RUMOR: Soriano, MacDougal to White Sox

[HotCorner]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2528494



The White Sox are "extremely close" to trading for Nationals outfielder Alfonso Soriano, a source close to the situation told ESPN The Magazine's Tim Kurkjian. The Nationals have great interest in pitcher Brandon McCarthy.

The White Sox, said the source, also are close to acquiring pitcher Mike MacDougal from the Royals in exchange for minor league pitcher Tyler Lumsden.

Soriano joined Washington last offseason in a trade from Texas, and the Nationals shifted him from second base to left field. Soriano is batting .288 with 31 homers, 62 RBI and 25 steals.

The slugger is scheduled to become a free agent at the end of the season.

[Falls City Beer]

If the Nationals get McCarthy for Soriano, then Bowden really has become a genius again.

[flyer85]

I wonder what everyday player the ChiSox will have to trade for McDougal?

[pedro]

If the Nationals get McCarthy for Soriano, then Bowden really has become a genius again.


what makes mcarthy so much better than majewski or Bray? He's given up 8 hr's in 50 innings.

[Johnny Footstool]

MacDougal for a minor league pitcher.

[flyer85]

what makes mcarthy so much better than majewski or Bray? He's given up 8 hr's in 50 innings.potential starter, although I am not nearly as high on McCarthy as others. He has a bit of a high effort funky delivery which leaves me with a lot of questions.

[Falls City Beer]

what makes mcarthy so much better than majewski or Bray? He's given up 8 hr's in 50 innings.

Stuff. Ceiling. Obviously, there are no guarantees, but McCarthy could close one day; neither Majewski nor Bray is good enough to do that.

[pedro]

anyone know what's been wrong with macdougal? he's only picthed 4 innings this year.

[pedro]

Stuff. Ceiling. Obviously, there are no guarantees, but McCarthy could close one day; neither Majewski nor Bray is good enough to do that.


haven't seen him pitch myself but the dude gives up HR's at a Miltonesque rate. (21 in 117 innings)

we don't need anymore of that IMO.

[Heath]

Stuff. Ceiling. Obviously, there are no guarantees, but McCarthy could close one day; neither Majewski nor Bray is good enough to do that.


ah, the potential crap again.

Same stuff spewed when WMP got traded. Look how that turned out.

[Jpup]

anyone know what's been wrong with macdougal? he's only picthed 4 innings this year.

he just came back the other night. He looked pretty good, except for the fact that his hat kept falling off.

[Ltlabner]

I wonder what everyday player the ChiSox will have to trade for McDougal?

But you gloss over this..." The White Sox are "extremely close" to trading for Nationals outfielder Alfonso Soriano, a source close to the situation told ESPN The Magazine's Tim Kurkjian." An proven everyday player for a pitcher with 4+ ERA, has given up 46hits in 50 innings and is only in his second year (unproven).

[flyer85]

MacDougal for a minor league pitcher.I though relievers were high priced? Now we will have seen two decent relievers(MacDougal and Wickman) go for very little (at least certainly a lot less than what WK paid)

[VI_RedsFan]

Bray is good enough to do that.

If you really think he can't be a closer, then you obviously haven't seen his stuff...

[Ltlabner]

I though relievers were high priced?

And McCarthy for Soriano.

[pedro]

I though relievers were high priced? Now we will have seen two decent relievers(MacDougal and Wickman) go for very little (at least certainly a lot less than what WK paid)

The Reds were looking for a guy who could throw a lot of innings in middle relief. I know you don't want to acknowledge that but neither wickman or macdougal is that guy.

[Falls City Beer]

ah, the potential crap again.

Same stuff spewed when WMP got traded. Look how that turned out.

Nah. The sample was plenty big on WMP at the time of the Reds trading him. McCarthy's is way smaller. Plus, McCarthy's minor league numbers suggest big things. But pitchers are tough to gauge, obviously. Still, I like what I've seen from McCarthy--he's relatively tough to put in play.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

If the Nationals get McCarthy for Soriano, then Bowden really has become a genius again.

I'm not saying I wouldn't want McCarthy but I would think that Soriano could bring more than just him in a trade. With so many teams still in contention and Soriano being the best bat available I would think you could get a nice package of prospects.

[flyer85]

I am sure McCarthy would go right to the Nats rotation, he has posted extremely good minor league numbers in his career.

[Falls City Beer]

If you really think he can't be a closer, then you obviously haven't seen his stuff...

I have. He looks like Gabe White. In other words, a decent middle reliever.

[flyer85]

The Reds were looking for a guy who could throw a lot of innings in middle relief. I know you don't want to acknowledge that but neither wickman or macdougal is that guy.And there have been health question of Majewski in the last month(which I know you don't want to acknowledge) as well and the fact that he had been overused in the first half of the season. He has been a lot less effective in July. Is it due to the earlier overuse?

[Johnny Footstool]

what makes mcarthy so much better than majewski or Bray? He's given up 8 hr's in 50 innings.

That's rhetorical, right?

McCarthy was dominating as a starter in the minor leagues. He's always tended to give up the longball, but he has struck out more than a batter per inning in each of his professional seasons, and his career minor league K/BB is better than 4:1. That's just sick.

Majewski was decent (not dominating) in the minors and is three years older than McCarthy. Bray pitched well in the minors, but in far fewer innings and as a reliever, not a starter.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

And McCarthy for Soriano.

McCarthy is viewed by most as a starter so you can't compare that to the Reds/Nats deal.

[Heath]

I am sure McCarthy would go right to the Nats rotation, he has posted extremely good minor league numbers in his career.

I think there are 29 other teams that he could head right into the rotation.

Whew - if Soriano goes to the ChiSox - Detroit's in trouble. The Tigers' corner infielders are in some type of slump.

[pedro]

And there have been health question of Majewski in the last month(which I know you don't want to acknowledge) as well and the fact that he had been overused in the first half of the season. He has been a lot less effective in July. Is it due to the earlier overuse?

It may be and if Majewski is hurt then shame of the Reds.

[HotCorner]

I though relievers were high priced? Now we will have seen two decent relievers(MacDougal and Wickman) go for very little (at least certainly a lot less than what WK paid)

I do believe WK got Guardado for very little. Please do not compare the Wickman deal to the Majewski/Bray deal. Trade-wise it's like comparing apples to oranges. The Guardado and Wickman deals however are an apples-to-apples trade (i.e. an aging vet for a prosect).

[Shaggy Sanchez]

It may be and if Majewski is hurt then shame of the Reds.

Even if Majewski isn't hurt shame on the Reds. He has yet to show me that he is worth Lopez or Kearns straight up.

[Ltlabner]

McCarthy is viewed by most as a starter so you can't compare that to the Reds/Nats deal.

But I thought that part of the argument was giving up an every day player for someone who wouldn't play nearly as much (ie bullpen). A starter will certninally get more playing time than a bullpenner, but not close to a every day player.

[pedro]

That's rhetorical, right?

McCarthy was dominating as a starter in the minor leagues. He's always tended to give up the longball, but he has struck out more than a batter per inning in each of his professional seasons, and his career minor league K/BB is better than 4:1. That's just sick.

Majewski was decent (not dominating) in the minors and is three years older than McCarthy. Bray pitched well in the minors, but in far fewer innings and as a reliever, not a starter.

Not knowing much about Mcarthy, I was just going by his major league numbers. I went back and looked at his minor league numbers which are quite good. He does have some HR problems though even in the minors.

[flyer85]

It may be and if Majewski is hurt then shame of the Reds.It wouldn't be the first time Ol Leatherpants has done that. All I am saying is there is almost no way Majewski could continue with the workload the Nats put on him in the first half. He was seriously overused by Robinson. It may have been because he had little else to turn to and a starting rotation that did not pitch enough innings (esp after Patterson went down).

[pedro]

Even if Majewski isn't hurt shame on the Reds. He has yet to show me that he is worth Lopez or Kearns straight up.

Purely specualtion but I'm of the opinion that Lopez and Kearns were jettisoned for off field reasons as well as purely a talent swap.

[Johnny Footstool]

But I thought that part of the argument was giving up an every day player for someone who wouldn't play nearly as much (ie bullpen). A starter will certninally get more playing time than a bullpenner, but not close to a every day player.

Comparing a starting pitcher to a middle reliever is indeed comparing apples to oranges.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

But I thought that part of the argument was giving up an every day player for someone who wouldn't play nearly as much (ie bullpen). A starter will certninally get more playing time than a bullpenner, but not close to a every day player.

I don't think that anyone would have a problem giving up an everyday player for a starter. I don't feel that people were so upset with how much time one might play, but more the fact that middle relievers are usually pretty easy to find in the offseason.

[Ltlabner]

Purely specualtion but I'm of the opinion that Lopez and Kearns were jettisoned for off field reasons as well as purely a talent swap.

Come on Pedro, all that matters are the numbers on the paper. All that wacky "off the field" personell matters shouln'd be included in "real" analysis. ;)

[flyer85]

I do believe WK got Guardado for very little. Please do not compare the Wickman deal to the Majewski/Bray deal. Trade-wise it's like comparing apples to oranges. The Guardado and Wickman deals however are an apples-to-apples trade (i.e. an aging vet for a prosect).The trade was about positioning the team to win now. If the trade was done for potential long term value of middle releivers then it was stupidity of the highest order (and I have never heard WK position it that way). The trade was done to help right now.

[westofyou]

All I am saying is there is almost no way Majewski could continue with the workload the Nats put on him in the first half.
He's projected for 96 innings, if handled right (and that's probably the main issue) every team should and could have an 100 IP reliever, they were around for 50 years, no reason you can't create them again.

[Johnny Footstool]

Not knowing much about Mcarthy, I was just going by his major league numbers. I went back and looked at his minor league numbers which are quite good. He does have some HR problems though even in the minors.

Yes, but his K/9 and K/BB are well worth it. The kid has a rare combination of stuff AND control.

[Ltlabner]

I don't think that anyone would have a problem giving up an everyday player for a starter. I don't feel that people were so upset with how much time one might play, but more the fact that middle relievers are usually pretty easy to find in the offseason.

When the season is over...we've fallen apart and faded to the bottom of the division and the fans are shown once again that ownership is just "rebuilding" for the future and they will have no shot at competiting in the now.

But that's a deadhorse that falls on deaf ears.

[Falls City Beer]

He's projected for 96 innings, if handled right (and that's probably the main issue) every team should and could have an 100 IP reliever, they were around for 50 years, no reason you can't create them again.

I agree. I don't think Majewski's ineffectiveness is due to workload; rather, I think it's due to being an average reliever with the yips in the middle of a pennant race.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

Purely specualtion but I'm of the opinion that Lopez and Kearns were jettisoned for off field reasons as well as purely a talent swap.
It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. I do think that you have to still try to get the best return possible even if you are just trying to get rid of a guys attitude or whatever. As bad as Lopez and Kearns are said to have been with off the field stuff it obviously wasn't bad enough that they were causing the Reds to lose. We have seen what can happen when someone is let go to fast in order to make a point. His name is Josh Hancock and he has pitched better than most of the guys that have been in our pen.

[Falls City Beer]

His name is Josh Hancock and he has pitched better than most of the guys that have been in our pen.

All of the guys in our bullpen.

[Johnny Footstool]

Come on Pedro, all that matters are the numbers on the paper. All that wacky "off the field" personell matters shouln'd be included in "real" analysis. ;)

The "off the field" stuff must be the issue, because on paper the Reds got screwed big time.

[flyer85]

All of the guys in our bullpen.The funny thing about the entire episode is the Reds ended up with a couple of blimps in the pen anyway.

[Aronchis]

McCarthy's stuff is overrated. His command/polish are there of course, but his lack of talent has been shown up in the majors. The White Sox have been waiting to dump him for a year now, though nobody has offered the piece they want. Time is a wasting. Soriano may be the right piece.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

The funny thing about the entire episode is the Reds ended up with a couple of blimps in the pen anyway.
Do you think they ever said anything to Rick white about his weight?

[flyer85]

The "off the field" stuff must be the issue, because on paper the Reds got screwed big time.which is just a way of excusing a trade that looks bad no matter the angle from which you attempt to view it. Reminds of the comments about Peterson being able to fix Zambrano and that Kazmir was an injury waiting to happen.

Maybe three years in hindsight this deal will turn out great for the Reds but in the present there is no way to view this deal objectively and have it look good.

[Johnny Footstool]

McCarthy's stuff is overrated. His command/polish are there of course, but his lack of talent has been shown up in the majors. The White Sox have been waiting to dump him for a year now, though nobody has offered the piece they want. Time is a wasting. Soriano may be the right piece.

Yeah, those 117 major league innings with an ERA of 4.07 at age 23 certainly prove he's lacking in talent. I can't believe the Sox have waited so long to dump him.

:laugh:

[Johnny Footstool]

which is just a way of excusing a trade that looks bad no matter the angle from which you attempt to view it. Reminds of the comments about Peterson being able to fix Zambrano and that Kazmir was an injury waiting to happen.

Maybe three years in hindsight this deal will turn out great for the Reds but in the present there is no way to view this deal objectively and have it look good.

I agree. The "off field stuff" only became an issue after the trade went down and 95% of the baseball world said it was horrible. Smells like an after-the-fact rationalization to me.

[Aronchis]

Yeah, those 117 major league innings with an ERA of 4.07 at age 23 certainly prove he's lacking in talent. I can't believe the Sox have waited so long to dump him.

:laugh:

Yeah, considering how babied he has been:eek:

I never said the guy wouldn't be a decent pitcher in this league, but a ace? I don't see it.

[westofyou]

Smells like an after-the-fact rationalization to me.
And bypassing the issue of Lopez's defense and field leadership qualities because he can hit or the fact that Kearns was replaced by Freel and Denorfia is as well.

In fact, people just keep talking about what the Reds should have got and not why they traded, which was a combination of needs and evaluations made during a 9-20 run before the All Star Game when everyone screamed for something to happened.

Well it did.

[flyer85]

I wonder how much Denorfia will get to play in RF. Afterall, we all know Freel is not an everyday player.

[KronoRed]

I wonder how much Denorfia will get to play in RF. Afterall, we all know Freel is not an everyday player.
I think Deno being a young player will result in Freel getting most of the at bats, Freel being a vet and all ;)

[StillFunkyB]

It's funny when they say "sources" when talking about Jim Bowden.

They should just say Jim Bowden is the source, because everyone and their momma knows it's him. :)

[15fan]

MacDougal to the Sox, setting up for Jenks?

Uber Cool. :thumbup:

[REDREAD]

I agree. The "off field stuff" only became an issue after the trade went down and 95% of the baseball world said it was horrible. Smells like an after-the-fact rationalization to me.

Even if they did have "off the field" stuff going on, you could've gotten a lot more for them.

Funny how last season, it was being debated whether Lopez or Dunn was the best all around player on the Reds. Now Lopez is some kind of head case in some people's minds :confused:

Kearns did put on some weight, and maybe he doesn't act as professional as Narron wants him to, yet he's still an above average corner OF. The initial trade was Kearns-Majewski.. There's no way that's even close to an even swap.

Bowden knew who was in Wayne's doghouse and pounced.

[Javy Pornstache]

Well, I know Soriano-McCarthy is the more interesting part, but just saying that MacDougal to the Sox is official for those who may care, didn't see it otherwise listed in here unless I overlooked it amongst the Soriano, McCarthy, Rick White, Kearns, Lopez and Hancock talk.

[BRM]

SouthSideSox.com is reporting that MacDougal has been traded to the Sox for Tyler Lumsden and Daniel Cortes.

[flyer85]

Bowden knew who was in Wayne's doghouse and pounced.and obviously sensed some desperation in WK and went for more than just Kearns. Quality everyday players are far more valuable than middle relievers and there is just no way around that fact.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

Going back to the original point of this thread for a minute. What do you think the odds of Bowden leaking this info to Tim K. in an attempt to drive up the price and get Detroit or Anaheim to up their offers.

[flyer85]

Going back to the original point of this thread for a minute. What do you think the odds of Bowden leaking this info to Tim K. in an attempt to drive up the price and get Detroit or Anaheim to up their offers.JB will use any and all means to improve his position.

[captainmorgan07]

where would the soxs play soriano at there stacked in the outifeld and at second

[pedro]

where would the soxs play soriano at there stacked in the outifeld and at second

bench podsednik or anderson.

[flyer85]

where would the soxs play soriano at there stacked in the outifeld and at secondSoriano to LF and Podsednik to CF.

[cincy jacket]

I would think Podsednik would be part of the deal going to Washington. He is close enough to a 5 tool player so there is no way Bowden would pass him up.;)

[REDREAD]

and obviously sensed some desperation in WK and went for more than just Kearns. Quality everyday players are far more valuable than middle relievers and there is just no way around that fact.

Yeah, in one article they mentioned that they initiallly agreed on Kearns-Maj.. Then I bet Bowden kept talking because he knew he could get Lopez and Wagner on the cheap. Not saying Wagner is a huge loss, but he was a good target as a reclamation project.

Kind of reminds me of how Bowden swooped in once he found out that Neagle was viewed as expendable.

[KronoRed]

Soriano to LF and Podsednik to CF.
Not too much of a D hit that way.

[blumj]

I would think Podsednik would be part of the deal going to Washington. He is close enough to a 5 tool player so there is no way Bowden would pass him up.
Funny, I was thinking Anderson would have to be going to Washington.

[15fan]

Kind of reminds me of how Bowden swooped in once he found out that Neagle was viewed as expendable.

That was a good deal for Bowden & the Reds.

When it came time to deal Neagle later, though...yuck!

[BRM]

Not too much of a D hit that way.

Most Sox fans don't think much of Pods defense.

[Johnny Footstool]

SouthSideSox.com is reporting that MacDougal has been traded to the Sox for Tyler Lumsden and Daniel Cortez.

Tyler Lumsden's college and minor league numbers:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/L/Tyler-Lumsden.shtml

Good K/9, has problems with BBs in his first minor league season. 23 years old.

Daniel Cortes:

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Daniel-Cortes.shtml

Cortes appears to have better control than Lumsden. He's 19 years old.

Both of these kids are pretty raw.

[Red Leader]

Funny, I was thinking Anderson would have to be going to Washington.

Me too.

[Shaggy Sanchez]

Keith Law just said on ESPNEWS that Pods would go to the bech and become a super sub for the entire OF. He also said that there would be a couple minor leagers going with McCarthy to Washington for Soriano but no names were given.

[Willy]

opps

[cincy jacket]

Funny, I was thinking Anderson would have to be going to Washington.

You are probablly right. Posednick just always struck me as a type of guy Bowden would covet. No particular reason why just always seemed that way to me.

[registerthis]

When the season is over...we've fallen apart and faded to the bottom of the division and the fans are shown once again that ownership is just "rebuilding" for the future and they will have no shot at competiting in the now.

But that's a deadhorse that falls on deaf ears.

And yet, and yet...that the team is still contending has very little to do with the contributions of Bray or Majewski.

[Ltlabner]

And yet, and yet...that the team is still contending has very little to do with the contributions of Bray or Majewski.

And where did I claim that it did? The point I was making was that Kriv could have taken the chance of waiting until the offseason to get the sort of return people think we should have gotten. And by doing nothing watch the team slide into the abyss...again. He feels he is taking a step towards making the team a stronger competior for the remainder of the year and without a better bullpen we would have faded. Could we still fade (partly) because of the bullpen? Of course. But I like having some chance at success (speeking strictly about the bullpen) then knowing for sure the rest of the year is over.

Kriv felt the negative drag of a horible bullpen out weighed the offensive output of two players over the long haul. If it didn't they wouldn't have gone on such a horrible skid just prior to the break.

In the long run he felt that getting two better arms for the bullpen would improve the teams chances for being competive than the offence the position players would have provided. It's a rationale that I think make total sense as the strong & streaky offense model had been tried for years and has gotten us no where.

Of course, it's not the rationale that people argue (mostly) it's the return.

But we woln't know the outcome of the trade for quite a while. So we'll all sit back and listen to people gripe about it until either disaster comes true or we see that Kriv's "sea change" in team makeup was the right decision.

[registerthis]

And where did I claim that it did?

Perhaps I mistook the whole doomsday scenario of the season collapsing into the trash heap if something weren't done to be an endorsement of the deal. My prediction is that Guardado will have a larger impact on this team's fortunes (or misfortunes) than either Bray or Majewski will this year.


Kriv felt the negative drag of a horible bullpen out weighed the offensive output of two players over the long haul. If it didn't they wouldn't have gone on such a horrible skid just prior to the break.

Then why go for an overrated MR and an unproven rookie as the cornerstones of the deal? If you value relief pitching so much higher than offensive prowess, why not go after bigger fish than what was landed? If you're going to give up big talent in the name of acquiring talent to help your team now, then go for it. Case in point: I'd be MUCH happier with the trade if I saw Jon rauch's name there instead of Majewski.


But we woln't know the outcome of the trade for quite a while. So we'll all sit back and listen to people gripe about it until either disaster comes true or we see that Kriv's "sea change" in team makeup was the right decision.

We'll watch people gripe about it, or we'll watch people invent creative ways to positively spin a trade that was so widely panned. I agree though on one aspect--it's over and done, and you just hope that this works out for the Reds. I have to say, the odds are not in their favor, but the jury will have some time to deliberate on this.

[westofyou]

And yet, and yet...that the team is still contending has very little to do with the contributions of Bray or Majewski.
Well maybe, if you assume that their innings would have been filled by competent replacements, or that Merker would not have gone down sooner without Bray to pick up some of the slack, or that the rain delays and dip into the BP could have succeeded without the new guys there to pick up more of that slack from the dogs that were giving the games away 2 times out of every 3 games the month prior to the AS break.

Yeah it could matter, it could not.

[REDREAD]

That was a good deal for Bowden & the Reds.

When it came time to deal Neagle later, though...yuck!

I agree, we undersold Neagle to the Yanks. No question about it.

[registerthis]

Well maybe, if you assume that their innings would have been filled by competent replacements, or that Merker would not have gone down sooner without Bray to pick up some of the slack, or that the rain delays and dip into the BP could have succeeded without the new guys there to pick up more of that slack from the dogs that were giving the games away 2 times out of every 3 games the month prior to the AS break.

Bray has been OK thus far, Majewski has hardly been a "competent replacement", although I'm certain his numbers will improve. Thus far, the jury's out on whether or not the Reds' slide would have continued without the addition of those two.

Like I said earlier, I've been much more impressed with Guardado than either Bray or Majewski. I think over the course of the season he'll come to be seen as the bigger acquisition.

[Gallen5862]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions
Chicago Whitesox Acquired pitcher Mike MacDougal from the Kansas City Royals for minor league pitchers Tyler Lumsden and Daniel Cortes; optioned pitcher Sean Tracey to Charlotte of the International League (AAA).

[Ltlabner]

Then why go for an overrated MR and an unproven rookie as the cornerstones of the deal? If you value relief pitching so much higher than offensive prowess, why not go after bigger fish than what was landed? If you're going to give up big talent in the name of acquiring talent to help your team now, then go for it. Case in point: I'd be MUCH happier with the trade if I saw Jon rauch's name there instead of Majewski.

Well, that's what I was saying Registar. I endorse the rationale of the trade. The jury is out on the excecution of the trade and I can understand why people feel we didn't get enough in return.


We'll watch people gripe about it, or we'll watch people invent creative ways to positively spin a trade that was so widely panned. I agree though on one aspect--it's over and done, and you just hope that this works out for the Reds. I have to say, the odds are not in their favor, but the jury will have some time to deliberate on this.

My only squable with your post is that because lots of people pan a trade doesn't automatically mean that it was infact, a horrible trade. This is not a "spin" to endorse the trade but just a statement of fact. Lots of people thought the world was flat at one time.

But we'll see where it ends up.