Aug. 30th, 2006 CIN v. LAD .. *Fingers Crossed*

[Matt700wlw]

Hmmm...Maddux waivering bit...

[Aronchis]

His manager should stop letting him and Arroyo throw about 120 pitches every game.

Amen;)

[SteelSD]

What the hell is Hatty doing at 1st? God this is bad. What is Hatcher doing?

He

is

very

slow

[Matt700wlw]

Maddux at 72 pitches....and it's the 7th inning.

Wow.

[Reds Nd2]

Are going to be taking bets on when the next time the Reds win a game?

:help:

I'll take tonight if no one wants it.

[George Foster]

Why not Ross?

[Matt700wlw]

If the Reds fall to .500, it will be the first time since the second game of the year...they were 1-1 (I was at that game...Bronson's debut :D)

[George Foster]

Maddux at 72 pitches....and it's the 7th inning.

Wow.

No KY jelly either...it hurts bad.

[Reds Nd2]

He

is

very

slow

Randall Simon wasn't that slow. Hatty should have went to second on the throw.

[George Foster]

If the Reds fall to .500, it will be the first time since the second game of the year...they were 1-1 (I was at that game...Bronson's debut :D)

Really? We've been above .500 all year? I guess I forgot that. That's good.

[George Foster]

Dodgers will win the World Series. It's their year after that play. Did you see that throw? right on the bag. Palmer could not have lead him any better.

[Edskin]

No KY jelly either...it hurts bad.


Dude, what's with all the references?

I think you are sodomizing the gamethread.

[MWM]

I know Hatte is slow, but he he should have been at second after his hit, and should have at third on that fly ball.

[Reds Nd2]

Maddux showing tonight why he's won 15 Gold Gloves.

[DoogMinAmo]

I leave Redszone, the reds score. I come back, and two quick outs. Time for me to go for a while. good night all.

[George Foster]

I know Hatte is slow, but he he should have been at second after his hit, and should have at third on that fly ball.

That throw went all the way to the plate on the fly. No excuse there.

[vaticanplum]

For crying out loud, when did the Dodgers get so good? They're pulling off some really great stuff here. Last night's game was excrutiating because each team seemed to be displaying the same strengths (relief pitchers getting out of jams) and weaknesses (leaving men on base) -- there was no way to tell how it was going to come out and it wasn't surprising to me that it kept dragging on the way it did. But in general this team just seems to be on it. Maddux coming through, Penny pulling it together, their offense getting hot all at once -- they just seem to be peaking at the right time. I will say that for them. The Reds' timing, on the other hand, is on the brink of just about to be very very bad.

[alloverjr]

Hatte gives 'em a run then costs them one. From top to bottom this team is so fundamentally putrid you wonder if it's the coaching or all 25 guys are dumb. Could make the difference in a few wins a year if this somehow got corrected.

Props to Jerry for leaving Javy in the game, IMO.

[alloverjr]

Dude, what's with all the references?

I think you are sodomizing the gamethread.

:help:

[CTA513]

Im surprised Franklin isnt pitching after his 1 pitch performance yesterday.

[George Foster]

Maddux showing tonight why he's won 15 Gold Gloves.

I'd say 16 after this year. Imagine his trophy case in his TV room. Makes my little league trophys look pretty sad.:D

[SteelSD]

Randall Simon wasn't that slow. Hatty should have went to second on the throw.

If Sean Casey and Scott Hatteberg had a foot race, the loser would most likely be the guy with the most change in his pocket.

He's that slow.

[kyred14]

Im surprised Franklin isnt pitching after his 1 pitch performance yesterday.

No reason to use good pitchers while trailing..........

[RedsMan3203]

Is the site acting up and being slow for anyone else?

[Aronchis]

When Joey Votto comes up next year, it will be odd watching a first baseman with actually foot speed.

[vaticanplum]

Dodgers will win the World Series. It's their year after that play. Did you see that throw? right on the bag. Palmer could not have lead him any better.

I may be in the minority on this, but I think we're just as likely to see a Dodgers-Yankees WS as the Mets-Yankees WS that everybody's talking about. More so, maybe.

[George Foster]

Hatte gives 'em a run then costs them one. From top to bottom this team is so fundamentally putrid you wonder if it's the coaching or all 25 guys are dumb. Could make the difference in a few wins a year if this somehow got corrected.

Props to Jerry for leaving Javy in the game, IMO.

Fundamentally putrid is right on. Have to place that on the staff. I thought the staff "knows how to play the game the right way?"

[George Foster]

Is the site acting up and being slow for anyone else?

not me. I'm on a wireless laptop. How is your weather? lightning screws with DSL.

[SteelSD]

I know Hatte is slow, but he he should have been at second after his hit, and should have at third on that fly ball.

I've met you. You're even slower than Hatteberg. You'd have been thrown out at first after the play at the plate. :p:

[George Foster]

a base hit and a dinger ties it up....lets go!!!

[George Foster]

Tomco throwing gas...94mph fastball:confused:

[SteelSD]

BTW...

Yeah, this losing streak sucks and tonight isn't going so good but we're watching meaningful games going into September. If you ain't gonna' have fun now, then exactly what is the point?

Just sayin...

[RedsMan3203]

not me. I'm on a wireless laptop. How is your weather? lightning screws with DSL.

Everything is good - all other sites run well... Just seems like the zone is running a little slower then normal and I get the page cannot be displayed page more then once... So I was wondering maybe if there were updates going on or what.

[REDREAD]

Bummer 5-2 LA

[Matt700wlw]

Alright...bring in Wong Chong Bong King Kong and let's go home.

Winning the series in San Diego would be very very big.

[RedsMan3203]

Alright...bring in Wong Chong Bong and let's go home.

We still have another 3 hours... what are you talking about.... :devil:

[SteelSD]

Betemit HR. 5-2 Dodgers.

[kyred14]

I don't know what's worse, the Reds, or those awful JTM commerials. Simply brutal.

[CTA513]

Why no Franklin?
He threw 1 pitch yesterday and the rest of the guys in the bullpen pitched about 1-2 inning each.

[Matt700wlw]

We still have another 3 hours... what are you talking about.... :devil:

Nooooooooooo! :D

[SteelSD]

I don't know what's worse, the Reds, or those awful JTM commerials. Simply brutal.

The crap music they play after innings and during pitching changes on mlb.tv is five times worse than JTM commercials.

[Reds1]

I dont' know if it's just me, but I feel sick watching the Reds. I so want them to stay in it and to watch it just slip away - well, mekes me sick. Major rally cap needed!

[Matt700wlw]

I'm hoping a day off can recharge everybody's batteries....team and fans.

[MWM]

I've met you. You're even slower than Hatteberg. You'd have been thrown out at first after the play at the plate. :p:

Maybe so, but I'm a pretty good baserunner. Actually, after looking at Hatte I can see why as a hard time getting to second base. :evil:

[REDREAD]

6-2.. Getting hopeless.

[Patrick Bateman]

The crap music they play after innings and during pitching changes on mlb.tv is five times worse than JTM commercials.

I'm getting tired of the Tom Petty promo on MLB.TV myself. It could be anyone singing, but when you hear the same thing 20 times a game, every game it gets a little annoying.

[George Foster]

see you later guys...

[RedsMan3203]

Good night folks....

Carson Palmer is waiting for Freel to stop by with the tourch.

[kyred14]

The season is crumbling before our eyes. I hate west coast trips.

[Matt700wlw]

*sigh*

In a selfish perspective, I may be able to get a beer after this mess...maybe, if they can get some guys out.

[MWM]

Last night marked the 5th time this year the Reds have lost 5+ games in a row. That's mind boggling. 5 losing streaks of five games or more.

Just for reference, the '99 team never lost more than 3 in a row the entire season.

[vaticanplum]

oh my god

[REDREAD]

Another Hr.. Belisle is pulling a Franklin.

[George Foster]

Belisle might not be on the roster tomorrow...

[Patrick Bateman]

Anyone sick of the Dodgers yet?

3 homers in the inning now.

[CTA513]

Leave him in there, no reason to waste another pitcher.

[REDREAD]

Belisle faces 3 batters and gives up 2 HR..

[Patrick Bateman]

Belisle might not be on the roster tomorrow...

No chance of that.

[dsmith421]

seventy nine wins was my prediction from the outset, and looks pretty good now.

[SteelSD]

Maybe so, but I'm a pretty good baserunner. Actually, after looking at Hatte I can see why as a hard time getting to second base. :evil:

:laugh:

As distinguished gentlemen, I think we can both understand that.;)

7-2 Dodgers. Just have to laugh at that too. Ugh.

[Aronchis]

Belisle DFA'd.

[WVRedsFan]

It might be best for Wayne and Bob to quit worrying about the playoffs and begin to plan for next year. Unbelievable.

I think you football fanatics can now desert this board and start following the Bengals full time. This season is over.


(of course, you never know what might happen, but this collapse is complete)

[Reds Nd2]

The crap music they play after innings and during pitching changes on mlb.tv is five times worse than JTM commercials.

It's alot better than the silence they were playing between innings though.

[LincolnparkRed]

Pretty tough to win when to win any of the games during the streak we would have needed at least 5. Can't count on that every night, the DP are Casey like in proportion.

PS anyone see him get thrown out at second on a wild pitch/passed ball, I don't miss watching him run the bases, he almost killed Jeter who tagged him 6ft from the bag

[CTA513]

Belisle DFA'd.

Doesnt he still have options?

If he gets DFA'd he should make sure Franklin goes with him.

[Chip R]

I think that is the first time I have seen a hanging fastball. :eek:

[Patrick Bateman]

It looks really bleak right now, but things can turn around in a hurry.

3 game series against the Pads. We win at least 2 and we're right back in the thick of things.

[Super_Barry11]

Belisle DFA'd.

I don't care how much he stinks. He better not be DFA'd. If the Reds are going to keep losing like this, they can at least keep the cutest Red on the team so that I can be entertained somehow.

;)

[SteelSD]

It's alot better than the silence they were playing between innings though.

Actually I like the silence just as I like elevator rides without Muzak. If it sucks, I'd rather hear nothing.

[Patrick Bateman]

Belisle DFA'd.


That's just not going to happen. With September call-ups they will at least keep him around to split mop-up duty with Franklin. There's zero upside in DFA'ing him.

[kyred14]

It might be best for Wayne and Bob to quit worrying about the playoffs and begin to plan for next year. Unbelievable.

I think you football fanatics can now desert this board and start following the Bengals full time. This season is over.


(of course, you never know what might happen, but this collapse is complete)

You know I've thought that it was falling apart a couple of times eariler this year. However, I think it just be happening this time. Disappionting, but not the least bit suprising.

[redsrule2500]

This is so sad why did this have to happen.

I think I'm gonna puke. :(

I get sad everytime i think of the Reds now

[OldRightHander]

Well, this is the OldRightHander, rounding third and heading for bed...Good night everyone.

[Matt700wlw]

Marty just raised a good point...you see very little fire with this team. People walking to their positions, lollygagging around.

They've shown know signs they want to turn it around, but they'll never admit it publically

(Marty paraphrased)

[WVRedsFan]

I only ask one thing of Krivsky in the off-season.

Do not bring us anymore retread pitchers. If they failed at Cleveland and Boston, they'll fail here. If they were DFA'd somewhere else, they won't do crap here. If they've pitched at lot wherever they've been, they'll be worn out when you get them, and finally.

Don't go trading young players who play decently for worthless pitchers.

We've seen enough of that.

I'm changing my signature soon. "his" team is just the same as Jimbo's and Dano's teams.

( of course, I'll feel better in the morning)

[Cedric]

Why did anyone ever assume Belisle would be a good pitcher? He has no ability to locate pitches.

He's 94 mph straight and never where it should be.

[CTA513]

Marty just raised a good point...you see very little fire with this team. People walking to their positions, lollygagging around.

They've shown know signs they want to turn it around, but they'll never admit it publically

(Marty paraphrased)

People on here have said the same thing and been laughed at for bringing it up.

[Aronchis]

Why did anyone ever assume Belisle would be a good pitcher? He has no ability to locate pitches.

He's 94 mph straight and never where it should be.

Then he has that bad back. He deserved a chance at the beginning of the season if he could substain some of the modest success he had last year, but he hasn't. It is clearly evident Coffey,Brey and Maj are the future of the Reds BP, Belisle is not among them.

[Reds Nd2]

Actually I like the silence just as I like elevator rides without Muzak. If it sucks, I'd rather hear nothing.

Oh it sucks, but getting up between innings, doing stuff, and then realizing the game wasn't going on because the feed had stopped sucks much worse.

[vaticanplum]

Marty just raised a good point...you see very little fire with this team. People walking to their positions, lollygagging around.

They've shown know signs they want to turn it around, but they'll never admit it publically

(Marty paraphrased)

No question that this has been the case recently, but I would say the exact opposite for much of this season. In fact I believe that their fire and refusal to lose has been a notable part of their success -- more so than their actual talent.

[Reds Nd2]

Well, this is the OldRightHander, rounding third and heading for bed...Good night everyone.

You've made it through the last two games, you can suck it up and get through this one.

[TheBigLebowski]

Please...baseball gods...help us pull this one out somehow.

[SteelSD]

Marty just raised a good point...you see very little fire with this team. People walking to their positions, lollygagging around.

I'll take issue with Marty's words on that every time considering that everything done since before the ASB was allegedly to change the team's makeup and chemistry.

Marty's full of poo. Winning breeds perception of effort. Losing breeds the opposite. The defining characteristic isn't effort. It's talent.

[alloverjr]

He's 94 mph straight

And that's the biggest problem of his that I see. No movement.

[Aronchis]

And that's the biggest problem of his that I see. No movement.

Homer Bailey's fastball doesn't have much movement either. Location is the key.

[Patrick Bateman]

If they were DFA'd somewhere else, they won't do crap here.



I would never completely close the book on DFA'd pitchers. It's unlikely, but there is the occasional success stroy.

Bobby Jenks comes to mind. He obviously had age on his side unlike the guys we have picked up, but there is the occasional gem to uncover.

[Matt700wlw]

I'll take issue with Marty's words on that every time considering that everything done since before the ASB was allegedly to change the team's makeup and chemistry.

Marty's full of poo. Winning breeds perception of effort. Losing breeds the opposite. The defining characteristic isn't effort. It's talent.


I don't think he meant the whole season, but in this stretch. I don't know that, but I would agree if he means in the short term.

[TheBigLebowski]

I feel sick.

[CTA513]

I would never completely close the book on DFA'd pitchers. It's unlikely, but there is the occasional success stroy.

Bobby Jenks comes to mind. He obviously had age on his side unlike the guys we have picked up, but there is the occasional gem to uncover.

After watching Bobby Jenks pitch over the past 2 seasons I cant believe someone would let him go.

[dsmith421]

Marty just raised a good point...you see very little fire with this team. People walking to their positions, lollygagging around.


I was at all three of the losses in San Francisco and noticed this as well. I remarked to my friend that they looked like a 90-loss team hurrying up to get a flight.

That's not good. I had hoped that the addition of battle-tested vets like Guardado, Holly, etc., would have upped the intensity, but I guess when you have our kind of roster turnover it's hard to foster such a change.

[WVRedsFan]

I would never completely close the book on DFA'd pitchers. It's unlikely, but there is the occasional success stroy.

Bobby Jenks comes to mind. He obviously had age on his side unlike the guys we have picked up, but there is the occasional gem to uncover.

True, AK, but...one in a hundred. If you're lucky.

Spend some cash (and not on 39-yr old lefthanders who are over the hill) and get pitchers who have velocity and movement. And have been successful in the past.

[alloverjr]

Homer Bailey's fastball doesn't have much movement either. Location is the key.


Never seen Homer pitch or read a scouting report. And while I'll agree location is important as hell, you're not going to have it every outing. Movement can make up for those times.

[vaticanplum]

Cripes, do the Dodgers fans boo EVERYTHING that doesn't favor the Dodgers, even if it's earned? I've never heard much about Dodgers fans being vulgar, but through my radio they've sounded awful this entire series.

[TheBigLebowski]

Can you say 4.5 back in the Central??

[SteelSD]

I don't think he meant the whole season, but in this stretch. I don't know that, but I would agree if he means in the short term.

Then the moves that were positioned to change team "culture" (at best) didn't change team culture. That's not a player issue.

[TheBigLebowski]

Matt Belisle rocks.

[kyred14]

:lol: Clayton is utter definition of worthless.

[Matt700wlw]

Can you say 4.5 back in the Central??

I can, but I won't :)

[Wheelhouse]

I'll take issue with Marty's words on that every time considering that everything done since before the ASB was allegedly to change the team's makeup and chemistry.

Marty's full of poo. Winning breeds perception of effort. Losing breeds the opposite. The defining characteristic isn't effort. It's talent.

Now I know you've lost it...

[Patrick Bateman]

True, AK, but...one in a hundred. If you're lucky.

Spend some cash (and not on 39-yr old lefthanders who are over the hill) and get pitchers who have velocity and movement. And have been successful in the past.

Unfortunately, nobody is currently giving any of those away right now, which is why it's neccessary to look under every rock for avaiable pitching.

[Matt700wlw]

A 3 run ding dong and it's a 1 run game...


In case anybody is still awake :)

[Chip R]

I'll take issue with Marty's words on that every time considering that everything done since before the ASB was allegedly to change the team's makeup and chemistry.

Marty's full of poo. Winning breeds perception of effort. Losing breeds the opposite. The defining characteristic isn't effort. It's talent.

I agree. When you are winning, you look like you are full of fire and spirit and vigor. When you are losing, you look tired and listless. Especially when you are on a big losing streak. Who is not trying out there? I just saw Jr. haul ass to 1st on a nubber to the left side. I know a lot of people do not like Aurilia but the man comes to play every single day wherever you put him. A lot of that perception comes from not scoring a lot. Hey, this same team was lauded for coming back from 3 runs down last Thursday against the Giants. It was another heroic comeback. Now they are lollygaggers?

[REDREAD]

There we go - 6 straight losses. Anyone think we can sweep the Pads? Not bloody likely. Season is over.

[Patrick Bateman]

Now I know you've lost it...

So if the Royals spent a little more time at the batting cages they could be as good as the 1927 Yanks?

[SteelSD]

Now I know you've lost it...

Right. As if you'd have a clue.

[dsmith421]

Steel, I know what you're saying, but the effort, the body language, etc., the last six days has been desultory and defeatist. To my eyes, at least.

[REDREAD]

I'll take issue with Marty's words on that every time considering that everything done since before the ASB was allegedly to change the team's makeup and chemistry.

Marty's full of poo. Winning breeds perception of effort. Losing breeds the opposite. The defining characteristic isn't effort. It's talent.

Yes, Running to their positions tonight wouldn't have changed the outcome.

It's insulting that Marty is claiming the guys aren't trying. They are trying. LA is just a better ball team.

[Aronchis]

The 16 inning heartbreaker was a damaging, damaging blow to this team. They played like it tonight and Harang pitched like it.

[vaticanplum]

The San Francisco losses were worse to me than this. The Dodgers are just a very good team right now and yesterday was a tough, close loss. The day off will help the Reds regroup, and we've got a month left in a still-close race.

This team has been heartbreakingly bad for almost a week. but they've done nothing to show me this year that they will let a week-long bad stretch extend to a month. Quite the opposite, actually.

[Matt700wlw]

Woohoo!!

.500!!!!!!!

:bang: :bang: :bang:

[Patrick Bateman]

There we go - 6 straight losses. Anyone think we can sweep the Pads? Not bloody likely. Season is over.


I've seen crazier things happen. It's not likely, but with the amount of luck involved in the average game of baseball, it's the 1 sport where you see a 6game losing streak turned into a 6 game winning streak.

[WVRedsFan]

:lol: Clayton is utter definition of worthless.

Wasn't he described as "an adequate alternative to Felipe Lopez?"

Or was it that Chris Denorfia was "ready to move into right field and contribute as well as Austin Kearns?"

I forget.

[Wheelhouse]

I'll take issue with Marty's words on that every time considering that everything done since before the ASB was allegedly to change the team's makeup and chemistry.

Marty's full of poo. Winning breeds perception of effort. Losing breeds the opposite. The defining characteristic isn't effort. It's talent.

Wrong. Both are important.

[Reds Nd2]

Then the moves that were positioned to change team "culture" (at best) didn't change team culture. That's not a player issue.

Winning breeds chemistry. Losing breeds cancer in the clubhouse. I suspect it's always been that way.

[WVRedsFan]

Unfortunately, nobody is currently giving any of those away right now, which is why it's neccessary to look under every rock for avaiable pitching.

IOW's--we're doomed to relive this moment over and over for the next 20 years?

I refuse to believe that throwing everyone else's trash at this team will make it win. I refuse to believe that trading talent for trash will get us to the playoffs.

I'm just sick.

[LincolnparkRed]

The west coast trip will say me some $$. I have tickets for 9/16 at wrigley and was looking into getting the whole series to watch the race in person but I think I may just stay home after this. It's too bad that we will have to go out like this, where were we in 99?

[Patrick Bateman]

Wrong. Both are important.


Talent is the difference between 90 and 70 wins. Effort is the difference between 90 and 92 wins.

Obviously effort is important, but it's not what wins the majority of games.

[TheBigLebowski]

That'll do it...it was fun while it lasted.

[Cedric]

Talent is the difference between 90 and 70 wins. Effort is the difference between 90 and 92 wins.

Obviously effort is important, but it's not what wins the majority of games.

Well put. Talent is the deciding factor of how good a team is. Chemistry and effort can make up a few games here or there.

[Reds Nd2]

Now I know you've lost it...

I, too, can give all the effort in the world. I just don't have the talent to play at this level.

[SteelSD]

I agree. When you are winning, you look like you are full of fire and spirit and vigor. When you are losing, you look tired and listless. Especially when you are on a big losing streak. Who is not trying out there? I just saw Jr. haul ass to 1st on a nubber to the left side. I know a lot of people do not like Aurilia but the man comes to play every single day wherever you put him. A lot of that perception comes from not scoring a lot. Hey, this same team was lauded for coming back from 3 runs down last Thursday against the Giants. It was another heroic comeback. Now they are lollygaggers?

Exactly, Chip. There's nothing about the effort level of this team I don't like. It was the same in April, May, and June. This Reds team fought the odds in the first half and came away a game over .500 with a -13 Run Differential. They fought and fought and never gave up. Fast forward to now...this team, since the ASB, has fought and fought to keep up with a -15 Run Differential post ASB Run Diff through tonight.

There isn't a team in the game that can keep up with that and expect "heart" or "effort" to do the job sans the talent to produce much better RD results. Problem is that when the talent fails, "heart" and "effort" become the things folks look at. That's unfortunate, because it's just not how baseball works; particularly when you can't score more Runs than you opponents.

[Patrick Bateman]

IOW's--we're doomed to relive this moment over and over for the next 20 years?

I refuse to believe that throwing everone else's trash at this team will make it win. I refuse to believe that trading talent for trash will get us to the playoffs.

I'm just sick.

I'm not saying that, but if your plan is to go out and get a bunch of really really good picthers, well that's easier said than done.

Krivsky can go out and try his hardest to get some real pitching, but it's very difficult (ie. see the price we gave up for middle relief help). It never hurts to go after low risk projects when there are huge dividends.

[Cedric]

IOW's--we're doomed to relive this moment over and over for the next 20 years?

I refuse to believe that throwing everone else's trash at this team will make it win. I refuse to believe that trading talent for trash will get us to the playoffs.

I'm just sick.

You are being unrealistic.

Did you realize it would have taken a miracle of biblical proportions for Krivsky to get this pitching staff to league average this season?

Wanting and reality are two WAY different things.

[reds44]

The thing about the Kearns and Lopez trade is, it killed this year and the future.

Oh but because they are struggling with the Nationals means the trade wasn't that bad right?

[vaticanplum]

Exactly, Chip. There's nothing about the effort level of this team I don't like. It was the same in April, May, and June. This Reds team fought the odds in the first half and came away a game over .500 with a -13 Run Differential. They fought and fought and never gave up. Fast forward to now...this team, since the ASB, has fought and fought to keep up with a -15 Run Differential post ASB Run Diff through tonight.

There isn't a team in the game that can keep up with that and expect "heart" or "effort" to do the job sans the talent to produce much better RD results. Problem is that when the talent fails, "heart" and "effort" become the things folks look at. That's unfortunate, because it's just not how baseball works; particularly when you can't score more Runs than you opponents.

I agree with what you're saying, Steel, especially that second paragraph. But I think that to truly have this discussion, we would need to define "talent" -- because when I hear that word, I think of sheer natural ability, and I suspect you're talking about more than that (and effort may even be a part of that?) Offensively, I do believe that this team has the talent to score more runs since the All-Star break than it has. This does not follow that I believe that their failure to do so is indicative of a lack of effort.

I guess the bottom line for me is that there are a gazillion factors that go into whether a team will win any given game. Many of those factors are decided in how a team performs in the split seconds of the game; talent and effort are both part of those decisions, yes, but frankly at this level I expect every single player to have talent and put forth effort long before they take the field. They are professionals. They got where they are because they're talented, and they're obligated to put forth effort to stay where they are.

[TheBigLebowski]

Goodnight, Hollywood Boulevard...goodnight...see ya soo-oon. Goodnight, Hollywood Boulevard. Goodnight. See ya sometime.

[Cedric]

The thing about the Kearns and Lopez trade is, it killed this year and the future.

Oh but because they are struggling with the Nationals means the trade wasn't that bad right?

Actually yea, it does matter.

Predicting their future performance compared to their cost is somewhat important in baseball, ya know?

I'm not wanting to relive that trade for the 334343 time here. But Kearns/Lopez play has a huge bearing on deciding if that was right decision or not.

[WVRedsFan]

You are being unrealistic.

Did you realize it would have taken a miracle of biblical proportions for Krivsky to get this pitching staff to league average this season?

Wanting and reality are two WAY different things.

I realize that, but why continue to bring in known failures at the expense of adequate (or better) position players ?

Every day we see more pitchers coming to the Reds and more pitchers who fail in game situations. In the meantime, we don't have an adequate shortstop and a punch and judy right fielder who is the darling of RedsZone and his backup is apparently either an outfielder no one wanted and another who was to be the next superstar who we found out was Clark Kent.

If the great deal isn't there (and I was neither a fan of Lopez or Kearns),don't force it. Krivsky made great moves with Pena for Arroyo and bringing in Ross and Phillips, but that one deal will always stick in my craw. Looking at the way Magic and Bray have pitched as well as the joke that is Clayton, and I have to wonder how desparate Wayne was. It has crippled the team offensively (and do not compare Rich to Felipe or Freel to Austin--when you consider all phases of the game) and done nothing for our relief pitching.

Of course, maybe it's just me. I appear to be in the minority on this. But when you score 13 runs in 6 games (2.1 average) and the opposition gets 35 (6 run average roughly), it just might say the offense is poor or the opposition's pitching is very good and our pitching is really bad. The whole purpose of the trades and acquisitions were to improve the pitching. Well that's been a failure. The day before the trade, the Reds stood at 46-44. Today, we are at 67-66. Our record has been 21-22. It has not been a success. At all.

Accountability must go to someone. Want to draw the names out of a hat?

[Wheelhouse]

Talent is the difference between 90 and 70 wins. Effort is the difference between 90 and 92 wins.

Obviously effort is important, but it's not what wins the majority of games.

Right. The Marlins are two games better than the Braves this year. Go figya.

[Cedric]

I realize that, but why continue to bring in known failures at the expense of adequate (or better) position players ?

Every day we see more pitchers coming to the Reds and more pitchers who fail in game situations. In the meantime, we don't have an adequate shortstop and a punch and judy right fielder who is the darling of RedsZone and his backup is apparently either an outfielder no one wanted and another who was to be the next superstar who we found out was Clark Kent.

If the great deal isn't there (and I was neither a fan of Lopez or Kearns),don't force it. Krivsky made great moves with Pena for Arroyo and bringing in Ross and Phillips, but that one deal will always stick in my craw. Looking at the way Magic and Bray have pitched as well as the joke that is Clayton, and I have to wonder how desparate Wayne was. It has crippled the team offensively (and do not compare Rich to Felipe or Freel to Austin--when you consider all phases of the game) and done nothing for our relief pitching.

Of course, maybe it's just me. I appear to be in the minority on this. But when you score 13 runs in 6 games (2.1 average) and the opposition gets 35 (6 run average roughly), it just might say the offense is poor or the opposition's pitching is very good and our pitching is really bad. The whole purpose of the trades and acquisitions were to improve the pitching. Well that's been a failure. The day before the trade, the Reds stood at 30-24. Today, we are at 67-66. Our record has been 37-42. It has not been a success. At all.

Accountability must go to someone. Want to draw the names out of a hat?

It's easy to expect perfection though in any move. Did you know that Denorfia would fail? How would Krivsky?

Did you know that Freel/Hatteberg/and Dunn would tank at the most important time of the year?

Building a winning baseball team from the scraps of crap DanO gave Wayne was almost impossible. He's not gonna be perfect by any means, but from my view he deserves a standing ovation.

[Patrick Bateman]

Right. The Marlins are two games better than the Braves this year. Go figya.

The Marlins are in the same league of talent as the Braves. The Braves have a 32 run differential over the Fish which is attributable to many factors. Maybe pure luck, maybe effort. Who knows. I've certainly seen nothing to suggest that the Marlins work any harder than the Braves. Knowing how proud the Braves are, I'm guessing effort isn't their prime concern.

[dsmith421]

The Ryan Adams move was clutch there, Dude.

From my standpoint, this was a team that excelled in a small sample size. 18-8 in April.

Since then, they are ten games under .500. That's about where all the reasonable projections put them.

[REDREAD]

I've seen crazier things happen. It's not likely, but with the amount of luck involved in the average game of baseball, it's the 1 sport where you see a 6game losing streak turned into a 6 game winning streak.


Sure, anything is possible, but we've got Lohse, Arroyo and Milton (on short rest).

I disagree that luck had anything to do with this losing streak. It's not like we are hitting line drives right at people, and Franklin serving up the meatball last night wasn't bad luck, it was just lack of talent.

[REDREAD]

The thing about the Kearns and Lopez trade is, it killed this year and the future.

Oh but because they are struggling with the Nationals means the trade wasn't that bad right?


Yep. I liked the Pena trade, but when you subract Pena, Kearns, and Lopez from the offense, the offense is going to feel it. Hat's career year covered for Casey being gone, but that's another possible hole for next year (unless Hat can repeat). Again, I'm not saying Casey is God, but he's one of 4 significant players we lost from last years' offense.

As much as people like to point out that Kearns and Lopez have struggled since the trade, Freel has OPS 604 in August. He did have a great July, but I don't want to put the effort into figuring out his "since the trade" numbers.
Clayton has been OPS at 663 since the trade (which is an improvement from his 621 OPS in Wash)

Not exactly "addition by subtraction".

[REDREAD]

It's easy to expect perfection though in any move. Did you know that Denorfia would fail? How would Krivsky?



I always felt Deno would at best be a 4th OF. Not bragging, but it was kind of silly to expect Deno to step in and replace Kearns. I know he's a cult hero here, but the guy has never had any power. I saw him play one game in the minors.. small sample size.. but was not impressed at all.

IMO, it was extremely wishful thinking by Wayne when he said it was "Deno's time".

[Cedric]

I always felt Deno would at best be a 4th OF. Not bragging, but it was kind of silly to expect Deno to step in and replace Kearns. I know he's a cult hero here, but the guy has never had any power. I saw him play one game in the minors.. small sample size.. but was not impressed at all.

IMO, it was extremely wishful thinking by Wayne when he said it was "Deno's time".

Maybe you are just batting 1.000 this year, sounds like it. Most other humans have to take risks. With the way our bullpen was going I still think Denorfia replacing Kearns was worth the risk.

I sure as hell thought Denorfia deserved a shot, and so did many others.

[Patrick Bateman]

Sure, anything is possible, but we've got Lohse, Arroyo and Milton (on short rest).

I disagree that luck had anything to do with this losing streak. It's not like we are hitting line drives right at people, and Franklin serving up the meatball last night wasn't bad luck, it was just lack of talent.


Milton wont be on short rest since there is an off day tomorrow, so it will just be regular bad Milton, instead of extra bad Milton.

I thought we had particularly bad luck today. The Dodgers made some fluky plays (the ball that was scorched off Maddux and went right to the 3rd baseman) and we hit some balls right on the nose at key times that didn't work out (Hatteberg's DP). Those are just a couple, but we certainly have not had things going our way (the Reds have played very poorly the last 6 games, but as a whole we haven't exactly been blessed with good luck). A reversal of fortunes would do this team wonders.

For some reason, I'm actually optimistic that we will take at least 2 from the Pads. Call me crazy (because I probably am), but this team hasn't gone down quietly all season. Even in the games the Reds lose, they usually make it interesting at the end.

And ya Franklin isn't very good, nuff said there.

[WVRedsFan]

I made some corrections to my post about the Reds record since the trade. it's not as dramatic, but a losing one, nonetheless. Trying to do these things after 3-4 hours sleep last night after that disappointment and being up so late tonight means you make mistakes, so in trying to figure the since the trade statistics, i gave up.

As far as I got, though, Lopez is doing well, much much better than Clayton, as I suspected and Kearns is at least producing more runs than Freel. Cincinnatians love Freel because of his effort and blue collar work ethic (and blue collar drinking habits too I've found), but you don't build a team around him as a leadoff hitter. I've said that before to guffaws, so I'll quit there.

Cedric asked me how I knew Denorfia would tank and that Dunn, Freel and Hat would go into slumps (not to mention Junior). Simple. Looking at the history of these players, Denorfia is 27 and in the minors for a reason, Freel is the world's greatest utility player, Dunn is prone to stretches like this and late in the season he seems to get worse, and Hatteberg was playing way over his head. Couple that with rookie EdE,who can't be expected to carry this team (though he did for awhile), and Wayne gambled and lost. he thought in Magic, Bray, Franklin, Lohse, ED Eddie, Mays, Cormier, and others, he could hold down the other team enough to eck out wins. He forgot our lack of defense and expected Castro to make up for a lot of non-offensive problems. The result? Not good.

Gang, I'm a glass half full guy. I'll still watch and hope on Friday and the rest of the season, but Krivsky gambled and lost. and like Cedric said, it's better to see that than to watch grass grow under Dan O'Brien's feet waiting for the right time. And once again, maybe I'm missing the big picture here. Truth is, this wasn't going to be our year. It just so happened that everyone else was down and it was a golden opportunity. I keep telling myself that it won't be this way again, and we're missing out, but if the right moves are made, not out of desparation (as I feel the Kearns, Lopez and Wagner for the fluff we got trade was), but out of intelligent determination of talent, we'll be Ok.

I said that making the Reds Wayne's (s in my signature) was just like DanO and JimBo. That was an emotional statement borne out of frustration. It is not. It resembles it, but not quite. I'm sure the future will be better.

Mea Culpa.

[REDREAD]

Maybe you are just batting 1.000 this year, sounds like it. Most other humans have to take risks. With the way our bullpen was going I still think Denorfia replacing Kearns was worth the risk.

I sure as hell thought Denorfia deserved a shot, and so did many others.

I had no problem with the thought process of trading Kearns for help in other areas and giving Freel RF. I think it's good that the Reds at least quickly realized that Deno wasn't the answer.

I didn't expect Freel to totally flop in August. It's so bad that I think an OF should be on our offseason shopping list. I doubt it will be, but it should be.

[REDREAD]

Milton wont be on short rest since there is an off day tomorrow, so it will just be regular bad Milton, instead of extra bad Milton.


You're right, I forgot about the off day.

I hope we take at least 2 of 3 from the Pads. I'll probably be listening. I'm just depressed now.