9/6/06 - Reds vs. Giants Game Thread

[Tony Cloninger]

He was not taking him out......Dunn needs his rest in between pitching changes.

I thought the RA AB was good......Strike 1 and 2 where barely that.

Another ump who has to call any close pitch on 2-0 or 3-0 a strike.

Ross, i thought, had that one. Better pitch location and a little lower than RF pitch....but he almost hit out and it barely looked like he was trying to swing.

[redsfan30]

With all the fresh arms in the bullpen, why is Ryan Franklin still in this game?

[Matt700wlw]

Not that it has anything to do with anything, but the Giants TV guys spent a lot of the game on Monday checking out the pretty girls from the both with binoculars.

Better than checking out the guys....

[VR]

not sure if this was posted..


This morning's saline-enhanced MRI revealed that Eddie Guardado has a torn ulnar collateral ligament -- the injury that requires Tommy John surgery for a return. Guardado is done for a while after this one, but we haven't had a chance to talk with him yet to see what his plans are.

Guardado was moved to the 60-day DL to make room for Jason Johnson on the 40-man

[Joseph]

With all the fresh arms in the bullpen, why is Ryan Franklin still in this game?

Why is he still on the roster is the better question.

[redsfan30]

Better than checking out the guys....

Word for word, what I was getting ready to say.

:laugh:

[guttle11]

Has Majewski pitched since coming off the DL yet?

[Reds Fanatic]

Ellison doubles to right center.

[Tony Cloninger]

My advice to you EG is to start drinking heavily.

That is too bad.....i liked his pitching efforts for this team. He did not pitch worse when he came over.....as opposed to most of the other relievers who have.

[redsfan30]

Has Majewski pitched since coming off the DL yet?

Yep. He took the loss Sunday in San Diego.

[Reds Fanatic]

Has Majewski pitched since coming off the DL yet?
Yes he pitched in SD last weekend.

[Matt700wlw]

Has Majewski pitched since coming off the DL yet?

If that's what you want to call it...

[flyer85]

Comeon Jerry, let him give up some more. He's a scrappy vet.

[Matt700wlw]

Cormier coming in to face the lefty.

Shack must be on a date...

[flyer85]

Has Majewski pitched since coming off the DL yet?you missed the SD meltdown in a tie game on Sunday. Jerry often has exquisite timing.

[Reds Fanatic]

Finally Franklin is out of the game.

[CrackerJack]

Franklin, Johnson, Michalak, Woo, oh my!

What a bevy of talented and entertaining arms we've acquired here in our little town. What a treat for all!

[flyer85]

Cormier coming in to face the lefty.

Shack must be on a date...or maybe the leg fell off of SS. I don't get the narron man-love for Cormier. He has been nothing but awful since becoming a Red. Shoeneweis has better stuff and has been more effctive but he was nowhere to be found on Sunday ... or now.

[Kc61]

No knock on Ross, whose been good, but Valentin never catches anymore. Valentin is a pretty good hitter and a lefty. In a day after night situation like this, shouldn't Valentin have started one game (probably yesterday against the righty)?

I think Ross is hurt by playing too much and the team is hurt by sitting Javy so much.

[redsfan30]

Cormier coming in to face the lefty.

Shack must be on a date...

:laugh:

Rheal gets out of it on one pitch though.

[Reds Fanatic]

Finley fouls out to the catcher on the first pitch. 3-1 Giants mid 7th.

[guttle11]

The last three times I've turned off the game and gone to just radio the Reds have come back to win.

I just turned the TV off.

You can thank me later.

[REDREAD]

The numbers of Majewski would make any trade look bad. But my point was that the numbers of the guys the Nats got don't really impress either.

Kearns and Lopez have name recognition to us. Most people in New England (where I live) would not be able to tell you who either of them are.

Ok, but the point is that we got guys with NEGATIVE value .. All three of the Washington guys have hurt a lot more than they've helped.

Kearns and Lopez aren't having HOF seasons, but they are helping the team win at times.

Also, Lopez's RBI total is a poor way to judge him. He's a top of the order hitter. Freel only has 3 RBI in August, but don't judge him on that, judge him on his .601 OPS for August.

It doesn't matter to me if some people in New England have never heard of Kearns and Lopez. I bet even fewer had heard of Bray and Maj before the trade. The point is that we gave away assets for players that have probably performed below replacement level this season (or at the very least, way below average).

[flyer85]

CHris Booker in pitching for Reds East

[CTA513]

No knock on Ross, whose been good, but Valentin never catches anymore. Valentin is a pretty good hitter and a lefty. In a day after night situation like this, shouldn't Valentin have started one game (probably yesterday against the righty)?

I think Ross is hurt by playing too much and the team is hurt by sitting Javy so much.

Arroyo pitched yesterday and Ross almost always catches Arroyo.

[redsfan30]

What is that, five fly ball outs to the warning track today?

When it rains, it pours....

[Matt700wlw]

:laugh:

Rheal gets out of it on one pitch though.

Yes he did.

[CTA513]

CHris Booker in pitching for Reds East

Washington has a 1 run lead in the 6th.
Booker gives up a single to the first batter and walks the second batter.
Now Pujols is up with 2 runners on and 0 outs.

:eek:

[Cedric]

I'm willing to go out on a limb and bet my incredible gi joe collection that the Reds don't score again today.

Maybe even bet they don't get another base runner.

[flyer85]

The Reds seem likely to go down without a whimper

[Matt700wlw]

No knock on Ross, whose been good, but Valentin never catches anymore. Valentin is a pretty good hitter and a lefty. In a day after night situation like this, shouldn't Valentin have started one game (probably yesterday against the righty)?

I think Ross is hurt by playing too much and the team is hurt by sitting Javy so much.


I'm surprised they didn't pick up a Korean catcher to catch Sun Woo...

[REDREAD]

When is Griffey going to quit so Denorfia can play everyday?

I hope that Deno never plays every day. He's not good enough. When Jr retires, the Reds are going to have to get someone better than Deno.

[redsfan30]

Hollandsworth with a prototypical Reds at bat....strike looking, swing at ball in dirt, strikeout swinging.

Faaaaaaannntastic.

[Matt700wlw]

Holly Ks...he seems to do better when he starts.

[OldXOhio]

Olmedo, Hopper, Denorfia....yeah, this is looking a lot like Septembers of the past.

[flyer85]

Olmedo, Hopper, Denorfia....yeah, this is looking a lot like Septembers of the past.He's saving Hatty and Valentin for extra innings. The pitcher spot is unlikely to come up again.

[CTA513]

Corriea with a 7 pitch inning.
Hes now pitched 1 1/3 innings on 9 pitches.

[redsfan30]

This is as painful (for me anyway) as it's been all year long to watch the game.

Describing the offense as putrid would be giving it too much credit.

[oneupper]

He's saving Hatty and Valentin for extra innings. The pitcher spot is unlikely to come up again.

Maybe (god forbid) he may hit for Clayton!

[flyer85]

Think Wayne sits around saying "What have I done"? and will the management find out?

[BRM]

Apathy has started to set in out in Redsland.

[Matt700wlw]

The Reds doing there best to make Arroyo's masterpiece last night mean very little.

Time's running out Reds...and I'm not talking about for just today's game.

[REDREAD]

At $1.7 million next year, I think Freel is going to be around. He is a good ballplayer, but his hitting does tend to go downhill over the course of a season.


And to think, some people thought Kearns was "too expensive" at 1.8 million this year. Given that the average arb raise is about 900k, it hurts that Freel is going to be our starting RF next year unless Wayne can dig up something better.

Point being, that Kearns would not have cost that much more than Freel next year.

[Tony Cloninger]

You can play the Jerry should have brought in this guy or that guy....or where is Scott....Brian or Waldo game .....every game...but this bullpen can melt down at any time. JN clearly does not help himself sometimes...but every bullpen change is constantly dissected when there is clearly no dead on pitcher JN can bring....before the 8th-9th innings, not named Weathers and SS.

You cannot bring in those guys to pitch 2-3 innings during all the close games.
But if you look at the numbers those 2 are the only ones you can count on.

It would be nice to ahve Ted Abernathy go 2-3 here....or Clay Carroll go another 2-3 the next day. But those days of having a bullpen with about 2-3 dependable guys who can go that long are over.

NOW...if the game is tied or close...and he does not bring in Weathers and SS then go ahead and blast away.

[flyer85]

won't use Stormy in a tie game on SUnday(instead he used D'Artagnan) but uses him with a 2 run deficit today.

Narron must make up new bullpen usage rules on a daily basis. There is no rhyme or reason to who he puts in the game.

[redsfan30]

Apathy has started to set in out in Redsland.

I try not to get too down on things, but today has really bugged me for some reason.

Probably because last night's win gave me a fall sense of hope and watching the offense perform today has brough me crashing back down to earth.

[dabvu2498]

Apathy has started to set in out in Redsland.

I disagree... but I think it would be inappropriate to "sing" the Bengals fight song on a Reds game thread. :)

[MaineRed]

Think Wayne sits around saying "What have I done"? and will the management find out?

What has he done?

If your implying that he the Reds would be in better shape had they stood pat, no, I don't think he thinks that at all.

[SteelSD]

I swear that I've never seen so many screaming liners smoked at fielders in a single game before. It's just shot after shot after shot.

[Matt700wlw]

I disagree... but I think it would be inappropriate to "sing" the Bengals fight song on a Reds game thread. :)

"Welcome to the Jungle" is better :)

[Tony Cloninger]

Maybe Weathers was not able to go that day?

I agree there is no rythem.....but like i posted earlier....it cannot be Weathers and SS every game.

[OldXOhio]

Time's running out Reds...and I'm not talking about for just today's game.

I'm afraid it already has. It'd be one thing if the team were losing some games while playing inspired ball. They just seem out of gas.

[flyer85]

What has he done? since the beginning of July there Reds have experienced a decent size net loss of talent, you cannot argue or explain it away.

[mbgrayson]

Way too much first and second pitch swinging. Patience is a virtue!

[flyer85]

Maybe Weathers was not able to go that day?Right ... Weathers had not pitched in 4 days.

[Tony Cloninger]

In 2004.....they died in July.

Thsi year it was late Aug.

Maybe next year or 2 years from now it will be on the last day of the year......so we can forget about 1999 and start a new chapter on what could have been in 2007-08.

You know this dying on the vine thing....will only inspire more veterans who know how to win for next year......don't you? :D

[MaineRed]

won't use Stormy in a tie game on SUnday(instead he used D'Artagnan) but uses him with a 2 run deficit today.


Give up a run in a tie game and your down 1. Give up a run today and your down 3.

I'm not surprised he went to Weathers.

[flyer85]

Way too much first and second pitch swinging. Patience is a virtue!not to this front office. Scrappy guys that put the ball in play are the way to go.

[REDREAD]

This morning's saline-enhanced MRI revealed that Eddie Guardado has a torn ulnar collateral ligament -- the injury that requires Tommy John surgery for a return. Guardado is done for a while after this one, but we haven't had a chance to talk with him yet to see what his plans are.

Guardado was moved to the 60-day DL to make room for Jason Johnson on the 40-man ..

And just about a week ago, Doc Hollywood said he was fine and cleared him to start long tossing as part of a plan to get back on the mound.. He's done it again. I guess Eddie complained enough for Doc to actually try to figure out what was wrong, or Doc figured it was ok to tell the truth since he's getting some business out of it.

[redsfan30]

Freel singles with the bases empty.

Better late than never, I guess.

[flyer85]

Give up a run in a tie game and your down 1. Give up a run today and your down 3.

I'm not surprised he went to Weathers.so what is your point?

[Tony Cloninger]

Perdoname Ricardo.....no tenia esa informaccion.

Than it does not make sense.......

[MaineRed]

One pitch away from tying this sucker up.

[NJReds]

In NY: Dave Williams has gone 6 innings, 5 hits, 1 ER, 0 BB, 4 K as the Mets lead Atlanta, 3-1.

[oneupper]

Hat for Clayton, Jerry. How hard is that?

[flyer85]

did jerry come through with the PH for Clayton?

[registerthis]

In NY: Dave Williams has gone 6 innings, 5 hits, 1 ER, 0 BB, 4 K as the Mets lead Atlanta, 3-1.

Good for him.

He'll implode again, I don't want it to be for the Reds. Let the Mets take the brunt of it.

[CTA513]

In NY: Dave Williams has gone 6 innings, 5 hits, 1 ER, 0 BB, 4 K as the Mets lead Atlanta, 3-1.

I guess you can pitch better when you dont have a hurt shoulder.

:devil:

[Matt700wlw]

In NY: Dave Williams has gone 6 innings, 5 hits, 1 ER, 0 BB, 4 K as the Mets lead Atlanta, 3-1.

Perhaps outright releasing him wasn't the best idea....

[flyer85]

Hat for Clayton, Jerry. How hard is that?Depends on if you IQ gets out of double digits

[Matt700wlw]

Jason Johnson warming in the bullpen...

[redsfan30]

Royce...take one for the team.

[OldXOhio]

did jerry come through with the PH for Clayton?

you can't PH for your two hole hitter here. He wouldn't be in that spot unless he was proficient with the bat.

[oneupper]

did jerry come through with the PH for Clayton?

What do you think?

[SteelSD]

did jerry come through with the PH for Clayton?

No. He's now arguing that he got hit in the arm by the last pitch.

[flyer85]

Perhaps outright releasing him wasn't the best idea....and certainly not when you give away a potential replacement for Frenchie

[Red Leader]

did jerry come through with the PH for Clayton?

Go ahead and guess. No rep points will be awarded for the correct answer. it's just too predictable.

[REDREAD]

Think Wayne sits around saying "What have I done"? and will the management find out?


:lol: He's hoping he wakes up and it's all a dream. :laugh:

[oneupper]

And that's why we carry four shortstops.

[flyer85]

Go ahead and guess. No rep points will be awarded for the correct answer. it's just too predictable.someone pointed out he was saving Hatty/Javy just for that since he didn't use them in the 7th. Right.

[MaineRed]

so what is your point?

What was yours?

Weathers can't come in during the 8th inning of a huge game because we trail by two because he didn't pitch the other day in a tie game?

Good logic.

[flyer85]

No. He's now arguing that he got hit in the arm by the last pitch.should've stuck his head in the way.

[NJReds]

Jason Johnson warming in the bullpen...

Where's the "white flag" smiley?

This one will do: :bang:

or this one: :barf:

or maybe this one: :runawaycr

[flyer85]

What was yours?

Leverage ... if you understand the concept you will get the point.

[flyer85]

Jerry really deserves a GIDP here

[Reds Fanatic]

And that's why we carry four shortstops.
4 shortstops, 3 catchers and endless mediocre relief pitchers. It's a dream roster.

[Matt700wlw]

Wow...Clayton.

Hmmm...

[redsfan30]

Clayton comes through!!!

Basehit now ties it!

Come on, Rich!!!!!!

[BRM]

Clayton with the RBI double!!!

:clap:

[MaineRed]

Jerry really deserves a GIDP here

What was that?

[guttle11]

Rich is going yard...

[SteelSD]

Jerry really deserves a GIDP here

Instead, he gets an ace when hitting on a 20.

[OldXOhio]

Has Durham's home run come down yet?

[flyer85]

Wow...Clayton.

Hmmm...Ignorance is bliss. His heart paid off that time.

[Matt700wlw]

If the Reds get the lead and Jason Johnson comes in, I will organize a protest at GABP

:)

[NJReds]

Clayton with the RBI double!!!

:clap:


Jerry Narron: Super Genius.

[REDREAD]

Give up a run in a tie game and your down 1. Give up a run today and your down 3.

I'm not surprised he went to Weathers.

I disagree. You use Weathers in a tie game because you want your best relievers pitching in games that you have the best chance to win. Leverage the good relievers in the important innings.

By your logic, Franklin should never pitch in a game when we're behind, because he'll increase the deficit, but Franklin should pitch in games where we have the lead because we can "afford" to give up runs. That makes no sense.

[dabvu2498]

Wow...Clayton.

Hmmm...

Yes... keep blasting... it worked last night with Hollandsworth... keep blasting!!!

[flyer85]

Instead, he gets an ace when hitting on a 20.and thus it becomes a smart play in hindsight

[Matt700wlw]

Marty votes for a bunt....

[flyer85]

RA is really the right guy to hit in this situation. Nail one to right Nature Boy

[redsfan30]

Come on Rich, put the ball in play.....

[Highlifeman21]

I still hate Royce Clayton

[Kc61]

Dunn is going to come through this time.

[flyer85]

Marty votes for a bunt....AAAAAHHHHHH

[Matt700wlw]

Dunn's slump ends next at bat...

[MaineRed]

And what would be the smarter play, pinch hitting Castro?

[flyer85]

Dunn is going to come through this time.they will pitch around him unless he chooses to get himself out.

[redsfan30]

OHHHHH NOOO

That close!!!

[BRM]

Nail one to right Nature Boy

He tried but it went foul.

[MaineRed]

REDREAD, the 8th inning of today's game was plenty important. Weathers was in there.

[OldXOhio]

Cedric, hand em over. All of em. Including the one w/ kung fu grip.

[dabvu2498]

they will pitch around him unless he chooses to get himself out.
Steve Kline will be the man... he's tough on Dunn.

[REDREAD]

Leverage ... if you understand the concept you will get the point.


Got to keep the game close for when Johsnon comes in ;) :laugh:

[flyer85]

REDREAD, the 8th inning of today's game was plenty important. Weathers was in there.not as important as the 8th inning of a tie game on Sunday.

[VR]

they will pitch around him unless he chooses to get himself out.


Steve Kline

where's the split for Reds lefties vs. lefty relievers this year

[flyer85]

Steve Kline

where's the split for Reds lefties vs. lefty relievers this yearHe'll come in pitch carefully to Dunn and be gone

[Reds Fanatic]

Aurilia pops out to short. 1 out.

[redsfan30]

It's going to be up to Edwin because the chances of Dunn doing anything against Kline are slim to none.

[BRM]

Rich pops out to SS. 1 down.

[redsfan30]

Having Aurilia go at it is the right move there. No way do I have Rich give himself up with Dunn following him.

[dabvu2498]

That bunt sure is lookin good right about now.

[Highlifeman21]

FSN Bay Area announcers giving Narron the business for not having RA bunt Clayton over.

[MaineRed]

not as important as the 8th inning of a tie game on Sunday.

More important IMO. The Reds need this win.

[REDREAD]

REDREAD, the 8th inning of today's game was plenty important. Weathers was in there.

Ok, the point is that a tie game is also important. Why not use him there?

I'm not saying today is a sure loss by any means. People are wondering why Weathers is pitching when we are behind but not when the game is tied.
That's all.

I do agree that it's not a bad idea to use Weathers today because he's had 4 days rest (IIRC). Although it is quite humorous that Johnson is warming up to come in after Weathers if we don't get the lead.. that kind of shoots the theory that Jerry is trying to keep the game close (at least in my mind).

Hopefully, Johnson does not come in.

[Doc. Scott]

I'm back from donating blood. I told the attendants the slash marks were from reading too many game threads on a baseball message board.

[flyer85]

Having Aurilia go at it is the right move there. No way do I have Rich give himself up with Dunn following him.without a doubt. He is your 3rd place hitter, he should not be bunting. Dunn is more likely to hit a HR than a sac fly.

[Doc. Scott]

So Dunn watches two straight strikes with the game on the line. Good lord.

I can deal with 160 Ks a year and I'm all for the guy drawing a bunch of walks, but on an 0-1 count with runners on base, he should be a little more aggressive.

EDIT: Then he strikes out swinging.

[BRM]

Dunn K's. Two down.

[mbgrayson]

Dunn Ks....Ouch! Go Eddie!

[guttle11]

Adam Dunn is completely incapable of hitting a breaking ball from a lefty.

He needs to work on that.

[Matt700wlw]

Boy oh boy...

[NJReds]

Dunn K's. Two down.

A common theme lately. That's why a bunt would've been meaningless.

[redsfan30]

Adam Dunn is just brutal sometimes.

[registerthis]

E-E, double in the gap.

You can do it!

[CTA513]

Dunn might have a chance to break his own strike out record.

[MaineRed]

I'm not arguing for or against the non use on Sunday. I missed that game.

My point is it has nothing to do with today.

[redsfan30]

I swear when Adam is going like this I could go strike him out.

[OldXOhio]

Unacceptable at bat by Dunn. Completely unacceptable.

[traderumor]

Dunn is tiresome to watch and listen to.

[Kc61]

Dunn might have a chance to break his own strike out record.

Someone will soon explain again why it doesn't matter that Dunn has all these strikeouts.

Anyone who thinks Wayne Krivsky is paying this guy $13 million in 2008 is, IMO, mistaken.

[redsfan30]

Unacceptable at bat by Dunn. Completely unacceptable.

Sadly, you could see it coming from a mile away.

:(

[REDREAD]

So Dunn watches two straight strikes with the game on the line. Good lord.

I can deal with 160 Ks a year and I'm all for the guy drawing a bunch of walks, but on an 0-1 count with runners on base, he should be a little more aggressive.

EDIT: Then he strikes out swinging.

That's why I want Dunn permanently in the #2 slot. He's a great hitter, but I'm going to partially agree with Marty that he doesn't have the mentality of a cleanup hitter. He's way too OBP focused. Sometimes you've got to get that run in. If the ump is calling it a strike in that situation, you've got to swing, don't let yourself get in an 0-2 hole, waiting for the perfect pitch to swing at. Kline isn't likely to give you anything good.

[BRM]

EE works a walk. Two on, two out.

[GridironGrace]

Hitters count
need this run edwin

walk works


LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ROSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

[REDREAD]

I'm not arguing for or against the non use on Sunday. I missed that game.

My point is it has nothing to do with today.

And I do agree with you. When looking at today's game, it's not bad to make use of Weathers. Heck, the guy has had 4 days rest, the game is close. Run him out there.

Heck, I think that's a first. We agree on something. :laugh:

[Tony Cloninger]

I know Phillips is an annoying idiot.....BUT what did he say about AD earlier that was really wrong.

He had elaborated more and said K's you can deal with....but when runners are in scoring position you need someone who can make contact more than he does. Especially with a runner on third.....and less than 2 outs...which is where Clayton should have been after RA's hard but unproductive AB.

How is that wrong? How often does Dunn prove that wrong? Not as much as we probably all like.
Or maybe that is just my perception of it.

Either way.....i do not think it matters with this deficient in clutch situations hitting team....for the last 2 weeks.

It could have been Rod Carew up there and he would have K'd.

[redsfan30]

David Ross is due.

[MaineRed]

Ross is due!

[Highlifeman21]

EE works a walk. Two on, two out.

Great AB by EE

[redsfan30]

Oh.

My.

God.

Another first pitch out after a base on balls.

I can't take much more of this.

[Matt700wlw]

Awful. Absolutely awful.

[guttle11]

Unbelieveable.

[BRM]

Ross swings at the first pitch and hits a shallow pop fly to center. Inning over.

[mbgrayson]

First pitch swinging after a walk......arrrrrrgh!

[MaineRed]

DAMN!

Sorry Grande.

[Highlifeman21]

Way to swing at the first thing you see, Ross....

Man this team breaks my heart

[registerthis]

Bah.

[redsfan30]

And, as usually is the case...if the Reds are going to rally in the 9th, it's going to be the bottom of the order.

:(

[westofyou]

Being aggressive isn't without its warts either.

The Reds are on a streak of putridness with the bat that is perhaps the worst of the season.

[flyer85]

Someone will soon explain again why it doesn't matter that Dunn has all these strikeouts. it doesn't, Ryan Howard is not far behind in Ks(154). Do they matter to him?


Anyone who thinks Wayne Krivsky is paying this guy $13 million in 2008 is, IMO, mistaken.actually he won't be paying Dunn whatever the number is next year. He will be traded this off-season.

[REDREAD]

What a collasal disappointment.

[Red Leader]

And, as usually is the case...if the Reds are going to rally in the 9th, it's going to be the bottom of the order.

:(


Jerry Narron anticipated this. That's why he didn't use Mr. Hatt earlier.

[Falls City Beer]

I'm sure they'll break out of their funk when they're mathematically eliminated.

[flyer85]

What a collasal disappointment.that has been the last two months.

[Matt700wlw]

20,571 in attendance.

I don't know if there's that many.

[redsfan30]

Shoenwies is a good choice here.

[Tony Cloninger]

Cripes Ross......2nd time you expect a fat pitch after a BB before you....and you do not get it.......jeepers creepers is about as calm as i can write while i pretend to be JN and yell at Ross for 2 minutes while telling him not to bother putting on his gear.

[NJReds]

it doesn't, Ryan Howard is not far behind in Ks(154). Do they matter to him?

No, because he is a more productive hitter when he makes contact.

[redsfan30]

20,571 in attendance.

I don't know if there's that many.

Maybe if you count all the vendors, broadcasters and janitors.....

MAYBE.

[SteelSD]

it doesn't, Ryan Howard is not far behind in Ks(154). Do they matter to him?

Shhhhhh...quiet you!


actually he won't be paying Dunn whatever the number is next year. He will be traded this off-season.

I'm almost to the point of hoping that happens just for Dunn's sake.

[redsfan30]

I'm almost to the point of hoping that happens just for Dunn's sake.

Why?

[Matt700wlw]

Schoenwies has been a good pickup

[REDREAD]

I'm sure they'll break out of their funk when they're mathematically eliminated.

Usually that's the case, but this team is just a train wreck now, outside of a few players.

I know the slumps won't last forever, but it seems pretty easy to tame the Reds offense. When Dunn is up, nibble and either walk or K him. Let the rest of the hitters get themselves out. EdE will hurt you a little bit, but he can't win every game by himself. Occasionally Phillips or Ross comes through, but not too often.

[westofyou]

I'm almost to the point of hoping that happens just for Dunn's sake.

Hank Sauer, Joe Adcock, and perhaps Dunn.

Kinda sad to try and fit the square into the round hole (You know the round hole, it has a haircut like Moe Howard)

[flyer85]

No, because he is a more productive hitter when he makes contact.No, he is a more productive hitter, period. The "when he makes contact" argument adds nothing because if not striking out was important then Howard wouldn't be any good.

[OldXOhio]

He's a great hitter, but I'm going to partially agree with Marty that he doesn't have the mentality of a cleanup hitter.

Hate to battle over semantics RR, but that's a bit of a stretch to say Dunn's a great hitter. He's a hitter with a good eye and great power. He simply does enough things wrong at the plate to be considered great.

[Chip R]

I'm almost to the point of hoping that happens just for Dunn's sake.

Unless he radically changes his approach, Dunn is going to catch heat wherever he goes.

[westofyou]

20,571 in attendance.

I don't know if there's that many.

IIRC today is the first day of many Cincinnati school districts.

[oneupper]

I was thinking Wise for Ross and then Harris for Wise when they brought a lefty...but..

That would be putting to much pressure on a young player [/Jerry]

[BRM]

actually he won't be paying Dunn whatever the number is next year. He will be traded this off-season.

Will you stop saying that?

[NJReds]

I'm almost to the point of hoping that happens just for Dunn's sake.


Why, so he can go somewhere like NY, Boston or Philly? The booing would start on opening day.

He's got it rather easy here in Cincinnati. A few negative words on a message board, sure, but is he really beyond criticism?

[Red Leader]

Shhhhhh...quiet you!



I'm almost to the point of hoping that happens just for Dunn's sake.


Just watch, they'll trade him to the Astros for Wandy Rodriguez and Aubrey Huff and Astrobuddy will be the most rep'd poster on this board. :evil: :laugh:

[REDREAD]

.

Kinda sad to try and fit the square into the round hole (You know the round hole, it has a haircut like Moe Howard)

That's why I like Dunn in the #2 slot. That's his talent, taking pitches and hitting HRs. The round hole is batting him 4th, IMO.

[redsfan30]

Very nice inning out of Shoenwies.

[SteelSD]

Why?

To get him to a culture that nurtures his talents and allows him to grow without expecations of who he "should be".

Basically, he deserves to be given a chance with a team that understands him; thus allowing him to maximize his potential. I'm less and less thinking that Cincinnati is that place.

[REDREAD]

Hate to battle over semantics RR, but that's a bit of a stretch to say Dunn's a great hitter. He's a hitter with a good eye and great power. He simply does enough things wrong at the plate to be considered great.

Well, I can amend it to say either he or EdE is the best hitter on the team.

[traderumor]

Being aggressive isn't without its warts either.

The Reds are on a streak of putridness with the bat that is perhaps the worst of the season.Adam needs to find a happier place between aggressiveness and passivity at the plate. I say he is overly passive with the prodigious power that masks his inconsistency.

[flyer85]

Will you stop saying that?The writing is all over the wall for this one.

Don't worry he'll bring some scrappy-slap-hitting-put-the-ball-in-play defensive SS and a pitcher that can't miss bats.

[RedsMan3203]

Just got in... and checking box scores...

Kim only threw 56 pitches in 5 innings? WOW!

[Red Leader]

Very nice inning out of Shoenwies.

He hustles off the field and puts on his batting gloves, ready to make a bigger impact. :laugh:

[redsfan30]

Steel,

Adam Dunn has it pretty good hear. He rarely hears it from the crowd when he does something bad.

Put him in any other clubhouse and he gets booed off the field after 90% of his at bats.

[REDREAD]

Just watch, they'll trade him to the Astros for Wandy Rodriguez and Aubrey Huff and Astrobuddy will be the most rep'd poster on this board. :evil: :laugh:

:laugh: I had forgotten about those rumors.

[NJReds]

No, he is a more productive hitter, period. The "when he makes contact" argument adds nothing because if not striking out was important then Howard wouldn't be any good.


Okay. So Dunn's problem is that strikeouts aside, he's shown no improvement over the last two years as a hitter. In fact, his numbers have regressed slightly.

Dunn would probably get a free pass on the K's if he was hitting .310 w/140 RBI (or whatever Ryan has).

[flyer85]

Adam needs to find a happier place between aggressiveness and passivity at the plate. I say he is overly passive with the prodigious power that masks his inconsistency.right now the inconsistency is due to a hitch in his swing, his first move at the plate is dropping his hands. A very hard way to hit.

[Red Leader]

Stanton on for teh close.

[flyer85]

Okay. So Dunn's problem is that strikeouts aside, he's shown no improvement over the last two years as a hitter. In fact, his numbers have regressed slightly.

Dunn would probably get a free pass on the K's if he was hitting .310 w/140 RBI (or whatever Ryan has).and you make my argument, it ain't the strikeouts.

[Red Leader]

Phillips gave that one a ride, but it didn't have the distance.

1 out.

[westofyou]

right now the inconsistency is due to a hitch in his swing, his first move at the plate is dropping his hands. A very hard way to hit.

I think the guy could use more then a game or two off a year, he' s a big dude.

[Heath]

The writing is all over the wall for this one.

Don't worry he'll bring some scrappy-slap-hitting-put-the-ball-in-play defensive SS and a pitcher that can't miss bats.

You really are bi-polar aren't you?

[guttle11]

Okay. So Dunn's problem is that strikeouts aside, he's shown no improvement over the last two years as a hitter. In fact, his numbers have regressed slightly.

Dunn would probably get a free pass on the K's if he was hitting .310 w/140 RBI (or whatever Ryan has).


Can we stop the strikeout debate.

How about saying he needs to be more consistant. and he needs to learn to hit good pitches, not just mistakes.

Folks, Adam Dunn is not someone you build a team around. He's not Ryan Howard. He's a guy that will hit a lot of HR's, and get on base, but is easy to get out with a well placed pitch.

[REDREAD]

Just got in... and checking box scores...

Kim only threw 56 pitches in 5 innings? WOW!

From the thread reports, it looks like Kim gave up a lot of hard hit balls right at people. The low pitch count isn't necessarily indicative that he had a good game.

I'm not complaining though that he escaped with only giving up two runs.

[registerthis]

it doesn't, Ryan Howard is not far behind in Ks(154). Do they matter to him?

I'm not sure you want to be comparing Dunn to Howard--at least not this year. Howard's kicking the stuffing out of Dunn in pretty much every conceivable offensive category. I think Dunn's lack of contact would be excused by many more here if he were OPS'ing 1.069 and threatening to hit 60+ HRs and 160+ RBI.

[flyer85]

Juan Castro as the PH? This is going from absurd to sublime.

[Red Leader]

Castro PH's for Mrs. Buttersworth.

[Falls City Beer]

I suppose it's neither here nor there, but Cincy fans booed Dunn when I saw the Reds in July.

[Matt700wlw]

Why is "Fall to Pieces" in my head?

[dsmith421]

Put him in any other clubhouse and he gets booed off the field after 90% of his at bats.

So these fans are going to boo him off the field when he gets a hit or is on base? Those are some pretty freaking stupid fans.

[redsfan30]

This team is just totally, 100% snakebit.

[Heath]

Nice catch Farney.

[Matt700wlw]

I suppose it's neither here nor there, but Cincy fans booed Dunn when I saw the Reds in July.

Why?

[NJReds]

and you make my argument, it ain't the strikeouts.


Statistically no. In the minds of paying customers, yes.

It ain't fair, but that's life.

[Reds Fanatic]

Hatteberg hits for Schoenweis

[CrackerJack]

Dunn misses eating bags of Doritos and playing video games with his buddy Austin in the clubhouse, becoming a better hitter/fielder doesn't seem to be as important anymore. He can coast on what he has and make millions, and Griffey can be nice to the visiting kids in the clubhouse and we all feel warm and fuzzy and forget losing records and underachieving players.

[Highlifeman21]

Great catch by the SF LF

[redsfan30]

Nothing much left to say.....

:(

[Matt700wlw]

Pig vomit.

[flyer85]

I'm not sure you want to be comparing Dunn to Howard--at least not this year. Howard's kicking the stuffing out of Dunn in pretty much every conceivable offensive category. and yet has almost as many Ks. Which kinda leads me to beleive that there is something there that makes the difference, and it must be something other than strikeouts.

[REDREAD]

Castro PH's for Mrs. Buttersworth.


OMG, Jerry, come on. :bang:

thanks for throwing in the towel. Even if this works, it's a dumb move.

[registerthis]

...and that's that.

Phooey.

[Falls City Beer]

Why?

A strikeout.

[Reds Fanatic]

I didn't get to hear the last play gamecenter says Hatteberg grounded bunt out to left.

[flyer85]

That 9th inning was at warp speed. Must be some spread in the clubhouse.

[VR]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/01/08/postagerate.hike.ap/storyvert.stamp.ap.jpg

[guttle11]

and yet has almost as many Ks. Which kinda leads me to beleive that there is something there that makes the difference, and it must be something other than strikeouts.


The fact that Howard's just a better player, maybe?

[pedro]

any team that PH's Juan Castro with the game on the line deserves to lose.

[traderumor]

To get him to a culture that nurtures his talents and allows him to grow without expecations of who he "should be".

Basically, he deserves to be given a chance with a team that understands him; thus allowing him to maximize his potential. I'm less and less thinking that Cincinnati is that place.He is played every day and the Reds coaching staff and management have given media answers for his strikeouts, but its clear they consider his production and overall approach acceptable. I don't think a trade is going to come because he drives observers like fans and the media nutty with the inconsistency. I think he is understood fine by those making decisions. That doesn't mean they might not jump on a trade offer if someone who really, really appreciates his offense comes along.

[Ltlabner]

Statistically no. In the minds of paying customers, yes.

It ain't fair, but that's life.

If he hit ground outs instead of K's people would be just as torked. Right or wrong they would be making the same complaints. An out is an out.

[redsfan30]

I'm fine with Castro hitting there.

He's had some big hits in big spots this year.

[REDREAD]

I suppose it's neither here nor there, but Cincy fans booed Dunn when I saw the Reds in July.

Did he make an error? I'm not defending booing, but generally I've only seen Dunn booed here when he makes a goof on defense.

[SteelSD]

Steel,

Adam Dunn has it pretty good hear. He rarely hears it from the crowd when he does something bad.

Put him in any other clubhouse and he gets booed off the field after 90% of his at bats.

I'm talking about management culture, not fan base. Dunn's an impressionable guy. Always has been. Wants to do well. Wants to fit in. Does dumb things because of it.

What he's needed for a couple years now is for someone to sit him down and tell him to stop listening to anyone but himself and stop taking cues from culture changes as evidence that he somehow needs to change to follow along. He needs to be pushed to do nothing other than what he already knows how to do.

Get him on a team that'll push that way, and you've got a legend.

[westofyou]

That 9th inning was at warp speed. Must be some spread in the clubhouse.

They were reading the game thread, afraid they might K if they go deep.... gotta get those Doritos I guess...:help:

[oneupper]

I didn't get to hear the last play gamecenter says Hatteberg grounded bunt out to left.

Fly out to left on the first pitch.

[flyer85]

The fact that Howard's just a better player, maybe?I would say hitter, but then he is a better hitter than anyone not named Pujols.

[REDREAD]

A strikeout.

Ok, thanks.

[Reds Fanatic]

Fly out to left on the first pitch.
Actually for Hatteberg he is one player that it is rare he swings at the first pitch.

[NJReds]

What he's needed for a couple years now is for someone to sit him down and tell him to stop listening to anyone but himself and stop taking cues from culture changes as evidence that he somehow needs to change to follow along. He needs to be pushed to do nothing other than what he already knows how to do.

You may have a point. That's what the Yankees did with O'Neill and it worked out pretty well.

[REDREAD]

any team that PH's Juan Castro with the game on the line deserves to lose.


Totally agree. Especially with expanded rosters.

[Heath]

The board complains when "potential" is traded for pitching (WMP)

The board complains when "potential" is traded for relief pitching (Kearns/Lopez) because the offense will suffer.

Now, the board is predicting a Dunn deal in the off-season.

Huh? What kind of medications are getting mixed in here?

[guttle11]

I would say hitter, but then he is a better hitter than anyone not named Pujols.


Right, so let's not compare them. Howard's a step (or two) above Dunn.

Adam Dunn should be compared to Jim Thome.

[Falls City Beer]

I'm talking about management culture, not fan base. Dunn's an impressionable guy. Always has been. Wants to do well. Wants to fit in. Does dumb things because of it.

What he's needed for a couple years now is for someone to sit him down and tell him to stop listening to anyone but himself and stop taking cues from culture changes as evidence that he somehow needs to change to follow along. He needs to be pushed to do nothing other than what he already knows how to do.

Get him on a team that'll push that way, and you've got a legend.

It's my take too. When you're Elvis no one should ask you to be Frank Sinatra.

You just end up with Cousin Oliver from the Brady Bunch.

[registerthis]

and yet has almost as many Ks. Which kinda leads me to beleive that there is something there that makes the difference, and it must be something other than strikeouts.

Yep, he's also a far better overall hitter than Dunn. Gets on base more frequently, gets more hits, hits for more power...simply an overall better offensive player. Which is why I don't think Howard should be compared to Dunn in any category. For this season, they aren't comparable.

[oneupper]

Actually for Hatteberg he is one player that it is rare he swings at the first pitch.

Probably good that he did, don't think Stanton was expecting it. Just didn't get enough of it.

[flyer85]

any team that PH's Juan Castro with the game on the line deserves to lose.He is a scrappy vet ... and Jerry's heart told him to do to it.

Where's the love, man?

[westofyou]

He is played every day and the Reds coaching staff and management have given media answers for his strikeouts, but its clear they consider his production and overall approach acceptable. I don't think a trade is going to come because he drives observers like fans and the media nutty with the inconsistency. I think he is understood fine by those making decisions. That doesn't mean they might not jump on a trade offer if someone who really, really appreciates his offense comes along.

I agree, plus the Reds aren't going to all of the sudden become the 1959 White Sox, they value defense and not making outs and power, not everybody is Tony Gwynn and the belief that there is a Vlad Guerrreo out there that can slide into Dunns spot might blow up faster then you can say "Adrian Beltre"

BTW I like 3-2 losses way more then 8-5 losses... but that's just me I guess.

[CTA513]

So these fans are going to boo him off the field when he gets a hit or is on base? Those are some pretty freaking stupid fans.

Yankee fans boo Alex Rodriguez for everything he does.

[flyer85]

funny thing in the land of expanded rosters, the Reds did not have a single RH power bat on the bench.

[NJReds]

The board complains when "potential" is traded for pitching (WMP)

The board complains when "potential" is traded for relief pitching (Kearns/Lopez) because the offense will suffer.

Now, the board is predicting a Dunn deal in the off-season.

Huh? What kind of medications are getting mixed in here?

Predicting is not the same as complaining.

Based on WK's short track record here, it seems logical that he'll shop Dunn, no?

[Heath]

Yankee fans boo Alex Rodriguez for everything he does.

Errors and Strikeouts included.

A-Rod for Dunn?

:dunno:

[REDREAD]

It's my take too. When you're Elvis no one should ask you to be Frank Sinatra.

You just end up with Cousin Oliver from the Brady Bunch.

That's my take too. Let's play to Dunn's strengths. Park him in the #2 slot. Give him protection in the lineup so he's less likely to be pitched around.

Let him rack up an enormous OBP with power and score 120 runs/season.

Don't put him in the cleanup slot (or worse, the #5 hole).