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Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 10:27 PM
You probably aren't even going to win the game.

I would have rather seen the bullpen give up 8 runs that inning even if it was still 1-0 us, then leave Aaron out there for 135 pitches.

Then Narron's an idiot for bringing in the wrong pitchers.



The guy can't win :D

captainmorgan07
07-08-2006, 10:27 PM
come on kearns get the bat off ur shoulder

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:27 PM
Then Narron's an idiot for bringing in the wrong pitchers.



The guy can't win :D
If he would have brought the pen in and it got killed, I wouldn't have said a word.

captainmorgan07
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
Then Narron's an idiot for bringing in the wrong pitchers.



The guy can't win :D
exactly right complain if they leave him out there complain if the bullpen gives up runs what do they want

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
swing the bat.

Reds Fanatic
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
Kearns strikes out looking. 1 out.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
Great effort

:bang:

captainmorgan07
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
kearns musta had a bat optional at bat

oneupper
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
No matter who the pitcher is, Narron won't take a starter out until he's dug the team into an almost impossible hole.

The "Bullpen sucks"' excuse is getting very old.

Caveat Emperor
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
How little confidence does Jerry Narron have in his bullpen that he sends Harang out for 135 pitches two days before the All Star break?

I mean -- talk about a vote of ZERO confidence.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 10:28 PM
The "Bullpen sucks"' excuse is getting very old.

It's not an excuse :D

flyer85
07-08-2006, 10:29 PM
No matter who the pitcher is, Narron won't take a starter out until he's dug the team into an almost impossible hole.

The "Bullpen sucks"' excuse is getting very old.and if one of Arroyo or Harang goes to the DL the season is over.

Reds Fanatic
07-08-2006, 10:29 PM
Hatteberg flies out to center. 2 outs.

captainmorgan07
07-08-2006, 10:30 PM
hatteberg's 2 outs would have been homers at gabp

WMR
07-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Dang, Aaron Harang - 2nd most pitches in a game in MLB this season

I'm guessing Livan Hernandez is 1st?

Reds Fanatic
07-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Lopez singles to center.

Chip R
07-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Francouer strikes out swinging. 133 pitches for Harang. A ridiculous pitch count. Apparently Narron took the Dusty Baker course on how to handle starting pitchers.

That is what you get when you have a lousy bullpen. After Harang walked McCann you could have put in a fresh arm to pitch to Francour. But, since no one can be trusted to get an out in that bullpen, Narron stays with Harang. I cannot blame him. I am sure he does not want Arroyo and Harang to throw 120 pitches every time out but that gives him the best chance to win. It makes the manager's decision a lot easier when you have a decent bullpen.

flyer85
07-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Harang just put up the highest pitch count of his career and the 2nd highest in the majors this year.

Heath
07-08-2006, 10:30 PM
Ok, tying run on deck.

Heath
07-08-2006, 10:31 PM
For a guy who is a career minor leaguer - Ray's not bad.

oneupper
07-08-2006, 10:31 PM
The bullpen is not going to get better if they never pitch.

Kc61
07-08-2006, 10:32 PM
The bullpen is not going to get better if they never pitch.

This bullpen is at its best when it doesn't pitch.

Heath
07-08-2006, 10:32 PM
Phillips realizing Smoltz isn't pitching...

TheBurn
07-08-2006, 10:33 PM
That's it...

Heath
07-08-2006, 10:33 PM
Ballgame.

IslandRed
07-08-2006, 10:33 PM
Well, let's remember something here on Harang -- 135 pitches is high, but not completely ridiculous for a veteran. Dusty got killed because he was leaving kids out there that long. For someone of Harang's age and experience, spiking to 130+ isn't undue pitcher abuse as long as he's still using good mechanics AND it's an aberration rather than a pattern.

Reds Fanatic
07-08-2006, 10:33 PM
Phillips strikes out. Reds lose 4-1.

captainmorgan07
07-08-2006, 10:33 PM
bp dind't have his best nite at the plate tonite

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 10:34 PM
The Arroyo show tomorrow.

Have to like their chances.

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:35 PM
:clap:

Ok who wants Freel or Rich playing over Edwin tomorrow? Anybody? That 0-4 with 3 Ks really helped us tonight.

Maybe we will leave Arroyo out there for 140 pitches.

The fact that Narron got an extension is a joke.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 10:36 PM
The fact that Narron got an extension is a joke.

Done to soon, I think.

Not necessarily opposed to extending him, but I would have waited to see how this season panned out first

GAC
07-08-2006, 10:37 PM
The Arroyo show tomorrow.

Have to like their chances.

"their" being Reds or ATL? ;)

As M2 already pointed out. Our defense did us in tonight, for the most part.

Harang pitched very good. He made a pitch mistake on the HR; but overall, he did very well.

We took ourselves mentally out of this game.

Reds Fanatic
07-08-2006, 10:37 PM
Well, let's remember something here on Harang -- 135 pitches is high, but not completely ridiculous for a veteran. Dusty got killed because he was leaving kids out there that long. For someone of Harang's age and experience, spiking to 130+ isn't undue pitcher abuse as long as he's still using good mechanics AND it's an aberration rather than a pattern.
Harang has been throwing a lot of pitches all year. Eventually it catches up to you. He has now thrown over 110 pitches in 10 of 19 starts. In his last 5 starts he has thrown 133, 99, 114, 117 and 119 pitches.

Kc61
07-08-2006, 10:38 PM
In the next couple of years Narron should get a better bullpen. At that point we'll see how he uses it.

Right now, he sticks with his starters too long. Perhaps with a better pen he will change that tendency.

What bothers me is that some of these pitchers clearly are less effective late in games. Milton and, of late, Harang in particular. If these guys have trouble late in games, you need to make a move before the trouble hits, not after.

But pen is so bad, hard to blame Narron.

Matt700wlw
07-08-2006, 10:39 PM
In other news, Harang leads baseball with 4 complete games.

Also the bullpen gave up 0 runs tonight :D

Caveat Emperor
07-08-2006, 10:40 PM
:clap:

Ok who wants Freel or Rich playing over Edwin tomorrow? Anybody? That 0-4 with 3 Ks really helped us tonight.

Maybe we will leave Arroyo out there for 140 pitches.

The fact that Narron got an extension is a joke.

You saw what John Smoltz did to Brandon Phillips -- he's not one the greatest pitchers of this generation just because he keeps showing up for work everyday. I highly doubt Edwin Encarnacion would've made much of a difference.

I dig you've got a thing for Eddie and that's cool, but seriously -- read up on "causation" or something. Its not like Babe Ruth went on the DL a month ago.

oneupper
07-08-2006, 10:42 PM
Harang can throw 150 pitches in Game 7 of the WS, if Narron wants.

In the middle of the season, down by 2 or 3 runs and tiring...what for?

Narron has been pushing Harang and Arroyo hard for the last month...and guess what...REDS have lost their last three starts (at least...haven't looked further back).

Red in Chicago
07-08-2006, 10:42 PM
Its not like Babe Ruth went on the DL a month ago.

true dat...

reds44
07-08-2006, 10:43 PM
You saw what John Smoltz did to Brandon Phillips -- he's not one the greatest pitchers of this generation just because he keeps showing up for work everyday. I highly doubt Edwin Encarnacion would've made much of a difference.

I dig you've got a thing for Eddie and that's cool, but seriously -- read up on "causation" or something. Its not like Babe Ruth went on the DL a month ago.
Couldn't have done any worse the 0-4 with 3 ks.

Lets see if jerry sticks Rich at 3rd at 3rd.

IslandRed
07-08-2006, 10:45 PM
Harang has been throwing a lot of pitches all year. Eventually it catches up to you. He has now thrown over 110 pitches in 10 of 19 starts. In his last 5 starts he has thrown 133, 99, 114, 117 and 119 pitches.

But 110-120 is not an abnormal or unhealthy pitch count for a veteran; it's what rotation horses are generally expected to do. Until today, Harang had a max of 121. I wouldn't have sent him back out there myself because I'm an err-on-the-side-of-caution type, but from what I've read at BP and other places, it's not really that big a risk for a frontline starter in his prime to have a spike every great now and then. Now, if Narron routinely starts leaving him out there for 125+, we have an issue.

WVRedsFan
07-08-2006, 10:58 PM
The Arroyo show tomorrow.

Have to like their chances.

Why?

I like their chances tonight. We should have won.

Sure ain't the offense, huh?

Maybe Narron has the whole team out of sync. Since obtaining Castro, he plays every other day with either EdE or Lopez sitting. Must be true love.

Freel should play every third game. Tonight, he looked awful. In fact, almost little league-like.

Allowing Aaron Harang to throw that many pitches was cruel and unusual punishment. Yes, we needed a closer, but if your offense sputters in a game (and against a good pitcher like Smoltz, that will happen), you need dependable middle relief. We don't have it, but the decision to leave a tiring Harang in was just as lethal. What's the difference? I don't expect Genius Gerry to know (sorry, Narron doesn't deserve this much flak, but I'm upset with moves before this game and especially the new found confidence in Castro as the expense of the future).

I still stand by my prediction of one over .500 at the break.

reds44
07-08-2006, 11:03 PM
Another bad move by Narron.

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/spring/


ATLANTA -- For those (like me) wondering why Aaron Harang went back out there for the eighth when he already was in the neighborhood of 120 pitches and his next start would be on normal rest, here's the answer:

Before the inning, Jerry Narron and Tom Hume conferred and decided it'd be all right to flip-flop their starters coming out of the break. So, with 135 pitches under his belt tonight, Harang will get an extra day.

Eric Milton will start Thursday against the Rockies, followed by Harang, Arroyo and Ramirez.


Arroyo and Harang shouldn't start back to back.

Big Klu
07-08-2006, 11:14 PM
Harang got his fourth complete game tonight, making him the first Red to pitch 4 CG's in a season since Tim Belcher in 1993.

The last Red with more than 4 CG's in a season was Greg Swindell, with 5 in 1992.

Tony Cloninger
07-08-2006, 11:15 PM
Is anything a good move in your eyes?

The justify the extra pitches by moving the guy back a day for a start....and that is still not good enough.

If Freel goes 2-4 or better......you still would not want him out there.

If EE starts the next 10-15 games in a row......you will still hate the fact that he had to sit at any time.

As far as castro goes.....jerry was already quoted as saying there is no platoon....just a day off for Lopez. Of course....this is JN talking..... the idiot conspirator to all those players who are below 30 years of age.

reds44
07-08-2006, 11:17 PM
Is anything a good move in your eyes?

The justify the extra pitches by moving the guy back a day for a start....and that is still not good enough.

If Freel goes 2-4 or better......you still would not want him out there.

If EE starts the next 10-15 games in a row......you will still hate the fact that he had to sit at any time.

As far as castro goes.....jerry was already quoted as saying there is no platoon....just a day off for Lopez. Of course....this is JN talking..... the idiot conspirator to all those players who are below 30 years of age.
It doesn't justify more pitches. An extra day has nothing to do with today. Arroyo and Harang shouldn't pitch back to back.

Edwin has sat 2 days in a row after missing a month, that shouldn't happen. Freel went 0-4 with 3 Ks today, not 2-4.

I never said a word about Castro.

CTA513
07-08-2006, 11:28 PM
Of course....this is JN talking..... the idiot conspirator to all those players who are below 30 years of age.


:thumbup:

Tony Cloninger
07-08-2006, 11:36 PM
I never said Freel went 2-4....i said if he had gone 2-4 or even better....it would still not have made a difference to you.

I hope EE starts as many games straight as possible......but i see the only way to make you happy was if he started a Cal Ripken every inning-every game streak. IMO....Freel should play every now and then.....at least 1-2 starts a week.... either at 3B, CF or even 2B. RA should stick to 1B.
The errors EE makes do not bother you...... but they sure seemto bother Jerry a lot. I guess he figures...this pitching is bad enough...the other team does not need any help.

I was responding to the Castro quote from the prior post by WV Reds fan.

Narron stinks when it comes (and i guess so does Hume) to seeing that a pitcher is done. Especially with Mays and Milton....he should have the shortest leash available...bad bullpen or not.
I can see why he pushes Harang and Arroyo more......so as long as another previous poster said...it does not become a pattern.


I go to a Bengals board.....with people as smart about the inside and outs...along with numbers smart and history smart...as many of the people here.

Guess what i found out......out of the 7-8 regulars there.....about 2-3 still DO NOT like what Marvin lewis has done in the draft..... or how he handles the defense. Here we have an org. that is about or was about as putrid as any could be..... and they were not even happy with 8-8 in 2003, after a 2-14 season the prior year.
They felt it should have been the playoffs from year 1.

They think the team is better than it is sometimes. They blame the HC for it all. Never mind he turned a franchise that embraced losing and had an owner/GM that made DO look like Bob Howsman..... they still think he could do better ...and that he should have already developed a BAL type defense by 2004. You can only imagine what they are saying now about the Henry, Rucker...and all the rest of the Dirty Dozen...and how it is all on him.

Do i think Narron should have recieved an extension....no....not yet.
Same mistake they pulled when they just gave Miley another year.....beacuse he looked good for a short time.
But i also see people just do not like the guy...no matter what......and clearly things have not been going well, and some of his decisions have not helped his cause.
I just do not know who would make people happy here.....as manager.
Beacuse every manager has a quirk or 2...that defies logic to all of us.

KronoRed
07-08-2006, 11:42 PM
I blame this loss on the lack of EE


;)

Marc D
07-08-2006, 11:56 PM
I blame it on a fundamentally terrible team. These guys have been losing so long its now in their collective DNA.

If the starters pitch well we don't hit, if they hit the pitching blows, if the starters and the offense are on the pen implodes, if its a close game we start kicking the ball around, it just never ends.

I literally laughed out loud when I read the thing about what a gutty team this was the other day. These guys can't stand prosperity. Just look at the Cardinals, they have literally been trying to give the NL central lead away for the better part of two months now and we refuse to go take it. Now the cards are on a mini streak of .500 ball and open a 3 game lead back up.

I know this isn't the popular thing to say, its all supposed to be the bullpens fault but I have zero doubt we'd still be finding a way to lose with a decent pen. All May before the pen exploded and we were getting QS after QS from the entire staff, not just the "big 3", the offense went in the tank something fierce. If the pen were somehow fixed I promise you another facet of the team would jump up and fall apart.

The collective apathy and familiarity with losing is a big part of the reason I've been in favor of a big rebuild from Day 1. Nothing I've seen so far this year has changed my mind.

OnBaseMachine
07-08-2006, 11:57 PM
As I said the day it happened, extending Narron was a horrible move, and especially for a younger guy like EE.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 12:00 AM
At this point in the season Harang should never see the 8th inning. He should be on a strict 100 pitch count. He comes totally unseamed after that point.

KronoRed
07-09-2006, 12:01 AM
Arroyo and Harang shouldn't start back to back.
Yes they should, give your best pitchers more starts.

But.

Putting both behind Milton is pretty foolish :help:

RedsBaron
07-09-2006, 12:06 AM
A couple of extra days of rest doesn't justify subjecting Harang to a high-stress 135 pitch outing. Probably nothing is more potentially damaging to a starting pitcher than a high pitch count.

Tony Cloninger
07-09-2006, 12:19 AM
I think jerry is not handling, at times, the pressure of actually being in a pennant race as a manager. This is something that he has not gone through in the majors.

He has EE on a shorter leash than other players. He will put Ray Oyler out there if it meant winning games with better defense.

If this team continues to be in any race.....we will see how he continues to react.

I can easily see this team....just like MD pointed out....with it's lack of fundamentals...or the dreaded "intangibles" lable....tanking, and then coming back when they are out of it to play better.

Those late 80's team's were real good at that.

VR
07-09-2006, 12:56 AM
At this point in the season Harang should never see the 8th inning. He should be on a strict 100 pitch count. He comes totally unseamed after that point.

sub .650 ops against Harang after 100 pitches this year, he fairs quite well.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 12:58 AM
sub .650 ops against Harang after 100 pitches this year, he fairs quite well.

In my post, I said "at this point in the season." He's been ridden very hard this season. It's hurt him the last several starts. Jerry needs to back off on him for a bit...he'll need him in August and September.

M2
07-09-2006, 01:04 AM
Or Harang's outfielders could just snag catchable balls, just sayin'. He throws a shutout through 8 today if Jr. and Dunn make those two plays at the wall.

Falls City Beer
07-09-2006, 01:08 AM
Or Harang's outfielders could just snag catchable balls, just sayin'. He throws a shutout through 8 today if Jr. and Dunn make those two plays at the wall.

Maybe so. But I think you'd agree that Jerry's really been riding Aaron too hard this year. He needs to chill on him a bit, for a while.

I don't care that the bullpen's been sucking; no need to turn Harang into a rag-arm to save his manager's butt.

M2
07-09-2006, 01:08 AM
Maybe so. But I think you'd agree that Jerry's really been riding Aaron too hard this year. He needs to chill on him a bit, for a while.

I don't care that the bullpen's been sucking; no need to turn Harang into a rag-arm to save his manager's butt.

Totally agreed on that part.

WVRedsFan
07-09-2006, 01:42 AM
Harang got his fourth complete game tonight, making him the first Red to pitch 4 CG's in a season since Tim Belcher in 1993.

The last Red with more than 4 CG's in a season was Greg Swindell, with 5 in 1992.

Just curious...when did they start considering an 8-inning stint in the enemy's park a complete game? I always thought 9 was a complete game and if you couldn't do nine because you were losing, you didn't get the statistic.

Why should a pitcher get credit for a complete game when a game is 9 innings and he only pitches 8?

Caveat Emperor
07-09-2006, 01:51 AM
Just curious...when did they start considering an 8-inning stint in the enemy's park a complete game? I always thought 9 was a complete game and if you couldn't do nine because you were losing, you didn't get the statistic.

Why should a pitcher get credit for a complete game when a game is 9 innings and he only pitches 8?

He pitched until the game was completed. No other pitcher took the mound for his side.

They also give CGs for rain-shortened games as well.

Johnny Vander m
07-09-2006, 02:04 AM
:thumbup: :thumbup:
:clap:

Ok who wants Freel or Rich playing over Edwin tomorrow? Anybody? That 0-4 with 3 Ks really helped us tonight.

Maybe we will leave Arroyo out there for 140 pitches.

The fact that Narron got an extension is a joke.


:thumbup: Me for one! on the question, hey you want Dave on the extension question?

Patrick Bateman
07-09-2006, 02:17 AM
Why should a pitcher get credit for a complete game when a game is 9 innings and he only pitches 8?

Because he pitched a complete game. It's that simple.

MWM
07-09-2006, 02:20 AM
Have any of you guys seen the crop of major league managers out there these days? Narron isn't much different than the rest of them as far as I can tell. I don't think getting rid of Narron would make much difference at all as his replacement would most likely be just like him.

GAC
07-09-2006, 07:52 AM
A couple of extra days of rest doesn't justify subjecting Harang to a high-stress 135 pitch outing. Probably nothing is more potentially damaging to a starting pitcher than a high pitch count.

I think what Narron is doing recently with his starters shows the guy has zero confidence in any guy in this BP. And I can't really fault him either.

Every time one of them walks in they should play Skynryd's "That Smell" over the sound system. ;)

But that doesn't justify possibly killing the arms of your starters. You've now just compounded the problem.

I'd go back to utilizing my starters as normal, and when it's time for the BP, then throw them out there.

If they continue to get killed, then c'est la vie, it's up to the FO to address/fix it.

I'd sacrifice the arms of any of the guys on this BP over starters such as Harang and/or Arroyo.

And complete games, while nice, are not a must with me anymore IF you have a capable BP/closer. Again - we don't.

RedsBaron
07-09-2006, 08:13 AM
Maybe so. But I think you'd agree that Jerry's really been riding Aaron too hard this year. He needs to chill on him a bit, for a while.

I don't care that the bullpen's been sucking; no need to turn Harang into a rag-arm to save his manager's butt.
I agree. I would like for Harang to be effective this September, and in 2007 as well.

RedsBaron
07-09-2006, 08:14 AM
Have any of you guys seen the crop of major league managers out there these days? Narron isn't much different than the rest of them as far as I can tell. I don't think getting rid of Narron would make much difference at all as his replacement would most likely be just like him.
Narron certainly seems to be as good as about any other manager the Reds have had in the last decade or so, though that is not exactly praise of the highest order.

VR
07-09-2006, 12:24 PM
Maybe so. But I think you'd agree that Jerry's really been riding Aaron too hard this year. He needs to chill on him a bit, for a while.

I don't care that the bullpen's been sucking; no need to turn Harang into a rag-arm to save his manager's butt.

I don't agree at all that he should have been sent back out there last night. I think Aaron is a bit different than the rest of our starters in the fact that his delivery is so smooth and effortless. You rarely see him appear to be 'worn out' and having to exert himself more due to being wiped out.

When Claussen reaches his 100 pitches in the top of the 5th we all know because he starts shortening his stride and using all arm.

Big Klu
07-09-2006, 01:36 PM
Just curious...when did they start considering an 8-inning stint in the enemy's park a complete game? I always thought 9 was a complete game and if you couldn't do nine because you were losing, you didn't get the statistic.

Why should a pitcher get credit for a complete game when a game is 9 innings and he only pitches 8?

As Caveat Emperor and Austin Kearns said, if you are the only player to pitch for your team in an official game, then you get credited with a CG.