Keith Law savaged us in his ESPN chat today

[flynn78]

I'm not buying what he says, but I have to say I agree we overpaid. I have cooled off about it and I'm kind of happy about the trade now. He does not seem as supportive.

Matt (Arlington, VA): I was glad to see someone finally write something positive about the Red's aquisition's from the Nats. As a Reds fan, I think we had enough depth to make that trade. However, do you think they have one more move left in them (maybe one more starting pitcher) or are they finished?

Keith Law: (12:58 PM ET ) Well, it wasn't me - I thought that was a terrible deal for the Reds, and I have yet to find one MLB exec at any level who thought it was less than a steal for Washington. I think Krivsky's going to be aggressive and I expect him to try to acquire another arm, but his cupboard is just about bare, especially if Homer Bailey is untouchable.

nick (cincy, OH): Do you believe the reds will be a playoff team this year?

Keith Law: (1:06 PM ET ) No. I think their margin for error was small, and losing 1-3 wins in last week's deal will leave them on the outside.

Bobby (Cincinnati,OH): Do you think the reds will shop Adam Dunn to try and get some more pitching?

Keith Law: (1:09 PM ET ) I don't think they can, not after dealing Kearns and Lopez, unless it was a deal that got them a pretty good bat AND an arm in return - and that's not happening.

JJ (Iowa): Is it possible that every MLB exec., who has judged the Reds-Nats deal a steal, is wrong? The Reds lost the bigger names but Kearns is injury prone and unfulfilled potential personified with a poor work ethic. Lopez is an error machine with a lot of talent but Brandon Phillips can play SS and both were due huge raises down the road.

Keith Law: (1:15 PM ET ) It's possible that all those execs are wrong ... but it's really unlikely in this case. Kearns has been healthy all year, and you really have no idea about his work ethic at all. That's one thing that really bugs me - when people with no contact with teams or players try to impute personality traits (especially negative ones, like a poor work ethic) to specific players. You just don't know. Frankly, even when you're in a game, it's hard to adequately evaluate the makeup of a player on another team. You're heavily dependent on hearsay.

Don't Wimp Out (Cincy): Follow up on why you dislike the Reds-Nats trade. Doesn't team needs come before talent if you are in a playoff race?

Keith Law: (1:44 PM ET ) Yes, absolutely. What I dislike about the deal is the magnitude of the difference between the talent surrendered and the talent received by CIN. But yes, to your general point, trading $1.10 of offense for $1 of pitching is sensible when you're contending and you have too much O and not enough P.

[Joseph]

I've never heard of Keith Law, so why should his opinion matter any more than mine?

[CincyReds2003]

Who is Keith Law? Never heard of him until today, so as most naysayers have criticizied the trade because we didn't get a big name, I'm not going to take Keith seriously since I've never heard of him.

[Brian]

It's popular to hate the trade and that's the safe call, why take a risk and call it a good deal for the Reds? For the record, I think it will end up being a good deal for the Reds in the short term at least.

Anyway, one thing that sticks out. He thinks the Reds lose 1-3 wins by giving up FeLo and Kearns. This guy is a complete idiot and proves it with that statement. The Reds lost 12+ games due to crappy pen performance in the first half. If these three new guys can cut that down, then it's a net gain. I guess when you want to be against something though, it's harder to use a more global perspective. Bah...

[KYRed]

He works for Scouts, Inc. but just started at ESPN a few months ago. While he has more contacts than most here on the board, his word isn't gospel despite what he may think.

[westofyou]

Keith used to write for BP, then worked for the Blue Jays.

That said, what does Keith know about Kearns and Lopez's off field and training existance?

[dabvu2498]

I've never heard of Keith Law, so why should his opinion matter any more than mine?

Keith Law is the senior baseball analyst for Scouts Inc. Before joining ESPN, Law served as special assistant to the general manager of the Toronto Blue Jays and was a writer for Baseball Prospectus.

He might know something we don't.

[CincyReds2003]

He might know something we don't.


Sorry, I'll take Team Clark's word and any other RedsZone Member's insight over Keith Law's opinion.

[dabvu2498]

Sorry, I'll take Team Clark's word and any other RedsZone Member's insight over Keith Law's opinion.
I wouldn't go that far!!! ;)

[Krusty]

Everyone hated the Reds-Astros trade back in 1971 and we saw how it turned out. Three years from now let's judge the deal. How the heck can you say it is a bad deal when the Reds have gone 4-0 since the deal?

[CincyReds2003]

I wouldn't go that far!!! ;)

Okay...most RedsZone members..:D

[OldXOhio]

Keith Law: and you really have no idea about his work ethic at all. That's one thing that really bugs me - when people with no contact with teams or players try to impute personality traits (especially negative ones, like a poor work ethic) to specific players. You just don't know. Frankly, even when you're in a game, it's hard to adequately evaluate the makeup of a player on another team. You're heavily dependent on hearsay.


As are you Keith for assuming the person asking the question is merely imputing a negative trait on Kearns. Had he read Redszone.....

[Matt700wlw]

Buster Olney said last night on Baseball Tonight (I'm paraphrasing), that the Reds have been ripped for this trade, because people think they gave up more than they should have (Steve Phillips absolutely lambasted this team for it...most lobsided trade he's ever seen). However, pretty much all of baseball is looking for relief pitching. Reds got 2 relief pitchers, who a lot of people in baseball think are quality relievers. Wayne Krivsky said to him that he knew, without bullpen help, this team wasn't going to win anything.... They're going to hang around this thing.


You know, as much as usually don't agree with Buster.....he's pretty much the only one so far who's looked at this correctly.

[OldXOhio]

Buster Olney said last night on Baseball Tonight (I'm paraphrasing), that the Reds have been ripped for this trade, because people think they gave up more than they should have (Steve Phillips absolutely lambasted this team for it...most lobsided trade he's ever seen). However, pretty much all of baseball is looking for relief pitching. Reds got 2 relief pitchers, who a lot of people in baseball think are quality relievers. Wayne Krivsky said to him that he knew, without bullpen help, this team wasn't going to win anything.... They're going to hang around this thing.


You know, as much as usually don't agree with Buster.....he's pretty much the only one so far who's looked at this correctly.

I saw one of the headlines on ESPN.com today was Olney's column "Reds did well in acquiring bullpen help." Did he shift gears on this one?

[dabvu2498]

I saw one of the headlines on ESPN.com today was Olney's column "Reds did well in acquiring bullpen help." Did he shift gears on this one?
Already discussed: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48743

[Matt700wlw]

I saw one of the headlines on ESPN.com today was Olney's column "Reds did well in acquiring bullpen help." Did he shift gears on this one?

Don't know, but I also hears Steve Phillips say a couple weeks ago that if the Reds got bullpen help, they could hang around.



Not sure if we should take much of what Steve Phillips says, he wasn't exactly a good GM...and to me, he seems to change his view on things like I change underwear.

[flyer85]

You know, as much as usually don't agree with Buster.....he's pretty much the only one so far who's looked at this correctly.Generally the correct way to use Buster is as a reverse barometer.

[NJReds]

Generally the correct way to use Buster is as a reverse barometer.

I thought Phillips was the reverse barometer. I can't keep track.

[flyer85]

I thought Phillips was the reverse barometer. I can't keep track.Phillips, who's he? :laugh:

I never watch BBTN since it turned into the Yanks/Red Sox highlight show in the past year.

[smith288]

Keith's BP email addy no longer works but I tried this

Keith.Law@espn.com since Peter Gammons is Peter.Gammons@Espn.com

No return to sender yet.

[ChatterRed]

Kearns and Lopez just might propel the Nationals into the pennant race!

Okay.........maybe not. But by the way every exec and media expert talks, you'd think so.

Kearns is an average outfielder. Lopez is a slightly better than average shortstop. But honestly, some of our spot duty guys are playing better than Kearns and Lopez were........such as Hatteberg, Aurellia, Ross, Freel, Castro............I have no doubt that we can replace those two. We have more outfielders and shortstops than anything. Castro, Clayton, Aurellia, and Phillips can all play SS. Denorfia deserved his chance.

We were ONE FRICKIN' GAME OVER .500 BEFORE THE TRADE........yet everyone in the majority of lambasting the Reds for the trade, think the Reds overpaid. Hmmmm. I still don't get it.

I guess keeping Lopez and Kearns would have kept us atleast ONE GAME OVER .500 for the rest of the season. Nice. That would get us into the playoffs. (sarcasm)

[flynn78]

I just ran into this while I was on ESPN today. Law seems like all the other talking heads. It is all a guess anyway. If FeLo and Austin do nothing for the Nats then it will be a great trade in their eyes and vice versa. If it helps both teams, I think we win because hopefully it helps us to the playoffs. Plus I have never been a big win share stat guy like he mentions in the column. It makes sense and is in vogue, but I think the gut is where it is at. We finally have a guy in the front office that has some guts and for that I am thankful. I'm more of a gut feeling guy with my baseball. I have to say I think we gave up a lot, but that we got the relievers we need to make this a long term winning club rather than a one year wonder.

[chicoruiz]

If you're a Bengals fan as well as a Reds fan, this all has to remind you of the drafting of Levi Jones and the beating the Bengals took from the "experts" who feel qualified to issue a same-day draft "grade". Maybe they're right and maybe they're wrong; if it's all the same to them I suggest we play the games and find out.

As my old man used to say, "an 'ex' is a has-been and a 'spurt' is just a drip under pressure"...

[smith288]

Keith's BP email addy no longer works but I tried this

Keith.Law@espn.com since Peter Gammons is Peter.Gammons@Espn.com

No return to sender yet.
Dang...return to sender.

[IowaRed]

I was the sender of that question-JJ in Iowa. I put in the "poor work ethic" as kind of an afterthought, not to impune Kearns but more to elude to other issues that may have led the Reds to this trade. It could have been worded better. I did follow up with another message describing the source (TC) and offering him a link to where I found the information, while stating it wasn't just my opinion from seeing him on TV and that I'm a big Kearns fan. No response but I was more bothered by him not really discussing the trade, the $$, Kearns career high of 112 games played in a season and the factors that led to Krivsky pulling the trigger and what he and everybody else thought was specifically wrong with the trade.

[Johnny Footstool]

Kearns and Lopez just might propel the Nationals into the pennant race!

Okay.........maybe not. But by the way every exec and media expert talks, you'd think so.

Kearns is an average outfielder. Lopez is a slightly better than average shortstop. But honestly, some of our spot duty guys are playing better than Kearns and Lopez were........such as Hatteberg, Aurellia, Ross, Freel, Castro............I have no doubt that we can replace those two. We have more outfielders and shortstops than anything. Castro, Clayton, Aurellia, and Phillips can all play SS. Denorfia deserved his chance.

We were ONE FRICKIN' GAME OVER .500 BEFORE THE TRADE........yet everyone in the majority of lambasting the Reds for the trade, think the Reds overpaid. Hmmmm. I still don't get it.

I guess keeping Lopez and Kearns would have kept us atleast ONE GAME OVER .500 for the rest of the season. Nice. That would get us into the playoffs. (sarcasm)

Repeating again: Kearns and Lopez were in the top 10 in OPS at their respective positions at the time of the trade. Kearns was ranked 28 out of all qualifying outfielders in OPS. They were both well above average. They would have been upgrades for about 20 major league teams.

[RBA]

We interrupt this Kearns/Lopez trade discussion to bring you:

Kearns/Lopez Trade Fact:

This is the 213th RedsZone thread about the Lopez/Kearns trade.

Please continue your thread......


Justing kidding of course. I don't mean to uspet anyone by this post.

[Johnny Footstool]

A baseball journalist savages the deal, and RedsZoners chime in unison "What does he know?"

Another journalist takes the opposite tack (probably because he just wants to make an impression as a contrarian), and he's taking the "correct" view.

Funny how that works.

[flyer85]

Law was a "Special Assistant to the GM" in Toronto for 4 years. Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

[NJReds]

Law was a "Special Assistant to the GM" in Toronto for 4 years. Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

Do you want cream or sugar with that...;)

[ochre]

Law was a "Special Assistant to the GM" in Toronto for 4 years. Take it for whatever it is worth to you.
bah that's the American League. He probably doesn't even know who Lopez is.

[flyer85]

bah that's the American League. He probably doesn't even know who Lopez is.Maybe he was the guy that suggested "We should keep that Lopez, he's gooooood".

[Caveat Emperor]

Law was a "Special Assistant to the GM" in Toronto for 4 years. Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

I wonder how he got his job with ESPN...

Keith: I've spent the last 4 years as a special assistant to the GM for the Blue Jays organ-

ESPN: Who?

Keith: The Blue Jays (silence) ...you know, the Toronto Blue Jays?

ESPN: Not following you...

Keith: The Toronto Blue Jays...?

ESPN: Are they like an independent league hockey team or something? I thought you were applying as a baseball writer?

Keith: No, the Toronto Blue Jays baseball team. In the AL East?

ESPN: (laughter) Wow, you've got a lot to learn about baseball if you think there's a team in the AL East from Toronto. Jeeze.

Keith: (confused stare)

ESPN: Look, we've already got people covering both of the two teams in the AL East, maybe try over at SI.com. Leave your card, though, and we'll call you if we need any extra help when the Sox and Yankees meet in the playoffs.

[REDREAD]

I've never heard of Keith Law, so why should his opinion matter any more than mine?

I remember when he used to post on rec.sports.baseball newsgroup back in the early 90's (maybe it was the late 80's). Somehow he got a job as a baseball writer since then.

[KoryMac5]

I think people will have a different opinion of the trade after the series with the Mets if the Reds win and the bullpen does well. Phillips, Law, Gammons etc are getting paid to be outspoken. Ratings are what matters most to ESPN, not properly analyzing a trade.

[registerthis]

Kearns has been healthy all year, and you really have no idea about his work ethic at all. That's one thing that really bugs me - when people with no contact with teams or players try to impute personality traits (especially negative ones, like a poor work ethic) to specific players.

Perhaps TeamClark should give Mr. Law a phone call?

[registerthis]

Ratings are what matters most to ESPN, not properly analyzing a trade.

And how, exactly, are they driving up their ratings and "being controversial" by saying the Reds got the bad end of this deal? Would their ratings tank if they said it was a good trade for both teams, or that Washington got fleeced?

[Mario-Rijo]

Originally posted by IowaRed I was the sender of that question-JJ in Iowa. I put in the "poor work ethic" as kind of an afterthought, not to impune Kearns but more to elude to other issues that may have led the Reds to this trade. It could have been worded better. I did follow up with another message describing the source (TC) and offering him a link to where I found the information, while stating it wasn't just my opinion from seeing him on TV and that I'm a big Kearns fan. No response but I was more bothered by him not really discussing the trade, the $$, Kearns career high of 112 games played in a season and the factors that led to Krivsky pulling the trigger and what he and everybody else thought was specifically wrong with the trade.

Thanks Iowa for spilling the beans on TC. Not very cool! Considering he isn't allowed to be giving this kind of info to us. No wonder we cannot continue too get inside scoops on things because we all ruin it ourselves. Sorry to rag on you but I thought everyone knew not to discuss this as if we actually heard it from an inside source!

[keeganbrick]

bah that's the American League. He probably doesn't even know who Lopez is.
Did you know that the Blue Jays drafted Lopez?

[Puffy]

Did you know that the Blue Jays drafted Lopez?

He knows - and that was the joke.

[ochre]

Did you know that the Blue Jays drafted Lopez?
why, yes I did.

twas but a flippant attempt at a small amount of sarcasm.

[keeganbrick]

why, yes I did.

twas but a flippant attempt at a small amount of sarcasm.
I never saw it coming, :help:

[ochre]

I never saw it coming, :help:
no worries :)

[Jr's Boy]

Grain of salt.These are the same nuts who said the Reds had NO chance this year and would be cellar dwellers.How soon they forget their ''expert predictions''.

[MaineRed]

Thanks Iowa for spilling the beans on TC. Not very cool! Considering he isn't allowed to be giving this kind of info to us. No wonder we cannot continue too get inside scoops on things because we all ruin it ourselves. Sorry to rag on you but I thought everyone knew not to discuss this as if we actually heard it from an inside source!

This is an open forum on the internet. Who are we not supposed to be discussing this with?

If the guy didn't want people to know who he was, he wouldn't be so free to pass out the info and share who he is on the INTERNET.

There are new posters who join this board daily. None of them know who this TC guy is. And most don't know there is some big secret we are supposed to be keeping about him. Perhaps his post should come with a disclaimer.

If doing something he is not supposed to be doing is my problem, I wasn't aware of it.

And I'm just curious, why does the word of a D-Rays scout and Pirates bullpen catcher carry more weight than the word of a former assistant to the Blue Jays GM?

[Mario-Rijo]

This is an open forum on the internet. Who are we not supposed to be discussing this with?

If the guy didn't want people to know who he was, he wouldn't be so free to pass out the info and share who he is on the INTERNET.

There are new posters who join this board daily. None of them know who this TC guy is. And most don't know there is some big secret we are supposed to be keeping about him. Perhaps his post should come with a disclaimer.

If doing something he is not supposed to be doing is my problem, I wasn't aware of it.

And I'm just curious, why does the word of a D-Rays scout and Pirates bullpen catcher carry more weight than the word of a former assistant to the Blue Jays GM?

Classy approach there Maine!!! :thumbdown

[REDREAD]

And I'm just curious, why does the word of a D-Rays scout and Pirates bullpen catcher carry more weight than the word of a former assistant to the Blue Jays GM?

I did some checking. As I understand it, Law was a stats guy for the Blue Jays for awhile. The thought process was that the Blue Jays were trying to evaluate some stat based evaluations of players. I really don't want to say any more about the guy, because it was largely based on what I read on the internet, and I'm not sure if it's reliable. I was just curious, because I remember reading the guy's posts on newsgroups a long time ago.

[smith288]

And I'm just curious, why does the word of a D-Rays scout and Pirates bullpen catcher carry more weight than the word of a former assistant to the Blue Jays GM?

Former player. Close with many organizations through personal relationships.

Law is an elitist twerp from my readings of him. I looked up some of his stuff and it seems all he does is piss people off.

[TeamBoone]

Keith used to write for BP, then worked for the Blue Jays.

That said, what does Keith know about Kearns and Lopez's off field and training existance?

He didn't say he knew ANYTHING about it. His point was that most people don't know, and yet they use words like "poor work ethic" to describe a player.

I agree with him on that particular point.