PDA

View Full Version : Game Thread 9-17 - if anyone cares



Chip R
09-17-2006, 01:58 PM
Cincinnati
D. Wise cf
S. Hatteberg 1b
R. Aurilia ss
A. Dunn lf
E. Encarnacion 3b
J. Valentin c
T. Hollandsworth rf
R. Olmedo 2b
E. Milton p*

*Chi Cubs
J. Pierre cf
R. Theriot 2b
A. Ramirez 3b
M. Murton lf
J. Jones rf
H. Blanco 1b
R. Cedeno ss
G. Soto c
C. Zambrano p

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 02:00 PM
Bengals 14...Browns 3

The Browns smell bad, too....

Gallen5862
09-17-2006, 02:03 PM
Is this a give up lineup?

KittyDuran
09-17-2006, 02:05 PM
I'm here... in spirit at least (might not post). :) Hey Chip... I got a ticket for the last home game (9/25-Monday 12:35 w/the Cubs). I used my last 50% off coupon to get a seat behind home plate (where we've sat before). Think you might be able to get off work?

KittyDuran
09-17-2006, 02:06 PM
Is this a give up lineup?Sunday Special is the more common term...;)

Chip R
09-17-2006, 02:08 PM
I'm here... in spirit at least (might not post). :) Hey Chip... I got a ticket for the last home game (9/25-Monday 12:35 w/the Cubs). I used my last 50% off coupon to get a seat behind home plate (where we've sat before). Think you might be able to get off work?

I don't know. I'll check and get back to you.

KittyDuran
09-17-2006, 02:10 PM
I don't know. I'll check and get back to you.OK... I'll be at the rest of the series with the Cubs [and I might spurge a little for Friday and Saturday]. I'm going to check on the availability of the company tickets for all the games as well. :)

Gallen5862
09-17-2006, 02:12 PM
Kitty thanks for the Sunday Special reference. :)

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 02:20 PM
Reds' games in the last half of September are always nail-biters. This one, I'm sure, will be no exception.

KittyDuran
09-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Kitty thanks for the Sunday Special reference. :)Speaking of... from Marc's blog:

Sunday, September 17, 2006
Sunday special lineup?

CHICAGO -- No, said Jerry Narron. "We've got a Zambrano special lineup." Lefties are hitting .266 against the Cubs' ace and right-handers a frightening .165, so Narron is loading it up on the port side again.

Wise CF
Hatteberg 1B
Aurilia SS
Dunn LF
Encarnacion 3B
Valentin C
Hollandsworth RF
Olmedo 2B
Milton P

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:24 PM
Wise grounds out 1 down

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:25 PM
Hatteberg grounds to first 2 down

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:28 PM
Rich at least takes some pitches.. and on the 7th pitch takes the walk

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:31 PM
Dunn works the count as well.. and flys out to CF

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2006, 02:31 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if Dunn's going to hit anymore homers this year.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 02:34 PM
Nice start, Milton.

Elbow still an issue?

Chip R
09-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Doesn't sound like Milton is fooling anyone.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 02:39 PM
Nice start, Milton.

Elbow still an issue?bad knee, sore elbow ... a bad combination

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 02:42 PM
This game is over.

Go do something productive, all...

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:42 PM
Thats the ball game!

4-0 Cubs... 1 out.. Blanco doubles...

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 02:42 PM
Ugh. 4-0 on the Jones HR and then a line drive Double to Blanco.

Milton.

vaticanplum
09-17-2006, 02:42 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere on the board but I cannot believe Zambrano is pitching. He leads the majors in pitches thrown I think, he hurt his arm and is not due back til later this week if at all, the Cubs are eliminated, and he runs himself out there (and is allowed to do it). Presumably for the Cy Young effort. You've got to be kidding me. At this point this is their one reliable lights-out pitcher, and they're just doing everything they can to destroy him too. Do I feel for Cubs fans? Sometimes, on my more empathetic days. Do I think the organization deserves what it gets for decisions like this? Absolutely.

addendum: and surprise, surprise, it looks like the Cubs won't need a decent pitcher on the mound anyway.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 02:45 PM
in two months from a playoff contender to a joke

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:45 PM
This organization has their hands full comming into the offseason.. I think a new coaching staff is needed...

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 02:45 PM
Make it 6-0

Go Bengals.

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:45 PM
6-0 Cya!

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 02:46 PM
Cedeno with a two-Run jack. 6-0 Cubs. Milton looks absolutely awful.

Chip R
09-17-2006, 02:46 PM
I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere on the board but I cannot believe Zambrano is pitching. He leads the majors in pitches thrown I think, he hurt his arm and is not due back til later this week if at all, the Cubs are eliminated, and he runs himself out there (and is allowed to do it). Presumably for the Cy Young effort. You've got to be kidding me. At this point this is their one reliable lights-out pitcher, and they're just doing everything they can to destroy him too. Do I feel for Cubs fans? Sometimes, on my more empathetic days. Do I think the organization deserves what it gets for decisions like this? Absolutely.

addendum: and surprise, surprise, it looks like the Cubs won't need a decent pitcher on the mound anyway.

I thought he hurt his back?

Milton's gone. Kim in.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 02:46 PM
Milton done. Records one out.

RedLegSuperStar
09-17-2006, 02:47 PM
in two months from a playoff contender to a joke

the critics can rejoice... so upsetting

MrCinatit
09-17-2006, 02:47 PM
At least one team in this city has a winning spirit.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 02:47 PM
This organization has their hands full comming into the offseason.. I think a new coaching staff is needed...I wouldn't mind a new FO. There are mistakes that can be made that negate all the good. "The trade" has risen to that level.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2006, 02:47 PM
Giving up a HR to Ronny Cedeno is one of the more embarrassing moments of the season. That guy is one of the worst starting position players in baseball.

Chip R
09-17-2006, 02:48 PM
When Ronny Cedeno hits one out, you have a problem.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 02:50 PM
Giving up a HR to Ronny Cedeno is one of the more embarrassing moments of the season. That guy is one of the worst starting position players in baseball.the man is hurt, it is a much bigger joke to actually be running him out there. Of course, they really have no one else, but don't worry because Homer will make them a winner next year.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2006, 02:50 PM
Zambrano homers. :laugh:

vaticanplum
09-17-2006, 02:51 PM
I thought he hurt his back?

Yes, you're right.

At least Milton has returned to form and I can see clearly again re: the fact that he should not under any circumstances be part of the Reds' starting rotation.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 02:51 PM
This team is a joke.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 02:51 PM
Carlos Zambrano now smokes one out. 7-0. Same fan gets two HR balls.

vaticanplum
09-17-2006, 02:51 PM
Zambrano homers. :laugh:

That is less of a joke than Cedeno, actually. Zambrano is a good hitter, he's got at least five homers this year.

Yes, people, I'm searching for the bright side.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2006, 02:52 PM
Now that the Reds are done, I'm hoping for a Tigers/A's ALCS and Mets/Dodgers NLCS.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2006, 02:53 PM
Sun Woo Kim is not our savior.

vaticanplum
09-17-2006, 02:53 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the Yankees are now tied with the Mets for the best record in baseball, if anybody cares.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 02:53 PM
Pierre singles.

vaticanplum
09-17-2006, 02:54 PM
Watch Dunn get hot today. That would be high-larious.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 02:55 PM
sickening...absolutely sickening...

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 02:56 PM
Well, the Bears put up 24 points in the first half today. The Cubs are just trying to catch up.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2006, 02:57 PM
The Reds are 25th in runs scored since the All-Star Break.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 02:58 PM
Well, the Bears put up 24 points in the first half today. The Cubs are just trying to catch up.

Jon Kitna is not he Lions' savior...

Chip R
09-17-2006, 03:01 PM
That is less of a joke than Cedeno, actually. Zambrano is a good hitter, he's got at least five homers this year.

Yes, people, I'm searching for the bright side.

Always look on the bright side of life. ;)

http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Images/crucifiction.jpg

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 03:01 PM
Jon Kitna is not he Lions' savior...

Well, it's the Lions so I'm not sure any one guy could be. That being said...

Kitna: 17/19- 181 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT

He's tryin'.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:03 PM
will this team win 3 more games this year?

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:04 PM
milton's era back up over 5...now at 5.19...

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 03:07 PM
:laugh:

8-0

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 03:07 PM
Murton with a bomb. 8-0 Cubs.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 03:07 PM
I say just cancel the remaining games and say the hell with it...

flyer85
09-17-2006, 03:08 PM
will this team win 3 more games this year?I'm beginning to think my 76-86 prediction will be about right.

vaticanplum
09-17-2006, 03:09 PM
For crying out loud, are we still in the first goddurn inning? Are we approaching a record here?

flyer85
09-17-2006, 03:11 PM
and its not like the Cubs resemble anything close to a good team. Everyone else has been beating their brains out.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:14 PM
the d. lee less cubs scoring 8 runs in two innings...if that doesn't tell you that your pitching staff needs help, i don't know what does:bang:

KronoRed
09-17-2006, 03:15 PM
First game thread I check in months and I get a Milton!?!?!

:bang:

flyer85
09-17-2006, 03:16 PM
the d. lee less cubs scoring 8 runs in two innings...if that doesn't tell you that your pitching staff needs help, i don't know what does:bang:nothing to worry about, the Reds got Majik and Bray.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 03:16 PM
The Bears see what the Cubs are doing offensively and put up another 7 points to strengthen their lead.

Chip R
09-17-2006, 03:24 PM
Cubs don't score!!! Woo hoo!!! Still 8-0 Cubs after 3.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 03:28 PM
Milton's still here; for that alone Wayne should be run out of town on a rail.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:32 PM
1st and 2nd with no outs...ee strikes out and valentin grounds into dp...imagine that

Mutaman
09-17-2006, 03:33 PM
Milton's still here; for that alone Wayne should be run out of town on a rail.

What do you suggest he should have done with him?

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 03:35 PM
Milton's still here; for that alone Wayne should be run out of town on a rail.

And which team wants to take the contract?

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 03:35 PM
:laugh:

9-0

flyer85
09-17-2006, 03:36 PM
those Kearns and Lopez guys have driven in 5 today.

Mutaman
09-17-2006, 03:40 PM
those Kearns and Lopez guys have driven in 5 today.

And, with some luck, they might lead their team to their 65th win.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 03:41 PM
And, with some luck, they might lead their team to their 65th win.sure look like they are on the better team.

westofyou
09-17-2006, 03:43 PM
sure look like they are on the better team.

Well they did pass the Reds in team errors. They do have goals.

KronoRed
09-17-2006, 03:44 PM
What do you suggest he should have done with him?

DFA

Chip R
09-17-2006, 03:44 PM
those Kearns and Lopez guys have driven in 5 today.

And if they had done that for the Reds today, they would only be down by 5 instead of 10.

MrCinatit
09-17-2006, 03:45 PM
Kearns and Lopez are not your saviors.

westofyou
09-17-2006, 03:45 PM
Milton's still here; for that alone Wayne should be run out of town on a rail.

If you try hard enough maybe you can get an effigy burning going for the guy who took over the team on Febuary 8th.

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 03:46 PM
If you try hard enough maybe you can get an effigy burning going for the guy who took over the team on Febuary 8th.

No no WOY, it's totally reasonable to expect total perfection and that 15+ years of franchise abuse would be undone in 8 months.

Mutaman
09-17-2006, 03:47 PM
sure look like they are on the better team.

That's because of their great general manager. Maybe we can offer him enough money to come back and run our team. No thanks, been there, done that, let's look to the future.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:49 PM
And which team wants to take the contract?

couldn't something be worked out with one of the clubs that has a big ballpark...milton's bad, but he's good for the occasional solid outing...not that i'm defending him, but i think he has 14 quality starts, of which he took the loss on 5...problem is when he's bad, he's very, very bad...

flyer85
09-17-2006, 03:50 PM
That's because of their great general manager. Maybe we can offer him enough money to come back and run our team. No thanks, been there, done that, let's look to the future.if you're a Reds fan the future looks bleak unless a bunch of guys found a new level of performance this year.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:51 PM
9 hits in 23 innings...take out that three run bomb by ross and we're looking at 1 run and 8 hits over the weekend...wow...

Heath
09-17-2006, 03:52 PM
No no WOY, it's totally reasonable to expect total perfection and that 15+ years of franchise abuse would be undone in 8 months.

Why are you posting a reasonable sentence? Don't you know you are different, and WayneK's an idiot? Drink the Kool-Aid man.

:rolleyes:

You know after 6 months that a person can't do his job, I guess I don't have the extrasensory vision like people who want to drop kick Wayne K to the curb.

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 03:53 PM
The performance over the last two months speaks volumes about this team.

Heath
09-17-2006, 03:56 PM
if you're a Reds fan the future looks bleak unless a bunch of guys found a new level of performance this year.

The future of this franchise has looked bleak since 2001. And the new GM needs to be run out of town thanks to inept previous management decisions.

Building a baseball team takes time, not some fairy godmother waving her magic wand. See you later when the bandwagon's rolling again.

Mutaman
09-17-2006, 03:58 PM
if you're a Reds fan the future looks bleak unless a bunch of guys found a new level of performance this year.

So what should we do, start rooting for the Yankees? Spend the next year continuing to whine about Kearns and Lopez? No thanks. As far as I'm concerned the future is a lot brighter than a year ago simply beause Linder and o'Brien are out of the picture. Some of Wayne's moves worked, and some didn't, but I still am more optomistic that we now have people running things who know what the're doing. Let's hope this organization will spend a little money, make a few decent trades, and start restocking the minors. Its not like the competition is all that formidable.

westofyou
09-17-2006, 03:58 PM
The performance over the last two months speaks volumes about this team.

The last 2 months?

I'd say the stretch between 6-5 and 7-5 was the forebearer of what it could become.

The last 3 weeks has been just like that stretch, up until the SF series in late August the Reds had won 8 series, lost 4 and split 1, true in August they were 8-10 up until the West Coast swing, but they were not as smelly as they are now.

2 months of bad stink yes, but 2 seperate months from where I'm sitting.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 03:58 PM
Bengals 34, Browns 10

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 03:59 PM
The performance over the last two months speaks volumes about this team.

6 - 14 since beating the giants and sharing the lead with the cardinals on august 24...

flyer85
09-17-2006, 04:00 PM
The future of this franchise has looked bleak since 2001. And the new GM needs to be run out of town thanks to inept previous management decisions.
the future stinks and this GM blew off his own foot by drafting Stubbs and the trade of Kearns/Lopez for nothing in return. This team didn't really move forward in any appreciable way unless a number of career seasons are actually new levels of performance(which is highly unlikely).

redsrule2500
09-17-2006, 04:00 PM
Milton's still here; for that alone Wayne should be run out of town on a rail.

Oh please he has been fine this year. Nothing amazing, but a solid 4th starter.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 04:06 PM
:laugh:

11-0

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 04:11 PM
Oh please he has been fine this year. Nothing amazing, but a solid 4th starter.

Eric Milton circa 2006 only looks "fine" in comparison versus Eric Milton circa 2005.

Eric Milton came into today's game as one of only four NL ERA title qualifiers who possessed a DIPS rate of 5.00 or higher. And he most likely just made that worse today. The guy was the worst pitcher in the NL last season and is one of less than a handful of the worst pitchers in the NL this season.

That's...not...fine.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 04:16 PM
No no WOY, it's totally reasonable to expect total perfection and that 15+ years of franchise abuse would be undone in 8 months.

Funny how this team is no better on September 17th than they were on February 8th.

BrooklynRedz
09-17-2006, 04:19 PM
Eric Milton circa 2006 only looks "fine" in comparison versus Eric Milton circa 2005.

Eric Milton came into today's game as one of only four NL ERA title qualifiers who possessed a DIPS rate of 5.00 or higher. And he most likely just made that worse today. The guy was the worst pitcher in the NL last season and is one of less than a handful of the worst pitchers in the NL this season.

That's...not...fine.

Yup.

Worst pitcher in the NL last season. Keep re-reading that over and over again and maybe, just maybe some on here will understand just why he's still on this roster. For those blaming Krivsky for Milton still wearing red, please tell me how you would have rid that albatross without eating the contract.

Heath
09-17-2006, 04:20 PM
Funny how this team is no better on September 17th than they were on February 8th.

So you agree that 8 months can't correct (and I'll give them the past 6 years instead of the past 15 years that Abner says) a longer previous ineptitude by previous ownership and management?

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 04:21 PM
please tell me how you would have rid that albatross without eating the contract.

I've said this till I was blue in the face: DFA, or palm him off on a team willing to take on even a sliver of his contract. Either way, he's getting paid by the Reds--might as well pay him NOT to hurt the Reds.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 04:23 PM
So you agree that 8 months can't correct (and I'll give them 6 years instead of 15 years) a longer previous ineptitude by previous ownership and management?

6 years? :eek:

This team will be located in San Jose if they don't put up a winner by that time.

There are some putrid standards on this board.

Heath
09-17-2006, 04:27 PM
the future stinks and this GM blew off his own foot by drafting Stubbs and the trade of Kearns/Lopez for nothing in return. This team didn't really move forward in any appreciable way unless a number of career seasons are actually new levels of performance(which is highly unlikely).

The future's been bad since 2001 - and you expect one miraculous turnaround in a season. You are a prentious myopic fan.

You still only bring up one trade. A trade that involved two players that have not performed to even career average levels who you think should garner major trade stuff in return, when it was said that time after time that on the open market (also confirmed by two posters who have major league contacts) that neither one had much trade value.

We appreciate your candor and whining and moaning. We get it. When you want to discuss something new, please do so.

Mutaman
09-17-2006, 04:27 PM
I've said this till I was blue in the face: DFA, or palm him off on a team willing to take on even a sliver of his contract. Either way, he's getting paid by the Reds--might as well pay him NOT to hurt the Reds.

And our third starter would have been who? And don't tell me anybody's better than Milton, not after some of the stiffs I've seen out there this year.

Signing Milton was a bad move, we're stuck with him, the organization handled him as well as they could under the circumstances.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 04:28 PM
Yup.

Worst pitcher in the NL last season. Keep re-reading that over and over again and maybe, just maybe some on here will understand just why he's still on this roster. For those blaming Krivsky for Milton still wearing red, please tell me how you would have rid that albatross without eating the contract.

Well, it's not not necessarily easy, but Texas was able to move Chan Ho Park. That doesn't mean that part (or most) of Milton's contract wouldn't be paid by the Reds (unless they took on a near-equally bloated contract). But when you've got a player who's already a sunk cost, that doesn't mean he's also necessarily an immovable object.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 04:31 PM
And our third starter would have been who? And don't tell me anybody's better than Milton, not after some of the stiffs I've seen out there this year.

Signing Milton was a bad move, we're stuck with him, the organization handled him as well as they could under the circumstances.

It really doesn't make much difference who the "third" starter is; the point is when buying a fixer-upper to clean out the pile of cow dung from the living room first.

Heath
09-17-2006, 04:34 PM
6 years? :eek:

This team will be located in San Jose if they don't put up a winner by that time.

There are some putrid standards on this board.

I edited my previous comment.

Do I want the Reds to suck all the time? No.

Did I expect the Reds to be a couple of games under .500 on September 15th, with a Wild Card Lead on August 29th? No.

Do I throw Wayne Krvisky under the bus because I have extra-sensory perception that he's going to suck as a GM because of his first 6 months on the job? - No.

I just don't get how people can think they have the "answers" (who have no previous GM or baseball experience) yet two posters on this board get drilled who have baseball contacts or experience because the answers aren't the ones you want.

Give Wayne Krivsky a break for crying out loud.

BTW - I'm willing to be patient. This isn't the NFL where you can yo-yo from good-to-bad-back-to-good in the span of making microwave popcorn.

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 04:36 PM
Funny how this team is no better on September 17th than they were on February 8th.

While they certinally have played like crap the past few weeks they are a far sight ahead of being in dead last are they not? That's where they were picked to be back before the season. Not sure how that isn't an improvement.

So yea, I'd say we're a lot better off than where we were on 2.8.

Lots of problem areas and needs to fill, no doubt about that, but not the last place dreck the experts projected us to be.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 04:36 PM
The future's been bad since 2001 - and you expect one miraculous turnaround in a season. You are a prentious myopic fan.

That's a direct personal attack. Can you read the board rules?


You still only bring up one trade. A trade that involved two players that have not performed to even career average levels who you think should garner major trade stuff in return, when it was said that time after time that on the open market (also confirmed by two posters who have major league contacts) that neither one had much trade value.

You were told what the most likely result of that trade would be. Now it's happened. Oopsie.


We appreciate your candor and whining and moaning. We get it. When you want to discuss something new, please do so.

Stop the personal attacks and and start addressing actual points. Oh, and I'm not sure what "we" you're think you're speaking for but be assured that you do not speak for the entirety of the board. Talk baseball or move along because, speaking for myself, I'm far more tired of the constant attacks than I am of anything FCB has posted- regardless of how far over the top it may be. Y'know why? Becuase FCB is posting about baseball rather than playing Redszone hall monitor. Figure it out.

Cyclone792
09-17-2006, 04:45 PM
Eric Milton 2004-2006 ...

Innings: 540
K/9: 6.23
BB/9: 2.82
HR/9: 1.87

DIPS ERA: 5.29

Eric Milton is just a horrible pitcher eating up a wealth of cash, nothing more, nothing less. As a Reds pitcher, he fits right in.

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 04:47 PM
You were told what the most likely result of that trade would be. Now it's happened. Oopsie.

I knew the offense would decrease (as shown clearly by Cyclone) due to the trade.

But you can't discount the horrific slumps of Dunn, Ross, Phillips, Hatteburg, EE, Freel, and Jr for sending the offense on a complete vacation.

And those slumps have zero to do with "the trade". Unless "the trade" had some sort of post traumatic stress effect that triggered a collective team slump well after the fact.

In the words of Bob Newhart, these slumps are best termed, "ill timed".

Heath
09-17-2006, 04:49 PM
That's a direct personal attack. Can you read the board rules?

Steel - It's been that way all year - we've been subject to abuse the other way. I've been very good at holding my tongue. But to beat the dead horse again and again and again is short-sighted and unproductive. We get the point.


You were told what the most likely result of that trade would be. Now it's happened. Oopsie.

Yep, oopsie. Wayne Krivsky, in an effort to try to improve a weakness, sold two underperforming major-leaguers with "potential", one who hasn't had a solid major league season since Ray King sat on him and a 2-tool weak fielding shortstop who had a career year the year before, for some type of relief pitching, pitching that has been needed on this club for YEARS. It was effort, and effort that was so badly needed on this club. Two respected members of this board, BrooklynRedZ and TeamClark, both with experience and contacts in the Major Leagues both said that the two players traded from this club had little or no value. We got what we got. It blew up. I was one of 4 or 5 who actually liked the deal. That's my own fault. I was wrong. My bad.



Stop the personal attacks and and start addressing actual points. Oh, and I'm not sure what "we" you're think you're speaking for but be assured that you do not speak for the entirety of the board. Talk baseball or move along because, speaking for myself, I'm far more tired of the constant attacks than I am of anything FCB has posted- regardless of how far over the top it may be. Y'know why? Becuase FCB is posting about baseball rather than playing Redszone hall monitor. Figure it out.

I know I don't speak for the entirety of the board. I'm a minority around around here. If it wasn;t for the humor or play on words or my enjoyment of baseball history, or just the camadrie of posting during game threads, I'd be the worlds biggest lurker. I have addressed points on countless occasions (with real statistics too!) But, If I am getting called out for personal attacks because I'm responding to people who time and time again show their distaste
for the current adminstration by using big words for "Wayne Krivsky Sucks", I think there needs to be a two-way street here.

Steel - if you want to PM to discuss this further - please do so.

mbgrayson
09-17-2006, 04:50 PM
What are we doing with DeWayne Wise?

Now hitting .182. OBP also is .182. Zero walks in 22 ABs. 5 Ks, 3 singles, and one double. That is it. Zero RBIs. This guy is hitting 40 points lower than our starting pitcher today, and he is leading off???

I'm all for giving prospects a 'cup of coffee' in September. However, is 28 year old Larry DeWayne Wise a prospect? Why not let 26 year old Chris Denorfia play for some experience hitting Zambrano?

traderumor
09-17-2006, 04:51 PM
It really doesn't make much difference who the "third" starter is; the point is when buying a fixer-upper to clean out the pile of cow dung from the living room first.It was. It was in the form of a firing on the first day of business for Castellini. The amazing thing is that apparently the Brewers liked the smell of it.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 04:53 PM
I knew the offense would decrease (as shown clearly by Cyclone) due to the trade.

But you can't discount the horrific slumps of Dunn, Ross, Phillips, Hatteburg, EE, Freel, and Jr for sending the offense on a complete vacation. change the dynamic of a patient and solid offense and guess what, you don't really know what the actual outcome to be. Is "the trade" completely to blame? No it isn't, but it has a large part in it.

Thanks Steel but I can ignore the personal attacks because it shows the lack of an argument to be made.

KronoRed
09-17-2006, 04:54 PM
I'm all for giving prospects a 'cup of coffee' in September. However, is 28 year old Larry DeWayne Wise a prospect? Why not let 26 year old Chris Denorfia play for some experience hitting Zambrano?

They apparently still don't think it is Deno's time ;)

flyer85
09-17-2006, 04:56 PM
Reds could use a couple more under-achieveing OFs with 20+ HRs and 80+ RBIs.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 05:00 PM
Wow...a run

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:00 PM
I knew the offense would decrease (as shown clearly by Cyclone) due to the trade.

But you can't discount the horrific slumps of Dunn, Ross, Phillips, Hatteburg, EE, Freel, and Jr for sending the offense on a complete vacation.

And those slumps have zero to do with "the trade".

Really? You don't think that removing significant OBP, discipline, speed, and extra base power from a team might have a negative result on other players? Before the trade, the offense was far more slump-proof. The presence of players in a lineup (particularly when they can work counts) does have an effect on how other players perform. Because your lineup is a dynamic system, sometimes you lose more than just individual performance when you mess with it.

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 05:01 PM
Wow....another run

Matt700wlw
09-17-2006, 05:03 PM
..And another run...

11-3

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:04 PM
And Wise with another of his patented "ground ball to infielder x" closes this one out.

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:05 PM
Reds could use a couple more under-achieveing OFs with 20+ HRs and 80+ RBIs.

Who is at .245/6/31/.776 since the trade. He hit .189 in August and he's hitting less than .250 with RISP.

His slump would fit in quite well with this ballclub.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:06 PM
I am truly amazed how this team went from a surplus of OFs to a serious shortage. And there is no help coming in the minors and no reason to believe Jr will move from CF.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:07 PM
Who is at .245/6/31/.776 since the trade. He hit .189 in August and he's hitting less than .250 with RISP.

His slump would fit in quite well with this ballclub.Lets bring on Hopper and Wise and I am sure they will get the 20/80 next year.

Maybe a lot of Kearns success how to do with the dynamic of the Reds offense.

Nah, I'll just come stick my head in the sand with everyone else.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 05:09 PM
I am truly amazed how this team went from a surplus of OFs to a serious shortage. And there is no help coming in the minors and no reason to believe Jr will move from CF.

The good thing is that a competent GM should be able to trade for well-above replacement level outfield talent. But then, it would require GM competence.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:09 PM
For those who were wondering why so little actual game facts are contained in game threads, it is because the score is evident by the nature of the posts and who is posting. Reading about the impact of "the trade" in a blowout game sounds like someone who has been singing 999 bottles of beer on the wall and is on about bottle 53 and has sung through each verse.

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 05:09 PM
Really? You don't think that removing significant OBP, discipline, speed, and extra base power from a team might have a negative result on other players? Before the trade, the offense was far more slump-proof. The presence of players in a lineup (particularly when they can work counts) does have an effect on how other players perform. Because your lineup is a dynamic system, sometimes you lose more than just individual performance when you mess with it.

I find it hard to believe Jr ever thought to himself, "I gotta step it up, Lopez isn't here any more". Same with Dunn or Hatteburg. I don't think they'd approach an at bat any different if they suddenly were playing for the Mud Hens so not having AK or Lopez wouldn't make a witt of difference to them, IMO.

I think it's reasonable to consider that Philips, Ross, Freel and EE started pressing thinking they had to pull some extra weight. They are younger and less experenced so I think you raise a valid point that the loss of AK and Lopez would have some psycological impact on them that would effect them at the plate.

If there was a direct cause and effect (ie, the trade triggered a collective slump) however, I would have thought it would have shown up much sooner if that were the case. .

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:10 PM
The good thing is that a competent GM should be able to trade for well-above replacement level outfield talent. But then, it would require GM competence.Actually it can be done. The problem is and this is what others don't want to acknowledge. The Reds have a surplus of exactly nothing to trade.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:10 PM
The good thing is that a competent GM should be able to trade for well-above replacement level outfield talent. But then, it would require GM competence.
...52 bottles of beer on the wall

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:10 PM
Lets bring on Hopper and Wise and I am sure they will get the 20/80 next year.

Maybe a lot of Kearns success how to do with the dynamic of the Reds offense.

Nah, I'll just come stick my head in the sand with everyone else.

Forget it. Bad typing

KittyDuran
09-17-2006, 05:11 PM
For those who were wondering why so little actual game facts are contained in game threads, it is because the score is evident by the nature of the posts and who is posting. Reading about the impact of "the trade" in a blowout game sounds like someone who has been singing 999 bottles of beer on the wall and is on about bottle 53 and has sung through each verse.:all_cohol :notworthy

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:12 PM
Actually it can be done. The problem is and this is what others don't want to acknowledge. The Reds have a surplus of exactly nothing to trade.

One could argue that there was nothing to trade at the beginning of the year.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:12 PM
If there was a direct cause and effect (ie, the trade triggered a collective slump) however, I would have thought it would have shown up much sooner if that were the case. .small sample sizes generally tell very little. The team dealt what little offensive depth they had and that ensured that if slumps came they would be on internal answers to the problem.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 05:13 PM
...52 bottles of beer on the wall

Nothing more interesting than someone who points out that people point out the shortcomings of their favorite team.

Why don't you offer something by way of discussion? That is, besides your bankrupt thesis that Wayne is doing what Marvin Lewis has done with the Bengals.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:14 PM
Lets bring on Hopper and Wise and I am sure they will get the 20/80 next year.

Maybe a lot of Kearns success how to do with the dynamic of the Reds offense.

Nah, I'll just come stick my head in the sand with everyone else.

Ummmm, red herring. Does anyone who does more than look up the score of the Reds and say "oh, lost again, Reds still suck, Who Dey!" think that the Reds are planning on Hopper and Wise being plan A next year for our outfield?

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:16 PM
One could argue that there was nothing to trade at the beginning of the year.If that was what Pena, Kearns and Lopez were than the Reds could use a big order of nothing. They each had their warts but they are productive players even if you don'e want to admit it. Pena actually brought something but he likely had the lowest value of the three. I am sure the Theo would have given the Reds a bit more for Kearns than Pena.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Nothing more interesting than someone who points out that people point out the shortcomings of their favorite team.

Why don't you offer something by way of discussion? That is, besides your bankrupt thesis that Wayne is doing what Marvin Lewis has done with the Bengals.I must have missed your post giving the reasons for your opinion. Let me go see what you had to say. And as if your repetitive droning on of the same points in the game threads is discussion.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:18 PM
Who is at .245/6/31/.776 since the trade. He hit .189 in August and he's hitting less than .250 with RISP.

His slump would fit in quite well with this ballclub.

You sorta' forgot the .372 OBP.

Post ASB:

Kearns: .372 OBP
Lopez: .378 OBP

And that's while playing half their games in a park that saps power. You don't think the Reds could use some of that rather than starting Dewayne Wise and Todd Hollandsworth in their Outfield during a last-gasp WC chase?

RedFanAlways1966
09-17-2006, 05:18 PM
The good thing is that a competent GM should be able to trade for well-above replacement level outfield talent. But then, it would require GM competence.

Trade what for this well above replacement level OF talent? Do share. You said it, now let's hear how it is done. And allow me to remind you that you do not have a Yanks, Red Sox or Mets budget to pull this off. Your competent answer is needed by those who do not have your crystal ball.

Perhaps the current GM should have rebuilt the entire minor league system in 6 months too? Do share.

I eagerly await competent answers since the above seems to suggest you know how it can done.

Thank you in advance for the answers! :)

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:19 PM
If that was what Pena, Kearns and Lopez were than the Reds could use a big order of nothing. They each had their warts but they are productive players even if you don'e want to admit it. Pena actually brought something but he likely had the lowest value of the three. I am sure the Theo would have given the Reds a bit more for Kearns than Pena.

How are you so sure of that?

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:19 PM
think that the Reds are planning on Hopper and Wise being plan A next year for our outfield?then why are they playing and not Chris "it's his time" Denorfia. They have no business on a malgue roster, ever. The fact that they are now raises the question if the management had any idea what below replacement level means.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:20 PM
How are you so sure of that?Kearns is at least a good offensive player and is light years beyond Pena in the field(as is every other OF on the planet).

Cyclone792
09-17-2006, 05:21 PM
I knew the offense would decrease (as shown clearly by Cyclone) due to the trade.

But you can't discount the horrific slumps of Dunn, Ross, Phillips, Hatteburg, EE, Freel, and Jr for sending the offense on a complete vacation.

And those slumps have zero to do with "the trade". Unless "the trade" had some sort of post traumatic stress effect that triggered a collective team slump well after the fact.

In the words of Bob Newhart, these slumps are best termed, "ill timed".

The problem is there's serious shortcomings for most of the guys in your above list ...

David Ross has a career minor league OPS of .782, and entered this season with a career major league OPS of .694. He's 29-years-old, and while it was nice to have a hot David Ross bat for three months earlier this season, it's much much more likely that the real David Ross is very similar to the David Ross we knew before the 2006 season. In fact, the post All-Star Break David Ross is a spitting image of the David Ross before 2006.

Brandon Phillips has a career minor league OPS of .757, and entered this season with a career major league OPS of .556. He's never met a pitch out of the strike zone that he didn't like, and he's always had a problem taking walks. This means he's going to be prone to eating up outs, especially when he struggles. He does provide a solid basestealing threat, and I believe he could be a plus defender at shortstop, but the Reds are in for real problems if they're depending on plus offense out of Brandon Phillips. Move him to shortstop, utilize him for good defensive value and prepare for offensive production to be maybe above average for a shortstop. Anything more should be considered a bonus and not likely to be continued over future seasons. If we get plus offensive production out of Phillips, that's great, but the rest of the lineup needs to be built to not depend on getting plus offensive production out of him.

Scott Hatteberg just flat out had a career year, and even after struggling recently, he's still having a career year. There should be no expectation on Hatteberg to continue having the year he's had, nor should there be an expectation for Hatteberg to repeat this career year in 2007. I liked the Hatteberg signing when it occurred, but I liked it in the sense that Hatteberg would be a solid backup first baseman and pinch hitter off the bench, a type of guy good for about 200 PAs over a season. Hatteberg entered this season with a .759 OPS, and that's the type of production one should expect out of him going forward. Anything more should be considered a bonus and not likely to continue over the long run. Again, a good backup first baseman, a nice pinch hitter off the bench, and as I considered early in the season, perhaps a good influence on our young hitters with his hitting preparation/studies. If you're relying on him for an OPS near .850, you're in trouble.

Ken Griffey, Jr. will be 37-years-old next season, and he has already sustained multiple leg injuries. He's an easy Hall of Famer, one of the top six or seven center fielders of all-time, but he's still going to be 37-years-old. The days of a 1.000 OPS and gold glove defense in center field are long gone. The days of a .900 OPS may even be long gone. Griffey has a .794 OPS this season, and he's lost a plethora of plate discipline in the last year and a half. He's old, his legs are shot, and the Reds need to prepare for this. They should have prepared for this prior to this season, but apparently they haven't. If they're counting on Griffey to be the player he was 10 years ago, they're in for real problems. They need to be realistic with what should be expected out of Griffey, and that realistic expecation is probably a sub .850 OPS, average range at best in a corner outfield spot and the high probability that he may only give us 400-450 plate appearances per season tops due to injury problems.

For all the struggles that Ryan Freel's had recently, all he did was simply return to his 2004-2005 production levels, and those are production levels that should be considered realistic out of him. He's a good defensive outfielder, but realistically we should only expect a .750 OPS out of him, and that's close to what we've gotten. If you're expecting more, there's going to be problems because you're not likely to get it.

Adam Dunn's had an off year compared to 2004 and 2005, but it hasn't been so much worse than those two years that it's ripped a hole in the offense. He'll still create 100 runs for us, and without that our offense would be an absolute joke.

Edwin Encarnacion's 2006 season has been better than anybody could ever imagine it being. I can not toss any blame on Encarnacion for his role in the offense.

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:24 PM
You sorta' forgot the .372 OBP.

Post ASB:

Kearns: .372 OBP
Lopez: .378 OBP

And that's while playing half their games in a park that saps power. You don't think the Reds could use some of that rather than starting Dewayne Wise and Todd Hollandsworth in their Outfield during a last-gasp WC chase?

Steel, I usually have no problem with the stats here, but they aren't telling the whole story again - you aren't taking in effect the type of outs - if they are slumping are the outs fly outs or ground outs? Are the flyouts potential sac flys, popups, lazyfly balls that would leave GABP that barely get out of the Infield at RFK. There's too much variables.

Would I rather have Kearns than Hollandsworth/Wise? Sure. You got me there. But, what I don't have fault with was that Wayne was trying when he made the deal for what he could get and the deal's done. To make it "The Point" is ludicrious, because we don't have the wayback machine.

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:24 PM
Kearns is at least a good offensive player and is light years beyond Pena in the field(as is every other OF on the planet).

Sometimes he is a good offensive player. Sometimes he is not very good at all. I think a lot of GM's might have seen that Kearns bat had slowed a great deal. I saw it. Different folks want different things. Who knows what player Epstein wanted more? Outside of speculating, I surely don't.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:24 PM
then why are they playing and not Chris "it's his time" Denorfia. They have no business on a malgue roster, ever. The fact that they are now raises the question if the management had any idea what below replacement level means.I think they've been getting the time against righties, like today, because Jr's hurt. It wouldn't be hard to argue that Denorfia has gotten jacked around, but he also hasn't made much of his opportunity and played his way into the lineup. He has looked overmatched from what I've seen.

Aronchis
09-17-2006, 05:25 PM
The problem is there's serious shortcomings for most of the guys in your above list ...

David Ross has a career minor league OPS of .782, and entered this season with a career major league OPS of .694. He's 29-years-old, and while it was nice to have a hot David Ross bat for three months earlier this season, it's much much more likely that the real David Ross is very similar to the David Ross we knew before the 2006 season. In fact, the post All-Star Break David Ross is a spitting image of the David Ross before 2006.

Brandon Phillips has a career minor league OPS of .757, and entered this season with a career major league OPS of .556. He's never met a pitch out of the strike zone that he didn't like, and he's always had a problem taking walks. This means he's going to be prone to eating up outs, especially when he struggles. He does provide a solid basestealing threat, and I believe he could be a plus defender at shortstop, but the Reds are in for real problems if they're depending on plus offense out of Brandon Phillips. Move him to shortstop, utilize him for good defensive value and prepare for offensive production to be maybe above average for a shortstop. Anything more should be considered a bonus and not likely to be continued over future seasons. If we get plus offensive production out of Phillips, that's great, but the rest of the lineup needs to be built to not depend on getting plus offensive production out of him.

Scott Hatteberg just flat out had a career year, and even after struggling recently, he's still having a career year. There should be no expectation on Hatteberg to continue having the year he's had, nor should there be an expectation for Hatteberg to repeat this career year in 2007. I liked the Hatteberg signing when it occurred, but I liked it in the sense that Hatteberg would be a solid backup first baseman and pinch hitter off the bench, a type of guy good for about 200 PAs over a season. Hatteberg entered this season with a .759 OPS, and that's the type of production one should expect out of him going forward. Anything more should be considered a bonus and not likely to continue over the long run. Again, a good backup first baseman, a nice pinch hitter off the bench, and as I considered early in the season, perhaps a good influence on our young hitters with his hitting preparation/studies. If you're relying on him for an OPS near .850, you're in trouble.

Ken Griffey, Jr. will be 37-years-old next season, and he has already sustained multiple leg injuries. He's an easy Hall of Famer, one of the top six or seven center fielders of all-time, but he's still going to be 37-years-old. The days of a 1.000 OPS and gold glove defense in center field are long gone. The days of a .900 OPS may even be long gone. Griffey has a .794 OPS this season, and he's lost a plethora of plate discipline in the last year and a half. He's old, his legs are shot, and the Reds need to prepare for this. They should have prepared for this prior to this season, but apparently they haven't. If they're counting on Griffey to be the player he was 10 years ago, they're in for real problems. They need to be realistic with what should be expected out of Griffey, and that realistic expecation is probably a sub .850 OPS, average range at best in a corner outfield spot and the high probability that he may only give us 400-450 plate appearances per season tops due to injury problems.

For all the struggles that Ryan Freel's had recently, all he did was simply return to his 2004-2005 production levels, and those are production levels that should be considered realistic out of him. He's a good defensive outfielder, but realistically we should only expect a .750 OPS out of him, and that's close to what we've gotten. If you're expecting more, there's going to be problems because you're not likely to get it.

Adam Dunn's had an off year compared to 2004 and 2005, but it hasn't been so much worse than those two years that it's ripped a hole in the offense. He'll still create 100 runs for us, and without that our offense would be an absolute joke.

Edwin Encarnacion's 2006 season has been better than anybody could ever imagine it being. I can not toss any blame on Encarnacion for his role in the offense.

Shortcoming, but the reality is, THEY were a big part of the Reds offensive surge in June and July. Lopez and Kearns chipped in, but they weren't firing the big guns(especially with Felipe's power outage this year). When they collapsed this August, thus the offense did.

BrooklynRedz
09-17-2006, 05:25 PM
The good thing is that a competent GM should be able to trade for well-above replacement level outfield talent. But then, it would require GM competence.

Uh-huh. And by that logic, I'm assuming you would consider Bowden a competent GM? He is, after all, the GM who assembled that OF.

I'm happy with the GM we have, thanks.

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:26 PM
To make it "The Point" is ludicrious, because we don't have the wayback machine.

Gee Mr. Peabody. Where did we put that thing?:D

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 05:26 PM
The problem is there's serious shortcomings for most of the guys in your above list ...

And those shortcomings exist independent of the trade.

While not having AK and Lopez makes these downturns worse (assuming they too wouldn't be slumping right now) you can't lay the entire blame for this horrific strech soley on the trade.

KittyDuran
09-17-2006, 05:26 PM
David Ross has a career minor league OPS of .782, and entered this season with a career major league OPS of .694. He's 29-years-old, and while it was nice to have a hot David Ross bat for three months earlier this season, it's much much more likely that the real David Ross is very similar to the David Ross we knew before the 2006 season. In fact, the post All-Star Break David Ross is a spitting image of the David Ross before 2006.
Not to nit-pick... but Ross does have an excuse for the post ASB drop-off - his foot injury. [or does that matter with stats?]

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:27 PM
Not to nit-pick... but Ross does have an excuse for the post ASB drop-off - his foot injury. [or does that matter with stats?]

Only if it is convenient.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:28 PM
The Reds biggest problem has been an unwillingness to burn it to the ground for the last five years(unlike Florida ). The problem they have now is that there is almost nothing to fuel the fire. A bleak forecast indeed.

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:28 PM
Gee Mr. Peabody. Where did we put that thing?:D

I thought you had it?? :confused: :dunno:


:D

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:28 PM
Sometimes he is a good offensive player. Sometimes he is not very good at all. I think a lot of GM's might have seen that Kearns bat had slowed a great deal. I saw it. Different folks want different things. Who knows what player Epstein wanted more? Outside of speculating, I surely don't.Randy, I lost hope that Kearns was ever going to be little more than an average OFer. His swing is just too long and the speed loss you noted had become evident. He will have to work his butt off to change that course, in my not so expert opinion.

Cyclone792
09-17-2006, 05:28 PM
Shortcoming, but the reality is, THEY were a big part of the Reds offensive surge in June and July.

And they were counted on to continue their unlikely success. That's a serious problem going forward that I'd like to avoid.

When you count on career years and over-your-head production for more than a few months, you're likely going to be falling down backwards when it becomes painfully obvious that over-your-head production was just that.

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:29 PM
I thought you had it?? :confused: :dunno:


:D

Sherman could never be trusted with that thing.:laugh:

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:29 PM
The Reds biggest problem has been an unwillingness to burn it to the ground for the last five years(unlike Florida ). The problem they have now is that there is almost nothing to fuel the fire. A bleak forecast indeed.

So, in your opinion, the last five years are the problem. Was Wayne K the general manager all that time?

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:29 PM
Not to nit-pick... but Ross does have an excuse for the post ASB drop-off - his foot injury. [or does that matter with stats?]and late 20 surges by catchers is not unheard of. However, it is hard to see how a 3rd catcher fits in next year with two already under contract. That is unless someone wants to argue that three catchers is a good thing.

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:29 PM
Randy, I lost hope that Kearns was ever going to be little more than an average OFer. His swing is just too long and the speed loss you noted had become evident. He will have to work his butt off to change that course, in my not so expert opinion.

The older he gets, the more fatal the flaw.

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:31 PM
The older he gets, the more fatal the flaw.

That's what they told you at the Reds Fantasy Camp, right?? :D

BrooklynRedz
09-17-2006, 05:31 PM
then why are they playing and not Chris "it's his time" Denorfia. They have no business on a malgue roster, ever. The fact that they are now raises the question if the management had any idea what below replacement level means.

It's what teams out of the chase do in September. They play the twenty-somethings to determine if there is anything there worth keeping around. Chris Denorfia is no mystery. The Reds know full-well what they've got. Wise and Hopper? Not so much.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 05:31 PM
Uh-huh. And by that logic, I'm assuming you would consider Bowden a competent GM? He is, after all, the GM who assembled that OF.

I'm happy with the GM we have, thanks.

So Bowden is the only choice I get; I can't point to Jocketty over the last 6 seasons finding great, cheap replacements (and dumping them at the right time) or what Melvin's done with his offense? Or what Atlanta does pretty routinely with stopgap guys?

I have no objection at all to you liking Krivsky, nor am I inimical to the idea that Bowden should remain in baseball purgatory, but I'd love to know why you are happy with Krivsky--and please don't just point to his pre-July 1 moves because it's common knowledge that all those positive moves have been countervailed by the post-July 1 moves. Please just tell me, in as clear a language as possible, what is it about Wayne's philosophy/method that you are happy with?

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:32 PM
I find it hard to believe Jr ever thought to himself, "I gotta step it up, Lopez isn't here any more". Same with Dunn or Hatteburg. I don't think they'd approach an at bat any different if they suddenly were playing for the Mud Hens so not having AK or Lopez wouldn't make a witt of difference to them, IMO.

I don't think you understand my meaning. Regardless of the "try" factor, lineup dynamics change when you remove two cogs like Lopez and Kearns. Players "pressing" was the least of my concern. Removing two guys who worked the snot out of pitchers, produced high OBP totals (resulting in additional high-quality opportunity for the hitters behind them), and- in Lopez' case- speed changes lineup dynamics in addition to helping slump-proof the team.


I think it's reasonable to consider that Ross, Freel and EE started pressing thinking they had to pull some extra weight. They are younger and less experenced so I think you raise a valid point that the loss of AK and Lopez would have some psycological impact on them that would effect them at the plate.

David Ross is 29 and Ryan Freel is 30. If anyone started pressing, I'd suggest that it might have been Dunn- particularly after Griffey went down. But, again, the psychological impact of the trade is far lower on the totem pole than how it affected the performance dynamics of the lineup over time.


If there was a direct cause and effect (ie, the trade triggered a collective slump) however, I would have thought it would have shown up much sooner if that were the case. .

What I'm saying is that the Reds- with players like Kearns and Lopez- would be less prone to long-term collective slumps because of the nature of their talents (particularly their ability to work pitchers and plate discipline). The team didn't have to go into a collective slump immediately after the trade, but the team maintaining such performance over time is directly related to a reduction in plate discipline and working counts. It was part and parcel to the offensive dynamic last year as well as early on this year. A team can take that hit if it receives a bigger additional boost somewhere else, but that wasn't going to happen even if both RP's acquired performed up to their pre-ASB level. In short, it was a value loss even if Bray and Majewski pitched well. That's enough to make the swap inexcusable on the day of the deal. What's happened since has just further buried it in the litterbox.

RBA
09-17-2006, 05:32 PM
The Kearns/Lopez trade for crap is old news. Simply put, Wayne K. got owned by Bowden.

Time to move on.

We need some Outfield bats and Chris Denorfia will never be more than a 4th Outfielder.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:33 PM
So, in your opinion, the last five years are the problem. Was Wayne K the general manager all that time?Nope, overall he just didn't help the long term situation and maybe with RCast and "win now" it was not possible but I have yet to see a GM accurately assess the state of the organization and act accordingly. WK started out fine until he could not resist win now and the disaster of a trade that followed.

RollyInRaleigh
09-17-2006, 05:34 PM
That's what they told you at the Reds Fantasy Camp, right?? :D

Absolutely. Lots of long swings there. Fortunately, I was taught to swing the bat the right way, by pulling the knob to the ball and keeping my hands inside. Unfortunately, when you get older, even when you do it correctly, it still becomes a problem.;) In Kearns case, it just takes the paycheck out of his pocket. The loooonnnnggg swing is not a good thing.

RedFanAlways1966
09-17-2006, 05:34 PM
If that was what Pena, Kearns and Lopez were than the Reds could use a big order of nothing. They each had their warts but they are productive players even if you don'e want to admit it. Pena actually brought something but he likely had the lowest value of the three. I am sure the Theo would have given the Reds a bit more for Kearns than Pena.

I guess it is common knowledge who Krivsky talked to and what offers were made? Or perhaps it is common knowledge that he jumped at the first offers he received? Personal friends w/ Theo or just taking a stab w/ that comment?

The pitching numbers of the REDS in the last 5-7 years should be analyzed. I saw that the REDS avg. 5.03 runs/game last year. The differences to start this year were Ross (injured LaRue) and Hatteberg (traded Casey). Not sure if Ross or Hatte were worse than last year's LaRue and Casey. Oh, before I forget, the REDS gave up 5.45 runs/game last year. If anyone cares the drop in both RS-RA have been greater for less runs allowed than runs scored. Still giving up more than allowing, but the gap has closed compared to last year.

How soon we forget that this team has outperformed expectations at the start of the year. One more win means a better record than last year. I hope they can do this with 13 games remaining. Nothing to brag about, but an improvement all the same. I guess I am admitting that I did not expect a miracle (making the postseason) this year.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:35 PM
The Kearns/Lopez trade for crap is old news. Simply put, Wayne K. got owned by Bowden.

Time to move on.

We need some Outfield bats and Chris Denorfia will never be more than a 4th Outfielder.I am not ready to give up yet on Denorfia(lot better number in the minors than Freel) but it sure seems like Narron has.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:36 PM
BTW, the Reds still have many holes to fill that will probably have to come from outside the organization. There is still only two legitimate major league pitchers in the rotation and one of them is showing signs of wear already. The bullpen is still a mess, but I do think they might be able to sort out some good arms once they get a chance to step back and assess instead of crisis management. The outfield could have three different players in it next year and I would not be disappointed. If anyone is really necessary out there, I'd keep Freel. Otherwise, we need four outfielders. We need a 2bman or a SS, depending on where Phillips plays.

And there is still no one really ready in the minors other than giving a few guys off the Chatty pitching staff a chance to make the team. If they want to win next year, which this year tells me they do, they are going to have to spend some money this winter.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:37 PM
How soon we forget that this team has outperformed expectations at the start of the year. One more win means a better record than last year. I hope they can do this with 13 games remaining. Nothing to brag about, but an improvement all the same. I guess I am admitting that I did not expect a miracle (making the postseason) this year.but can a lot of individuals(Arroyo, Ross, Phillips, Hatty, Aurilia) responsible for that success be counted to repeat 2006? If they cannot and they just had career seasons the Reds have not had real progress but rather just had some momentary good fortune unlikely to be repeated.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:39 PM
Steel, I usually have no problem with the stats here, but they aren't telling the whole story again - you aren't taking in effect the type of outs - if they are slumping are the outs fly outs or ground outs? Are the flyouts potential sac flys, popups, lazyfly balls that would leave GABP that barely get out of the Infield at RFK. There's too much variables.

As soon as Out type actually matters, I'll consider it. But it doesn't, so I won't.


Would I rather have Kearns than Hollandsworth/Wise? Sure. You got me there. But, what I don't have fault with was that Wayne was trying when he made the deal for what he could get and the deal's done. To make it "The Point" is ludicrious, because we don't have the wayback machine.

I don't care at all what Wayne Krivsky's intent was. I care about behavior. Well-intentioned bad risks aren't any better than bad risks fueled by poor intentions. That the trade was well-intentioned doesn't mean a thing.

Cyclone792
09-17-2006, 05:39 PM
We need some Outfield bats and Chris Denorfia will never be more than a 4th Outfielder.

Chris Denorfia's value to the team is saving runs using his legs and glove in center field, saving runs that we're allowing because our current regular center fielder has been the worst defensive center fielder in baseball for two years now.

I'd sure like to know what type of defensive system the Reds are using, if they even have one at all. I really don't think most people understand the value of a center fielder who can save 10-15 runs a year over even an average center fielder, much less save 30 runs a year over a very poor center fielder.

RedFanAlways1966
09-17-2006, 05:42 PM
but can a lot of individuals(Arroyo, Ross, Phillips, Hatty, Aurilia) responsible for that success be counted to repeat 2006? If they cannot and they just had career seasons the Reds have not had real progress but rather just had some momentary good fortune unlikely to be repeated.

Not sure (don't have others crystal ball!). :)

I do not disagree and it may be the case. Aurilia's career year was probably in 2001(?) for the Giants. but I understand your point. And the same might be argued about Felipe Lopez in 2005.

Falls City Beer
09-17-2006, 05:43 PM
BTW, the Reds still have many holes to fill that will probably have to come from outside the organization. There is still only two legitimate major league pitchers in the rotation and one of them is showing signs of wear already. The bullpen is still a mess, but I do think they might be able to sort out some good arms once they get a chance to step back and assess instead of crisis management. The outfield could have three different players in it next year and I would not be disappointed. If anyone is really necessary out there, I'd keep Freel. Otherwise, we need four outfielders. We need a 2bman or a SS, depending on where Phillips plays.

And there is still no one really ready in the minors other than giving a few guys off the Chatty pitching staff a chance to make the team. If they want to win next year, which this year tells me they do, they are going to have to spend some money this winter.

At least you understand the magnitude of the problem. That's refreshing. But then perhaps you'll be able to explain why the GM in eight months has done nothing neither to rectify the situation nor to lay the groundwork for future deals.

If nothing else, I'd like to have seen something else face Krivsky as offseason obstacles than the same things he faced at the outset of his tenure.

flyer85
09-17-2006, 05:43 PM
Well-intentioned bad risks aren't any better than bad risks fueled by poor intentions. to a segment of the population intentions are really all that matters (I am not pointing fingers at anyone on this board). It is a current cultural problems where feelings/intentions trump actual results.

I am every bit as troubled by the fact that our GM looked at Cormier and actually thought he was a good/valuable pitcher. I am still as troubled by that than anything else that has happened (although Majik is a close second).

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:45 PM
Nothing more interesting than someone who points out that people point out the shortcomings of their favorite team.

Why don't you offer something by way of discussion? That is, besides your bankrupt thesis that Wayne is doing what Marvin Lewis has done with the Bengals.Well, I went and looked for your rebuttal, yet there was none. I guess I'll just have to take your opinion for what its worth.

Cyclone792
09-17-2006, 05:46 PM
but can a lot of individuals(Arroyo, Ross, Phillips, Hatty, Aurilia) responsible for that success be counted to repeat 2006? If they cannot and they just had career seasons the Reds have not had real progress but rather just had some momentary good fortune unlikely to be repeated.

A reasonable expectation for Bronson Arroyo in 2007 should be around 200 innings pitched and a 4.00 ERA. Unfortunately, if that's what he actually does then the torches and pitchforks crowd will be storming the GABP gates to go after Arroyo, but that's really what the reasonable expectation should be.

The Reds would do themselves a huge favor if they prepared for the realistic Arroyo performance in 2007, but they'll likely prepare for the 3.20 ERA again and that will be a miscalculation.

Heath
09-17-2006, 05:46 PM
So Bowden is the only choice I get; I can't point to Jocketty over the last 6 seasons finding great, cheap replacements (and dumping them at the right time) or what Melvin's done with his offense? Or what Atlanta does pretty routinely with stopgap guys?

I have no objection at all to you liking Krivsky, nor am I inimical to the idea that Bowden should remain in baseball purgatory, but I'd love to know why you are happy with Krivsky--and please don't just point to his pre-July 1 moves because it's common knowledge that all those positive moves have been countervailed by the post-July 1 moves. Please just tell me, in as clear a language as possible, what is it about Wayne's philosophy/method that you are happy with?

Let me follow the logic of your pretense.

Walt Jocketty's been a GM of a major league baseball team in St. Louis since 1995. Before that he worked in other capacities of baseball including under Roland Hemond. So he has 10 years of GM experience.

John Scherholtz was the KC GM and has spent the last 15 years as GM of the Braves.

Wayne Krivsky, an assistant GM, has been a GM for 8 months. Before that he spent considerable time as an Ass't GM.

Walt Jocketty had to fire Joe Torre. John Scherholtz couldn't GM out of a paper bag (westofyou has the entire quote). Both have been on the hotseat.

So the Reds, when needing a General Manager, just should walk over and ask the Cardinals to hire Walt Jocketty. Or, walk over to the Braves and hire Scherholtz.

Both of your above examples early had things that did not work out. Then the Cardinals gutted out a '96 division title and got Mark McGuire (probably since LaRussa was in there) in '97.

Scherholtz had Ted Turner's money and a nice system picked out by Bobby Cox in the mid 90's and had healthy players through and through for 14 years.

Krivsky had 8 years with Terry Ryan at Minnesota, where 5 of those years were winning seasons and 3 division titles. Now, he's supposed to be compared to Jocketty and Scherholtz after 8 months on the job.

We'd all love to drive Cadillacs, but some only can drive Chevrolets.

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 05:47 PM
The team didn't have to go into a collective slump immediately after the trade, but the team maintaining such performance over time is directly related to a reduction in plate discipline and working counts.

Not having AK and Lopez here to work the counts certinally hurts the offensive dynamic. No argument there from me.

But I don't think AK/Lopez not being here has anything to do with Ross & Freel regressing to the mean, Jr starting to show his age (apparently) and Philips being....well...Philips. It has nothing to do with Hatteburg being 36 and cooling off from a carear year. I'd say it also has nothing to do with pitchers adjusting to EE.

I guess my point is that this offensive collapse has a number of reasons and can't soley be laid at the simplistic feet of "the trade".

BrooklynRedz
09-17-2006, 05:52 PM
So Bowden is the only choice I get; I can't point to Jocketty over the last 6 seasons finding great, cheap replacements (and dumping them at the right time) or what Melvin's done with his offense? Or what Atlanta does pretty routinely with stopgap guys?

I have no objection at all to you liking Krivsky, nor am I inimical to the idea that Bowden should remain in baseball purgatory, but I'd love to know why you are happy with Krivsky--and please don't just point to his pre-July 1 moves because it's common knowledge that all those positive moves have been countervailed by the post-July 1 moves. Please just tell me, in as clear a language as possible, what is it about Wayne's philosophy/method that you are happy with?

Of course Bowden isn't your only choice (how cruel would THAT be? :evil: ).

But of the GMs you mentioned, Krivsky strikes me more in their mold of improving the major league roster at any opportunity without risking the fruits of the minor league system in the process.

That said, I would say that it's entirely unfair to judge Krivsky (possitively or negatively) based on the performance thus far. Given the timing of his hiring and the circumstances involved (new owner with a stick in his craw to compete pronto!), we've seen only the hints of the GM Krivsky (I believe) can be. That's not to give the guy a pass on a controversial trade. However, you have to appreciate the position he was in: new gm with an unlikely chance to compete in the first season of new ownership. His evaluations led him to believe to believe the removal of Kearns and Lopez from the offense would be minor compared to the improved bullpen. He thought the move would help the club win. Today and tomorrow. More dollars for the offseason. A couple good arms still a few years away from arbitration. It didn't work out as planned.

Even in light of the way the trade has turned out and slumping offense and the September collapse, Krivsky did everything he could to keep this team in contention. And he did it without touching what has become a promising farm system. And under his changes, we've seen the immediate uptick in the system. He's got a Billings squad that was lights out. Does that translate to the major league club? Not yet. But when you inherit an organization that has been left to rot for 20 years, you have a long way to go. It's just the nature of the game.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:53 PM
How soon we forget that this team has outperformed expectations at the start of the year.

I've heard that a number of times, yet I don't really see how the Reds have outperformed expectations. The board collectively felt the Reds would finish the season with around 77-78 Wins (yes, I took every prediction from gonelong's thread and averaged them). I felt they'd finish with 78 Wins based on projected Run Diff when applied to Pythag. If the Reds continue along their current path, that's going to be about spot-on.

At the ASB, the Reds had a real opportunity to make up some serious Run Diff ground while the Cards were also overperforming their Pythag and, thus, projected to regress in the second half. At that point, Krivsky had an obvious charge- improve the Run Differential. Instead, he chose to impact it negatively while attempting to "fix" the bullpen.

Problem is that even if he'd have fixed the pen, it didn't project to produce the Run Diff impact necessary to catch a team that was nigh-destined to play no better than .500 ball for the rest of the year. The Reds had a huge window of opportunity and entirely squandered it- along with many of their remaining resources. There was a chance for the Reds to actually outperform their expectations but it went up in smoke and virtually every move after that was an effort to lessen the damage.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:54 PM
At least you understand the magnitude of the problem. That's refreshing. But then perhaps you'll be able to explain why the GM in eight months has done nothing neither to rectify the situation nor to lay the groundwork for future deals.

If nothing else, I'd like to have seen something else face Krivsky as offseason obstacles than the same things he faced at the outset of his tenure.

Last year we had one qualified major leaguer in the rotation. He found another one with an excess in the outfield. If he turns over the outfield, which really is not a hard area to overhaul in a short amount of time, I would imagine he can pry away some rotation help for Dunn. He also has some money to spend, which is something that "lays the groundwork for future deals."

Ltlabner
09-17-2006, 05:55 PM
But then perhaps you'll be able to explain why the GM in eight months has done nothing neither to rectify the situation nor to lay the groundwork for future deals.

Because those 8 months were during the season. A time when trades are historically harder to make and "more expensive". The number of available impact players are less and the price is astronomically more than during the offseason.

And I don't agree with your premise that he's done "nothing" so I woln't attempt to argue that with you.

traderumor
09-17-2006, 05:57 PM
I've heard that a number of times, yet I don't really see how the Reds have outperformed expectations. The board collectively felt the Reds would finish the season with around 77-78 Wins (yes, I took every prediction from gonelong's thread and averaged them). I felt they'd finish with 78 Wins based on projected Run Diff when applied to Pythag. If the Reds continue along their current path, that's going to be about spot-on.

At the ASB, the Reds had a real opportunity to make up some serious Run Diff ground while the Cards were also overperforming their Pythag and, thus, projected to regress in the second half. At that point, Krivsky had an obvious charge- improve the Run Differential. Instead, he chose to impact it negatively while attempting to "fix" the bullpen.

Problem is that even if he'd have fixed the pen, it didn't project to produce the Run Diff impact necessary to catch a team that was nigh-destined to play no better than .500 ball for the rest of the year. The Reds had a huge window of opportunity and entirely squandered it- along with many of their remaining resources. There was a chance for the Reds to actually outperform their expectations but it went up in smoke and virtually every move after that was an effort to lessen the damage.

Thank you for that fine forensic analysis, Mr. Bodene.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 05:58 PM
Not having AK and Lopez here to work the counts certinally hurts the offensive dynamic. No argument there from me.

But I don't think AK/Lopez not being here has anything to do with Ross & Freel regressing to the mean, Jr starting to show his age (apparently) and Philips being....well...Philips. It has nothing to do with Hatteburg being 36 and cooling off from a carear year. I'd say it also has nothing to do with pitchers adjusting to EE.

I guess my point is that this offensive collapse has a number of reasons and can't soley be laid at the simplistic feet of "the trade".

I don't think anyone has attempted to lay the current offensive issues "solely" at the feet of that trade. But it did end up impacting the team more than folks thought at the time of the trade. And one reason for that was, as you cited, that the Reds were running out a number of players who were most likely going to regress to the mean in the second half. But that's another "effect" component of the deal- when the only way to effectively minimize the impact of losing two above-average offensive players is to rely on the continued overachievement of others, that's a conceptual issue that does tie in to the trade we're talking about.

SteelSD
09-17-2006, 06:02 PM
Thank you for that fine forensic analysis, Mr. Bodene.

I'd hope that's a statement of agreement because if you couldn't see where the opportunity was at that point in the season, there's really not a lot more I can say.

Chip R
09-17-2006, 06:07 PM
The Reds biggest problem has been an unwillingness to burn it to the ground for the last five years(unlike Florida ). The problem they have now is that there is almost nothing to fuel the fire. A bleak forecast indeed.

The difference is that in Miami, if they do that, no one cares because no one really cares when they have a decent record. Ownership is looking for any place to move the team. Gutting the team, building it up, it doesn't matter in South Florida. Try that here and it will be a different story all together. Plus, in Miami, they actually have people working for the Marlins who can evaluate young talent and develop it. Just burning it to the ground doesn't mean something will rise from it.

Heath
09-17-2006, 06:12 PM
I don't think in the history of this franchise has there ever been a time of burning it down and rebuilding it. There are too many expectations of the community and the pride of history to leave a carcass.

The Reds are teetering on the fine line of rebuilding and trying to contend all at the same time.

Red in Chicago
09-17-2006, 06:13 PM
Chris Denorfia's value to the team is saving runs using his legs and glove in center field, saving runs that we're allowing because our current regular center fielder has been the worst defensive center fielder in baseball for two years now.

I'd sure like to know what type of defensive system the Reds are using, if they even have one at all. I really don't think most people understand the value of a center fielder who can save 10-15 runs a year over even an average center fielder, much less save 30 runs a year over a very poor center fielder.

saving 10 - 15 runs a year translates into approximately how many wins? just curious if an assumption can be made...

Heath
09-17-2006, 06:16 PM
Nope, overall he just didn't help the long term situation and maybe with RCast and "win now" it was not possible but I have yet to see a GM accurately assess the state of the organization and act accordingly. WK started out fine until he could not resist win now and the disaster of a trade that followed.

The team was in a pennant race in an overall down year in the NL. There might have more complaints that no trade was made.

I'd like to know what trades could have worked. I've never seen any other suggestions that could have been made to improve the club .

WVRedsFan
09-17-2006, 06:28 PM
Was this a game thread?

I'm not criticizing, you understand. It's just that bad.

As most everyone knows, I agree with Steel and Cyclone about "the trade." We'll still be debating it next year at this time and probably for many years. It, IMHO, is the worst trade by a Reds GM since 1965 (and you all know what happened then). But, there were many poor moves by Krivsky this season. Cormier is one. What a waste and even giving him an extention before seeing him pitch. And you can name the other acquisitions for players to be named later too. Wise, Hollandsworth, Johnson, Kim, Michalak, and Hopper. How have they helped?

I'm not advocating firing Krivsky just yet, but the good (Arroyo, Lohse, ED Eddie, Phillips, etc) does not measure up to the bad moves. If he was panicking and throwing stuff at the wall to see if it will stick, the middle of a pennant race was not the time to do it. I question his judgement and his knowledge of baseball players. That also applies to extending a manager who has won at nothing in his career and continues to show why. He'd better have a monster off-season and 2007 or RCast will be looking at someone else.

Cyclone792
09-17-2006, 06:29 PM
saving 10 - 15 runs a year translates into approximately how many wins? just curious if an assumption can be made...

The difference between Denorfia and an average defensive center fielder would be a net gain of about one win due to center field defense. The difference between Denorfia and a Griffey in center field would be a net gain of nearly three wins due to center field defense.

Chip R
09-17-2006, 06:41 PM
I don't think in the history of this franchise has there ever been a time of burning it down and rebuilding it. There are too many expectations of the community and the pride of history to leave a carcass.

The Reds are teetering on the fine line of rebuilding and trying to contend all at the same time.

Are you saying that you can't rebuild and contend at the same time?

Heath
09-17-2006, 06:45 PM
Are you saying that you can't rebuild and contend at the same time?

I think it can be done, its just an effort that takes time and patience and aggressiveness all at the same time.

Kinda like chewing gum, bouncing a basketball, and snapping your fingers all at the same time.

Heath
09-17-2006, 06:47 PM
That also applies to extending a manager who has won at nothing in his career and continues to show why. He'd better have a monster off-season and 2007 or RCast will be looking at someone else.

I'll agree that the Narron extension was about a bonehead move as one could make, I can understand why he did it, but the Reds were winning in SPITE of Narron.

redsfanmia
09-17-2006, 07:32 PM
I don't think in the history of this franchise has there ever been a time of burning it down and rebuilding it. There are too many expectations of the community and the pride of history to leave a carcass.

The Reds are teetering on the fine line of rebuilding and trying to contend all at the same time.

Does 1982 and 1983 ring a bell?

RedFanAlways1966
09-17-2006, 07:51 PM
I've heard that a number of times, yet I don't really see how the Reds have outperformed expectations. The board collectively felt the Reds would finish the season with around 77-78 Wins (yes, I took every prediction from gonelong's thread and averaged them). I felt they'd finish with 78 Wins based on projected Run Diff when applied to Pythag. If the Reds continue along their current path, that's going to be about spot-on.

Steel... although I was not clear on it, I meant the so-called experts on MLB (writers, analysts, etc). It would make sense that REDS diehards, which most of us are, would tend to lean towards a better season than the so-called experts. Might prove, when it all ends this year, that RZ is better than the so-called experts (despite some that might be a bit over-optimistic!).

Anyhow it can be said that most experts picked 5th or 6th place in the NL Central for the REDS. I didn't read all the predictions, so there may be some that did not (some of you guys read a lot more things than myself). I checked the records of all teams that finished 5th and 6th in the NL Central since 2003. Those teams and their respective records were:

2003: REDS 69-93 ; Brewers 68-94.
2004: Pirates 72-89 ; Brewers 67-94.
2005: REDS 73-89 ; Pirates 67-95.
>> The average record of the above six teams is 69-92.

Of course there is no way to figure these things or trust the so-called experts. I for one trust the opinions of some here more than any of those so-called experts. And there are so many variables that differ from year-to-year that it is far from scientific.

I guess a REDS & BENGALS fan like me (been lots of bad times in those years) is always lookin' for the bright side. Lord help me! :)

Heath
09-17-2006, 08:01 PM
Does 1982 and 1983 ring a bell?

1982 and 1983 weren't rebuidling years - it was simply poor farm system drafts, the inability to attact or use free-agency, while holding onto Concepcion and Bench and Driessen.

The trades of Seaver, Foster, & Griffey brought absolutely nothing in return.

Dick Wagner was going to show the world that Bob Howsam 1968 was right. Boy, did he show them.

Those Reds were also owned by the Williams Brothers who believed the Carl Lindner way of operating a baseball club.

GAC
09-17-2006, 08:04 PM
I was glad to hear that Milton is A-OK and was ready to go for this one. :lol:

Heath
09-17-2006, 08:05 PM
I was glad to hear that Milton is A-OK and was ready to go for this one. :lol:

Unlike our Browns, huh, GAC. Ugh.

GAC
09-17-2006, 08:34 PM
Unlike our Browns, huh, GAC. Ugh.

We ain't seen ugly yet. Wait till next week. ;)

bottom_feeder
09-17-2006, 10:24 PM
The board collectively felt the Reds would finish the season with around 77-78 Wins (yes, I took every prediction from gonelong's thread and averaged them)..

:clap: That's got to be the best effort of the year to prove a point. Amazing. Great idea to get the true expectations of this year.

westofyou
09-18-2006, 01:29 PM
Funny how this team is no better on September 17th than they were on February 8th.
Everybody funny... now you funny too. 15 months ago... 06-26-2005... you telegraphed it, albeit with a different angle.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=759517&postcount=9


Originally Posted by Krusty
You have to wonder where the Reds would be right now if Krivsky was the Reds GM instead of O'Brien?


Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

Competing for the Central title.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=759524&postcount=12


Originally Posted by pedro
I doubt it too. I just don't see what he could have done to impove pitching enough to compete. OTOH, I bet the Reds would be much better off than they are now, hard to see how they couldn't be.

Originally Posted by Falls City Beer

A calendar year and a half is a long time. For the record, I didn't say "winning" the Central Division.

RollyInRaleigh
09-18-2006, 02:30 PM
Gotta watch what you say around these parts.:laugh:

RedFanAlways1966
09-18-2006, 02:51 PM
Everybody funny... now you funny too. 15 months ago... 06-26-2005... you telegraphed it, albeit with a different angle.

In the name of holy hypocrisy!! Wow. When does the post-of-the-year voting begin around here?!? :thumbup:

Heath
09-18-2006, 05:03 PM
In the name of holy hypocrisy!! Wow. When does the post-of-the-year voting begin around here?!? :thumbup:

Be careful with the veiled personal attacks, redfanalways, or the hall monitor will get you.

:D

Ow.

Falls City Beer
09-18-2006, 06:01 PM
Everybody funny... now you funny too. 15 months ago... 06-26-2005... you telegraphed it, albeit with a different angle.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=759517&postcount=9





http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=759524&postcount=12

I fail to see the hypocrisy. They "competed" in the Central up till mid-September.

They didn't "win" the Central?

Where am I off the mark?

Please show me.

I KNEW this would be a weakened Central, and it was; no mystery there they could "compete" in it, or that Wayne isn't better than O'Brien (come on, I'd be better than O'Brien).

In your ceaseless effort to prove that opinions change, woy, you just proved that I was incredibly prescient. Bully for you.

westofyou
09-18-2006, 06:12 PM
In your ceaseless effort to prove that opinions change, woy, you just proved that I was incredibly prescient. Bully for you.

I'm not out to prove anything, actually I just stumbled on it and found it ironic.

Bully for me, I guess... I'm easily amused.

However, baseball is a hard game and building a baseball team isn't an out of the box process or something whose burden is unencumbered by one spin around the block in the new GM's desk, you're right opinions do change, but building a baseball team is a much more arduous then most want to admit and that unlike opinions, is not changing anytime soon.

Ltlabner
09-18-2006, 06:55 PM
He'd better have a monster off-season and 2007 or RCast will be looking at someone else.

He better have a monster off-season or some folks on Redszone will be looking at someone else. I highly doubt BC would fire Krivsky if the offseason doesn't measure up to whatever standard you might impose on him.