Cold Pizza reports Jerry Narron names Ryan Freel starting CF

[Highlifeman21]

Jay Crawford just reported on Cold Pizza that according to Jerry Narron, Ryan Freel will be the team's starting CF, and Ken Griffey Jr will be the team's starting RF.

Crawford attributed Narron as saying "Ryan Freel makes us better up the middle."

Jerry Narron is clueless.

Chris Denorfia or Josh Hamilton make us better up the middle.

Ryan Freel is our biggest piece of trade bait, and is better suited as a super sub.

[Joseph]

I heard this last night on that Reds Season preview thing when Brantley made the same claim. I love Freel intensity, but it will not play out well over a full season, or at least thats my belief.

[dougdirt]

This was mentioned all over this board yesterday?

[flyer85]

It may be moot anyway because I am highly doubtful Jr is ready to go on opening day.

In addition, unless Jr is on the DL it seems like Denorfia has a ticket to AAA.

[TeamSelig]

Ryan Freel can't play a whole season: myth

[Razor Shines]

Jay Crawford just reported on Cold Pizza that according to Jerry Narron, Ryan Freel will be the team's starting CF, and Ken Griffey Jr will be the team's starting RF.

Crawford attributed Narron as saying "Ryan Freel makes us better up the middle."

Jerry Narron is clueless.

Chris Denorfia or Josh Hamilton make us better up the middle.

Ryan Freel is our biggest piece of trade bait, and is better suited as a super sub.

I like Freel as super sub also, but I really like Jr. in RF. It's not exactly what we wanted but it's a nice start. I am betting that if Hamilton continues to hit once the season starts he'll have a pretty good shot at starting in CF before too long. Of course he's going to have to get some ABs to do that, so maybe he'll get some starts against right handers early on.

[Highlifeman21]

I was probably out of the loop yesterday, and I read most of that thread about Griffey being the new RF, but I hadn't seen if Narron had named a starting CF until about 15 mins ago.

[Chip R]

Just cause he's starting doesn't mean he's going to play every day.

[Red Leader]

I like Freel as super sub also, but I really like Jr. in RF. It's not exactly what we wanted but it's a nice start. I am betting that if Hamilton continues to hit once the season starts he'll have a pretty good shot at starting in CF before too long. Of course he's going to have to get some ABs to do that, so maybe he'll get some starts against right handers early on.

My belief is that the Reds will open with Dunn in LF, Freel in CF, and Hamilton in RF.

When Jr. comes back in late April or May (and you can just bet he'll stay out until he's 100%), Hamilton might move to CF and Griffey to RF with Freel being the super-sub again. I wouldn't be suprised if Hamilton / Freel because L/R platoon partners if Griffey were healthy. Personally, if Hamilton's going well, I'd want to see him get exposure to lefties as well. That would further advance his development, but I doubt Hamilton starts everyday at least until the All-Star break.

[pedro]

I think Ryan Freel has earned the opportunity to be in CF on opening day.

Where it goes from there depends on how healthy everyone is and how they play.

[Razor Shines]

My belief is that the Reds will open with Dunn in LF, Freel in CF, and Hamilton in RF.

When Jr. comes back in late April or May (and you can just bet he'll stay out until he's 100%), Hamilton might move to CF and Griffey to RF with Freel being the super-sub again. I wouldn't be suprised if Hamilton / Freel because L/R platoon partners if Griffey were healthy. Personally, if Hamilton's going well, I'd want to see him get exposure to lefties as well. That would further advance his development, but I doubt Hamilton starts everyday at least until the All-Star break.

I agree, if Jr. isn't ready for opening day. And if it happens that way I really have no problem with it.

[rotnoid]

I think Ryan Freel has earned the opportunity to be in CF on opening day.

Where it goes from there depends on how healthy everyone is and how they play.

Namely Ryan Freel. While I like his intensity and grit, he has a tendency to rack up nagging injuries of his own. Not to mention that he trends toward slump when playing everyday. I'd like to see him buck the trend, but I'm not convinced he can run out there everyday.

[REDREAD]

I think Ryan Freel has earned the opportunity to be in CF on opening day.

Where it goes from there depends on how healthy everyone is and how they play.

I agree 100%. The job should be Freel's to lose.

If Freel stumbles, then you think about Hamilton or Deno.

I'm not Freel's biggest fan, but he's the best of the three options.

[Chip R]

I'd like to see him buck the trend, but I'm not convinced he can run out there everyday.


Maybe he should take a page from Dunn and Jr.'s book and walk out there. It'd save his energy. ;)

[rotnoid]

Maybe he should take a page from Dunn and Jr.'s book and walk out there. It'd save his energy. ;)

Note to self: edit posts for literal and sarcastic meaning before posting.

[dougdirt]

Ryan Freel can't play a whole season: myth

Ryan Freel Pro seasons (including minor league seasons that are 144 games long): 12
Ryan Freel pro seasons playing at least 110 games in a season: 3

25% of the time he plays a "full season".

1995: 65 games
1996: 104 games
1997: 94 games
1998: 103 games
1999: 31 games
2000: 96 games
2001: 94 games
2002: 119 games
2003: 97 games
2004: 143 games
2005: 108 games
2006: 132 games

I think there is more fact to that statement than anything

[TOBTTReds]

Jerry Narron is clueless.



I don't get this (though I do agree he is generally clueless). Leaving Griffey in CF would make him clueless. Just because Freel is trade bait doesn't mean that he shouldn't start him. Anyway, I don't mind seeing Freel in the lineup most of the time. I AM SURE, that if Freel is the opening day starter in CF, our 4th OF will get plenty of playing time.

[PickOff]

I think Ryan Freel has earned the opportunity to be in CF on opening day.

Where it goes from there depends on how healthy everyone is and how they play.

I think he has too, but Narron must also see the need for a leadoff guy, and who on the Reds is better suited for leadoff than Ryan Freel? Not Hamilton, not Denorfia, not Gonzo, not EE, not Phillips....okay maybe Hatte or Conine - we all know the wheels they've got.

And Narron and Co. have seen the ground he can cover in center.

They are simply at their best with Freel in the leadoff spot.

[PuffyPig]

Ryan Freel Pro seasons (including minor league seasons that are 144 games long): 12
Ryan Freel pro seasons playing at least 110 games in a season: 3

25% of the time he plays a "full season".

1995: 65 games
1996: 104 games
1997: 94 games
1998: 103 games
1999: 31 games
2000: 96 games
2001: 94 games
2002: 119 games
2003: 97 games
2004: 143 games
2005: 108 games
2006: 132 games

I think there is more fact to that statement than anything

But he's done so 2 of the last three seasons, missing the other one by 2 games.

[I(heart)Freel]

The thing about Freel as a starter is that he also answers that nagging question of "who hits lead-off on this team?"

I'm just not sure on the order without him in there.

And yes, while Freel's style brings with it a certain level of nagging injury, that shouldn't preclude him from being a starter. It should just mean that we need to prepare for those needed days off. I think with Hamilton's and - to some extent - Junior's flexibility, we can do that.

[KoryMac5]

I don't mind having Freel in the lineup, the thing I do mind is the logic Narron uses to make the choice. JR has been injured so Freel gives us the best chance up the middle. Yet Freel only has 19 AB's because of a hammy that has been bothering him. Seems like a double standard that penalizes Deno and Hamilton.

[edabbs44]

But he's done so 2 of the last three seasons, missing the other one by 2 games.

Freel post all star break 2006: .238/.340/.350
Freel post all star break 2005: .255/.336/.340

[paulrichjr]

From the Rob Neyer Blog


http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=2805176&name=Neyer_Rob

For Junior, a move past dueposted: Monday, March 19, 2007 | Print Entry

If Ken Griffey's healthy enough to play on Opening Day, he'll be in right field. This is actually a good thing, as Griffey has absolutely no business in center field any more. According to Baseball Prospectus, he was 29 runs worse than average over the last two seasons. According to John Dewan's enhanced plus/minus system, Griffey was 24 plays below average in 2005, and 27 plays below average in 2006. (And he totaled only 224 games in the outfield in those seasons.)
You can say what you'd like about fielding metrics, and admittedly Griffey rarely looked great, statistically, even when he was winning all those Gold Gloves. Fielding stats have come a long way in the last five years, though, and today the evidence is overwhelming: Griffey is now a lousy center fielder who would cost his team a couple of wins if he spent a whole season out there.

But don't think the Reds have wised up. As manager Jerry Narron says, "We would have loved for him to be available Opening Day to play center field -- it just didn't work out." Which I suppose means that we might actually see him in center field again at some point this season. And next season. And perhaps even the season after that, if the Reds exercise their $16.5 million option for 2009. Which presumably they won't do, but then again you never know. With players like Griffey, sometimes emotion gets the better of reason.

[MartyFan]

As much as I love him, there are two things about Ryan Freel that make him an unrealistic option as an every day CF for the Reds.

1) He is dangerous. His all out style of play is dangerous to others around him as he often ignores or misses being calleed off of pop ups and many times he has come close to puling and Austin Kearns when charging in or to RF or LF for a ball.

2) He is not durable enough to play the way he does and last more than 2/3 of a season (if that) in the role of an every day player.

Keep him at Super Sub...

If Jr. is on the DL have and OF of Dunn, Hamilton and Deno...when Jr. comes back have him go to RF and have an OF of Dunn, Hamilton and Junior.

[Wheelhouse]

Jay Crawford just reported on Cold Pizza that according to Jerry Narron, Ryan Freel will be the team's starting CF, and Ken Griffey Jr will be the team's starting RF.

Crawford attributed Narron as saying "Ryan Freel makes us better up the middle."

Jerry Narron is clueless.

Chris Denorfia or Josh Hamilton make us better up the middle.

Ryan Freel is our biggest piece of trade bait, and is better suited as a super sub.

Jerry Narron is not clueless--in fact, he has much more of a clue than he is given credit for. If he's trying to make this change with minimal barking from Griffey, he's best off in naming a "starter", and that, a starter Griffey has played with and seen make great plays. In fact, Freel will play some CF and Hamilton will play some CF, and whoever makes the team of Denorfia or Hopper will play some CF. Freel will get plenty of rest and Denorfia, if he makes the club, will get his share of innings in CF. You can't tell Griffey "We're going to platoon a bunch of guys in lieu of you." It's a tricky thing dealing with Jr., and Narron is doing it very well.

[Joseph]

5 OFers, 3 spots

Freel: 125 games
Dunn: 155 games
Junior: 100 Games
Deno: 65 Games
Hamilton: 41 Games

Granted these are starts, Hamilton could skew drastically one way or the other dependent upon his ability to hit non-spring training pitching, but these are my predictions for the year to come.

As always they are based solely on my interpretation of random fact, gut feeling, and this intricate dice rolling program that me a Coffeybro use to play Star Trek RPG games together. Ok, kidding about the last part.

[dougdirt]

But he's done so 2 of the last three seasons, missing the other one by 2 games.

Even so, he has missed an average of 34 games each of the last 3 years. Thats about a month and a half worth of games. I went very easy with the 110 games.

[The_jbh]

I dont think this necessarily means he is starting everyday, he is just starting opening day...

I'd be willing to bet Freel still spells Phillips and EE occasionally and gets atleast 2 days a week off.

I think people are reading into Freel being named the "starting CF" a little too much

[Chip R]

Jerry Narron is not clueless--in fact, he has much more of a clue than he is given credit for. If he's trying to make this change with minimal barking from Griffey, he's best off in naming a "starter", and that, a starter Griffey has played with and seen make great plays. In fact, Freel will play some CF and Hamilton will play some CF, and whoever makes the team of Denorfia or Hopper will play some CF. Freel will get plenty of rest and Denorfia, if he makes the club, will get his share of innings in CF. You can't tell Griffey "We're going to platoon a bunch of guys in lieu of you." It's a tricky thing dealing with Jr., and Narron is doing it very well.


I think people are reading too much into "Freel is a starter" news. Just because Freel's going to start on Opening Day doesn't mean he's going to be out there every day. I haven't heard anything from the Reds that differes from the view that Freel can't play every day because of his style of play. And we know Narron likes to use many, many different lineups. So while Freel is probably going to get the bulk of the playing time in CF, he's also going to be held out of some games because the Reds think he can't play a full year. Also he may get some nagging injury like this hammy that keeps him out of the lineup for several days.

[edabbs44]

5 OFers, 3 spots

Freel: 125 games
Dunn: 155 games
Junior: 100 Games
Deno: 65 Games
Hamilton: 41 Games

Granted these are starts, Hamilton could skew drastically one way or the other dependent upon his ability to hit non-spring training pitching, but these are my predictions for the year to come.

As always they are based solely on my interpretation of random fact, gut feeling, and this intricate dice rolling program that me a Coffeybro use to play Star Trek RPG games together. Ok, kidding about the last part.

Don't forget about Conine. :)

[vic715]

I like having Freel in the lineup because he is the only legit leadoff hitter on the team. Now to make this team a whole lot better defensively I would move EE to 1st and put Freel on 3rd.This gives Hamilton and Deno a chance to be in there. A lot of you on here will balk at moving EE but the guy did lead all MLB 3rd basemen in errors last year and only played about 2/3s of the season there. I would almost bet he'll eventually end up there or in the outfield anyway in the future.This also makes the lineup a little younger too not to mention making the bench a little better with Conine and Hatteburg.
just an opinion.

[Red Leader]

I I would move EE to 1st and put Freel on 3rd.This gives Hamilton and Deno a chance to be in there. A lot of you on here will balk at moving EE but the guy did lead all MLB 3rd basemen in errors last year and only played about 2/3s of the season there. I would almost bet he'll eventually end up there or in the outfield anyway in the future.

yeah, because what a player does in the field his rookie year tells you how he'll perform there the rest of his career. :rolleyes:

If we had acquired Ryan Zimmerman in the Kearns / Lopez deal I might have thought about moving EE to 1st or to the OF, but we didn't. Edwin has exceptional range at 3B and he will only get better.

In the near future you can't move EE to 1B because that's where Votto is going to play. The OF looks to be pretty solidified as well for the next 2-3 years with Bruce on the horizon and Dunn, Hamilton, Grifffey, Freel and Denorfia already ready.

[bucksfan2]

5 OFers, 3 spots

Freel: 125 games
Dunn: 155 games
Junior: 100 Games
Deno: 65 Games
Hamilton: 41 Games

Granted these are starts, Hamilton could skew drastically one way or the other dependent upon his ability to hit non-spring training pitching, but these are my predictions for the year to come.

As always they are based solely on my interpretation of random fact, gut feeling, and this intricate dice rolling program that me a Coffeybro use to play Star Trek RPG games together. Ok, kidding about the last part.

Hamilton has to get in 100+ games if you ask me. I dont care how they do it. They could use injury rehab, starting, etc. Hamilton is WAY too talented to only get 41 games.

As for Freel's number of games played in the past years, thats a little misleading. You get credit for a game if you are a defensive replacement, pinch runner, pinch hitter, etc.

[pedro]

I like having Freel in the lineup because he is the only legit leadoff hitter on the team. Now to make this team a whole lot better defensively I would move EE to 1st and put Freel on 3rd.This gives Hamilton and Deno a chance to be in there. A lot of you on here will balk at moving EE but the guy did lead all MLB 3rd basemen in errors last year and only played about 2/3s of the season there. I would almost bet he'll eventually end up there or in the outfield anyway in the future.This also makes the lineup a little younger too not to mention making the bench a little better with Conine and Hatteburg.
just an opinion.

Ryan Freel at 3rd makes EE look like Brooks Robinson.

[westofyou]

Ryan Freel at 3rd makes EE look like Brooks Robinson.

Ryan Freel at third makes RFS long for Hick Carpenter.

[edabbs44]

Hamilton has to get in 100+ games if you ask me. I dont care how they do it. They could use injury rehab, starting, etc. Hamilton is WAY too talented to only get 41 games.

As for Freel's number of games played in the past years, thats a little misleading. You get credit for a game if you are a defensive replacement, pinch runner, pinch hitter, etc.

Hamilton might be talented, but he also has less than 100 games above Single A in his career. Let's see how he performs before guaranteeing him 100 games.

[berryluther]

Naming Freel the starting CF doesnt decrease the Reds trade leverage like naming him a sub would.

[Falls City Beer]

Naming Freel the starting CF doesnt decrease the Reds trade leverage like naming him a sub would.

BING--motherbleepin'--O!

Now that's a shrewd dealer. I like how you think.

[edabbs44]

Naming Freel the starting CF doesnt decrease the Reds trade leverage like naming him a sub would.

Now let's see them trade him...but you have a point.

It depends on whether that is their motive or potential motive.

[maniem]

When Freel goes down with the inevitable injury, who on this team will leadoff? The best option is to slide Phillips, he of the .320 OBP, into the leadoff spot. I don't know about you, but that scares the crap out of me. This team was at its best last year when Freel and FeLo were 1-2 in the lineup and getting on base and scoring runs. When Freel goes down or doesn't play, this team will really struggle to score runs.

[Kc61]

The super sub talk, IMO, is nonsense.

What does it mean? He only plays when someone is hurt? He only plays in Sunday specials?

Play him three times a week? If he fills in for EE at third, or Phillips at second, we will hear that Narron is pulling the plug on the great young infielders. Put him in to spell a power outfielder? That won't go over big.

Give him 200 at bats? He's much better than that.

Super sub is a meaningless phrase. It means you are on the bench waiting for an opportunity.

Freel has more than earned a starting spot and Narron is completely correct that he belongs in CF. Hamilton will probably get his at bats subbing for Griffey who is frequently hurt, or occasionally for Freel in CF.

Deno? Fine for a fourth or, more likely, fifth outfielder. He's a singles hitter with speed, no problem keeping him on the team, but to award him a starting spot? Sorry, I'll take Freel right now.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

I just love how even when Narron does something that we've been calling for for so long, he can still get criticized. Aside from signing an ace pitcher in the offseason, wasn't moving Griffey to RF one of the top things on most of your wishlists? And now when Narron gets it done, and handles the situation wisely by not replacing the HOFer with a kid who hasn't played in the bigs or another kid whos seen only limited time, but replacing him with a guy he's seen make the big plays in the outfield, Narron is called clueless.

[Falls City Beer]

I just love how even when Narron does something that we've been calling for for so long, he can still get criticized. Aside from signing an ace pitcher in the offseason, wasn't moving Griffey to RF one of the top things on most of your wishlists? And now when Narron gets it done, and handles the situation wisely by not replacing the HOFer with a kid who hasn't played in the bigs or another kid whos seen only limited time, but replacing him with a guy he's seen make the big plays in the outfield, Narron is called clueless.

Heck, I'm delighted with this move, if true. But I'm only speaking for myself.

[redsfan30]

I just love how even when Narron does something that we've been calling for for so long, he can still get criticized. Aside from signing an ace pitcher in the offseason, wasn't moving Griffey to RF one of the top things on most of your wishlists? And now when Narron gets it done, and handles the situation wisely by not replacing the HOFer with a kid who hasn't played in the bigs or another kid whos seen only limited time, but replacing him with a guy he's seen make the big plays in the outfield, Narron is called clueless.

:clap:

Couldn't have said it better myself. People have been calling for this for over a year now and when it finally happens, Narron's clueless??? :rolleyes:

[berryluther]

When Freel goes down with the inevitable injury, who on this team will leadoff? The best option is to slide Phillips, he of the .320 OBP, into the leadoff spot. I don't know about you, but that scares the crap out of me. This team was at its best last year when Freel and FeLo were 1-2 in the lineup and getting on base and scoring runs. When Freel goes down or doesn't play, this team will really struggle to score runs.


Its only leadoff once a game the rest of the time its just another spot in the lineup.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Its only leadoff once a game the rest of the time its just another spot in the lineup.

But, he will always hit in that spot before the run producers in the lineup come to bat.

[James B.]

Don't forget about Conine. :)

Who!:D

[hebroncougar]

The thing about Freel as a starter is that he also answers that nagging question of "who hits lead-off on this team?"

I'm just not sure on the order without him in there.

And yes, while Freel's style brings with it a certain level of nagging injury, that shouldn't preclude him from being a starter. It should just mean that we need to prepare for those needed days off. I think with Hamilton's and - to some extent - Junior's flexibility, we can do that.

Exactly what I was going to say. If Freel doesn't play, who bats leadoff?

[bucksfan2]

Hamilton might be talented, but he also has less than 100 games above Single A in his career. Let's see how he performs before guaranteeing him 100 games.

I realize that but you cant just let this guy sit on the bench. I would rather see Hamilton play, struggle, but show signs of potential, than see Freel do what he does every year.

[Caveman Techie]

I realize that but you cant just let this guy sit on the bench. I would rather see Hamilton play, struggle, but show signs of potential, than see Freel do what he does every year.

Actually I kind of like watching Freel do what he does, he has been one of the few bright spots on this team the last few years. I still get goosebumps thinking about "The Catch" last year.

Now with that all said I want to see Hamilton get his shot. The guy is a rare talent that could (note the could not will) pay huge dividends for the Reds.

[reds44]

Jay Crawford just reported on Cold Pizza that according to Jerry Narron, Ryan Freel will be the team's starting CF, and Ken Griffey Jr will be the team's starting RF.

Crawford attributed Narron as saying "Ryan Freel makes us better up the middle."

Jerry Narron is clueless.

Chris Denorfia or Josh Hamilton make us better up the middle.

Ryan Freel is our biggest piece of trade bait, and is better suited as a super sub.

So Narron does the right thing and moves Griffey to RF, and there are people STILL complaining. Hamilton is going to see more then his share of playing time.

[edabbs44]

I realize that but you cant just let this guy sit on the bench. I would rather see Hamilton play, struggle, but show signs of potential, than see Freel do what he does every year.

I'm not saying he should never play. I'm saying we should wait and see.

[Jerry Narron]

Ryan Freel is an excellent defensive player and will cover a lot of ground in CF.

[I(heart)Freel]

Its only leadoff once a game the rest of the time its just another spot in the lineup.

If that were true, why did every other player struggle in that role last year when Freel was out?

There is something to a true lead-off guy. There just is.

[BRM]

I just read through the thread again and I only see ONE person complaining about this. And he didn't even complain about Junior moving to RF. His complaint was against who Narron named as the replacement in CF. I think lots of people are getting fired up here over a little bit of nothing. I haven't read any posts claiming moving Junior to RF is a bad move.

[reds44]

If that were true, why did every other player struggle in that role last year when Freel was out?

There is something to a true lead-off guy. There just is.
Brandon Phillips absolutely destroyed the ball leading off last year.

[TRF]

Brandon Phillips absolutely destroyed the ball leading off last year.

Small sample, but yeah, he sure did.

[Natty Redlocks]

Exactly what I was going to say. If Freel doesn't play, who bats leadoff?

I'd like to see Hamilton lead off.

[KronoRed]

I'd bet money Gonzo would lead off.

[reds44]

I'd like to see Hamilton lead off.
Why? What has he proven to deserve that role?

[pedro]

I'd bet money Gonzo would lead off.

I don't think so. It'd be Phillips.

[Doc. Scott]

I would rather the Reds didn't start Hamilton on Opening Day. Let him get used to the big-league routine for a few days or so before you stick him in the batter's box against Carlos Zambrano already.

He's done so well thus far. Why jeopardize his momentum?

[Highlifeman21]

I don't get this (though I do agree he is generally clueless). Leaving Griffey in CF would make him clueless. Just because Freel is trade bait doesn't mean that he shouldn't start him. Anyway, I don't mind seeing Freel in the lineup most of the time. I AM SURE, that if Freel is the opening day starter in CF, our 4th OF will get plenty of playing time.

Denorfia and Hamilton are much better defensively than Freel.

I would even wager that Denorfia and Hamilton are better offensively than Freel.

The only thing Freel has going for him is the whole scrappy factor.

That and his fetish with caught stealing and running into outs while the ball's in play.

[reds44]

Denorfia and Hamilton are much better defensively than Freel.

I would even wager that Denorfia and Hamilton are better offensively than Freel.

The only thing Freel has going for him is the whole scrappy factor.

That and his fetish with caught stealing and running into outs while the ball's in play.
Have you ever even seen Hamilton play defense? Have ever seen Hamilton play at all?

[Redlegs]

I think Chris Denorfia will bat his way out of the lineup when it's said and done. I'm eager to see Josh Hamilton play once the bell rings. Hopefully he can continue to play at the level he has in the spring. Seeing is believing in the regular season, however. See: Brandon Larson.

[Highlifeman21]

:clap:

Couldn't have said it better myself. People have been calling for this for over a year now and when it finally happens, Narron's clueless??? :rolleyes:

Like I said, we have better options than Ryan Freel on this team.

They are named Chris Denorfia and Josh Hamilton.

[Redlegs]

Denorfia and Hamilton are much better defensively than Freel.
Do either of them make the catch on Pujols last year? Maybe, maybe not, but the fact is Freel is above average in the field and to act as if Freel is an average defensive player is inaccurate, IMO.




I would even wager that Denorfia and Hamilton are better offensively than Freel. The only thing Freel has going for him is the whole scrappy factor.
Disagree here too. What has Deno accomplished at the plate in the majors to form your opinion? What about Hamilton? Also, don't underestimate the "scrappy factor" as it can ignite a ballclub.


That and his fetish with caught stealing and running into outs while the ball's in play.Not a Freel fan, I take it.

[vic715]

yeah, because what a player does in the field his rookie year tells you how he'll perform there the rest of his career. :rolleyes:

If we had acquired Ryan Zimmerman in the Kearns / Lopez deal I might have thought about moving EE to 1st or to the OF, but we didn't. Edwin has exceptional range at 3B and he will only get better.

In the near future you can't move EE to 1B because that's where Votto is going to play. The OF looks to be pretty solidified as well for the next 2-3 years with Bruce on the horizon and Dunn, Hamilton, Grifffey, Freel and Denorfia already ready.

We'll cross the Votto bridge in the future in the meantime I want to win in 2007 and Putting EE on 1st base with his great range would be an asset.Besides his range isn't the problem, its what happens when he picks it up. Lopez had good range too,its what happened when he got to it that made him not so exceptional.

[Highlifeman21]

Have you ever even seen Hamilton play defense? Have ever seen Hamilton play at all?

Hamilton might quite possibly be our best "complete" OF right now.

The kid has shown he's changed his approach at the plate, and he has a better understanding of the strike zone, as well as the ability to work the count into his favor to either get a favorable pitch or work a walk.

The kid's also shown that he has great wheels, and defensive instincts on par with Chris Denorfia. He takes great paths to balls, and has a howitzer for an arm.

So, as a total "complete" package, he's our best OF.

Adam Dunn is still our best OF, but Josh Hamilton honestly right now is probably #2, then with arguments for Denorfia and Griffey for #3. Ryan Freel is at best our #5 best OF. Great wheels, but he just has too many mental mistakes, and his defense is suspect.

I've seen plenty of Josh Hamilton this spring, and I love what I see.

[Redlegs]

I guess I'm missing something on Denorfia. Many posters have him figured in to the thick of things this year and I'm not so sure. He brings a lot of speed to the table and will serve well as a late inning defensive replacement for Dunn, but he has no pop whatsoever. At least I haven't seen it. I see a slap hitter who's going to bat around .260 for the season. Those attributes may not benefit the Reds considering the ball park they play in calls for power. I really hope I'm off the mark on my assesment of Deno.

[reds44]

Hamilton might quite possibly be our best "complete" OF right now.

The kid has shown he's changed his approach at the plate, and he has a better understanding of the strike zone, as well as the ability to work the count into his favor to either get a favorable pitch or work a walk.

The kid's also shown that he has great wheels, and defensive instincts on par with Chris Denorfia. He takes great paths to balls, and has a howitzer for an arm.So, as a total "complete" package, he's our best OF.

Adam Dunn is still our best OF, but Josh Hamilton honestly right now is probably #2, then with arguments for Denorfia and Griffey for #3. Ryan Freel is at best our #5 best OF. Great wheels, but he just has too many mental mistakes, and his defense is suspect.

I've seen plenty of Josh Hamilton this spring, and I love what I see.
It's spring training. Just keep repeating that to yourself. Have you actually seen with your own eyes Hamilton play defense, or just seen his stats?


I would even wager that Denorfia and Hamilton are better offensively than Freel. The only thing Freel has going for him is the whole scrappy factor.
What have either of these guys ever done to make you say such things?

I don't get it. We all love Hamilton's talent. Let's not make him out to be something he's never proven to be though.

[Redlegs]

I've seen plenty of Josh Hamilton this spring, and I love what I see.

I'm pulling for Hamilton like crazy. Hope he continues to shine all the way through the season. Often times, spring numbers don't mean crap, but this guy was the number one overall pick in the draft so hopefully he's an exception.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

We'll cross the Votto bridge in the future in the meantime I want to win in 2007 and Putting EE on 1st base with his great range would be an asset.Besides his range isn't the problem, its what happens when he picks it up. Lopez had good range too,its what happened when he got to it that made him not so exceptional.

And what happens when you want to win in 2008? You act as if players take kindly to being moved all over the place. Moving him to first, then somewhere else the next year because a prospect comes up, isn't going to work.

[coachw513]

Hamilton might quite possibly be our best "complete" OF right now.

The kid has shown he's changed his approach at the plate, and he has a better understanding of the strike zone, as well as the ability to work the count into his favor to either get a favorable pitch or work a walk.

The kid's also shown that he has great wheels, and defensive instincts on par with Chris Denorfia. He takes great paths to balls, and has a howitzer for an arm.

So, as a total "complete" package, he's our best OF.

Adam Dunn is still our best OF, but Josh Hamilton honestly right now is probably #2, then with arguments for Denorfia and Griffey for #3. Ryan Freel is at best our #5 best OF. Great wheels, but he just has too many mental mistakes, and his defense is suspect.

I've seen plenty of Josh Hamilton this spring, and I love what I see.

Didn't we all love Brandon Larson when he was tearing the cover off the ball in spring training too :confused:

I'm pullin' for Hamilton as much as I've rooted for any player in my life...it's such a potentially great story...but he hasn't had 1 major league official AB and we've annointed him as our #2 outfielder :bang:

The continuing trend, out with the old, in with the new...it's the backup QB syndrome...he's the best thing around until he actually plays and we see for ourselves why he was the backup QB...

Ryan Freel is the obvious (and IMHO best) choice to start in CF in April...if Freel is the 5th best OF we have, then we're a heck of a lot better than I realized...does that mean that Hamilton, Conine, Denorfia and Crosby (oh heavens :eek: ) won't get lots of AB's??...of course not, if only for Narron's desire to give his backups lots of playing time (even at the expense of some putrid Sunday specials :angry: )

And allow me to be the first to question how ANY of us can ascertain if Josh Hamilton is any good as an outfielder unless we've spent every day watching practice after practice...relying on rumor and scouting reports of why the guy was special 7 years ago isn't really cutting it...I respectfully submit we all settle down a bit and allow the Hamilton hype machine to get an oil change...

[vic715]

And what happens when you want to win in 2008? You act as if players take kindly to being moved all over the place. Moving him to first, then somewhere else the next year because a prospect comes up, isn't going to work.

If he is butchering up the defense are you going to care if he doesn't like being moved. Why do so many on this board want to see Griffey moved to RF? Does anyone really care if he doesn't like it? I don't because I think its best for the Reds to move him there.Prospects are what they are,prospects. If Votto pans out in 2008 then the Reds have a situation. Something like they have in CF this year.I'd like to see Hamilton and Denorfia both get a shot but this team needs Freel leading off and my opinion may not be to some peoples liking but 3rd base is the best option. It worked well for Tony Perez to move to 1st and it won't hurt EE either.

[Highlifeman21]

I'm discouraged greatly by how this organization has given up on Chris Denorfia.

I'm fine with Dunn in LF and Griffey in RF.

The problem lies with our CF.

Ryan Freel shouldn't be our everyday CF.

We have 2 better options than Ryan Freel defensively.

Offensively, we have an unknown, and someone who will put up similar numbers, if not better than Ryan Freel.

It just makes too much sense to me to go with our best defensive option(s), while not sacrificing offense.

[edabbs44]

I'm discouraged greatly by how this organization has given up on Chris Denorfia.

I'm fine with Dunn in LF and Griffey in RF.

The problem lies with our CF.

Ryan Freel shouldn't be our everyday CF.

We have 2 better options than Ryan Freel defensively.

Offensively, we have an unknown, and someone who will put up similar numbers, if not better than Ryan Freel.

It just makes too much sense to me to go with our best defensive option(s), while not sacrificing offense.

A trade would make a lot of sense...let's hope he's working the phones.

[TeamSelig]

Ryan Freel Pro seasons (including minor league seasons that are 144 games long): 12
Ryan Freel pro seasons playing at least 110 games in a season: 3

25% of the time he plays a "full season".

1995: 65 games
1996: 104 games
1997: 94 games
1998: 103 games
1999: 31 games
2000: 96 games
2001: 94 games
2002: 119 games
2003: 97 games
2004: 143 games
2005: 108 games
2006: 132 games

I think there is more fact to that statement than anything

How many of those seasons has he been a starter from the beginning to the end of the season?

[BRM]

I guess I'm missing something on Denorfia. Many posters have him figured in to the thick of things this year and I'm not so sure. He brings a lot of speed to the table and will serve well as a late inning defensive replacement for Dunn, but he has no pop whatsoever. At least I haven't seen it. I see a slap hitter who's going to bat around .260 for the season. Those attributes may not benefit the Reds considering the ball park they play in calls for power. I really hope I'm off the mark on my assesment of Deno.

If Deno is a slap hitter, so is Freel. Those two are actually pretty similar hitters. Neither has much power, both are basically singles hitters that can take walks, and both have good speed.

Denorfia hasn't had much of an opportunity yet to prove himself in the majors but he did hit very well at the end of last season when he saw semi-regular playing time. My guess is he'd at least provide league average offense and above average defense in CF if given the regular job.

[mth123]

I guess I'm missing something on Denorfia. Many posters have him figured in to the thick of things this year and I'm not so sure. He brings a lot of speed to the table and will serve well as a late inning defensive replacement for Dunn, but he has no pop whatsoever. At least I haven't seen it. I see a slap hitter who's going to bat around .260 for the season. Those attributes may not benefit the Reds considering the ball park they play in calls for power. I really hope I'm off the mark on my assesment of Deno.

The Deno no power thing is a bit erroneous.

Slg % 2005 AA in 188 ABs - .564
Slg % 2005 AAA in 323 ABs - .505
Slg % 2006 AAA in 312 ABs - .484

Add in OBPs of .391, .391 and .409 respectively there is a lot of offensive potential to go with excellent defense and generally acknowledged fundamental play. In my view, this is another case of a capable guy that the team controls for his cheap pre-arb and free agent years who will be here in the 2009 potentially contending years. He needs some chance to play as well.

Of the 3, Freel is the least valuable to the future of this team. He's 31, will be expensive after this season and the knock on his baserunning is very real. I don't place much value on the SBs he gets (unless he's on my fantasy team) and the all too frequent outs he makes in the process are extremely harmful. He has the least power potential of the three. I think he's a decent player overall and his versatility is one of the reasons why. I don't mind him continuing to get his 450 ABs for now, but there needs to be a changing of the guard this season IMO.

All that said, if Hamilton is still hitting when the season starts, I have him in there most days somewhere until he stops for an extended period. Maybe JR gets Wally Pipped;) . (Its a joke don't get all uptight. OK?.)

Its nice to have three desirable options making the decision hard as opposed to the pitching staff where there are an abundance of equally bad options making the decision hard.

Seems like the OF abundance needs to be converted to a good option on the pitching side if somehow possible.

[Dracodave]

Seems like the OF abundance needs to be converted to a good option on the pitching side if somehow possible.


Freel or Deno could fetch a fringe starter for a team.

Thinking back to the Florida/Deno rumor, I understand the lack of a trade there from Floridas end. Why give up pitching for anything? Expecially young cheap affordable pitching, starters at that. They have a surplus, but Yusimerio Petite for Deno doesn't make sense to them.. Why give up a number 3 type starter for a centerfielder?


Plus I'll be the first one to say this and still support Deno. Florida even has to be thinking "If he's any good why isn't he starting for Cincinnati?"

[reds44]

Freel or Deno could fetch a fringe starter for a team.

Thinking back to the Florida/Deno rumor, I understand the lack of a trade there from Floridas end. Why give up pitching for anything? Expecially young cheap affordable pitching, starters at that. They have a surplus, but Yusimerio Petite for Deno doesn't make sense to them.. Why give up a number 3 type starter for a centerfielder?


Plus I'll be the first one to say this and still support Deno. Florida even has to be thinking "If he's any good why isn't he starting for Cincinnati?"
Have you seen the cast of characterist the Marlins have competing for the starting CF spot?

Eric Reed?
Alex Sanchez?

Those are the two finalist. I'm not a big Deno guy, but he's better then those two. Sanchez couldn't hit in the minors for us.

[Dracodave]

Have you seen the cast of characterist the Marlins have competing for the starting CF spot?

Eric Reed?
Alex Sanchez?

Those are the two finalist. I'm not a big Deno guy, but he's better then those two. Sanchez couldn't hit in the minors for us.

They eliminated Hermanson already? I thought he was in on it too lmao.

Their center field situation is a joke, thats why I had to use the worst case logic I could think of in any terms of trading for Deno or Freel.

[fearofpopvol1]

The good news is KGJ is not starting in center! Ryan Freel up the middle DOES make us better. I'm okay with Freel starting there. I'm sure if Hamilton PROVES himself (which he needs to do when games ACTUALLY count), he'll be slotted in for a lot of games there. You can't just hand over the keys to Hamilton just yet. He has not proven himself when games count. I hope he does succeed, but this Hamilton craze needs to taper off a little bit until he actually shows his worth during games that count.

[dougdirt]

I'm discouraged greatly by how this organization has given up on Chris Denorfia.


It actually worries me about what this franchise can actually do as far as evaluating talent....

[HumnHilghtFreel]

It actually worries me about what this franchise can actually do as far as evaluating talent....

Isn't Wayne regarded highly for his eye for talent? I'm not really a Deno fan, but if he sees something in Deno he doesn't like, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[sonny]

Isn't Wayne regarded highly for his eye for talent? I'm not really a Deno fan, but if he sees something in Deno he doesn't like, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yep. WK is a General Manager of The Cincinnati Reds. I work 3rd shift at Kinkos. Wayne knows more than me.:evil:

[Ron Madden]

At least this is a step in the right direction.

I'd rather see Deno get a fair shot to start in CF. but that's just my opinion.

Don't be surprised if Freel or Deno eighther one gets traded before Opening Day.

[Jpup]

What has Chris Denorfia done to prove that he should play in front of Ryan Freel?

[bucksfan2]

What has Chris Denorfia done to prove that he should play in front of Ryan Freel?

What has Ryan Freel done to prove that he is a starting outfielder? He is not going to hit for a high average. His OBP isn't going to blow people away. He is greatest asset is his speed but he has sb high in a season is 37 but his success rate roves around 75%. He doesn't score runs at an alarming rate and his defensive instincts are lacking. Take the name off the back of the jersey and look at him with an open mind. I think many fans are a little biased because they see a little pete rose in him and that he is a fan favorite. But I think it would be a shame not to give a prospect a chance in either deno or hamilton.

[BRM]

What has Chris Denorfia done to prove that he should play in front of Ryan Freel?

Young guys with a track record of success in the minors have to be given a shot at some point. He may turn into an above average centerfielder, he may be a bust. We'll never know unless he's given a legitimate shot.

[TRF]

Isn't Wayne regarded highly for his eye for talent? I'm not really a Deno fan, but if he sees something in Deno he doesn't like, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Joe

Freaking

Mays

[edabbs44]

Isn't Wayne regarded highly for his eye for talent? I'm not really a Deno fan, but if he sees something in Deno he doesn't like, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Seriosuly...he's only acquired 57 relievers since opening day '06. He's like King Midas.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

Ryan Freel can't play a whole season: myth
I agree, Ryan Freel can play a whole season just not every day. My guess is that Freel will start in cf on opening day and if Griffey is a no go Hamilton will start in right. When Griffey comes back Hamilton will take over the cf spot if he is still hitting like he has been, and Freel will go into his more suitable roll as a util stud. Basically IMO the first couple weeks of the season will be a competition between Freel and Hamilton for the everyday cf job. I know alot of people here love Deno, it just seems there is little room for him with what we have right now. When KGJ is gone it may be a different story. Thats why I can't see the logic in trading Freel or Deno, Let Deno get some AAA time this year and play everyday and bring him up mid season. I would think that if Hamilton pays off and becomes the cf then some guys like Stubbs or Bruce would be more valuable trading chips than Deno and Freel would.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

Seriosuly...he's only acquired 57 relievers since opening day '06. He's like King Midas.
Yes he has aquired alot of relievers since 06 but I don't see that as such a bad idea. I mean look at the Red Sox, they would probably love to have some of the guys wayne has picked up with the mess their bullpen is in. I heard Olney and Stark on ESPN radio today talking about how scarse bullpen pitchers are at this point and the Reds are going to have a hard time deciding who to send down. Maybe it's not the strongest bullpen in the league, but IMO it's one of the deepest and if it shakes out right and everybody knows their roll and follows through I think we could be suprised.

[registerthis]

Joe

Freaking

Mays

There is an eye for talent.

And there is throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.

It's clear what column Joe Freaking Mays would fall under. I don't think there's a shred of evidence that Krivsky signed Mays believing that he'd found a true gem. All the evidence points to Krivsky signing Mays hoping that Mays might have something in his tank that would make him a serviceable pitcher for the Reds. It didn't work that way, and the plug was quickly pulled.

So, really, enough with using Joe Mays as some sort of example of how Krivsky can't identify talent.

[registerthis]

What has Ryan Freel done to prove that he is a starting outfielder?

I think it would be a shame not to give a prospect a chance in either deno or hamilton.

Ryan Freel has proven that he can have success against major league pitching. Hamilton and Denorfia haven't.

I'm all for giving Deno a shot, but I am far from convinced that he'd even approach Freel-esque offensive numbers at the major league level. And it's beyond ludicrous to pencil in Hamilton in any starting position when he's seen nothing more than a handful of pitches above A ball.

So, there's your justification for starting Freel on opening day. Now, as others have (correctly) pointed out, starting on opening day by no means locks a player into that position all year. (see Larson, Brandon) Hamilton and Deno will get their shots. But starting Freel there immediately makes the most sense.

[westofyou]

So, really, enough with using Joe Mays as some sort of example of how Krivsky can't identify talent.

Yep, every team has a dog for part of the season, it's inevitable and is a part of every teams stat line at years end. 1.86% of the Reds innings last year were thrown by Joe Mays, a tear in a salted sea.

[Ltlabner]

There is an eye for talent.

And there is throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.

It's clear what column Joe Freaking Mays would fall under. I don't think there's a shred of evidence that Krivsky signed Mays believing that he'd found a true gem. All the evidence points to Krivsky signing Mays hoping that Mays might have something in his tank that would make him a serviceable pitcher for the Reds. It didn't work that way, and the plug was quickly pulled.

So, really, enough with using Joe Mays as some sort of example of how Krivsky can't identify talent.

:clap:

[edabbs44]

There is an eye for talent.

And there is throwing crap against the wall to see what sticks.

It's clear what column Joe Freaking Mays would fall under. I don't think there's a shred of evidence that Krivsky signed Mays believing that he'd found a true gem. All the evidence points to Krivsky signing Mays hoping that Mays might have something in his tank that would make him a serviceable pitcher for the Reds. It didn't work that way, and the plug was quickly pulled.

So, really, enough with using Joe Mays as some sort of example of how Krivsky can't identify talent.

I wouldn't say that WK is incompetent when it comes to identifying talent. But I wouldn't say, to this point, that he has displayed a keen eye for it either since most of his acquisitions have entailed little to no risk. The two trades (BA/Pena and the Washington debacle) where he actually risked something ended up as being polar opposites.

It's tough to judge someone's ability of evaluating talent by the success they have in picking up people for virtually nothing.

I agree that the Phillips and Ross deals last year made the team much better, but there were so many of these acquisitions that he made like these that lessen the credit he should receive. Cody Ross, Yan, Kim, Jason Johnson, Mays, etc etc etc. Just because 2 of 50 low risk moves work out doesn't mean that he knew what he was doing. It means to me that one or two moves would eventually work out.

[Redlegs]

Freel can play outfield, 2nd, and 3rd. How does that make him the least valuable of the three?

[mth123]

Freel can play outfield, 2nd, and 3rd. How does that make him the least valuable of the three?

That particular fact doesn't, except that I don't see much chance that he'll play 2B or 3B in Cincinnati anymore. Add that he's 31 and will be 33 by the time the team is ready to contend. His cheap years are over after 2007. He has far less power than either Deno or Hamilton, and as an OF (because that is where he's going to play now) he is the lesser defender. His mileage is adding up and I don't see him in the plans for the future with Deno, Hamilton, Dunn, and Bruce all on board by then.

For what its worth, I think this team has no chance in 2007. There will be far too many innings going to pitchers who are just as likely to have an ERA above 5.00 as below. I don't want to squander the guys who may be cogs in a team that looks very promising in a couple years in order to go with a guy who may make the difference between 71 Wins and 73 Wins in 2007.

IMO he needs to be sent to a team that can use his talents (including ability to play a supersub 2B and 3B role in addition to the OF) for a championship run in 2007 in exchange for some legitimate above replacement level pitching talent. Meanwhile Deno will be allowed to take the next step in his development with some fairly regular ABs and the less than optimal situation that the team is in with Hamilton won't turn into a completely wasted year if he can mix in a few ABs as well. For 2009 this is obviously the better option. If you have hope for 2007, the team is likely to be better off with Deno and Hamilton, even if they are a slight drop from Freel, if Freel can bring back an actual talented pitcher to pitch some of the innings that are going to go to substandard pitchers given the teams present composition. Don't confuse the current roster glut with actual good pitching. It just means that there a bunch of equally flawed guys who are bunched together. For this team to be a real contender, it needs a few guys who are better than the group fighting it out now.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Joe

Freaking

Mays

Didn't he play a big role in bringing one Francisco Liriano to the Twins? Obviously I don't know his entire track record, but from what I've seen and heard, he has at least an above average eye for talent.