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oneupper
07-30-2006, 06:23 PM
Narron may be a nice person, I'm sure he is. However, IMO (and many others) he does not make decisions to improve the team's probability of winning games and ultimately a playoff berth.
Today's game was another example of playing the probabilities poorly.

Now does this mean "Jerry Lost the Game"? No...we have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been if different decisions had been made. So it's not 100% Jerry's fault and not the team's. But there is a degree of culpability.

In Poker you can't control the cards you are given. But you can play the odds...get the most out of your good hands and not let the bad ones hurt you. That's what separates good players from the bad ones.

Being a fan of probabilities...I'd say Jerry is playing a lot of bad hands. He's still got chips left among other things because he's been lucky...but if he continues to fritter them away playing bad hands...his stack is going to go away quickly.

kbrake
07-30-2006, 06:23 PM
That's one of my beefs.....the lineups don't make a lot of sense at times.

However, they're still winning more than they're losing.

Wouldnt you have to agree though that if you continue to play without your 8 best that it will eventually catch up with us? Or you could look at it like how many more games would this team had won if Edwin was playing everday and Griffey was hitting down in the order and this and that. Everyday people want to puke when they look at Jerry Narrons line-up.

pedro
07-30-2006, 06:23 PM
Not since April. 17-8 in April...you do the math.

They're 10-6 since the trade that "blew a hole in the side of the team"

pedro
07-30-2006, 06:25 PM
Wouldnt you have to agree though that if you continue to play without your 8 best that it will eventually catch up with us? Or you could look at it like how many more games would this team had won if Edwin was playing everday and Griffey was hitting down in the order and this and that. Everyday people want to puke when they look at Jerry Narrons line-up.


and yet Rich Aurilia, of whom I'm no big fan, is hitting something like .350 this month. he sure as hell ain't the Reds problem right now.

reds44
07-30-2006, 06:25 PM
Fine question. He makes plenty of bad decisions in hindsight, in a game that requires 100's of decisions.

At the end of the day, it's more important to look at the big picture, and see the overall record of a team with one of the lower payrolls in the league, no pitching coach, and a AAA collection for a pitching staff.
It wasn't hindsight.

People questioned Narron when he left Harang out their for the 7th, and people questioned letting Castro hit as soon as he did it.

The only logical explanation is that Narron knew he was going to pitch hit Edwin for LaRue and Ross for the pitcher. If he used EE for Castro and Ross for LaRue he would have had to use Deno or Clayton for the pitchers spot.

Now I am one of the people who thinks we will cross that bridge when we get to it, but Narron must have felt more comfortable with Castro then Denorfia or Clayton.

But if that is the case why is Clayton starting everyday over Castro? He certainly isn't a better defender.

reds44
07-30-2006, 06:26 PM
and yet Rich Aurilia, of whom I'm no big fan, is hitting something like .350 this month. he sure as hell ain't the Reds problem right now.
I would not have a problem with Rich starting everyday for this team.

Just not playing 3rd over Edwin.

westofyou
07-30-2006, 06:26 PM
What were the odds Castro would get lucky one more time in the 9th? Baseball is a game of numbers and odds are Castro sucks and shouldnt be allowed to hit in a crucial point in any game.
Speaking of odds, in a study done at Retrosheet looking at 122905 games the amount of times a team wins a game in which they have a 4 run lead in the ninth inning is 99.5%.

So 614 times a team has come back, that's some long odds.

Matt700wlw
07-30-2006, 06:26 PM
Wouldnt you have to agree though that if you continue to play without your 8 best that it will eventually catch up with us? Or you could look at it like how many more games would this team had won if Edwin was playing everday and Griffey was hitting down in the order and this and that. Everyday people want to puke when they look at Jerry Narrons line-up.

Freel RF
Phillips 2B
EE 3B
Dunn LF
Griffey CF
Hatte/Aurilia 1B
Ross C
Clayton/Castro SS


or something like that...

kbrake
07-30-2006, 06:26 PM
Narron may be a nice person, I'm sure he is. However, IMO (and many others) he does not make decisions to improve the team's probability of winning games and ultimately a playoff berth.
Today's game was another example of playing the probabilities poorly.

Now does this mean "Jerry Lost the Game"? No...we have no way of knowing what the outcome would have been if different decisions had been made. So it's not 100% Jerry's fault and not the team's. But there is a degree of culpability.

In Poker you can't control the cards you are given. But you can play the odds...get the most out of your good hands and not let the bad ones hurt you. That's what separates good players from the bad ones.

Being a fan of probabilities...I'd say Jerry is playing a lot of bad hands. He's still got chips left among other things because he's been lucky...but if he continues to fritter them away playing bad hands...his stack is going to go away quickly.


Very well said.

SteelSD
07-30-2006, 06:27 PM
Well, this game thread has certainly turned into a barrel-'o-monkey's fun fest.

Used to be a time when a less highly-strung group of folks could get through a game thread without post-by-post attacks directed at other posters. Used to be a time when posts were scrutinized and responded to using logic rather than venom.

Hey, I'm as prone to being a snide cuss (in fact, that's my official Redszone title), but these recent game threads just plain suck right now at a level I've rarely seen previously. There. I said it. They suck. Oh, I know it's a residual of the Kearns/Lopez swap but at some point we need to get over that board-dividing event and start talking actual baseball again.

reds44
07-30-2006, 06:28 PM
Freel RF
Phillips 2B
EE 3B
Dunn LF
Griffey CF
Hatte/Aurilia 1B
Ross C
Clayton/Castro SS


or something like that...
Freel-RF
Hatte-1B
Edwin-3B
Dunn-LF
Griffey-CF
Rich-2B
Phillips-SS
Ross- C

IMHO would be the best lineup.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:29 PM
Well, this game thread has certainly turned into a barrel-'o-monkey's fun fest.

Used to be a time when a less highly-strung group of folks could get through a game thread without post-by-post attacks directed at other posters. Used to be a time when posts were scrutinized and responded to using logic rather than venom.

Hey, I'm as prone to being a snide cuss (in fact, that's my official Redszone title), but these recent game threads just plain suck right now at a level I've rarely seen previously. There. I said it. They suck. Oh, I know it's a residual of the Kearns/Lopez swap but at some point we need to get over that board-dividing event and start talking actual baseball again.

I agree. The personal attacks are really getting old.

Matt700wlw
07-30-2006, 06:29 PM
Freel-RF
Hatte-1B
Edwin-3B
Dunn-LF
Griffey-CF
Rich-2B
Phillips-SS
Ross- C

IMHO would be the best lineup.

I like that to, but those "moves" (Phillips, Aurila) aren't going to happen

oneupper
07-30-2006, 06:30 PM
Speaking of odds, in a study done at Retrosheet looking at 122905 games the amount of times a team wins a game in which they have a 4 run lead in the ninth inning is 99.5%.

So 614 times a team has come back, that's some long odds.

That's why you try to avoid digging that hole.

reds44
07-30-2006, 06:30 PM
I like that to, but those "moves" (Phillips, Aurila) aren't going to happen
Then you won't see Edwin everyday.

Not that I agree with that.

VR
07-30-2006, 06:31 PM
I called for taking him out before a single pitch was thrown in the 7th. Up over a 100 pitches, he's been abused all season to an almost Dusty-Baker-ish degree...

That labored inning in which he blew away two hitters after getting dinked for two hits? And then got a lazy popup?

I've got to see where being on pace to pitch 225 innings w/ 225 k's, an effortless delivery, and great condition is abuse. If so, somebody better start having sympathy for Brandon Webb, John Smoltz, Roy Oswalt, Roger Clemens, Carlos Zambrano, Chris Carpenter et al.

He's a great workhorse, he's ours. I like that, alot.

Matt700wlw
07-30-2006, 06:31 PM
Then you won't see Edwin everyday.

Not that I agree with that.

He needs to play everyday....I think everybody agrees on that

reds44
07-30-2006, 06:33 PM
He needs to play everyday....I think everybody agrees on that
Everybody but Jerry.


Edwin has made 0 errors since the ASB.

If I remember correctly his last one was @ Atlanta his 1st game off the DL.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:34 PM
That labored inning in which he blew away two hitters after getting dinked for two hits? And then got a lazy popup?

I've got to see where being on pace to pitch 225 innings w/ 225 k's, an effortless delivery, and great condition is abuse. If so, somebody better start having sympathy for Brandon Webb, John Smoltz, Roy Oswalt, Roger Clemens, Carlos Zambrano, Chris Carpenter et al.

He's a great workhorse, he's ours. I like that, alot.

He'll get his 225 innings. No worries there. But even a horse needs to stop and drink at the branch now and again.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:36 PM
That labored inning in which he blew away two hitters after getting dinked for two hits? And then got a lazy popup?

I've got to see where being on pace to pitch 225 innings w/ 225 k's, an effortless delivery, and great condition is abuse. If so, somebody better start having sympathy for Brandon Webb, John Smoltz, Roy Oswalt, Roger Clemens, Carlos Zambrano, Chris Carpenter et al.

He's a great workhorse, he's ours. I like that, alot.

He "blew away" Rivera and Sheets, correct?

VR
07-30-2006, 06:36 PM
He'll get his 225 innings. No worries there. But even a horse needs to stop and drink at the branch now and again.

Right, I'll meet you at the saloon after the season and we can look at that horse's teeth then. ;)

Marc D
07-30-2006, 06:37 PM
He needs to play everyday....I think everybody agrees on that

And I think that is the core of the problem most have with Narron. I know it is for me. Fundamentally I feel he isn't putting his 8 best players on the field every night and because of that, at least for me, I am all over everything else he does.

Personally I accept guys make mistakes, ie a pitcher left in too long or Castro hits in the 9th type thing, they are part of the game. But i get hypercritical when a guy does that ON TOP of leaving one of his best 8 on the bench nightly.

I'm gonna try and fume about Narron more quietly from here out if it helps RZ be a more peaceful place but i still loathe him.

flyer85
07-30-2006, 06:37 PM
Lately, it seems each starting pitching is left in for one inning too long. Been that was all year, the difference now is that the Reds were supposed to have solidified the bullpen with "the trade". Of course that doesn't mean much if the manager is still afraid to use it.

pedro
07-30-2006, 06:38 PM
Well, this game thread has certainly turned into a barrel-'o-monkey's fun fest.

Used to be a time when a less highly-strung group of folks could get through a game thread without post-by-post attacks directed at other posters. Used to be a time when posts were scrutinized and responded to using logic rather than venom.

Hey, I'm as prone to being a snide cuss (in fact, that's my official Redszone title), but these recent game threads just plain suck right now at a level I've rarely seen previously. There. I said it. They suck. Oh, I know it's a residual of the Kearns/Lopez swap but at some point we need to get over that board-dividing event and start talking actual baseball again.

I think it would be great if every other post wasn't about how much Narron sucks. I think it's perfectly ok to question his tactics as many of them are questionable, but this "I hate him", "he's a moron" drivel is getting beyond ridiculous.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:40 PM
I think it would be great if every other post wasn't about how much Narron sucks. I think it's perfectly ok to question his tactics as many of them are questionable, but this "I hate him", "he's a moron" drivel is getting beyond ridiculous.

What should we talk about in a "game thread?" Perhaps it's better just to attack posters and leave the feelings of Jerry Narron alone, eh?

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 06:41 PM
Speaking of odds, in a study done at Retrosheet looking at 122905 games the amount of times a team wins a game in which they have a 4 run lead in the ninth inning is 99.5%.

So 614 times a team has come back, that's some long odds.
How about a one-run lead with no outs in the 9th? More decisions were made at that point then at the time of the 4 run lead.

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 06:43 PM
They're 10-6 since the trade that "blew a hole in the side of the team"
Seriously though, do you think Bray and Maj had a lot to do with that record? Or do you think it was addition by the subtraction of AK and FeLo? B/c I know Bray and Maj (and esp Royce) haven't really been tearing it up.

George Foster
07-30-2006, 06:46 PM
What should we talk about in a "game thread?" Perhaps it's better just to attack posters and leave the feelings of Jerry Narron alone, eh?

How Narron is really trying, and that Larue and Griffey will be back to normal in no time.:laugh:

pedro
07-30-2006, 06:46 PM
What should we talk about in a "game thread?"

As I've said, I don't mind the questioning of strategy, that's what the gamethread is for, but the holier than thou, piss and vinegar vitriol isn't particularily fun to listen too. I know, being a philly guy, that you have a thicker skin for this stuff, but it does wear tiresome on others. Being a student of the english language I'm sure you can appreciate some people's preference for a more "high minded" discourse that doesn't involve the works "suck" and "moron" ever other post.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:47 PM
As I've said, I don't mind the questioning of strategy, that's what the gamethread is for, but the holier than thou, piss and vinegar vitriol isn't particularily fun to listen too. I know, being a philly guy, that you have a thicker skin for this stuff, but it does wear tiresome on others. Being a student of the english language I'm sure you can appreciate some people's preference for a more "high minded" discourse that doesn't involve the works "suck" and "moron" ever other post.

Baseball's my idful break from the brainy stuff. Sorry, but it's a damn sport.

reds44
07-30-2006, 06:47 PM
People saying people shouldn't bash Narron is about as old as people bashing Narron.

He is the manager, he is going to get bashed if we lose. Narron does help himself by some of the choices he makes.

pedro
07-30-2006, 06:49 PM
Baseball's my idful break from the brainy stuff. Sorry, but it's a damn sport.

fair enough.

To me, the Reds are playing above their heads and I'd just like to enjoy it a little. Guess I'll have to do that someplace else because it sure ain't happening here.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:50 PM
Here's what I'll do, since you are obviously the vox populi on this issue: I'll stop talking about the games altogether. I'll just throw out some quips with big words and act all de-la-Hozian.

I'll just seethe with my underground cadre of Narron-haters via PM.

TOBTTReds
07-30-2006, 06:51 PM
Baseball's my idful break from the brainy stuff. Sorry, but it's a damn sport.

You say this as if it is a casual hobby for you. If it was just a "sport" then you wouldn't have almost 11,000 posts about this team. It is a "passion" for a lot of us, and for others like myself, I hope to make a living from the "sport". There is a lot of business involved and that is why there is so much to talk about.

oregonred
07-30-2006, 06:53 PM
Just think what these game threads would have looked like if we lost four games in a row at Wrigley this weekend.

I think what you are seeing is a Reds team that is really a .500 or slightly above average team in its current construct. Every series is a battle and the margin of error one way or the other is very low (goes for about 14 of 16 teams in the NL this season). Even the bottom teams -- the Pirates/Cubs/Nats aren't really cakewalks.

The overall direction is positive. No longer does this team and staff blow up in a series. We've lost three games in the last ten days giving up a winnable 4 runs (2 to Milwaukee and one to the Mets) and the game where Arroyo imploded in Houston with a 5-1 lead. Split those four and we'd be looking at 9 over .500, a nice WC cushion and a 1.5 game Cards lead.

Of the 16 games since the AS Break, really the 4-1 loss last Sunday to Okha was the only game of the 16 that the Reds weren't in the thick of things from the start of the 7th inning onward. That's a good trend.

pedro
07-30-2006, 06:53 PM
Here's what I'll do, since you are obviously the vox populi on this issue: I'll stop talking about the games altogether. I'll just throw out some quips with big words and act all de-la-Hozian.

I'll just seethe with my underground cadre of Narron-haters via PM.



I prefer the terms "joe six pack" or "johnny lunch box" myself.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 06:55 PM
I prefer the terms "joe six pack" or "johnny lunch box" myself.

:confused:

Marc D
07-30-2006, 06:56 PM
I prefer the terms "joe six pack" or "johnny lunch box" myself.

I'd prefer clarification on what exactly it is you are trying to say with that little comment.

pedro
07-30-2006, 07:03 PM
:confused:

Just a less elegant way of saying vox populi, but I do appreciate you're vocabulary, it is top notch.

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 07:04 PM
Just a less elegant way of saying vox populi, but I do appreciate you're vocabulary, it is top notch.

Well, vox populi isn't an insult, if that's what you're intimating. I just take it as you representing the popular opinion that I should just piss off and not say anything on the threads, considering the number of personal insults thrown toward me, as opposed to a public figure like Jerry Narron.

I'd be happy to keep my trap shut; that's basically what you're asking people to do.

pedro
07-30-2006, 07:06 PM
Well, vox populi isn't an insult, if that's what you're intimating. I just take it as you representing the popular opinion that I should just piss off and not say anything on the threads. I'd be glad to.

no not at all.

RFS62
07-30-2006, 07:21 PM
You folks need to simma down now.

http://www.patheticpersonals.com/images/simma.jpg

SteelSD
07-30-2006, 07:36 PM
I think it would be great if every other post wasn't about how much Narron sucks. I think it's perfectly ok to question his tactics as many of them are questionable, but this "I hate him", "he's a moron" drivel is getting beyond ridiculous.

Then might I suggest that we all focus on either debating the point (rather than indicting the poster) or that we simply better pick which battles we need to fight?

Heck, unless you provide reasonable analysis to the contrary, you're not going to change anyone's mind about Jerry Narron at this point. Only Jerry Narron is going to make that criticism stop. And, at the same time, others do have a responsibility to critique his management decisions rather than indict his person.

Problem is that if we go down the path of indicting the person who's indicting the manager we become part of a vicious cycle and pretty soon we're at each other's throats about something that could just as well be ignored and/or reported if it's an actual rules violation. But I know that, as a group, we're better than stooping to trading backhands with each other while watching a freakin' baseball game. Snippy is going to happen from time to time but the current tone is way way beyond snippy.

And about or to a single poster or "camps" of posters. There's enough garbage in this very thread from everyone regardless of their "slant" to start a nicely-sized landfill. Heck, I'd prefer stupid arguments about stats versus observation for the millionth time versus trying to wade through this thread to catch up on any action I might have missed.

PuffyPig
07-30-2006, 07:40 PM
At least we can it end it with some good news. Pirates score in the 10th, after tying it in the 9th, to beat the Giants.

Big Klu
07-30-2006, 07:41 PM
Well, this game thread has certainly turned into a barrel-'o-monkey's fun fest.

Used to be a time when a less highly-strung group of folks could get through a game thread without post-by-post attacks directed at other posters. Used to be a time when posts were scrutinized and responded to using logic rather than venom.

Hey, I'm as prone to being a snide cuss (in fact, that's my official Redszone title), but these recent game threads just plain suck right now at a level I've rarely seen previously. There. I said it. They suck. Oh, I know it's a residual of the Kearns/Lopez swap but at some point we need to get over that board-dividing event and start talking actual baseball again.


I agree with Steel. All of this sniping at each other, "so-and-so sucks", and other toilet-type talk is beyond getting old. I find myself frequenting game threads less often because of it. I also think it is at least partly a by-product of the Washington trade, but we all have to get past that. This is our team now. We have to make the best of it, whether or not we agreed with the deal. (And just for the record, I was OK with the trade.) However, I also think that part of it is that there are some personalities on the board that just can't get along and co-exist with each other. It would probably be best if those people tried not to interact with each other. (Or at least try to keep it on a civil, professional level.)

Now for the game. Like FCB, I thought Harang was laboring, and I probably would have pulled him after 6. I also think that Encarnacion should have pinch-hit for Castro, and Ross should have pinch-hit for LaRue. Denorfia then could have pinch-hit for Weathers. In my opinion, an order of Encarnacion-Ross-Denorfia is superior to Castro-Encarnacion-Ross. Although I disagreed with some of Narron's decisions today, I don't think he is a bad guy or a bad manager. As Pedro said, it's OK to question strategy. But a lot of people on here seem to turn it into a jihad of some sort.


Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
6. Eric Davis - 203
7. Barry Larkin - 198
8. Adam Dunn - 189
9. Vada Pinson - 186
10. Wally Post - 172
11. Gus Bell - 160
12. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 159
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Lee May - 147
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

Big Klu
07-30-2006, 07:42 PM
At least we can it end it with some good news. Pirates score in the 10th, after tying it in the 9th, to beat the Giants.

Way to go, Buccos! :thumbup:

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 07:43 PM
Then might I suggest that we all focus on either debating the point (rather than indicting the poster) or that we simply better pick which battles we need to fight?

Heck, unless you provide reasonable analysis to the contrary, you're not going to change anyone's mind about Jerry Narron at this point. Only Jerry Narron is going to make that criticism stop. And, at the same time, others do have a responsibility to critique his management decisions rather than indict his person.

Problem is that if we go down the path of indicting the person who's indicting the manager we become part of a vicious cycle and pretty soon we're at each other's throats about something that could just as well be ignored and/or reported if it's an actual rules violation. But I know that, as a group, we're better than stooping to trading backhands with each other while watching a freakin' baseball game. Snippy is going to happen from time to time but the current tone is way way beyond snippy.

And about or to a single poster or "camps" of posters. There's enough garbage in this very thread from everyone regardless of their "slant" to start a nicely-sized landfill. Heck, I'd prefer stupid arguments about stats versus observation for the millionth time versus trying to wade through this thread to catch up on any action I might have missed.



Speaking strictly for myself, I threw no "backhands" at a fellow poster. In fact, I've never directly attacked a poster for his or her opinion about the game as it differed from mine.

And maybe I'm dense, but I didn't think the game thread got out of hand. Just my opinion.

I've seen WAY more insulting language in "stats vs. observation" arguments. It's why I generally stay away from those threads. They accomplish nothing.

Arguing the manager's moves in real time is great fun to me. But I guess I'm just a loud-mouthed Easterner.

vaticanplum
07-30-2006, 07:47 PM
When it gets to this point with people in my real life, I suggest a nice beverage. It usually works :beerme:

Falls City Beer
07-30-2006, 07:48 PM
When it gets to this point with people in my real life, I suggest a nice beverage. It usually works :beerme:

No doubt. Johnnie Walker Red, work your magic!

Big Klu
07-30-2006, 07:49 PM
When it gets to this point with people in my real life, I suggest a nice beverage. It usually works :beerme:

No can do. I gave up alcohol over a year ago! :)

vaticanplum
07-30-2006, 08:13 PM
No can do. I gave up alcohol over a year ago! :)

Mountain Dew maybe? It's only about one step away from crack (which, come to think of it, probably isn't such a good idea).

I think the bottom line here is that it's freaking hot out, which is getting to us, and our team is in a pressure-filled situation, which is getting to us. It's been a long time since we had to worry about anything but whether our team would finish 5th or 6th.

This board has only ever added to my enjoyment of the Reds. I am infinitely more aware of the team's weaknesses, of Narron's weaknesses, of the organization's, of brennamen's, of the front office's, of the fans'...and yet still I enjoy this team more. Every single person on this board has something valuable to say, even if it's only to strengthen someone else's resolve to prove him wrong. There are people here who say things that I find inane, and there are people here who have never once said something with which I agree. But they make contributions as worthwhile as anyone who does. The contributions are, of course, best made when they deal with and are founded on baseball and in particular this team. It's hard to avoid veering from that sometimes in this heat (literally and figuratively), but when it happens it's easily ignored. Really it is.

There is a lot wrong with this team right now. There are also some amazing things about this team right now, and they are on an unexpectedly terrific run. There is no way -- NO WAY -- that those things aren't going to lead to some extreme opinions. That's fine. That's love of a baseball team, of anything really. But when anybody starts to get overheated, there's just one thing I recommend: bring it to the middle. We do ALL want this team to win, and yes, we do all want to enjoy that. That's just something we need to remember right now, because even though I think the heat is affecting us and we'll all calm down, somewhere in the karma part of my brain I do believe this team needs good vibes right now, and who better to bring it than the people who love it the most? (many of whom I believe are right here.) Criticism is great. Criticism makes things better. It is best taken and best viewed in perspective when tempered with acknowledgment of the good. We have people here to take care of both of these things. Now remember that and meet in the middle!

I'm serious about that beverage thing though, it really might help us all.

WVRedsFan
07-30-2006, 08:28 PM
Speaking strictly for myself, I threw no "backhands" at a fellow poster. In fact, I've never directly attacked a poster for his or her opinion about the game as it differed from mine.

And maybe I'm dense, but I didn't think the game thread got out of hand. Just my opinion.

I've seen WAY more insulting language in "stats vs. observation" arguments. It's why I generally stay away from those threads. They accomplish nothing.

Arguing the manager's moves in real time is great fun to me. But I guess I'm just a loud-mouthed Easterner.

I agree, FCB. Yeah, it gets tiring reading how people hate Narron or Aurilia or whoever, but it's even more tiring hearing the four posts after that that chastise the poster for saying they hate Narron or this move or the other.

The practice is as old as baseball. I've found fans usually are divided into three groups.

1. Those that get insulted when someone else finds something wrong with their team. "By gawd, he's our shortstop and I'll support him until I die." They rationalize that every little mistake is just baseball and everything is the fault of someone else, either the GM or the owner. They'll defend a team's record by saying something like, "With the (blank) he's had, I think he's done a good job." or "If you were told before the season we'd have this (blank) record, would you have taken it?"

2. Those that want a world championship every year and gripe about every aspect of the team. Here, it's the losing record streak. No Reds team has won more than it's lost since 2000. Every wrong move is proof that the team is going to fall on its face.

3. Those who could care less.

Luckily most people in the game thread are made up of groups 1 & 2. Otherwise, the game threads could get really boring.

Ron Madden
07-30-2006, 08:36 PM
Mountain Dew maybe? It's only about one step away from crack (which, come to think of it, probably isn't such a good idea).

I think the bottom line here is that it's freaking hot out, which is getting to us, and our team is in a pressure-filled situation, which is getting to us. It's been a long time since we had to worry about anything but whether our team would finish 5th or 6th.

This board has only ever added to my enjoyment of the Reds. I am infinitely more aware of the team's weaknesses, of Narron's weaknesses, of the organization's, of brennamen's, of the front office's, of the fans'...and yet still I enjoy this team more. Every single person on this board has something valuable to say, even if it's only to strengthen someone else's resolve to prove him wrong. There are people here who say things that I find inane, and there are people here who have never once said something with which I agree. But they make contributions as worthwhile as anyone who does. The contributions are, of course, best made when they deal with and are founded on baseball and in particular this team. It's hard to avoid veering from that sometimes in this heat (literally and figuratively), but when it happens it's easily ignored. Really it is.

There is a lot wrong with this team right now. There are also some amazing things about this team right now, and they are on an unexpectedly terrific run. There is no way -- NO WAY -- that those things aren't going to lead to some extreme opinions. That's fine. That's love of a baseball team, of anything really. But when anybody starts to get overheated, there's just one thing I recommend: bring it to the middle. We do ALL want this team to win, and yes, we do all want to enjoy that. That's just something we need to remember right now, because even though I think the heat is affecting us and we'll all calm down, somewhere in the karma part of my brain I do believe this team needs good vibes right now, and who better to bring it than the people who love it the most? (many of whom I believe are right here.) Criticism is great. Criticism makes things better. It is best taken and best viewed in perspective when tempered with acknowledgment of the good. We have people here to take care of both of these things. Now remember that and meet in the middle!

I'm serious about that beverage thing though, it really might help us all.

I've already used my two opportunities to give rep points for today. You'll get'em tomorrow. :beerme:

KronoRed
07-30-2006, 08:41 PM
Mountain Dew maybe? It's only about one step away from crack (which, come to think of it, probably isn't such a good idea).

Apple juice for me

I'm an addict :help:

westofyou
07-30-2006, 09:14 PM
How about a one-run lead with no outs in the 9th? More decisions were made at that point then at the time of the 4 run lead.
Sorry, it doesn't work that way, the data looks at leads as they were, not as they were chipped away. That starting point was at 4-0.

RollyInRaleigh
07-30-2006, 09:26 PM
Does Jerry get any credit for the three that they got back?;)

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 09:29 PM
Sorry, it doesn't work that way, the data looks at leads as they were, not as they were chipped away. That starting point was at 4-0.
The whole argument is b/c Jerry was making questionable moves (and non-moves) when the game was 4-3. Leaving your 2-4 hitters in there is usually a lock, so he doesn't really deserve much credit there. So from 4-0 to 4-3 isn't really his doing. The non-PH of Castro was the bad one. So the odds weren't in his favor at the start of the inning, and when they started to move in their favor, JN didn't help the cause.

RollyInRaleigh
07-30-2006, 09:33 PM
And if it would have worked out...................

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 09:36 PM
And if it would have worked out...................
Then he would have gotten lucky. There was no reason for Juan Castro to have hit in the 9th. None at all. He could have hit a 550 ft HR and it still would have been the wrong move.

RollyInRaleigh
07-30-2006, 09:37 PM
Then he would have gotten lucky. There was no reason for Juan Castro to have hit in the 9th. None at all. He could have hit a 550 ft HR and it still would have been the wrong move.

As I expected.

Ltlabner
07-30-2006, 09:40 PM
The practice is as old as baseball. I've found fans usually are divided into three groups.

1. Those that get insulted when someone else finds something wrong with their team. "By gawd, he's our shortstop and I'll support him until I die." They rationalize that every little mistake is just baseball and everything is the fault of someone else, either the GM or the owner. They'll defend a team's record by saying something like, "With the (blank) he's had, I think he's done a good job." or "If you were told before the season we'd have this (blank) record, would you have taken it?"

2. Those that want a world championship every year and gripe about every aspect of the team. Here, it's the losing record streak. No Reds team has won more than it's lost since 2000. Every wrong move is proof that the team is going to fall on its face.

3. Those who could care less.

Luckily most people in the game thread are made up of groups 1 & 2. Otherwise, the game threads could get really boring.


WV,

Why is it if a person doesn't want to hear constant carping they are labled as someone who rationalizes away every little mistake? I can find constant bashing of a player/manager tiresome and still remain objective, find fault, see the short comings, etc.

Why is it if a person sees the world through negative-tinted glasses and views every muffed play as the end of the team labled as someone who hates the team? I can point out every weakness of a player/manager yet still like my team and chear them on.

I don't see "the camps" so black & white.

reds44
07-30-2006, 09:41 PM
As I expected.
So if he used Elizardo Ramirez in the 9th and he hit a homer it would have been a good move?

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 09:50 PM
So if he used Elizardo Ramirez in the 9th and he hit a homer it would have been a good move?
:thumbup: Exactly.

Ltlabner
07-30-2006, 09:56 PM
So if he used Elizardo Ramirez in the 9th and he hit a homer it would have been a good move?

Yep. It resulted in the desired outcome did it not? It's definatley a move with little/zero chance of actually working. A bizzare and foolhardy move, absoutley. But if it acheives the desired outcome, by definition it was the right decision. The poor decision making rationale/process does not negate the fact that the right outcome occured.

There's a big difference between making a good decision and making the right decision. Obviously in the long run sucess is found through making good decisons that result in good outcomes.

That being said, I too would have hit for Castro. Narron has made some odd moves latley.

reds44
07-30-2006, 09:59 PM
Yep. It resulted in the desired outcome did it not? It's definatley a move with little/zero chance of actually working. A bizzare and foolhardy move, absoutley. But if it acheives the desired outcome, by definition it was the right decision. The poor decision making rationale/process does not negate the fact that the right outcome occured.

There's a big difference between making a good decision and making the right decision. Obviously in the long run sucess is found through making good decisons that result in good outcomes.

That being said, I too would have hit for Castro. Narron has made some odd moves latley.
In that case it is perfectly fine to use hindsight when questioning Narron. If you can use it to praise him then you certainly can use it question him.

Just because something works doesn't mean it is the right move. If Elizardo hit a homer it would be a lucky move, not a good one.

George Foster
07-30-2006, 10:03 PM
Arguing the manager's moves in real time is great fun to me. But I guess I'm just a loud-mouthed Easterner.

you are a loud mouth yankee, but your posts and thoughts are what makes this forum so cool. Dare I say as a republican...diversity....

There a some people on this board than have "man love" for Narron and or LaRue. There is nothing wrong with questioning Narron, especially about the line-up or pitching moves. I agree calling him a "A-hole" is unexceptable, but having real concerns and questioning whether He should even be a major league manager is WELL within reason. If you absolutley love what Narron is doing... post it. We will either agree or disagree and debate it. Saying that move "sucked" is just everyday language we all use. Saying Narron or Larue "sucks" is a different manner.

GAC
07-30-2006, 10:05 PM
WV,

Why is it if a person doesn't want to hear constant carping they are labled as someone who rationalizes away every little mistake? I can find constant bashing of a player/manager tiresome and still remain objective, find fault, see the short comings, etc.

Why is it if a person sees the world through negative-tinted glasses and views every muffed play as the end of the team labled as someone who hates the team? I can point out every weakness of a player/manager yet still like my team and chear them on.

I don't see "the camps" so black & white.

I think what is getting to many is that certain subject matter is basically being beat to death on here when it has already been communicated and understood by a majority on this forum.

We get it already! :lol:

Ron Madden
07-30-2006, 10:05 PM
A bad decision is always a bad decision.

Let's leave it be.

Cedric
07-30-2006, 10:07 PM
you are a loud mouth yankee, but your posts and thoughts are what makes this forum so cool. Dare I say as a republican...diversity....

There a some people on this board than have "man love" for Narron and or LaRue. There is nothing wrong with questioning Narron, especially about the line-up or pitching moves. I agree calling him a "A-hole" is unexceptable, but having real concerns and questioning whether He should even be a major league manager is WELL within reason. If you absolutley love what Narron is doing... post it. We will either agree or disagree and debate it. Saying that move "sucked" is just everyday language we all use. Saying Narron or Larue "sucks" is a different manner.

That's deep man.

If someone agrees with your views they are just doing some good ol fashioned questioning. If someone actually takes a different view they have "man love" for Narron.

I don't know what your point was, but it didn't really come across well.

GAC
07-30-2006, 10:10 PM
Then might I suggest that we all focus on either debating the point (rather than indicting the poster) or that we simply better pick which battles we need to fight?

Heck, unless you provide reasonable analysis to the contrary, you're not going to change anyone's mind about Jerry Narron at this point. Only Jerry Narron is going to make that criticism stop. And, at the same time, others do have a responsibility to critique his management decisions rather than indict his person.

If Jesus were the manager, this forum would crucify him all over again. ;)

Marc D
07-30-2006, 10:14 PM
If Jesus were the manager, this forum would crucify him all over again. ;)

If he didn't put his 8 best on the field everynight he'd deserve it.

Ltlabner
07-30-2006, 10:24 PM
In that case it is perfectly fine to use hindsight when questioning Narron. If you can use it to praise him then you certainly can use it question him.

Just because something works doesn't mean it is the right move. If Elizardo hit a homer it would be a lucky move, not a good one.

Uh, I never said you shouldn't critisize/question Narron.

I'm not talking about using hindsight here. I'm simply commenting on the difference between a good decision and the right one (in responce to your post about the Lizzard hitting a homer). The right one is the one that has a positive outcome. The good decision is one that is based in fact and has a high probability of sucess. Obviously if you make enough good decisions you'll end up having a bunch of right ones.

But if someone makes a bad decision and it happens to work out, yes, it is lucky but it doesn't change the fact that it was the "right" decision because it worked. I certinally am not advocating anybody try to use this approach to achieve sucess!

KronoRed
07-30-2006, 10:30 PM
If he didn't put his 8 best on the field everynight he'd deserve it.
He had 12 to deal with, and one was not a team player :D

George Foster
07-30-2006, 10:30 PM
If Jesus were the manager, this forum would crucify him all over again. ;)

John should NEVER hit infront of Matthew, John's OBP sucks and he cannot protect Matthew no matter how much Jesus "loves" playing him every single day.. :laugh:

edabbs44
07-30-2006, 10:40 PM
John should NEVER hit infront of Matthew, John's OBP sucks and he cannot protect Matthew no matter how much Jesus "loves" playing him every single day.. :laugh:
And don't get me started on Judas. It was almost like he was throwing the game.

Big Klu
07-31-2006, 12:40 AM
Mountain Dew maybe? It's only about one step away from crack (which, come to think of it, probably isn't such a good idea).


Nope. On August 9 it will be exactly one year since I gave up all carbonated soft drinks! :)

vaticanplum
07-31-2006, 12:43 AM
Nope. On August 9 it will be exactly one year since I gave up all carbonated soft drinks! :)

:laugh: Then dude, you're just have to going to wait for the team!

CTA513
07-31-2006, 12:47 AM
Brewers players did that fake punch/knock out punch in the bullpen after the Mench homerun. I remember seeing a video of them doing it after Carlos Lee hit a homerun about a week or so ago.

Video: http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/scripts/mediaplayer/mp_tpl.jsp?w_id=508860&w=2006/open/tp/archive07/073006_cinmil_mench_hr_tp_350.wmv&pid=mlb_tp&gid=2006/07/30/cinmlb-milmlb-1&vid=7758&mid=200607301584488&cid=mlb&fid=mlb_tp350&v=2&mType=w&urlstr=&murl=

WVRedsFan
07-31-2006, 12:51 AM
WV,

Why is it if a person doesn't want to hear constant carping they are labled as someone who rationalizes away every little mistake? I can find constant bashing of a player/manager tiresome and still remain objective, find fault, see the short comings, etc.

Why is it if a person sees the world through negative-tinted glasses and views every muffed play as the end of the team labled as someone who hates the team? I can point out every weakness of a player/manager yet still like my team and chear them on.

I don't see "the camps" so black & white.
That's a good question. I tend to side with you.

This society we live in demands black and white, liberal and conservative, God and Satan...you get the picture. One of the many reasons there is no compromise in government or society these days. And like you, I can't understand why a fan who sees what he thinks is idiocy and expresses it is not a "true' fan. Likewise, those who would rather look at the sunny side are considered shills for the team.

I also hate the bickering a lot. I wrote a long dissertation a couple of months ago about the deterioration of the game threads over on Live. It resulted into having a game thread here too. I've watched the game thread deteriorate into almost (but not quite) what it was over there so I give up. Until the Reds are solidly in contention every year, it will be like this. Too much frustration for too long and too much "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude adds to it.

But baseball has always been a game where the manager gets blamed for everything and I hate it that Jerry Narron makes some strange moves that place him in the bull's eye. But that's the price to pay for being the head man.

The camps are blurred from day to day and 1 & 2 tend to blur a lot depending on what day it is.

Eric_Davis
08-02-2006, 06:07 PM
How so? Explain please.



Hmmm. Ever hear of the word slump? Every player goes through this. and the alternatives are Chris Denorfia who apparently can't hit ML pitching and Ryan Freel, who is playing in right today.



How so? I guess the 20 HR's and 50+ RBI's mean nothing? Oh, I get it. It's his fielding. Right? How many errors does he have this year? How many does Dunn have?




You know that? And if I'm not mistaken, the manager makes these decisions, just like the decision to play Rich Aurilia everyday.

Gallagher lives.


Junior's not in a slump. Good players (I'm not even talking about guys who hit in the #3 hole),...NEVER,....EVER....EVER...hit .180 during the month of July with as many at-bats as Junior had during the month and without an injury as an excuse.

Puffy
08-02-2006, 06:28 PM
Junior's not in a slump. Good players (I'm not even talking about guys who hit in the #3 hole),...NEVER,....EVER....EVER...hit .180 during the month of July with as many at-bats as Junior had during the month and without an injury as an excuse.

Yup. Couldn't agree more.

Mike Schmidt sucked as a player as evidenced by his batting .196 for the entire year in 1973 in 373 at bats.

Or Jason Giambi, who two years ago was washed up and hit close to .200 for the entire year.

Or Dave Winfield, who in approximately 26 postseason games (the equivilent of a month) has an average of .208.

Or ARod who has been scuffing lately.

None of them are good players!

Eric_Davis
08-02-2006, 08:12 PM
Yup. Couldn't agree more.

Mike Schmidt sucked as a player as evidenced by his batting .196 for the entire year in 1973 in 373 at bats.

Or Jason Giambi, who two years ago was washed up and hit close to .200 for the entire year.

Or Dave Winfield, who in approximately 26 postseason games (the equivilent of a month) has an average of .208.

Or ARod who has been scuffing lately.

None of them are good players!

You proved my point.

Junior's a horrible player right now.

What a bozo response!

You pulled up Schmidt's rookie year...You pulled up Giambi's Cancer year, and sporadic playoffs appearances by Winfield.

Let me repeat this...

No Good player (and I'm not even talking about guys who hit in the #3 hole) hit .180 in July in as many at-bats as Junior had last month.

And someone brought up the 20 HR"s and 50 RBI's...those are horrible numbers for the #3 hole in the REDS's lineup....that person should have over 65 RBI's...easily.

Part-timer Ben Broussard has better numbers.

Griffey is the yoke around the REDS' team right now...he's pulling them down.

Puffy
08-02-2006, 09:00 PM
Yup, I proved your point. You are just too smart for me and put me right in my place.

No good player has ever slumped for an entire month. At least now I know that kernal of truth from Eric Davis.

Eric_Davis
08-02-2006, 09:18 PM
Yup, I proved your point. You are just too smart for me and put me right in my place.

No good player has ever slumped for an entire month. At least now I know that kernal of truth from Eric Davis.

Again, you make things up.

I said "July, in as many at-bats as Griffey has had", not just any month.


For what it's worth....

Junior's numbers:

300 at-bats from the #3 hole
39 runs
13 doubles
0 triples
21 homeruns
58 rbi's
.238 avg
.294 obp
.490 slg

What the rest of the Reds have produced from the #3 hole:

141 at-bats
26 runs
7 doubles
0 triples
12 homeruns
27 rbi's
.251 avg
.326 obp
.530 slg

MWM
08-02-2006, 09:30 PM
Maybe we should trade Junior for Jason Lane? :evil:

Puffy
08-02-2006, 09:32 PM
Fine - here is the new kernal of truth from Eric Davis - no good player ever slumps for the entire month of July.

Now I know. Sorry to have "made things up"

Puffy
08-02-2006, 09:34 PM
Maybe we should trade Junior for Jason Lane? :evil:

Hey, as long as Thompson isn't included in that deal! He was the second biggest piece of the Kearns Lopez deal ya know.

Puffy
08-02-2006, 09:53 PM
Hey, know who else is not a good player - Bobby Abreu.

Last July (and now I know it HAS to be July) he hit .214 with 1 hr in 95 at bats while the Phils were in a wild card race.

Bad player.