Freel Set to Have MRI on Shoulder

[IrishDavidKY]

This could be a bad sign! Freel is a spark plug for this team. I hope it's nothing serious, but anytime you mention MRI it's a reason for concern.

LINK to Story (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060709&content_id=1549272&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)

[reds44]

He can't play everyday. This is just another example of it.


That being said I hope he is ok. If he goes on the DL does Deno or Olmedo come up?


The next day it hurt bad to rotate my arm," said Freel, who started in center field for Ken Griffey Jr. on Sunday. "Then, the next day it felt really good. Then yesterday, it was pretty sore. Today was worse than yesterday."
Why did he play 3 days in a row if he had a hurt shoulder?

[jesusfan]

Well... I guess it helps when you have solid replacements like Aurilia, Castro, and Encarnacion...

[reds44]

Well... I guess it helps when you have solid replacements like Aurilia, Castro, and Encarnacion...
Freel is a replacement, not Edwin.


/bitter

[goreds2]

Freel is a replacement, not Edwin.


/bitter

This is CRAZY. Edwin NEEDS TO PLAY EVERY DAY!

I do hope Freel is alright.

[reds44]

This is CRAZY. Edwin NEEDS TO PLAY EVERY DAY!

I do hope Freel is alright.
Amen brother. You are preaching to the choir.

[Ltlabner]

Why did he play 3 days in a row if he had a hurt shoulder?

Arrogent macho pride. This has become all to common of occurance on this team. I don't think they should fire up the MRI machine at the first sniffle, but how many guys have we heard of in the past two years alone that were playing hurt and only made it worse for themselves and the team?

[Red in Chicago]

[QUOTE=reds44]He can't play everyday. This is just another example of it./QUOTE]

a hurt shoulder is "another" example of how he can't play everyday? that's a bit harsh, don't you think...not everyone can be cal ripken...

[Spitball]

He can't play everyday. This is just another example of it.

Freel can't play everyday because he plays with high energy and gives 110%. He gets hurt because he dives, runs into walls, and plays without concern for his personal safety. I'll take that over the guy that won't get his uniform dirty but can play 160 games a year.

[reds44]

Freel can't play everyday because he plays with high energy and gives 110%. He gets hurt because he dives, runs into walls, and plays without concern for his personal safety. I'll take that over the guy that won't get his uniform dirty but can play 160 games a year.


I never said him playing like he does is a bad thing. He just can't play everyday.

[Spitball]

I never said him playing like he does is a bad thing. He just can't play everyday.

Then why mention it?

[reds44]

Then why mention it?
I said he can't play everyday. Alot of people on this board want him playing everyday.

Go back to when he played everyday when Junior was out and look how his numbers bombed.

He is probably the best utility player in the game, and is one of the better assests to our team.

[Johnny Vander m]

Freel can't play everyday because he plays with high energy and gives 110%. He gets hurt because he dives, runs into walls, and plays without concern for his personal safety. I'll take that over the guy that won't get his uniform dirty but can play 160 games a year.


Amen brother.:beerme: EE, take note of that.

[reds44]

Amen brother.:beerme: EE, take note of that.
:confused:

What does Edwin have to do with this?

[Redeye fly]

Arrogent macho pride. This has become all to common of occurance on this team. I don't think they should fire up the MRI machine at the first sniffle, but how many guys have we heard of in the past two years alone that were playing hurt and only made it worse for themselves and the team?
I think it's more competitiveness and having no desire to sit on the bench or at home doing nothing when the rest of your teammates are out there playing than it is "arrogant macho pride". Even though most of my attention is on the Reds, like everyone else here, I don't think it's isolated to this team either. I can't think of too many occurrences, if any, where an athlete on any team in any sport realized or suspected they were hurt and said "I'd better shurt it down for a while." I would say probably 99.99999% of any athletes who have any competitive fire at all try to play through injuries up to the point where they know they can't go anymore, or many times up until the point where the manager/coach/gm says "no more".

[jimbo]

Freel can't play everyday because he plays with high energy and gives 110%. He gets hurt because he dives, runs into walls, and plays without concern for his personal safety. I'll take that over the guy that won't get his uniform dirty but can play 160 games a year.

You have to find a happy medium somewhere in between. Freel can play wrecklessly at times diving for balls he has no chance of getting to. It may look good on the highlights, but he also has a responsibility to take care of himself.

[Johnny Vander m]

:confused:

What does Edwin have to do with this?


Simple, if EE would hustle one half as much as Freel, he might be a better player.

OBTW, are you the same person a couple years ago obsessed with Mato?

[reds44]

Simple, if EE would hustle one half as much as Freel, he might be a better player.

OBTW, are you the same person a couple years ago obsessed with Mato?
Who is Mato?


Do you even realize Edwin is a 23 year old in his 1st full year? He isn't even close to his prime, and is already OPSing better Freel.

I don't see how you would rather have Freel.. A 30 year old utility player who has never played everyday in the majors in his life, compared to a 23 year old with twice the talent, who is already putting up better stats in many areas doesn't make any sense.

[jimbo]

I don't see how you would rather have Freel.. A 30 year old utility player who has never played everyday in the majors in his life, compared to a 23 year old with twice the talent, who is already putting up better stats in many areas doesn't make any sense.

Simple.......defense. I'm to the point where I don't care what these two do at the plate. This team has had a solid offense for several years now, their pitching and shoddy defense has been their downfalls. Freel makes the left side of the infield much stronger defensively. If this team was not in contention, I would have no problem with letting EE start everyday giving him the chance to improve, but as long as he keeps throwing that side arm crap to first he is a liability IMO.

[dabvu2498]

Who is Mato?


Do you even realize Edwin is a 23 year old in his 1st full year? He isn't even close to his prime, and is already OPSing better Freel.

I don't see how you would rather have Freel.. A 30 year old utility player who has never played everyday in the majors in his life, compared to a 23 year old with twice the talent, who is already putting up better stats in many areas doesn't make any sense.
I think he meant Rueben "5 Tool" Mateo.

As far as Freel goes, it has been said many times that Freel put up his best numbers in 2004 when he played in 143 games, 505 ABs. (.277 .375 .368, 37 SBs)

[reds44]

Simple.......defense. I'm to the point where I don't care what these two do at the plate. This team has had a solid offense for several years now, their pitching and shoddy defense has been their downfalls. Freel makes the left side of the infield much stronger defensively. If this team was not in contention, I would have no problem with letting EE start everyday giving him the chance to improve, but as long as he keeps throwing that side arm crap to first he is a liability IMO.
Do you remember how many errors Larkin made when he was young? How about GG Mike Schmidt? They turned out well.

How about Rickie Weeks for the Brewers? At least they are smart enough to stick with him.

Young fielders make errors. It happens. Not to mention EE has much better range then any other option we have.

[cReds1]

Glad to see Freel go out there and play hurt while Junior takes a needed day off before he heads off to the Bahamas. Man, I am sure glad Narron knows what he is doing.

[Johnny Vander m]

Simple.......defense. I'm to the point where I don't care what these two do at the plate. This team has had a solid offense for several years now, their pitching and shoddy defense has been their downfalls. Freel makes the left side of the infield much stronger defensively. If this team was not in contention, I would have no problem with letting EE start everyday giving him the chance to improve, but as long as he keeps throwing that side arm crap to first he is a liability IMO.


Plus Freel b/a =294 EE b/a 268
OBP- Freel 380 EE 361
Did I mention hustle?
Did I mention getting the ball to first base?
Oh, stolen bases?

Give me a break!

[Johnny Vander m]

Do you remember how many errors Larkin made when he was young? How about GG Mike Schmidt? They turned out well.

How about Rickie Weeks for the Brewers? At least they are smart enough to stick with him.

Young fielders make errors. It happens. Not to mention EE has much better range then any other option we have.


What does Larkin and Schmidt have to do with this?

[reds44]

Plus Freel b/a =294 EE b/a 268
OBP- Freel 380 EE 361
Did I mention hustle?
Did I mention getting the ball to first base?
Oh, stolen bases?

Give me a break!
He hustles more? Ok.....

Give me the better player, not the one who hustles more.

Freel is a contact and speed guy, he better have a better B.A. and more stolen bases then Edwin.

How about extra bases hits? Oh
How about RBIs? Oh
How about Slugging percentage? oh
How about be 7 years younger? oh
How about being one of the Top 25 prospects in baseball last year? Oh
How about having range at 3rd base? Oh
How about having a rocket arm? Oh

How about I can't even believe I am having this conversation. You are a man after Narron's heart. You gotta love those scrappy vets.

[jimbo]

Do you remember how many errors Larkin made when he was young? How about GG Mike Schmidt? They turned out well.

How about Rickie Weeks for the Brewers? At least they are smart enough to stick with him.

Young fielders make errors. It happens. Not to mention EE has much better range then any other option we have.

I understand what you are saying, but this team is still in contention and needs to improve their defense dramatically if they want to have a chance for the postseason. You could hide him a lot easier if the the team was an overall good defensive team, but it is far from that. As long as this team is contending, I want to try and get my best defense on the field and Lopez and EE together is too much of a liability IMO.

How much range a third baseman has is irrelevant if he can't throw the ball to first consistantly.

[KronoRed]

I think it's just as as irrelevant to have a 3b who can make nice throws but can only make plays on balls hit right at them ;)

[M2]

Simple, if EE would hustle one half as much as Freel, he might be a better player.

When I read stuff like this I become CONVINCED that the Reds are being cursed at a karmic level by their own fandom.

Encarnacion hustles plenty. I've seen most every game of his game of his MLB career and can't once recall thinking his effort was lacking. In fact, everything I've seen from him and read about him indicates he's a hard working kid.

As for what Larkin and Schmidt and a host of other past players have to do with Encarnacion, you might have noticed that a lot of leftside IFs who go onto win GGs and become noted for their leather-slapping skills commit a bunch of errors in their first few seasons. In fact, it's a downright common occurrence.

[westofyou]

When I read stuff like this I become CONVINCED that the Reds are being cursed at a karmic level by their own fandom.

"His constant hustle annoyed people."

Jim O'Toole on Pete Rose.

[Cedric]

When I read stuff like this I become CONVINCED that the Reds are being cursed at a karmic level by their own fandom.

Encarnacion hustles plenty. I've seen most every game of his game of his MLB career and can't once recall thinking his effort was lacking. In fact, everything I've seen from him and read about him indicates he's a hard working kid.

As for what Larkin and Schmidt and a host of other past players have to do with Encarnacion, you might have noticed that a lot of leftside IFs who go onto win GGs and become noted for their leather-slapping skills commit a bunch of errors in their first few seasons. In fact, it's a downright common occurrence.

It's totally insane the amount of pressure that this kid has. I blame this on the general manager though. There is no way in the world that Krivsky should allow Edwin to sit on the bench unless it's still the ankle.

[reds44]

When I read stuff like this I become CONVINCED that the Reds are being cursed at a karmic level by their own fandom.

Encarnacion hustles plenty. I've seen most every game of his game of his MLB career and can't once recall thinking his effort was lacking. In fact, everything I've seen from him and read about him indicates he's a hard working kid.

As for what Larkin and Schmidt and a host of other past players have to do with Encarnacion, you might have noticed that a lot of leftside IFs who go onto win GGs and become noted for their leather-slapping skills commit a bunch of errors in their first few seasons. In fact, it's a downright common occurrence.
I really don't think Edwin has a problem with effort. Sometimes I actually think he tries too hard.

[Blue]

It's totally insane the amount of pressure that this kid has. I blame this on the general manager though. There is no way in the world that Krivsky should allow Edwin to sit on the bench unless it's still the ankle.

Or maybe Narron is on some kind of post-contract extension power trip?

[reds44]

It's totally insane the amount of pressure that this kid has. I blame this on the general manager though. There is no way in the world that Krivsky should allow Edwin to sit on the bench unless it's still the ankle.
If Edwin has to worry about being benched after every error, he is only going to commit more errors.

Narron is well on his way to ruining him.

[westofyou]

Narron is well on his way to ruining him.

He's a step away from Chris Brown and Willie Green he is.

[M2]

He's a step away from Chris Brown and Willie Green he is.

Nah, I'm pretty sure he's mentally tough enough to survive nonsense like this without much trouble. My only worry with Encarnacion is that another team will liberate him when the Reds are in one of their "don't trust the kids" moods.

[Chip R]

I guess part of the problem with our two young infielders is that they do not show enough emotion out there. No bat throwing after a strikeout, no anguished looks after an error. At least that is what I gathered after listening to the first part of the game and the Tracy Jones Show after the game.

[westofyou]

Nah, I'm pretty sure he's mentally tough enough to survive nonsense like this without much trouble. My only worry with Encarnacion is that another team will liberate him when the Reds are in one of their "don't trust the kids" moods.
I'm being facetious, I think they have parlayed the AS break into an extended rest after the run of games, JJ Hardy badly sprained his ankle in Mid May and he's still out, I'm of the opinion that caution, plus not having a shortage at 3rd is making then play the safe card on this.

Plus I also believe part of the reason Juan Castro was brought in is to make sure Chris or Willie never show up to visit EE.

[westofyou]

I guess part of the problem with our two young infielders is that they do not show enough emotion out there. No bat throwing after a strikeout, no anguished looks after an error. At least that is what I gathered after listening to the first part of the game and the Tracy Jones Show after the game.
Yep, I had to listen to my friend rag on Eric Chavez at the Colisieum the other day for the exact same reason.

[IslandRed]

As for what Larkin and Schmidt and a host of other past players have to do with Encarnacion, you might have noticed that a lot of leftside IFs who go onto win GGs and become noted for their leather-slapping skills commit a bunch of errors in their first few seasons. In fact, it's a downright common occurrence.

Yep. Of course, the trick is to tell the Future Gold Glovers Getting Adjusted from the Guys Who Will Never Hit The Side Of A Barn.

I'm not big on the Narron Hates EdE conspiracy theory, as he was still playing regularly when he got hurt, but I can see where the longer the Reds stay in nominal contention the less patience JN's likely to show for anyone's rookie growing pains. That's a shame, because EdE needs to play.

[Johnny Vander m]

I guess part of the problem with our two young infielders is that they do not show enough emotion out there. No bat throwing after a strikeout, no anguished looks after an error. At least that is what I gathered after listening to the first part of the game and the Tracy Jones Show after the game.


That's part of it Chip, for sure.

[jimbo]

I'm not big on the Narron Hates EdE conspiracy theory, as he was still playing regularly when he got hurt, but I can see where the longer the Reds stay in nominal contention the less patience JN's likely to show for anyone's rookie growing pains. That's a shame, because EdE needs to play.

The question has become, do the Reds play for this season or next?

[reds44]

The question has become, do the Reds play for this season or next?
You play for both.

Edwin is your best option at 3rd base. When we had sucess earlier in the year, he was playing 3rd.

[Blue]

I guess part of the problem with our two young infielders is that they do not show enough emotion out there. No bat throwing after a strikeout, no anguished looks after an error.

I can't tell if you're joking. That is in no way the problem with Lopez or Encarnacion. That is the problem with how some people evaluate the effort of our two young infielders.

Anybody can throw a bat or appear anguished. You know how?

John Lovitz: Acting!

Phil Hartman: Brilliant!

[reds44]

I can't tell if you're joking. That is in no way the problem with Lopez or Encarnacion. That is the problem with how some people evaluate the effort of our two young infielders.

Anybody can throw a bat or appear anguished. You know how?

John Lovitz: Acting!

Phil Hartman: Brilliant!
I am pretty sure he was kidding.

[Johnny Vander m]

I will ask all you EE lovers and fans this question before I retire for the night,,,,,Are we trying to win the division this year or giving up and just training the future AAA players for the future? Think about it. We have a decent chance this year, why let EE toss it away.

Sleep good my friends.

[Blue]

I am pretty sure he was kidding.

I thought so, but JVM appeared to think he was serious...

and I don't think JVM was acting. ;)

[CTA513]

I will ask all you EE lovers and fans this question before I retire for the night,,,,,Are we trying to win the division this year or giving up and just training the future AAA players for the future? Think about it. We have a decent chance this year, why let EE toss it away.

Sleep good my friends.

Same thing can be said about Lopez.

:evil:

[reds44]

I will ask all you EE lovers and fans this question before I retire for the night,,,,,Are we trying to win the division this year or giving up and just training the future AAA players for the future? Think about it. We have a decent chance this year, why let EE toss it away.

Sleep good my friends.
Who was playing 3rd base when we were going really well earlier in the year?
Who was not playing 3rd base the last month when things have gone bad?

Edwin is your answer.

[Johnny Vander m]

Same thing can be said about Lopez.

:evil:
You are correct sir, but he is not that bad.

[Blue]

I will ask all you EE lovers and fans this question before I retire for the night,,,,,Are we trying to win the division this year or giving up and just training the future AAA players for the future? Think about it. We have a decent chance this year, why let EE toss it away.

Sleep good my friends.

False dichotomy. We can win the division this year and give young players like EE reps at the Major League level.

Aurilia has no range. Encarnacion has excellent range.

Aurilia's bat is inferior to Edwin's.

Freel wears down when he plays everyday. Edwin is strong like bull and doesn't.

[CTA513]

You are correct sir, but he is not that bad.

Lopez has 14 errors so far this year.
He had 17 errors all of last year, so 14 at the half way point of this year is pretty many.

Both guys need to improve.

[Johnny Vander m]

False dichotomy. We can win the division this year and give young players like EE reps at the Major League level.

Aurilia has no range. Encarnacion has excellent range.

Aurilia's bat is inferior to Edwin's.

Freel wears down when he plays everyday. Edwin is strong like bull and doesn't.

RA has no range? What good is range if you are going to throw it into the the 3rd row?
RA's bat inferior? Who would you want batting with runners in scoring posistion? I would take RA over ANYONE on that question.
I could go on and on but don't want to embarass you since your new. ugh!

[Ravenlord]

Lopez has 14 errors so far this year.
He had 17 errors all of last year, so 14 at the half way point of this year is pretty many.

anyone else think that a large part of this is having Aurilia and Hatteberg over there instead of Casey?

Casey had no range, but he is a well above average picker and footwork man, whereas Aurilia and Hatteberg are brutal in that regard.

[reds44]

RA has no range? What good is range if you are going to throw it into the the 3rd row?
RA's bat inferior? Who would you want batting with runners in scoring posistion? I would take RA over ANYONE on that question.
I could go on and on but don't want to embarass you since your new. ugh!
With RISP:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/player/splits/2006/7394
Rich has a .258/.300/.800

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/player/splits/2006/392294
Edwin has a .317/.400/.983

I'd rather have Edwin up with Rich.

You're doing a good job of embarassing yourself; don't worry about embarassing others.

[Blue]

RA has no range? What good is range if you are going to throw it into the the 3rd row?
RA's bat inferior? Who would you want batting with runners in scoring posistion? I would take RA over ANYONE on that question.
I could go on and on but don't want to embarass you since your new. ugh!

Aurilia, .258 AVG and .800 OPS with RISP

Encarnacion, .317 AVG and .983 OPS with RISP

God, I hope I get to say this before someone else does.

By the way, as someone has no doubt pointed out: Range allows Edwin to get to balls that guys like Aurilia can't get to. Sure, Edwin throws a good number of balls away, but what difference does it make? The guy would still be on base if Aurilia were a fielder.

I could go on, but I don't want to embarass you since you're a scrappy vet... zinger!

[Blue]

Foiled again!

[Ravenlord]

RA's bat inferior?and how.


Who would you want batting with runners in scoring posistion?Ross,Encarnacion, Dunn, Griffey, Hatteberg, Phillips, Aurilia in that order going strictly by this season. going with a more macro view i'd go with LaRue, Dunn, Griffey, Encarnacion, and Kearns in that order. :)


I could go on and on but don't want to embarass you since your new. ugh!that seemed more than a little uncalled for.:nono:

[Blue]

anyone else think that a large part of this is having Aurilia and Hatteberg over there instead of Casey?

Casey had no range, but he is a well above average picker and footwork man, whereas Aurilia and Hatteberg are brutal in that regard.

Hadn't really thought about it. However, you would think that Aurilia would have good footwork and hands, seeing as he has experience at SS. Not that he was ever stellar there. I don't really know if there is a difference between many 1B as far as digging out throws. Some 1B may just make it look cooler... pure speculation.

[Big Klu]

You play for both.

Edwin is your best option at 3rd base. When we had sucess earlier in the year, he was playing 3rd.

I think that Encarnacion is definitely the future at 3B, as well as their best 3B now, but don't confuse correlation with causation.

I also think that westofyou is right--the Reds parlayed the All-Star Break into an extended rest period for him. I am of the opinion that he is not 100%, despite playing several games at Louisville. But he is healthy enough to play if needed, and the bench is stronger with a less-than-100% Edwin available (particularly as a right-handed bat off the bench) than it would be if he were still on the disabled list.

[jimbo]

Who was playing 3rd base when we were going really well earlier in the year?
Who was not playing 3rd base the last month when things have gone bad?

Edwin is your answer.

Whatever, try checking the bullpen stats pre-EE's sprained ankle and post-EE's sprained ankle. Might want to look at the starter's stats also. Offense is not this team's problems.....defense (or lack thereof) and relief pitching (or lack thereof) is.

[reds44]

Whatever, try checking the bullpen stats pre-EE's sprained ankle and post-EE's sprained ankle. Might want to look at the starter's stats also. Offense is not this team's problems.....defense (or lack thereof) and relief pitching (or lack thereof) is.
We averaged 6.3 runs per game before Edwin went on the DL, and 4.2 runs per game when he was on it.

Whatever that.

[jimbo]

We averaged 6.3 runs per game before Edwin went on the DL, and 4.2 runs per game when he was on it.

Whatever that.

Hmmm....I went and counted by myself the runs scored before and after EE went on the DL and came up with 5.25 before and 4.61 after. I'll go back and check again but I did it twice. That isn't that big difference in my opinion. It's too late now, but I'll figure out the bullpen numbers before and after tomorrow. I'm thinking you'll see a big difference there and that's why this team has struggled of recent.

As you say it.....whatever that.

[reds44]

Hmmm....I went and counted by myself the runs scored before and after EE went on the DL and came up with 5.25 before and 4.61 after. I'll go back and check again but I did it twice. That isn't that big difference in my opinion. It's too late now, but I'll figure out the bullpen numbers before and after tomorrow. I'm thinking you'll see a big difference there and that's why this team has struggled of recent.

As you say it.....whatever that.
Runs scored by game when EE was on the DL-
2
3
5
4
3
4
6
1
4
2
6
2
3
0
4
8
7
6
9
7
3
7
2
5

24 games, 103 runs
4.29 RPG

We have scrored 445 runs as a team, and we have player 89 games.
445-103=342
89-24=65
342/65=5.26

Which is 5.26 RPG. Yes I was wrong we haven't scored 2 more RPG we have scored 1 more RPG when Edwin has been on the roster. A run per game is a big difference.

Also I went back to see what our record is when Edwin starts, and we are 30-23 when he starts, compared to 15-21 when doesn't.

So we are 7 over when he starts, and 6 under when he doesn't. We averaged a run less per game when he was on the DL.

You are going to tell me Edwin has nothing to do with it?

[Jpup]

Freel probably just has some inflamation. It's nothing a shot won't take care of. He'll be fine.

[M2]

Hmmm....I went and counted by myself the runs scored before and after EE went on the DL and came up with 5.25 before and 4.61 after. I'll go back and check again but I did it twice. That isn't that big difference in my opinion.

That's a HUGE difference. It's a 104 runs over the course of a full season difference. For the Reds it's the difference between possibly hanging around .500 and making a full-tilt run at 90 losses.

[registerthis]

He can't play everyday. This is just another example of it.

Please feel free to show others.

[OnBaseMachine]

RA has no range? What good is range if you are going to throw it into the the 3rd row?
RA's bat inferior? Who would you want batting with runners in scoring posistion? I would take RA over ANYONE on that question.
I could go on and on but don't want to embarass you since your new. ugh!

As others have pointed out:

Edwin Encarnacion - .317/.400/.583-.983

Rich Aurilia - .258/.300/.500-.800

Feeling embarassed yet? I know I would after making a post like yours and then seeing it get shot down with facts.

[redsupport]

what is the point of playing a declining veteran over a rising young player. This is exactly the inanity that characterizes the franchise. Aurilia should be rerouted

[registerthis]

Aurilia should be rerouted

Sounds painful.

[jimbo]

So we are 7 over when he starts, and 6 under when he doesn't. We averaged a run less per game when he was on the DL.

You are going to tell me Edwin has nothing to do with it?

I'm saying the problems with this team since EE went on the DL has not been offense, rather the bullpen. And again, I don't care what he can do with the bat if he is a liability on defense. Am I the only one who recognizes that this team has problems on defense?

[M2]

I'm saying the problems with this team since EE went on the DL has not been offense, rather the bullpen. And again, I don't care what he can do with the bat if he is a liability on defense. Am I the only one who recognizes that this team has problems on defense?

No, I just don't think Encarnacion's a major contributor to the overall defensive problem. You've got Jr.'s rangeless defense in CF and absolutely no one's played well at SS so far. Compared to the damage done by the balls that various up-the-middle defenders aren't even reaching, Encarnacion's errors are a spit in the bucket.

Heck, given the pitching woes since EdE went on the shelf you could even construct an argument that maybe the pitching staff misses EdE's glove behind them. The team doesn't have another 3B who can range left and make the play in the hole or rob the opposition of a double down the line.

[goreds2]

No, I just don't think Encarnacion's a major contributor to the overall defensive problem. You've got Jr.'s rangeless defense in CF and absolutely no one's played well at SS so far. Compared to the damage done by the balls that various up-the-middle defenders aren't even reaching, Encarnacion's errors are a spit in the bucket.

Heck, given the pitching woes since EdE went on the shelf you could even construct an argument that maybe the pitching staff misses EdE's glove behind them. The team doesn't have another 3B who can range left and make the play in the hole or rob the opposition of a double down the line.

I agree 100%. (Nice Post)

[jimbo]

No, I just don't think Encarnacion's a major contributor to the overall defensive problem. You've got Jr.'s rangeless defense in CF and absolutely no one's played well at SS so far. Compared to the damage done by the balls that various up-the-middle defenders aren't even reaching, Encarnacion's errors are a spit in the bucket.

Heck, given the pitching woes since EdE went on the shelf you could even construct an argument that maybe the pitching staff misses EdE's glove behind them. The team doesn't have another 3B who can range left and make the play in the hole or rob the opposition of a double down the line.

Ok, I respect your opinion and I'll just agree to disagree. I think EE's defensive problems are more than a spit in the bucket. I'm not going to get into the Jr. thing because I totally disagree there also. When you put EE in at 3B along with Lopez at SS and Dunn in LF, the whole left side of the defense is pretty weak. EE's throwing errors have been in my opinion because of bad throwing mechanics and carelessness. If he continues to throw side arm to 1b he is going to continue to throw the ball away.

[jimbo]

Before EE went on the DL, Reds pitchers were giving up 4.63 runs per game. After he went on DL, Reds pitchers gave up 5.66 runs per game. And there is no way you can convince me that those numbers are the result of not having EE at 3B.

[lollipopcurve]

In my view, the error EdE made in his 1st game back was at least equally the result of one of Hatteberg's shortcomings as a 1st baseman. The throw barely -- and I mean barely -- pulled him off the bag towards home plate. Hatteberg himself thought he still had the bag. A first baseman over 6'0" likely fields that throw without much problem. It was such an innocuous error that I have to wonder if there isn't something else behind EdE's recent "inactivity."

[reds44]

In my view, the error EdE made in his 1st game back was at least equally the result of one of Hatteberg's shortcomings as a 1st baseman. The throw barely -- and I mean barely -- pulled him off the bag towards home plate. Hatteberg himself thought he still had the bag. A first baseman over 6'0" likely fields that throw without much problem. It was such an innocuous error that I have to wonder if there isn't something else behind EdE's recent "inactivity."
Exactly. Replay showed that actually Hatteberg was still on the bag. So a blown call by the ump and you are benched for 3 days?

IMO, Narron was just looking for an excuse to sit Edwin.

[jimbo]

Exactly. Replay showed that actually Hatteberg was still on the bag. So a blown call by the ump and you are benched for 3 days?

IMO, Narron was just looking for an excuse to sit Edwin.

Still an errant throw, and it wasn't the first time this season.

[reds44]

Still an errant throw, and it wasn't the first time this season.
It won't be the last either.

Doesn't change the fact he gets to balls that Rich and Freel don't, and has one of the best bats on the team.

Most young infielders (especially 3rd baseman) struggle with errors. The key is to let them work through it.

[M2]

Before EE went on the DL, Reds pitchers were giving up 4.63 runs per game. After he went on DL, Reds pitchers gave up 5.66 runs per game. And there is no way you can convince me that those numbers are the result of not having EE at 3B.

Me either, but every little bit helps and if things went to hell after the kid got injured then perhaps he's part of the solution and not part of the problem. Clearly not having EdE hasn't spurred any sort of improvement for the defense.

Anyway, the Reds do have one player who, when he went down with an injury, the defense and runs against improved dramatically in his absence and his name isn't Edwin Encarnacion.

[lollipopcurve]

Still an errant throw

Without undersized targets like Hatteberg and Aurilia, EdE has fewer errors. Not saying EdE made a good throw -- just saying most other 3rd basemen in the majors get an assist for that throw, not an error.

[reds44]

Me either, but every little bit helps and if things went to hell after the kid got injured then perhaps he's part of the solution and not part of the problem. Clearly not having EdE hasn't spurred any sort of improvement for the defense.

Anyway, the Reds do have one player who, when he went down with an injury, the defense and runs against improved dramatically in his absence and his name isn't Edwin Encarnacion.
coughGRIFFEYcough

[jimbo]

Me either, but every little bit helps and if things went to hell after the kid got injured then perhaps he's part of the solution and not part of the problem. Clearly not having EdE hasn't spurred any sort of improvement for the defense.

Anyway, the Reds do have one player who, when he went down with an injury, the defense and runs against improved dramatically in his absence and his name isn't Edwin Encarnacion.

I wonder who you may be talking about? :) Sorry, you won't convince of that one either.

Good discussion guys.....M2, reds44, and others. What's so great about this board is that we can have a good discussion and disagree, yet we all still want the same thing.

Go Reds!!!!

[jimbo]

Without undersized targets like Hatteberg and Aurilia, EdE has fewer errors. Not saying EdE made a good throw -- just saying most other 3rd basemen in the majors get an assist for that throw, not an error.

I'm still saying, as long as he continues to throw side arm, he will continue to have problems throwing the ball accurately to 1B consistantly. It could be a case where Reds coaches are trying to correct his mechanics and he isn't being receptive. Fact of the matter is, we only see what's on the surface at game time. There could be a lot of other issues going on that we know nothing about.

Ok, I'm really done now......have to go.

[RollyInRaleigh]

I'm still saying, as long as he continues to throw side arm, he will continue to have problems throwing the ball accurately to 1B consistantly. It could be a case where Reds coaches are trying to correct his mechanics and he isn't being receptive. Fact of the matter is, we only see what's on the surface at game time. There could be a lot of other issues going on that we know nothing about.

Ok, I'm really done now......have to go.

Nice observation. I agree, totally.

[Chip R]

I can't tell if you're joking. That is in no way the problem with Lopez or Encarnacion. That is the problem with how some people evaluate the effort of our two young infielders.

Anybody can throw a bat or appear anguished. You know how?

John Lovitz: Acting!

Phil Hartman: Brilliant!

Actually I was dead serious. Marty and Hal were talking about it during the 2nd inning and Tracy Jones mentioned it after the game.

[KronoRed]

Please feel free to show others.
Did you miss May and his diving avg and OBP? the guy wears himself out playing everyday.

[Matt700wlw]

He can't play everyday. This is just another example of it.


That being said I hope he is ok. If he goes on the DL does Deno or Olmedo come up?


Why did he play 3 days in a row if he had a hurt shoulder?

Cause Edwin wasn't available? Oh wait...yes he was

:D

[flyer85]

All this talk of arm slot makes me wonder if anyone ever saw Buddy Bell play 3rd base.

[Ravenlord]

All this talk of arm slot makes me wonder if anyone ever saw Buddy Bell play 3rd base.
or Aramis Ramirez or Nomar Garciaparra, and if memory serves, didn't George Brett side arm it most of the time?

[flyer85]

or Aramis Ramirez or Nomar Garciaparra, and if memory serves, didn't George Brett side arm it most of the time?the difference about Bell is that he had the most accurate throwing arm from 3b I have ever seen, it was unreal.

[WMR]

How many errors did David Wright have last season?

[reds44]

How many errors did David Wright have last season?
http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=431151&statType=1
24

[Ravenlord]

How many errors did David Wright have last season?
24.

but he had 17 at the end of June.

[reds44]

24.

but he had 17 at the end of June.
And he played in 160 games. So when he struggled early in the year, he wasn't benched and look how he turned out.

[westofyou]

How many did Mike Lamb have in 2000?

[Ravenlord]

How many did Mike Lamb have in 2000?
33.

[reds44]

How many did Mike Lamb have in 2000?
http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_individual_stats_player.jsp?playerID=150286&statType=1

33 in 129 starts.

[westofyou]

Worst since Expansion


ERRORS YEAR E A G PCT RANGE AGE
1 Butch Hobson 1978 43 261 133 .899 2.88 26
2 Dick Allen 1964 41 325 162 .921 2.96 22
3 Pete Ward 1963 38 302 154 .923 2.97 23
T4 Joel Youngblood 1984 36 195 117 .887 2.41 32
T4 Darrell Evans 1975 36 381 156 .938 3.47 28
T6 Dick Allen 1967 35 249 121 .908 2.84 25
T6 Larry Parrish 1975 35 291 143 .919 2.77 21
T6 Bobby Bonilla 1989 35 330 156 .929 2.92 26
T6 Tony Perez 1970 35 286 153 .923 2.73 28
T10 Gary Sheffield 1993 34 225 133 .899 2.29 24
T10 Ken Boyer 1963 34 293 159 .925 2.65 32
T12 Troy Glaus 2000 33 348 156 .933 2.94 23
T12 Mike Lamb 2000 33 230 135 .913 2.58 24
T12 Aramis Ramirez 2003 33 336 159 .929 2.72 25
T12 Todd Zeile 1993 33 310 153 .923 2.57 27
T16 Bob Bailey 1963 32 332 153 .933 2.91 20
T16 Jim Ray Hart 1965 32 231 144 .919 2.53 23
T16 Bobby Bonilla 1988 32 336 159 .935 2.87 25
T16 Tony Perez 1969 32 342 160 .937 2.99 27
T16 Russ Davis 1998 32 250 137 .905 2.23 28
21 Ron Santo 1961 31 307 153 .937 3.03 21
T22 George Brett 1979 30 373 149 .944 3.37 26
T22 Darrell Evans 1979 30 369 159 .943 3.13 32
T22 Pedro Guerrero 1983 30 305 157 .934 2.73 27
T22 Joe Foy 1968 30 313 147 .935 2.92 25
T22 Paul Schaal 1973 30 237 121 .913 2.60 30

[flyer85]

Aramis Ramirez has slashed his error rate in the last three years. I beleive he only has 4 to this point in the season.

Santo won 5 Gold Gloves at 3B in 1964-1968.

[WMR]

24.

but he had 17 at the end of June.

Also, wasn't he throwing to a GG caliber 1st baseman?

I think it's disingenuous for folks to totally discount the targets that Edwin has been throwing to this year. Far from your prototypical first-sackers.

[Ltlabner]

I totally agree! EE's sidearm throwing is definatley the cause of Freel needing an MRI! :rolleyes:

[flyer85]

Also, wasn't he throwing to a GG caliber 1st baseman?

I think it's disingenuous for folks to totally discount the targets that Edwin has been throwing to this year. Far from your prototypical first-sackers.A good picking 1b with some height can make his infielders look really good (see guys like Snow and Olerud)

[Ravenlord]

Aramis Ramirez has slashed his error rate in the last three years. I beleive he only has 4 to this point in the season.

you would be right. his issue has always been his footwork. even when he would have time he wouldn't set his feet to throw the ball which caused all sorts of unbalanced throws. now, at the ripe old age of 28, he's finally figured it out.

[Ravenlord]

Also, wasn't he throwing to a GG caliber 1st baseman?
not just GG caliber, but probably the best all-around defensive 1B in the game.

Mienkiewicz played 83 games at first, and the rest were divided between Chris Woodward, Marlon Anderson and Mike Jaconbs.

[RollyInRaleigh]

All this talk of arm slot makes me wonder if anyone ever saw Buddy Bell play 3rd base.

You are right on Bell being so accurate, flyer85. As he got older, Bell knew exactly how to use that quick "little flip" to first to save his arm. When Buddy really needed to make that tough long throw from third, check the arm slot then. He could still dial it up. Early in his career, he had one of the premier third base arms around. Must have been in the genes, cause his daddy had a gun from the outfield. Buddy was always one of my favorite players, from Cleveland to Texas to the Reds and Houston.

[Handofdeath]

Actually I was dead serious. Marty and Hal were talking about it during the 2nd inning and Tracy Jones mentioned it after the game.

If I screw up at work does that mean I get to throw my computer to show how upset I am?

[membengal]

If I screw up at work does that mean I get to throw my computer to show how upset I am?

It turns out the bossman doesn't like it so much when you do...

[Handofdeath]

It turns out the bossman doesn't like it so much when you do...

Right, but an athlete can throw his bat or glove or act like a petulant brat and its called caring.