7/30/06 - Reds vs Brewers Game Thread

[Reds Fanatic]

Freel pops out to 2nd. 1 out.

[Matt700wlw]

Sheets is making Adam Dunn look like Adam Dunn...

[Falls City Beer]

Unravelleth: Verb. Ancient word made up of the root unrave (dominate) and lleth (Brewers)


Dominate: VT. the act of Sheets throwing a complete game under 100 pitches to the Reds.

[George Foster]

we've won 3 of the 5 series we have played them this year FCB. ;)

But if we loose today, we lose the season match-up. winning 2 of three and losing 3 of 4 are not equal.

[vaticanplum]

Series is tied at 9. Plus, the Brews have improved their pen AND starting rotation.

FCB, I adore you, but you are an odd kind of pessimist. Your glass draineth with the Reds and overfloweth with regards to everybody else.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn lines a single to right.

[KronoRed]

I like FCB..he keeps the game thread balanced

[George Foster]

here we go...

[Matt700wlw]

Sheets is making Adam Dunn look like Adam Dunn...

And by that I mean allowing him to continue hitting the way he has :)

[Matt700wlw]

Griffey's starting to bug me...

[MWM]

Not trying to take sides here, but it's darn near impossible to gauge an infielder's range by watching on TV, either way.

[GAC]

Series is tied at 9. Plus, the Brews have improved their pen AND starting rotation.

No. The games are tied at nine, but we've won 3 of the five SERIES.

My point is that we have not been a push-over for the Brewers, as you seem to suggest. ;)

[Falls City Beer]

Only the third hit of the day given up by Sheets.

[George Foster]

wow Jr NEVER swings at the first pitch...:laugh:

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior grounds into a DP. 1-0 Brewers mid 6th.

[Jpup]

What happenned to Jr.?:bang:

He needs to spend some time with Sr. on Monday or something. He has been horrible.

[Matt700wlw]

No. The games are tied at nine, but we've won 3 of the five SERIES.

My point is that we have not been a push-over for the Brewers, as you seem to suggest. ;)

In his world, the Reds stink.

[Falls City Beer]

Sheets is averaging under 12 pitches per inning in this game. Unbelievable.

[flyer85]

Not trying to take sides here, but it's darn near impossible to gauge an infielder's range by watching on TV, either way.or an OF, you have to see it in person to judgle the jump, the quickness and the speed.

[Ltlabner]

If the Reds had to play the Brewers to determine their fate for the rest o fthe season, they'd, uh, lose.


Series is tied at 9.


So the Brewers are dominating us but the series is currently tied? And your assumption is that if we played them the rest of the year we'd only loose? Is this another example of your definition of "love" that you gave earlier?

BTW, are the Brewers dominating us like the way the Cubs are dominating the Cards? I seem to remember you've said the Cards are a real solid team and a near lock for the division.

[Reds Fanatic]

Bell lines out to short. 1 out.

[MWM]

or an OF, you have to see it in person to judgle the jump, the quickness and the speed.

It's much easier with an outfielder, because the ball hangs in the air longer and it's much easier to tell by the zone where it comes down.

[George Foster]

And by that I mean allowing him to continue hitting the way he has :)

Me thinketh, your covering your asseth:laugh:

[KronoRed]

A Casey rally killer

[flyer85]

Sheets is averaging under 12 pitches per inning in this game. Unbelievable.and makes few mistakes (that is what makes him special)

[Caveat Emperor]

Sheets is averaging under 12 pitches per inning in this game. Unbelievable.

He'll have a fantastic set of game tapes to watch and keep himself busy in October.

[NJReds]

Sheets is averaging under 12 pitches per inning in this game. Unbelievable.

It is quite a performance. You have to wonder what kind of career this guy would've had if he had been able to stay healthy.

[Falls City Beer]

So the Brewers are dominating us but the series is currently tied? And your assumption is that if we played them the rest of the year we'd only loose? Is this another example of your definition of "love" that you gave earlier?

BTW, are the Brewers dominating us like the way the Cubs are dominating the Cards? I seem to remember you've said the Cards are a real solid team and a near lock for the division.

My point is the Brewers are tied with the Reds and they've only gotten better as a team. The same can't be said of the Reds.

[Jpup]

does Bill Hall bat every inning?;)

[PuffyPig]

So the Brewers are dominating us but the series is currently tied? And your assumption is that if we played them the rest of the year we'd only loose? Is this another example of your definition of "love" that you gave earlier?

BTW, are the Brewers dominating us like the way the Cubs are dominating the Cards? I seem to remember you've said the Cards are a real solid team and a near lock for the division.

I gotta figure that there are many (well, maybe one) here who would proclaim us a non-contender if we were swept by the lowly Cubs.

[RFS62]

The Castro bashers remind me of the Dunn bashers

It's like the Hatfields and McCoys

[Matt700wlw]

My point is the Brewers are tied with the Reds and they've only gotten better as a team. The same can't be said of the Reds.

Really...

[flyer85]

It's much easier with an outfielder, because the ball hangs in the air longer and it's much easier to tell by the zone where it comes down.
TV never shows you the jump. Some guys are moving at the crack of the bat (like Jr for the most part) and some guys are a second late (like WMP got the worst jumps I've ever seen)

[Reds Fanatic]

Hall walks on a 3-2 pitch.

[Falls City Beer]

and makes few mistakes (that is what makes him special)

Right. Greg Maddux's brain and Curt Schilling's arsenal.

[Jpup]

My point is the Brewers are tied with the Reds and they've only gotten better as a team. The same can't be said of the Reds.

that's debatable.

[George Foster]

What happenned to Jr.?:bang:

He needs to spend some time with Sr. on Monday or something. He has been horrible.

What happened to Jr? nothing new....

[Matt700wlw]

Right. Greg Maddux's brain and Curt Schilling's arsenal.

Good combo

[Jpup]

What happened to Jr? nothing new....

I just meant, the whole season. It's depressing.

[Caveat Emperor]

Right. Greg Maddux's brain and Curt Schilling's arsenal.

Kerry Wood's reliability.

[Falls City Beer]

Kerry Wood's reliability.

Again, I see what you're saying. But that's not the case HERE. Right NOW, he's better than any pitcher in the NL.

[George Foster]

I just meant, the whole season. It's depressing.

It's depressing to watch Narron put him in the 3 hole everyday.

[Reds Fanatic]

Rivera singles to left. 1st and 2nd.

[Jpup]

Again, I see what you're saying. But that's not the case HERE. Right NOW, he's better than any pitcher in the NL.

as long as Roger Clemens is breathing, no he's not.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Not trying to take sides here, but it's darn near impossible to gauge an infielder's range by watching on TV, either way.

And positioning takes a lot of range out of the equation on all but very few plays in a baseball game.

[Falls City Beer]

as long as Roger Clemens is breathing, no he's not.

Um. Yes he is. Clemens is a 6 inning pitcher.

[Reds Fanatic]

Sheets sacrifices the runners to 2nd and 3rd. 2 outs.

[flyer85]

Kerry Wood's reliability.the fly in the ointment

[RFS62]

And positioning takes a lot of range out of the equation on all but very few plays in a baseball game.


Some guy named Cal made a pretty good living with that theory

[Falls City Beer]

Aaron will be lucky to make it through six. I was hoping for something more from him, but their offense simply destroys this very tired pitching staff.

[Jpup]

Um. Yes he is. Clemens is a 6 inning pitcher.

and Sheets is a no inning pitcher, most of the time. Clemens is still better anyway.

[Caveat Emperor]

Again, I see what you're saying. But that's not the case HERE. Right NOW, he's better than any pitcher in the NL.

And what I'm saying is that you can't do that when you analyze baseball. He's having a great day TODAY. Juan Castro has had a lot of great days too. Sheets, like Castro, just doesn't have enough of them.

But, the way you guys are talking about Sheets, you'd think this guy was Cy Young. He's a great pitcher, there is no doubt about it -- but his inability to stay healthy makes him nothing more than a great highlight reel on Baseball Tonight.

He's not special. If he stayed healthy, he'd be special. As it stands, all he is a great highlight on a Sunday afternoon - albeit a highlight that is making the Reds look like a knothole squad.

[Matt700wlw]

Aaron will be lucky to make it through six. I was hoping for something more from him, but their offense simply destroys this very tired pitching staff.

Yeah, he's stunk up the joint...

[Reds Fanatic]

Clark strikes out looking. 9 Ks for Harang. 1-0 Brewers after 6.

[Falls City Beer]

Phew. That should be it for Aaron. Thanks for playing, hit the showers.

[NJReds]

Nice pitch by Harang.

[Reds Fanatic]

102 pitches for Harang.

[Jpup]

Phew. That should be it for Aaron. Thanks for playing, hit the showers.

Narron will leave him in.

[KronoRed]

He'll be back out there

[flyer85]

He's not special. If he stayed healthy, he'd be special. Have to agree. Until he proves he can stay healthy for a couple of season he is just a guy the Brewers are paying a lot of money for not a great return.

I'd much rather have Harang.

[oneupper]

He'll be back out there

How hot is it?

[MWM]

Well, I will say it's a bit condescending to claim that those who think Castro lacks range just "aren't watching." I get that some people are good at evaluating what they see. I think my experience having played most of my life in the infield gives me a good idea of what I'm seeing when I watch as well. And I watched a lot in person when Castro was with the team before, and on TV (which gives you limited feedback on range, IMO) and I just don't think the guy has very good range. And yes, I AM watching. I just come to a different conclusion. But don't tell me I'm not watching if I don't agree with you. A player lacking range who makes a nice play going to his right, might look like he's got good range when a rangier player might have made it look routine. You can tell lack of range by balls he DOESN'T get to. Aurilia at short last year had such bad range that it WAS obvious by even watching on TV. I can't count the times a ball was hit you'd think would be a fairly routine play get by Richie. That's why he hasn't been used there this year.

Does Castro's lack of range get exaggerated here? Of course it does. It's RedsZone. But that doesn't mean it's not a weakness of his. I truly believe his range is a liability, regardless if some folks think I must not be watching.

[Falls City Beer]

And what I'm saying is that you can't do that when you analyze baseball. He's having a great day TODAY. Juan Castro has had a lot of great days too. Sheets, like Castro, just doesn't have enough of them.

But, the way you guys are talking about Sheets, you'd think this guy was Cy Young. He's a great pitcher, there is no doubt about it -- but his inability to stay healthy makes him nothing more than a great highlight reel on Baseball Tonight.

He's not special. If he stayed healthy, he'd be special. As it stands, all he is a great highlight on a Sunday afternoon - albeit a highlight that is making the Reds look like a knothole squad.

When he's healthy he's unbeatable. If he stays healthy for two months (and he's done that many times in his career), the Brewers just made the equivalent of acquiring an ace via trade. There won't be a team in the NL this year who can claim that. It should make the race very, very interesting.

[NJReds]

Phew. That should be it for Aaron. Thanks for playing, hit the showers.


102 pitches. (Sheets w/68, BTW).

Yeah. I think it's time for the pen with the heart of the order coming up.

[Matt700wlw]

Not the most "pitch efficient" outing we've seen from Harang, but another solid job by a guy who has really developed over the past couple years.

[Matt700wlw]

How hot is it?

Roof's closed

[Reds Fanatic]

Aurilia grounds out to 3rd. 1 out.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Originally posted by RFS62: Some guy named Cal made a pretty good living with that theory.



Casto's range is not a lot worse than a lot of guys that I see playing shortstop on a daily basis for a lot of major league teams. The guy makes all the plays that he can get to, and there is certainly something to be said for that. I don't dispute that there are elite type shortstops that have the range and make the routine play, but I haven't seen that on the Reds since a "younger" Barry Larkin. (His range was not the best the last few years he played, either, but he made all the plays he could get to and an occasional brilliant one)With stats being what they are these days, most of the time you should be able to put your shortstop in a position where range is not as big a deal. Heck, Cal Ripken made a pretty good career out of it. I hear, range, range, range but sometimes, I don't think it is as relevant as some make it and just use it to hammer a player they don't hold in high esteem.

Great minds.....................;) :beerme:

[PuffyPig]

My point is the Brewers are tied with the Reds and they've only gotten better as a team. The same can't be said of the Reds.

Many think the Reds are improved since the all star break, when we have gone from will card contender to wild card leader.

And the Brewers have gotten better because Sheets and Ohka are back.

If the Brewers had been healthy all season, they would likely be in first place.

Of course, if the Cards rotation had pitched like last year instead of imitating Eric Milton, they'd be 20 games in front.

I guess that's why they play the games.

[vaticanplum]

Still just a one-run lead. I like our chances here, but our bullpen has got to show up but good.

[Falls City Beer]

Second hard hit ball all day today against Sheets. And it's an out.

[Cedric]

The problem with this lineup is the Reds have seriously limited power from 4-9.

It's hard to make Sheets pay with one pitch.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hatterberg reaches on an infield single.

[NJReds]

That wouldn't have been an IF single for Hatte if the Brewers weren't playing the shift.

Is the shift now standard for all LH hitters?

[VR]

Narron will leave him in.

Appropriately so, unless his spot comes up this inning. He's a workhorse folks, he just starts getting good after 100 pitches. I know we're not used to seeing starters able to go over 5 innings with pitch counts driven up because of the ability to strike people out. This is not Cory Lidle, Jimmy Haynes, or Paul Wilson. It's a bonafide front of the rotation horse. The kind we've been yearning for for years....and 'poof' here he is.

[KronoRed]

Rob Butcher is in the thead

[flyer85]

When he's healthy he's unbeatable. If he stays healthy for two months (and he's done that many times in his career), the Brewers just made the equivalent of acquiring an ace via trade. There won't be a team in the NL this year who can claim that. It should make the race very, very interesting.if he had been healthy all year the wild card race might not have been very interesting.

[reds44]

I see Jeff knows his name is Bill Hall and not Billy.


Nice change from GG.

[Falls City Beer]

Do you pinch-run for Hatteberg, as Phillips is the only guy who's dialed in on Sheets all day long?

[flyer85]

The problem with this lineup is the Reds have seriously limited power from 4-9.

It's hard to make Sheets pay with one pitch.do tell

[RFS62]

I think it's pretty clear why Castro's range doesn't show up in the statistics. The hitters quake in his Denorfian presence and subconsciously hit the ball away from his massive domain.

[Falls City Beer]

if he had been healthy all year the wild card race might not have been very interesting.

Hell, the Mets wouldn't be leading the NL in wins.

[NJReds]

Last pitch for Sheets was 94 MPH.

[Caveat Emperor]

Hell, the Mets wouldn't be leading the NL in wins.

Lets not get carried away, they'd still have Derrick Turnbow as their closer. ;)

[RollyInRaleigh]

Well, I will say it's a bit condescending to claim that those who think Castro lacks range just "aren't watching." I get that some people are good at evaluating what they see. I think my experience having played most of my life in the infield gives me a good idea of what I'm seeing when I watch as well. And I watched a lot in person when Castro was with the team before, and on TV (which gives you limited feedback on range, IMO) and I just don't think the guy has very good range. And yes, I AM watching. I just come to a different conclusion. But don't tell me I'm not watching if I don't agree with you. A player lacking range who makes a nice play going to his right, might look like he's got good range when a rangier player might have made it look routine. You can tell lack of range by balls he DOESN'T get to. Aurilia at short last year had such bad range that it WAS obvious by even watching on TV. I can't count the times a ball was hit you'd think would be a fairly routine play get by Richie. That's why he hasn't been used there this year.

Does Castro's lack of range get exaggerated here? Of course it does. It's RedsZone. But that doesn't mean it's not a weakness of his. I truly believe his range is a liability, regardless if some folks think I must not be watching.

Someone being condescending on Redszone? Never:laugh: And who said you weren't watching, MWM?

[Matt700wlw]

Hell, the Mets wouldn't be leading the NL in wins.

That's debatable....but the Reds would probably be staring up at the Brewers if not in the division, definitely the Wild Card, but probably the division

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillips grounds into a 4-3 DP. 1-0 Brewers mid 7th.

[reds44]

There is a way to run yourself out of an inning.

[NJReds]

Hell, the Mets wouldn't be leading the NL in wins.

Glavine got tagged again today. The Mets will have problems in the playoffs, IMO, if they don't get a pitcher at the break. They really should send Milledge to the A's for Zito.

[MWM]

You said anyone who thinks Castro doesn't have range just isn't watching.

[KronoRed]

How come all the Sheets is never healthy stuff? from 2002-2004 he made 34 starts a year and averaged 224 innings, sure he's been a hurt these last 2 years but it's a little early to say he's doomed for life.

[flyer85]

Phillips forgot to run

[Falls City Beer]

This is the best pitching performance I've seen all season. It's not even close.

[Reds Fanatic]

79 pitches for Sheets.

[Jpup]

why didn't Phillips run?

[RollyInRaleigh]

You said anyone who thinks Castro doesn't have range just isn't watching.

When and where did I say that?

[Jpup]

This is the best pitching performance I've seen all season. It's not even close.

have you watched Liriano or Santana?

[flyer85]

How come all the Sheets is never healthy stuff? from 2002-2004 he made 34 starts a year and averaged 224 innings, sure he's been a hurt these last 2 years but it's a little early to say he's doomed for life.the problem is just as he seemed to "figure it out" and become a dominating #1 starter is when the injuries showed up.

[Falls City Beer]

He's toying with the Reds (one of the best offenses in baseball) like a kitty with a mouse.

[CTA513]

The Reds actually try a hit and run and turns into a double play because the second baseman went to cover second.

It seems like everything is going the Brewers way today.

[Jpup]

Abreu and Lidle deal is official.

[Reds Fanatic]

Phillies-Yankees trade is official. Abreu and Lidle traded to the Yankees for 4 minor league players. Yankees will pay all of Abreu's salary.

[Falls City Beer]

have you watched Liriano or Santana?

Liriano's the only pitcher right now who could approach what Sheets is doing today.

I think some of us get a little googly-eyed by Harang, who is very good, but when you see the REAL thing, it's pretty stunning.

[Matt700wlw]

Liriano's the only pitcher right now who could approach what Sheets is doing today.

I think some of us get a little googly-eyed by Harang, who is very good, but when you see the REAL thing, it's pretty stunning.

So Aaron's not the real deal?


Wow

[Falls City Beer]

Aaron, please hit the showers.

[Reds Fanatic]

Graffanino lines a single to center.

[Falls City Beer]

So Aaron's not the real deal?


Wow

Not compared to Sheets he's not.

[Jpup]

Liriano's the only pitcher right now who could approach what Sheets is doing today.

I think some of us get a little googly-eyed by Harang, who is very good, but when you see the REAL thing, it's pretty stunning.

so you think Harang has not shown that he is the real thing? He's a very good pitcher. No, he's not one of the 5 or 10 best in baseball, but he's close and very good.

[Matt700wlw]

Not compared to Sheets he's not.

Guys like Sheets, Loriano, Santana...etc don't come around very often.


I'm hoping Homer Bailey ends up being one of those.

[Reds Fanatic]

Fielder singles to right. 1st and 2nd.

[Falls City Beer]

Jerry Narron is an absolute imbecile. I hate him.

[NJReds]

Coffey and Shack warming up. Too late, though, as the Brewers have two on, none out.

There was no room for messing around today, but Narron felt it necessary to toss Harang back out there.

[reds44]

Not compared to Sheets he's not.
I'd much rather have Harang then Sheets.

When healthy Sheets is better, but he is never healthy.

[Cedric]

People can complain all they want about Narron and his use of the bullpen. He has zero feel for the game in that regard.

[Falls City Beer]

I'd much rather have Harang then Sheets.

When healthy Sheets is better, but he is never healthy.

Sheets is worth waiting for. He'd trade them straight up.

[Matt700wlw]

Jerry Narron is an absolute imbecile. I hate him.

You pretty much hate everything about this team.

[KronoRed]

ESPN is in giddy mode

[Caveat Emperor]

Yeah -- In hindsight, the bullpen might've been a better choice for this inning.

[Reds Fanatic]

Mench homers. 4-0 Brewers. Nice job Narron.

[Jpup]

Narron cost the Reds again. That's several times in the past couple of weeks.

[reds44]

Charge those 3 runs to Narron.

The guy with his vet love and leaving pitchers in too long is the 2nd coming of Dusty Baker.

[Falls City Beer]

You pretty much hate everything about this team.

And I'm so often wrong. :rolleyes:

[Joseph]

I despise the Brewers

[Reds Fanatic]

Pitching change. As usual when it is too late.

[CTA513]

Might as well let guys like Majewski and Weathers finish the game.

[NJReds]

And I'm so often wrong. :rolleyes:

About 50-50. :p:

[Falls City Beer]

"Doug Melvin, this is Oslo, we're calling from the Nobel Committee. We want to give you the prize this year for Ass-Kicking in General Managership."

[LoganBuck]

I actually hate Jerry Narron.

I am addicted to rage-ahol.

[westofyou]

And I'm so often wrong. :rolleyes:
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back FCB.

[PuffyPig]

And I'm so often wrong. :rolleyes:

Finally, something we can all agree on.

[Matt700wlw]

This wasn't a very good idea...

[Falls City Beer]

About 50-50. :p:

Better than Narron's and Krivsky's 20-80. :)

[KronoRed]

Could have been worse

[membengal]

Unreal. Following along on this thread while floating around the Carribean on vacation, and I could just feel that coming when he sent Harang back out there. I cannot stand how Narron handles the decisions of when to pull pitchers. It has gotten even more irritating since they actually tried to get a bullpen.

Ah well, time to go back to rum-filled drinks and forget about life (and the Reds) for a short while...

[westofyou]

"Doug Melvin, this is Oslo, we're calling from the Nobel Committee. We want to give you the prize this year for Ass-Kicking in General Managership."
Now that is funny.

[Reds Fanatic]

Shackelford in to pitch.

[Caveat Emperor]

And I'm so often wrong. :rolleyes:

Predicting failure in a sport where being 3 out of 10 makes you the hall of fame doesn't exactly make you the Amazing Kreskin.

[MWM]

When and where did I say that?

It wasn't directed at me, but you said to someone who said that Castro lacks range that he must not be watching. Look, I'm not interested in going down this path further. I don't think his lack of range is a bad as some make it out to be, but I do believe it's a deficiency of his. Hell, I enjoy watching the guy play. He's fun to watch pick it when he's on the field. He's flashy and makes some nice plays. And I also agree that probability says that on any given day, it's not likely that more than one ball would be hit where his lack of range would prevent him from getting to it. But over the course of a season, or even a month, there will be balls that a SS with average range would get to that Catro wouldn't. I think it's a legitimate opinion. And I do think that range is important for middle of the field defense. And even with all the science behind positioning, there will still inveitably be plenty of balls in a season that a rangy SS will get to that a slow one won't. IMO, range is the biiggest difference between good and great shortstops.

[TeamBoone]

Lately, it seems each starting pitching is left in for one inning too long.

They keep saying how hot it is inside the stadium and even I could see that Harang was slowly tiring.

[oneupper]

Win expectancy went from 27.1% starting the inning to 3.9% now.

Narron, of course, expects the team to "battle back".

:rolleyes:

[Falls City Beer]

Now that is funny.

Dude's just a weency bit talented. He absolutely unclothed Texas.

[OnBaseMachine]

Jerry Narron is an absolute imbecile. I hate him.

I hate him too. Awful manager.

[KronoRed]

Cincy Heat Advisory

[TeamBoone]

Unreal. Following along on this thread while floating around the Carribean on vacation, Ah well, time to go back to rum-filled drinks and forget about life (and the Reds) for a short while...

Oh! I am sooooooooo jealous!

[Reds Fanatic]

Jenkins grounds out to 2nd. 1 out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Coffey in to pitch.

[LoganBuck]

Would it be premature for someone to lock up firejerrynarron.com?

[DoogMinAmo]

Since the game is now out of hand, time for a crazy Reds hypothetical:

Who wins in battle between Shackelford, who can't get righties out, and Valentin, who cant hit as a righty?

[Caveat Emperor]

Dude's just a weency bit talented. He absolutely unclothed Texas.

Having top-flight talent that is performing at top-flight level tends to make you look smart.

His Lyle Overbay trade was much more praiseworthy than this one, which was essentially selling off one of the better hitters in baseball. That should be fairly easy.

[Marc D]

Remember, we can't blame Narron. Lineups and pitcher usage don't matter.

Its all about the clubhouse.

[Cedric]

Since the game is now out of hand, time for a crazy Reds hypothetical:

Who wins in battle between Shackelford, who can't get righties out, and Valentin, who cant hit as a righty?

Shack. All he has to do is just throw it 55 feet and Valentin will swing at it.

[KronoRed]

Who wins in battle between Shackelford, who can't get righties out, and Valentin, who cant hit as a righty?
Jack Bauer

[Reds1]

Not as much as when Edwin is in the lineup.

RA is doing a great job and deserves to be in there and more important the Reds manager thinks so and it doesn't look like he's changing anytime soon! I know you don't like it, but it is what it is. Now if RA didn't do anything then I'd be on the bandwagon with you, but his hit against sheet in his 1st ab when no one can hit him shows why you need him in there, especially with a tough pitcher. RA shined last year in the 2nd half and it looks like he is doing it again. Sorry!

[LoganBuck]

Since the game is now out of hand, time for a crazy Reds hypothetical:

Who wins in battle between Shackelford, who can't get righties out, and Valentin, who cant hit as a righty?

Both lose, Valentin would strike out, but reach base because of a wild pitch.

[westofyou]

Dude's just a weency bit talented. He absolutely unclothed Texas.
Yeah, according to you right?

BTW here's what BP said about it and they hated the Reds trade too


Disastrously bad deal that this is, the guy with upside in this trade--Cruz--went to Rangers. Maybe this works out if you really believe that Mench can hit outside of Texas, but there isn't a lot of supporting evidence for that, not when he's slugged .503 on his career at home, and .454 on the road.

Where this does work is financially, making this a throwback to... what, the hoary (ahem) days of Sal Bando?

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5360#MIL

[Matt700wlw]

Cincy Heat Advisory

I'm glad I'm inside

[reds44]

Remember, we can't blame Narron. Lineups and pitcher usage don't matter.

Its all about the clubhouse.
Yes and he is the only reason we are above .500.

Nothing to do with the players.

[Cedric]

Remember, we can't blame Narron. Lineups and pitcher usage don't matter.

Its all about the clubhouse.

Not speaking about me.

Pitcher usage is of supreme importance.

Honestly I can't remember anyone saying differently.

Lineups don't honestly matter though, IMO.

[MWM]

How many pitches had Harang thrown going into the 7th?

[Falls City Beer]

Having top-flight talent that is performing at top-flight level tends to make you look smart.

His Lyle Overbay trade was much more praiseworthy than this one, which was essentially selling off one of the better hitters in baseball. That should be fairly easy.

One trade was made for the long-haul (Overbay); the other for the playoff push--he's brilliant manager; every button he pushes seems to be the right one.

And, of course, Melvin is the one who acquired all that "top-flight" talent.

[PuffyPig]

so you think Harang has not shown that he is the real thing? He's a very good pitcher. No, he's not one of the 5 or 10 best in baseball, but he's close and very good.
Just so you know, before todays game, Harang had the 5th best DIPS ERA in baseball, behind Liriano, Webb, Bonderman and Santana.

I don't think people actually are aware of how well Harang has pitched this year He's had terrible BABIP luck all year, but that eventually normalizes.

And Webb, who is in 2nd place, is only .07 ahead of him. Only Liariano is ahead of him by much.

[Matt700wlw]

How many pitches had Harang thrown going into the 7th?

102

[Reds Fanatic]

Bell grounds out to 3rd. 2 outs.

[oneupper]

How many pitches had Harang thrown going into the 7th?

9 too many

[KronoRed]

How many pitches had Harang thrown going into the 7th?
102

[Jpup]

The good news:

Cubs 5
Cards 1

Top 6 1 and 3rd for the Cards
0 outs

They have decided to start throwing at each other again. I love it.

[Falls City Beer]

Yeah, according to you right?

BTW here's what BP said about it and they hated the Reds trade too



http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5360#MIL

As you're quick to point out--there's more to the world than the BP perspective.

[TeamBoone]

How many pitches had Harang thrown going into the 7th?

I don't know but he ended up with 111 (76 strikes), so I'd assume he was over 100.

[Jpup]

Cubs 5
Cards 2

1 out Top 6th

[reds44]

Lineups don't honestly matter though, IMO.
:confused:

So Tuesday lets throw out this lineup.

Freel-LF
Watson-CF
Valentin- 1B
Phillips- 2B
LaRue-C
Clayton-SS
Castro-3B
Denorfia-RF

[LoganBuck]

Harang was at 102 pitches coming into the inning.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hall strikes out swinging. 4-0 Brewers after 7.

[Matt700wlw]

102 really isn't that bad....


The move backfired.

[westofyou]

As you're quick to point out--there's more to the world than the BP perspective.
Yep.. what's the spin on Kevin Mench and a setup guy on a team that is -72 runs?

[Marc D]

Not speaking about me.

Pitcher usage is of supreme importance.

Honestly I can't remember anyone saying differently.

Lineups don't honestly matter though, IMO.

Agree and disagree:

Lineups matter when the best 8 are not in it

Lineups do not matter when the manager consistently leaves pitchers in too long and the other team blows the game open

[Caveat Emperor]

One trade was made for the long-haul (Overbay); the other for the playoff push--he's brilliant manager; every button he pushes seems to be the right one.

And, of course, Melvin is the one who acquired all that "top-flight" talent.

The difference between Milwaukee and Cincinnati, as far as I can see, is that Cincinnati went and ponyed up the cash to keep their superstar left fielder where Milwaukee went and traded theirs away for talent.

You wanna trade Dunn for a setup man and lesser outfielder too?

[Jpup]

John Rodriguez is hurt for the Cards, they will now have to get another outfielder. He is being carried off the field.

[traderumor]

Dude's just a weency bit talented. He absolutely unclothed Texas.
Oh please. Kevin Mench gets a few hits in a new league with a new club and you're like a giddy school girl that just got asked out by the captain of the football team. He got many mediocre players for one top tier player. Just the type of deal that will keep the Brewers the Brewers.

[KronoRed]

:confused:

So Tuesday lets throw out this lineup.

Freel-LF
Watson-CF
Valentin- 1B
Phillips- 2B
LaRue-C
Clayton-SS
Castro-3B
Denorfia-RF
Hmm..Scrappy lineup.

[Mutaman]

This is a lot like the Milton game against the Mets. Doesn'[t anybody on that coaching staff have a feel for when the starter is losing it?

[Falls City Beer]

102 really isn't that bad....


The move backfired.


At this point in the season, with as many innings as Harang has on his shoulder, it's atrocious.

Jerry Narron should be dunked in a bucket of diarrhea.

[Cedric]

Agree and disagree:

Lineups matter when the best 8 are not in it

Lineups do not matter when the manager consistently leaves pitchers in too long and the other team blows the game open

Yeah, I should have wrote that.

Of course you can argue the 8 that play, the order matters not to me.

[oneupper]

102 really isn't that bad....


The move backfired.


He had another good chance to remove Harang after Graffanino singled. Many managers will do that, a "conditional" nod of confidence. If the first guy gets on...the pitcher's out.

[Reds Fanatic]

Castro leads off with a ground rule double.

[Matt700wlw]

Oh please. Kevin Mench gets a few hits in a new league with a new club and you're like a giddy school girl that just got asked out by the captain of the football team. He got many mediocre players for one top tier player. Just the type of deal that will keep the Brewers the Brewers.

You notice he gets more excited about the opponents than he does the team he's supposedly is a fan of?

[Falls City Beer]

The difference between Milwaukee and Cincinnati, as far as I can see, is that Cincinnati went and ponyed up the cash to keep their superstar left fielder where Milwaukee went and traded theirs away for talent.

You wanna trade Dunn for a setup man and lesser outfielder too?

Lee has cusped. Dunn has not.

[Matt700wlw]

He had another good chance to remove Harang after Graffanino singled. Many managers will do that, a "conditional" nod of confidence. If the first guy gets on...the pitcher's out.

I will agree with that.

Starting him in the 7th wasn't neccessarily a bad idea.....

[Jpup]

Sheets is done when Castro takes him to the GAP.

[Matt700wlw]

Jason LaRue couldn't hit a ball off a tee right now.

[Falls City Beer]

You notice he gets more excited about the opponents than he does the team he's supposedly is a fan of?


Because it helped his team!!! How hard is that to understand? He dealt from a strength to pick up a weakness. That's what good GMs do.

[Reds Fanatic]

Larue strikes out looking. 9 Ks for Sheets.

[traderumor]

Lee has cusped. Dunn has not.They offered him $48M for 4 years and he told them no thanks. Was that a part of the master super genius plan to unclothe Texas?

[PuffyPig]

You notice he gets more excited about the opponents than he does the team he's supposedly is a fan of?

Well, I've never believed him to be a Reds fan. He can't be.

[reds44]

Why does LaRue ever play over Ross?

DFA him.

[oneupper]

Sheets is done when Castro takes him to the GAP.

Hmmm...SOMEONE is thinking...

[reds44]

Why you Javy here when you have Ross and Edwin?

[Reds Fanatic]

Valentin pinch hitting for Coffey pops out to 3rd. 2 outs.

[PuffyPig]

Why does LaRue ever play over Ross?

DFA him.

Yeah, then we can pay his $5M salary next year for nothing.

[Red in Chicago]

valentin swinging at pitches like he's 10 feet tall:angry:

[DoogMinAmo]

Javy dumped the pornstache? :thumbdown

[Matt700wlw]

Because it helped his team!!! How hard is that to understand? He dealt from a strength to pick up a weakness. That's what good GMs do.

I really don't care about the Brewers enough to think about it.


They can go back to AL for all I care...they're tired and boring :)

[Caveat Emperor]

Lee has cusped. Dunn has not.

So that ungodly sum of money that Melvin offered Lee was just for show to play up his trade value and not from any real desire to keep him in Milwaukee, right?

Some kind of ruse designed to make the rest of the league look dumb?

[reds44]

Yeah, then we can pay his $5M salary next year for nothing.
Ok so let him play and hurt the team.

[Reds Fanatic]

Freel strikes out swinging. 10 Ks for Sheets. 4-0 Brewers mid 8th. 94 pitches for Sheets.

[PuffyPig]

Because it helped his team!!! How hard is that to understand? He dealt from a strength to pick up a weakness. That's what good GMs do.

Isn't that what the Reds GM did?

[westofyou]

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer
Because it helped his team!!! How hard is that to understand? He dealt from a strength to pick up a weakness. That's what good GMs do.

Unless it's the Reds, then he just gets dumped on despite an obvious improvement.

Last year at this time the Reds were 46-58 right now and -63 in runs this year the Brewers are -72 and 49-55.

Yet they are great?

Freaking hilarious.

[Jpup]

Isn't that what the Reds GM did?

yeah, but that doesn't matter.;)

[Reds Fanatic]

Weathers in to pitch.

[Falls City Beer]

So that ungodly sum of money that Melvin offered Lee was just for show to play up his trade value and not from any real desire to keep him in Milwaukee, right?

Some kind of ruse designed to make the rest of the league look dumb?

I imagined he offered Lee close to what he was worth, at least for 3 of those seasons.

But he was smart enough to fold 'em when he went out of his price range. That's smart.

[Reds Fanatic]

Rivera fouls out to 3rd. 1 out.

[Caveat Emperor]

I imagined he offered Lee close to what he was worth, at least for 3 of those seasons.

But he was smart enough to fold 'em when he went out of his price range. That's smart.

What kind of drooling idiot would he have to be to not trade a player his ownership wouldn't approve paying for?

[Falls City Beer]

Unless it's the Reds, then he just gets dumped on despite an obvious improvement.

Last year at this time the Reds were 46-58 right now and -63 in runs this year the Brewers are -72 and 49-55.

Yet they are great?

Freaking hilarious.

If the Reds had had the injury problems the Brewers have had this season, they'd well over 100 pitches in the run-deficit column.

[alloverjr]

Isn't that what the Reds GM did?

When? Not during this season.

[traderumor]

Here's the funny part. FCB, as Matt has pointed out, you are quick to call the Reds idiots, but serve as an apologist for opponents when they make questionable deals like Melvin just did. He got very little for Lee and I thought he should have traded him early in the season. Maybe he tried and he just could not get any leverage with anyone. But unless you just like bald headed outfielders, Mench is Joe Average OFer, Cabrero was sporting an ERA in the high 4s, and Laynce Nix is a meaningless throw in. It was a position filling deal to keep from getting totally hosed by Lee's unwillingness to sign. Meanwhile, the Super Genius will be using his ticket priveleges to watch other teams play in the playoffs while Texas makes a run for the AL West crown. Yup, they got unclothed.

[Reds Fanatic]

Sheets strikes out looking. 2 outs.

[Jpup]

I imagined he offered Lee close to what he was worth, at least for 3 of those seasons.

But he was smart enough to fold 'em when he went out of his price range. That's smart.

That's not what happenned. Lee didn't want to play in Milwaukee next year and was going to be a free agent. That's what happenned. Melvin wasted his "chips" by dealing Lee for Mench and co. He could have gotten young talent from other places, but he wants to create the illusion that the Brewers can still contend.

[westofyou]

If the Reds had had the injury problems the Brewers have had this season, they'd well over 100 pitches in the run-deficit column.
You'd be a a real fun guy then eh?

[Reds Fanatic]

Clark flies out to the warning track in left. 4-0 Brewers after 8.

[Matt700wlw]

If the Reds had had the injury problems the Brewers have had this season, they'd well over 100 pitches in the run-deficit column.

Been there to many times...

[alloverjr]

Melvin wasted his "chips" by dealing Lee for Mench and co. He could have gotten young talent from other places, but he wants to create the illusion that the Brewers can still contend.

Sounds like Krivsky II.

[Falls City Beer]

That's not what happenned. Lee didn't want to play in Milwaukee next year and was going to be a free agent. That's what happenned. Melvin wasted his "chips" by dealing Lee for Mench and co. He could have gotten young talent from other places, but he wants to create the illusion that the Brewers can still contend.

Thanks for the info. Didn't realize that.

In that case, he got the best deal he could get out of it, IMO. All I know is the Brewers are better than they were before the trade; and the Reds aren't.

[Falls City Beer]

Sounds like Krivsky II.

Except he will contend.

But that's not really the point. He's made his team better now and at least next year.

[Caveat Emperor]

If the Reds had had the injury problems the Brewers have had this season, they'd well over 100 pitches in the run-deficit column.

Most people thought they'd be there even if they stayed healthy.

Many are overdue to give the GM, the Manager, and the Players some dap.

[Reds Fanatic]

Dunn singles to center.

[Matt700wlw]

Except he will contend.

But that's not really the point. He's made his team better now and at least next year.

Brewers are going nowhere this year.

[Reds Fanatic]

Junior homers. 4-2 Brewers.

[Matt700wlw]

Well...this just got interesting again.

:griffey:

:jump:

[reds44]

Junior!

[CTA513]

Junior homers. 4-2 Brewers.

Leaving Harang in looks even worse now.

:eek:

[Caveat Emperor]

Oh yeah -- and Ben Sheets is a potty mouth too. :laugh:

[oneupper]

Junior homers. 4-2 Brewers.


The "battle back" Narron wanted...now he's happy. :rolleyes:

[pedro]

Thanks for the info. Didn't realize that.

In that case, he got the best deal he could get out of it, IMO. All I know is the Brewers are better than they were before the trade; and the Reds aren't.


yeah, don't see it.

IMO, you just saying that b/c it was the Brewers and not the Reds

you'd say anything to denegrate the Reds at this point, it doesn't matter what is actually going on.

[KronoRed]

Finally.

[Reds Fanatic]

Turnbow coming in to pitch.

[Falls City Beer]

Quick call the pope. We may have a miracle in Milwaukee. Reds score on Sheets. I repeat: Reds SCORE on Sheets.

[Matt700wlw]

This would be a good time for Turnbow to suck

[alloverjr]

Except he will contend.

But that's not really the point. He's made his team better now and at least next year.

Don't think he made his team better for either year, but neither did Wayne. I'm not giddy over any of the guys that changed hands in the MIL/TEX trade. I can't say the same for the Reds deal.

[PuffyPig]

When? Not during this season.

Pena for Arroyo???

[Caveat Emperor]

Quick call the pope. We may have a miracle in Milwaukee. Reds score on Sheets. I repeat: Reds SCORE on Sheets.

Well, with as awful as this team is according to you, Sheets might have to go on the DL with a strained ego after giving up 2 whole runs to this team.

:evil:

[Falls City Beer]

yeah, don't see it.

IMO, you just saying that b/c it was the Brewers and not the Reds

you'd say anything to denegrate the Reds at this point, it doesn't matter what is actually going on.

Whatever. Keep thinking it if you want. Whatever makes you feel better.

I was with Krivsky up until his debacle on July 13. But I'm not going to be stupidly and blindly supportive of a guy who just blew a hole in the hull of his own ship.

[Jpup]

Hmmm...SOMEONE is thinking...

hmmmm, it's not over yet.

[alloverjr]

Pena for Arroyo???

Hence why I said "this season". I give Wayne all the credit for that deal, though I wasn't a fan of it.

[LoganBuck]

Ding Dong for Aurillia!

[Matt700wlw]

:aurilia:

:jump:

[Reds Fanatic]

Aurilia homers to left!! 4-3 Brewers.

[alloverjr]

He should be your starting SS for the rest of this year.

[reds44]

Gone!!!!!

4-3!!!!

[traderumor]

If they pull this game out, print the playoff tickets, it may just be our year

[Jpup]

I will say this about Melvin, he can't be too smart if he hired Dan O'brien.

[Matt700wlw]

Hence why I said "this season". I give Wayne all the credit for that deal, though I wasn't a fan of it.

Wayne knows more than you :D