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redsfan4445
07-18-2006, 08:53 AM
Per prosportsdaily

"New York Post (scroll down)(registration required): "However, Rodrigo Lopez is very available... The Yanks and, especially, the Mets have been intrigued... The Cardinals, Reds, Padres, Rockies and Diamondbacks are intrigued enough that they are talking to Baltimore about Lopez."

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 08:58 AM
Yuck. I'd rather have Mark Redman, and that's saying something.

princeton
07-18-2006, 09:00 AM
only if Ray Miller comes with him.

redsfan4445
07-18-2006, 09:00 AM
Yuck. I'd rather have Mark Redman, and that's saying something.

He HAS to be better than Mays!!!!!

Krusty
07-18-2006, 09:00 AM
Supposedly Jon Lieber of the Phillies is on the block. He might be a better option than Lopez or Redman.

If anything the starting pitchers that might be available at the trading deadline don't look too enticing.

Dunner44
07-18-2006, 09:04 AM
Supposedly Jon Lieber of the Phillies is on the block. He might be a better option than Lopez or Redman.

If anything the starting pitchers that might be available at the trading deadline don't look too enticing.

Well, there are the two White Sox starters. Unfortunately, they want relief pitching for them, something we don't have to give unless we want to go back to where we were a week ago. Yan is still languishing in his 10 day limbo ;)

smith288
07-18-2006, 09:05 AM
Most. Boring. Trade. Year. EVER.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 09:17 AM
I think the good news for this trade deadline is that most starters that are available are 4/5 starters. There aren't too many aces (if any) available. Why is that a good thing? Well, we don't really need an ace, and I wouldn't want to pay for one (as far as prospects / players go) right now anyway. We need someone to be solid in the 4/5 slot. Sure, we'd all like to have Pedro Martinez, Johan Santana and the like, but that's not going to happen right now anyway. I think if we can just land a guy that would do a solid job of keeping us in games out of the 5 spot in the rotation, this team would be improved significantly.

princeton
07-18-2006, 09:19 AM
Well, we don't really need an ace

which team are you watching?

Highlifeman21
07-18-2006, 09:29 AM
Supposedly Jon Lieber of the Phillies is on the block. He might be a better option than Lopez or Redman.

If anything the starting pitchers that might be available at the trading deadline don't look too enticing.


Supposedly everything here in Philly not named Utley or Howard is on the block. I expect Bobby Abreu to leave town anyday.

If we're trading with the Phils, realistically there are only about 4 guys ( that they might trade) I would want from the Broad Street Babies.... Shane Victorino, Geoff Geary, Brett Myers, Fabio Castro.

I'd go:
Myers
Castro
Geary
Victorino

in that order.

Myers gives us probably a #3, while definitely helps the rotation, while Castro and Geary offer a lefty/righty tandum that are sporting ERAs under 3.40 both for the year. Victorino would be similar to Chris Denorfia, except that Victorino would give us a lead off option while being a 4th OF.

Thoughts?

Newman4
07-18-2006, 09:42 AM
Supposedly everything here in Philly not named Utley or Howard is on the block. I expect Bobby Abreu to leave town anyday.

If we're trading with the Phils, realistically there are only about 4 guys ( that they might trade) I would want from the Broad Street Babies.... Shane Victorino, Geoff Geary, Brett Myers, Fabio Castro.

I'd go:
Myers
Castro
Geary
Victorino

in that order.

Myers gives us probably a #3, while definitely helps the rotation, while Castro and Geary offer a lefty/righty tandum that are sporting ERAs under 3.40 both for the year. Victorino would be similar to Chris Denorfia, except that Victorino would give us a lead off option while being a 4th OF.

Thoughts?

Myers is definitely the prime target if you're dealing with the Phils. What do you think it would take to get him?

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 10:22 AM
which team are you watching?

The one that gives me the feeling that they are at least 2 years away from being serious contenders. For this season, I'm fine with Bronson Arroyo and Aaron Harang leading the rotation. What I wouldn't be fine with is the Reds giving up Homer Bailey or Jay Bruce along with others to acquire a starter like John Smoltz to front the rotation. Sure, he's an ideal target, has plenty of post season experience and can teach your current pitchers, but I just don't feel that all of the ingredients are there for this to be a world championship team.

I guess I should have reworded my original post. We could use an ace pitcher, but I don't think we can afford to acquire one in this market. I think it would set us back for the future.

boognish
07-18-2006, 10:22 AM
Rodrigo Lopez has only had 3 starts in which he has allowed fewer than 4 runs (5 in which he has allowed fewer than 4 earned runs). The 6.44 ERA, .904 OPS allowed, and 1.57 WHIP are UGLY.

"Better than Joe Mays" does not mean "solution to a problem" or "good use of a roster spot." Let's hope the Cardinals waste resources picking him up.

Looks like the board agrees.

princeton
07-18-2006, 10:40 AM
Sure, he's an ideal target, has plenty of post season experience and can teach your current pitchers, but I just don't feel that all of the ingredients are there for this to be a world championship team.

again, which team are you watching?

assuming that one of the relievers steps up as closer (and there's a big if for you), then Smoltz does put the team as close to over the top as you get from a small market team. We'd also trade for a vet bat, and give Votto a chance to play a Miguel Cabrera debut, which certainly doesn't happen for him

I don't see us parting with Bruce/Bailey-- though I no longer am surprised-- but carrying three starters and two sluggers into a postseason really is as good as it's going to get. This is a team that's built more for postseason than for the long grind, but if they get there then it wouldn't be painful to watch.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 11:15 AM
again, which team are you watching?

assuming that one of the relievers steps up as closer (and there's a big if for you), then Smoltz does put the team as close to over the top as you get from a small market team. We'd also trade for a vet bat, and give Votto a chance to play a Miguel Cabrera debut, which certainly doesn't happen for him

I don't see us parting with Bruce/Bailey-- though I no longer am surprised-- but carrying three starters and two sluggers into a postseason really is as good as it's going to get. This is a team that's built more for postseason than for the long grind, but if they get there then it wouldn't be painful to watch.

There are still too many "ifs" for me this year. "If" we get an ace pitcher we'd go into the post season with say, Smoltz, Arroyo, and Harang, which is nice for sure. What do we have to give up to get Smoltz? How far does that set us back for the future? Assuming we get him and don't have to give up Bailey or Bruce, how far are we going to go with Eddie Guardado as our closer? Is our defense tight enough? Is our offense now consistent enough? After you posted what you did, it made me realize how right you were about how this team is built more for a short series than the long haul, but even after acquiring an ace pitcher, I'm not so sure we have the other pieces to be a world series contender. It would definately be a risk. And I'm not so sure that risk wouldn't involve us giving up several key pieces for our future. That's what I'm afraid of gambling on.

5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM
07-18-2006, 11:22 AM
which team are you watching?
i think he's watching the reds and the nice helping of quality starts we have had this year, who are you watching?

princeton
07-18-2006, 11:29 AM
There are still too many "ifs" for me this year.

acquiring a top starter is the last if. After that, the rest is easy. It's just up to the players, health, luck. The bench will help a playoff run-- back-end quantity and composition is good even though front-end quality is not

at the beginning of the year, I said that the Reds still needed two starters, closer plus top setup man, much better middle defense, but could spare a lot of offense. Other than the second starter, they've addressed everything, although they're going with quantity in the 'pen and they're going with a rangier RFer while leaving Jr in situ. I like the plan.

I assume that we don't get a Smoltz, and drop out of sight by mid-August. But it's interesting to think about, and to know that we have a GM that could surprise instead of act predictable.

Highlifeman21
07-18-2006, 11:34 AM
Myers is definitely the prime target if you're dealing with the Phils. What do you think it would take to get him?

After the alleged wife beating incident in Boston, Myers is quickly wearing out his welcome in Philly. While the owner(s) and front office have made token press releases/statements "supporting" Myers, he has been and will continue to be a distraction in the City of Brotherly Love.

As for a price, taking a quick glance at our organization, I would think we'd need to send them probably at least 2 things from the following list:

Belisle
Coutlangus
Dumatrait
Germano
Gosling
Standridge
Hall
Vazquez
Janish

And probably 1 from the following list:
Wood
Bruce


This is vastly oversimplifying the value of the trade, but I felt it was the easiest way to illustrate the price.

I would probably dangle Bruce, Standridge, and Coutlangus and see if they bite.

princeton
07-18-2006, 11:37 AM
make Mike Brown Reds GM for the day, and we'd have Myers

Ga_Red
07-18-2006, 11:47 AM
2/09/07

Redsnake
07-18-2006, 11:48 AM
After the alleged wife beating incident in Boston, Myers is quickly wearing out his welcome in Philly. While the owner(s) and front office have made token press releases/statements "supporting" Myers, he has been and will continue to be a distraction in the City of Brotherly Love.

As for a price, taking a quick glance at our organization, I would think we'd need to send them probably at least 2 things from the following list:

Belisle
Coutlangus
Dumatrait
Germano
Gosling
Standridge
Hall
Vazquez
Janish

And probably 1 from the following list:
Wood
Bruce


This is vastly oversimplifying the value of the trade, but I felt it was the easiest way to illustrate the price.

I would probably dangle Bruce, Standridge, and Coutlangus and see if they bite.


I don't think I would offer Bruce at all!!

OnBaseMachine
07-18-2006, 11:53 AM
I would give Seattle a call and ask about Gil Meche, though they probably think they are still in contention for the AL West. Hopefully they realize they are the fourth best team in that division and make Meche available.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 11:54 AM
After the alleged wife beating incident in Boston, Myers is quickly wearing out his welcome in Philly. While the owner(s) and front office have made token press releases/statements "supporting" Myers, he has been and will continue to be a distraction in the City of Brotherly Love.

As for a price, taking a quick glance at our organization, I would think we'd need to send them probably at least 2 things from the following list:

Belisle
Coutlangus
Dumatrait
Germano
Gosling
Standridge
Hall
Vazquez
Janish

And probably 1 from the following list:
Wood
Bruce


This is vastly oversimplifying the value of the trade, but I felt it was the easiest way to illustrate the price.

I would probably dangle Bruce, Standridge, and Coutlangus and see if they bite.

I'd be willing to part with 4 from the top list, but none from the bottom of that list. If this was a known top of the line pitcher with no off field issues, I may part with Wood, not Bruce under most any circumstance. I think there are just too many question marks with Myers to give up a Wood or a Bruce in a trade for him.

gm
07-18-2006, 12:05 PM
...the Reds still needed two starters, closer plus top setup man, much better middle defense, but could spare a lot of offense.

I assume that we don't get a Smoltz, and drop out of sight by mid-August...

I suspect to get into the Smoltz discussion with the ATL the name "Dunn" would be required. That would involve dealing with a WC rival. Tough call for both GMs

markymark69
07-18-2006, 12:36 PM
For all of those asking about Smoltz, he won't even available, because you can bet with this hot streak the Braves are on, they consider themselves in the hunt for the wild card.

They need Smoltz to have a shot, hence he won't be available, IMO.

However, if the Braves have a bad week and half leading up to the trading deadline, his status could change, but I doubt Smoltz will be wearing another uniform come August 1.

Redsnake
07-18-2006, 12:48 PM
R. Lopez numbers the Last 3 years
Team G GS W L SV CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA
2004 BAL 37 23 14 9 0 1 1 170.2 164 71 68 21 54 121 3.59 1.28 .252
2005 BAL 35 35 15 12 0 0 0 209.1 232 126 114 28 63 118 4.90 1.41 .276
2006 BAL 20 20 6 10 0 0 0 117.1 148 89 84 21 36 71 6.44 1.57 .305


This years is pitching very poorly. But he was a 15 game winner last year and the year before that he won 14 games and had a in the mid 3's. I think I would take a chance on him if the price is right.

4 things to consider:
1) He is a better option than Mays, Claussen
2) Could come cheap
3) Switching leagues will lower his ERA and many batters in NL hasn't seen him
4) And most importantly, put a player from a losing team to a contender could put a fire under his butt. Example: "Everyday Eddie"

Falls City Beer
07-18-2006, 12:52 PM
Why Lopez? We've already got Milton.

savafan
07-18-2006, 12:53 PM
If we're trading with the Phils, realistically there are only about 4 guys ( that they might trade) I would want from the Broad Street Babies.... Shane Victorino, Geoff Geary, Brett Myers, Fabio Castro.



I'd love to have a guy named Fabio Castro.

Highlifeman21
07-18-2006, 01:31 PM
I'd be willing to part with 4 from the top list, but none from the bottom of that list. If this was a known top of the line pitcher with no off field issues, I may part with Wood, not Bruce under most any circumstance. I think there are just too many question marks with Myers to give up a Wood or a Bruce in a trade for him.


I don't think I would offer Bruce at all!!

Bruce right now is the heir to an OF spot when Griffey's done? Long term, we have Denorfia, Dunn, Wise and Bruce as an OF situation post-Griffey? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Bruce seems to be expendible, to me at least. I would definitely take some rotation help over a AA OF right now. Myers still has age on his side. Bruce vs. Myers is a question of upside vs. 5 year stop gap.

As for giving up from the top of the list, I just can't imagine that we'd be able to part with 4 of : Belisle, Coutlangus, Dumatrait, Germano, Gosling, Standridge, Hall, Vazquez, Janish ; and get back Brett Myers. Wishful thinking if we could.

red-in-la
07-18-2006, 01:55 PM
The one that gives me the feeling that they are at least 2 years away from being serious contenders.

Actually, if stars do really align.....I am thinking next year...IMHO.

Some big time things have to happen.

1. Homer Bailey has to pull a Verlander-esque promotion to the big leagues.....it would help if he got some September experince this year.

2. Denorfia has to be the real mcoy.

3. LaRue has to find his old box of bats (from last year).

4. Every Day and Easy E have to have one more good year in them.

5. EdwinE has to find 1B with his throws.

6. The Reds need to move JR to 1B and Phillips to SS.

If 2008 is really the year, and it might well be, I worry a bit about the contract status of Harang, Dunn and Arroyo.

Redsnake
07-18-2006, 02:27 PM
Bruce right now is the heir to an OF spot when Griffey's done? Long term, we have Denorfia, Dunn, Wise and Bruce as an OF situation post-Griffey? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Bruce seems to be expendible, to me at least. I would definitely take some rotation help over a AA OF right now. Myers still has age on his side. Bruce vs. Myers is a question of upside vs. 5 year stop gap.

As for giving up from the top of the list, I just can't imagine that we'd be able to part with 4 of : Belisle, Coutlangus, Dumatrait, Germano, Gosling, Standridge, Hall, Vazquez, Janish ; and get back Brett Myers. Wishful thinking if we could.

Don't get me wrong I like Myers, but are you serious?? You really think Wise is the future. He had a nice spring, I like Denorfia on a 2 years bases. But they are not the future. And too give up the #11 prospect in all of the minors is ridicules.

Ravenlord
07-18-2006, 02:32 PM
i'd give them Claussen for Lopez. or Milton for Lopez. maybe Weathers and Milton while keeping a bit more of Milton's contract.

but if i have to deal for Lopez, two of Chris Britton, Brandon Fahey, Radhames Liz (if he's eligable), Jeff Moore, and Kurt Birkins...

but mostly Baltimore's a bad fit for most things involving the Reds.

Highlifeman21
07-18-2006, 03:25 PM
Don't get me wrong I like Myers, but are you serious?? You really think Wise is the future. He had a nice spring, I like Denorfia on a 2 years bases. But they are not the future. And too give up the #11 prospect in all of the minors is ridicules.

Why shouldn't Wise be in the future? He's only 28 right now. He should have minimum 4 more productive years for this club.

Denorfia is 26. He should have at least 6 more productive years for this club. Post-Griffey, he should be the everyday CF. He should be the everyday CF now, but that's a different argument for a different thread...

Dunn is 27 in november. He should be a Red for another decade. We know what he can do for us.

While Jay Bruce might be the #11 prospect in all of the minors, he's a number on a board right now. He's playing in Dayton right now as a 19 year old in A ball. That puts him on a great time table to step in when Griffey hangs em up probably by 2008 or 2009, but if we can address a solid rotation concern in the meantime, I think we should realistically consider that option.

Am I throwing Bruce under the bus, packing his bags and shipping him out? Surely not. I would much rather us trade Homer Bailey for some pitching that is more proven and ready than to keep a kid in AA who essentially has 1 pitch. Realistically, our 3 biggest trading chips in the minors are Bailey, Bruce and Wood, and I honestly think the Phillies would laugh at us if we offered Homer Bailey. They have pitching, and they don't need to deal with the likes of Homer Bailey.

I'm not giving up on Jay Bruce. I just think that we should consider adding quality starting pitching at the sacrifice of a 19 year old in A ball, or at the very least a 20 year old named Bailey in AA.

I'm not saying Brett Myers is a savior by any means, but at gonna be 26 at the end of the season, he sure would look nice in a Reds uniform for the next 6+ years.

Red Leader
07-18-2006, 03:32 PM
I'd still rather give up a B.J. Syzmanski along with Justin Germano or something like that to get Gavin Floyd rather than give up the farm for a headcase like Brett Myers. That's a player that can cost a GM his job if he doens't make the right deal and things turn sour.

Danny Serafini
07-18-2006, 04:04 PM
Why shouldn't Wise be in the future?

Simple, he's just not very good. A 28 year old career .197 hitter doesn't have much of a future. Maybe he turns in a decent season sometime as a serviceable 5th OF, but that's really all the higher his ceiling goes.

Redsnake
07-18-2006, 04:21 PM
Why shouldn't Wise be in the future? He's only 28 right now. He should have minimum 4 more productive years for this club.

Denorfia is 26. He should have at least 6 more productive years for this club. Post-Griffey, he should be the everyday CF. He should be the everyday CF now, but that's a different argument for a different thread...

Dunn is 27 in november. He should be a Red for another decade. We know what he can do for us.

While Jay Bruce might be the #11 prospect in all of the minors, he's a number on a board right now. He's playing in Dayton right now as a 19 year old in A ball. That puts him on a great time table to step in when Griffey hangs em up probably by 2008 or 2009, but if we can address a solid rotation concern in the meantime, I think we should realistically consider that option.

Am I throwing Bruce under the bus, packing his bags and shipping him out? Surely not. I would much rather us trade Homer Bailey for some pitching that is more proven and ready than to keep a kid in AA who essentially has 1 pitch. Realistically, our 3 biggest trading chips in the minors are Bailey, Bruce and Wood, and I honestly think the Phillies would laugh at us if we offered Homer Bailey. They have pitching, and they don't need to deal with the likes of Homer Bailey.

I'm not giving up on Jay Bruce. I just think that we should consider adding quality starting pitching at the sacrifice of a 19 year old in A ball, or at the very least a 20 year old named Bailey in AA.

I'm not saying Brett Myers is a savior by any means, but at gonna be 26 at the end of the season, he sure would look nice in a Reds uniform for the next 6+ years.

Danny Serafini, Red Leader and myself seem to be on the same page.

I would go as far as saying 90% of the fans on this board would rather keep Jay Bruce.
If the Reds give up Bruce for a questionable character guy in Myers and justify that by thinking Wise is the future, the Reds fan would riot the streets!!!

Ravenlord
07-18-2006, 04:25 PM
DeWayne Wise career totals
Split AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Minor 2947 253 305 401 706
Major 296 203 243 372 615

why would you want to call Wise the future? i'm one of the biggest Wise supporters on the board, but i wouldn't neccessarily even risk him even being my fourth outfielder. he's Reggie Taylor with better speed and an actual ability to play defense.

Highlifeman21
07-18-2006, 06:32 PM
DeWayne Wise career totals
Split AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Minor 2947 253 305 401 706
Major 296 203 243 372 615

why would you want to call Wise the future? i'm one of the biggest Wise supporters on the board, but i wouldn't neccessarily even risk him even being my fourth outfielder. he's Reggie Taylor with better speed and an actual ability to play defense.

That right there is enough for me to maybe make him an everyday CF or an everyday LF. Speed and good defense can actually help this team win. I know that's a foreign concept, but it seemed to work pretty well for the BRM in the 70s.

I'm not trying to readily get rid of Bruce by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying that he's a bargaining chip, and you should at least consider the trade if he's involved. No one that's a Reds prospect should be deemed "untouchable". Everyone has a price/value.

Patrick Bateman
07-18-2006, 07:25 PM
That right there is enough for me to maybe make him an everyday CF or an everyday LF. Speed and good defense can actually help this team win. I know that's a foreign concept, but it seemed to work pretty well for the BRM in the 70s.

I'm not trying to readily get rid of Bruce by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying that he's a bargaining chip, and you should at least consider the trade if he's involved. No one that's a Reds prospect should be deemed "untouchable". Everyone has a price/value.

If somehow Griffey does get bumped from CF we have much better options than Wise in CF. Freel and Denorfia to name 2.

Wise is an offensive black hole. He has no ability to get on base and has little power. His speed and fielding makes him a nice 4/5th OF'der for ph situations and OF substitutions for Griffey late in the game. I think giving him any kind of meaningful role would be very harmful.

keeganbrick
07-18-2006, 07:47 PM
Simple, he's just not very good. A 28 year old career .197 hitter doesn't have much of a future. Maybe he turns in a decent season sometime as a serviceable 5th OF, but that's really all the higher his ceiling goes.
Agreed.

Crash Davis
07-18-2006, 08:00 PM
make Mike Brown Reds GM for the day, and we'd have Myers

had me, but you lost me.

I can't decipher this one.

JohhnyBench1001
07-18-2006, 08:32 PM
Mike Brown has a tendancy to love guys with off the field problems..........hence the Bengals training camp being nicknamed "little Pen"

Crash Davis
07-18-2006, 08:46 PM
Mike Brown has a tendancy to love guys with off the field problems..........hence the Bengals training camp being nicknamed "little Pen"

Oops, that makes sense...went right over my head. I was thinking of Brett Myers the potential #1 starter. I neglected to consider Brett Myers the wifebeater/potential off-field troublemaker.

Ravenlord
07-19-2006, 12:11 AM
Speed and good defense can actually help this team win. I know that's a foreign concept, but it seemed to work pretty well for the BRM in the 70s.you're conveniently foregetting that the Big Red Machine was also the most dominating offensive force around at the time. if memory serve the '75 team had more than 250 runs above the NL average.

Ravenlord
07-19-2006, 12:22 AM
you're conveniently foregetting that the Big Red Machine was also the most dominating offensive force around at the time. if memory serve the '75 team had more than 250 runs above the NL average.
173 runs above NL average and 105 runs above the second place team.