9-5 vs Giants -- Hollandsworth over Deno

[Cedric]

THAT was walking the walk right there.

[George Foster]

Arroyo was just interviewed on the Reds post wrap. He was asked if the attitude in the club house was that every game is do or die? Arroyo said, "well I hope so." He did not say "hell ya" or "absolutley." He said, "well I hope so." telling.

[Matt700wlw]

Arroyo was just interviewed on the Reds post wrap. He was asked if the attitude in the club house was that every game is do or die? Arroyo said, "well I hope so." He did not say "hell ya" or "absolutley." He said, "well I hope so." telling.

He understands it. So does Rich and Hatte.

A lot of these guys don't including Narron to some extent, who hasn't been in this situation in his managerial career.

[BCubb2003]

The game thread over in Reds Live is one page long and contains no ridiculousness. I say we merge them again, give those guys a chance to a more active computer screen rather than just a wall.

I vote for this.

[George Foster]

He understands it. So does Rich and Hatte.

A lot of these guys don't including Narron to some extent, who hasn't been in this situation in his managerial career.

What's there to understand? You play hard, you play smart, you work the count, you sacrifice, you advance the runner, you hit the cut off man, you keep your concentration for 9 innings. Not being in this situation before is not an excuse.

[Big Klu]

The game thread over in Reds Live is one page long and contains no ridiculousness. I say we merge them again, give those guys a chance to a more active computer screen rather than just a wall.

I just sent a PM to Boss asking him to consider this.

[Matt700wlw]

What's there to understand? You play hard, you play smart, you work the count, you sacrifice, you advance the runner, you hit the cut off man, you keep your concentration for 9 innings. Not being in this situation before is not an excuse.

The pressure. It's different.

It shouldn't be...there should be pressure everyday for them to win and do their jobs to the best of their ability, but a playoff chase can make or break some people.

[westofyou]

A lot of these guys don't including Narron to some extent, who hasn't been in this situation in his managerial career.

You mean Jerry Narron who caught Donnie Moore doesn't understand the pressure of a pennant race?

[NDRed]

alot of pitches for arroyo on short rest

[Matt700wlw]

You mean Jerry Narron who caught Donnie Moore doesn't understand the pressure of a pennant race?

I said as a manger....the decision maker....

There has to be a difference between the two.

[George Foster]

a playoff chase can make or break some people.

Then those people have to be traded or let go at the end of this season. No matter their HR count, RBI count, or status in the league. "if you can't stand the heat, draw your check like welfare, and play for the Royals or Pirates."

[Matt700wlw]

Then those people have to be traded or let go at the end of this season. No matter their HR count, RBI count, or status in the league. "if you can't stand the heat, draw your check like welfare, and play for the Royals or Pirates."

Some of it comes with experience.

[NDRed]

florida down 4 to 0

[westofyou]

I said as a manger....the decision maker....

There has to be a difference between the two.

20 years, and a hell of alot of baseball seen would be my guess.



Then those people have to be traded or let go at the end of this season. Baseball ain't football or war, why pretend that it is?

[NDRed]

3 games out right now

[NDRed]

phillies rained out San Diego yet to play lets hope they lose

[Falls City Beer]

20 years, and a hell of alot of baseball seen would be my guess.


Baseball ain't football or war, why pretend that it is?

There are plenty of 20 year vets of the game who could think Jerry Narron back to 1960, where, apparently, he thinks the game still resides.

[VR]

The game thread over in Reds Live is one page long and contains no ridiculousness. I say we merge them again, give those guys a chance to a more active computer screen rather than just a wall.


Are you recommending RZ expand their September roster for the playoff run? ;)

[oneupper]

Tomorrow Kim starts. VERY SHORT LEASH, Jerry. Bullpen FULL of well rested bodies and arms.

[westofyou]

There are plenty of 20 year vets of the game who could think Jerry Narron back to 1960, where, apparently, he thinks the game still resides.
Actually the game back in 1960 was more like it is today then it was when Jerry played, the 80's.

[George Foster]

Baseball ain't football or war, why pretend that it is?

How is it not like football? Guys that could care less if they win or lose should not play football either. Both are professional sports with the goal to win a championship...right?

Guys that can't stand the pressure of war, get other guys killed. Guys that don't bring their "A game" when it counts to baseball, keeps their teammates from winning rings. True baseball is not life or death, but not playing hard is "death" to a potential playoff team.

[vaticanplum]

3 games out right now

I will say this about September -- things always seem to change so fast. It could just be that we're playing such close attention, but the pressure does crazy things to people and things never seem the same at the end of the month than they are at the beginning. I've been overcome with inexplicable optimism lately, and I know that basically 100% of everything is against us, but you never know.

I await death threats for saying this, and I hope it is not perceived as a knock on my Reds fandom because it isn't, but for me September always belongs to the Yankees. No matter what they have done until then, it is almost guaranteed that come September, they become a true team and play some of the greatest baseball you'll see all year. It's incredibly difficult to do, given the pressure, and they do it time and time again. It is really one of the things I respect most of them, their ability to peak late -- late in games, late in the season. Especially the last few years.

[westofyou]

How is it not like football? In more ways then there are stars in the sky, don't kid yourself, wound up, uptight baseball players are the complete opposite of what you want.

[Falls City Beer]

Actually the game back in 1960 was more like it is today then it was when Jerry played, the 80's.

You mean they left guys in the game way past their breaking point more in the 80s than the 60s? Here I thought the modern bullpen came into its own after Sparky.

Jerry acts like there's no tomorrow and bullpens only hold living, snorting steer.

[vaticanplum]

Are you recommending RZ expand their September roster for the playoff run? ;)

You said playoff ;)

[oneupper]

I will say this about September -- things always seem to change so fast. It could just be that we're playing such close attention, but the pressure does crazy things to people and things never seem the same at the end of the month than they are at the beginning. I've been overcome with inexplicable optimism lately, and I know that basically 100% of everything is against us, but you never know.

I await death threats for saying this, and I hope it is not perceived as a knock on my Reds fandom because it isn't, but for me September always belongs to the Yankees. No matter what they have done until then, it is almost guaranteed that come September, they become a true team and play some of the greatest baseball you'll see all year. It's incredibly difficult to do, given the pressure, and they do it time and time again. It is really one of the things I respect most of them, their ability to peak late -- late in games, late in the season. Especially the last few years.

It's easy to be a REDS fan when you have the Yankees to fall back on.
:p:

[oneupper]

You mean they left guys in the game way past their breaking point more in the 80s than the 60s? Here I thought the modern bullpen came into its own after Sparky.

Jerry acts like there's no tomorrow and bullpens only hold living, snorting steer.

In the 70s the closer came in in the 7th inning. And he wasn't called a closer.

[VR]

I await death threats for saying this, and I hope it is not perceived as a knock on my Reds fandom because it isn't, but for me September always belongs to the Yankees. No matter what they have done until then, it is almost guaranteed that come September, they become a true team and play some of the greatest baseball you'll see all year. It's incredibly difficult to do, given the pressure, and they do it time and time again. It is really one of the things I respect most of them, their ability to peak late -- late in games, late in the season. Especially the last few years.

I disagree that it's difficult for them to do.....their roster has enough superstars for 10 teams, and by merely playing average baseball they are heads and shoulders above the competition. I'd be questioning how all that talent has nothing to show for it in the last 5 years.
Having a video game roster mentality where you have no talent limit isn't fun baseball to me.

[NDRed]

florida lost 4 to 0 yeah!!!!!

[Falls City Beer]

I disagree that it's difficult for them to do.....their roster has enough superstars for 10 teams, and by merely playing average baseball they are heads and shoulders above the competition. I'd be questioning how all that talent has nothing to show for it in the last 5 years.
Having a video game roster mentality where you have no talent limit isn't fun baseball to me.

I agree. In order to win, all the Yankees have to do is avoid locker room brawls, sleeping with one another's wives, and too much curly hair on the universal soap.

Everything else is on autopilot.

[vaticanplum]

I disagree that it's difficult for them to do.....their roster has enough superstars for 10 teams, and by merely playing average baseball they are heads and shoulders above the competition. I'd be questioning how all that talent has nothing to show for it in the last 5 years.
Having a video game roster mentality where you have no talent limit isn't fun baseball to me.

If it was all about talent, they'd win the World Series every year. Look at the way they were playing through April and May last year -- horrendous baseball. I'm not saying the Yankees don't have an advantage in the talent pool, but there is a consistent, almost annual difference in the way they play baseball in May and June than in August and September, with the same core of talent. They step up in September. Problematically, they haven't been able to carry that all the way through the postseason recently. But the September race is usually theirs. Anyone who refuses to watch them this time of year out of hate is missing out in my opinion. The past few years at this time they have played some of the most beautiful baseball I have seen in my lifetime.

[VR]

Nice to see Hollandsworth with a solid start. 3 big hits and 1 to the track.

He's now 9-19 after his putrid 0-12 start....and looking much better at the dish.

Here's my lineup tomorrow..giving Freel a break.....but I wouldn't mind giving Dunn a break either.

Deno
Dunn
RichieRich
Ross
EE
Holly
BP
Castro

[westofyou]

You mean they left guys in the game way past their breaking point more in the 80s than the 60s? Jerry Narron was a catcher, catchers have very special relationships with pitchers, they tend to lean on ones they think are horses, mostly with the intent to build them up. That's Narron's biggest fault, but I doubt he will end up with as many battered pitchers as you think he will.

Old outfielders tend to wear out pitchers more then former catchers or IF's, blame the distance from the mound in their game history.

[Falls City Beer]

Jerry Narron was a catcher, catchers have very special relationships with pitchers, they tend to lean on ones they think are horses, mostly with the intent to build them up. That's Narron's biggest fault, but I doubt he will end up with as many battered pitchers as you think he will.

Old outfielders tend to wear out pitchers more then former catchers or IF's, blame the distance from the mound in their game history.

Harang and Arroyo never went on the DL, but you can bet your bum their one-month vacation from effectiveness was part and parcel of early season abuse.

[oneupper]

Nice to see Hollandsworth with a solid start. 3 big hits and 1 to the track.

He's now 9-19 after his putrid 0-12 start....and looking much better at the dish.

Here's my lineup tomorrow..giving Freel a break.....but I wouldn't mind giving Dunn a break either.

Deno
Dunn
RichieRich
Ross
EE
Holly
BP
Castro

Do we know who's pitching tomorrow for the Giants? GG and CW were saying that Lowry is doubtful.

[backbencher]

Harang and Arroyo never went on the DL, but you can bet your bum their one-month vacation from effectiveness was part and parcel of early season abuse.

Of course, you also can blame the Reds' four-month foray into contention on the early season abuse of starters, rather than use (of any kind) of the bullpen.

[OldXOhio]

Nice to see Hollandsworth with a solid start. 3 big hits and 1 to the track.

He's now 9-19 after his putrid 0-12 start....and looking much better at the dish.



Hats off to Jerry for having him in the lineup tonight.

[dsmith421]

Anyone who refuses to watch them this time of year out of hate is missing out in my opinion. The past few years at this time they have played some of the most beautiful baseball I have seen in my lifetime.

They'd better, given the absolutely preposterous advantages they enjoy.

[westofyou]

Harang and Arroyo never went on the DL, but you can bet your bum their one-month vacation from effectiveness was part and parcel of early season abuse.

You mean the early season when only Todd Coffey and Belise had ERA's below 4.8 out there in the BP?

[WMR]

If it was all about talent, they'd win the World Series every year. Look at the way they were playing through April and May last year -- horrendous baseball. I'm not saying the Yankees don't have an advantage in the talent pool, but there is a consistent, almost annual difference in the way they play baseball in May and June than in August and September, with the same core of talent. They step up in September. Problematically, they haven't been able to carry that all the way through the postseason recently. But the September race is usually theirs. Anyone who refuses to watch them this time of year out of hate is missing out in my opinion. The past few years at this time they have played some of the most beautiful baseball I have seen in my lifetime.

Amazing what 200+ million will buy you these days.

[Falls City Beer]

You mean the early season when only Todd Coffey and Belise had ERA's below 4.8 out there in the BP?

Jerry's still guilty of Harang- and Arroyo-abuse, even at this late juncture in the season.

And even if Jerr's bullpen options aren't optimal, why destroy two pieces that'll be helping for years to come?

[redsmetz]

Okay, just quickly. My daughter and I were at the game. As we walked around the outfield, I stopped to watch Morris warm up. He threw two pitches and then I left. I sat down in the seats and told my daughter, "he's not on tonight." True Story!

[westofyou]

And even if Jerr's bullpen options aren't optimal, why destroy two pieces that'll be helping for years to come? So fans don't demand that the Manager and GM get fired when they fail to exceed the fans expectations?

[VR]

Do we know who's pitching tomorrow for the Giants? GG and CW were saying that Lowry is doubtful.

From ESPN's game notes


The Giants changed their pitching plans for the final game of the series, skipping left-hander Noah Lowry because of a tender arm. Left-hander Jonathan Sanchez will start instead. ... Right-hander Sun-Woo Kim, obtained by the Reds on Tuesday from Colorado, will start the final game of the series on

1.37 earnie, 12 walks and 14 hits in only 19 innings.

[Falls City Beer]

So fans don't demand that the Manager and GM get fired when they fail to exceed the fans expectations?

I'd still be calling for Krivsky's head, but I'd leave Jerry alone, just as I'd virtually always left the field manager alone in my criticisms until this season. That's one thing you can't pigeonhole me on: up until this season, I've pretty much avoided field manager bashing. But Jerry's a wonder.

[VR]

Colorado ties up SD....2-2 heading to the 4th.

[vaticanplum]

Amazing what 200+ million will buy you these days.

If nothing else, I appreciate the brevity and consistency of the argument, which I have heard 100% of the time I have ever brought up the Yankees in my entire life.

Money doesn't buy championships. Clearly.

[VR]

If nothing else, I appreciate the brevity and consistency of the argument, which I have heard 100% of the time I have ever brought up the Yankees in my entire life.

Money doesn't buy championships. Clearly.

No, but it does give you a crazy competetive advantage. Failing to win for 5 straight years is nothing short of miraculous.

[WMR]

If nothing else, I appreciate the brevity and consistency of the argument, which I have heard 100% of the time I have ever brought up the Yankees in my entire life.

Money doesn't buy championships. Clearly.

Brevity is the soul of wit.

C'mon, I wouldn't be a true Reds fan if I didn't give any Yankees fan I came into contact with at least a little bit of grief! ;)

[westofyou]

Money doesn't buy championships. Clearly.

No but being plop in the middle of the largest metro area in the US helps, as does the fact that TV was pretty much an east coast thing for the first decade, The Yankees would have more championships if they weren't being steered by old racists in the 50's. Add in the Giants 10 Championships from 1904-1924 with the Yankees 29 from 1921-1964 and you'll see exactly what the dollar can buy, it's no mistake that the Yankees return from slumber occured the year free agency showed up.

[WMR]

it's no mistake that the Yankees return from slumber occured the year free agency showed up.

WOY, the historian that you are, it's so cool that you brought that up. The Reserve Clause and Free Agency is exactly what we were studying in my Sports Law class tonight.

[RedsMan3203]

Hollandsworth 3/4 with an RBI. not to bad... ;)

[vaticanplum]

Look, I'm sorry I brought it up. i didn't mean for this to become a debate of the Yankees and their spending habits, for which I believe I've made it clear I have great disdain. I just made a point that they're consistently better later in the season than they are at the beginning. That's all. That, to me, has nothing to do with money or the way the team is run on the business side; in fact it's one of the few purely on-the-field points one can make about a team. A-Rod's salary isn't backloaded on the season.

I understand the ribbing, I expect it, I agree with a lot of it, and I don't mind defending the team. But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words. They're all the things we're supposed to hate: rich, successful, capitalistic, anti-underdogs. Fine. I hate those things a lot of the time too. But the money argument doesn't suffice as a counterpoint to every single positive point about the Yankees. It doesn't have anything to do with the original point that I brought up: that they play truly great baseball in September year after year, and I think that's something to be admired.

[WMR]

Look, I'm sorry I brought it up. i didn't mean for this to become a debate of the Yankees and their spending habits, for which I believe I've made it clear I have great disdain. I just made a point that they're consistently better later in the season than they are at the beginning. That's all. That, to me, has nothing to do with money or the way the team is run on the business side; in fact it's one of the few purely on-the-field points one can make about a team. A-Rod's salary isn't backloaded on the season.

I understand the ribbing, I expect it, I agree with a lot of it, and I don't mind defending the team. But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words. They're all the things we're supposed to hate: rich, successful, capitalistic, anti-underdogs. Fine. I hate those things a lot of the time too. But the money argument doesn't suffice as a counterpoint to every single positive point about the Yankees. It doesn't have anything to do with the original point that I brought up: that they play truly great baseball in September year after year, and I think that's something to be admired.


http://www.yanks-suck.com/images/jeterbend.jpg




(sorry I got that in an email the other day and couldn't resist sharing it)

[vaticanplum]

http://www.yanks-suck.com/images/jeterbend.jpg




(sorry I got that in an email the other day and couldn't resist sharing it)

Ah yes...that is the other argument I usually get besides the money thing ;)

[WMR]

Ah yes...that is the other argument I usually get besides the money thing ;)

Yankees fans aren't supposed to be pleasant and affable!! :D

[dougdirt]

Not only does Deno not start in favor of Hollandsworth, Narron slaps humility all over Phillips and Ross by batting Hollandsworth in front of them.

Man, I make myself look like a fool often. Although I bet Phillips wishes someone else were rounding third rather than Hollandsworth. I however am not, in hindsight. That was absolutely freaking hilarious, and since it didnt cost us anything, I loved it.

[GAC]

Hollandsworth 3/4 with an RBI. not to bad... ;)

Yeah - I loved reading over the first page of this thread and some bemoaning his starting. It must be purposely planned that way to bring him luck. Both he and Nature Boy go 3 fer 4 and provide us with the runs for victory.

And what about RA's diving catch? ;)

[redsmetz]

Well, I didn't get the chance to write last night, but as an eyewitness to the gem last night, I thought I'd give some thoughts.

The offense came right out last night and made the most of the opportunity handed to them by the ineffective Matt Morris (which, as I recall, we didn't do out in Frisco - is that right??). He clearly wasn't sharp out of the gate, although he settled down.

Even after the first, we were hitting the ball well overall. Hollandsworth's one out was that deep fly ball that had a tiny bit of room to fall into Alou's glove. If he hadn't gotten under it, he might have killed someone on RF deck. I think it went as far up as it did out. But SF made some nice plays in the infield to gobble up some sharply hit balls.

The defense was superb. Aurilia acquited himself well, although I'm not recommending that he be our solution for the next couple of years, but he took charge out there tonight, but everybody fielded their positions very well. Even Hollandsworth's diving stab at the dying quail in RF was some good effort.

I thought Jerry Narron pulled all the right ropes last night. The line-up was effective, fielded well and got the runs we needed to win. His defensive substitutions worked extremely well last night too.

Arroyo! What can I saw. I was on. He was not overpowering, he was not tricky. He appeared to be effortless though and pitched masterfully. The scouting reports on Bonds must have been good because he must never seemed t swing at the first pitch and tonights first pitch to Bonds was a 67 MPH "I don't know what" (some side arm jobbie). He got strikeouts when he needed them on pitchs that had the Giants tied in knots. While I didn't watch the Radar Gun the whole night, I think 90 mph was the highest I saw. The aforementioned 67 mph was the slowest. That was a very smart performance.

All in all, this was the Reds at their best tonight.

[Falls City Beer]

Look, I'm sorry I brought it up. i didn't mean for this to become a debate of the Yankees and their spending habits, for which I believe I've made it clear I have great disdain. I just made a point that they're consistently better later in the season than they are at the beginning. That's all. That, to me, has nothing to do with money or the way the team is run on the business side; in fact it's one of the few purely on-the-field points one can make about a team. A-Rod's salary isn't backloaded on the season.

I understand the ribbing, I expect it, I agree with a lot of it, and I don't mind defending the team. But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words. They're all the things we're supposed to hate: rich, successful, capitalistic, anti-underdogs. Fine. I hate those things a lot of the time too. But the money argument doesn't suffice as a counterpoint to every single positive point about the Yankees. It doesn't have anything to do with the original point that I brought up: that they play truly great baseball in September year after year, and I think that's something to be admired.


Never apologize for your fandom.

[VR]

But it's just so easy to hate the Yankees in about three words.

I can hate the Yankees in two words.


And don't be sorry, it's a good discussion. You just happen to be wrong ;)

[registerthis]

and too much curly hair on the universal soap.

:laugh:

[vaticanplum]

And don't be sorry, it's a good discussion. You just happen to be wrong ;)

So you're right about what? That the Yankees spend the most money? Of course you are. That spending the most money allows you to attract better players and build a better team? Again, pretty common knowledge and common sense. That having the best, highest-paid team means you're immune to mistakes and are bound to win the World Series every year? Here I disagree. And let's put aside for a moment that this still has nothing to do with my original, non-monetary point that the Yankees get better throughout the course of the season.

The disparity in MLB teams' payrolls has increased dramatically over the last twenty years, and much more so over even the last ten. From 1985-1990, the win differential between the top 25% of teams in terms of payroll to the bottom 25% was just 5.5 games. Of course this is directly related to the fact that the Reds, a relatively low-paid team at the time, were able to win the World Series in 1990 (in my opinion, the last truly small-market team to do so). From 1991-1997, as salaries increased, that differential went up to 10.9. And from 1998-2002, it ballooned up to an ungodly 14.7 games. That's really kind of awful for the short time frame it represents in baseball history.

So where do the Yankees fit into this? Well, of course, only the first of the WS wins of their recent "dynasty" fall in that second bracket, and there's no question that team were good partly because of the money they were paid (although they were also partly good because of the fruits of their unusually strong farm system at the time). However, the Yankees' payroll was $61.51 million in 1996; while still the highest in the majors that year, still nothing like the difference that exists now between them and other teams. by 1998 their payroll stood at a little over $68 million, with the Orioles (a losing team) and the Indians and Braves right behind them. 1999 was when both salaries and the differential between winning teams really started to jump: the Yankees had a $91.9 million payroll in 1999 and $113.4 million in 2000, at a time when teams like the Marlins and the Twins were still hovering around the $15 million mark. The money was helping the team win. Then again, the fact that a core of very talented players that had been together since the minors and been with the team since the first win in 1996 was still intact was helping them too.

I do not have data for how the run differential of 14.9 has changed since 2002, but I can only assume that it's remained constant or at least not gone up, given the lack of small-market teams in the postseason and the fact that salaries continue to rise pretty dramatically. And how many World Series have the Yankees won since 2000, a six-year period in which their payroll has shot up to its present near-$200 million at a time when only five teams break the $100 million mark? Of course we know that the answer to this is 0. In the same way that many of Jerry Narron's poor managerial decisions lead to accidental wins, this isn't causual, people will say. Or is it? could it be possible that what I have been saying since at least Jason Giambi is true: that spending money won't buy you championships? That it will buy you more talent, and more egos and constant adjustments, but it can't buy you a team that will work together on the field? There's no question that this kind of payroll guarantees at least a playoff advantage. Beyond that, you don't need just great offensive numbers or great pitching. You really need a team. The Yankees have spend the last 6+ years trying to buy the former while completely neglecting the latter. (They moved the world's best shortstop to a different position, for crying out loud. If that isn't neglecting the makeup of a team in favor of numbers, I don't know what is. They're lucky that the man that they got there is gifted enough that he's made that adjustment as well as he has.) Which, once again, makes it even more impressive to me that they continually gel throughout the season the way they do, and also makes it less surprising to me that they can't hold it together during the playoffs.

These are the arguments I hear all the time: for the amount of money they're paying their players, of course they should win. It's true in a way, but it's also usually a fallacy in the context of any given argument. You are hearing it from a Yankees fan: listen to what your mother told you your whole life. Money isn't everything.

and now, to get the taste of all those numbers out of my mouth, I think I will head off and treat myself to a nice Giants-Reds game.