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View Full Version : Can the Reds be in the Daisuke Matsuzaka sweepstakes?



savafan
07-17-2006, 08:46 PM
I'd love to see the Reds sign this guy.

http://brssports.blogspot.com/2006/07/you-arent-going-to-believe-me.html

With some Major League teams already out of contention, their fans have free agency to look forward to. The biggest name this offseason? Daisuke Matsuzaka...who? Daisuke Matsuzaka is the best pitcher in Japan (10-2, 2.03 ERA this year) and has expressed a desire to play in the Major Leagues next year. What distinguishes this 25-year-old Japanese pitcher from past Asian pitchers such as Hideo Nomo and Chan Ho Park? I'll tell you, his ridiculously absurd arm stamina. Here is some proof at how insane this guy's right arm is:

"Matsuzaka graduated from Yokohama High School in Japan in 1998. Matsuzaka became a national hero in 1998 when he pitched Yokohama High School into the Koshien Tournament and dominated the competition like no one before or since. In the quarterfinals of that year's Koshien national high school baseball tournament, he threw 250 pitches in 17 innings against traditional powerhouse P.L. Gakuen. In stifling heat, Matsuzaka pitched a game for the ages, emerging victorious. The very next day, in the final, he threw a no-hitter--the first ever in a final--to win both the tournament and the admiration of the nation. This performance garnered the attention of a great many scouts. After his graduation, he was taken by the Seibu Lions with the first pick of the 1998 draft." (courtesy of Wikipedia)

That might be the most amazing individual sports feat I have ever heard. 250 pitches and then a no-hitter the next day? I am in shock and disbelief. Certainly we will be hearing this guy's name a bunch this upcoming offseason. I can easily envision him in pinstripes.


Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAwmW2S-xX4&search=Matsuzaka)

redsmetz
07-17-2006, 08:51 PM
That looked like some wicked curves. Is that a slider the two or three that look like they were razor sharp lasers to the catchers mitt? He had one curve that just moved all over. Sweet.

dsmith421
07-17-2006, 08:51 PM
The Reds would have to put up over $10M merely to begin negotiatons with him. No chance.

Nugget
07-17-2006, 08:53 PM
I would also guess that he would be going to either New York or Seattle given that it would be easier to settle in. Not saying anything about the REDS but I don't think they have had huge success with Asian free agents.

savafan
07-17-2006, 08:54 PM
The Reds would have to put up over $10M merely to begin negotiatons with him. No chance.

$10 million for that gyroball...I'd do it...yesterday

Blue
07-17-2006, 08:56 PM
The Reds would have to put up over $10M merely to begin negotiatons with him. No chance.

Yeah, that's the thing. They'd have to put in the winning bid for the right to negotiate with him, then work out a large contract. He could be quite a splash for whoever gets him.

Joseph
07-17-2006, 08:56 PM
I'd like to hope so, but he'll go to either the Yankess, Mets, or Mariners. Asian players, of the star variety, just don't seem to sign anywhere else.

savafan
07-17-2006, 08:58 PM
I'd like to hope so, but he'll go to either the Yankess, Mets, or Mariners. Asian players, of the star variety, just don't seem to sign anywhere else.

That needs to stop, and we need to be the trendsetter. ;)

The Reds have a history of trendsetting, night baseball, paying their players, signing Cuban born players, etc.

Joseph
07-17-2006, 08:59 PM
That needs to stop, and we need to be the trendsetter. ;)

The Reds have a history of trendsetting, night baseball, paying their players, signing Cuban born players, etc.

I'm game, sign me [errr him] up.

Blue
07-17-2006, 09:01 PM
By the way, I did a metric-to-English conversion on those pitches. Fastball is about 93 mph, and the curve is about 82 mph.

Caveat Emperor
07-17-2006, 09:05 PM
I'd like to hope so, but he'll go to either the Yankess, Mets, or Mariners. Asian players, of the star variety, just don't seem to sign anywhere else.

Money has a lot to do with that in New York -- plus the big city environment makes the move to America less of a culture shock, or so I've read.

Seattle just has a great pipeline that they've ridden with players like Ichiro Suziki, Kazuhiro Sasaki, and now Kenji Johjima -- makes it a lot easier for them to attract more asian players when they have talent already there to help acclemate the new players coming accross the pacific.

I'd put the Reds chances on this guy at absolutely 0.

redsmetz
07-17-2006, 09:07 PM
I would also guess that he would be going to either New York or Seattle given that it would be easier to settle in. Not saying anything about the REDS but I don't think they have had huge success with Asian free agents.

Cincinnati has a larger Japanese population than you might think. Quite a lot of Japanese owned companies here (Toyotas' U.S. HQ is across the river in Erlanger).

Nugget
07-17-2006, 09:21 PM
I wasn't looking so much at the general community but the infrastructure those teams have already for asian free agents "straight off the boat" so to speak.

Mario-Rijo
07-17-2006, 09:32 PM
This one is so easy. Matsuzaka pitching to Kenji Johjima of which they are already familiar!! Game over, Seattle wins! But I sure would like too see David Ross take a Japanese course or 2 over the off-season.

jnwohio
07-17-2006, 09:37 PM
Cincinnati has a larger Japanese population than you might think. Quite a lot of Japanese owned companies here (Toyotas' U.S. HQ is across the river in Erlanger).


Don't know to what extent it is Japanese but there is a very large population of east Asian descent all along the northwest coast. I was just in Vacouver which is just a long stone's throw away from Seattle. It has the 3rd largest Chinatown area in North America after 'Frisco and New York City and they are making noise that it may soon surpass NYC.

Nugget
07-17-2006, 09:53 PM
Vancouver's Richmond is basically a Hong Kong suburb. You can get by without having to speak or read a word of english in the whole suburb. Its mainly ex Hkers who migrated before the handover.

CTA513
07-17-2006, 10:06 PM
Teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Mariners are probably going to have a bidding war going on to try and get him.

Blue
07-17-2006, 10:27 PM
Here is a link to an article that talks about him and the process a team would have to go through to sign him. Basically teams must submit sealed bids to the Japanese team that holds his rights. The highest bidder recieves the right to negotiate with him on an actual contract.

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/08/mlb_deep_2006_f.html

The Mariners paid Ichiro's team about $11 million just for the rights to negotiate. I'm not sure what would have happened if they hadn't been able to reach an agreement. Does anyone know?

edabbs44
07-17-2006, 11:00 PM
I'd like to hope so, but he'll go to either the Yankess, Mets, or Mariners. Asian players, of the star variety, just don't seem to sign anywhere else.
Don't forget LA.

savafan
07-17-2006, 11:28 PM
The Mariners paid Ichiro's team about $11 million just for the rights to negotiate. I'm not sure what would have happened if they hadn't been able to reach an agreement. Does anyone know?

I believe the player then returns to his Japanese team and then the process can start over the following season.

Deepred05
07-17-2006, 11:47 PM
I believe the player then returns to his Japanese team and then the process can start over the following season.
And the $11 million is bye bye.:(

savafan
07-18-2006, 12:01 AM
And the $11 million is bye bye.:(

That's why you make sure you sign these guys. Face it, no matter what, they're likely to make more playing here than they are in their home country.

crazybob60
07-18-2006, 12:08 AM
I would venture to say that even if we are somewhat in contention for this guy, we don't end up with him, that's just the feeling I get with this and also with the track record we have with such players. As I have read in another thread, we need to go back to how we were many moons ago and get our connections back up and going to the South American, Central American, and the whole Carribean (sp?) area down there again. I think that would help out not only the major league level of the Reds once again, but also severely booster our minor leagues as well. That's just my opinion on this though. Imagine if we could have gotten Pujols instead of the Cards. How different the Central would look not only this season, but for the last 5 seasons and for about the next 20.

kheidg-
07-18-2006, 12:18 AM
I would venture to say that even if we are somewhat in contention for this guy, we don't end up with him, that's just the feeling I get with this and also with the track record we have with such players. As I have read in another thread, we need to go back to how we were many moons ago and get our connections back up and going to the South American, Central American, and the whole Carribean (sp?) area down there again. I think that would help out not only the major league level of the Reds once again, but also severely booster our minor leagues as well. That's just my opinion on this though. Imagine if we could have gotten Pujols instead of the Cards. How different the Central would look not only this season, but for the last 5 seasons and for about the next 20.

Pujols was actually drafted in the 13th round in the 1999 Amateur Draft out of Maple Woods Community College. The same draft the Reds took Scott Dunn in the 10th round and Travis Wong in the 13th round.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/b0/47/e3_1_b.JPG

crazybob60
07-18-2006, 01:32 AM
Pujols was actually drafted in the 13th round in the 1999 Amateur Draft out of Maple Woods Community College. The same draft the Reds took Scott Dunn in the 10th round and Travis Wong in the 13th round.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/b0/47/e3_1_b.JPG


Scott Dunn and Travis Wong???? Where are these guys now? Sorry for not knowing this info....they just don't ring a bell to me right now.

kheidg-
07-18-2006, 02:16 AM
Scott Dunn and Travis Wong???? Where are these guys now? Sorry for not knowing this info....they just don't ring a bell to me right now.

Travis Wong never played higher than high A ball and his lifetime minor league average was .237. He only had 400 or so minor league at bats.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/W/Travis-Wong.shtml


Scott Dunn actually made the majors with the Angels in 2004 for a brief 3 inning stint. He was who the Reds sent to the White Sox for the infamous D'Angelo Jimenez in 2003.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/D/Scott-Dunn.shtml

crazybob60
07-18-2006, 02:27 AM
Ok, I remember Scott Dunn now but still don't know the other name, obviously since he didn't make it very far.

buckeyenut
07-18-2006, 06:40 AM
Personally, I believe that a small or midmarket team like CIN cannot afford to take a risk on a kid like this, even though he very well may be the best pitcher on the market. You are probably talking 40-50M (maybe on low end) to get him signed, sealed and delivered and you are talking about a guy you have never seen compete at the major league level.

At the $$ level you will have to pay to get him, the guy has to be a #1 or you have set your franchise back several years. I think it is too big of a risk for a midmarket team, unless the rest of the market is bone dry and you can't get anything done.

I'd love to see it and I would be tremendously impressed by the cajones to get it done. And after his most recent trade, we all know Krivsky has huge cajones. But if it was me, I'd focus on Jason Schmidt (who has plenty of risk on his own, but who you know for a fact can be a #1).

REDREAD
07-18-2006, 08:07 AM
Here is a link to an article that talks about him and the process a team would have to go through to sign him. Basically teams must submit sealed bids to the Japanese team that holds his rights. The highest bidder recieves the right to negotiate with him on an actual contract.

http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/08/mlb_deep_2006_f.html

The Mariners paid Ichiro's team about $11 million just for the rights to negotiate. I'm not sure what would have happened if they hadn't been able to reach an agreement. Does anyone know?

Yes, that process ensures that the Mariners or Yankees are pretty much on the same footing that we are. Didn't the Padres initially win the rights to Irabu? I know he's was a bust, but that shows that any team could win the rights.

If ownership is willing to spend the cash, this guy could potentially be better than anything else on the FA market. And if you win the rights to the guy but can't sign him, you could always trade the rights to another team.

REDREAD
07-18-2006, 08:08 AM
I believe the player then returns to his Japanese team and then the process can start over the following season.

I think you can trade the rights to negotiate to another team. Didn't the Padres end up trading the rights to Irabu, because he insisted on being a Yankee?

REDREAD
07-18-2006, 08:12 AM
Personally, I believe that a small or midmarket team like CIN cannot afford to take a risk on a kid like this, even though he very well may be the best pitcher on the market. You are probably talking 40-50M (maybe on low end) to get him signed, sealed and delivered and you are talking about a guy you have never seen compete at the major league level.
...
. But if it was me, I'd focus on Jason Schmidt (who has plenty of risk on his own, but who you know for a fact can be a #1).

Look at it this way. If the guy takes 12 million/year to sign, that's roughly the combined salary of Wilson and Milton. We signed those guys and are basically still surviving in spite of those two guys giving poor production. Sure, we aren't a powerhouse, but it hasn't totally crippled us.

I think we are all too used to Allen and Lindner running the show (with their 25-40 million dollar payrolls). Baseball revenue has skyrocketed. The Reds' payroll is not that high. They could sign this guy and try to make a big splash if they really wanted to.

savafan
07-18-2006, 12:27 PM
I think you can trade the rights to negotiate to another team. Didn't the Padres end up trading the rights to Irabu, because he insisted on being a Yankee?

Yes, I'd forgotten about that. You are correct.

11larkin11
08-22-2006, 06:18 PM
Man, that first breaking ball just totally dropped out. He can get it up all the way to 150! lol

11larkin11
08-22-2006, 06:26 PM
In the quarterfinals of that year's Koshien national high school baseball tournament, he threw 250 pitches in 17 innings against traditional powerhouse P.L. Gakuen. In stifling heat, Matsuzaka pitched a game for the ages, emerging victorious. The very next day, in the final, he threw a no-hitter--the first ever in a final--to win both the tournament and the admiration of the nation.

cincrazy
08-22-2006, 06:33 PM
And no doubt the BoSox will be in the race, if only to tick the Yankees off and drive the price up. I'd love to see him in a Reds uniform, but it's too much of a risk financially for a mid-market team. Say we give $11 million just to negotiate, then ink him to a long term contract, and two months into the season he blows his arm out. The Yankees can take that kind of hit, while a team like the Reds would be devoured by such a thing. But with that being said, at the very least, our international scouting will have to improve. We can still make a splash in the international community even without getting the big free agents.

Marge'sMullet
08-22-2006, 09:58 PM
Say we give $11 million just to negotiate, then ink him to a long term contract, and two months into the season he blows his arm out. The Yankees can take that kind of hit, while a team like the Reds would be devoured by such a thing. But with that being said, at the very least, our international scouting will have to improve. We can still make a splash in the international community even without getting the big free agents.

I think you have to look at this from a different prospective too. Do the REDS have any Asian born players on their team? NO. Why not? Your losing a valuable market from the east. If the REDS had two or three Asian born players on their team, not only would more Asian Americans watch, buy and support, but you would also get more revenue from other countries in the east.

It's a global market boys. Learn how to market and the money will come pouring in.