Bonds blamed failed amphetamines test on teammate

[savafan]

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/story/9921732

NEW YORK -- Barry Bonds failed a test for amphetamines last season and originally blamed it on a teammate, the Daily News reported Thursday.

When first informed of the positive test, Bonds attributed it to a substance he had taken from teammate Mark Sweeney's locker, the New York City newspaper said, citing several unnamed sources.

"I have no comment on that," Bonds' agent Jeff Borris told the Daily News on Wednesday night.

"Mark was made aware of the fact that his name had been brought up," Sweeney's agent Barry Axelrod told the Daily News. "But he did not give Barry Bonds anything, and there was nothing he could have given Barry Bonds."

Bonds, who always has maintained he never has tested positive for illegal drug use, already is under investigation for lying about steroid use.

A federal grand jury is investigating whether the 42-year-old Bonds perjured himself when he testified in 2003 in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative steroid distribution case that he never knowingly used performance-enhancing drugs. The San Francisco Giants slugger told a 2003 federal grand jury that he believed his trainer Greg Anderson had provided him flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, not steroids.

Under baseball's amphetamines policy, which went into effect last season, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test. A second positive test for amphetamines results in a 25-game suspension. The first failed steroids test costs a player 50 games.

The Giants still are working to finalize complicated language in the slugger's $16 million, one-year contract for next season -- a process that has lasted almost a month since he agreed to the deal Dec. 7 on the last day of baseball's winter meetings.

The language still being negotiated concerns the left fielder's compliance with team rules, as well as what would happen if he were to be indicted or have other legal troubles.

Borris has declined to comment on the negotiations. He didn't immediately return a message from the AP on Wednesday night.

The 42-year-old Bonds is set to begin his 15th season with the Giants only 22 home runs shy of surpassing Hank Aaron's career record of 755.

Bonds, considered healthy again following offseason surgery on his troublesome left elbow, has spent 14 of his 21 big league seasons with San Francisco and helped the Giants draw 3 million fans in all seven seasons at their waterfront ballpark.

After missing all but 14 games in 2005 following three operations on his right knee, Bonds batted .270 with 26 homers and 77 RBI in 367 at-bats in 2006. He passed Babe Ruth to move into second place on the career home run list May 28.
AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

[Goten]

Hey, I guess he joines Henry Aaron and his GodFather as Amphetamines taking power hitters.

[Jpup]

I don't really understand the story. Do we know for sure Bonds tested positive or is this just gossip? If Barry Axelrod is leaking this info, he is going to be in deep trouble and I would assume that he would lose some clients. Axelrod is Rich Aurilia's agent as well as Mark Sweeney. I am sure there are a lot more guys as well. This will not sit well with the player's union. This seems like only part of the story.

The bad part about his is that I heard Mark Sweeney on XM, earlier in the off season, saying how great it has been to play with Barry. I find this kind of weird.

[Jpup]

I don't know why you didn't show the entire article, but here it is:


NEW YORK -- Barry Bonds failed a test for amphetamines last season and originally blamed it on a teammate, the Daily News reported Thursday.

When first informed of the positive test, Bonds attributed it to a substance he had taken from teammate Mark Sweeney's locker, the New York City newspaper said, citing several unnamed sources.

"I have no comment on that," Bonds' agent Jeff Borris told the Daily News on Wednesday night.

"Mark was made aware of the fact that his name had been brought up," Sweeney's agent Barry Axelrod told the Daily News. "But he did not give Barry Bonds anything, and there was nothing he could have given Barry Bonds."

Bonds, who always has maintained he never has tested positive for illegal drug use, already is under investigation for lying about steroid use.

A federal grand jury is investigating whether the 42-year-old Bonds perjured himself when he testified in 2003 in the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative steroid distribution case that he never knowingly used performance-enhancing drugs. The San Francisco Giants slugger told a 2003 federal grand jury that he believed his trainer Greg Anderson had provided him flaxseed oil and arthritic balm, not steroids.

Under baseball's amphetamines policy, which went into effect last season, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test. A second positive test for amphetamines results in a 25-game suspension. The first failed steroids test costs a player 50 games.

Bonds did not appeal the positive test, according to the Daily News, which made him subject to six drug tests by MLB over the next six months.

"We're not in a position to confirm or deny, obviously," MLB spokesman Rich Levin told the Daily News.

According to the newspaper, Sweeney learned of the Bonds' positive test from Gene Orza, chief operating officer of the Major League Baseball Players Association. Orza told Sweeney, the paper said, that he should remove any troublesome substances from his locker and should not share said substances. Sweeney said there was nothing of concern in his locker, according to the Daily News' sources.

An AP message for Sweeney was not immediately returned late Wednesday.

The Giants still are working to finalize complicated language in Bonds' $16 million, one-year contract for next season -- a process that has lasted almost a month since he agreed to the deal Dec. 7 on the last day of baseball's winter meetings.

The language still being negotiated concerns the left fielder's compliance with team rules, as well as what would happen if he were to be indicted or have other legal troubles.

Borris has declined to comment on the negotiations. He didn't immediately return a message from the AP on Wednesday night.

Bonds is set to begin his 15th season with the Giants only 22 home runs shy of surpassing Hank Aaron's career record of 755.

Bonds, considered healthy again following offseason surgery on his troublesome left elbow, has spent 14 of his 21 big league seasons with San Francisco and helped the Giants draw 3 million fans in all seven seasons at their waterfront ballpark.

After missing all but 14 games in 2005 following three operations on his right knee, Bonds batted .270 with 26 homers and 77 RBI in 367 at-bats in 2006. He passed Babe Ruth to move into second place on the career home run list May 28.

AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

Copyright 2005-2006, The Associated Press, All Rights Reserved

[Jpup]

Here is the New York Daily News article:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/487685p-410640c.html


Failure leaves a testy Barry
Passes blame to teammate


BY T.J. QUINN
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Barry Bonds, already under investigation for lying under oath about his steroid use, failed a test under Major League Baseball's amphetamine policy last season and then initially blamed it on a teammate, the Daily News has learned.

Under the policy, which went into effect only last season, players are not publicly identified for a first positive test.

But according to several sources, when first informed by the MLB Players Association of the positive test, Bonds attributed it to a substance he had taken from the locker of teammate Mark Sweeney. Sources did not identify the drug in question but characterized it as a serious stimulant.

When asked last night whether Bonds had an explanation for why he failed the test or if he wanted to issue a denial, Bonds' agent, Jeff Borris, said, "I have no comment on that."

Giants officials did not return calls seeking comment last night.

Bonds, who has long defended himself against steroid accusations by saying he "never failed a drug test," did not appeal his positive test, but was immediately subject to an additional six drug tests by MLB over the next six months.

Sweeney declined comment, but his agent, Barry Axelrod, told The News, "Mark was made aware of the fact that his name had been brought up, but he did not give Barry Bonds anything and there was nothing he could have given Barry Bonds."

Bonds was not punished for his transgression, but instead was referred to treatment and counseling. While amphetamines are considered performance-enhancing drugs, they are treated differently than steroids under baseball's drug policy. Had Bonds failed a steroid test, he would have been suspended for 50 games, but under baseball's amphetamine policy no one is publicly identified or suspended until a second positive, which would result in a 25-game suspension. A player is suspended for 80 games for a third positive.

The policy covers a range of stimulants, including the ubiquitous "greenies," or Dexedrine. Benzedrine, ephedrine and the stimulants Ritalin and Adderall, which are used to treat attention-deficit disorder, are among the substances on the policy.

"We're not in a position to confirm or deny, obviously," MLB spokesman Rich Levin said. "A second failed test would mean a suspension."

Sources said Sweeney, a first baseman/outfielder, first heard about the test when Gene Orza, the chief operating officer of the players association, called to say the player's name had been dragged into the controversy.

Orza told Sweeney that if he had anything troublesome in his locker, he should remove it and that he should not be sharing substances with other players. Sweeney told Orza that there was nothing in his locker that would be of concern, sources said.

Axelrod would not comment on the conversation between Orza and Sweeney. Orza also refused to comment on what he said to Sweeney or about Bonds' failed test, but added, "I can say unequivocally in my 22 years I've known Barry Bonds he has never blamed anyone for anything."

Sweeney apparently confronted Bonds, and Bonds told him that Orza had misunderstood, that he had not intended to implicate his teammate.

Bonds has been in the doping spotlight since September 2003, when federal agents raided the BALCO lab and the home of Bonds' personal trainer, Greg Anderson. Bonds testified before a grand jury in the steroid-trafficking case that he had taken substances identified by the government as steroids, but that he believed they were legal supplements. A Daily News reporter overheard part of his testimony that day admitting he had unknowingly used steroids, and a year later the San Francisco Chronicle published extended excerpts from the grand jury transcripts.

The leaks about Bonds' steroid use were not sufficient evidence to allow MLB to test Bonds for cause, but the failed amphetamine test is.

BALCO founder Victor Conte, Anderson and three other men served prison sentences for their parts in the trafficking ring, and Bonds has been under investigation for perjury and tax evasion for more than two years. Anderson is in prison on a contempt charge for refusing to testify against his longtime friend.

Long before steroids took hold in clubhouses in the early 1990s, amphetamines were the performance-enhancer of choice in baseball. Even when baseball first adopted a steroids policy in 2003, amphetamines were not specifically banned or tested for, although many are illegal without a prescription.

[sonny]

i'm shocked. just shocked.

[Ltlabner]

This isn't the first time he' blamed something on taking things another team mate gives him. (Not that I belive that story anyway) But would't he figure out after a while, especially considering he's a 42 year old man, that you don't have to instantly injest everything someone puts in your hand?

[edabbs44]

He's a class act.

[Strikes Out Looking]

He's a class act.

and still unsigned. Is Sabean having second thoughts? After the Zito signing, I'm not sure Sabean has lucid thoughts...

[flyer85]

He's a class act.He is such an endearing team member.

[Yachtzee]

Anyone remember when Barry was thought to never put anything in his body if he didn't know what was in it, to the point of hiring nutritionists to check out his food? Barry, you're getting sloppy. First flaxseed oil, now this?

Mark Sweeney: "Ow, my back. Did I just get run over?"
Miguel Tejada: "Welcome, fellow traveller!"
Sweeney: "Hey, Miguel. What are you doing here? What is this place?"
Tejada: "Under the bus. Barry Bonds just threw you here. Pull up a chair and chill for a while. It will all blow over eventually."
Sweeney: "Is that so? Man, my back hurts. So that's what it feels like to get run over."
Tejada: "Yeah, you're really going to feel it the next day. Here, take this 'Vitamin B-12' shot..."

[TStuck]

The word "schmuck" comes to mind...... It didn't even say that Sweeney gave it to him did it? It said he claimed to have taken it from Sweeney's locker. Nothing like a little subterfuge to try to shift the focus and blame.
Schmuck:thumbdown

Schmuck, schmuck, schmuck!!!:angry:

[Chip R]

Didn't Barry throw Gary Sheffield under the bus too or was Shef just POed at Bonds for something else?

[savafan]

I don't know why you didn't show the entire article, but here it is:

They must have updated it since the story broke around 3 AM.

[jmcclain19]

Didn't Barry throw Gary Sheffield under the bus too or was Shef just POed at Bonds for something else?

Bonds did steal Sheffield's personal chef - if I remember correctly - Bonds said his "cream" and "clear" were from Gary Anderson and he didn't know what was in them. I don't think he lied to Sheffield about the steroids he was giving him.

[Dom Heffner]

Put him in the hall. Gaylord Perry cheated, so everybody can.

[Strikes Out Looking]

Bonds did steal Sheffield's personal chef - if I remember correctly - Bonds said his "cream" and "clear" were from Gary Anderson and he didn't know what was in them. I don't think he lied to Sheffield about the steroids he was giving him.

Actually their falling out occurred when Sheffield was rehabbing over the winter with Bonds and staying at Barry's home. Bonds insisted that Shef get up and lift with him every morning (early--much too early for Shef) and also didn't want Shef to rent a car. Shef was also hurting as he had just had knee surgery a few months before. So Shef and his wife finally had enough and left and the two have never been close since. This incident is in the Balco Book that came out last Spring.

[savafan]

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6359088

Ken Rosenthal / FOXSports.com
Posted: 2 hours ago

Are the Giants having fun yet?

It's Jan. 11 -- repeat, Jan. 11 -- and Barry Bonds is the subject of not one, but two New York Daily News bombshells.

Bonds tested positive for amphetamines last season and initially blamed it on Giants teammate Mark Sweeney, according to the first report.

Meanwhile, the Giants' desire to ban Bonds' entourage is the biggest obstacle to finalizing his one-year, $16 million contract, the second report states.

The happy talk will only continue in spring training and during what promises to be a summer of discontent, with Mr. Wonderful needing just 22 homers to break Hank Aaron's all-time mark.

In case anyone has forgotten, Bonds could face perjury charges for his testimony in the federal investigation of BALCO, the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative.

But hey, Bonds says he has never failed a drug test or used anything stronger than flaxseed oil, even though Game of Shadows portrays him as a walking pharmacy and his head is the size of Iceland.

The Giants know the territory; they've been tiptoeing around it for years. They could have escaped. They still could escape. But Barry Greenie is their man.

It would have made sense for the Giants to overpay a free agent such as Alfonso Soriano or Carlos Lee, reasoning that it was the price of business for eliminating their biggest headache.

Instead, the Giants bid against themselves for Bonds after failing to land an adequate replacement, then overpaid free-agent left-hander Barry Zito.

The contract language is still under discussion, according to the Daily News. The Giants also want protection if Bonds misses time due to court dates or encounters other legal trouble.

All this, to incur season-long wrath and ridicule from many fans outside the Bay Area and some inside the Bay Area as well.

All this to inject another dose of Bonds poison into a clubhouse that already is weary of the Barry circus, if not the man himself.

Or, will the Giants be swallowing in pill form?

Either way, no teammate of Bonds should give him so much as a sunflower seed next season, lest he be blamed for another positive drug test by No. 25.

No superstar, no record, is worth this hassle.

If the Giants had any spine, they would back out of their preliminary agreement with Bonds, throw a farewell party for his sycophants and acquire two lesser players to share left field.

Trot Nixon and Cliff Floyd remain free agents. The Cubs' Jacque Jones and Brewers' Geoff Jenkins and Kevin Mench are available in trades. A combination of two of those players might not equal Bonds statistically, but at least the Giants wouldn't lead the league in potential court appearances.

What could Bonds do if he were forced back into the free-agent market, sue?

Fat chance, but commissioner Bud Selig gladly would pay the Giants' legal fees if it meant saving the sport from embarrassment.

Attendance in San Francisco wouldn't suffer one bit, not with Zito under contract and the All-Star Game coming in July.

But the Giants, having made their choice, will get what they paid for -- another season of crisis management.

It's Jan. 11. Here we go again.

[Coffeybro]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16578364/


Celizic: Stick a fork in Bonds' Hall chances
Amphetamine report, and his reaction, proves he has zero character
OPINION
By Mike Celizic
Updated: 1:47 p.m. ET Jan 11, 2007
I’ve defended Barry Bonds in the past, as I have other players — including Mark McGwire — who took performance-enhancing drugs back when baseball had no rules against them. But I can’t defend him on his latest reported indiscretion.

And if any Hall of Fame voters needed another reason not to check Bonds’ name on the ballot when he comes up for election five years after he retires, they have it now. Even after baseball finally adopted a testing policy and last year added amphetamines to the list of banned substances, Bonds, says a published report, has tested positive. Not only that, he lied about it.

Bonds has always said, “I never tested positive.” If published reports are true — and this one likely is — he can’t say that anymore.

According to The New York Daily News, Bonds was caught with amphetamines in his system last year, a violation for which baseball’s drug policy imposes no suspension for a first-time offender. According to the newspaper, Bonds explained the positive test by resorting to his time-honored strategy – he blamed someone else.


If you’ll remember, as I’m sure you do, Bonds told that infamous grand jury investigating BALCO that he did use steroids, but he thought that the substances that were making him grow Popeye muscles were made of such legal ingredients as flaxseed oil. The people giving them to him said they didn’t contain steroids, he said, and that’s what he believed.

This time, he blamed a teammate, Mark Sweeney. In a story that only someone who still believes in the Easter Bunny would consider credible, Bonds, according to the newspaper, grabbed the stuff from Sweeney’s locker and took it, not knowing it contained a banned substance. Sweeney, if you can imagine this, objected to being accused of keeping jars of bennies in his locker and being made a scapegoat by his teammate; Bonds was forced to apologize, the report says.

Baseball’s Hall of Fame includes character as one of the criteria to be used to judge potential members. Football’s shrine doesn’t, the rules stating clearly that voters are to consider only what a player did on the field and disregard what he did off the field. Among the 77 percent of writers who didn’t vote for McGwire were undoubtedly many who used character – or lack of same – as a reason; McGwire was a mealy-mouthed weasel in front of Congress, and that showed bad character.

I don’t count what people do once they’re out of uniform, so I didn’t consider McGwires shameful performance in front of that Congressional subcommittee a factor when I voted for him.

But Bonds is still playing, and telling the big lie is a major character issue. It reaches the status of a mortal sin when the lie involves blaming an apparently innocent teammate. It is, in a word, disgusting.


Baseball has had its fair share of despicable human beings going back to Cap Anson, the 19th century star who was one of the people most responsible for banning African-Americans from the game. Ty Cobb was a miserable, misanthropic, racist s.o.b. Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle cheated on their wives at every opportunity, as did many, many others. Joe DiMaggio was a tightwad consumed with preserving a public image that didn’t match his private persona. Willie Mays was just grumpy.

In other words, baseball players are like everybody else; most are regular guys, but there are also plenty of irregular characters.

Bonds has been accused of an extramarital affair, but that’s hardly news; no social transgression in sports is more common that guys taking advantage of the favors offered to them by willing groupies. He’s also an exceptionally unpleasant person to deal with. From his rookie season, he’s treated the media and other outsiders as if they had communicable diseases. Even when he was being celebrated daily, he was miserable to deal with.

We’ve seen it before, and given his superhuman talent, were willing to let it slide when judging his career.

Even the steroids weren’t a bar to his getting in the Hall. Most writers had to face the fact that even if he hadn’t taken anything, he remained one of the all-time greats. They may have refused to elect him in his first year of eligibility as a protest against steroids, but they would have put him in the Hall because that’s where he belonged.

But this latest episode changes a lot. The steroids allegations go back to the days before baseball had any mechanism to keep them out of the game. And Bonds always had that line about never testing positive to fall back on.

Now he’s apparently been caught cheating even after a drug policy is in effect. And not only cheating, but lying and implicating teammates.

He’s a man who always talked about never putting anything in his body that could harm him. Then he told the grand jury that he had no idea what he was putting in his body. And last year, he apparently said he just grabbed a jar of something out of a teammate’s locker and swallowed it down without knowing what it was.

It’s not only a disgusting lie, it’s an amateur one. It’s the lie of someone who thinks he can get away with anything because he is, after all, the great Barry Bonds.

That shows a disregard not just for the rules of the game but for the rules of life. It speaks to character that needs to file for bankruptcy.

If the Hall of Fame is about character, then Barry Bonds has no place in it.

[Goten]

So now Amphetamines are a serious issue because Bonds used them?

Nice...in a matter of one day they went from being " no big deal " to something that warrants banishment from the HOF.

[registerthis]

I REALLY don't think you want to turn voting for the Hall into a litmus test of a player's character. Otherwise, about 50% of the current Hall members would have to be evicted.

That being said...Bonds really is a piece of selfish trash who cares about one thing and one thing only: Aaron's record, and his passing of it.

[Cedric]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16578364/

Todd could throw at his big head and become a fan legend. He might become the most popular player in the game.

I'm not advising for that though.

[Yachtzee]

Todd could throw at his big head and become a fan legend. He might become the most popular player in the game.

I'm not advising for that though.

Kind of hard to miss, isn't it.

[BenHayes]

Quick man hide my stash , here comes Barry and his sticky fingers.

[WVJulz]

[QUOTE=Dom Heffner;1225539]Put him in the hall. Gaylord Perry cheated, so everybody can.
And you know what yanks me about Gaylord Perry? He is one of the HOF members that said that Pete Rose doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. People who live in glass houses Gaylord. Remember that?
Julz :confused:

[Goten]

[QUOTE=Dom Heffner;1225539]Put him in the hall. Gaylord Perry cheated, so everybody can.
And you know what yanks me about Gaylord Perry? He is one of the HOF members that said that Pete Rose doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. People who live in glass houses Gaylord. Remember that?
Julz :confused:

ROFL, I remember that. He also just recently criticized mac.

It's like O.J. Simpson criticizing Scott Peterson...

[Goten]

Apparently Bonds denies naming Sweeney.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-bonds-amphetamines&prov=ap&type=lgns

[Degenerate39]

First of all why would you take a supplement from someone else's locker when you don't know what it is.

Secondly I wish Bonds would just retire and be done with the steroid scandal.

[Dom Heffner]

And you know what yanks me about Gaylord Perry? He is one of the HOF members that said that Pete Rose doesn't deserve to be in the HOF. People who live in glass houses Gaylord. Remember that?
Julz

It is a bit odd that Perry of all people would come out, though you have to admit, if Perry cheated, at least he did it on the field in front of two sets of eyes on every single pitch (umpire and batter) and 50,000 fans.

Mac and Bonds and Rose were in the shadows getting their game on.

[SeeinRed]

It is a bit odd that Perry of all people would come out, though you have to admit, if Perry cheated, at least he did it on the field in front of two sets of eyes on every single pitch (umpire and batter) and 50,000 fans.

Mac and Bonds and Rose were in the shadows getting their game on.

To me, it doesn't matter where it happened. What if Bonds had his personal trainer come out and shoot him up with some 'roids in a syringe with marked "Flu Shot" in front of all the fans just before the game? Does that make it better? If Perry cheated, its not like he didn't try to hide the fact that he cheated.

Cheating and betting can't be compared. The only question there is which is worse, but that question will only open up a new can of worms that we shouldn't open right now IMO. I am a huge supporter of Rose getting in the Hall, but there are plenty of other treads with those arguments in them. They always end up with somebody mad because the supporters come out and attack, not to mention the old here we go again feeling. There is enough filth in the Bonds topic to debate about without bringing in a Pete Rose argument. Again, just my opinion.

[Dom Heffner]

To me, it doesn't matter where it happened. What if Bonds had his personal trainer come out and shoot him up with some 'roids in a syringe with marked "Flu Shot" in front of all the fans just before the game? Does that make it better? If Perry cheated, its not like he didn't try to hide the fact that he cheated.

The flu shot analogy doesn't gel here, does it? I mean, Bonds never got a flu shot on the field (medicine or drugs are neverr administered in left field are they?), and even if he did there is no way to see into syringe.

How would Bonds ever get caught taking steroids instead of a flu shot? Does the umpire have a portable lab?

Perry had it out there every time he pitched. He could have gotten caught with one check of the baseball, while an umpire wouldn't have the first clue what is being shot into someone.

[SeeinRed]

The flu shot analogy doesn't gel here, does it? I mean, Bonds never got a flu shot on the field (medicine or drugs are neverr administered in left field are they?), and even if he did there is no way to see into syringe.


Its a hypothetical. I'm saying, IF Bonds took the shot in front of everyone, but in some way disguised it, does it make it better. If Bonds cheated in front of everyone, but hid the fact he was cheating, does that make it better. That is what Perry did.



How would Bonds ever get caught taking steroids instead of a flu shot? Does the umpire have a portable lab?

Perry had it out there every time he pitched. He could have gotten caught with one check of the baseball, while an umpire wouldn't have the first clue what is being shot into someone.

You answered that question here:


I mean, Bonds never got a flu shot on the field (medicine or drugs are neverr administered in left field are they?),

It would be quite obvious if you looked into it, but I digress.


You are looking too much into the plausibility of the hypothetical and not enough into the meaning. All I am saying is that Perry tried to hide the fact that he was cheating. He didn't want to get caught. Just because he tried to hide it in front of more people, and with a higher risk of getting caught doesn't make it better. What makes it better is that he didn't use steroids if you believe steroids are worse. To me its not in the where or how, its in the what. Both cheated. Both tried to hide it. The difference is in what they used to cheat.

[savafan]

You also have to look at the fact that one cheated to help his team win, the other cheated because he was tired of seeing white men like Ruth and McGwire hold records (According to Game of Shadows)

At what point does Selig just go ahead and institute the best interest of baseball clause?

Knowing what we know, if Bonds was a Cincinnati Red in 2007 would you cheer for him?

[vaticanplum]

Knowing what we know, if Bonds was a Cincinnati Red in 2007 would you cheer for him?

I wouldn't. And not because of character or blah blah blah. I just couldn't truly enjoy it if the team won.

[Goten]

You also have to look at the fact that one cheated to help his team win, the other cheated because he was tired of seeing white men like Ruth and McGwire hold records (According to Game of Shadows)

At what point does Selig just go ahead and institute the best interest of baseball clause?

Knowing what we know, if Bonds was a Cincinnati Red in 2007 would you cheer for him?

Taking steroids is cheating to win, regardless of the reasons you take them...

[Jpup]

If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying. :cool:

[Dom Heffner]

All I am saying is that Perry tried to hide the fact that he was cheating.

My problem is that some on here are saying well, cheating is cheating, and it isn't.

Perry gets a pass because his cheating is not the same as what Bonds and McGwire did. Should Perry be in the hall? That's a great question for another thread. To me, we are talking about whether steorid users belong in the hall, not whether cheaters do.

Perry occasionally cheated. Bonds cheated by getting up out of bed every day on roids.

Everything about his game was brought to another level, all the time.

Are you trying to say that Perry scuffed every single ball he ever threw? Did it help his arm strength? His fatigue? Did it help every single fast ball he ever threw?

It's not the same and I'm over trying to make the point.

My problem isn't simply that steroid users cheated- it's the manner in which they did and the results they produced.

Ken Caminiti won an MVP award while on steroids. He didn't win it because the ballparks were smaller and pitching was diluted.

[Goten]

My problem is that some on here are saying well, cheating is cheating, and it isn't.

Perry gets a pass because his cheating is not the same as what Bonds and McGwire did. Should Perry be in the hall? That's a great question for another thread. To me, we are talking about whether steorid users belong in the hall, not whether cheaters do.

Perry occasionally cheated. Bonds cheated by getting up out of bed every day on roids.

Everything about his game was brought to another level, all the time.

Are you trying to say that Perry scuffed every single ball he ever threw? Did it help his arm strength? His fatigue? Did it help every single fast ball he ever threw?

It's not the same and I'm over trying to make the point.

My problem isn't simply that steroid users cheated- it's the manner in which they did and the results they produced.

Ken Caminiti won an MVP award while on steroids. He didn't win it because the ballparks were smaller and pitching was diluted.

Actually, you aren't benefitting from steroids on a daily basis...

[jojo]

My problem is that some on here are saying well, cheating is cheating, and it isn't.

What you mean to say is that you find some forms of cheating to be perfectly acceptable while you find other forms of cheating distasteful. Fine, but you lose the right to argue from a moral high ground. Personally, that is a lot to willingly concede- in fact, to concede that point almost makes your position untenable from the get go (certainly it places your position in an undesirable starting point).


To me, we are talking about whether steorid users belong in the hall, not whether cheaters do.

You now have to essentially argue that there are varying degrees that integrity can be compromised. Good luck with that.


Perry occasionally cheated. Bonds cheated by getting up out of bed every day on roids.

Right...because Perry only cheated whenever he needed to throw his out pitch as well as every time he needed to throw a pitch to set up his out pitch because, well, his whole style was tailored to the use of an illegal pitch... Really what you are arguing is that since Perry only cheated during high leverage situations, its more acceptable. Pause for a moment and consider if that is really what you want to be arguing.......


It's not the same and I'm over trying to make the point. My problem isn't simply that steroid users cheated- it's the manner in which they did and the results they produced.

Sigh....I don't understand the lengths some go to split these kind of hairs in order to demonize steroids.... So its not that someone broke the rules to gain an advantage, it's how they broke the rules that matters.... There simply has to be more to it than moral outrage especially when in order to adopt such a stance one must first concede the moral high ground...


Ken Caminiti won an MVP award while on steroids. He didn't win it because the ballparks were smaller and pitching was diluted.

He won the MVP because of great defense and the numbers he put up against pitchers who were also juiced on steroids in an environment where superior fitness, shrinking ballparks, and diluted pitching contributed to greater run scoring....