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View Full Version : 08/17/06: Redlegs @ Cardinals Game Thread ... Reds lose 2-1



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redsmetz
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
Narron loses another one.

I know. Jerry went up there nearly 30 times during the game and only knocked in one stinking run and he only pitched and allowed two runs, that darn Jerry Narron.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
How can anyone defend Jerry Narron today?

I don't even wanna hear it.


Prepare to hear meta-whining by the "above-it-all" crowd in 3....2.....1......

Wheelhouse
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
Reds bats simply DO NOT SHOW UP for 2 of 3 games in the biggest series of the year. I can't believe we got handcuffed by Weaver again.

dsmith421
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
There is nothing so stupid I wouldn't put it out of Big Jer's reach. This team could be so much better.

kyred14
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
Narron didn't.

Man is a complete joke as a manager. Larussa went with his two best releif pitchers. Narron lost with a guy who is likely his worst.

I can't even get mad at Jerry anymore, this isn't even in the top 10 of his stupid moves. He just seems clueless at times.

Johnny Footstool
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
This is a 1 run ball game...

Bunt is NEEDED.. get the runner to third.. as he did :) yAY!!!

now a sac fly or a hit and we get the run back and a win chance for loshe

A bunt wastes an out. Phillips is a fast runner who could easily score from second. Better to let Ross, Valentin, and Freel take a crack at hitting a single than waste outs hoping for a bunt and hoping for a sac fly.

By-the-book thinking is sometimes ignorant thinking.

Chip R
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
I'd say it was unbelievable but Ray Charles could see that coming down I-75.

membengal
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
I really an genuinly curious, even from the staunchest of Narron defenders, how do you explain stuff like today? How does Franklin merit the trust he just got from Narron against the middle of the Cards' order in a 1-1 game in the 9th?

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:31 PM
Narron should be fired. Say what you want about larussa but he made good moves. Narron is an idiotIt's ludicrous. Larussa went with his best and Narron went with his worst. Who knew?

BRM
08-17-2006, 05:32 PM
I know. Jerry went up there nearly 30 times during the game and only knocked in one stinking run and he only pitched and allowed two runs, that darn Jerry Narron.

Jerry did allow one of his worst relievers to take the mound in the 9th.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:33 PM
There is nothing so stupid I wouldn't put it out of Big Jer's reach. This team could be so much better.removing Franklin after the 8th was a NO-BRAINER. I can't fathom a though process that doesn't have a LHP facing Duncan and Coffey coming in after that.

dabvu2498
08-17-2006, 05:33 PM
Blame Narron all you want, but he put the best offensive lineup he possibly could on the field today and they scored 1 run off Jeff Weaver.

I'll say it again... 1 run off Jeff Weaver.

vaticanplum
08-17-2006, 05:33 PM
I will say that if we had to lose this game, I am glad that it happened this way. My faith in Kyle Lohse is gaining. More importantly, the door was wide open for Pujols to win this with a walk-off homer, and if that had happened, I would have lost a part of my heart.

That said, I don't like Pujols steroid references. Totally unfounded.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 05:34 PM
I really an genuinly curious, even from the staunchest of Narron defenders, how do you explain stuff like today? How does Franklin merit the trust he just got from Narron against the middle of the Cards' order in a 1-1 game in the 9th?

Come on, man, baseball's bigger than game situations, gotta consider emotions, tightness in forearms, the bigger picture...

I just enjoy the games; I don't care what happens in them....:evil:

If you ain't outraged, you are blind and deaf.

Topcat
08-17-2006, 05:34 PM
Boy you really like jumping all over peoples opinons don't you?



Yes! Yes! Yes he does!

redsmetz
08-17-2006, 05:34 PM
Jerry did allow one of his worst relievers to take the mound in the 9th.

Franklin? He's done alright since he's been here. You roll the dice and see what happens. I'll hang this one on the offense personally. Twice in a week and we make Jeff Weaver look magnificent.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:34 PM
I can't even get mad at Jerry anymore, this isn't even in the top 10 of his stupid moves. He just seems clueless at times.If the Reds had a real manager they would likely have a 4-5 game lead at worst. Narron throws 'em away left and right.

The highest leverage inning of the season was pitched by a guy that was released so a team could keep Rick White when the manager had an entire bullpen to use.

Just ponder that for a while.

dsmith421
08-17-2006, 05:34 PM
That said, I don't like Pujols steroid references. Totally unfounded.

I was referring to Franklin, who is a steroid cheat.

membengal
08-17-2006, 05:34 PM
I know. Jerry went up there nearly 30 times during the game and only knocked in one stinking run and he only pitched and allowed two runs, that darn Jerry Narron.

Again, help me, I am trying to understand. How does the reds' failures on offense absolve Narron for sending Franklin back in to pitch the ninth against Duncan/Pujols/Rolen?

It would be nice if the Reds were up 20-0 at that point, and Narron didn't have to make a decision, but assuming that there will be games where Narron has to make late-game decisions, how does what he just did there make any sense?

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:35 PM
How can anyone defend Jerry Narron today?

I don't even wanna hear it.

Can't do it, not now! No way, no how. Not today.

westofyou
08-17-2006, 05:35 PM
It's ludicrous. Larussa went with his best and Narron went with his worst. Who knew?
That was the first time Izzy pitched in a week, what I ponder is where Weathers was.

Coffey was cooked and everyone else is lefty... Weathers threw 17 pitches on Tuesday, he must be sick, or toast.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-17-2006, 05:35 PM
Jerry did allow one of his worst relievers to take the mound in the 9th.

Against the heart of the Cards order no less.

Inexcusable.

And for those saying, the offense didn't show up today - well neither did the Cardinals, but they found a way to win. You know, sometimes the offense doesn't show up and you win 1-0, 2-1, etc.

membengal
08-17-2006, 05:36 PM
Franklin? He's done alright since he's been here. You roll the dice and see what happens. I'll hang this one on the offense personally. Twice in a week and we make Jeff Weaver look magnificent.

Sorry, don't mean to talk past you, in case you are replying to my other post, but there IS a longer track record on Franklin than "since he's been here".

vaticanplum
08-17-2006, 05:36 PM
I was referring to Franklin, who is a steroid cheat.

Ah...to be honest I don't even remember who sparked me, but if it was you, then I misunderstood and I apologize.

oneupper
08-17-2006, 05:36 PM
A bunt wastes an out. Phillips is a fast runner who could easily score from second. Better to let Ross, Valentin, and Freel take a crack at hitting a single than waste outs hoping for a bunt and hoping for a sac fly.

By-the-book thinking is sometimes ignorant thinking.

More often than not.

I'm not that upset about the Ross bunt, but only because Ross has been slumping lately.

What really irks me is getting another great performance from an iffy pitcher (Lohse) and squandering it.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:36 PM
I was referring to Franklin, who is a steroid cheat.he must think there suppositories

westofyou
08-17-2006, 05:36 PM
Blame Narron all you want, but he put the best offensive lineup he possibly could on the field today and they scored 1 run off Jeff Weaver.

I'll say it again... 1 run off Jeff Weaver.
And they got one of Kyle Lohse... baseball is a strange game.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:37 PM
Again, help me, I am trying to understand. How does the reds' failures on offense absolve Narron for sending Franklin back in to pitch the ninth against Duncan/Pujols/Rolen?



The offense today is not his fault, but Ryan Franklin is not the guy you send in there in a tie game at the bottom of the 9th in the biggest series of the year.

BRM
08-17-2006, 05:37 PM
Franklin? He's done alright since he's been here. You roll the dice and see what happens. I'll hang this one on the offense personally. Twice in a week and we make Jeff Weaver look magnificent.

The offense certainly has a big part in the loss but Narron's bullpen management was atrocious. With all the lefties in the pen there simply is no excuse for Franklin pitching to Duncan in the 9th. Bring in a lefty and have Coffey or Weathers pitch to Pujols and Rolen.

Puffy
08-17-2006, 05:37 PM
Ah...to be honest I don't even remember who sparked me, but if it was you, then I misunderstood and I apologize.

Yup - raise your hand if you read that as "who spanked me"

:eek:

CTA513
08-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Reds slugged out 3 hits today, I guess we should be happy that 1 of them was a homerun.
Valentin had a chance to knock in a run from 3rd with 1 out and couldnt even make contact.

Now they get to take on the Pirates who are fighting for nothing and just swept the Cardinals last week.

:help:

Cyclone792
08-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Franklin? He's done alright since he's been here. You roll the dice and see what happens. I'll hang this one on the offense personally. Twice in a week and we make Jeff Weaver look magnificent.

That's a statement that should be slapped up next to a big sign that reads "Small Sample Size Warning"

Tying bad players to a thought process of "he's done alright since he's been here" when that time period is merely a few weeks just leads to using bad players in crucial situations where they seemingly find ways to lose games.

Bad players are exactly what they are. Ryan Franklin is a bad pitcher, and what he did in the 9th inning today is pretty much a standard procedure for a bad pitcher.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:38 PM
That was the first time Izzy pitched in a week, what I ponder is where Weathers was.

Coffey was cooked and everyone else is lefty... Weathers threw 17 pitches on Tuesday, he must be sick, or toast.I kinda mentioned before the series that the Reds were seriously short of RH relief help going into a week against teams dominated by RHBs.

Don't worry they won't fix it against the Pirates either. Send out Bray, anyone but Franklin. You got your scoreless inning, quit tempting fate.

membengal
08-17-2006, 05:38 PM
Matt, I am not placing any blame on the offense on Narron. I was responding to redsmetz' pointing the finger at the offense. The fact that the offense had a tough day doesn't somehow keep Narron from being looked at for his decision-making in the ninth, in my opinon, was my point.

johngalt
08-17-2006, 05:40 PM
Franklin? He's done alright since he's been here. You roll the dice and see what happens. I'll hang this one on the offense personally. Twice in a week and we make Jeff Weaver look magnificent.

1.) Franklin's supposed to be the long reliever. Bringing him in here makes no sense because that isn't the spot for a long man and now we're in trouble if Michalak gets shelled early tomorrow and Franklin can't bounce back with 3-4 innings.

2.) He's pitched alright, yes, but that doesn't mean he pitches the 9th inning of a tie game in one of the most important games of the year.

3.) You don't "roll the dice" on a guy who was DFA'd by the Phillies and then had a couple decent outings for your club. That's just plain idiotic.

Personally, I put a lot of blame here on Krivsky since we have 5 lefties in the pen and not enough righties now. I know there has been some injuries, but rather than get Schoeneweis the other day, maybe we should have picked up a righty. God knows he could have found one with a pulse.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:40 PM
Yup - raise your hand if you read that as "who spanked me"

:eek:sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 05:40 PM
I honestly think Narron is worse than Ray Knight and Pete Rose.

dabvu2498
08-17-2006, 05:40 PM
Don't worry they won't fix it against the Pirates either. Send out Bray, anyone but Franklin. You got your scoreless inning, quit tempting fate.
He must have really lost faith in Bray.

I'm with WOY, a LOOGY, followed by Weathers was about the only alternative to Franklin that was viable.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:41 PM
Matt, I am not placing any blame on the offense on Narron. I was responding to redsmetz' pointing the finger at the offense. The fact that the offense had a tough day doesn't somehow keep Narron from being looked at for his decision-making in the ninth, in my opinon, was my point.

I'm in venting mode....I'm not griping at anyone in particular :D

The 9th was abysmal....if he brings Coffey/Weather/Bray...combo, whatever in instead, and they still lose, it would still hurt, but it would at least look like they went down trying.

It doesn't look that way.

OldXOhio
08-17-2006, 05:41 PM
Kriv lost this one by trading for the dung pile that is Franklin.

Ugh.

Franklin never should've been in the game in the 9th to begin with. This one's on Jerry.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:42 PM
Personally, I put a lot of blame here on Krivsky since we have 5 lefties in the pen and not enough righties now. Trading for a sore armed RH reliever kinda bit 'em in the but today.

Come on Wayne, make another trade.

traderumor
08-17-2006, 05:42 PM
I find this a loss that is really hard to complain about. A crisp, 2-1 pitcher's duel with the home team scratching out a run in the 9th. Good ballgame.

I just keep hoping for one 5-6 game winning streak to really make some noise. This floundering is getting a bit tiresome.

dsmith421
08-17-2006, 05:43 PM
I'd love to hear Narron's justification, but you know what, the media will just continue to stroke him and avoid anything semi-controversial and that moron will just assume it was bad luck.

Pitching Franklin there was like putting your entire bankroll on the double zero and being shocked, no, appalled, when you're broke four seconds later.

CTA513
08-17-2006, 05:43 PM
Dont worry guys, they have Michalak going against the Pirates tomorrow.
Thats a 100% for sure win for the Reds.

:D

Chip R
08-17-2006, 05:43 PM
I wonder if Narron freezes up in these tight spots. Kind of like how Grady Little froze up in the ALCS when he should have taken Pedro out.

The good news, if there is any, is that we made Weaver look like Cy Young. That should keep him in the rotation against everyone else. We may not be able to beat him but everyone else beats him like a rug.

Wheelhouse
08-17-2006, 05:43 PM
How 'bout Dunn's .182 average for August. Sweet for the stretch. Mix in the D, Sunday strolling the basepaths, and the oxygen-sucking, non-event strikeouts and you've got a real winner. He has got to wake up.

Kc61
08-17-2006, 05:44 PM
Use of Ryan Franklin there was strange. I'm sure Narron likes righties against StLouis lineup, but you can't leave Franklin in against Albert and Rolen.

However, a note of optimism. Reds just split a very tough road trip. They now have a favorable schedule. They are only 2.5 behind the Cards who have lost a key player, Edmonds. Lohse is pitching great so there are now 4 real starters on the team.

Reds need to start winning more often at home, and continue their solid road performance, and they'll make the playoffs. This game in mid-August was not make or break.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 05:44 PM
I just keep hoping for one 5-6 game winning streak to really make some noise. This floundering is getting a bit tiresome.

That's what a crap bullpen and a tired rotation gets you.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:44 PM
Every time this team just about gets something going Narron fritters a game away with a decision that completely boggles the mind.

I can handle the losing just not the stupefying decisions that lead to some of the losses.

vaticanplum
08-17-2006, 05:44 PM
I find this a loss that is really hard to complain about. A crisp, 2-1 pitcher's duel with the home team scratching out a run in the 9th. Good ballgame.

I just keep hoping for one 5-6 game winning streak to really make some noise. This floundering is getting a bit tiresome.

Agreed. There's plenty of blame to go around, I don't see the need to assign it after every game. This happens in team sports. We lose some games. As losses go, it wasn't the worst; in fact there were some very good points to this game.

Now the Reds must win next every game until next Friday or I will blame them all and stop watching.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:45 PM
I'd love to hear Narron's justification, but you know what, the media will just continue to stroke him and avoid anything semi-controversial and that moron will just assume it was bad luck.



The only person who may ask is Marty on tomorrow's pregame....

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:45 PM
How 'bout Dunn's .182 average for August. Sweet for the stretch. Mix in the D, Sunday strolling the basepaths, and the oxygen-sucking, non-event strikeouts and you've got a real winner. He has got to wake up.I think I just saw a Red Herring fly by.

CTA513
08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
How 'bout Dunn's .182 average for August. Sweet for the stretch. Mix in the D, Sunday strolling the basepaths, and the oxygen-sucking, non-event strikeouts and you've got a real winner. He has got to wake up.

Freel: .208
Ross: .129

TRF
08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
Franklin never should've been in the game in the 9th to begin with. This one's on Jerry.

Oh, I agree.

I just don't think he should have been on the roster period.

Chip R
08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
I think I just saw a Red Herring fly by.

I didn't know herrings flew.

penantboundreds
08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
hey just so you know....michalak was 4-0 with like a 1.5 e.r.a in 92? i believe for the blue jays. he then blew up but hey he worked for 4 starts before blowing up...if he can do that for 4 games then we get him out of the rotation he'd be the best #5 in the game...

OldXOhio
08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
Use of Ryan Franklin there was strange. I'm sure Narron likes righties against StLouis lineup, but you can't leave Franklin in against Albert and Rolen.

However, a note of optimism. Reds just split a very tough road trip. They now have a favorable schedule. They are only 2.5 behind the Cards who have lost a key player, Edmonds. Lohse is pitching great so there are now 4 real starters on the team.

Reds need to start winning more often at home, and continue their solid road performance, and they'll make the playoffs. This game in mid-August was not make or break.

I like your attitude, but the more this season wears on, I just find it harder and harder to fathom that this squad is ever going to play better than .500 ball. 5-6 game win streaks seem almost unthinkable.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:46 PM
Agreed. There's plenty of blame to go around, I don't see the need to assign it after every game. This happens in team sports. We lose some games. As losses go, it wasn't the worst; in fact there were some very good points to this game.

Now the Reds must win next every game until next Friday or I will blame them all and stop watching.

I usually don't point my finger, but Jerry's 9th inning really leaves a bad taste in my mouth today...

BRM
08-17-2006, 05:47 PM
I think I just saw a Red Herring fly by.

I was tempted to shoot at it but I figured I'd let it go on by.

Joseph
08-17-2006, 05:47 PM
Was it a good throw to the plate?

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:48 PM
Agreed. There's plenty of blame to go around, I don't see the need to assign it after every game. This happens in team sports. We lose some games. As losses go, it wasn't the worst; in fact there were some very good points to this game.losses happen, nobody is debating the point. It's that you want to be able to say at the end of the day that all the right decisions(I am not talking in hindsight) were made. Maybe they don't work out but that you have good justification for every one. There is no justification for having Franklin pitch the 9th.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 05:50 PM
There is no justification for having Franklin pitch the 9th.

Jerry's "heart."

TRF
08-17-2006, 05:50 PM
Use of Ryan Franklin there was strange. I'm sure Narron likes righties against StLouis lineup, but you can't leave Franklin in against Albert and Rolen.

However, a note of optimism. Reds just split a very tough road trip. They now have a favorable schedule. They are only 2.5 behind the Cards who have lost a key player, Edmonds. Lohse is pitching great so there are now 4 real starters on the team.

Reds need to start winning more often at home, and continue their solid road performance, and they'll make the playoffs. This game in mid-August was not make or break.

4?

Where?

Harang Yes.
Arroyo, maybe if he has really turned it around.
Lohse? I'm thinking he benefitting from the same bump Bronson got at the beginning of the season. I hope he rides it for the next 6 weeks and beyond.

That's all i see.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 05:51 PM
4?

Where?

Harang Yes.
Arroyo, maybe if he has really turned it around.
Lohse? I'm thinking he benefitting from the same bump Bronson got at the beginning of the season. I hope he rides it for the next 6 weeks and beyond.

That's all i see.

Milton....give the guy credit, he's been big lately.

westofyou
08-17-2006, 05:52 PM
Jerry's "heart."
Nah, your devaluing Jerry's baseball education, that was a pure matchup role, pure strat-o-matic. All his LH's were set at "Avoid RH's" and Weathers and Coffey were marked as "Tired" therefore because Franklin is a "Long Reliever" the computer kept him in.

Happens all the time.

In Strat that is.

oneupper
08-17-2006, 05:52 PM
This game in mid-August was not make or break.

I beg to differ. This was the biggest game of the season up to this point. Last game with main division rival. Chance to tighten the race enormously.

After seeing Narron treat so many more insignificant games, in which the REDS had a minimal chance to win in the later innings, as if they were the 7th game of the WS, I came away with the impression that he didn't give this one its due.

Coffey would have pitched, Weathers too. Heck even Arroyo would have taken the ball.

Maybe Narron needs to get ejected again (or a day off) :)

PuffyPig
08-17-2006, 05:52 PM
A couple of ground ball singles beats the Reds.

Rolen's last hit could just as easily have been a DP.

The Cards' pitchers were 2-26 in BABIP today. They were lucky.

It happens.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 05:52 PM
Milton....give the guy credit, he's been big lately.

And while you're at it, leave Harang in the "exhausted arm" dog house.

The guy's got insane mileage on that arm at this point.

OldXOhio
08-17-2006, 05:53 PM
I wonder if Narron freezes up in these tight spots. Kind of like how Grady Little froze up in the ALCS when he should have taken Pedro out.



I sort of rolled my eyes at this notion earlier in the year when this very thing was suggested. Now I'm starting to wonder. The mistakes being made don't appear on the surface to be over terribly difficult decisions. I could be wrong, there could be things going on in that dugout we're just not aware of. The call for Ross to bunt is debateable, yet certainly has ground to stand on. Using Franklin in that situation in the 9th is just mind boggling.

traderumor
08-17-2006, 05:53 PM
Use of Ryan Franklin there was strange. I'm sure Narron likes righties against StLouis lineup, but you can't leave Franklin in against Albert and Rolen.

However, a note of optimism. Reds just split a very tough road trip. They now have a favorable schedule. They are only 2.5 behind the Cards who have lost a key player, Edmonds. Lohse is pitching great so there are now 4 real starters on the team.

Reds need to start winning more often at home, and continue their solid road performance, and they'll make the playoffs. This game in mid-August was not make or break.I think Franklin was left in with the sights on extra innings and multiple innings. But honestly, folks, we could have brought in the ghost of Walter Johnson and Duncan would likely get a base hit and nobody in our bullpen is good enough to get Pujols and Rolen out regularly. Narron threw an arm out there and hoped for the best with all things basically even. It's good to have the meat of the order up in a tie game in the 9th at home. Advantage Cards. I think the minimum mission was accomplished in the series--don't get swept. Anything more was a bonus. We're one winning streak away, folks, have fun!

traderumor
08-17-2006, 05:57 PM
Nah, your devaluing Jerry's baseball education, that was a pure matchup role, pure strat-o-matic. All his LH's were set at "Avoid RH's" and Weathers and Coffey were marked as "Tired" therefore because Franklin is a "Long Reliever" the computer kept him in.

Happens all the time.

In Strat that is.Yup, you choose your poison and sometimes have limited options. But then you'd have to admit the Cards had the cards in the 9th and we were trying to draw an inside straight with Franklin.

dabvu2498
08-17-2006, 05:58 PM
In happy news... Tom Hume just said on the star of the game show that Vern Ruhle will be in Cincy for the series vs. the Pirates this weekend.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:58 PM
A couple of ground ball singles beats the Reds.

Rolen's last hit could just as easily have been a DP.

The Cards' pitchers were 2-26 in BABIP today. They were lucky.

It happens.losses happen, that is not the point.

The point is Narron made a decision that put his team in as bad a position as possible. The idea of game management is to do the exact opposite. He will do it again and again and again before the season ends.

I'm sure when the Reds miss the playoffs by a game or two it will just be because "the Reds weren't very lucky".

flyer85
08-17-2006, 05:59 PM
But honestly, folks, we could have brought in the ghost of Walter Johnson and Duncan would likely get a base hit and nobody in our bullpen is good enough to get Pujols and Rolen out regularly. that in no way excuses not having whoever you believe is your best pitcher pitch that inning.

oneupper
08-17-2006, 05:59 PM
In happy news... Tom Hume just said on the star of the game show that Vern Ruhle will be in Cincy for the series vs. the Pirates this weekend.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

Kc61
08-17-2006, 06:00 PM
I agree with the comment by someone that the Nats trade hurt today. Against StL, a healthy Majewski is a key pitcher, very tough on righties. So instead we had Franklin.

And with all the pitching discussion, keep in mind that Reds had 3 hits today. This offense doesn't always show up. (Wayne, for next year, one more big hitter.)

Still, plenty of time to win the division or the wild card. Have to start winning at home.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 06:01 PM
The mistakes being made don't appear on the surface to be over terribly difficult decisions.like I said earlier, he messes up no-brainers. They are even debateable decisions and yet he gets them wrong.

Maybe he gets excited and loses all cognitive ability. There aren't many other rational explanations available.

traderumor
08-17-2006, 06:03 PM
I would add to WOY's strat-o-matic analogy that one should buy the game (I'm not on commission ;) ) and try managing a team such as the Reds through a full season and find out how frustrating it gets in the late innings when you have a very shaky bullpen with a bunch of tired arms. That would certainly help some appreciate Narron's dilemma on days like today, which also happen on nearly a daily basis.

traderumor
08-17-2006, 06:05 PM
that in no way excuses not having whoever you believe is your best pitcher pitch that inning.Sometimes you go with what you got. Of course, we don't know what other "better" relievers like Bray or Coffey would have been able to do against Pujols or Rolen, or if the latter was only available if absolutely needed. The right answer isn't always that Narron is an idiot. Sometimes he is, today I think there were extenuating circumstances that make arguing the point somewhat futile.

Johnny Footstool
08-17-2006, 06:06 PM
How 'bout Dunn's .182 average for August. Sweet for the stretch. Mix in the D, Sunday strolling the basepaths, and the oxygen-sucking, non-event strikeouts and you've got a real winner. He has got to wake up.

Maybe he's been hanging out with Austin Kearns again.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 06:09 PM
I would add to WOY's strat-o-matic analogy that one should buy the game (I'm not on commission ;) ) and try managing a team such as the Reds through a full season and find out how frustrating it gets in the late innings when you have a very shaky bullpen with a bunch of tired arms. That would certainly help some appreciate Narron's dilemma on days like today, which also happen on nearly a daily basis.Narron doesn't get it.

Last night he used Weather/Coffey to pitch low leverage innings so today he has Franklin pitch much higher leverage innings. If he was worried about Weathers/Coffey being tired for Gods sake pitch someone else last night so they could be availabe the next day.

Grady Little got praised by BP earlier this week for allowing Carrera to get a 3 run 2 inning save because Broxton and Saito had been pitching a lot of late. He was praised because of the understanding that there are low leverage and high leverage innings and almost any pitcher(yes, even the bad ones) can protect a 3 run lead for an inning or 6 runs over 2 innnings like last night. If you are worried about overwork you cannot be sending out your "best relievers" to pitch low leverage innings if it means you then have to send out your worst relievers to pitch the high leverage innings.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 06:12 PM
Of course, we don't know what other "better" relievers like Bray or Coffey would have been able to do against Pujols or RolenMissing the entire point.

This is not hindsight. You do simply do not have your worst reliever pitch what may turn out to be the highest leverage inning of the year.

Might they have scored anyway off of Coffey/Bray/Weathers, etc. Sure but it would have been an OK decision.

Unless of course someone wants to argue that Franklin was simply the nst choice.

westofyou
08-17-2006, 06:13 PM
I would add to WOY's strat-o-matic analogy that one should buy the game (I'm not on commission ;) ) and try managing a team such as the Reds through a full season and find out how frustrating it gets in the late innings when you have a very shaky bullpen with a bunch of tired arms. That would certainly help some appreciate Narron's dilemma on days like today, which also happen on nearly a daily basis.
This year I'm going Earl Weaver, up until 2 weeks ago I had a 3 man pen, Politte, Turnbow and Duchscherer, combined 3.54 ERA, I just added Justin Spiere as my Loogy.

redsmetz
08-17-2006, 06:14 PM
What really irks me is getting another great performance from an iffy pitcher (Lohse) and squandering it.

I'll stand with you there. We've had probably a dozen good performances get a no decision or a blown save this year. That hurts.

I hope folks don't misunderstand. I'm very disappointed in today's loss, but blame can be spread around quite a lot. First and foremost, the offense really let us down.

OldXOhio
08-17-2006, 06:16 PM
First and foremost, the offense really let us down.

Haven't you heard? Weaver was dealing today.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 06:18 PM
First and foremost, the offense really let us down.it happens. That is part of the game.

You cannot use it as a excuse for suboptimal decision making by the manager.

Larussa took him to the woodshed with the usage of the bullpen today. Tony simply went with his two best releivers and said screw the matchups.

Matt700wlw
08-17-2006, 06:20 PM
Haven't you heard? Weaver was dealing today.

The lineup wasn't the problem.

Sure they didn't produce, and as much as it pains me, Weaver gets a lot of credit for that....

OldXOhio
08-17-2006, 06:24 PM
The lineup wasn't the problem.

Sure they didn't produce, and as much as it pains me, Weaver gets a lot of credit for that....

No, the lineup wasn't the problem...the output from that lineup was. It was a good, hard fought game, but in the end we got a total of 4 men on base today. Regardless of Narron's decision to use Franklin in the 9th, our pitchers gave up 2 runs in 8 innings of work.

Big Klu
08-17-2006, 06:34 PM
Narron doesn't get it.

Last night he used Weather/Coffey to pitch low leverage innings so today he has Franklin pitch much higher leverage innings. If he was worried about Weathers/Coffey being tired for Gods sake pitch someone else last night so they could be availabe the next day.

Grady Little got praised by BP earlier this week for allowing Carrera to get a 3 run 2 inning save because Broxton and Saito had been pitching a lot of late. He was praised because of the understanding that there are low leverage and high leverage innings and almost any pitcher(yes, even the bad ones) can protect a 3 run lead for an inning or 6 runs over 2 innnings like last night. If you are worried about overwork you cannot be sending out your "best relievers" to pitch low leverage innings if it means you then have to send out your worst relievers to pitch the high leverage innings.

I agree with what you say about "high leverage vs. low leverage" situations. Franklin or Shoeneweis could have mopped up in last night's game, thus saving Coffey for today. (Shoeneweis would have been an exceptionally good choice, because it would have allowed him to get his feet wet with the Reds in a non-threatening situation.)



Updated Reds HR list (players in italics are active):

Reds All-Time Home Run Leaders
1. Johnny Bench - 389
2. Frank Robinson - 324
3. Tony Perez - 287
4. Ted Kluszewski - 251
5. George Foster - 244
6. Eric Davis - 203
7. Barry Larkin - 198
8. Adam Dunn - 194
9. Vada Pinson - 186
10. Wally Post - 172
11. Ken Griffey, Jr. - 163
12. Gus Bell - 160
13. Joe Morgan - 152
13. Pete Rose - 152
15. Lee May - 147
16. Dan Driessen - 133
17. Reggie Sanders - 125
18. Ernie Lombardi - 120
19. Sean Casey - 118
20. Frank McCormick - 110
21. Dave Parker - 107
22. Chris Sabo - 104
23. Dave Concepcion - 101
24. Gordy Coleman - 98
25. Paul O'Neill - 96

Doc. Scott
08-17-2006, 06:41 PM
In happier news, the Rockies are about to beat the Diamondbacks and the Giants are leading San Diego by five in the eighth.

So the Reds will hold on to the wild card lead for another day.

Mario-Rijo
08-17-2006, 06:46 PM
I would add to WOY's strat-o-matic analogy that one should buy the game (I'm not on commission ) and try managing a team such as the Reds through a full season and find out how frustrating it gets in the late innings when you have a very shaky bullpen with a bunch of tired arms. That would certainly help some appreciate Narron's dilemma on days like today, which also happen on nearly a daily basis.

I agree with that assessment it's certainly not easy. However I have to wonder why with Franklin as well. I guess based on what was available he did what he thought was best. So my problem is not so much what he did tonight (although I might have used Schoeneweis for all 3 batters, just a gut feeling since none of 3 have) but the fact that he misused what he had last night. I think (and for good reason perhaps) that Narron is scared to death of the Cards otherwise why would you use Coffey last night in a game where you lead 5-6 runs? If he had not done so he could have used him tonight after he used Bray or Schoeneweis to get Duncan!

Of course Coffey gave a run up on 2 hits himself so would it have made much of a difference? Plus if we had brought in a LH then he has practically a full bench to choose from to bat for Duncan (assuming he would have) perhaps someone who has faced ScSc, like Spiezio. Frankly once we did not score it was going to be over and Javy didn't make the contact, that is his failure but I am inclined to give him a pass as he has been very good in those situations this season. If I was to send someone up there to face anyone with who was on the bench it would have been Javy and Javy only! As I am not a fan of Hollandsworth before or since that deal. I am just as disappointed that Hatteberg, Griffey or EE couldn't get something going in the 9th vs. Izzy.

But I am going to try to make the game tommorrow night for my 1st of the season so hopefully that brings us some fortune.;)

redsmetz
08-17-2006, 06:51 PM
"I don't believe a manager ever won a pennant. Casey Stengel won all those pennants with the Yankees. How many did he win with the Boston Braves and Mets? I've never seen a team win a pennant without players. I think the only thing the manager has to do is keep things within certain boundaries."

So says George "Sparky" Anderson - I think he once said that he believed a manager can really only effect maybe 2-3 games a season (or maybe that was LaSorda).

I got this quote from a great page on baseball-almanac.com - check it out

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/quotes/quoand.shtml

[A funny one was that when he got a hit off of Sandy Koufax, Koufax knew it was time to hang it up.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 06:58 PM
the Cardinal broadcasters commented in the 8th that they needed to take advantage of Franklin because they would only get one crack at him.

I guess they don't know Narron very well.

traderumor
08-17-2006, 07:25 PM
Missing the entire point.

This is not hindsight. You do simply do not have your worst reliever pitch what may turn out to be the highest leverage inning of the year.

Might they have scored anyway off of Coffey/Bray/Weathers, etc. Sure but it would have been an OK decision.

Unless of course someone wants to argue that Franklin was simply the nst choice.No, I simply don't know the reasoning and who was available, nor do you. You are making a boatload of assumptions to make your point, but I'm saying you don't know who was available and who wasn't anymore than I do. Before one can analyze bullpen decisions at the level some of you are attempting to, you need to know the pecking order that was available, and you don't. That is the point.

flyer85
08-17-2006, 07:36 PM
with a day off and Monday and the fact that nobody pitched both Tuesday and Wednesday, everyone should have been available.

And if Coffey/Weathers hadn't been wasted on a 6 run lead ...

Reds didn't use Bray/Cormier/Schoenweis in the entire series.

REDREAD
08-17-2006, 07:36 PM
I would add to WOY's strat-o-matic analogy that one should buy the game (I'm not on commission ;) ) and try managing a team such as the Reds through a full season and find out how frustrating it gets in the late innings when you have a very shaky bullpen with a bunch of tired arms. That would certainly help some appreciate Narron's dilemma on days like today, which also happen on nearly a daily basis.

That's true, he did have tired bullpen arms. But part of that is Narron's fault.

Narron should be using Franklin more in the games where we are behind. It seems like the better middle relievers (Weathers, Bray, Coffey) are used a lot when the Reds are behind.

If Narron used Franklin as the classic long reliever, the rest of the pen would be more rested.

If Narron doesn't trust any of his LH pitchers against righties, then that's a problem. If that's the case, Wayne needs to recall Standbridge.

membengal
08-17-2006, 07:44 PM
Redread...great point.

Trying to get over disappointment now...did they begin the Phillie/Card road trip at 3.5 games back? And are ending it at 2.5 games back? Yeah, if could have been better, but at least they still pushed it in the right direction.

A nice little 5-1 homestand would be most welcome at this point. Gotta find a way to make that kind of success happen starting this weekend against Pittsburgh, a team that no one should take lightly...

OnBaseMachine
08-17-2006, 08:15 PM
I completely give up any hope of the Reds winning the NL Central now. If you get beat by Jeff Weaver, also known as "big pile of dog crap" twice in one week then you are a bad baseball team and have no chance of winning the Central.

Jeff Weaver?!?:laugh:

westofyou
08-17-2006, 08:21 PM
Kyle Lohse?!?

traderumor
08-17-2006, 08:23 PM
I completely give up any hope of the Reds winning the NL Central now. If you get beat by Jeff Weaver, also known as "big pile of dog crap" twice in one week then you are a bad baseball team and have no chance of winning the Central.

Jeff Weaver?!?:laugh:I'm sure teams say the same thing when Eric Milton beats them :laugh:

Cedric
08-17-2006, 08:23 PM
I completely give up any hope of the Reds winning the NL Central now. If you get beat by Jeff Weaver, also known as "big pile of dog crap" twice in one week then you are a bad baseball team and have no chance of winning the Central.

Jeff Weaver?!?:laugh:

You remind me of a younger me.

And I'm still fired up easily.

MWM
08-17-2006, 08:30 PM
I thought with all the lefties in the pen, we'd see a lefty against Duncan and then a righty against Pujols and Rolen.

But in reality, the Cards are most likely going to win that game when it's tied in the 9th regardless of who pitches. BUt I still hated the fact that it was left to Franklin. The game was really lost when they didn't get the run home in the 7th.

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 08:32 PM
I thought with all the lefties in the pen, we'd see a lefty against Duncan and then a righty against Pujols and Rolen.

But in reality, the Cards are most likely going to win that game when it's tied in the 9th regardless of who pitches. BUt I still hated the fact that it was left to Franklin. The game was really lost when they didn't get the run home in the 7th.

The cumulative effect of enduring so many crushing losses has made me numb.

Not upset or apathetic. Just numb.

NJReds
08-17-2006, 09:25 PM
The cumulative effect of enduring so many crushing losses has made me numb.

Not upset or apathetic. Just numb.

There have been a lot of inspiring wins, too. What's wearing me out is that it seems like it's coming down to the wire day after day. But then, I didn't even think that they'd be sniffing the playoffs in August.

dsmith421
08-17-2006, 09:31 PM
Losing with that cheat on the mound just makes it worse. Scum like Franklin should have been run out of this game years ago.

redsmetz
08-17-2006, 09:37 PM
The cumulative effect of enduring so many crushing losses has made me numb.

Not upset or apathetic. Just numb.

How is this a crushing loss? It's a loss, no more, no less. The loss in Philly with the blown saves and extra innings was more crushing than this one. Obviously we can't afford to lose many games, but this is just one loss; another game. One day at a time.

cumberlandreds
08-17-2006, 10:02 PM
How is this a crushing loss? It's a loss, no more, no less. The loss in Philly with the blown saves and extra innings was more crushing than this one. Obviously we can't afford to lose many games, but this is just one loss; another game. One day at a time.

I don't think it was a crushing loss but a really big one. This time of year it's a huge difference being 2 1/2 out as opposed to only 1/2 game out. It may prove to be very difficult to make that 2 games up.

redsmetz
08-17-2006, 10:08 PM
I don't think it was a crushing loss but a really big one. This time of year it's a huge difference being 2 1/2 out as opposed to only 1/2 game out. It may prove to be very difficult to make that 2 games up.

Well that certainly is true. As I said, we can ill afford to lose any game, although there is about a month and a half of the season left. I guess the reason I'm not worrying so much is I've been of the mind most of the season that this season is gravy. If we make the playoffs, the would be super. If not, we made a very good run at it and the new regime demonstrated that they're committed to putting a winning product on the field. I still like our chances, but we do have our work cut out for us.

We're going tomorrow night and I'm hoping it's better than the St. Louis drubbing we saw the week before last (including picking up a W - it's Joe Nuxhall Day in the State of Ohio!)

Falls City Beer
08-17-2006, 10:16 PM
We can't afford to lose games we can win.

You can afford to lose the 10-0 blowout. You can't the 1-1 tie in the ninth.

paulrichjr
08-17-2006, 10:22 PM
it happens. That is part of the game.

You cannot use it as a excuse for suboptimal decision making by the manager.

Larussa took him to the woodshed with the usage of the bullpen today. Tony simply went with his two best releivers and said screw the matchups.


Driving back right now from the game and I'm still not happy. When Phillips get sacrificed to 3rd and Valentin is announced LaRussa pops out and I think "ok a lefty is coming in.". Well of course he brings in a righty and I'm thinking "why?" Thenit dawns on me he wants a strikeout so he goes with a hard thrower that was "good!"

Then with the game tied izzy is in...I think, "Man he is managing this like this game really means something."

Then Franklin starts the 9th. I'm watching in disbelief but think that he probably is on a short leash.

First man reaches I think "ok bring in someone else...I mean he has someone warming in the bullpen." Then a walk. Ok now you idiot narron will make a move that is going to be too late but at least you have someone in the pen still warming up. No move...of course we all know what happens next. I have no idea why he had someone warming up when it appeared that it was Franklins to lose.

I posted in another thread a few weeks ago that Narron was doing a good job and deserved the extension. Many others responded...guys we were all very wrong. Narron does not know how to make decisions when the game is on the line. LaRussa knew what this game meant. Narron didn't.

WVRedsFan
08-18-2006, 01:26 AM
LaRussa knew what this game meant. Narron didn't.

That says it all.

Wasn't it Narron who said that losing this series meant nothing, or something like that?

Jerry gets outmanaged a lot.

traderumor
08-18-2006, 08:26 AM
I'm sure if Narron had a stud closer that had not pitched in the series, he would have brought him in as well. The Cardinals may be struggling, but they still have a team that can whip you in certain situations. Like a tie game in the ninth with a rested closer and the middle of the lineup up sure can make a manager look like he gets it whereas the other, with a bullpen full of misfit toys is taken to task as an idiot for having to use one of them.


Narron does not know how to make decisions when the game is on the line. LaRussa knew what this game meant. Narron didn't.

redsmetz
08-18-2006, 09:05 AM
I'm sure if Narron had a stud closer that had not pitched in the series, he would have brought him in as well. The Cardinals may be struggling, but they still have a team that can whip you in certain situations. Like a tie game in the ninth with a rested closer and the middle of the lineup up sure can make a manager look like he gets it whereas the other, with a bullpen full of misfit toys is taken to task as an idiot for having to use one of them.

Is there a website that shows teams records winning games in the ninth inning? I'm betting that the great majority of home teams win games tied in the ninth or extras. The odds are so much in their favor. I don't have anything to go on, but if someone knows a website, I'll look it up.

traderumor
08-18-2006, 09:24 AM
Maybe yesterday was karma for the time last year that Danny Graves retired Albert Pujols after swinging on the first pitch with the bases loaded and got a game ending double play on a chopper to Joe Randa.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/recaps/2005/04/13/10808_recap.html

oneupper
08-18-2006, 09:31 AM
Is there a website that shows teams records winning games in the ninth inning? I'm betting that the great majority of home teams win games tied in the ninth or extras. The odds are so much in their favor. I don't have anything to go on, but if someone knows a website, I'll look it up.

http://www.walkoffbalk.com

The win expectancy for the home team to win a game that is tied going to the bottom of the ninth is 64.8%.

Once they get the first man on base (first), it goes up to 71.3%

First and second..no outs...81.8%

Getting that first batter out is critical for a visiting team.

redsmetz
08-18-2006, 09:32 AM
Maybe yesterday was karma for the time last year that Danny Graves retired Albert Pujols after swinging on the first pitch with the bases loaded and got a game ending double play on a chopper to Joe Randa.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/recaps/2005/04/13/10808_recap.html

You don't think the Mother's Day Massacre wasn't payback enough????

redsmetz
08-18-2006, 09:37 AM
http://www.walkoffbalk.com

The win expectancy for the home team to win a game that is tied going to the bottom of the ninth is 64.8%.

Once they get the first man on base (first), it goes up to 71.3%

First and second..no outs...81.8%

Getting that first batter out is critical for a visiting team.

Wow! What a cool site. I'll have to Bookmark it.

I check the win expectancy for the Visiting team in the 8th inning with 1 out with a runner on third - around 62% win that game. Clearly going into the 9th inning tied put us behind the eight ball - it always does. The game was our's to win in the 8th.

traderumor
08-18-2006, 11:46 AM
You don't think the Mother's Day Massacre wasn't payback enough????Do you mean the Weathers/Graves meltdown?

paulrichjr
08-18-2006, 12:03 PM
I'm sure if Narron had a stud closer that had not pitched in the series, he would have brought him in as well. The Cardinals may be struggling, but they still have a team that can whip you in certain situations. Like a tie game in the ninth with a rested closer and the middle of the lineup up sure can make a manager look like he gets it whereas the other, with a bullpen full of misfit toys is taken to task as an idiot for having to use one of them.

LaRussa managed his bullpen the correct way. I'm sure he makes mistakes but yesterday you could understand the method to his madness. Narron manages like he is playing cards or something...Hunches....

On a side note, during the ninth inning when Pujols came up to bat with a man on I heard people around me say that they wouldn't pitch to him and would walk him. My thought was, "you guys are nuts..they would never walk the winning run to second....boy they sure had idiot fans in St. Loooou...what in the world is going on...it appears that they are pitching around Pujols to walk the winning run to second...it can't be possible...."

I know that maybe Franklin just didn't have control but again I go back to the fact that Narron had someone warming up in the bullpen...for what? In case Franklin gave up a hit - NO - in case he lost control and walked someone - No.

The man does not know how to manage pitching. We have seen it so many times this year it is starting to go beyond insane.

flyer85
08-18-2006, 12:05 PM
Narron manages like he is playing cards or something...Hunches....
and seems shocked when his card doesn't come "on the river".

redsmetz
08-18-2006, 12:28 PM
Do you mean the Weathers/Graves meltdown?

Yeah, although I think I'm mistaken about it being Mother's Day. Maybe it was all of us fans at the game leaving the game weeping, saying, "I want my mommy!".