9/20 vs Astros Day Game Thread

[Red Rover]

Day game Reds lineup


Freel CF
Olmedo 2B
Hatteberg 1B
Dunn LF
Ross C
Clayton SS
Castro 3B
Denorfia RF
Arroyo P

[BRM]

Either this is a joke or the Reds have finally figured out it's over.

[Reds Fanatic]

Clayton batting 6th. Narron must be picking lineups out of hat now.

[reds44]

:laugh:

[flyer85]

Jerry wants to take it easy on Jolly Roger.

[redsfan30]

This is without a doubt the worst lineup that Narron has put on the field all season long.

But hey, we've only got a few more chances to enjoy baseball until March comes rolling around...so let's do just that. Enjoy the game.

Afterall, in the very near future, we'll be without games for 6 whole months.

[redsupport]

clayton is an up and coming star lets see how he does, Harris is already proven, clayton has great potential

[BRM]

This really isn't a joke. I just looked on the USA Today website.

:help:

[RollyInRaleigh]

That's lovely.:rolleyes: Sounds like a few guys might have a case of "Clemensitis."

[Danny Serafini]

If this doesn't scream "getaway day" I don't know what does. Gotta love the offensive black hole enveloping most of the infield today.

[Reds Fanatic]

Roger Clemens has never thrown a no-hitter in his career. With that lineup today may be his chance.

[Falls City Beer]

Ring, ring. It's the phone. Reds on the line....

[Danny Serafini]

From Marc's blog, may explain a couple of things:

Brandon Phillips says he's fine today, and in fact he wanted to play. Instead, he'll get a couple days off and hope to be back in the lineup Friday. Rich Aurilia gets a much-needed day off, which he requested, and a struggling Edwin Encarnacion does as well.

[redsfan30]

Watch this lineup score 13 runs.

[redsfan30]

And, in case some don't know...today's game is on ESPN.

[Heath]

http://www.slycraft.com/surrender-1.jpg

[Heath]

Watch this lineup score 13 runs.

...over 21 days....

[dabvu2498]

http://www.slycraft.com/surrender-1.jpg

Find that in a google search for "French national flag"???

[pedro]

I just don't understand why Helms isn't playing Jeff Richardson.

[Red Leader]

The least he could have done was put Olmedo at the bottom with the others.
Would have potentially given Dunn and Ross more chances to drive in a run. With that lineup, I could justify Arroyo hitting 6th or 7th.

[ThatPitchIsDunn]

Gary Thorne calling the game. We seem to do pretty well whenever he calls a daygame we're involved in. We may need that kinda voodoo on our side with this lineup.

Ah and he just called Deno DE-nor-FI-a. Check your pronunciation guide there Gary.

[Blimpie]

I think it would help if we moved Arroyo to 7th in the batting order....

[Heath]

Nice 5-9 hitting :bang:

[jesusfan]

Freel grounds to Clemens... 1 down

[jesusfan]

Olmedo with a GO to 2nd... 2 down

[Danny Serafini]

Anyone else having problems with Gameday Audio cutting out?

[pedro]

Anyone else having problems with Gameday Audio cutting out?

working fine for me for once.

[jesusfan]

1-2-3 inning for Clemens as Hatte grounds to SS... I have a feeling we'll see alot of those today....

[RedLegSuperStar]

no-no begins

[redsupport]

do you think Neil Fiala should play today?

[redsfan30]

With Clemens on the mound and the lineup Cincinnati is running out there, Bronson Arroyo has to be on top of his game big time today.

[Red Leader]

Biggio pops out to SS. 1 out.

[Red Leader]

Lamb grounds out to 1B. 2 out.

[Highlifeman21]

I turn on ESPN to watch them flash the defensive alignment graphic to see an IF of Castro, Clayton, Olmedo and Hatteberg.

Lord I feel sorry for Hatteberg to be included in that group.

Pardon me while I go throw up.

[redsfan30]

Good start for Arroyo, as well.

[Red Leader]

Berkman stands in at .313 with 41 HR and 122 RBI. Nice year for him.

[Red Leader]

Almost makes it 42/123, but flies out to RF.

1-2-3 for Arroyo.

[Red Leader]

16 pitches for Arroyo, 12 for Clemens through 1. 0-0.

Dunn, Ross, Clayton due up in the 2nd.

[redsfan30]

Wow. Dunn is 7-15 against Clemens....never would have guessed that.

[redsfan30]

Great at bat for Dunn, drawing the leadoff walk.

[Red Leader]

Nice patience by Dunn taking the count to 3-2 and he draws a walk.

[Red Leader]

I'm thinking David Ross won't see too many good pitches in this AB (or this game for that matter).

Unless Clayton is 20-21 against Clemens and I'm not aware of it.

[Red Leader]

Clayton is 1-3 with a double against Clemens this year.

[redsfan30]

Ross strikes out swinging, despite a pretty good at bat.

Dunn steals second.

[jesusfan]

Ross K's but Clemens pitch count now up to 27 after 2 good AB's...

[Red Leader]

Ross shows some discipline and gets it from 0-2 to 2-2, then K's while Adam steals 2B.

[Red Leader]

Adam planted on 2B with 1 out and Clayton up to the plate. Castro on deck.

[jesusfan]

Clayton K's... Im shocked...

[Red Leader]

Clayton K's. 2 outs. Dunn still on 2B.

[jesusfan]

Castro is gonna clutch up!

[redsfan30]

Juan Castro has come up with some big hits this season. Hopefully he can do the same here.

[redsfan30]

Castro looks baffled by the splitter...

[Red Leader]

I know this sounds crazy but Clayton, Castro, or Deno have to win this game for us. Dunn should have a good game, but he's going to get stranded every inning unless one of those guys comes through...

[jesusfan]

Castro GO to 3rd... 0-0 mid 2nd

[pedro]

worst. lineup. ever.

[Red Leader]

Castro grounds out to 3B. End of inning.

Scott, Huff, Burke due up for HOU.

[Gallen5862]

Arryo gives up a homerun to Scott.

[jesusfan]

Ball-game!

[REDREAD]

The Reds must not really think much of Harris at all.

[pedro]

The Reds must not really think much of Harris at all.


narron sure doesn't seem to anyway. I find it baffling myself. or maybe not as teh longer the season goes the less I like Jerry and his vet love.

[redsfan30]

Arroyo just threw Aubrey Huff a dandy sweeping curveball to strike him out.

Good pitch.

[Roy Tucker]

worst. lineup. ever.

Reminds me the lineup the Reds used in that 20K game Randy Johnson threw at the Reds a few years back. Donnie Sadler and Juan Castro batted 1-2 IIRC.

[REDREAD]

narron sure doesn't seem to anyway. I find it baffling myself. or maybe not as teh longer the season goes the less I like Jerry and his vet love.

I can see why Phillips needed a day off. But why not give Harris a start at 3b or 2b? Castro and Olmedo are definitely not part of the future. Or since Clayton is a sure gonner after this season, slide Castro to SS.

If Harris can't get a start today, is he doomed to be stashed in AAA as an emergency backup Infielder? I see by his line that he's appeared in 3 games, and only gotten 4 at bats. Seems to indicate he's not in the Reds short term plans.

[jesusfan]

Deno K's... 1 down

[BRM]

Seems to indicate he's not in the Reds short term plans.

Maybe he was just a throw-in to that deal as well. :dunno:

[pedro]

I can see why Phillips needed a day off. But why not give Harris a start at 3b or 2b? Castro and Olmedo are definitely not part of the future. Or since Clayton is a sure gonner after this season, slide Castro to SS.

If Harris can't get a start today, is he doomed to be stashed in AAA as an emergency backup Infielder? I see by his line that he's appeared in 3 games, and only gotten 4 at bats. Seems to indicate he's not in the Reds short term plans.


I think it really has more to do with Narron's style than anything else. He's not going to lean on anyone who isn't a vet or hasn't been in the org for a while.

I think it's a mistake myself.

[Gallen5862]

Arroyo with a good at bat. He is running up the Rocket's pitch count.

[Red Leader]

I'd love to see Bronson take Clemens deep.

[Red Leader]

He K's. 2 outs. Freel up.

[jesusfan]

Clemens up to 55 pitches... PATIENCE is going well today, even though we have 0 hits!

[Red Leader]

Freel walked, BTW. Olmedo up with 2 outs and Freel on 2nd.

[jesusfan]

Clemens worried about Freel....

[jesusfan]

Rey-Rey breaks up the NO NO... 1st and 3rd Hatte up...

[Red Leader]

Olmedo singles, Freel to 3B. 2 outs. Hatteberg up to the plate.

1-0 Astros, Reds hitting in the 3rd

[dabvu2498]

He's not going to lean on anyone who isn't a vet or hasn't been in the org for a while.


He leaned on Brandon Phillips pretty much all year.

[jesusfan]

well... another scoring opportunity wasted...

[Red Leader]

Hatteberg ends the inning with a fly out.

1-0 Astros going to the BOT of 3rd.

Clemens, Biggio, Lamb due up.

[Red Leader]

Clemens at 63 pitches through 3 IP.

[pedro]

He leaned on Brandon Phillips pretty much all year.

true, but that's different. My point is that IMO he's not going to use any of these september call up guys unless it is someone like Olmedo who he is already familiar with.

[jesusfan]

Roger with a double...

[Red Leader]

Roger with a double...

Hopefully he pulled something going around 1st.

[jesusfan]

Biggio K's... 1 down

[redsfan30]

Another nice pitch by Arroyo to punch out Biggio.

[Red Leader]

If the Astros resign Biggio next year, they'll have 3 huge offensive black holes in their lineup. Biggio, Everett and Ausmus. That's too much to overcome offensively and be a contender, IMO. I hope they do it, but they'd be smart to tear it apart and build it over.

[RBA]

Deno K's... 1 down

I'm shocked! NOT!

[Gallen5862]

Freel and Deno almost had a collision.

[Red Leader]

Lamb flies out to CF. 2 outs. Clemens on 2nd. Berkman at the dish.

1-0 Astros, bottom of 3.

[jesusfan]

Berk walks....

[Gallen5862]

Great play by the Hat and Arroyo at first.

[jesusfan]

Nice job by Arroyo to get out of that... still 1-0 Stro's top 4th...

[Red Leader]

Scott grounds out to end the inning.

1-0 Astros going to the 4th.

Dunn, Ross, Clayton due up (get used to it)

[Red Leader]

Has anyone hit the flag pole on a fly at Houston?

[Heath]

narron sure doesn't seem to anyway. I find it baffling myself. or maybe not as teh longer the season goes the less I like Jerry and his vet love.

Bingo - I think Krivsky likes the younger kids - but his manager refuses to play them. One might wonder if that might be the precursor if the manager gets dropped at the end of the year.

[Red Leader]

Dunn quickly falls to 0-2, then goes to 1-2, then 2-2, and then takes one looking. 1 out. Ross up.

[jesusfan]

Dunn K's... Oh My Goodness!!

[Red Leader]

Bingo - I think Krivsky likes the younger kids - but his manager refuses to play them. One might wonder if that might be the precursor if the manager gets dropped at the end of the year.

One can only hope. Narron is signed for next year already, though.

[Tom Servo]

Jeez Ross...

[pedro]

Bingo - I think Krivsky likes the younger kids - but his manager refuses to play them. One might wonder if that might be the precursor if the manager gets dropped at the end of the year.

i still think that's possible. i have a sneaking supiscion that narron was given an extension to try and get the clubhouse under control for this year. which is also maybe why they made "the trade". i just have a hard time believing castellini isn't going to hire lou piniella this off season.

[Gallen5862]

Ross is helping to add to The Rockets pitchcount. He strikes out though.

[Red Leader]

Dunn K's looking
Ross K's looking
Clayton flies out.

1-2-3 for Roger.

1-0 Astros, bottom of 4.

Clemens, 77 pitches. Arroyo 54 so far.

[Chip R]

Has anyone hit the flag pole on a fly at Houston?

I'm sure Freel has tried when diving for a ball. ;)

[Gallen5862]

Why was Hopper and Hollingsworth put into the game now?

[Danny Serafini]

Just about to ask the same thing. Sadly I have to listen to the Astros broadcast, and they don't know.

[Tom Servo]

Does Jerry have a bet on Houston or something what with this lineup and now changing the lineup mid-game?


Web-gem by Adam!

[Gallen5862]

Maybe they get rid of Narron for betting on Baseball. :)

[TeamBoone]

Nobody's hitting; maybe he thinks those two can get something going???

Great defensive play by Adam.

[Gallen5862]

The Espn announcers are baffled as well by the player moves. Arroyo bunts into a double play.

[KronoRed]

This is the worst lineup I have ever seen.

Go Reds :D

[Danny Serafini]

Freel has a strained left wrist, Denorfia cut his ankle. Just heard it.

[Tom Servo]

Hollandsworth gets a single, and Bronson bunts in a double play.

:bang:

[jesusfan]

well... that is going to help Clemens pitch count 1 pitch 2 outs...

[Gallen5862]

Hi Krono! Its been awhile since seen you in a game thread. Have you been slowing down on posting because you ran out of apple juice? :)

[Gallen5862]

Where did you hear that out about Freel and Deno?

[Gallen5862]

I just heard it on Espn.

[KronoRed]

Hi Krono! Its been awhile since seen you in a game thread. Have you been slowing down on posting because you ran out of apple juice? :)
:laugh:

Not enough juice in the world to help deal with a Reds September :help:

[Gallen5862]

Wow almost a homerun by Ausmus.

[Tom Servo]

Ausmus doubles

[TeamBoone]

I get the feeling the announcers are rooting for the Astros.

BTW, they said Freel has a "sprained" left wrist! I hope it's only "strained".

[Red Leader]

I get the feeling the announcers are rooting for the Astros.

At this point, so am I. :laugh:

This lineup is pathetic.

[RedsManRick]

Saw that both Freel and Deno left with injuries. Collision?

[Danny Serafini]

Where did you hear that out about Freel and Deno?

I've been listening to the Astros radio announcers since the Reds feed is acting all screwy for me. Anyone who complains about Marty & Steve should have to listen to these two. Ugh. Pretty big homers, plus they're just annoying in general.

[Tom Servo]

Bronson walks Lamb to bring up the Red Killer :dunno:

[joshnky]

BA is having some control problems today. Bases loaded.

[Gallen5862]

Arroyo is looking tired now.

[Heath]

Luke Scott - Reds Killer

[Tom Servo]

Arroyo hits Berkman to load the bases for Luke Scott

[Heath]

Nice to see the brushback pitch work...

[Red Leader]

Bases loaded. 2 outs. Luke Scott to the plate.

[Heath]

Wow. Close. A little high

[Gallen5862]

Full count on Scott.

[Tom Servo]

:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Gallen5862]

Scott drives in 3 runs with a tripple.

[Gallen5862]

Scott has all 4 rbis today for the Astros.

[Gallen5862]

Arroyo strikes out Burke.

[Heath]

Well, that wasn't good.

[KronoRed]

Well the 1 run was probably enough but I guess they wanted to be sure, can never tell when Olmedo power will arrive

[Tom Servo]

2 out and a guy on 3rd, and 3 runs score...

[Gallen5862]

Olmedo with 2 hits today.

[RedsManRick]

Queue the "Olmedo is the answer at 2B in 2007" posts...

[Tom Servo]

You can't stop Ray Olmedo, you can only hope to contain him.

[KronoRed]

Queue the "Olmedo is the answer at 2B in 2007" posts...

Hey! I was saying that in 2005 :devil:

[Red Leader]

Queue the "Olmedo is the answer at 2B in 2007" posts...

yeah, because who doesn't want a starting position player on your team that wears a uniform number in the 60's. :D

[Gallen5862]

Dunn draws a walk runners on first and second.

[Red Leader]

BTW, Krono, slow down. I was almost within 30,000 posts of you. :laugh:

[Gallen5862]

Ross needs to get onbase.

[Gallen5862]

Ross flies out to end the inning.

[Tom Servo]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly?

[flyer85]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly? :dunno:

No point in it.

[Tom Servo]

well...huh

[Red Rover]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly?

His arm is a little stiff, so Narron wants to loosen it up. :bang:

[flyer85]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly?So Biggio could hit a HR must be the answer.

[Strikes Out Looking]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly?

I believe the proper question is, Why exactly is Krivsky letting Narron manage the team?

[flyer85]

I believe the proper question is, Why exactly is Krivsky letting Narron manage the team?makes Wayne look competent by comparison? :p:

[Wheelhouse]

GM's nowadays seem to prefer a stooge to a strong manager (see Boone/Bowden).

[Tom Servo]

I believe the proper question is, Why exactly is Krivsky letting Narron manage the team?
You know, I was always pretty much on the fence when it comes to Narron, but the decision to keep Arroyo in this game made absolutley zero sense on every possible level, and that's pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Firing Narron is still not incredibly high on my offseason wishlist, but it's definatly on there now.

[Red Rover]

Big bats are comming up,

Clayton
Castro
Worthless

:devil:

[Always Red]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly?

to inflate his ERA? :(

[TeamBoone]

I think I may puke.

I can't stand Roger Clemons!

And I'm sick of his show at the end of the season every year.

[flyer85]

to inflate his ERA? :(success!! :laugh:

[CTA513]

Why is Narron leaving Bronson in exactly?

I have no clue why, but I was happy to hear the announcers say something about it instead of ignoring it.

[flyer85]

to think that OF of Dunn/Jr/Kearns has devolved to Dunn/Hopper/Hollandsworth. :cry:

[TeamBoone]

Norris Hooper? These guys need to pay attention to what they're doing.

And yeah, Narron certainly hasn't helped the cause today. It could have gone in a whole different direction if he'd put his A game on the field and replaced Arroyo when it was obvious to everyone but him.

I guess he didn't feel this game was important.

[TeamBoone]

Why did they say Shackleford has an inflated ERA?

[flyer85]

Why did they say Shackleford has an inflated ERA?I know the answer to that one. It's because Narron is dumb enough to let him face RHBs.

[Cyclone792]

Bronson Arroyo came into today's game with 221.1 innings pitched (first in the majors) and 3,520 pitches thrown (first in the majors).

So with the team essentially a non-factor for the playoffs, Jerry Narron elects to allow Arroyo to throw 120 pitches in today's game, including 38 pitches alone during a high stress 5th inning.

Excellent job, Narron. This really is phenomenal management and caretaking of one of the franchise's best pitchers.

I can't wait until Narron gets his hands on Homer Bailey. :help:

[flyer85]

Bronson Arroyo came into today's game with 221.1 innings pitched (first in the majors) and 3,520 pitches thrown (first in the majors).

So with the team essentially a non-factor for the playoffs, Jerry Narron elects to allow Arroyo to throw 120 pitches in today's game, including 38 pitches alone during a high stress 5th inning.

Excellent job, Narron. This really is phenomenal management and caretaking of one of the franchise's best pitchers.

I can't wait until Narron gets his hands on Homer Bailey.maybe the Reds could hire Dusty Baker as pitching coach.

[redsupport]

Narron is so over his head he should have been on life support by now. He handles a pitching staff as well as Vern Rapp

[joshnky]

A grand slam could make this thing interesting

[flyer85]

A grand slam could make this thing interestingClayton and Castro ... good bets

[joshnky]

Clayton out. Castro drives in two with a single.

[joshnky]

Trever Miller on to pitch

[joshnky]

At least we scored. It doesn't mean much but I hate getting shut out.

[KronoRed]

Bronson Arroyo came into today's game with 221.1 innings pitched (first in the majors) and 3,520 pitches thrown (first in the majors).

So with the team essentially a non-factor for the playoffs, Jerry Narron elects to allow Arroyo to throw 120 pitches in today's game, including 38 pitches alone during a high stress 5th inning.

Excellent job, Narron. This really is phenomenal management and caretaking of one of the franchise's best pitchers.

I can't wait until Narron gets his hands on Homer Bailey. :help:


But it's still all the offenses fault ;)

[Tom Servo]

I really would have liked to see Castro as our regular SS all those games over Clayton.

[CTA513]

At least we scored. It doesn't mean much but I hate getting shut out.

Clayton helped the Astros out by swinging at pitches after Nieve just walked 3 batters.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

If the Astros want Dunn, I'll take Luke Scott and their top pitching prospect or Lidge.

Luke Scott must be included.

Dude can rake.

[Chip R]

Norris Hooper? These guys need to pay attention to what they're doing.


At least they didn't call him Dennis Hopper. :evil:

[OnBaseMachine]

I've said this 100 times: I don't want Homer Bailey on the Reds 25-man roster until Jerry Narron is gone. He'll ruin him.

[WVRedsFan]

Norris Hooper? These guys need to pay attention to what they're doing.

And yeah, Narron certainly hasn't helped the cause today. It could have gone in a whole different direction if he'd put his A game on the field and replaced Arroyo when it was obvious to everyone but him.

I guess he didn't feel this game was important.

Uh Oh. When TB sees the light, everyone should listen.

Big mistake giving him the extention and I've thought it from the first.

[Always Red]

I can't wait until Narron gets his hands on Homer Bailey. :help:

This is one of the best reasons that Jerry needs to go, if he does indeed need to go. I haven't decided in my own mind, yet. Flip a coin, that's where I am right now.

For the record, I truly believe that this teams also lacks intensity, which is a reflection of the manager.

Homer Bailey, his progress, and his career, are so very important to this team and it's future. If they are going to turn the corner and begin pitching like responsible major leaguers do, they need to handle Bailey correctly, and do the right thing for him and this team.

I'm not sure Narron is the guy to handle that; I'm not sure Hume is the guy to handle that. They need a decision on Ruhle, one way or another. I know the man has cancer, and is waging the war of his life, but he is either in as pitching coach, or out. He certainly will understand if they move on, or at least, name an interim-full time- from outside the organization- you know, one of those places that has good pitching-pitching coach.

If Narron screws up Bailey, it sets this organization back 5 years. At this point, Homer is like the Promised One. And he needs a Yoda to help make him into a Jedi Knight. Is Narron the guy for that?? Kriv has gutted the offense, in a ballpark where everyone hits except the Reds these days, in search of pitching, which has not yet produced much other than Arroyo.

[flyer85]

Luke Scott must be included.

Dude can rake.
small sample mirage. Heck, he's 28.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

small sample mirage. Heck, he's 28.

Yeah, I know. But he wouldn't be a bad throw-in.

[BuckeyeRedleg]

I also like his last two years (2005, 2006) at AAA (Round Rock):

716 AB
51 HR (40 2B's, 5 3B's = 96 XBH's in 716 AB's!)
150 RBI
.960 OPS

Add in his totals thru 170 AB's this year in Houston....

8 HR (6 3B's, 18 2B's = 32 XBH's in 170 AB's!)
30 RBI
1.200+ OPS

Late bloomer. I'll take him.

Why did the Indians trade this guy? Who did they get for him?

[Matt700wlw]

Luckily for me, I had a break from working yesterday...but being the fan that I am, I had the game on TV AT HOME (for once).

I knew the 3 run homer was coming, because Bronson wasn't having his best day and his pitch count was getting up there....hell, even the ESPN guys said a couple times, "Why is Arroyo still out there?"

I said to myself, "Because Jerry will leave him in to completely let this game out of hand."

Suddenly...BOOM.

It's so predictable anymore. I'm tired of it.

7-0...I turned off the TV and got something constructive done.

[Red Leader]

I also like his last two years (2005, 2006) at AAA (Round Rock):

716 AB
51 HR (40 2B's, 5 3B's = 96 XBH's in 716 AB's!)
150 RBI
.960 OPS

Add in his totals thru 170 AB's this year in Houston....

8 HR (6 3B's, 18 2B's = 32 XBH's in 170 AB's!)
30 RBI
1.200+ OPS

Late bloomer. I'll take him.

Why did the Indians trade this guy? Who did they get for him?


You're going to like this one...you ready?

Ready?


Jeriome Robertson. :laugh:

Well, at least the Indians got a former 15 game winner in return for Scott. :D

[TeamBoone]

Luckily for me, I had a break from working yesterday...but being the fan that I am, I had the game on TV AT HOME (for once).

I knew the 3 run homer was coming, because Bronson wasn't having his best day and his pitch count was getting up there....hell, even the ESPN guys said a couple times, "Why is Arroyo still out there?"

I said to myself, "Because Jerry will leave him in to completely let this game out of hand."

Suddenly...BOOM.

It's so predictable anymore. I'm tired of it.

7-0...I turned off the TV and got something constructive done.

Those simple words say it all.... predictable. The same mistakes by JN, every single time.

And, though this one wasn't predictable, only 4 regulars in the starting lineup (and one was the catcher), I found myself not surprised. That is very very sad.