8/11/06 - Reds vs. Phillies - Game Thread

[Puffy]

I agree. Griffey is hurting this team much more than Narron.

B.S.

You hate Junior - we get it. But don't say stupid things.

Man, the Junior hate is getting to epic proportions lately.

[RedsMan3203]

He started on Tuesday so that makes tomorrow his day.

:devil:

Oh... Coudln't be a better time..... :thumbup:

[oregonred]

The one positive takeaway is Lohse looked really good again and had some nice stuff.

Hoping for rotation lightning in the bottle.

[flyer85]

Homer Bailey

clap clap clap clap clapI'm tellin ya. Joe Mays will be on the mound.

It is his scheduled day, he pitched on Monday

[cReds1]

B.S.

You hate Junior - we get it. But don't say stupid things.

Man, the Junior hate is getting to epic proportions lately.


Hmmmmmmmmm

reminds me alot of the Larkin bashers, were you one of them?

[RedsMan3203]

Its only 1 game guys... We'll get em tomorrow.

[reds44]

I'm tellin ya. Joe Mays will be on the mound.

It is his scheduled day, he pitched on Monday
Why? We already know he sucks. I'd rather see Gosling up here.

[oregonred]

Its only 1 game guys... We'll get em tomorrow.

Yeah but 2.5 gamethreads :laugh:

[reds44]

Its only 1 game guys... We'll get em tomorrow.
I'm tired of that. These 1 games are piling up into a whole lot of games.

[flyer85]

He started on Tuesday so that makes tomorrow his day.

:devil:no, that would make Sunday his day.

Mays is on schedule to pitch Saturday. He will be here tomorrow.

[RBA]

Stop pointing fingers. This is a....



TEAM LOSS

[KronoRed]

I could see Mays being brought back, Krivsky is a big fan of his

[George Foster]

B.S.

You hate Junior - we get it. But don't say stupid things.

Man, the Junior hate is getting to epic proportions lately.

You love Junior we get it.

How is he helping this team?

[Fullboat]

Narron can't even yell at his players tonight.Stupid Is As Stupid Does.

[reds44]

no, that would make Sunday his day.

Mays is on schedule to pitch Saturday. He will be here tomorrow.
Oh crap you're right.


my bad

[flyer85]

Why? 2 reasons. Krivsky likes him and its his turn.

And yes, he does suck. I'm just telling you what is going to happen, not defending it.

[RedsMan3203]

Oh crap you're right.


my bad


oh geee thanks for leading me on.

[edabbs44]

say hello to Joe Mays back to Cincy and EZ back to AAA
:barf:

[alloverjr]

no, that would make Sunday his day.

Mays is on schedule to pitch Saturday. He will be here tomorrow.


Belisle maybe? Gotta be a better option than Mays.

[flyer85]

Narron can't even yell at his players tonight.Stupid Is As Stupid Does.and baseball is like a box of chocolates.

[Matt700wlw]

You love Junior we get it.

How is he helping this team?


Right now...he's not.

[reds44]

Stop pointing fingers. This is a....



TEAM LOSS
Not Edwin's fault. Not Loshe's fault. Not Weathers' fault. Not Harang's fault. Not Milton's fault. Not Arroyo's fault. Not Cormier's fault. Not Javy's fault. Not Franklin's fault.

[flyer85]

Belisle maybe? Gotta be a better option than Mays.he is in no way ready to pitch 7 innings.

[reds44]

oh geee thanks for leading me on.
:laugh:

my bad.

[edabbs44]

Man, the Junior hate is getting to epic proportions lately.
So has his slump.

[Puffy]

Griffey is nowhere near the best player on this team

Edwin, Dunn, Hatteberg, and Freel are all better. Ross might be better.

Whatever - I guarantee if you ask Edwin, Dunn, Hatteberg or Freel who the best player on the Reds is all of them say Junior.

I'll take their opinion before yours. Cause the only one better is Dunn. Junior is having a down year. Thats it. You people are the same people who would have dumped Giambi after his year two years ago. The same people who would dumped Clemens from Boston. The same people who would have dumped Molitor. Or Schmidt.

[WVRedsFan]

B.S.

You hate Junior - we get it. But don't say stupid things.

Man, the Junior hate is getting to epic proportions lately.

Notice that Junior is over the hill and the same performance from Dunn is just the way it goes? David Ross, who continues to be a defensive liability (how many throws from the outfield has he not caught or muffed), is better than Junior.

Junior is 36 and not what he once was (none of us are unless you happen to be under 25), but this hatred is getting old fast. Look at the bench and who there is better than Junior?

[RedsMan3203]

he is in no way ready to pitch 7 innings.

Is anyone anywhere that could put a reds uniform on ready to pitch 7 innings?

[Fullboat]

The one positive takeaway is Lohse looked really good again and had some nice stuff.

Hoping for rotation lightning in the bottle.

Another postive I Hope , EE never gets benched again.:bang:

[alloverjr]

he is in no way ready to pitch 7 innings.

Doesn't need to. Get 3 and call it a day. That's all you're going to get with Mays with worse results. If the bullpen can't gover the rest of theinnings than shoot JN for wasting EZ (not that I'm at all comfortable with him pitching anyway).

[reds44]

Whatever - I guarantee if you ask Edwin, Dunn, Hatteberg or Freel who the best player on the Reds is all of them say Junior.

I'll take their opinion before yours. Cause the only one better is Dunn. Junior is having a down year. Thats it. You people are the same people who would have dumped Giambi after his year two years ago. The same people who would dumped Clemens from Boston. The same people who would have dumped Molitor. Or Schmidt.
Good for them.

stats say otherwise.

Excuse me for having an opinon.

[Puffy]

Hmmmmmmmmm

reminds me alot of the Larkin bashers, were you one of them?

No, I wasn't - but thanks for asking.

[flyer85]

Jr would get a lot less grief if Narron would just see the light and move him out of CF and down in the order. It is daily denial to keep him where he is at. A lot of guys have moved to new positions and batted in another spot in the order as their skills have declined. Narron doing nothing is simply using the ostrich approach.

[edabbs44]

Notice that Junior is over the hill and the same performance from Dunn is just the way it goes? David Ross, who continues to be a defensive liability (how many throws from the outfield has he not caught or muffed), is better than Junior.

Junior is 36 and not what he once was (none of us are unless you happen to be under 25), but this hatred is getting old fast. Look at the bench and who there is better than Junior?
No one wants Junior on the bench...most want him to drop in the order. How many .241 hitters are guaranteed the 3 slot in the lineup everyday?

[flyer85]

Doesn't need to. Get 3 and call it a day. That's all you're going to get with Mays with worse results. If the bullpen can't gover the rest of theinnings than shoot JN for wasting EZ (not that I'm at all comfortable with him pitching anyway).whoever the starter is will be out there for at least 6 even if it means taking a major beating.

[KronoRed]

he is in no way ready to pitch 7 innings.
5 and a monsoon

[RBA]

Not Edwin's fault. Not Loshe's fault. Not Weathers' fault. Not Harang's fault. Not Milton's fault. Not Arroyo's fault. Not Cormier's fault. Not Javy's fault. Not Franklin's fault.


Okay, TEAM LOSS minus Edwin, minus Loshe, minus Weathers, minus Harang, minus Milton, minus Arroyo, minus Cormier, minus Javy, minus Franklin.

[SteelSD]

my point is there is no difference made in the rule book.

"with a man on 1st and 2nd or 1st,2nd, and 3rd with one out or no out and the ball hit on the fly in the infield, the batter is automaticly out."

The officials have to signal an Infield Fly. The difference is based on subjective interpretation and clear line drives need not apply as Infield Flies.

Based on the rules of the game, Aurilia could have dropped that line drive and if he had made it look unintentional (a similar subjective ruling), he'd have had a DP or TP. The worst that could have possibly happened was that the batter would have still been out and the runners would have returned to their original bases.

The smart thing for Aurilia was to make it look like the ball handcuffed him, pick the ball up and fire it to Home Plate. If the Umpires rule that the play was an "intentional" drop, the Reds wouldn't have been out anything.

[reds44]

whoever the starter is will be out there for at least 6 even if it means taking a major beating.
Which isn't good since we can't be giving away games.


I agree with what you say though.

[Puffy]

Jr would get a lot less grief if Narron would just see the light and move him out of CF and down in the order. It is daily denial to keep him where he is at. A lot of guys have moved to new positions and batted in another spot in the order as their skills have declined. Narron doing nothing is simply using the ostrich approach.

You're right - and I staed before the year started that Junior should be in left and Dunn should be at first and Deno should have been in Center.

But that doesn't excuse the abuse Junior takes on here. Its BS. He's one of the best ever and he's struggling, yet people treat him like garbage, and thats wrong, IMO

[RedsMan3203]

Skip EZ - Move Milton up a day... let him pitch tomorrow.

[alloverjr]

whoever the starter is will be out there for at least 6 even if it means taking a major beating.

If that's the mentality of the staff then don't waste a roster move. Let Franklin or EZ get lit up for 6.

[oregonred]

Okay, TEAM LOSS minus Edwin, minus Loshe, minus Weathers, minus Harang, minus Milton, minus Arroyo, minus Cormier, minus Javy, minus Franklin.

yeah, Cormier was great tonight :D

I'd like to thank Juan Castro for his strenuous half inning of defense tonight.

Excellent work oros de mano!!!

[RedsMan3203]

Skip EZ - Move Milton up a day... let him pitch tomorrow.



Great Idea - Then Homer can pitch Sunday and with the off day Harrang goes Tuesday.

[flyer85]

Skip EZ - Move Milton up a day... let him pitch tomorrow.things are bad enough, screwing around with the rotation will only make it worse.

I'd really like to know, where was Cormier? (best reliever in the NL)

[Fullboat]

We got Cards next week.We can't mess with our rotation to much.

[oregonred]

Great Idea - Then Homer can pitch Sunday and with the off day Harrang goes Tuesday.

I like it

[edabbs44]

You're right - and I staed before the year started that Junior should be in left and Dunn should be at first and Deno should have been in Center.

But that doesn't excuse the abuse Junior takes on here. Its BS. He's one of the best ever and he's struggling, yet people treat him like garbage, and thats wrong, IMO
There's a difference btw "struggling" and just not having much left anymore. 2+ months of sub-mediocre performance hints at the latter. The guy is hitting .241. If it was May, I'd be with you. It is August.

[Puffy]

Notice that Junior is over the hill and the same performance from Dunn is just the way it goes? David Ross, who continues to be a defensive liability (how many throws from the outfield has he not caught or muffed), is better than Junior.

Junior is 36 and not what he once was (none of us are unless you happen to be under 25), but this hatred is getting old fast. Look at the bench and who there is better than Junior?

Come on WV - there all better than Junior. Castro, according to most on here, is better than Junior.

You should know that from reading all the smart people on this board.

[flyer85]

If that's the mentality of the staff then don't waste a roster move. Let Franklin or EZ get lit up for 6.it will be Mays for one start and then back to AAA and I would not be surprised to see Franklin take the EZ's spot in the rotation

[Puffy]

There's a difference btw "struggling" and just not having much left anymore. 2+ months of sub-mediocre performance hints at the latter. The guy is hitting .241. If it was May, I'd be with you. It is August.

You're right - so lets throw out last year, lets throw out earlier in the year, lets throw out the WBC where he was the best player on the team and just face the facts - he is done. No player has ever had a bad year.

Clemens when he was in Boston was finished. Paul Molitor, before he went to the Blue Jays, was finished. Dave Parker, in 1984 was done.

I mean all these guys didn't just have one bad year, they had a season and a half. They sucked!

[oregonred]

I think everyone here wants Junior to succeed. Many are frustrated.

With the "trade" and the "playoff" chase he's needed now more than ever to help carry this team.

Since the team's high water mark at 36-24, he's been simply abyssmal for two months and it hasn't been fun to watch it unfold.

[Puffy]

I think everyone here wants Junior to succeed.

I doubt that. I really doubt it.

I wish it were true, Oregon Red - but after reading the board every day for the past 5 years, and especially this year, I doubt it.

[LawFive]

Just got off work and skimmed the thread, so sorry if this is a duplicate question...but where was Cormier tonight?

[reds44]

Just got off work and skimmed the thread, so sorry if this is a duplicate question...but where was Cormier tonight?
I heard his ankle is still bothering him.


:lol:

[flyer85]

but where was Cormier tonight?I think Jerry forgot about him. No reason, outside of injury why he would not pitch the 14th.

[edabbs44]

You're right - so lets throw out last year, lets throw out earlier in the year, lets throw out the WBC where he was the best player on the team and just face the facts - he is done. No player has ever had a bad year.

Clemens when he was in Boston was finished. Paul Molitor, before he went to the Blue Jays, was finished. Dave Parker, in 1984 was done.

I mean all these guys didn't just have one bad year, they had a season and a half. They sucked!
How long should we wait for him to get his mojo back? Drop him in the order...that is all we ask. Hell, ARod gets moved all over the place when he isn't hitting. This guy is locked into the 3 hole for no apparent reason. We all know he has talent, but EE makes one error and the guy is banished to the bench for weeks. Jr's avg drops 50 points in 2 months and...nothing. I couldn't care less about his past at this point. HE ISN'T PRODUCING. Case closed. When he starts to hit, then he can have his sacred 3rd spot back.

[marcshoe]

Just got off work and skimmed the thread, so sorry if this is a duplicate question...but where was Cormier tonight?

Sitting in the bullpen, Coloring part of a baseball with an orange magic marker, if you want a literal answer. :eek:

[WVRedsFan]

Come on WV - there all better than Junior. Castro, according to most on here, is better than Junior.

You should know that from reading all the smart people on this board.

Same guys who said Denorfia was the second coming of Willie Mays???:evil:

[BCubb2003]

Not wallow in the misery, but I'd be curious to see a win expectancy chart for this game.

[flyer85]

Not wallow in the misery, but I'd be curious to see a win expectancy chart for this game.it is now zero.

[marcshoe]

Just got off work and skimmed the thread, so sorry if this is a duplicate question...but where was Cormier tonight?


The midget in Jerry Narron's head told him not to pitch Cormier.

[flyer85]

If Cormier was unavailable then Franklin should have stayed in the game.

[flyer85]

tonight was a night where the life may have really drained out of this team.

[vaticanplum]

tonight was a night where the life may have really drained out of this team.

Physically, I'll give you that. But I don't think this was as emotionally draining as it feels to us watching 15 innings. Look, they got a surprisingly good performance from Lohse, and as unbelievably stupidly as the bullpen was used, they didn't give up a run from the 10th to the 15th...sometimes in scary situations.

They were bound to be tired. I'm not happy about the way this team was used and physically it could end up being very problematic. But in terms of the "life" being drained out of this team...this loss in no way feels as emotionally devastating to me as last Monday's. And we saw how they came back from that.

This team actually seems to get fired up by big losses. It's the great wins that bring them down the next day.

[reds44]

I am still baffled about taking Edwin out and walking Howard.

[WVRedsFan]

NO, this was the death rattle and why:

Somehow, Narron and Hume (if he has any input, which I doubt) overused a pitching staff that has been overused all season. Coupled with an 8-49 hitting performance (.164 BA), the Reds squandered a bases loaded inning twice, swinging at ball four on no less than five ocasions when the base would have provided ways to score and inane juggling of personnel that defies descripton.

If Narron were in management in a major corporation, he'd be fired on the spot. The removing of people who were hitting and his game management in the final innings makes Boone and Miley look...well...equal, though I can't imagine Miley and Boone making some of the moves he did. I've griped about McKeon, but at least he knew baseball. Miley and Boone were fodder, but at least the front office didn't have the intestinal fortitude to offer either extensions (except Miley--I forgot about hat) and they ran Jack off--the omore things change the more they stay the same it seems.

Now, we are faced with two starters out of sequence and our two biggest RBI men in horrendous slumps. This may be the start of a meltdown. But, like the apologists exclaim time after time, it is only one game. Every two games it seems, it's a loss. And the record since June 3rd, when they were 31-24 is 28-33, the .459, below his career percentage as a major league manager (.475).

Someone said tonight that stupid is as stupid does. That just may apply to the front office as well as the field management and the team in general.

We're toast.

[Falls City Beer]

This thread has 1317 posts.

[Big Klu]

My observations:


Kyle Lohse has impressed me in his two starts with the Reds. It seems like he has good stuff, and he keeps the ball down in the zone. I think he has solidified his hold on the #4 spot in the rotation (after Harang, Arroyo, and Milton).

Edwin Encarnacion has really stepped up and asserted himself as the 3B on this club. I am as big a Rich Aurilia fan as there is on this board, but there is no doubt in my mind that Double-E should be the everyday 3B. Rich is still a valuable component on this team though, which brings me to my next point....

Rich Aurilia played six innings at SS tonight, and the prophesied coming of Ragnarok did not occur. Sure, Rich is not a great defensive player at SS, but he can man the fort for six or seven innings, and then Castro or Clayton can come in for defensive purposes if the Reds have the lead.

Rheal Cormier must have some sort of injury, and therefore was unavailable tonight. There is no other explanation.

Assuming that Cormier was unavailable, Ryan Franklin should have finished the game. I have also been pleased with Franklin so far, and I could see him eventually replacing Ramirez in the rotation.

If Cormier was available, then there is no excuse for not using him in the 14th inning, when the Phillies had their lefties coming to bat.

Since the Reds have a short bench, I would consider using Eric Milton more often in pinch-hitting situations, similarly to how the Cardinals use Jason Marquis. Milton acts like he has half a clue at the plate, and he came through with the PH single tonight. (I realize that it was deflected off the pitcher, but he made solid contact, as he often does.)

Aaron Harang came through with a gutsy inning of relief. I like the idea of occasionally using a starter for an inning of relief (and no more) on his scheduled throwing day. However, I would have preferred for Harang to have been used only in a save situation, which means that either Cormier should have been used first (if available), or Franklin should have stayed in the game.

It is possible that Elizardo Ramirez might still make his start tomorrow. He did not throw very many pitches. However, I think that Thin Lizzy's confidence is at an all-time low, and it is entirely possible that he might be sent down to bring up another starter for tomorrow. If that happens, then I look for that starter to be one of the following: (1) Either Michael Gosling or Joe Mays to be brought up from Louisville (though, if I'm not mistaken, a roster spot would have to be cleared on the 40-man roster to make room for Mays), or (2) Matt Belisle to be activated from the disabled list--though I'm not sure if Belisle is stretched out enough to start. I would be very surprised if Homer Bailey were brought up from Chattanooga.

I agreed with intentionally walking Ryan Howard the first two times, but the third time in the 14th was mind-boggling. You can't intentionally load the bases with no outs with a shaky pitcher on the mound who is having confidence issues and expect any outcome other than the one we got. In my opinion, Jerry Narron messed up on that one.


That's all for now. Have a nice evening everyone, and let's get 'em tomorrow!

[KronoRed]

This thread has 1317 posts.
See it doesn't, it did, but then you posted about it so now it doesn't...so you made yourself to be incorrect.

Masochist :devil:

[oregonred]

THis has to be a gamethread record. 1-3-2-1

[KronoRed]

Opening day thread had 1,427

Something to aim for ;)

[Jpup]

I just got done watching the game a few minutes ago. I don't know what to say. :explode:

I felt like tonight was a must win and it just didn't happen. On the bright side, Lohse actually looked like a decent pitcher tonight. I was amazed at how the first 7 innings flew by, and then it went in the can. Nice play by TH and a very nice effort by EdE. I'm not going to comment on the managing, as many have already done so. I don't think I or anyone else really has to say anything. The leash is growing shorter, I would imagine.

I don't know if anyone has noticed, but the Astros are sneaking back into the race. They have won 8 of 10. I pronounced them dead a couple weeks ago, but I guess the Reds are going to let them back in it.

The Cardinals lose to the lowly Pirates and, of course, the Reds can't take advantage. It's a good thing that the West stinks too.

Go get them on Saturday guys! I hope EZ is ok to go, if not, I guess it will be Milton.

[membengal]

If Cormier was unavailable then Franklin should have stayed in the game.

Yup.

Franklin should have pitched til the end, win or lose. It's one of the roles for a long guy like Franklin. Add in his adrenaline against his former team, and he was a good bet to hold them off the board a few more innings. Full agreement with you flyer.