Elizardo is a decent AAA pitcher, nothing more

[redbuck]

Matter of time before his high school fastball caught up with him. And his breaking stuff isn't good either.

The nickname "EZ" refers to how simple it is to hit him.

[TC81190]

100 IP, 110 H, 69 K.

Average numbers, and he is 23 years old, with a fastball that hits 91.

Please.

[redbuck]

Hits 91? Not consistently. He's awful. There's no getting around it. I've tried to root for him, but thought he was a joke from the time he came up last year. He had some good starts this year, but I fear we are seeing the real Elizardo now.

I hope I'm wrong. He just seems very EZ to hit. Not quite Jimmy Haynes-like, but close.

[keeganbrick]

He is young man give him a break. I dont think this team can go into the playoffs and win with him as our #3 this year though.

For our sake I hope Lohse's debut wasnt a fluke.

[westofyou]

Lot's of carrion eaters around here.

[redbuck]

I mean BAD hitters think it's EZ to hit off Ramirez.

[acredsfan]

A high school fast ball does not strike out 7 MLB batters in a row, relax, one bad game and you blow a fuse? Give me a break.

[TC81190]

I mean BAD hitters think it's EZ to hit off Ramirez.

Hilarious! [face_plain]

[acredsfan]

You want to be a good contributor to redszone? Then remember this, think before you post and don't be careless.

[redbuck]

Not just one bad game... he's been bad since last year (with a few lucky starts mixed in).

If some of you think he's good, good for you. My opinion is that he's awful and will never be a good MLB pitcher.

[TC81190]

Not just one bad game... he's been bad since last year (with a few lucky starts mixed in).

If some of you think he's good, good for you. My opinion is that he's awful and will never be a good MLB pitcher.

Even after his first inning, his ERA is still sub 5 and he's 23.

And yes, his FB does hit 91.

[redbuck]

Yes, just like Danny Graves could every once in a while hit 91. But CONSISTENTLY, he was more in the 88-89 range, just like EZ.

[Razor Shines]

He's 23 he's having a bad night. You've got to give him a break. He's been a great surprise for us so far this year, every pitcher has a really bad game like this.
Oh and who was that other guy that actually did have a high school fastball, oh Greg Maddux. 91 is not a High School fastball.

[redbuck]

Once he starts spotting his fastball like Maddux, we might have something. As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit. And for the 100th time, I'm not just talking about tonight. He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.

[TC81190]

Yes, just like Danny Graves could every once in a while hit 91. But CONSISTENTLY, he was more in the 88-89 range, just like EZ.

So, Bronson Arroyo's fastball also is Danny Graves-like? I guess he sucks too.

[redbuck]

His sorry fastball isn't the ONLY reason he is awful. If he had Arroyo's curve ball and/or intensity, he might not be so bad. It's everything put together with Elizardo: tries to hit the corners, but can't. Can't get a fastball by anyone. And they are sitting on it because his breaking stuff is weak too.

Nevermind. I'm done with this. Kill the messenger for stating the obvious. I'll check back in with you next year and see where EZ is at. I'm guessing in AAA, or once again flirting with a 5.00 ERA.

[jimbo]

Once he starts spotting his fastball like Maddux, we might have something. As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit. And for the 100th time, I'm not just talking about tonight. He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.

Huh? Control is one of his better attributes.

You obviously must be talking about just tonight, because the kids has been solid this season for the most part. Stats don't lie.

[TC81190]

His sorry fastball isn't the ONLY reason he is awful. If he had Arroyo's curve ball and/or intensity, he might not be so bad. It's everything put together with Elizardo: tries to hit the corners, but can't. Can't get a fastball by anyone. And they are sitting on it because his breaking stuff is weak too.

Nevermind. I'm done with this. Kill the messenger for stating the obvious. I'll check back in with you next year and see where EZ is at. I'm guessing in AAA, or once again flirting with a 5.00 ERA.

Trying to see how stupid you can make yourself look in one thread?

Guess again. Ramirez's curveball happens to break pretty well.

[Razor Shines]

Once he starts spotting his fastball like Maddux, we might have something. As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit. And for the 100th time, I'm not just talking about tonight. He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.
I wasn't comparing him to Maddux I was just making the point that guys that don't throw in the 90s can be very effective pitchers.

Also incase you were wondering in Maddux's first full season he was 6-14 with a 5.61 ERA.

[westofyou]

Nevermind. I'm done with this.

Did you get enough meat?

[spaethc]

I think Elizardo will still be a decent MLB starter. Probably nothing more than a #3, but could be a solid #3. I am not sure why he has struggled as badly as he has the last two starts. Maybe its just youth and not used to having to face the pressure of a playoff chase. But as others have said, he is only 23, no reason to give up on him because of a couple of bad starts.

[CTA513]

His sorry fastball isn't the ONLY reason he is awful. If he had Arroyo's curve ball and/or intensity, he might not be so bad. It's everything put together with Elizardo: tries to hit the corners, but can't. Can't get a fastball by anyone. And they are sitting on it because his breaking stuff is weak too.

Nevermind. I'm done with this. Kill the messenger for stating the obvious. I'll check back in with you next year and see where EZ is at. I'm guessing in AAA, or once again flirting with a 5.00 ERA.

Arroyo? hes been getting hammered lately.

[Rob Dicken]

Sometimes you get hit, sometimes you don't. That's the way the game works. Arroyo and EZ have been getting hit lately....it happens. They'll break out of it.

[TeamBoone]

Matter of time before his high school fastball caught up with him. And his breaking stuff isn't good either.

The nickname "EZ" refers to how simple it is to hit him.


Hits 91? Not consistently. He's awful. There's no getting around it. I've tried to root for him, but thought he was a joke from the time he came up last year. He had some good starts this year, but I fear we are seeing the real Elizardo now.

I hope I'm wrong. He just seems very EZ to hit. Not quite Jimmy Haynes-like, but close.


I highly disagree, and he's far from a "joke". For being only 23, he's pitched pretty darn well for the Reds this season. It's a long season for a rookie; if he doesn't pitch to his norm next time out, it may be because he's getting tired.

Yup, he got beat up tonight... it happens.

[ChatterRed]

Isn't this the same guy that struck out 7 batters in a row last start?

One bad outing does not make a bad pitcher.

I remember everyone praising the Lizard after his last game.

I can't wait to hear what everyone says when Harang gets shelled sometime soon.

[TeamBoone]

Once he starts spotting his fastball like Maddux, we might have something. As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit. And for the 100th time, I'm not just talking about tonight. He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.

Good Lord, will you give it up!!!!

[Rob Dicken]

Once he starts spotting his fastball like Maddux, we might have something. As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit. And for the 100th time, I'm not just talking about tonight. He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.

Comparing Greg Maddux to Elizardo....? So by this, I guess every 23 year old has to spot pitches like Maddux?

That makes a lot of sense. Have you not noticed that despite control, you can still get hit hard? Take a good look at Maddux's ERA this year. Everything short of wonderful, although he is old.

But, throughout his career, I have seen Maddux get lit up quite a few times. So, spotting isn't EVERYTHING, although helpful.

[cincrazy]

This team is nowhere near this race if EZ doesn't step into this rotation and pitch the way he has. It's a discredit to our former bullpen and this offense that he doesn't have more wins. Elizardo has never pitched this deep into the summer in the majors, let alone in a pennant race. The guy will be fine. His control is good, his breaking stuff is ok, and his fastball is just good enough to keep hitters off balance. He had an awful outing tonight, but the Cardinals were out to prove a point, and Elizardo's still a kid in regards to the game of baseball. He'll bounce back.

[deltachi8]

He's 23 and pitching a level ahead of himself right now. It will happen.

Just really points to the fact that the Reds have amazingly stayed in the race (granted - its a lousy year) with only two reliable starters and an, um, inconsistent bully.

[fearofpopvol1]

Yeah, this is a lame post. If he gives up 2 runs in 7 innings, you'd be kissing his feet. He's struggled as of late, but he's a young kid and he's been more consistent than Claussen. Milton too? I don't know.

Anyone have numbers for EZ and Milton?

[reds44]

100 IP, 110 H, 69 K.

Average numbers, and he is 23 years old, with a fastball that hits 91.

Please.
:thumbup:

People need to stop overracting. He has hit a rough spot over his last 4 starts. He is a young kid learning how to pitch at the big league level. At 23, he really hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet.

[dougdirt]

Just some food for thought here, but who has been the Reds best pitcher this year? Harang is my opinion. Some might say Arroyo. Matter of opinion. It happens.

Aaron Harang has 13 quality starts in 24 starts. He gives you a quality start 54% of the time.
Bronson Arroyo has had 15 quality starts in 24 starts. He gives you a quality start 63% of the time.
Elizardo Ramirez has had 10 quality starts in 18 starts. He gives you a quality start 56% of the time.

[VI_RedsFan]

As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit.

You really need to stop saying that.

[Ltlabner]

:thumbup:

People need to stop overracting. He has hit a rough spot over his last 4 starts. He is a young kid learning how to pitch at the big league level. At 23, he really hasn't even scratched the surface of his potential yet.


Thank you! Some reason would be nice.

Yea, the kid got pounded. But people are acting as if no other team in the history of baseball got routed prior to last night. Somehow I wasn't suprised in the least to see a "EZ sucks" thread before the game even ended.

I'm not excusing the fact that he got destroyed, but overall EZ has been a plesant suprise. It was a huge game, with a lot of hype, and (I think, could be wrong) the first time he'd ever pitched in a game of that magantiude. The kid was nervous and choked.

[NJReds]

Where were all these posts after the Houston outing?

[Heath]

His sorry fastball isn't the ONLY reason he is awful. If he had Arroyo's curve ball and/or intensity, he might not be so bad. It's everything put together with Elizardo: tries to hit the corners, but can't. Can't get a fastball by anyone. And they are sitting on it because his breaking stuff is weak too.

Nevermind. I'm done with this. Kill the messenger for stating the obvious. I'll check back in with you next year and see where EZ is at. I'm guessing in AAA, or once again flirting with a 5.00 ERA.


Wow, bad day last night? Did you drink too much? Prozac run out?

Glad there are people running this ball club that know what they are doing.

[redsmetz]

100 IP, 110 H, 69 K.

Average numbers, and he is 23 years old, with a fastball that hits 91.

Please.

Someone elsewhere derided Ramierez for being nervous before the game. I remind people he's 23 years old and that's still young for most pitchers. I think he's a good find (a rarity in the DOB era) and will prove to be a decent 3/4 pitcher in the Reds rotation. No question they had his number last night. He'll be fine.

[huber14]

Sometimes you get hit, sometimes you don't. That's the way the game works. Arroyo and EZ have been getting hit lately....it happens. They'll break out of it.

do we really have enough time to wait for them to break out of it?

[TOBTTReds]

He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.

Wow, you just admitted to everyone you don't know anything about "stuff".

His control in the zone was definitely lacking tonight, but that doesn't make him an awful pitcher.

[BuckWoody]

do we really have enough time to wait for them to break out of it?
We don't really have a choice at this point. These guys (EZ, Arroyo) are a big reason we are where we are at this point in the season. They'll either "break out of it" or we won't be watching our Reds much this October.

[Jr's Boy]

Location,location,location.The Lizard gets that down and he'll be fine.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

Once he starts spotting his fastball like Maddux, we might have something. As it stands, he is way too EZ to hit. And for the 100th time, I'm not just talking about tonight. He just doesn't have the stuff to be a good MLB pitcher unless he figures out much better control.
You sure like to throw that EZ in there huh

[Will M]

looking ahead to 2007 I think we will need a #3 to go behind Harang & Arroyo.
Ramirez is not progressing into a good #3 SP

Ramirez, Milton, Lohse, Claussen ( if healthy ) can battle for 4/5th starter slots with Bailey hopefully hitting the bigs sometime in 2007.

That means we need to look to the free agent market for both a good SP & a good hitter/defender at SS/2B/CF ( see my post last week )

that is going to cost some change but if Mr C is willing to do it we could have:

Freel CF or 2B
Lugo SS or Tori Hunter CF or someone similar
Dunn LF
Edwin E 3B
Griffey +- Denorfia RF
Hatteberg/Aurillia platoon 1B
B Phillips 2B/SS
D Ross C

Bench: backup C { Valentin is OK }, Castro late inning defense, 5th OF who can run & play defense { idealy a lefty hitter who could play some CF },
+- Olmedo IF

( 14 position players )

Harang SP
Arroyo SP
J Schmidt/Ohka/Meche/someone similar
4/5th starters as above

bullpen:
Bray
Cormier
Coffey
Majik ( when healthy was a solid reliever )
Belisle ( if he can stay healthy ) & losers of 4/5 starter spots

-Will

[VI_RedsFan]

looking ahead to 2007 I think we will need a #3 to go behind Harang & Arroyo.
Ramirez is not progressing into a good #3 SP

Ramirez, Milton, Lohse, Claussen ( if healthy ) can battle for 4/5th starter slots with Bailey hopefully hitting the bigs sometime in 2007.

That means we need to look to the free agent market for both a good SP & a good hitter/defender at SS/2B/CF ( see my post last week )

that is going to cost some change but if Mr C is willing to do it we could have:

Freel CF or 2B
Lugo SS or Tori Hunter CF or someone similar
Dunn LF
Edwin E 3B
Griffey +- Denorfia RF
Hatteberg/Aurillia platoon 1B
B Phillips 2B/SS
D Ross C

Bench: backup C { Valentin is OK }, Castro late inning defense, 5th OF who can run & play defense { idealy a lefty hitter who could play some CF },
+- Olmedo IF

( 14 position players )

Harang SP
Arroyo SP
J Schmidt/Ohka/Meche/someone similar
4/5th starters as above

bullpen:
Bray
Cormier
Coffey
Majik ( when healthy was a solid reliever )
Belisle ( if he can stay healthy ) & losers of 4/5 starter spots

-Will

Nice post. I agree that we should go after a #3 starter. You should add Ted Lilly to that list of possibilities. He's having a solid season and we could use another lefty starter. I also agree that we should go after Lugo and Hunter. I think they could be had for fairly cheap.

[LINEDRIVER]

Hits 91? Not consistently. He's awful. There's no getting around it. I've tried to root for him, but thought he was a joke from the time he came up last year. He had some good starts this year, but I fear we are seeing the real Elizardo now.

I hope I'm wrong. He just seems very EZ to hit. Not quite Jimmy Haynes-like, but close.

EZ is in a slump right now. I'm not worried that we are 'seeing the real Elizardo now'. He's 23 and he has made a lot of progress from last year and he has a lot to learn.

Perhaps EZ learned a lesson last night. A 23-year-old pitcher with not much big league experience does not get to call his own game. Don't keep shaking off the vet catcher because you are afraid to throw the breaking stuff. You just make it easier to get your butt kicked by throwing all or mostly fastballs.

Arroyo has had some good starts this year but he is toting a 6.15 ERA over the last 3 weeks, a 7.85 ERA over the last 2 weeks. Does that mean we are seeing the real Bronson now?

[fisch11]

A "decent AAA pitcher" doesn't strike out 7 consecutive Major League batters.

In my opinion.

[RedEye]

Yes, just like Danny Graves could every once in a while hit 91. But CONSISTENTLY, he was more in the 88-89 range, just like EZ.

When I saw him pitch at Miller Park a month ago, his FB was actually sitting right around 90-91, and he seemed to be able to dial it up to 93 once in awhile too. Possible that the machine was off by 2-3 MPH, but he looked pretty good to me. Of course, 91-93 won't let you make your living on heat, but when he hits his spots, he's pretty tough.

I also think that EZ is a pretty resilient pitcher. I like the fact that even when he gives up 3 or 4 runs in the first inning, he sticks with it and makes it through 5 or 6 innings without giving up another run.

My own jury is still out on this guy, but he wasn't even getting a court appearance last year at this time (sorry about the lame metaphor, but I don't want to backspace... you get my drift). I actually see him as a potential #3 starter if he can manage to keep keeping us in games. Heck, he'd probably have 8 or 9 wins right now if he'd had any sort of luck with run support earlier in the season (he and Bronson have kind of traded places in that regard lately).

The only thing that concerns me about the Cardinals start is the report that he was 'visibly nervous' during the warmup sessions. We don't want a poor man's Brad Radke who folds in big games... that's not much help.

These are my thoughts...

[HumnHilghtFreel]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so sorry if someone has brought this up already, but the kid has only pitched 139.2 innings in the Bigs,102 of those coming this year.That would make him relatively new to this whole thing. People are so quick to just give up on a player. Give him a little time, he's still just gettin his feet wet.

[Blitz Dorsey]

It will be interesting to see how well EZ pitches in Louisville. Has he completely hit the wall, or did he just have a bad stretch against some good lineups?

[FoReel]

Please enough, EEEEEZ off the EZ please.

[paintmered]

It will be interesting to see how well EZ pitches in Louisville. Has he completely hit the wall, or did he just have a bad stretch against some good lineups?

I think he's hit the wall. There really isn't anyone to blame for this. EZ has a small frame and hasn't logged the innings prior to this year to build the stamina needed to pitch 180-200 innings. And so this is what happens.

It isn't a stuff issue. It isn't a talent issue. He's a young guy with a small gas tank. He might be done for this year, but his career should not be written off as a result of these last few starts.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I think he's hit the wall. There really isn't anyone to blame for this. EZ has a small frame and hasn't logged the innings prior to this year to build the stamina needed to pitch 180-200 innings. And so this is what happens.

It isn't a stuff issue. It isn't a talent issue. He's a young guy with a small gas tank. He might be done for this year, but his career should not be written off as a result of these last few starts.

I agree. Maybe they should just rest him and get him ready for 2007... or rest him and get him ready for Sept/Oct if we have any injuries to starting pitchers, or need a long reliever. Definitely too early to write off his career. He's young and was solid for the better part of the year.

[Will M]

but I do think we need another GOOD SP & another hitter { 2B/SS/CF } to really compete in 2007

by good I mean someone who can pitch 220 innings with an ERA under 4

whether we will try to strike gold again in the bargain bin { ie find another B Phillps } or pay for a free agent who has a proven track record is up to Mr C

- Will