EZ tipping pitches

[goGUEST!]

from VIVA la Birdos

"according to bernie, elizardo ramirez was tipping his pitches, giving away his fastball; the cardinals had "a lengthy hitters meeting" about it before the game and applied the knowledge immediately. in the first inning they saw 11 strikes and swung at 8 of them -- and put the ball in play on all 8 swings. didn't just put it in play, either -- roped it, yanked it down the lines and over the wall. only one player (rolen) swung at an off-speed pitch; ev'yone else feasted on fastballs. beginning with the 2-0 pitch to duncan -- which resulted in a single to plate the game's first run -- the cardinals scored 5 runs in a span of 7 pitches.

way to go, scouts."

He was tipping his changeup a month ago

I want Verne and his extensive use of film and analysis back!!!
Tom Hume is just too laid back for a pitching staff of our limited caliber.

[reds44]

I am actually kind of relieved. I'd rahter know he was tipping his pitches then thinking he just sucked.

[jimbo]

I am actually kind of relieved. I'd rahter know he was tipping his pitches then thinking he just sucked.

The disturbing part though is the fact that the Cardinals figured it out, and the Reds pitching coach and scouts did not.

[Team Clark]

I really didn't get to see the Lizard pitch last night but it does not surprise me at all. A lot of the Reds pitchers do it. I'd say 1/2 depending on who's on the DL. Coffey did it and has a tendency to still do it. Something so simple but so important.

[Falls City Beer]

I'm tired of these excuses--no one ever just "sucks." It's always, "he's hurt" or "he's tipping pitches."

Nonsense. He got whipped because he has pedestrian stuff.

[Team Clark]

[QUOTE=goGUEST!]from VIVA la Birdos

"way to go, scouts."

He was tipping his changeup a month ago
QUOTE]

Also funny that you say that. I was in my car when I heard the Reds were down 9-1. I laughed and said out loud. "Way to go Mike (Jorgensen) you nailed 'em again." Jorgensen is probably one of the top 3 Pro Scouts in the business. He doesn't miss a thing. If he left, Dave Duncan would throw himself on a sword.

[Roy Tucker]

He got whipped because he has pedestrian stuff.
You mean he walks a lot of batters? :cool:

[Newman4]

Well, he could throw a breaking ball at some point. Even Chris noticed that he was apparently struck on establishing the fastball or something. I was ticked from the very start with Belliard hitting a double. Whoever is the Reds advance scouts in charge of watching Ronnie Belliard should graciously resign b/c you DO NOT throw him fastballs!!! He can't hit the breaking ball, but everytime I watch him play the Reds somebody tosses him a big, get ahead fastball that he hits early in the count.

[NJReds]

You mean he walks a lot of batters? :cool:

I thought he was just BABIP unlucky, myself. ;)

[MaineRed]

I'm tired of these excuses--no one ever just "sucks." It's always, "he's hurt" or "he's tipping pitches."

Nonsense. He got whipped because he has pedestrian stuff.

Well they are called opinons and everyone is allowed to have them.

Could you please send your resume to the Reds so we can go 162-0 and get it over with.

[BRM]

Well they are called opinons and everyone is allowed to have them.


Everyone except FCB apparently.

[MaineRed]

Oh yeah, nobody ever lets him say anything.

[BRM]

Oh yeah, nobody ever lets him say anything.

He seems to be catching alot of flak lately. That's all I'm saying.

[TOBTTReds]

Oh yeah, nobody ever lets him say anything.

Those aren't opinions. They are fact! :help:

[Always Red]

I really didn't get to see the Lizard pitch last night but it does not surprise me at all. A lot of the Reds pitchers do it. I'd say 1/2 depending on who's on the DL. Coffey did it and has a tendency to still do it. Something so simple but so important.
The Reds really need a pitching coach. Not so sure Hume can handle both BP coach and pitching coach roles.

Wonder if Vern Ruhle will be back next year? I'm sure the Reds are sensitive to holding his position for him, until he gets better. Maybe they can assign an "interim" pitching coach?

[MaineRed]

He seems to be catching alot of flak lately. That's all I'm saying.

He seems to run around asking for it, thats all I'm saying.

[BRM]

He seems to run around asking for it, thats all I'm saying.

By stating his opinion? I don't see him asking for anything personally.

[TeamBoone]

Actually, Chris Welsh mentioned something last night that sort of relates to this. He didn't say ER was tipping his pitches, but he did say something along the same line (paraphrasing here, because he said more than I can remember right now)... something like the Cardinals scouts must have been watching him extremely closely because the players seem to know exactly what pitch he's going to throw at just about any time.

[Bonzo]

I'm tired of these excuses--no one ever just "sucks." It's always, "he's hurt" or "he's tipping pitches."

Nonsense. He got whipped because he has pedestrian stuff.

The story is coming from a Cardinals site.

[redsmetz]

The Reds really need a pitching coach. Not so sure Hume can handle both BP coach and pitching coach roles.

Wonder if Vern Ruhle will be back next year? I'm sure the Reds are sensitive to holding his position for him, until he gets better. Maybe they can assign an "interim" pitching coach?

Tommy is listed as Interim Pitching Coach and Lee Tunnell is listed as Interim Bullpen Coach. I had a thread I started about next year's coaching staff and this seems to be priority No. 1. I'm not sure about whether Ruhle will be able to return.

[LetsGoReds11]

Chris Welsh was noticing EZ throw his fastball as much as everyone else did who was watching the game. EZ was afraid to throw his curveball and off speed stuff because he was nervous. He didn't want to walk anyone so he threw his fastball most of the first inning. When EZ was warming up in the bullpen before the game someone said they noticed he was nervous. This opening game of a this series was huge, and they let a young kid go out there and try to conquer the world. I really think Narron should have moved someone into his slot to take the first game of this series. EZ could very well lost a lot of confidence he had going into this game and only time will tell if he still has any confidence left.

[Mitri]

Welsh also said he hadn't seen a Reds pitcher get hit that hard since Jimmy Haynes, which is true.

[registerthis]

Oh yeah, nobody ever lets him say anything.

What's with the vendetta?

[LINEDRIVER]

EZ was shaking off Valentin in the first-inning. What is up with that? Maybe he's gettin a bit cocky? Valentin was seen having a discussion with EZ in the dugout after the top of the first.

I really dont know what has happened to the days of a veteran catcher taking control of the game and/or going to the mound to chew somebody's ass. The situation needs a better handling then and there, not in the dugout after a bunch of runs have scored.

[LetsGoReds11]

He was probably not getting cocky at all. EZ was not comfortable throwing his off speed stuff to these Cardinals hitters. Possibly from inexperience and being nervous but either way he wanted to throw his fastball.

[Blitz Dorsey]

I like Tom Hume as the pitching coach. I think he is doing a solid job with a mediocre staff. I love Harang and Arroyo (they will have ups and downs but both are solid) but 3-5 we are really hurting. Hume has been good IMO. I hope he remains in the position for a few years.

[keeganbrick]

Chris Welsh was noticing EZ throw his fastball as much as everyone else did who was watching the game. EZ was afraid to throw his curveball and off speed stuff because he was nervous. He didn't want to walk anyone so he threw his fastball most of the first inning. When EZ was warming up in the bullpen before the game someone said they noticed he was nervous. This opening game of a this series was huge, and they let a young kid go out there and try to conquer the world. I really think Narron should have moved someone into his slot to take the first game of this series. EZ could very well lost a lot of confidence he had going into this game and only time will tell if he still has any confidence left.
By this you mean having him pitch on his scheduled night to pitch?

[fisch11]

I don't know how to take it when rumors fly around that a pitcher "tips his pitches." That's what the Mets said about Danny Graves when they picked him up last year. We all know that story.

[jimbo]

I don't know how to take it when rumors fly around that a pitcher "tips his pitches." That's what the Mets said about Danny Graves when they picked him up last year. We all know that story.

Yeah, he's still tipping them in the minor leagues.

[MaineRed]

I don't know how to take it when rumors fly around that a pitcher "tips his pitches." That's what the Mets said about Danny Graves when they picked him up last year. We all know that story.

I hear you, but this wasn't the Reds making excuses, this appears to come from the other team, right?



What's with the vendetta?

If you really want to discuss this, PM me.

[lucky bugle boy]

from VIVA la Birdos

"according to bernie, elizardo ramirez was tipping his pitches, giving away his fastball; the cardinals had "a lengthy hitters meeting" about it before the game and applied the knowledge immediately. in the first inning they saw 11 strikes and swung at 8 of them -- and put the ball in play on all 8 swings. didn't just put it in play, either -- roped it, yanked it down the lines and over the wall. only one player (rolen) swung at an off-speed pitch; ev'yone else feasted on fastballs. beginning with the 2-0 pitch to duncan -- which resulted in a single to plate the game's first run -- the cardinals scored 5 runs in a span of 7 pitches.

way to go, scouts."

He was tipping his changeup a month ago

I want Verne and his extensive use of film and analysis back!!!
Tom Hume is just too laid back for a pitching staff of our limited caliber.

This just quoted by Marty! Kudos to whoever sent that in.

[kaldaniels]

For anyone out there...what are some ways of tipping pitches...I'm just curious what to look for.

[dougdirt]

Kaldaniels, there are many different signs. Hand positioning, positioning of the glove pre pitch, where the glove comes to rest at.... Just off the top of my head those are some of the ones that jumped out at me.

[Redeye fly]

I don't know how to take it when rumors fly around that a pitcher "tips his pitches." That's what the Mets said about Danny Graves when they picked him up last year. We all know that story.

But there is one difference. All of us knew that Graves was simply cooked at that point, mentally and physically. Elizardo is a young pitcher who may be tipping his pitches or may just be going through some inconsistency as a young, but still developing pitcher.

Either way, I find the theory that Elizardo is tipping his pitches more believeable than the theory that Graves was doing the same.

[Jpup]

I thought the same exact thing when I was watching the game. The Cardinals were swinging very early in the count.

Todd Coffey has been much better since TC informed us about him tipping his pitches. I haven't looked at his numbers since the last trip to Atlanta, but they have improved, a ton, I would think.

[Reds Nd2]

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060808&content_id=1599445&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin


CINCINNATI -- Seeking an explanation for why Reds pitcher Elizardo Ramirez was roughed up so badly against the Cardinals on Monday, Reds pitching coach Tom Hume and bullpen coach Lee Tunnell decided to analyze videotape.
In Monday's 13-1 loss, St. Louis hitters appeared to be sitting on nearly all of Ramirez's pitches. The righty allowed seven runs -- six earned -- over 1 2/3 innings. It was a 5-0 game after just 12 pitches were thrown.

In a bullpen session a couple of weeks ago, Hume noticed Ramirez had tipped some of his pitches -- and showed a different look when throwing fastballs and changeups.

[dabvu2498]

Narron: 'E-Z' not tipping his pitches
By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

CINCINNATI — Despite giving up 29 earned runs in his last 35 innings, despite giving up four runs on his first eight pitches to the St. Louis Cardinals Monday, despite the possibility he might be tipping his pitches, Elizardo Ramirez will trudge to the mound in Philadelphia Saturday.

The Cardinals hammered Ramirez for five runs in the first inning and all eight batters that inning connected with hard swings the first time they swung.

Scott Rolen, who doubled in the first inning, was asked if the Cardinals were looking for first-pitch fastballs and he said, "Not really." Then he smiled.

Cincinnati manager Jerry Narron said pitching coach Tom Hume and bullpen coach Lee Tunnell went over and over the tapes of Ramirez's 12/3 innings to see if he was tipping pitches.

"But all they saw was what we all saw — he was throwing the ball right into the wampum zone, is what I think," Narron said.

Nevertheless, "Our plan right now is for E-Z (4-8, 4.93) to go back out there. I'm not concerned that he is 23 and might be pitching too many innings. I'm only concerned when his innings are not as much as we'd like."

Of the prospect of tipping his pitches, Narron said, "Hume and Tunnell spent a lot of time just to see if he might have been doing something to give away pitches, that type of thing."

They didn't see anything.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/sports/reds/daily/080906redsnotesweb.html