Dunn wants to finish strong

[CaiGuy]

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060916&content_id=1665740&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

From Reds.com:


CHICAGO -- Obviously, Reds left fielder Adam Dunn doesn't want to end his season scuffling at the plate.
Following an 0-for-3 game in Saturday's 4-0 loss to the Cubs, Dunn was hitless in his last 13 at-bats and batting .171 since Aug. 1. That included a .206 mark (7-for-34) with runners in scoring position.

"I definitely want to finish on a high note," Dunn said before Saturday's game. He is batting .237 with 40 home runs and 91 RBIs overall.

Wrigley Field would be a likely spot for Dunn to snap out of it. He has hit 17 home runs at the ballpark since 2001, the most by a Cubs opponent. But the 26-year-old felt it would take more than a favorable stadium for him to improve.

"There are a lot of things I'm doing wrong that are contributing to why I stink," Dunn said.

One issue bothering the lefty swinging Dunn has been getting out in front with his right foot instead of staying back on the ball.

"I've watched lots of tape, go to the cage and hit a lot," Dunn said. "I've just gotten into a bad habit and I need to get out of it. If I stay back, I'll be fine."

Looks like he is trying hard to break out of it.

Is he truly lazy?

[joshnky]

I bet he is lying. All he really does is eat and play golf. ;)

[flyer85]

I bet he is lying. All he really does is eat and play golf. ;)don't forget the video games and fishing

[TeamBoone]

Saturday, September 16, 2006

Dunn comes to ballpark ready to play
Hal McCoy / DaytonDailyNews



Question: I never read about Adam Dunn taking extra hitting or fielding, nor does he show up early for spring training in top physical condition. Does that mean he is content to be a mediocre player, or has the ghost of Barry Larkin infiltrated the Reds clubhouse? — Dave, Miamisburg/Centerville/Beavercreek

Answer: I heard you were a remedial reader. It often has been written that Dunn takes early batting practice, but you have to pick up a newspaper to read it. Out of shape? The guy is 6-foot-6, 275 pounds and has no fat on his body. I've heard some talk-show geeks say the same thing. Tell it to his face, but wear a football helmet when you do it. Why don't you give it a rest on Larkin. The guy was in better shape at 40 than most guys at 20. And even though he knew there was a chance young players might take his job, he always helped young infielders. And nobody took his job away.


Q: If Adam Dunn didn't know that Jake Peavy was pitching when Dunn showed up at the clubhouse that day, as you wrote, doesn't that indicate that Dunn does not prepare very well? — Jack, Fairborn

A: He asked that very early in the afternoon. The Reds play a video of that day's opposing pitcher on the clubhouse televisions, and I have often spotted Dunn watching them, more so than most playersHow else can you prepare — dream about the opposing pitcher the night before? . (With Peavy it would be a nightmare for the Reds.) If you can't prepare for a pitcher in five hours before a game, which is when most players arrive at the park, you'd be better off staying home, which might be a good idea for the Reds when Peavy pitches.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2006/09/16/ddn091706askhalweb.html

[Will M]

his trade value will be higher :thumbup:

[osuceltic]

Out of shape? The guy is 6-foot-6, 275 pounds and has no fat on his body.

See, I can't take anything else in Hal's answers seriously after this. No fat??? We get it Hal. You like Adam. He's a good old boy who likes fishin' and huntin' ... but please don't try to tell me he "has no fat on his body."

[westofyou]

Speaking of finishing, Junior has only accumulated 7.4% of his total Reds at bats in the month of September, Dunn on the other hand has played more games in the past 3 years than every player in the National League.

[RedFanAlways1966]

See! See! This proves it. DUNN IS LAZY! Using the same rationale as I read on here sometimes, it is obvious with this latest statement.

"I definitely want to finish on a high note." Good lord... a very lazy way of talking.

High note? Two 4-letter words... how lazy. He could have been less lazy and used one longer word or a combo of longer words. Verbal laziness is not acceptable. How about: mighty note (6 letters & 4 letters), convincing fashion (two words, 10 & 7 letters), vigorously (10 letters).

Finish? How about "carry through"... or even "conclude".

Don't blame me... blame Dunn for this obvious display of verbal laziness.

[Team Clark]

See, I can't take anything else in Hal's answers seriously after this. No fat??? We get it Hal. You like Adam. He's a good old boy who likes fishin' and huntin' ... but please don't try to tell me he "has no fat on his body."

I read that article and the one today. Whew! I didn't even know where to start. So I just sit here quiet. It doesn't matter anymore. There are two camps and you just have to pick one.... Sad.

[Heath]

I read that article and the one today. Whew! I didn't even know where to start. So I just sit here quiet. It doesn't matter anymore. There are two camps and you just have to pick one.... Sad.

As an experienced major league employee of a front office, who understands advance scouting and statistical analysis of major league baseball players, here are two questions.

What camp do you belong to, TC?

How would other major league teams view Adam Dunn?

[EricF]

See! See! This proves it. DUNN IS LAZY! Using the same rationale as I read on here sometimes, it is obvious with this latest statement.

"I definitely want to finish on a high note." Good lord... a very lazy way of talking.

High note? Two 4-letter words... how lazy. He could have been less lazy and used one longer word or a combo of longer words. Verbal laziness is not acceptable. How about: mighty note (6 letters & 4 letters), convincing fashion (two words, 10 & 7 letters), vigorously (10 letters).

Finish? How about "carry through"... or even "conclude".

Don't blame me... blame Dunn for this obvious display of verbal laziness.

Come on, Red Fan Always! When has the average baseball player been known for a great command of the English language? After playing all out for a game and getting peppered with questions from media who earn their living with language, Dunn is probably just getting his message across with the most economy he can.

And you criticize him for using two four-letter words to express himself? To quote you, "Good lord."

[JEA]

This is a nice tidbit, but I'm guessing you could ask 30 guys how they'd like to finish the season, and 30 guys would say they wanted to finish the same way Dunn does.

This story (and I use that term uselessly) "defends" the notion that Dunn is a hard worker as much as the "extra BP wouldn't help" quote "proved" he is lazy.

Both sides of this argument read way, way too far into these empty generic quotes.

Thinking Dunn doesn't mind losing is dumb. But going out of your way to prove these people wrong is even dumber.

Can we create a third side to this infamous Dunn argument? It'll be the side that thinks both the other sides are nuts for wasting their time. :help:

[Matt700wlw]

He couldn't finish much weaker than he's been... ;)

[WMR]

A little late for that, unfortunately.

[Team Clark]

As an experienced major league employee of a front office, who understands advance scouting and statistical analysis of major league baseball players, here are two questions.

What camp do you belong to, TC?

How would other major league teams view Adam Dunn?

:laugh: I have been pretty hard on Adam as I have a relationship with him that I doubt that anyone on this board also has. I know a lot of the "truths" and myths.

I think the entire sitaution with Dunn boils down to expectations. What I would view as "working hard" and what Adam views as "working hard" are ENTIRELY 2 different things. I've spoken with Adam about this and everything is just a laugh and a joke. Alrighty then.

What I find most amazing is this. The Reds get into Adam's butt. Not only for his play but for a few other things. He responds. He coincidentally has a great July which he also had last year. He makes adjustments in his swing, pays attention to othe players AB's, watches video, shows up EARLY, NOT 3:55 but 2:00 for hitting, etc. etc.. Adam goes on a tear. Hits the ball up the middle, the other way....basically where it is pitched. Two things happen. 1) Adam isn't hitting Home Runs. :cry: Makes Adam Sad because he is a HR hitter. Even though he repeats some of Chambliss' lines in the paper, Adam misses pulling the ball into the River 2) Every team the Reds play has Advance scouts. They see Adam's new adjustments, do their homework and sprinkle smart dust on their pitchers. Adam does not make any further adjustments. Oh well, hitting is just too damn hard. Maybe I should go back to trying to use my Driver on this hole.

I love Adam. One of the GREATEST people you would ever meet. EVER. Unfortunately he has absolutely no idea what it takes to SUSTAIN that top level of success in this game. July should not be an aberration. Having said that he still hits 40 Bombs and is near 100 RBI again. Not bad at all. His numbers could be through the atmosphere. I just personally do not think he really "WANTS" that. I think he is pretty content. I can't say that I 100% blame him. He's not garbage. He's making plenty of $$$ and he's got some good power numbers. Like I said earlier. Everyone, including me, has much higher expectations of Adam.

I know of some other teams opinions. They are as divided as this board to be honest. I think he would be a great DH and could flourish where he was just "one of the guys". In Cincy he is a main ingredient and I think that wears on him.

[TeamBoone]

I take the side that believes a whole lot of people on this board are petty and flat out mean. Some of the comments made about players are just ridiculous... especially about human beings that most don't even know personally.

I don't even know what the one about using two four letter words means! At first, I thought the poster was being sarcastic... but now I don't think so. It's just gibberish and actually, quite condecending, as if Dunn is stupid.

PS - I now know it was sarcasm... should have stuck with my first thought, just like those pesky exams in college. Sorry I was misled.

[JEA]

I think the entire sitaution with Dunn boils down to expectations. What I would view as "working hard" and what Adam views as "working hard" are ENTIRELY 2 different things. I've spoken with Adam about this and everything is just a laugh and a joke. Alrighty then.

I'm curious: in exactly what capacity were you speaking to Dunn when everything was a laugh and a joke? I mean no offense, but if someone tried to critique my job performance that isn't really in a capacity to do that, I'd probably laugh it off too. I reckon most people, especially tough Texans, wouldn't take the advice too seriously.

[Team Clark]

I'm curious: in exactly what capacity were you speaking to Dunn when everything was a laugh and a joke? I mean no offense, but if someone tried to critique my job performance that isn't really in a capacity to do that, I'd probably laugh it off too. I reckon most people, especially tough Texans, wouldn't take the advice too seriously.

I've know Adam for a little over 5 years now. Maybe I can get him on my show and I will talk to him about this. Then you will see what I mean.

As far as context. That's pretty hard to put into writing on a message board. IMO

Baseball Players playfully and sometimes not so playfully rag on one another. Every so often someone will use some of that humor to dissarm a guy to talk to him about his game, habits, etc... That is probably the best way I can explain it. Probably not the complete answer you are looking for but that's what I have until I can possibly get him on the show.

[Heath]

If Adam's work "ethic" is in question, I'd rather have an 80% Dunn than 100% someone else.

I'd even go Steve Austin and combine an 80% Dunn with an 120% Freel. :eek:

[RedFanAlways1966]

Come on, Red Fan Always! When has the average baseball player been known for a great command of the English language? After playing all out for a game and getting peppered with questions from media who earn their living with language, Dunn is probably just getting his message across with the most economy he can.

And you criticize him for using two four-letter words to express himself? To quote you, "Good lord."

Eric... I thought the sarcasm was obvious. I apologize if it was not. Total sarcasm and nothing else. I am in the Dunn camp! :)

[Team Clark]

If Adam's work "ethic" is in question, I'd rather have an 80% Dunn than 100% someone else.

I'd even go Steve Austin and combine an 80% Dunn with an 120% Freel. :eek:

I would agree with that. :beerme:

[RedFanAlways1966]

I take the side that believes a whole lot of people on this board are petty and flat out mean. Some of the comments made about players are just ridiculous... especially about human beings that most don't even know personally.

I don't even know what the one about using two four letter words means! At first, I thought the poster was being sarcastic... but now I don't think so. It's just gibberish and actually, quite condecending, as if Dunn is stupid.


Okay... I guess I have to be more careful. YES, I was being sarcastic. It was all a reference to people who call Adam Dunn lazy for ridiculous things like not running a Carl Lewis 100-yard-dash for obvious doubles in the LF corner.

Just laugh and I'll promise to use more smilies so the sarcasm is more obvious. Sorry to not make this clear!

[TeamBoone]

RFA, I added a PS to my post regarding this.

[RedFanAlways1966]

RFA, I added a PS to my post regarding this.

Thanks, TB! MY smartleckness (sp?) gets out of control sometimes! :)

[Handofdeath]

If Adam's work "ethic" is in question, I'd rather have an 80% Dunn than 100% someone else.

I'd even go Steve Austin and combine an 80% Dunn with an 120% Freel. :eek:

I wonder how many of us on this board would get away with 80% effort/results at our respective jobs? When you lead the league in strikeouts and you're batting .239 AND you're a terrible fielder, 80% is not good enough. He will always hit those homers but meanwhile the AVG continues going down for the second straight season and so does the OBP and SLG. He's still terrible defensively. But people still adore the guy because of those homers. So be it. But he's still fat, lazy and doesn't care. Now let me put on my helmet and wait for the negs. :devil:

[TeamBoone]

I wonder how many of us on this board would get away with 80% effort/results at our respective jobs? When you lead the league in strikeouts and you're batting .239 AND you're a terrible fielder, 80% is not good enough. He will always hit those homers but meanwhile the AVG continues going down for the second straight season and so does the OBP and SLG. He's still terrible defensively. But people still adore the guy because of those homers. So be it. But he's still fat, lazy and doesn't care. Now let me put on my helmet and wait for the negs. :devil:

You know, I've about had it with all those who keep harping that Adam Dunn is a terrible fielder. He's far from the best, but he's also far from the worst, especially during the second half of the season.

And I highly believe there's not a player on the Reds team that doesn't care, Dunn included. That's another one that's getting old.... just like the fat part. Just because the team is floundering right now, it's not synonomous with "doesn't care".

And there's lots to love about Adam Dunn's game besides the homeruns... you just aren't paying attention.

I won't neg you because I don't do that, but if I did... I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Matt700wlw]

You know, I've about had it with all those who keep harping that Adam Dunn is a terrible fielder. He's far from the best, but he's also far from the worst, especially during the second half of the season.

I think an outfield of Manny Ramierez, Adam Dunn, and Wily Mo Pena would be painful to watch.... :yikes:

[TeamBoone]

I think an outfield of Manny Ramierez, Adam Dunn, and Wily Mo Pena would be painful to watch.... :yikes:


I don't think you have to worry about that.

Regardless, his fielding has improved a lot during the second half.

[Handofdeath]

You know, I've about had it with all those who keep harping that Adam Dunn is a terrible fielder. He's far from the best, but he's also far from the worst, especially during the second half of the season.

And I highly believe there's not a player on the Reds team that doesn't care, Dunn included. That's another one that's getting old.... just like the fat part. Just because the team is floundering right now, it's not synonomous with "doesn't care".

And there's lots to love about Adam Dunn's game besides the homeruns... you just aren't paying attention.

I won't neg you because I don't do that, but if I did... I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I appreciate you not negging me even though you want to. There are two things I forgot that also have gone down since last year. Fielding percentage and range factor. From .981 to .961 and from 2.08 to 1.98. Really I think I can explain his iffy improvement defensively. Someone on the coaching staff must have told him that when something is hit towards him to pretend it's a giant meatball.

[westofyou]

I appreciate you not negging me even though you want to. There are two things I forgot that also have gone down since last year. Fielding percentage and range factor. From .981 to .961 and from 2.08 to 1.98. Really I think I can explain his iffy improvement defensively. Someone on the coaching staff must have told him that when something is hit towards him to pretend it's a giant meatball.

Yes LF defense... soooooooooooooooooo important isn't it?

[dabvu2498]

Yes LF defense... soooooooooooooooooo important isn't it?

-13 FRAA is nothing to sneeze at.

[TeamBoone]

-13 FRAA is nothing to sneeze at.

Sorry, but what does this mean?

[westofyou]

-13 FRAA is nothing to sneeze at.

True, but if I'm hiding a guys fielding, LF is where it's at.

That said there's no reason he can't knock that down, or play 1st in his future. But I'm not going to make Dunn's defense a priority on my check list of what the Reds need to fix first.

[puca]

Unfortunately for the Reds, Adam isn't the only fielder they need to hide.

[pedro]

Sorry, but what does this mean?

It means he costs the Reds 13 runs in LF vs. an average LF. Seems about right to me.

FWIW, Lopez is at a -12

[NastyBoy]

With a strong finish, he has a shot at breaking his own record.

[pedro]

With a strong finish, he has a shot at breaking his own record.

how's that jersey thing going for you? ;)

[NastyBoy]

how's that jersey thing going for you? ;)

Who would have thunk that Griffey had a glass toe? LOL :laugh:

[redsmetz]

Did I hear Adam had a diving catch today???

[mbgrayson]

Did I hear Adam had a diving catch today???

Yes he did. Pretty nice catch. Can watch online HERE (javascript:void(playMedia2({w_id:'518517',w:'2006/open/tp/archive09/092006_cinhou_dunn_def_tp_350.wmv',pid:'mlb_tp',fi d:'mlb_tp350',v:'2'}))).


If that link doen't work, just go to www.mlb.com and it on video highlights.

[blumj]

I think an outfield of Manny Ramierez, Adam Dunn, and Wily Mo Pena would be painful to watch.... :yikes:

Painful to watch maybe, but as a Red Sox fan, I can tell you I'd trade Coco Crisp to the Reds in a deal for Adam Dunn in a heartbeat and worry about the OF defense later.

[redsmetz]

Yes he did. Pretty nice catch. Can watch online HERE (javascript:void(playMedia2({w_id:'518517',w:'2006/open/tp/archive09/092006_cinhou_dunn_def_tp_350.wmv',pid:'mlb_tp',fi d:'mlb_tp350',v:'2'}))).


If that link doen't work, just go to www.mlb.com and it on video highlights.

Thanks, I'm not sure I'd use the word "pretty", but he got to it and more important, he did what he need to do to make the catch. I'll take ugly and out any day. I don't think I would call Dunn a bad outfielder, rather slightly below average. I think he suffers from a rap for a few catchs that seemed to have been poorly played. I know I've seen stats posted that shows Dunn isn't as bad as the perception is. Not only in fielding percentage, but also in how they calculate a player's ability to get to the ball. I glad to see the night before last that he got a good throw in to stop the runner, resulting in a successful rundown.

[dabvu2498]

True, but if I'm hiding a guys fielding, LF is where it's at.

That said there's no reason he can't knock that down, or play 1st in his future. But I'm not going to make Dunn's defense a priority on my check list of what the Reds need to fix first.

As you have quoted Bill James, several times before if memory serves me:


Bill James wrote that a team is best to avoid having too many players who have the same weakness.

So, the Reds run out a LF with -13 FRAA, CF who is -12, crappy SS of the week who is -3, 0, or -1, 3B who is -9 and it's an insitutional problem and every ball hit on the left side of second base is a nail biter.

Also, I'm going to try some simple math here, because that's about all my brain can handle.

I'm going to use BP's BRAA (batting runs above average) and FRAA (fielding runs above average) and simply add them. If you want to "negatize" the stats or BP's methodology, or my methodology, go ahead. Like I said, this is about all my feeble mind can take.

Last year, Adam Dunn had a 39 BRAA and a -9 FRAA for a total score of +30. Pretty good by anyone's standards.

This season let's compare him to 19 other left fielders using those same two stats.


Player BRAA +/- FRAA = Total

Manny Ramirez 46-16 = 30
Matt Holliday 33+2 = 35
Alfonso Soriano 36+10 = 46
Jason Bay 35+11 = 46
Barry Bonds 37+1 = 38
Carl Crawford 14-3 = 11
Luke Scott 24+0 = 24
Reed Johnson 15+8 = 23
Josh Willingham 23-10 = 13
Adam Dunn 21-13 = 8
Carlos Lee 45-11 = 34
Juan Rivera 12+3 = 15
Raul Ibanez 14-1 = 13
Chris Duncan 18-2 = 16
Andre Ethier 13-6 = 7
Pat Burrell 16-1 = 15
Dave Roberts 14+2 = 16
Marcus Thames 9-3 = 6
Emil Brown 9+2 = 11
Frank Catalanotto 8+6 = 14

Now, lets try that again with ages and salaries.

Player BRAA +/- FRAA = Total Salary Age

Manny Ramirez 46-16 = 30 18.2M 34
Matt Holliday 33+2 = 35 500k 26
Alfonso Soriano 36+10 = 46 10.00M 30
Jason Bay 35+11 = 46 1.0M 28
Barry Bonds 37+1 = 38 20M 42
Carl Crawford 14-3 = 11 2.625M 25
Luke Scott 24+0 = 24 minimum 28
Reed Johnson 15+8 = 23 1.425 29
Josh Willingham 23-10 = 13 327K 27
Adam Dunn 21-13 = 8 7.5M 26
Carlos Lee 45-11 = 34 8.5M 30
Juan Rivera 12+3 = 15 1.25M 28
Raul Ibanez 14-1 = 13 4.9M 34
Chris Duncan 18-2 = 16 minimum 25
Andre Ethier 13-6 = 7 minimum 24
Pat Burrell 16-1 = 15 9.75M 29
Dave Roberts 14+2 = 16 2.25M 34
Marcus Thames 9-3 = 6 342K 29
Emil Brown 9+2 = 11 1.775M 31
Frank Catalanotto 8+6 = 14 2.7M 32

[westofyou]

Last year, Adam Dunn had a 39 BRAA and a -9 FRAA for a total score of +30. Pretty good by anyone's standards.

This season let's compare him to 19 other left fielders using those same two stats.Good points, but as I've also said before one season is not any mans career, so the real question will be do you keep him and if you do is it in LF.

I'm of the opinion that Dunn can and will hit better and that his fielding can be better.

I'm also of the opinion that the Reds can't replace his offense in one off season, so I'd be willing to gamble that he can return to a 30 doubles machine and still hit 45 HR's... and if they have to hide him on the field LF is still the place I'd do it.

I also think Bill James would agree with that too.

[dabvu2498]

Good points, but as I've also said before one season is not any mans career, so the real question will be do you keep him and if you do is it in LF.

The Reds are, to my kind, at the Adam Dunn precipice. Either he turns into Reggie Jackson... or Greg Luzinski. Either way, I don't think he's a Red in 2 more years.

With the footwork required to play 1st, I really can't see him there. You're right... LF is the place to hide him, but I can't see him anywhere but DH over the long haul. One of the Reds, problems is they don't have anyone else playing alongside him to give his defensive failings any cover-up.


I'm also of the opinion that the Reds can't replace his offense in one off season, so I'd be willing to gamble that he can return to a 30 doubles machine and still hit 45 HR's... and if they have to hide him on the field LF is still the place I'd do it.

Sure... if he goes back to creating 35-50 runs per year above average, you can live below average fielding, especially if the rest of the squad isn't so inept defensively. If he settles at 15-30 runs above average and maintains his current defense, the above chart would show he's fairly easily replaced for considerable savings.

[westofyou]

If he settles at 15-30 runs above average and mainains his current defense, the above chart would show he's fairly easily repalced for considerable savings.There lies your gamble.... all those LH relievers won't help his cause out in LF though eh?


With the footwork required to play 1st, I really can't see him there.

I can, the guy played it a mess and he's not that bad out there, I'd like to see them try it... I'll liken this Dunn year to Frank Howards's 1963 or 64 and Killebrews 1968 or 65 season. BA variance in power guys games can be ugly.