact BA driven hitter), so naturally he won't tweak with his game. As for EE, give Narron some time. He's already hinted that EE could lose his job if he doesn't start playing better defensively. That type of crap can cause a young player to lose all his confidence.

[jimbo]

EE goes on a rehab assignment, but the veterans dont have to.

:bash:

This is another thing I have no problem with. Veterans generally bounce back quicker after injuries than young players do . This doesn't just happen with the Reds, it happens on other teams also. Chipper Jones earlier this season came of DL and directly into the lineup......and hit a home run his first game back. Didn't Griffey do the same this season? I'm glad it wasn't wasted in Louisville.

[flyer85]

I quit complaining about the batting order a while back. I like Dunn in the 2 hole and don't like Aurilia 4th but Narron has his own view and he likes srcappy Rich in the lineup and hitting cleanup against RH and LH pitchers.

In the end it will be starters like Mays and Milton along with the bullpen that will kill this team.

[Matt700wlw]

Phillips is Narron's type of player (contact BA driven hitter), so naturally he won't tweak with his game. As for EE, give Narron some time. He's already hinted that EE could lose his job if he doesn't start playing better defensively. That type of crap can cause a young player to lose all his confidence.

You and your conspiracy theories....

I feel like I'm in the Sci-Zone! :eek:

[Ltlabner]

He wanted Dunn to "expand the zone"

Seems to me there were about 1,347,286 posts on Redszone this year urging Dunn to just swing at a few more pitches "just outside the zone" and he'd have wonderfull sucess as a hitter. I guess Narron isn't the only one out to wreck the youth movement eh?

By the way, there weren't too many people saying this would be a bad idea. I know Cyclone proved it with his super-cool chart. I remember a few others but am getting too old to remember the names. The point is, most humans in Cincy wanted Dunn to do the exact same thing you are now complaining about.

[OnBaseMachine]

You and your conspiracy theories....

I wish I could agree with every freakin' move the Reds make like you do, but sorry, I can't do that with a team that hasn't had a winning season since 2000 and hasn't made the playoffs since 1995.

[CTA513]

This is another thing I have no problem with. Veterans generally bounce back quicker after injuries than young players do . This doesn't just happen with the Reds, it happens on other teams also. Chipper Jones earlier this season came of DL and directly into the lineup......and hit a home run his first game back. Didn't Griffey do the same this season? I'm glad it wasn't wasted in Louisville.

Mercker and Weathers both got hurt and didnt go on rehab assignments... both got rocked after returning to the bullpen.

[reds44]

Seems to me there were about 1,347,286 posts on Redszone this year urging Dunn to just swing at a few more pitches "just outside the zone" and he'd have wonderfull sucess as a hitter. I guess Narron isn't the only one out to wreck the youth movement eh?

Narron is the manager, we are fans on the message board. We don't make the decisons, he does.

[jimbo]

Mercker and Weathers both got hurt and didnt go on rehab assignments... both got rocked after returning to the bullpen.


Pitchers are different.....so I agree with you there. Sorry I did not specify that. I think any pitcher should go on rehab assignments if they are coming off extended time off due to injury. Weathers should have gone on the DL in my opinion.

[Matt700wlw]

I wish I could agree with every freakin' move the Reds make like you do, but sorry, I can't do that with a team that hasn't had a winning season since 2000 and hasn't made the playoffs since 1995.


I agree with every move they make? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's a good one.

[registerthis]

He wanted Dunn to "expand the zone" and Lopez to "make more contact and less power."

We've seen how that has worked out.

I'm still not seeing how that necessarily means narron is directly responsible for lopez's offensive falloff. We don't know what, specifically, was said to Lopez, and we don't know how what was said to him has affected him.

People see what they want to see. If people think narroon is ruining the players on this team, then no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise.

What's he done with Phillips again?

[Ltlabner]

Narron is the manager, we are fans on the message board. We don't make the decisons, he does.

Yes, but my point is many many many people on this very board posted the exact same thing Narron is being accused of here (Dunn should swing at borderline pitches to up his BA). And they would be just as wrong as he is. And there were very very very few people saying Dunn shouldn't swing at borderline pitches. In fact, chance are that some even in this very tread thought it was a good idea at the time. Until Cylone posted his chart that is.

[flyer85]

The Reds have a lot of young guys and rarely is progression ever in a straight line. The only thing I would worry about is keeping young guys off the field just so Hatty or Aurilia can play.

[registerthis]

Phillips is Narron's type of player (contact BA driven hitter), so naturally he won't tweak with his game. As for EE, give Narron some time. He's already hinted that EE could lose his job if he doesn't start playing better defensively. That type of crap can cause a young player to lose all his confidence.

If a player is succeeding, it's got nothing to do with Narron. If a player is struggling, it's got everything to do with Narron. :rolleyes:

Goodness, the hyperbole being thrown at Narron is darn near suffocating around here. You would never guess this team is leading the wild card right now. Mercy.

[reds44]

I'm still not seeing how that necessarily means narron is directly responsible for lopez's offensive falloff. We don't know what, specifically, was said to Lopez, and we don't know how what was said to him has affected him.

People see what they want to see. If people think narroon is ruining the players on this team, then no amount of evidence will convince them otherwise.

What's he done with Phillips again?
Narron wanted to change Lopez to fit his style. We needed a leadoff hitter, Narron tried to change Felipe into one. You don't try to change a player to fit your system, you change your system to fit your players or you get new players. Lopez is a middle of the order guy, not a leadoff hitter.

The fact is Narron tried to change Lopez and Dunn, and they have both been the 2 biggest dissapointments on the team this year. Coiincidence? I think not.

[registerthis]

The Reds have a lot of young guys and rarely is progression ever in a straight line. The only thing I would worry about is keeping young guys off the field just so Hatty or Aurilia can play.

Which hasn't happened, near as I can tell. Despite all of the doomsday prophesies to the contrary, E_E was entrenched at third prior to his injury, and there's nothing to indicate he won't go back there once he returns.

[flyer85]

If a player is succeeding, it's got nothing to do with Narron. If a player is struggling, it's got everything to do with Narron. :rolleyes:the funny part is, as outsiders, we really have little idea how much credit or blame Narron should get in the development of young players.

[reds44]

Which hasn't happened, near as I can tell. Despite all of the doomsday prophesies to the contrary, E_E was entrenched at third prior to his injury, and there's nothing to indicate he won't go back there once he returns.
Yes there is.

RA batting 4th every game.

I hope to God Narron doesn't give EE's PT to RA.

[registerthis]

Narron wanted to change Lopez to fit his style. We needed a leadoff hitter, Narron tried to change Felipe into one. You don't try to change a player to fit your system, you change your system to fit your players or you get new players. Lopez is a middle of the order guy, not a leadoff hitter.

So the supposition being made is that because Narron supposedly asked Lopez and Dunn to expand the strike zone, that is the reason both players have under-performed this year?

If titles were won on conjecture and supposition, this team would be blowing away the competition right now. Wowsers.


Coiincidence?

Perhaps it is. But your sources seem to be more well-informed than mine, so what do I know?

[rdiersin]

The fact is Narron tried to change Lopez and Dunn, and they have both been the 2 biggest dissapointments on the team this year. Coiincidence? I think not.

Is that a fact? The only fact is that he made a comment on it. How he carried through on that comment is entirely speculation.

[Cedric]

the funny part is, as outsiders, we really have little idea how much credit or blame Narron should get in the development of young players.

I think very little. Pitchers I think are much more volatile based on coaching though.

[registerthis]

Yes there is.

RA batting 4th every game.

I hope to God Narron doesn't give EE's PT to RA.

So RA batting out of order means E_E has lost his starting spot?

Why have I never picked up on that before?

[Ltlabner]

the funny part is, as outsiders, we really have little idea how much credit or blame Narron should get in the development of young players.

Now now flyer85. We all know that as vaunted Redszone posters it's very easy to make a causal examination of some websites and newspapers, combined with a smattering of radio conjecture and some random soundbite interviews and put together a completley plausable and factual record of what really goes on behind the sceens.......:rolleyes:

[Strikes Out Looking]

My complaints are simple:

1. Having RA in the lineup instead of either Freel or Kearns (a complaint also offered in 2005).
2. Batting RA fourth.

I believe in early January DanO and Narron awoke to a dead horse in their bed. Krivsky got his the day after being named GM. There can be no other explanation.

[reds44]

So RA batting out of order means E_E has lost his starting spot?

Why have I never picked up on that before?
How often do you see your clean-up man go to the bench?

Not alot.

[flyer85]

Yes there is.

RA batting 4th every game.
That is certainly an ominous sign. If RA really is the best hitter to bat cleanup it is hard to see how he can go to the bench on the return of EE. He may well go to the bench but there is no logic that will send him there.

[Cedric]

I might be wrong, but I thought Aurilla hit cleanup even when he was just spelling Edwin earlier?

[registerthis]

How often do you see your clean-up man go to the bench?

Not alot.

So I guess that means I can write RA off as heading to first base, if Narron decides to keep him in the lineup.

But we don't want to consider that, because slamming Narron is just so much fun.

[rdiersin]

I might be wrong, but I thought Aurilla hit cleanup even when he was just spelling Edwin earlier?

not only that, but IIRC he spent a lot of time hitting cleanup when he was platooning at 1st.

[reds44]

So I guess that means I can write RA off as heading to first base, if Narron decides to keep him in the lineup.

But we don't want to consider that, because slamming Narron is just so much fun.
If Narron puts RA in the cleanup spot at 1st base over batting Edwin 4th, it is still a stupid move.

Just not as stupid.

[registerthis]

not only that, but IIRC he spent a lot of time hitting cleanup when he was platooning at 1st.

Please stop introducing facts into this discussion, it just clouds the issue.

[registerthis]

If Narron puts RA in the cleanup spot at 1st base over batting Edwin 4th, it is still a stupid move.

Just not as stupid.

FWIW, I don't think RA OR E_E should be batting cleanup, but that's just me.

[RichRed]

Adam Dunn's 162-game averages for his career so far:

104 R, 31 2B, 40 HR, 92 RBI, 180 K, .246/.382/.521/.903

His pace for this year (161 games):

114 R, 25 2B, 51 HR, 97 RBI, 186 K, .226/.368/.541/.909

Regressing? Don't think so. Disappointing? Depends on what your expectations were. Oh, and the guy's all of 26.

But if Narron's telling Dunn to expand his zone, that's a bad idea.

[reds44]

FWIW, I don't think RA OR E_E should be batting cleanup, but that's just me.
Edwin has the most RBI per AB and the most XBH per AB. He also has a very good OBP.

He has been the best hitter on the team this year. Now I won't argue with EE not batting cleanup if it is Dunn,Kearns, or even BP.

[reds44]

Adam Dunn's 162-game averages for his career so far:

104 R, 31 2B, 40 HR, 92 RBI, 180 K, .246/.382/.521/.903

His pace for this year (161 games):

114 R, 25 2B, 51 HR, 97 RBI, 186 K, .226/.368/.541/.909

Regressing? Don't think so. Disappointing? Depends on what your expectations were. Oh, and the guy's all of 26.

But if Narron's telling Dunn to expand his zone, that's a bad idea.
He has regressed that last 2 years in ever major statistical category.

Drops, by year, from 2004 to now:
Average: .266, .247, .223
OBP: .388, .387, .364
SLG: .569, .540, .539
OPS: .957, .927, .903

[StillFunkyB]

I think everyone needs to calm down.

Rich Aurilia is the least of this teams problems.

[Redhook]

Yes there is.

RA batting 4th every game.

I hope to God Narron doesn't give EE's PT to RA.

Easy there big fella, lot of anger in this thread. Aurilia was batting 4th alot before EE got injured/conspiracied ;) . EE's job should still be there when he returns this weekend. I would imagine Aurilia will go back to playing about 4-5 games a week at different positions. Narron's made some debatable decisions, but I can't imagine him trying to platoon EE. That's unfathomable.

[reds44]

I think everyone needs to calm down.

Rich Aurilia is the least of this teams problems.
Right now he is right behind the bullpen and Milton, on Friday he could be a worse problem then both of them.

[Cedric]

Right behind the bullpen and Milton?

So in other words he matters nothing?

[registerthis]

Right now he is right behind the bullpen and Milton, on Friday he could be a worse problem then both of them.

You said bullpen and I stopped paying attention after that.

I WISH Rich Aurilia wa sthis team's biggest problem.

[Reds Nd2]

EE goes on a rehab assignment, but the veterans dont have to.

:bash:

Edwin didn't have to go either.

Article XIX - Assignment of Player Contracts

C. Disabled List - Assignment to Minor League Club
(1.) There shall be no assignment of a Player by a Major League Club to a Minor League Club while such Player is on a Major League Disabled List; provided, however, that with the Player's written consent, a copy of which shall be forwarded to the Association, and with the approval of the Commissioner, a Player on the Disabled List maybe assigned to a Minor League Club for up to a maximum of twenty days (thirty for pitchers) for each injury, or reoccurrence of an injury, for the purposes of rehabilitation, subject to the limits contained in Article XII(H).

[flyer85]

I might be wrong, but I thought Aurilla hit cleanup even when he was just spelling Edwin earlier?earlier it was against LH pitching. Now he bats cleanup whenever he is in the lineup regardless of which side the pitcher is throwing from.

[Puffy]

Yes, but my point is many many many people on this very board posted the exact same thing Narron is being accused of here (Dunn should swing at borderline pitches to up his BA). And they would be just as wrong as he is. And there were very very very few people saying Dunn shouldn't swing at borderline pitches. In fact, chance are that some even in this very tread thought it was a good idea at the time. Until Cylone posted his chart that is.

I'm not sure about that Ltlabner - I'm pretty sure there were alot of us arguing that ad nauseum with folks like BadFundamentals. Myself, M2, Steel, Cyclone, WOY, Krono, RFS, Caveat, etc.

Dunn's problem is swinging and missing pitches he correctly recognizes as pitches to swing at. His problem is not letting too many pitches go, IMO. He knows what he can and can't drive - his development hinges on making better contact when he correctly identifies those pitches.

Sure many wanted Dunn to expand his zone - but there were a bunch, a big bunch, of us who disagreed with that theory. And vocally at that.

[CTA513]

Edwin didn't have to go either.

Article XIX - Assignment of Player Contracts

C. Disabled List - Assignment to Minor League Club
(1.) There shall be no assignment of a Player by a Major League Club to a Minor League Club while such Player is on a Major League Disabled List; provided, however, that with the Player's written consent, a copy of which shall be forwarded to the Association, and with the approval of the Commissioner, a Player on the Disabled List maybe assigned to a Minor League Club for up to a maximum of twenty days (thirty for pitchers) for each injury, or reoccurrence of an injury, for the purposes of rehabilitation, subject to the limits contained in Article XII(H).


That may say they dont have to, but Im sure it wont go over to well with the manager if a first or second year player refuses a rehab assignment.

[zombie-a-go-go]

The Reds are lucky to be in a division in which almost all the teams are struggeling, including the Cardinals.

Looking at the WC standings, I think you meant "league," not "division."

Reds are playing better than most of the teams in the NL.

That having been said, this lineup sucks, and Narron should be drawn and quartered.

[Ltlabner]

Puffy 3:16




Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Panama City Beach
Posts: 11,277
Reputation: 904 Re: No Kearns, RA batting 4th, Dunn 5th

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltlabner
Yes, but my point is many many many people on this very board posted the exact same thing Narron is being accused of here (Dunn should swing at borderline pitches to up his BA). And they would be just as wrong as he is. And there were very very very few people saying Dunn shouldn't swing at borderline pitches. In fact, chance are that some even in this very tread thought it was a good idea at the time. Until Cylone posted his chart that is.


I'm not sure about that Ltlabner - I'm pretty sure there were alot of us arguing that ad nauseum with folks like BadFundamentals. Myself, M2, Steel, Cyclone, WOY, Krono, RFS, Caveat, etc.

My appologies to those you listed here. My memory isn't what it used to be. But I think my point remains that those who are crying the sky is falling today because Narron told Dunn to expand the zone are not the ones on your list saying it would be a bad idea back then.

[Redhook]

I think the whole Aurilia in the cleanup spot is being way overblown. Let me state that I do not agree with it, but it's not the worst thing in the world either. Dunn should be the cleanup hitter, but is it Narron's fault Dunn barely makes contact with runners on? Nope. So that's why Dunn isn't batting 4th. Kearns contact rate is starting to resemble Dunn's. EE would be ok, but he's been hurt and that's alot of pressure for a 23 year-old. Ross? Nope. Hatteberg? Nope. Phillips. Not bad I guess, but still not good. It's pretty obvious to me that Griffey needs to be moved to the cleanup spot to give this lineup some stability. He's a great RBI guy and probably resembles a cleanup hitter more now than a #3 hitter. With him batting 4th there are so many better options with this lineup. Batting ahead of Griffey would be Freel, Phillips, Lopez, Dunn, Hatteberg in different orders and behind Griffey you'd have EE, Kearns, Dunn, Phillips, Ross, Aurilia, Hatteberg in whatever order. I think Griffey is the best #3 and best #4 hitter on this team, but him batting 4th would help the lineup more.

Even though Dunn is slumping and somewhat irritating, he would benefit greatly batting 2nd or 3rd in this lineup every night. I think a lineup that resembles this would be great:

Freel/Phillips
Dunn/Lopez/Phillips
Lopez/Dunn
Griffey
Kearns
EE
Phillips/Hatteberg/Aurilia
Ross

To have the best available lineup either EE or Dunn will have to play first so Freel can get in there at LF or 3B, but we all know Aurilia will probably have to slip in there somewhere ;) .

[dsmith421]

What has Narron done to deserve to get drilled like he does here? He has a team that nearly everyone expected to be one of the worst in the league 1.5 games out of first place and leading the wild card, Im not sure if they will stay there all season but the guy has done a great job IMO. His line up tweaking seems to work or aleast thats what the Reds win/loss record says.

Maybe with the offensive tools we have and the surprising performance of the starting rotation we should be doing better than five over and with a Pythagorean record below .500?

[OnBaseMachine]

My appologies to those you listed here. My memory isn't what it used to be. But I think my point remains that those who are crying the sky is falling today because Narron told Dunn to expand the zone are not the ones on your list saying it would be a bad idea back then.

I've said all along that it would a horrible idea for Dunn to expand his zone. Dunn, like most hitters, is terrible when he expands his zone. Dunn's forte is being patient at the plate, waiting on his pitch and driving it, not chasing bad pitches like the Reds want him to do.

[redsfanmia]

Maybe with the offensive tools we have and the surprising performance of the starting rotation we should be doing better than five over and with a Pythagorean record below .500?

I think the "offensive tools" we have are way overrated. Face it Narron is a good manager, not great but a good manager. Plus Pythagorean records do not matter at all the real record is what counts.

[Raisor]

I'm not sure about that Ltlabner - I'm pretty sure there were alot of us arguing that ad nauseum with folks like BadFundamentals. Myself, M2, Steel, Cyclone, WOY, Krono, RFS, Caveat, etc.

.


Puffy,

You group me, Your Hero, as an "etc"?

BF was my White Whale for goodness sake!

[fisch11]

It kills me how Jerry Narron has his team in contention and there are still alot of posters bashing him as "idiotic" over his lineups.

[Ltlabner]

I posted in another thread that we could win the world seires in game 7 and people here would complain because we didn't sweep it in 4 games and score 1,046 runs.

[M2]

It kills me how Jerry Narron has his team in contention and there are still alot of posters bashing him as "idiotic" over his lineups.

All anyone's asking is that he grasp the obvious. Rich Aurilia can't hit RHPs very well and he shouldn't be the cleanup hitter.

Adam Dunn gets on a base a ton and he'd create prime RBI chances for Jr. Also, having Jr. on deck would force pitchers to throw Dunn a lot less junk because they won't want to litter the bases in front of Jr.

If Narron did those two simple things, the Reds would score more.

[BRM]

It kills me how Jerry Narron has his team in contention and there are still alot of posters bashing him as "idiotic" over his lineups.

I think the disconnect here is the "anti-Narron" crowd feels the team is contending in spite of Jerry Narron, not because of him.

[TeamBoone]

Why does Narron tweak the lineup EVERY night! Dunn has 2 hits in the 2 spot, why move him?

Why take Kearns out of the lineup to keep RA in? It makes no sense.

Totally agreed... and Kearns did well last night as well.

Seems like every time a player might get in a groove, he either sits him or changes his slot in the order.

Freel was swinging a hot bat and he sat him.

The only consistent thing in the batting order is Rich Aurilia.... that's pretty much it.

This is probably my biggest beef about JN.

[TeamBoone]

It kills me how Jerry Narron has his team in contention and there are still alot of posters bashing him as "idiotic" over his lineups.

Just think how much better they might be if he wasn't so sporadic (and sometimes seemingly senseless) with his lineups.

[Reds Nd2]

That may say they dont have to, but Im sure it wont go over to well with the manager if a first or second year player refuses a rehab assignment.

It would depend on the player I think.

[fisch11]

I liked his move last night with Dunn in the 2 hole. I don't think that he really believes that Rich is a cleanup hitter, even though he had a cleanup type of year in San Fransisco. I just think that he wants to split up the lefties in Jr. and Dunn, and if he doesn't want to push Dunn beyond the 5 hole than Rich makes sense at cleanup. Rich doesn't show the cleanup style numbers, but I would rather have his tough at bats @ 4 than Kearns' strikeouts there instead. It makes sense to me I guess.

[StillFunkyB]

I think the whole Aurilia in the cleanup spot is being way overblown. Let me state that I do not agree with it, but it's not the worst thing in the world either. Dunn should be the cleanup hitter, but is it Narron's fault Dunn barely makes contact with runners on? Nope. So that's why Dunn isn't batting 4th. Kearns contact rate is starting to resemble Dunn's. EE would be ok, but he's been hurt and that's alot of pressure for a 23 year-old. Ross? Nope. Hatteberg? Nope. Phillips. Not bad I guess, but still not good. It's pretty obvious to me that Griffey needs to be moved to the cleanup spot to give this lineup some stability. He's a great RBI guy and probably resembles a cleanup hitter more now than a #3 hitter. With him batting 4th there are so many better options with this lineup. Batting ahead of Griffey would be Freel, Phillips, Lopez, Dunn, Hatteberg in different orders and behind Griffey you'd have EE, Kearns, Dunn, Phillips, Ross, Aurilia, Hatteberg in whatever order. I think Griffey is the best #3 and best #4 hitter on this team, but him batting 4th would help the lineup more.

Even though Dunn is slumping and somewhat irritating, he would benefit greatly batting 2nd or 3rd in this lineup every night. I think a lineup that resembles this would be great:

Freel/Phillips
Dunn/Lopez/Phillips
Lopez/Dunn
Griffey
Kearns
EE
Phillips/Hatteberg/Aurilia
Ross

To have the best available lineup either EE or Dunn will have to play first so Freel can get in there at LF or 3B, but we all know Aurilia will probably have to slip in there somewhere ;) .

I was thinking along the same lines:

Freel/Phillips
Lopez
Dunn
Griff
Ears
EE
Hatte/RA
Ross/Larue/Stache

[fisch11]

I definitely think putting either Dunn/Hatteberg at the 3 hole with their OBP% and Jr. at cleanup would please alot of folks.

[reds44]

Here is a post I made on ORG the few days back, and IMO it explains who should bat 4th.

So with Edwin going on rehab, it means he will probably be back this weekend. I know it probably seems as if I am Edwin obsessed, but the guy means alot to out offense. Lets check out our numbers since he went on the DL (Saturday June 10th before the Cubs game).

Runs scored by game-
2
3
5
4
3
4
6
1
4
2
6
2
3
0
4

15 games, 49 runs
3.2 RPG
Our record in that strech is 5-10

Now we all know the Reds haven't had a consistent 4 hitter all year. We have tried Dunn, Kearns, Edwin, and we as we all know, Rich.

Now lets break down that 4 some's numbers.
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/4804/11113st.png
Out of the group Edwin has the best BA, tied for the best OBP, and is second in slugging behind Dunn.

Now ovbiously the AB's aren't even, but I'm gonna break it down.

AB per HR:
Kearns- 21.1
Dunn- 10.9
Edwin-30.8
Rich-19.4

AB per RBI:
Kearns- 6.3
Dunn- 5.8
Edwin- 5.1
Rich-6.0

Now ovbiously Edwin's HR totals are on the low side, but does that really matter since he drives in so many runs as it is?

AB per Double:
Kearns-15.2
Dunn-21.8
Edwin- 9.7
Rich-14.5

Edwin is the only of the group with a triple, so here is the Extra Base Hits stats.

AB per XBH
Kearns- 8.8
Dunn- 7.2
Edwin- 7.1
RA- 8.3

After compaling all those stats, it is clear that the only 2 logical choices are Dunn or Edwin. They are 1/2 in most every major stastical category. So then my question is what is the job of a "Clean-up hitter" to clean up the runners off the bases.

Lets look at Dunn and Edwin's numbers with men on base.

Dunn- .181/.358/.834
Edwin- .339/.449/1.023

So after compaling all the stats, it seems pretty clear to me, that Edwin belongs in the clean up spot. Who knows with Narron though.

[flynn78]

Freel flies out.
FeLo singles

[flynn78]

FeLo picked off

[flynn78]

JR pops to the catcher

[flynn78]

Is this a game thread? Is there anyone out there?

[flynn78]

No game thread! I could start one, but who will be there? This thread on ORG stuff stinks:thumbdown

[fisch11]

It was like this last night too.

[redsfanmia]

No game thread! I could start one, but who will be there? This thread on ORG stuff stinks:thumbdown
I agree:beerme:

[flynn78]

redsfanmia you are correct. Great minds think alike.

[fisch11]

Gotta love LaRue's arm though!

[fisch11]

Jeez, Rich in that cleanup spot. (Sarcasm)
Like I said, Jerry knows what he is doing. Everybody freaked out in a game earlier this year when Hatty and Rich batted 3,4....and what do they do? Drove in 7 RBI's combined. Keep it up Jerry, and Rich.

[fisch11]

Pour it on!!! 3 homers in this inning baby!

[fisch11]

LaRue is feeling that bat the Matt Stairs gave him.

[red-in-la]

Seems to me there were about 1,347,286 posts on Redszone this year urging Dunn to just swing at a few more pitches "just outside the zone" and he'd have wonderfull sucess as a hitter. I guess Narron isn't the only one out to wreck the youth movement eh?

By the way, there weren't too many people saying this would be a bad idea. I know Cyclone proved it with his super-cool chart. I remember a few others but am getting too old to remember the names. The point is, most humans in Cincy wanted Dunn to do the exact same thing you are now complaining about.

You have to figure that Narron is smarter than any of us.......he is getting PAID to make these decisions.

[fisch11]

LaRue smokes Reggie at 2nd. Strike out/thrown out DP to end the inning. LaRue has gunned down 2 runners tonight, think Buddy Bell is going to send anymore?

[TeamBoone]

Is this a game thread? Is there anyone out there?

I was looking for a game thread too... by the title, I figured it was. This is pretty disappointing.

[Raisor]

You have to figure that Narron is smarter than any of us.......he is getting PAID to make these decisions.


Does that mean that there's not a single pro-coach thats bad at his job? They're all being paid afterall.

[Nugget]

I'd say this game thread ain't as bad as the one in ORG - Still having read a couple of pages of game thread I still don't know the score but at least here I know LaRue threw out a runner at 2B to get a DP.

[red-in-la]

Does that mean that there's not a single pro-coach thats bad at his job? They're all being paid afterall.

No...no...no....I didn't mean that at all. I meant that he is smart enough to get somebody to pay him for the kind of knowledge given away on Redszone nightly.

I have always been in the ilk that very FEW manager really earn (a.k.a. make a difference for the good) their money.....but I also admit that nobody ever offered me 6 figures to talk about baseball either.

I believe that more than half the ML managers do manage to hinder their teams.

[Redhook]

So after compaling all the stats, it seems pretty clear to me, that Edwin belongs in the clean up spot. Who knows with Narron though.

I agree with you IF Griffey stays in the 3 spot. I still think Griffey batting cleanup would be best for the lineup. I think it would take pressure off of everyone else and it would put 3 good OBP guys ahead of him (Freel, Phillips, Lopez, Hatteberg, or Dunn....3 of the 5).

[redsmetz]

Sheesh, what on earth was Jerry Narron thinking putting Rich Aurilia at the #4 slot - 2 for 4 with 2 runs scored, 2 RBI's - just terrible.;)

[Redhook]

Sheesh, what on earth was Jerry Narron thinking putting Rich Aurilia at the #4 slot - 2 for 4 with 2 runs scored, 2 RBI's - just terrible.;)

Remember a few weeks ago on June 7th when everyone was going crazy before the game about Aurilia batting 4th, me included :) ? He then went out and was 4 for 5 with 5 RBI's against the Cardinals. What's that prove? We Redzoners need to complain more about him batting 4th :evil: . I like Aurilia. Great defense. Very versatile. Good hitter. I still don't think he's a cleanup hitter, *cough, JR., cough*, but I don't mind him in the lineup at all.

[indyred]

Went to the game tonight. Nice win and very cool bobblehead of Larkin. Not sure if it's been brought up, but Reds played a pretty funny bit on Felo. He goes running out to his spot a little early during introductions and rest of team sat in the dugout laughing, while Lopez was out in field for couple minutes solo. Only my 2nd game in person this year, but the crowd did the wave. Is this common a GABP.....I thought that was a 80's thing.....I got there when gates opened for BP.....You only can catch a little bit of Reds, but all of the visiting team bp. Man KC had few guys jacking them deep. Upper deck shots in left.....Ball was flying out of there....Not sure how long he has been REDS PA guy, but he does a great job. Also, some little kid did a promotion before the game and had Hatteberg as his player to hit HR and if he did he gets free pizza for a year. He got paid tonight......

[TeamBoone]

Yeah, they do the wave... in a lot of ballparks, not just the GAB. I guess it's been revived. I often see it on TV at away games too as it comes around behind the batter.

[M2]

Jeez, Rich in that cleanup spot. (Sarcasm)
Like I said, Jerry knows what he is doing. Everybody freaked out in a game earlier this year when Hatty and Rich batted 3,4....and what do they do? Drove in 7 RBI's combined. Keep it up Jerry, and Rich.

Would you put Tony Womack in the cleanup spot? Because up against RHPs Aurilia's hitting like he's Tony Womack. Will he occassionally do something right there? Sure. Anyone would, including Tony Womack. Doesn't make it any less of an idiotic idea to put him there.

[BRM]

Would you put Tony Womack in the cleanup spot? Because up against RHPs Aurilia's hitting like he's Tony Womack. Will he occassionally do something right there? Sure. Anyone would, including Tony Womack. Doesn't make it any less of an idiotic idea to put him there.

One good game certainly doesn't make up for his .237/.267/.377 line against RHPs.

[M2]

One good game certainly doesn't make up for his .237/.267/.377 line against RHPs.

Exactly. Might as well bat LaRue, Valentin or McCracken cleanup against RHPs.

[registerthis]

Exactly. Might as well bat LaRue, Valentin or McCracken cleanup against RHPs.

Nope, doesn't make much sense at all.

But it worked last night, so I'll refrain from complaining for at least another day. :)