Guts to mold winner

[Spitball]

I remember Whitey Herzog raising eyebrows and getting second guessed in the early eighties when he traded away many of the Cardinal stars including top offensive shortstop Garry Templeton, top offensive catcher Ted Simmons, former Gold Glove lock and MVP Keith Hernandez , and Hall of Famer Rollie Fingers. I have not done a statistical analysis of his return for these players at the time, but I'm willing to bet he took a statistical beating at the time of the trades. His trades were widely questioned but they showed guts and proved to be essential to the type of team Whitey Herzog wanted to field. Ozzie Smith, Darrel Porter, Pete Vuckovich, and the others did not seem to be the statistical equal to the players he traded, but they proved to be key components to his type of team.

Wayne Krivsky might be making some questionable trades, but he has shown the guts to make moves to alter a poor team's make-up into a team that has been in contention all season. I don't care what the GM from LA does with his big budget or any of the other GM's, Krivsky took our team destined for last place and gave us a contender through August. The guy has been great in my book. I have no problem with his direction or vision.

[Falls City Beer]

I remember Whitey Herzog raising eyebrows and getting second guessed in the early eighties when he traded away many of the Cardinal stars including top offensive shortstop Garry Templeton, top offensive catcher Ted Simmons, former Gold Glove lock and MVP Keith Hernandez , and Hall of Famer Rollie Fingers. I have not done a statistical analysis of his return for these players at the time, but I'm willing to bet he took a statistical beating at the time of the trades. His trades were widely questioned but they showed guts and proved to be essential to the type of team Whitey Herzog wanted to field. Ozzie Smith, Darrel Porter, Pete Vuckovich, and the others did not seem to be the statistical equal to the players he traded, but they proved to be key components to his type of team.

Wayne Krivsky might be making some questionable trades, but he has shown the guts to make moves to alter a poor team's make-up into a team that has been in contention all season. I don't care what the GM from LA does with his big budget or any of the other GM's, Krivsky took our team destined for last place and gave us a contender through August. The guy has been great in my book. I have no problem with his direction or vision.


Wayne Krivsky is not bringing back 1982 baseball to MLB.

Wayne is taking a million stabs in the dark and occasionally making contact.

[Johnny Footstool]

So Krivsky has molded the Reds to fit his vision of a team? A 5th starter scavenged from the stinkpile, 8 questionable bullpen arms, three catchers, two aging shortstops who haven't been good defenders since 1998, and Todd Hollinsworth as the biggest bat off the bench?

That's not much of a vision.

[MartyFan]

I am entirely happy with the moves Special K and Mr C have made...REGARDLESS of this team going to the play offs or not...I admit it would be disapointing but compared to where this team or this organization was projected to beI believe that next year we will start the season with at least 4 quality arms that will give us a great chance to win...the BP arms will all be healthy...that along with the current core players and a couple of offseason pick ups will make this team FEARED.

I will be happy to finish second in our division even if we miss the playoffs...I don't need Mr. C and Special K to kill themselves to build a winner...Rome was not built in a day. After suffering so many years of chaos I can wait for them to put all the pieces together.

[Larry Schuler]

The worst small market GM in the world is Wayne Krivsky, but he's better than the others.

[Ron Madden]

I am entirely happy with the moves Special K and Mr C have made...REGARDLESS of this team going to the play offs or not...I admit it would be disapointing but compared to where this team or this organization was projected to beI believe that next year we will start the season with at least 4 quality arms that will give us a great chance to win...the BP arms will all be healthy...that along with the current core players and a couple of offseason pick ups will make this team FEARED.

I will be happy to finish second in our division even if we miss the playoffs...I don't need Mr. C and Special K to kill themselves to build a winner...Rome was not built in a day. After suffering so many years of chaos I can wait for them to put all the pieces together.

Everyone is happy that our favorite team is still in the race. We are all Reds fans here.

Is it wrong for anyone of us to question some of the moves made since the season started?

We have lost some of our better trading chips trying to improve the bull pen. How many of these old/or injured guys have actually improved our chances of winning ballgames?

[Phil in BG]

I was a big Kearns fan and hated to see him leave. In hindsight I'm still not thrilled with the move, bit I still have faith. Our last GM would have sat still and the Reds would have finished in the lower half of the division. We may not agree with his moves but you can't argue with Wayne's desire to win. What a refreshing change. I have faith in our current ownership and GM to make the Reds a perennial contender.

[westofyou]

Wayne is taking a million stabs in the dark and occasionally making contact.

Seems to be in fashion here too.

[Falls City Beer]

Seems to be in fashion here too.

It's a message board. Some never hit the target.

Then some of us have laser-sighted rifles.

[westofyou]

It's a message board. Some never hit the target.

Then some of us have laser-sighted rifles.
Some think they have laser-sighted rifles too.

I'm seeing air guns everywhere.

[RedFanAlways1966]

Then some of us have laser-sighted rifles.

3 words... (1) Haynes (2) Fourteen (3) Wins.


I couldn't resist, FCB! ;)

[Falls City Beer]

Some think they have laser-sighted rifles too.

I'm seeing air guns everywhere.

So no one knows anything? Everyone's equally ignorant?

[westofyou]

So no one knows anything? Everyone's equally ignorant?
No, no one knows everything, Everyone's equally guilty of that.

[Falls City Beer]

No, no one knows everything, Everyone's equally guilty of that.

That includes Krivsky.

I guess I just get tired of the notion that because Wayne is GM, he automatically knows more about baseball than rubes on a message board.

It's just not true, in the way it's just not true that politicians, because they are politicians, know more about what's good for society.

[westofyou]

I guess I just get tired of the notion that because Wayne is GM, he automatically knows more about baseball than rubes on a message board.

True.

I get tired of the rubes more myself.

[ChatterRed]

For the most part, I credit Krivsky competitive desire for us being still in this thing.

I think his earlier moves were better than his later moves. His later moves smell of desperation........his earlier ones were more solid.

I'm still upset that we have so many starting pitching questions. I don't think Lohse is the answer. Once NL hitters see him a time or two, I fear the near 7.00 era from the AL will start popping up again. But so far.....he's getting it done.

The bullpen trade was a good idea and good on paper. Bray and Magic had solid numbers for the Nationals. Bowden snaked us again........and I don't completely blame Krivsky for that.

Guardado amazingly turned out alright. Guardado's Seattle numbers made that look questionable.

But the Phillips, Ross, and Arroyo moves were season changing moves.

I think they gave up on Dave Williams way too soon. I know he was sucking badly, but his career numbers were nowhere in the range of a Joe Mays. Geez. That was a pathetic experiment.

[Falls City Beer]

True.

I get tired of the rubes more myself.

Then why are you here? I'm not asking that to be spiteful or rude. Honestly.

Do you wish contending opinions to go away? Do you want posts to be drained of emotion and passion?

What do you want from a message board?

I like all opinions in that they exist, whether I vehemently disagree with a position or not; I love severity, moderation, intelligence, intuition, all of it--if it's done right and it's done without personal insults or hate language.

But back to the point of this thread: I'd love for someone to point out a trend or a system being implemented by Krivsky. People talk a lot about Wayne's vision, and that's fine, but help out an ignorant rube like me and help me see what it is; because, frankly, I don't at all see the parallel with Herzog's 80s teams. Just someone help me see a picture. And please don't say nebulous stuff like "he's changing the culture of the team" (no kidding; when you trade a third of the minors and a quarter of the major league team, you're going to have a change in culture); I'm talking about what is Wayne attempting to build in a major league team.

[redsupport]

Its sad that Luke Hudson and Josh Hancock were in the system, and the Chris Michaluks and Dave Williams were trotted out to lose countless games

[dougflynn23]

:) Darrel Porter was an All Star catcher with unquestioned leadership skills. Bruce Sutter was the best at what he did. Ozzie Smith was a Gold Glove SS who stole 50 bases a season. Sixto Lezcano was 26, a Gold Glove RF, and 1 year removed from 28 HR. 100+ RBI and a .321 BA. David Green was the Justin Upton of his day, the #1 prospect in the game. Lary Sorenson had won 45 games in the prior 3 years, was 24, and one of the most desired pitchers on the market, and Dave LaPoint was a 21 year old LHP who would go 9-3 as a rookie in 1981 in helping the Cards win a WS. Neil Allen was as highly regarded pitcher, and Hernandez had little trade value at the time as everyone knew about his personal demons. Several of these moves worked out, several did not, but they were strong moves and Whitey had a plan.

What Wayne Krivsky is doing is nothing like what Herzog did. Herzog was dining at Jeff Ruby's with an AMEX card. Krivsky is dining at White Castle with a $5 bill.

[westofyou]

Then why are you here? I'm not asking that to be spiteful or rude. Honestly.

For the dot races... what else is there?


But back to the point of this thread: I'd love for someone to point out a trend or a system being implemented by Krivsky.

You know what I'd love?

I'd love it if folks would realize that turning around a battleship isn't as easy as turning around a car, and that building a baseball team takes more then 8 months.

I'd like to think I know a lot about baseball history.

That said the expectations assigned to every one of the moves this season made in the wake of the worst Reds run in 50 odd years and the absolutley worst pitching that the franchise has ever experienced is unreal, as is the expectations that it can all be fixed quicker then it has been.

Teams don't stink like the Reds have the past few seasons and turn around in 1 season, and with their ML system it should take even longer.

You may think they can, but I don't.. so if you want to keep saying it can I'll reserve to the right to say you're off base with that assertion.

[Jr's Boy]

Seems to be in fashion here too.

Hear,Hear

[Falls City Beer]

For the dot races... what else is there?



You know what I'd love?

I'd love it if folks would realize that turning around a battleship isn't as easy as turning around a car, and that building a baseball team takes more then 8 months.

I'd like to think I know a lot about baseball history.

That said the expectations assigned to every one of the moves this season made in the wake of the worst Reds run in 50 odd years and the absolutley worst pitching that the franchise has ever experienced is unreal, as is the expectations that it can all be fixed quicker then it has been.

Teams don't stink like the Reds have the past few seasons and turn around in 1 season, and with their ML system it should take even longer.

You may think they can, but I don't.. so if you want to keep saying it can I'll reserve to the right to say you're off base with that assertion.


I've never said this team can be a winner in 8 months, or in one season. Though I think that this team as Krivsky inherited it was WAY more steeped in talent than people gave it credit for; as bad as the pitching was on the team Wayne inherited, its offense was equally good--so I don't buy the poormouth Wayne argument at all. He had a LOT of talent to work with. Maybe not all the RIGHT talent, but it was talent, nonetheless.

But I think early moves designed to turn around the proverbial battleship should contain the germs of a "vision" if said vision exists, should they not? So why can't anyone articulate this vision? Or is it that Wayne is playing exclusively for this year? Because if he's playing exclusively for this year, he's only doing a mediocre job of it.

[Always Red]

That includes Krivsky.

I guess I just get tired of the notion that because Wayne is GM, he automatically knows more about baseball than rubes on a message board.

It's just not true, in the way it's just not true that politicians, because they are politicians, know more about what's good for society.
What I find is amazing about this board is that there are so many people here who know more about baseball than Wayne and Jerry. I say that mostly in jest, read on. There are a lot of know-it-alls on message boards in general and most of us are know-it-alls at one time or another; I know I'm guilty of that, if it's something I'm sure I'm right about!

It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.~ John Wooden, the sage of Westwood

I take it all with a grain of salt; it's a message board, it's all about the give and take of opinions. Sometimes opinions can be proven to be right or wrong, but sometimes they are just opinions. For instance, it is my opinion that Lohse has twice the "stuff" that Dave Williams has. Probably won't get too much argument about that here! But then, why do both of them have similar numbers?

Stats, in and of themselves, can and do show a wealth of hidden information about the game. I have loved baseball with a passion my entire life, and played it seriously until I was 19 and was told that I needed to move on to my "life's work," LOL. But I never really understood the game as well as I thought I did until I began to study and understand the work of Bill James. I know it's a little off topic, but all stats can do is tell you what has happened with a player in the past, what he might be expected to do, and what his trends are. And that's a lot of info. But it can't tell you everything. That's why scouting will always be here, and be a vital and necessary part of the game. Experienced eyeballs on players can fill in the voids and gaps that stats cannot address. Lohse apparently had major issues with authority in Minnesota, and it lead to him being a very unhappy camper. Probably pretty unprofessional of him, but hey,that's all part of the growing up process, eh? Brandon Phillips learned a similar lesson, I think, and has made the most of his second chance.

I read this board for 2 years prior to starting to participate more. It has greatly improved my knowledge of the game, and of the Reds. And as my understanding has increased, so has my love of the game. I love the history of the game, and reading woy's posts and website have been awesome. FCB always has good info and perspective, and when TC and SteelSD approach an issue from totally different perspectives, I just sit back and soak it in like a sponge. This is a great place!

And the best thing is that everyone here has one thing in common- we all love the Reds. There are a lot of different ways to build a winner, and the fun of this place is seeing a lot of opinions on how to do that. And everyone here winds up learning more about the game. Baseball is a marathon, a long work in progress. It takes a long time to turn a team around, and the season is a grind, and it's planned to be that way- a team like the Dodgers can lose 8 in a row out of the baox after the ASG, and then put together an amazing streak after that. In a way, it's the total opposite of football, which is instant action and instant results and gratification.

The true "rubes" sort themselves out, and get kicked off, like what happened yesterday. And it's never because of their opinion; but only because they approach it in less than civil manner. OK, I've rambled on long enough, back to regularly scheduled programming.:D

[westofyou]

I've never said this team can be a winner in 8 months,

Yeah, but you sure act like it, plus you call for WK's head just about every game thread.. so what if you didn't say it out loud?

It's there clear enough to see.

Why act as though it never happens that way?


as bad as the pitching was on the team Wayne inherited, its offense was equally good-

The game has been experiencing an offensive burst, the Reds play in a park that enhances power, pitching is the steak and potatos of the game right now and the Reds have been and are on food stamps... offense is gravy, but meat and vegis makes the meal and a good meal is more then just gravy.

[Johnny Footstool]

Some think they have laser-sighted rifles too.

I'm seeing air guns everywhere.

Nice.

Very insightful comment.

[Falls City Beer]

So no one wants to step up and articulate what they believe Wayne is doing in terms of a "vision" for this team? What will the team look like next year? What is he emphasizing/de-emphasizing? What has he done differently from, say, a GM that I think he resembles to a tee in Jim Bowden (sans the venality)?

[RollyInRaleigh]

For the dot races... what else is there?



You know what I'd love?

I'd love it if folks would realize that turning around a battleship isn't as easy as turning around a car, and that building a baseball team takes more then 8 months.

I'd like to think I know a lot about baseball history.

That said the expectations assigned to every one of the moves this season made in the wake of the worst Reds run in 50 odd years and the absolutley worst pitching that the franchise has ever experienced is unreal, as is the expectations that it can all be fixed quicker then it has been.

Teams don't stink like the Reds have the past few seasons and turn around in 1 season, and with their ML system it should take even longer.

You may think they can, but I don't.. so if you want to keep saying it can I'll reserve to the right to say you're off base with that assertion.

Right on the money!:beerme:

[RollyInRaleigh]

It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.~ John Wooden, the sage of Westwood

:beerme:

[MWM]

It takes both courage and competence to build a winner. I don't think you can have only one and build a consistent winning organziation. John Shuerholz is a great example of a GM with both. Some GMs know what needs to be done but don't have the guts to be bold when boldness is needed. Others have all the courage in the world, but don't seem to know exactly what's needed and often change direction time after time and seem to make moves just to make them without any real plan. Every once in a while someone, such as DanO, doesn't have either. That's a recipe for disaster.

With Wayne, it's clear he has the guts (and I believe that's the more rare of the two), but it isn't clear yet whether or not he has the competence (and please don't tell me that he must be competent because he has the job. DanO and Steve Phillips were both GMs. Plenty of people get exposed once they're promoted past their level of competence). I'm not suggesting he doesn't have it, only that it's tough to tell. He hasn't even had an offseason yet and has made some good moves to date. And most of the moves he's made this year were small potatoes and he didn't give up much in return. They're the "throw enough things against the wall and something going's to stick" type of moves. With a season like this where no one is any good, I have no problem with that strategy (although, I hated and still do "The Trade" and that deal makes me a little nervous).

Guts without competence or competence without guts! Neither one is going to work over a period of time. Hopefully Wayne has both, but the jury is still out, IMO. This offseason will be very telling as they should have some money to work with.

[Willy]

TeamClark is the only member of this board that I know of that hs a job with a Major League Ballclub, he is one of the most respected and knowledgeable posters on the board, and I would be willing to bet that even TC would say that he is not ready to be a MLB GM. As much as TC knows about baseball, Wayne could teach him a lot. TC's job is baseball, that's what he does for a living, and maybe in ten years TC will have gained the experience and knowledge to be a GM(I hope its sooner TC).

What blows me away is a guy who has spent his whole working career in baseball, one of the top 5 most knowledgeable posters on this board, and he is not ready to be a gm, but we still have guys on here who have read a couple of books, watched games on tv, and won a couple of fantasy baseball leagues think they KNOW more that our current GM.

Sure there are moves Wayne makes that I don't agree with, but I never claim I know more than he does. The people on here who honestly think they should be the Reds GM make me laugh. I almost feel sorry for them.

[Ltlabner]

So no one wants to step up and articulate what they believe Wayne is doing in terms of a "vision" for this team? What will the team look like next year? What is he emphasizing/de-emphasizing? What has he done differently from, say, a GM that I think he resembles to a tee in Jim Bowden (sans the venality)?

Moving away from great offense/horrible pitching to good offense/good pitching model.

You can argue over the effectivness of the moves he's made in that direction, but that is clearly his "vision" for the team. He's enumerated that much in various interviews, articles, etc.

[Johnny Footstool]

TeamClark is the only member of this board that I know of that hs a job with a Major League Ballclub, he is one of the most respected and knowledgeable posters on the board, and I would be willing to bet that even TC would say that he is not ready to be a MLB GM. As much as TC knows about baseball, Wayne could teach him a lot. TC's job is baseball, that's what he does for a living, and maybe in ten years TC will have gained the experience and knowledge to be a GM(I hope its sooner TC).

What blows me away is a guy who has spent his whole working career in baseball, one of the top 5 most knowledgeable posters on this board, and he is not ready to be a gm, but we still have guys on here who have read a couple of books, watched games on tv, and won a couple of fantasy baseball leagues think they KNOW more that our current GM.

Sure there are moves Wayne makes that I don't agree with, but I never claim I know more than he does. The people on here who honestly think they should be the Reds GM make me laugh. I almost feel sorry for them.

This argument is misdirected. It's like saying you can't have an opinion about music unless you're an expert musician. "How dare you criticize my four-hour rock opera based on the life of Benjamin Harrison? You don't even play guitar!" Nonsense.

It doesn't take a virtuoso to recognize that Wayne is missing quite a few chord changes.

[Falls City Beer]

The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.

[Falls City Beer]

Moving away from great offense/horrible pitching to good offense/good pitching model.

You can argue over the effectivness of the moves he's made in that direction, but that is clearly his "vision" for the team. He's enumerated that much in various interviews, articles, etc.

Fair enough.

[Cedric]

The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.

And patience?

[Falls City Beer]

And patience?

Really?

I've never seen a guy scurrying to make so many ill-timed moves in my life.

I've got patience for the picture to come into focus, but I have no patience for stupidity.

[RollyInRaleigh]

The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.

I'd say that is very debatable and pretentious statement, so excuse me because I don't take it as fact.

[dsmith421]

Wayne Krivsky might be making some questionable trades, but he has shown the guts to make moves to alter a poor team's make-up into a team that has been in contention all season.

Being in contention all season hasn't changed the fact that this is a mediocre team. It just so happens that all the mediocre teams are, in fact, in contention.

Krivksy's early moves (Arroyo, Phillips, Ross) perhaps changed this from a 70 win team of no-hopers into a 75-78 win team, which I think is where we'll end up.

[SteelSD]

This argument is misdirected. It's like saying you can't have an opinion about music unless you're an expert musician. "How dare you criticize my four-hour rock opera based on the life of Benjamin Harrison? You don't even play guitar!" Nonsense.

It doesn't take a virtuoso to recognize that Wayne is missing quite a few chord changes.

It's also loaded with strawmen built with erroneous assumptions.

Chewbacca defense rulz!

[Willy]

This argument is misdirected. It's like saying you can't have an opinion about music unless you're an expert musician. "How dare you criticize my four-hour rock opera based on the life of Benjamin Harrison? You don't even play guitar!" Nonsense.

It doesn't take a virtuoso to recognize that Wayne is missing quite a few chord changes.

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, I have them all the time. But just because I don't like a song I wouldn't tell the musician how to do it better.

[Falls City Beer]

I'd say that is very debatable and pretentious statement, so excuse me because I don't take it as fact.

Pardon me if I don't worship at the altar of the well-connected.

Pretentious? That's funny since I'm arguing that knowledge is democratic and not the domain of "special baseball people" who know so much more than us rubes.

Again, I throw out the political analogy: because someone is elected does that mean that that person knows more about what humanity needs or what is right than someone else?

The point being is that you have to demonstrate that you are good at what you do before you can say that you know what you are doing. You can't say, well he was appointed so he must be capable. Doesn't work that way. He's got to earn it.

[Willy]

The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.

So what your saying is I could get hired as a Doctor, if I knew the right people, since I read a lot of Medical books, and watch ER?

Wayne has spent his whole life training for this job, let's give him alittle respect for that.

[Team Clark]

I read this board for 2 years prior to starting to participate more. It has greatly improved my knowledge of the game, and of the Reds. And as my understanding has increased, so has my love of the game. I love the history of the game, and reading woy's posts and website have been awesome. FCB always has good info and perspective, and when TC and SteelSD approach an issue from totally different perspectives, I just sit back and soak it in like a sponge. This is a great place!

Wait until you hear the Radio show!!!

This really is a great place. I have been here for about 6 years. It's addicting. I was in the clubhouse in Toledo just a few days ago showing some of the ballplayers Redszone.com. As soon as I got up to go do something else thy were on my laptop reading the threads. They are just as much fans as anyone. Occasionally some of us get carried away. The problem with the written word on a msg board is that it is very difficult to judge inflection, tone, candor, etc... Unfortunately a lot of people take comments personally. It's hard to avoid. This is a great place nonetheless.

[MWM]

A job in baseball is no gurantee that one has some kind of special knowledge of the game. Heck, even Team Clark has talked about incompetence of some who are in the game and have a job.

There are plenty of people who know a lot about baseball and could have a successful carrer in some capacity in the game but simply choose a different career. The steps it takes to move up the ranks in baseball organizations is not one that appeals to plenty of people. Some people aren't interested in getting coffey for one of their seniors at next to no money for years hoping someone notices them just so they can say they work in the game of baseball. I'm not suggesting I could have been successful in the game, but working in the game has no appeal to me at all. I have a lot of career ambition, and baseball doesn't really provide any real outlet for it. It's more about the politics of who you know than performance from what I've heard.

I keep coming back to DanO. He was the General Manager of a Major League baseball team. To me, that destroys any argument of competence by nature of their position. You think his father had anything to do with him getting the opportunities he had?

[Falls City Beer]

So what your saying is I could get hired as a Doctor, if I knew the right people, since I read a lot of Medical books, and watch ER?

Wayne has spent his whole life training for this job, let's give him alittle respect for that.

GM-ing is not comparable to training for a specific hard scientific field.

But still, even then there are people who graduate from med school who have ABSOLUTELY NO business being doctors.

And yes, I know a ton of auto-didacts--I've taught myself two foreign languages; my wife's learned two. My brother-in-law's formal schooling ends with a GED, but he's making six figures working for Cisco because he was able to teach himself each of his formidable skills.

I'm not saying that all information is available to everyone or that some formal schooling isn't necessary in some fields. But to say that the baseball "enlightened" exist only in the field of MLB is silly. And insulting. And horribly misinformed.

[Team Clark]

TeamClark is the only member of this board that I know of that hs a job with a Major League Ballclub, he is one of the most respected and knowledgeable posters on the board, and I would be willing to bet that even TC would say that he is not ready to be a MLB GM. As much as TC knows about baseball, Wayne could teach him a lot. TC's job is baseball, that's what he does for a living, and maybe in ten years TC will have gained the experience and knowledge to be a GM(I hope its sooner TC).

What blows me away is a guy who has spent his whole working career in baseball, one of the top 5 most knowledgeable posters on this board, and he is not ready to be a gm, but we still have guys on here who have read a couple of books, watched games on tv, and won a couple of fantasy baseball leagues think they KNOW more that our current GM.

Sure there are moves Wayne makes that I don't agree with, but I never claim I know more than he does. The people on here who honestly think they should be the Reds GM make me laugh. I almost feel sorry for them.

I appreciate the comments. Someone asked me a few days ago what the most difficult part of my job was. The answer is "Judgement". Anytime you are dealing with human beings as your subjects Judgement can be the asset or the downfall of your organization.

I like statistics. I grew up relying on them. I like scouting too. I like using my experience in the game as a guide. When I see a hitter 6-8 inches behind a fastabll inside I'm DYING to see what the pitcher/catcher will do next. Go back in? Slider away and then FB in? Hmmmm.....

I read a great quote the other day that said this "People who rely SOLELY on statistics to evaluate players want the game to be played this way. Batter walks up to the plate and holds up a sign with a statistical equation, the pitcher holds up a similar card with a similar equation. The stats guy wants the umpire to take out a calculator and figure out if he gets a hit or not".

I do not believe that myself but I have run into many ont his board that seem to think that way.

There is so much more to this game than meets the eye. Not all of it can be seen by an evaluator. Statistics can help open your eyes to illusions. I just wish there was a middle ground.

[RollyInRaleigh]

Pardon me if I don't worship at the altar of the well-connected.

Pretentious? That's funny since I'm arguing that knowledge is democratic and not the domain of "special baseball people" who know so much more than us rubes.

Again, I throw out the political analogy: because someone is elected does that mean that that person knows more about what humanity needs or what is right than someone else?

The point being is that you have to demonstrate that you are good at what you do before you can say that you know what you are doing. You can't say, well he was appointed so he must be capable. Doesn't work that way. He's got to earn it.

And just because you have a PC and keyboard, have read a few books, and can spout the mantra doesn't mean you have all the qualities necessary to deal with people and be a General Manager at baseball's highest level. With the people skills that I see a lot of folks display here, it would be amazing that another GM would even answer his phone to talk.

Maybe Krivsky will never get the Reds to the promised land. Heck he's had how many months now to get it done? :laugh: Pardon me for saying it, but I find some of this stuff absolutely hilarious. Go ahead, keep drinking that kool-aid you're drinking. It makes for good entertaiment.

[Falls City Beer]

And just because you have a PC and keyboard, have read a few books, and can spout the mantra doesn't mean you have all the qualities necessary to deal with people and be a General Manager at baseball's highest level. With the people skills that I see a lot of folks display here, it would be amazing that another GM would even answer his phone to talk.

Maybe Krivsky will never get the Reds to the promised land. Heck he's had how many months now to get it done? :laugh: Pardon me for saying it, but I find some of this stuff absolutely hilarious. Go ahead, keep drinking that kool-aid you're drinking. It makes for good entertaiment.

Didn't take long to whip out the personal attacks. :)

But why should I be surprised?

[SteelSD]

I read a great quote the other day that said this "People who rely SOLELY on statistics to evaluate players want the game to be played this way. Batter walks up to the plate and holds up a sign with a statistical equation, the pitcher holds up a similar card with a similar equation. The stats guy wants the umpire to take out a calculator and figure out if he gets a hit or not".

Who in the world wrote that garbage? Geez.

[Team Clark]

Who in the world wrote that garbage? Geez.

I'll look it up for you. I know who showed it to me, so I will ask him. I though it was a bit harsh, but there are people who do think that way.

[dsmith421]

I could be wrong, but I see the baseball business requiring three skill sets (outside, obviously, of knowing the right people):

1. "Soft" people skills
2. Statistical analysis
3. Scouting--the ability to subjectively analyze talent

#1 seems to be largely inborn. #2 you can learn through independent study and analysis, as many on this board have proven. #3 requires a lot more--you need experience in the game, you probably need to have played at a reasonably high level, you need first-hand contact with players and managers for several years to "get it", as it were.

Obviously, baseball men (no offense meant to you, TC) are going to emphasize #3 while poking fun at #2, because it's the only thing that truly separates them from, say, a successful businessman with a SABR membership.

I suspect a mix of all three is critical to success at the highest level, but it seems to me that even someone with no tangible "hard" baseball experience in scouting or player development could make a good GM provided he effectively surrounds himself with 'baseball men' and affords their opinions the respect they are due. I wonder sometimes if this is where DePodesta's downfall occurred (although he was awful with the media, too, apparently).

[westofyou]

Nice.

Very insightful comment.
Thanks Johnny I'd rep you if didn't think your comment was dripping with sarcasm. ;)

[Falls City Beer]

I could be wrong, but I see the baseball business requiring three skill sets (outside, obviously, of knowing the right people):

1. "Soft" people skills
2. Statistical analysis
3. Scouting--the ability to subjectively analyze talent

#1 seems to be largely inborn. #2 you can learn through independent study and analysis, as many on this board have proven. #3 requires a lot more--you need experience in the game, you probably need to have played at a reasonably high level, you need first-hand contact with players and managers for several years to "get it", as it were.

Obviously, baseball men (no offense meant to you, TC) are going to emphasize #3 while poking fun at #2, because it's the only thing that truly separates them from, say, a successful businessman with a SABR membership.

I suspect a mix of all three is critical to success at the highest level, but it seems to me that even someone with no tangible "hard" baseball experience in scouting or player development could make a good GM provided he effectively surrounds himself with 'baseball men' and affords their opinions the respect they are due. I wonder sometimes if this is where DePodesta's downfall occurred (although he was awful with the media, too, apparently).


Bowden certainly possesses bullet point #1!

He's 1/3 of the way to being a great GM!! ;)

[SteelSD]

I'll look it up for you. I know who showed it to me, so I will ask him. I though it was a bit harsh, but there are people who do think that way.

Oh, I agree there are folks who have thoughts identical to that of the writer you cited.

I completely disagree that anyone thinks in the fashion positioned by the writer. No such animal exists. This following conversation has never taken place:

"Yeah...hi...um, my name is Bobby and I like this baseball thing but only the stats part of it. Do you think that they could, like, do away with the whole 'playing the games' thing? I really distracts from the only thing I like. If you all could just stop playing an pull out some calculators and just hold up some cards or something to dictate what would have normally happened, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks so much."

At some point, we have to burn a couple (if not more) strawmen to the ground. And we need to start with strawmen 1A and 1B:

1A) Scouts are just a bunch of tobacco chewing neanderthals who're looking for guys who'd look great in jeans commercials and who have no understanding of the importance of objective data.

1B) Stat guys are just a bunch of geeks who have never played the game, view it SOLELY from a statistical perspective, have no interest or understanding of subjective analysis, and who have no appreciation for game aesthetics.

Strawman 1A draws from the book-marketing hyperbole of Michael Lewis' "Moneyball". I'd expect scouts to take umbrage with that concept 100% of the time- as well they should, particularly if said scouts have ever held a stopwatch or radar gun in their hands.

Stawman 1B is the exact inverse of Strawman 1A and, likewise, has no place in rational thought. Whoever wrote the quote you cited should be ashamed and, of the two, the latter is the most commonly seen.

The key in bridging the gap is understanding that statistical analysis is simply an extension of scouting. What? Isn't there supposed to be some great rift between the two "disciplines" (for lack of a better word)? Well, only when we forget that the scouting side had been moving toward more objective standardization many many moons ago.

That's what boggles my mind about the quote you posted, TC. Subjective and objective baseball analysis has walked hand in hand for decades. Whoever wrote it hasn't the first clue as to how close the two disciplines are tied nor do they have the first idea about the origins of of the more mathematically-inclined of the two.

Statistical analysis has been around forever. Scouting analysis has been around forever. Both have gone through evolutions over time that have pushed them toward being more objective analysis. How many standardized systems do you have at your disposal, TC? Stopwatches, radar guns, tools-based analysis, etc. etc. Do you use hitting charts? Track how often a pitcher reproduces his release point? Careful, might be too objective.

Your discipline has evolved just as my discipline has evolved. But our understanding of each is not exclusive to our interest in either. Crossover naturally occurs because folks love the smell of the grass, the pop of a fastball, and the crack of the bat before they give the first hoot about the Runs Created formula. Really. Every single time.

[BoydsOfSummer]

True.

I get tired of the rubes more myself.


I'm right here and can hear you guys...sheesh...

[wheels]

As cloying as The Trade is, it does provide Wayne with the resources necessary to make some decent moves in the offseason.

I think that'll be the true litmus test.

We know he won't sit on his hands, so if he buggers things up in the FA market, it'll be his death knell.

I'm willing to wait and watch.

....Maybe he should take a little break as far as trading goes, though.:laugh:

[Johnny Footstool]

There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, I have them all the time. But just because I don't like a song I wouldn't tell the musician how to do it better.

No, but if you were at a concert and he continued to misplay notes and chords, you would probably let him know about it. You certainly wouldn't clap very loudly when he was done.

[redsfanmia]

The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.


Do you really believe this?

[Falls City Beer]

Do you really believe this?

Yes.

[Willy]

Yes.

So his 30 years working his way through the system, which include 27 years of scouting, all of his experiences in negotiating contracts for Major League players, including salary arbitration cases and multi-year deals basicly mean nothing?

OK, I can see that.:rolleyes:

[SunDeck]

I'm just having a hard time figuring out how anyone could be calling for Wayne's head when I think back to where the Reds were...in January.
Not saying he's the sharpest crayola in the box, but what does it take, people? I'll take a team that contends with a pitching staff held together by paper clips and bubble gum over one that is finished in July.


Today's Line...
2B: E Encarnacion 2 (26, P Maholm, S Torres); R Aurilia (20, P Maholm); R Clayton (26, S Torres); D Ross (11, M Capps)
HR: D Ross (15, 3rd inning off P Maholm 0 on, 2 Out); B Phillips (12, 7th inning off M Capps 1 on, 2 Out)
RBI: E Encarnacion 3 (63), R Aurilia 2 (48), D Ross 5 (40), B Phillips 3 (60)

[edabbs44]

I was a big Kearns fan and hated to see him leave. In hindsight I'm still not thrilled with the move, bit I still have faith. Our last GM would have sat still and the Reds would have finished in the lower half of the division. We may not agree with his moves but you can't argue with Wayne's desire to win. What a refreshing change. I have faith in our current ownership and GM to make the Reds a perennial contender.
Couldn't agree less...I blame O'Brien's lack of motivation (i.e., trades) due to King Carl's penny pinching ways. Wayne's trades when the pressure wasn't on (Phillips, Ross and BA) have been much better than the trading deadline debacles, which are too numerous to list. It has been a great time so far this season but I have been extremely disappointed with the lack of actual improvements made to the team at the deadline. Picking up other people's trash is not usually going to help much. And don't get me started on the injury fiasco currently taking place, as that has been awful.

[cincyinco]

Yeesh.. there's just no pleasing some people...

I'm headed out for a beer. See you geeks later. :) And I mean that in the nicest way possible. :p:

[Team Clark]

Statistical analysis has been around forever. Scouting analysis has been around forever. Both have gone through evolutions over time that have pushed them toward being more objective analysis. How many standardized systems do you have at your disposal, TC? Stopwatches, radar guns, tools-based analysis, etc. etc. Do you use hitting charts? Track how often a pitcher reproduces his release point? Careful, might be too objective.

I use a ton of hitting charts at the big league level. That's why we employ Inside Edge. The inforamtion they provide us is almost incomprehensible. I think you would really like it. Extremely detailed info. LOVE it. The pitching charts are also incredible. The sorting abiltiy is nothing short of amazing. Last 5 games all fb's thrown. Last 3 games all pitches thrown for strikes. Last 25 starts all pitches thrown that resulted in balls hit on the ground. Sort even further by, FB, CB, SL, CH, 0-0, 0-1, # of outs, incredible. Hard to figure out a way to use it all the time. Great stuff.

[MWM]

princeton doesn't have a job in baseball that I know of and he outdrafts the Reds year in and year you. He's also shown an uncanny ability to "evaluate" players who wind up being exactly who he says they are. As far as I'm concerned, I'll put more credibility in what he says over plenty of people who have jobs in the game.

[Spitball]

Yes.

A bold word. I'm curious, what is your baseball background? I'm interested because I used to enjoy and value your posts. Now, I'm confused by the positions you take. Do you really think you have the superior knowlege to those who have spent a lifetime on baseball fields? Is there really an idiot entrenched in the Reds' front office while you have so much more knowledge? Funny, he has a team, picked for last by almost everyone, within a whisker of first place in the Central and leading the Wild Card while you sit far from a baseball field and type very bold criticism.

[Team Clark]

princeton doesn't have a job in baseball that I know of and he outdrafts the Reds year in and year you. He's also shown an uncanny ability to "evaluate" players who wind up being exactly who he says they are. As far as I'm concerned, I'll put more credibility in what he says over plenty of people who have jobs in the game.

He speaks the truth. Princeton is Money on the draft.

I wonder if his brain is on Steroids?

[redsfanmia]

Yes.
Let me guess, had you not gotten screwed over by your high school coach you would have a hall of fame career right? Honestly that is one of the most absurd statements I have heard on this board.

[Ltlabner]

The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.

I'd agree with this FCB, except you left out such minor tallents needed as:

* Managing an orginization including the entire farm system, all of the scouts, player development people, the marketing department, promotions department, etc. All of these "disciplines" require different skills and tallents to work effectivley with them and encourage them to work at their most effective level.

* Negotiating multi-million dollar contracts. With big dollar agents, who have negotiated contracts with the best of them. People who don't really care if you can recite VORP, BABIP, OPS or ATM because for every stat you throw at them they will counter it with 100 other reasons why you should give their guy more money. People who don't really care if you subjectivley say "your guy isn't a good part of the chemistry of the team". They'll say good bye and move their player to another team.

* Negotiating trades with other GM's that involve millions of dollars of "assets". You may be able to get away with condecending, arrogent, smart alec posts (and we've all made them at times) with anomous strangers on the internet. Try that with another GM and see how far that goes. I doubt you'll be getting many phone calls back. And when people begin to think you are a A+ blowhard they will be far less likely to entertain trade ideas or take a chance on a "boarderline" trade with you.

* The ablity to consider all the facets of an entire MLB franchise, not just fuss over the line up, why Narron started RA over EE and when Homer Baily will pitch 20 wins. Decisions made about AA player development will effect how the marketing department works (or at least downstream it will). Revamping the scouting department will effect the minor league farm system. On and on. The decisions to be made are far more complex than the relativley simple issues we hash over here at RZ.

So I totally dissagree with the premise that anybody with a good knowledge of baseball would be a great GM if all they had "were the connections". There is far more to running an orginization than a subscription to BP, 15 years of experience watching baseball on TV, the ability to type (ie. post on the internet) and "the connections".

[RollyInRaleigh]

Good post.

[Falls City Beer]

A bold word. I'm curious, what is your baseball background? I'm interested because I used to enjoy and value your posts. Now, I'm confused by the positions you take. Do you really think you have the superior knowlege to those who have spent a lifetime on baseball fields? Is there really an idiot entrenched in the Reds' front office while you have so much more knowledge? Funny, he has a team, picked for last by almost everyone, within a whisker of first place in the Central and leading the Wild Card while you sit far from a baseball field and type very bold criticism.

I didn't say I could do it or would even want to do it, but I would wager that a ton of qualified people exist that could do all the other things involved in being a GM and do an excellent job, but because they aren't connected, never even get a chance.

[Falls City Beer]

Let me guess, had you not gotten screwed over by your high school coach you would have a hall of fame career right? Honestly that is one of the most absurd statements I have heard on this board.

One more gem in a long line of fine contributions to this board.

[redsfanmia]

np

[redsfanmia]

One more gem in a long line of fine contributions to this board.
Thanks for the compliment I live my life to make positive contributions to this board.

[Falls City Beer]

* Managing an orginization including the entire farm system, all of the scouts, player development people, the marketing department, promotions department, etc. All of these "disciplines" require different skills and tallents to work effectivley with them and encourage them to work at their most effective level.
.

So you really think CEOs or Deans (in my line of work) have a lot to do with the daily machinations of all their underlings?

I've got some swampland to sell you.

CEOs and Deans typically have next to NO day-to-day contact with their underlings--they are figureheads with the power to reduce force or shuffle bodies at the stroke of a pen. Wayne Krivsky delegates 99% of the tasks you listed above. His job is to negotiate and direct. Now, again, as I said above, I wouldn't want any part of a job like that, and honestly, I don't think I'd be any good as a GM--but I don't doubt for one second that there are highly qualified baseball GMs out there who, for whatever reason, never get the chance.

Just ask yourself: how did Dan O'Brien get to be GM of a MLB team? Was it really all talent? Or did it have something to do with his old man being in the biz?

[Ltlabner]

So you really think CEOs or Deans (in my line of work) have a lot to do with the daily machinations of all their underlings?

I've got some swampland to sell you.

CEOs and Deans typically have next to NO day-to-day contact with their underlings--they are figureheads with the power to reduce force or shuffle bodies at the stroke of a pen. Wayne Krivsky delegates 99% of the tasks you listed above. His job is to negotiate and direct. Now, again, as I said above, I wouldn't want any part of a job like that, and honestly, I don't think I'd be any good as a GM--but I don't doubt for one second that there are highly qualified baseball GMs out there who, for whatever reason, never get the chance.


Well, no. They don't deal with the "daily machinations". But they darn well better have an idea of what is going on down there. And they better have a "vision" to communciate and a direction they want the team to go it. They give the "underlings" their marching orders and the good bosses then let the employees go do their jobs. And those marching orders better come from someone who knows how to relate to the various disciplines and can think generally in their mindset.

I'd dare say there is little in common between university deans and baseball GM's other than the broad concepts of organizational management.


but I don't doubt for one second that there are highly qualified baseball GMs out there who, for whatever reason, never get the chance.[/

I don't dissagree with THIS statement. However, your original comment was that there were lots of people on this internet forum could jump right into running a baseball franchise.

[Falls City Beer]

I don't dissagree with THIS statement. However, your original comment was that there were lots of people on this internet forum could jump right into running a baseball franchise.

I said "really knowledgeable people on this board." I trust there are people on this board with tremendous business and negotiating acumen, who, combined with great baseball knowledge, could be great GMs.

I didn't say "lots," by the way.

[Ltlabner]

I said "really knowledgeable people on this board." I trust there are people on this board with tremendous business and negotiating acumen, who, combined with great baseball knowledge, could be great GMs.

I didn't say "lots," by the way.


What you said was....
The only things that the really knowledgeable people on this board lack as compared to Wayne Krivsky (or any GM for that matter) is the inside connections.

You are right. You did not say "lots". My mistake.

[Team Clark]

Let me guess, had you not gotten screwed over by your high school coach you would have a hall of fame career right? Honestly that is one of the most absurd statements I have heard on this board.

I played behind a coaches son and made out alright!! :laugh: Just havin' a little fun folks.... I'll be here the rest of the week...

[Tom Lawless Fan]

I played behind a coaches son and made out alright!! :laugh: Just havin' a little fun folks.... I'll be here the rest of the week...

You made out with the coache's son?:eek:

:thumbdown

[Team Clark]

You made out with the coache's son?:eek:

:thumbdown


Go to do what you got to do to get some playin' time! :laugh:

[JEA]

I read a great quote the other day that said this "People who rely SOLELY on statistics to evaluate players want the game to be played this way. Batter walks up to the plate and holds up a sign with a statistical equation, the pitcher holds up a similar card with a similar equation. The stats guy wants the umpire to take out a calculator and figure out if he gets a hit or not".


So, did you ever find the source of the quote? I'd love to hear the name of the person who penned such a short-sighted take on the game.

[TRF]

So his 30 years working his way through the system, which include 27 years of scouting, all of his experiences in negotiating contracts for Major League players, including salary arbitration cases and multi-year deals basicly mean nothing?

OK, I can see that.

How many years experience did DanO have before being hired?

But to what FCB said about Krivsky's vision. He undervalues offense, or at least seems to. The Reds had a ton of offense in place when he arrived, and he has traded away quite a bit of it. WMP, Kearns and FeLo all left for pitching. However only Arroyo has made a truely positive impact. Majewski's impact was negative, Bray's neutral.

Phillips, Hatte and Ross were his offensive aquisitions. Phillips by his own admission he had to be talked into. Good thing he had someone on staff to do that. And since it was so soon into his tenure, I doubt it was a Krivsky hire, so he gets no points for BP. Hatte was supposed to be a PT player that is having a career year. But it was a helluva pickup considering nobody wanted the guy. Giving him an extension was also a good idea IMO as it allows Votto another year to develop. Ross in a way reminds me of Cecil Fielder. You could see Fielder was going to be a power hitting monster early in his career, but for whatever reason, he never got a shot. Ross was the same way.

I don't think you can over-value pitching, but you sure can misjudge it. And Krivsky has done that. A lot. Since Arroyo, only one of Krivsky's pitching aquisitions has really worked. Bray has been no better than average. Guardado is on the DL. Lohse has been outstanding in thee starts. Franklin is a disaster. Cormier is unable to pitch. Yan was awful. Maj... sigh.

And yes, it takes time. It also takes a little better ability to judge talent. Why get Franklin when Belisle was about to come off the DL? adding a crappy RH isn't adding depth. Why trade for Schoenweiss when Shackleford has been better against LH hitters?

Sometimes it seems he makes moves for the sake of making moves. Now if the reason for that is to create a buzz about the team, get people talking in the hopes that it translates to a few more walkups, great. But taking a flyer on a guy like Yan is silly. Not knowing the health of a player you are trading for is amateurish, and then trading for more players that are banged up limits the effectiveness of your club, decreasing their chances to win.

Just like a manager can over manage (Boone, Bob) A GM can also over do it. And his overdoing it has handicapped the Reds more than once this year.

[redsmetz]

For the most part, I credit Krivsky competitive desire for us being still in this thing.

I think his earlier moves were better than his later moves. His later moves smell of desperation........his earlier ones were more solid.

I'm still upset that we have so many starting pitching questions. I don't think Lohse is the answer. Once NL hitters see him a time or two, I fear the near 7.00 era from the AL will start popping up again. But so far.....he's getting it done.

The bullpen trade was a good idea and good on paper. Bray and Magic had solid numbers for the Nationals. Bowden snaked us again........and I don't completely blame Krivsky for that.

Guardado amazingly turned out alright. Guardado's Seattle numbers made that look questionable.

But the Phillips, Ross, and Arroyo moves were season changing moves.

I think they gave up on Dave Williams way too soon. I know he was sucking badly, but his career numbers were nowhere in the range of a Joe Mays. Geez. That was a pathetic experiment.

This is a well stated post. Regarding "The Trade", there is no question that at that point in the season, the Bullpen was so dreadful, it could not be relied on in the least bit. I think the trade is important on that point alone. Long term? Let's see how these players pan out.

I think you're right on Dave Williams. The better option, in retrospect, would have been to use the option on him to send him to Louisville to work things out. That's not a give. It remains to be seen how he performs with the Mets, but it would have been interesting.

I keep saying it. Long term will tell the tale of Wayne Krivskey. He was handed a horrible broken down shack and he's been rebuilding it throughout the season. I'm for seeing how the off season goes. I'm also interested in seeing how Krivskey does with this year's Rule V draft, both on the MLB level as well as the Minor League phase. He may be grabbing other folks minor leaguers right and left to restock our system.

[osuceltic]

For the dot races... what else is there?



You know what I'd love?

I'd love it if folks would realize that turning around a battleship isn't as easy as turning around a car, and that building a baseball team takes more then 8 months.

I'd like to think I know a lot about baseball history.

That said the expectations assigned to every one of the moves this season made in the wake of the worst Reds run in 50 odd years and the absolutley worst pitching that the franchise has ever experienced is unreal, as is the expectations that it can all be fixed quicker then it has been.

Teams don't stink like the Reds have the past few seasons and turn around in 1 season, and with their ML system it should take even longer.

You may think they can, but I don't.. so if you want to keep saying it can I'll reserve to the right to say you're off base with that assertion.
I'm a little late, but had to chime in to say how much I agree with this. This is spot on.

The fact that the Reds are in playoff contention changes the approach. Would Krivsky be doing all these smaller deals if the Reds were 10 games out? Probably not. He's just trying to piece together enough from day to day to get the team to the postseason. That's what it's about.

[westofyou]

I keep saying it. Long term will tell the tale of Wayne Krivskey.

1983 Bill James on the Royals


At this point in his career John Schuerholz has yet to try anything that has worked.

The pathetic thing about John Schuerholz is that he fancies himself a gambler, but a gambler is in fact, exactly what he’s not.

A return to the top of the division in the next 3-4 years is all but out of the question.


1986 Bill James on the Royals


John Schuerholz has to be given credit for what he has done, it's a simple game. If you win you deserve credit for it. John Schuerholz has rebuilt the Royals into one of the best teams in baseball.

[Johnny Footstool]

Comparing Schuerholz to Krivsky is like comparing apples to snow tires.

[westofyou]

Comparing Schuerholz to Krivsky is like comparing apples to snow tires.
Really? I'd say comparing Scotty Bowman and Krivsky would be like comparing apples and snowtires.

But then again who said I was comparing him to anybody?

All I'm pointing out is that nobody knows what the future holds.

BTW what was J.S. doing for the Royals in the late 70's?

[REDREAD]

CEOs and Deans typically have next to NO day-to-day contact with their underlings--they are figureheads with the power to reduce force or shuffle bodies at the stroke of a pen.

Funny story along that line. I won't mention the company, because it will embarrass them, but I worked for a medium sized company a while ago. The CEO would try to be "hands on".. If the sales staff thought we were going to lose a big sale, he'd step in and basically promise the customer anything they wanted, including things that were impossible. It was always comical to get our list of "customizations" for the customer that the CEO agreed to. There was always at least one that was impossible technically. Then, we'd get to have a 3 month arguement with the sales staff, trying to explain to them that the change could not be done, and they'd just fire back that the "CEO promised it" to them. :laugh: