manager bashing [Archive] - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

Always Red

08-20-2006, 07:16 AM

Two years after leading the Reds to back-to-back World Championships, future Hall of Fame manager Sparky Anderson was fired. For finishing in 2nd place twice in a row.

There is just no pleasing some people, eh?

Jerry Narron is a good man, and in some ways is a victim of his roster. Three catchers, and 25, yes count 'em, 25 pitchers this year thus far (with more to come, I'm sure). He's scrambling, trying to mix and match and find a fit, especially roles for the relief pitchers. I felt really sorry for Jerry last night as he was out on the mound taking Eddie out of the game- the look on Jerry's face said it all. He looked as if he was almost going to cry (I almost did too, thinking about Coffey as our closer again), and I could just read on his face - "what the @#%# are we going to do now?"

He's certainly made some moves that have puzzled me as well, but he seems to have settled on a solid lineup, and found a way to get RA, EE and BP's bats all in the game at the same time.

I'd give Jerry a B for the year thus far; he's far better than we've had in the recent past, and on the same page with his GM, which is so important these days.

I love Joe Torre; he could manage my team in a heartbeat, and he is made of better stuff than me if he can put up with the Boss in NYC.

LaRussa was not overly popular with the fans in Chicago while I lived there when he was managing the Sox, at least in the years after he won a surprise division title; they expected more. But he is very popular with the national baseball press, for some reason, who act as if he had a hand in inventing the game.

Ltlabner

08-20-2006, 07:37 AM

It's a "national pastime" of those who follow sports. There are always those fans that think they could do it better despite having zero experence, having never managed anything more complicated than a boyscout troupe and that they have the people skills on par with LBJ. Despite the fact they know NOTHING about what is going on behind the sceens they think it'd be easy to jump right in and lead the team to the world serries.

There will always be those obnoxious, arrogent jerks who think that because they know ABC data, or have read XYZ book, or played the game in high school that they are infinatley more qualified than the man at the helm.

It's part and parcel to being a MLB manager of knowing that you are the dumbest guy in the stadium because some rude, often drunken, idiots in the stands told you so.

"Bashing" is a sad, unfortunate and expected part of the game.

BTW, I'm not talking about legitimate criticism, constructive criticism or complaints from reasoned people who took the time to formulate a position based on facts or logic. Obviously no manager is immune from criticisms such as these, nor should they be.

Always Red

08-20-2006, 07:46 AM

John Fay has a nice article on Narron in today's Enquirer:
"Hey, get off Narron's back"
subtitled "nitpicking second-guessers overlook solid job he's doing."
LOL- that'll stir up the troops!

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060820/COL09/608200427/1071

MaineRed

08-20-2006, 11:31 AM

People are overlooking the solid job he is doing.

His small in game moves get beat to heck, including his line-ups. But he is doing a great job in the clubhouse.

It is too bad how much people overlook that. Many here seem to think a managers job only takes place in the dugout.

There are many on this site who I feel will die without ever seeing a good Reds manager. No one will ever do things exactly as they would so no one is ever going to make them happy.

PressBox

08-20-2006, 11:45 AM

Tony LaRussa has been just bashed just as much as he has been revered in St. Louis. There are those Card fans who still hold it against LaRussa that he benched Ozzie Smith and pretty much ran him out of town....I believe this was during LaRussa's first year with St.L in 1996. He benched Ozzie so that a young kid named Royce Clayton could take over. Ha.

TOBTTReds

08-20-2006, 11:59 AM

CincySportsFan1

08-20-2006, 01:05 PM

Narron is doing a great job and he may get manager of the year.

CincySportsFan1

08-20-2006, 01:11 PM

Listening to XM the other day, they had a big segment on how unhappy a central team's fans were. I thought the seg coming up was about the Reds...nope. Cardinals fans are NOT happy with their team at all.
Honestly, outside of us and the Brewers, every team in the central has been a disappointment, so I can see why the fans are angry. The Cardinals were thought to be by far the best team in the NL and they have not even come close to being that. I heard Cubs fans talking that it was finally their time to break their curse after picking up Pierre and that Wood and Prior would finally stay healthy but you know the story on that... The Astros after coming off their first WS appearance and for the most part keeping the same ball club have disappointed fans with their inconsistant play. Pirates fans I guess knew what was coming.... Wait they have fans?

Tom Lawless Fan

08-20-2006, 04:01 PM

You people just don't like him because he talks funny.

I dont sounds as smart as I really am so theres your example right there.

Rocket_Fuel

08-20-2006, 08:54 PM

Always Red

08-20-2006, 09:06 PM

John Fay means nothing to me, thus his opinion means nothing to me.
well...ok...

2001MUgrad

08-20-2006, 09:32 PM

I agree.

I think Narron must to a really good job off the field with people. Regardless, everything is about people and how you treat people. That was the one thing about Bobboone that was so irratating to players. I just questions some of Narron's lineups. But, honestly, I find myself questioning his use of pitchers much much much less than I have with recent Reds managers.

SunDeck

08-21-2006, 07:17 AM

Honestly, outside of us and the Brewers, every team in the central has been a disappointment, so I can see why the fans are angry.

I don't recall preseason predictions of the Reds being in the division race. Anyone who is dissappointed with them is just expecting way too much from this team.

RedFanAlways1966

08-21-2006, 07:47 AM

I don't recall preseason predictions of the Reds being in the division race. Anyone who is dissappointed with them is just expecting way too much from this team.

:clap:

redsmetz

08-21-2006, 08:57 AM

Kudos to this whole thread, folks. Jerry Narron has grown on me. You hear him and you think "I can't listen to this guy". His goofy laugh notwithstanding, he's got a wry sense of humor, he seems to know the game and seems to work at having it played right. He came into this season with a really mongrel of a roster and I think he and Wayne are weaving it into a pretty decent patchwork quilt [mixed metaphor alert there! :) ]. I'm not sure there are many managers who could have taken the awful team DOB had constructed and turn it into a contending team during the season with little dissension in the ranks.

Rotater Cuff

08-21-2006, 01:53 PM

I'm not sure there are many managers who could have taken the awful team DOB had constructed and turn it into a contending team during the season with little dissension in the ranks.

Yes, but . . . . .pitching Franklin another inning against the heart of the Cardinals lineup in the 9th inning. Many posters on this board were warning against that during the break b4 the inning started. That was a wake up call for Narron's gray matter.

TOBTTReds

08-21-2006, 01:58 PM

I don't recall preseason predictions of the Reds being in the division race. Anyone who is dissappointed with them is just expecting way too much from this team.

He was talking about the Cards.

Either way, I don't think anyone is dissapointed with the Reds, they are just dissapointed with the manager.

He makes some AWFUL decisions.

redsmetz

08-21-2006, 02:24 PM

He was talking about the Cards.

Either way, I don't think anyone is dissapointed with the Reds, they are just dissapointed with the manager.

He makes some AWFUL decisions.

And I think you misunderstood SunDeck's comment. It's this manager who has this team in contention.

MaineRed

08-21-2006, 02:30 PM

He makes some AWFUL decisions.

So does every manager in baseball.

Give me a manager who gets burned on a hunch here and there but runs a good clubhouse any day of the week.

Narron continues to be above .500 with the Reds while the people before him couldn't even come close.

The players play for Jerry. Its too bad that message is not posted as much on this board as all the comments about what a fool Narron is. Its no less important. But you'd never know it by what gets said here.

Everyone claims that they are only being honest and reporting on what they see when commenting on Narron. I'd just like someone to point out what a moron Narron is, in game and then go onto say that they have to give him credit for what he does with the clubhouse. Even when Kearns and Lopez were here he was getting production from Freel, Hatte, Aurillia, Phillips and Edwin. Production. Good production, from SIX infielders.

The guy is no baseball genius but he isn't nearly as bad as people say he is. No way you replace him as easily as some say we could. He is doing a good job.

dabvu2498

08-21-2006, 02:38 PM

So does every manager in baseball.

In early August, 2004, Bostonians were ready to skin Terry Francona alive.

Managing is macros and micros. We (fans) see the micros every day (lineups, in-game decisions) and very rarely see the macros (team chemistry, morale, preparation). Every manager in MLB gets criticized for his micros because the execution of so many of them fail miserably and we (fans) should be accustomed to that.

Managers who fail with macros are the ones who get fired. (Mike Hargrove up next.)

captain11

08-21-2006, 02:46 PM

I think Narron has done a wonderful job.

MaineRed

08-21-2006, 02:51 PM

In early August, 2004, Bostonians were ready to skin Terry Francona alive.

Managing is macros and micros. We (fans) see the micros every day (lineups, in-game decisions) and very rarely see the macros (team chemistry, morale, preparation). Every manager in MLB gets criticized for his micros because the execution of so many of them fail miserably and we (fans) should be accustomed to that.

Managers who fail with macros are the ones who get fired. (Mike Hargrove up next.)

Bingo.

flyer85

08-21-2006, 02:54 PM

Managers who fail with macros are the ones who get fired.Grady Little wants to discuss that.

dabvu2498

08-21-2006, 02:56 PM

Grady Little wants to discuss that.
I'd say single-handedly costing your team a chance to win the ALCS counts as a macro.

flyer85

08-21-2006, 03:05 PM

I'd say single-handedly costing your team a chance to win the ALCS counts as a macro.a symptom of what what he did.

He was guilty of ignoring objective evidence(given to him before the game) and going with his subjective opinion in direct conflict with the objective data. (stuff that narron does a little too frequently, although by far my biggest argument with narron is complete ignorance of the concept of leverage when using his bullpen).

dabvu2498

08-21-2006, 03:14 PM

a symptom of what what he did.

He was guilty of ignoring objective evidence(given to him before the game) and going with his subjective opinion in direct conflict with the objective data. (stuff that narron does a little too frequently, although by far my biggest argument with narron is complete ignorance of the concept of leverage when using his bullpen).
How do you define "leverage" with regards to use of the bullpen?

redsmetz

08-21-2006, 03:18 PM

Every manager in MLB gets criticized for his micros because the execution of so many of them fail miserably and we (fans) should be accustomed to that.

In a sport where your offense fails more than 70% of in each of their offensive chances (i.e. batting .300), it's easy for the micro to look miserable. And on the team level, the best winning percentages still had teams failing nearly 40% of the time. Again, the micro looks miserable.

flyer85

08-21-2006, 03:22 PM

How do you define "leverage" with regards to use of the bullpen?Understanding situation so you have your best pitchers pitch the most important innings and you worst pitch the least important innings. When you ignore the concept you end up with tired arms and guys unable to pitch when really needed. The modern concept of a closer is an abomination to the proper use of bullpen resources unless you have a situation where you 2-3 really good relievers in your pen.

Perfect examples from the last 4 days/
Thursday - having Franklin(likely worst pitcher in the pen) pitch the 9th ining of a tie game of what was the biggest game of the year.
Friday - having Coffey pitch the 8th with your team down 6 runs
Saturday - having Franklin back out there again with a one run lead in the 7th and then having Weathers pitch the 8th with a 7 run lead
Sunday - having Weathers finish with a 4 run lead

Narron has used guys like Weather/Coffey far too many times in basically meaningless situations which then causes him not to be able to use them on occassion when they are really needed. Especially a problem for the last few weeks with only three RHP in the bullpen.

MaineRed

08-21-2006, 03:24 PM

micros get turned into macros when you have gone 85 years without a World Series in a baseball crazed town. Especially when you expect to win and are expected to win. Someone had to fry in Boston for what happened and the easiest choice was Grady. But all of a sudden he isn't such a fool anymore. Winning 19 of 22 will do that for you. From idiot to Manager of the Year (very possible).

That is one reason I think Narron deserves a break. Nobody expects the Reds to compete. I never see anyone say before the season that we have the team to go a long way but Narron will screw it up. But then we compete (blame it on league incompetence if you like), lead the WC or the division for a near majority of the season and all of a sudden when our flawed team that had no shot without even bringing up the manager, loses, it is the managers fault.

I think everyone here can see that Jerry makes headscratching moves. But to many of us, it is beyond annoying to constantly read what a fool he is when every manager in the bigs makes head scratching moves and so would all of us if we were managers. It becomes most annoying when the Reds lose 2-1, with the line-up many critics had been crying for and then Jerry still gets blamed.

We win with Clayton in the line-up and Narron got lucky because Rich should be at short.

We lose 2-1 with the dream offensive line-up and Narron is a fool for bringing Franklin in to face Pujols and Rolen, as if we have some dominant pitcher who is going to scare either one.

It is baseball and this is going on at every baseball message board. Part of the deal I guess. I'll just never understand the contstant belief that the next guy will be better. Just like every proffesion, some guys are better than others, sure. But why is it always the guys with the most talent who are winning?

I've just don't see a lot, if any examples of a team that is considered mediocre before even talking about the manager being driven over the top by a managerial change. There always seem to be a big talent upgrade along with the managerial change. Leyland looks like a gem in Detroit. Does he have the Reds pitching staff? Does he have the Reds bullpen?

Talent baby. Did anyone say we had the talent to be in this thing before the season started?

Obviously Narron is not doing too bad then, is he?

westofyou

08-21-2006, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Ricardo Cabesa
a symptom of what what he did.

He was guilty of ignoring objective evidence(given to him before the game) and going with his subjective opinion in direct conflict with the objective data.

“We were known early for being computerized,” said Alderson, “but we dumped it a tactical [dugout] level while keeping it at the strategic [front office] level.”

“We found that [statistical] stuff began to override all the other material tools-intuition, human relationships, recent trends, and hot streaks. We began to have doubts about the computer in a foxhole setting. I was a Marine lieutenant in Vietnam and there is a heat-of-the battle mentality, you don’t want the players thinking that the manager has more faith in a machine then in them.”

Sandy Alderson 1988

“Weaver isolated all the important stats 15 years ago.”

Frank Cashen 1986

flyer85

08-21-2006, 03:33 PM

I didn't realize that Pedro got out of the jam and the Yanks out and the Red Sox went on to the World Series in 2003.

dabvu2498

08-21-2006, 03:38 PM

I didn't realize that Pedro got out of the jam and the Yanks out and the Red Sox went on to the World Series in 2003.
You lost me.

I did figure out that because of GL's reluctance to remove Pedro, the Sox Win Expectancy changed from .941 to .312 in 10 minutes time. (Thanks to www.walkoffbalk.com)

Newman4

08-21-2006, 03:48 PM

Well, I guess you can't have it all, but I, for one, think Jerry gets too much credit for 'intangible' type stuff like 'chemistry', 'running the clubhouse', 'getting players to play for him' and 'morale'.

How do you measure those things anyways?

Apparently whenever a manager has a winning season he somehow gains all of these 'intangible' qualities. Where were they last year with Narron? How about in Texas when he had two sub .500 finishes?

Seems like saying to your friend that his ugly blind date you set him up with is 'nice' or 'has a great personality' when you can't think of anything good to say.

Narron's people skills don't make up for several previously mentions goof ups or 'micro's as you guys like to say. How many 'micro' screw ups does he have to have for it to be a 'macro' problem?

flyer85

08-21-2006, 03:48 PM

You lost me.

I did figure out that because of GL's reluctance to remove Pedro, the Sox Win Expectancy changed from .941 to .312 in 10 minutes time. (Thanks to www.walkoffbalk.com (http://www.walkoffbalk.com))Grady Little was in a bad spot

1) He had one of the best pitchers of all time on the mound.
2) His management presented him with data before the game that the 2003 version of Pedro was not very good after 100 pitches

In the end the outcome would be what would justify the decision because of what was at stake in this ONE game.

He went with his gut instead of a bullpen that had been lights out in the playoff. If he had removed Martinez and the bullpen blew up he would have been skewered for that. Little ended up in a situation where only the outcome mattered(not just playing the proper percentages, which is all a manager can ever really hope to do). Afterall anyone who plays poker knows you can play the percentages perfectly and still lose on that last improbable turn of a card and that's what gets remembered. The best you can hope to do is stack the percentages in favor and play the correct odds. Doesn't mean it will always turn out in your favor.

flyer85

08-21-2006, 03:50 PM

How do you measure those things anyways?
Wins and Losses are the only objective measure even if they don't really tell you much because you never know what a different manager could have done with the team.

dabvu2498

08-21-2006, 04:00 PM

How many 'micro' screw ups does he have to have for it to be a 'macro' problem?
Good post! Thankfully, the answer to the question is for the owner to decide.

RedsManRick

08-21-2006, 04:13 PM

Not that managers are above reproach, but you have to wonder how often a decision is made based on information that simply isn't available to the public.

For example, your closer has Diarrhea and so he can't pitch that night. He pitched the night before, but had two nights off before that. Normally he'd be available. The primary setup man has been used 3 straight nights and isn't available. A closing situation comes up and the manager uses a middle reliever who goes on to blow the game.

At the press conference, people freak out about him not being used, and rumors fly about him being on the hot seat or being injured. People on the message boards say that the closer was being babied and blame the manager for overprotecting him. The manager doesn't say anything because it would be embarrasing to the player. So the manager takes the heat, says it was his call, and moves on.

Who knows how many of these kinds of situations come up that the public never hears about? We always assume we have perfect information. Of course, there are plenty of times when we do have the best info and the manager just screws up. But I think we have a tendency to assume we know more than we do.

Redsland

08-21-2006, 04:17 PM

Yeah, but when two or three people have diarrhea every night, it might be time to question your choice of caterer.

westofyou

08-21-2006, 04:24 PM

Yeah, but when two or three people have diarrhea every night, it might be time to question your choice of caterer.
That would be the Ribs King in the Reds case.

Highlifeman21

08-21-2006, 04:25 PM

I think Narron has done a wonderful job.

This team wins in spite of Jerry Narron

RedlegJake

08-21-2006, 07:14 PM

Sparky Anderson got crucified for his use of pitchers - "Capatain Hook" was a derogatory nickname when he first got it. He was criticized constantly DURING his tenure and became a genius only after the Reds won 2 straight WS. Before the '75 Series he was just a choke manager who couldn't get his team past the big one. Really. People were calling for his head after the '73 debacle with the Mets. Managers are never considered good by their own fans until well after they are dead or retired it seems. Managing is kind of like umping - every sees your decisions and at least half won't like it whatever you call. The ump has a big edge, though - he executes his own calls. The manager has to rely on the talent he has available to execute for him. This is what makes Torre a genius and Bell a moron. Give Bell the Yanks and they'd still win all the time. Give Torre the Royals and they're still the worst team in the big leagues. Narron gets crucified constantly for what his players don't do, and he gets too much credit from some for what they have accomplished so far.