Majik, Bray, and Opening Day

[RedEye]

So, we find ourselves nearly at Opening Day 2007, and here is the state of affairs:

Majik starts the season on rehab in Louisville and Bray begins on the DL. Clayton is playing shortstop for the Blue Jays, Brendan Harris is a utility man for the Devil Rays, and Daryl Thompson is still a minor leaguer with the "potential" to return someday as a true prospect.

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Discuss...

[IamWallaman]

So, we find ourselves nearly at Opening Day 2007, and here is the state of affairs:

Majik starts the season on rehab in Louisville and Bray begins on the DL. Clayton is playing shortstop for the Blue Jays and Daryl Thompson is still a minor leaguer with the "potential" to return someday as a true prospect.

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Discuss...

You forgot Harris (now with TB) :rolleyes:

[Redsland]

You forgot Brendan Harris, Devil Ray.

[Heath]

So, we find ourselves nearly at Opening Day 2007, and here is the state of affairs:

Majik starts the season on rehab in Louisville and Bray begins on the DL. Clayton is playing shortstop for the Blue Jays and Daryl Thompson is still a minor leaguer with the "potential" to return someday as a true prospect.

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Discuss...

:deadhorse:

If Ryan Wagner can't make the Nats, he's on the AAA bus rides.

Nothing to see here, move along.

[Ltlabner]

We're not getting the Robinson trade back as a "do over" either.

[Redsman80]

Quit crying. All people do is whine. The season hasn't even started. Lets look at the positives, we have Bronson, Phillips, Ross, Hatte. You have to take the good with the bad. I really don't think the trade was bad, it might not got us in the playoffs, but you didn't see Dunn coming to spring training with the same attitute.

Quit Whining, Enjoy Opeaning Day.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

So, we find ourselves nearly at Opening Day 2007, and here is the state of affairs:

Majik starts the season on rehab in Louisville and Bray begins on the DL. Clayton is playing shortstop for the Blue Jays and Daryl Thompson is still a minor leaguer with the "potential" to return someday as a true prospect.

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Discuss...
Here's the discussion. If we had kept Kearns and Lopez what would be different right now.
1. I don't think we could have resigned them this year, and if we had what could we not have done by doing so. I would venture to guess that if we had resigned them this year we would not have been able to make the deals with Harrang and Arroyo which I feel are way more valuable than these 2 "quality starters".
2. What would we really have with these two. Would Kearns have stayed healthy and finally lived up to his potential, would Lopez decide to play some d and learn how to make the throw to first base. Who really knows.

3. Would we have Josh Hamilton right now had we kept Kearns.

4. Even though they are banged up, we did get Bray and Maj who will both when healthy help this bullpen. If we had not made the trade IMO Kearns and Lopez would have been let go and we may have got nothing out of them.

I see the love affair for Kearns playing in Dayton and coming up through the system with Dunner and all, but seriously all he did was break our hearts with underachievement, injuries, and total lack of desire to become what many thought he would. He and his father have since come out and talked bad about Reds fans when we had nothing to do with him getting traded in the first place. As far as Lopez is concerned, IMO if you can't play defense you can't play shortstop. Gonzo can play Short with the best of em and lets be glad for that.

[pedro]

So, we find ourselves nearly at Opening Day 2007, and here is the state of affairs:

Majik starts the season on rehab in Louisville and Bray begins on the DL. Clayton is playing shortstop for the Blue Jays and Daryl Thompson is still a minor leaguer with the "potential" to return someday as a true prospect.

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Discuss...


We'll see how "quality" they are by how they do this season. Neither one did all that great after the trade or this spring. Both players have their merits but like any lost love, the reflective glow of our memories may be stronger than they were in reality.

[westofyou]

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Lopez had a stellar spring .200/.254/.267 just magic it was.

[Heath]

We'll see how "quality" they are by how they do this season. Neither one did all that great after the trade or this spring. Both players have their merits but like any lost love, the reflective glow of our memories may be stronger than they were in reality.

The girl you asked to prom is only prettier until the next girl comes along.

[Joseph]

I wish we wouldn't have traded Paul O'Neil for Roberto Kelly.

Just saying.

[Puffy]

Lopez had a stellar spring .200/.254/.267 just magic it was.

I forgot how important spring training stats were.

[NJReds]

"The Trade" was bad. Now it's time to move on.

[BRM]

Just out of curiosity, is Harris expected to make the 25 man in Tampa?

[pedro]

Return of the trade aside I think you have to ask yourself where exactly do those guys fit in the Reds lineup this year if we still have them. Griffey's in RF, where would Austin play? I prefer Phillips to Lopez, where would Lopez play?

If they'd have just moved Dunn to 1B it would have been a lot easier. Griffey could have moved to LF keeping a place for Kearns.

[rotnoid]

I wish we wouldn't have traded Paul O'Neil for Roberto Kelly.

Just saying.

I'm still hung up on Denny Naegle for Drew freaking Henson.

I happened to be in Chattanooga when that trade went down and was at Henson's first Lookouts game. I was more than a little mad since Denny Naegle was one of my favorite Reds at the time. My ties to The Ohio State University didn't help my mood. I sat on the third base line and heckled Henson the entire game. I probably went a little over board, but hey, he played QB for Michigan... About the seventh inning the older couple in front of me (who seemed especially bothered by my ribbing of our new third baseman) finally got up to go to concessions. That's when I notice the man wearing a "Michigan Dad" T-shirt. Boy did I feel stupid.

[Ltlabner]

If they'd have just moved Dunn to 1B it would have been a lot easier. Griffey could have moved to LF keeping a place for Kearns.

Why the heck did they back off of Dunn at 1B anyway?

[BRM]

Return of the trade aside I think you have to ask yourself where exactly do those guys fit in the Reds lineup this year if we still have them. Griffey's in RF, where would Austin play? I prefer Phillips to Lopez, where would Lopez play?

If they'd have just moved Dunn to 1B it would have been a lot easier. Griffey could have moved to LF keeping a place for Kearns.

I agree with you on Kearns. The only way it works for him is moving Dunn to 1B, Junior to LF. I think a lot of folks would like to have seen Lopez at 2B, Phillips at SS.

[Jefferson24]

Our return in "The Trade" has basically turned into nothing at this point. But there is another perspective. We now have Alex Gonzalez and Josh Hamilton. If the trade had not happened we would still have Lopez and Kearns. I offer this up for consideration: are we better off this year with AG at SS and Freel/Hamilton in the outfield than we would have been with Lopez and Kearns?

Moving those guys freed up a few positions that I honestly feel we making improvements in.

So no, we did not get a return but look at it like is was a Lopez and Kearns for Gonzalez and Hamilton. In a year or two we could look back and say that was a great deal because of the indirect acquisitions.

[pedro]

I agree with you on Kearns. The only way it works for him is moving Dunn to 1B, Junior to LF. I think a lot of folks would like to have seen Lopez at 2B, Phillips at SS.

Phillips did pretty well at 2B last year, I'm just not sure that he doesn't profile better as a second baseman than a SS. Either way, I suspect that had more to do with the Reds feelings about Lopez's defensive abilities than anything else. We'll see how he does at 2B this year in Washington.

[Jefferson24]

Why the heck did they back off of Dunn at 1B anyway?

They may not want to settle him into 1st with Votto going to be taking that position over hopefully in 08.

[pedro]

They may not want to settle him into 1st with Votto going to be taking that position over hopefully in 08.

Or they may have just been worried about Dunn's defense there.

[Joseph]

I'm not a Dunn basher, so please don't think of this as an excuse to pile on the man, but didn't he bristle and complain a little?

[pedro]

I'm not a Dunn basher, so please don't think of this as an excuse to pile on the man, but didn't he bristle and complain a little?

He did make it clear that he'd prefer not playing 1B and at the time the Reds were trying to resign him so that may have played into it.

[dougdirt]

He did make it clear that he'd prefer not playing 1B and at the time the Reds were trying to resign him so that may have played into it.

He pretty much told them he wasnt signing a contract if he was going to have to play first base.

As far as the trade goes.... move on.

[westofyou]

I forgot how important spring training stats were.
Showing up is preferred by all MLB teams, especially for starters whose hitting game has lost some of its sheen.

[Redsland]

I'm still hung up on Denny Naegle for Drew freaking Henson.
Henson became Wily Mo. Wily Mo became Bronson Arroyo.

[Redsland]

Why the heck did they back off of Dunn at 1B anyway?
He wasn't thrilled about the move, so Wayne went out and signed Hatteberg.

[rotnoid]

Henson became Wily Mo. Wily Mo became Bronson Arroyo.


When you put it that way it sounds better. Still ruined my vacation.

[michst]

I'm still hung up on Denny Naegle for Drew freaking Henson.



For the reds now its a great trade. Naegle got Henson, Henson got Wily Mo, Wily Mo got Arroyo. Funny how things work out.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

They may not want to settle him into 1st with Votto going to be taking that position over hopefully in 08.
I seem to remember he was more of a train wreck at first than in left at the time.

[5DOLLAR-BLEACHERBUM]

For the reds now its a great trade. Naegle got Henson, Henson got Wily Mo, Wily Mo got Arroyo. Funny how things work out.
And that team up north didn't get Henson.

[RedEye]

Much as The Trade bothers me, I can't believe I forgot Brendan Harris!

Actually, this thread was more like an experiment to see how many hackles I'd raise by bringing up The Trade one last time. I promise, I won't bring it up again until it becomes pertinent to something besides my own whining about Krivsky's one big mistake.

After your posts, I am starting to realize that The Trade may not be that bad after all. What still gets me, though, is K's inability to get market value... or really anything CLOSE to market value for Kearns and Lopez. Sure, you can map the thing onto future moves and outcomes all you want. That still doesn't change the fact that people like Bob Wickman were moved for MUCH cheaper than we paid for Majik and Bray last July.

Whoa! Sorry... I started slipping back into whining mode. I apologize. I'll keep working on it.

Thanks, RedsZone! You're the best therapy I guy like me could ask for these days.

[paulrichjr]

Much as The Trade bothers me, I can't believe I forgot Brendan Harris!

Actually, this thread was more like an experiment to see how many hackles I'd raise by bringing up The Trade one last time. I promise, I won't bring it up again until it becomes pertinent to something besides my own whining about Krivsky's one big mistake.

After your posts, I am starting to realize that The Trade may not be that bad after all. What still gets me, though, is K's inability to get market value... or really anything CLOSE to market value for Kearns and Lopez. Sure, you can map the thing onto future moves and outcomes all you want. That still doesn't change the fact that people like Bob Wickman were moved for MUCH cheaper than we paid for Majik and Bray last July.

Whoa! Sorry... I started slipping back into whining mode. I apologize. I'll keep working on it.

Thanks, RedsZone! You're the best therapy I guy like me could ask for these days.

Totally agree with this. WayneK has been brilliant in many many moves the past 2 years. He just so happened to also make one of the dumbest trades that I have ever seen in the middle of some of his good ones. He obviously has a tremendous talent getting guys for nothing like Burton, Countagul(whatever), Phillips, Hamilton etc. He deserves tremendous credit for these. He just panicked and blew it when the pressure was on. I hope he gets to make a pressure move this year (meaning we are in contention) that doesn't land Homer, Votto, and or Bruce in Tampa Bay or somewhere.

[AtomicDumpling]

Much as The Trade bothers me, I can't believe I forgot Brendan Harris!

Actually, this thread was more like an experiment to see how many hackles I'd raise by bringing up The Trade one last time. I promise, I won't bring it up again until it becomes pertinent to something besides my own whining about Krivsky's one big mistake.

After your posts, I am starting to realize that The Trade may not be that bad after all. What still gets me, though, is K's inability to get market value... or really anything CLOSE to market value for Kearns and Lopez. Sure, you can map the thing onto future moves and outcomes all you want. That still doesn't change the fact that people like Bob Wickman were moved for MUCH cheaper than we paid for Majik and Bray last July.

Whoa! Sorry... I started slipping back into whining mode. I apologize. I'll keep working on it.

Thanks, RedsZone! You're the best therapy I guy like me could ask for these days.

You hit the nail on the head with the "market value" comment. The Reds severely overpaid in the trade. They could have gotten Bray and Majewski for just one of either Kearns or Lopez. Then they could have packaged the other one with Wagner to get more prospects.

If they had not made the trade then our outfield would be Dunn, Kearns and Griffey. Freel would be free to serve as a backup all over the field.

The trade didn't help our defense either. Lopez had a better fielding percentage than Clayton and also had much better range. Just look at their number of batted balls reached per inning in the field.

Majewski was horrible for us and Bray was merely average (4.23 ERA).

I don't see any way for people to justify that trade. It was just plain horrible. It is embarrassing to get ripped off by Jim Bowden.

I agree we have to move on from the trade, but we can't just forgive and forget. We have to hold Krivsky accountable for his mistakes while giving him credit for his successes.

[Ron Madden]

"The Trade" was bad. Now it's time to move on.

:notworthy

[flyer85]

Return of the trade aside I think you have to ask yourself where exactly do those guys fit in the Reds lineup this year if we still have them. Griffey's in RF, where would Austin play? I prefer Phillips to Lopez, where would Lopez play? how about what could they have gotten for them in the off-season?

[buckeyenut]

I think the reds are better off for the deal, as someone mentioned because rather than Lopez and Kearns, we now have Bray, Majik, Gonzalez and Hamilton. I like that all around.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't have gotten more, just that it worked out fine.

[Always Red]

I think the reds are better off for the deal, as someone mentioned because rather than Lopez and Kearns, we now have Bray, Majik, Gonzalez and Hamilton. I like that all around.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't have gotten more, just that it worked out fine.

I think I know what you mean, in that it cleared space for other bodies to be here. That is a slight benefit of the trade, IMO.

I think it's pretty clear at this point, that the further you get away from the deal, it was just a bad trade. If WK wanted to move Lopez and Kearns, that's fine. But it turned out to be really expensive, in that he got little in return for 3 #1 draft picks, and then had to pay more to replace the SS again.

WK has shown a definite penchant for finding the diamond in the rough, at very reasonable prices- Phillips, Ross, Hamilton, Burton, etc. He has also shown the same trend in overpaying for veteran talent near the end of their careers. I think what he does is sign the vets first, to try to ensure at least mediocrity, and then finds the bargains at the bottom of the bin (which he seems to be very good at doing). The only problem is that leaves him in the position of either cutting good young talent (who could help this club for years), or having to jettison salary.

I agree with NJReds-

Originally Posted by NJReds
"The Trade" was bad. Now it's time to move on.

Today should be a very interesting day. If the right moves are made, it could set this team up with some very good relief pitching for the forseeable future. One of these guys needs to be developed into a closer, from the group of Coffey, Burton and Salmon. I'd like to see them move Cormier, and do whatever it takes to keep Milty from pitching again (if they can recoup any salary at all, either through insurance-injury-or trade, that'd be ideal). I'd love to see Livingston starting games for this team by May (either Lohse or Belisle will have melted down by then), and I'd also like to see Santos pitch in middle relief. We'll see!

[Hap]

I'm glad Felipe is gone. Austin may never reach his potential. Jim Bowden is a bad GM.

:deadhorse

[Newman4]

I may be in the minority, but I prefer Lopez over Gonzalez. I really don't see the excitement over Gonzo. I listened to Marty rave about how people say he's the "best defensive shortstop they ever seen" but keep thinking Pokey Reese could play defense too.

[AtomicDumpling]

I may be in the minority, but I prefer Lopez over Gonzalez. I really don't see the excitement over Gonzo. I listened to Marty rave about how people say he's the "best defensive shortstop they ever seen" but keep thinking Pokey Reese could play defense too.

I think we will soon see why Gonzalez was dumped by two teams previously. If he was so good then he wouldn't have been available so cheaply.

Gonzalez had a terrible .300 OBP and hit .179 with runners in scoring position. He is getting old and his defense will decline.

The Reds would have been better off moving Phillips to shortstop and using the $14 million they gave Gonzalez to go after Adam Kennedy to play second. The team would have been just as good defensively and much better offensively.

Why get a no-hit, good glove shortstop when your pitching staff is comprised almost exclusively of fly-ball pitchers? Especially when you already have another poor hitting glove man in Juan Castro. Do you know the reason Minnesota said they dumped Juan Castro last year? Because his defense was sub-par.

You have to score some runs to win games. The Reds might struggle mightily to score this year. They lost way too much offense in Aurilia, Kearns and Lopez. Ross did not hit well after the first two months of last year. Given his late season performance and the previous years of his career there is no reason to suspect that he will have a great year.

[Falls City Beer]

I think we will soon see why Gonzalez was dumped by two teams previously. If he was so good then he wouldn't have been available so cheaply.

Gonzalez had a terrible .300 OBP and hit .179 with runners in scoring position. He is getting old and his defense will decline.

The Reds would have been better off moving Phillips to shortstop and using the $14 million they gave Gonzalez to go after Adam Kennedy to play second. The team would have been just as good defensively and much better offensively.

Why get a no-hit, good glove shortstop when your pitching staff is comprised almost exclusively of fly-ball pitchers? Especially when you already have another poor hitting glove man in Juan Castro. Do you know the reason Minnesota said they dumped Juan Castro last year? Because his defense was sub-par.

You have to score some runs to win games. The Reds might struggle mightily to score this year. They lost way too much offense in Aurilia, Kearns and Lopez. Ross did not hit well after the first two months of last year. Given his late season performance and the previous years of his career there is no reason to suspect that he will have a great year.


What he said.

[edabbs44]

Totally agree with this. WayneK has been brilliant in many many moves the past 2 years. He just so happened to also make one of the dumbest trades that I have ever seen in the middle of some of his good ones. He obviously has a tremendous talent getting guys for nothing like Burton, Countagul(whatever), Phillips, Hamilton etc. He deserves tremendous credit for these. He just panicked and blew it when the pressure was on. I hope he gets to make a pressure move this year (meaning we are in contention) that doesn't land Homer, Votto, and or Bruce in Tampa Bay or somewhere.

Brilliant in "many many moves"? Going out on a limb there, no?

[Deepred05]

If only Larkin hadn't vetoed that trade to the Mets a few years ago. Wasn't Jose Reyes the Player we were to receive?

[757690]

I'm still hung up on Denny Naegle for Drew freaking Henson.

We traded Henson for Wily Mo and Wily Mo for Bronson. Didn't turn out all bad did it?

[paulrichjr]

Brilliant in "many many moves"? Going out on a limb there, no?

No I actually think that many of his moves have been brilliant. Ross, Phillips, Hamilton, Burton, Coutlangus, and Hatteberg were all had for virtually free. (I'm going way out here and state that Burton will be our closer before June is over) They have all performed well and most were not well received on this board at the time of the deal being made. The Arroyo move was also incredible and many were not in agreement on this one. I give credit for awesome moves but still say that the pressure moves that he made such as "The Trade" and the Cormier deal/signing show a GM that makes poor decisions under pressure.

[757690]

"If only Larkin hadn't vetoed that trade to the Mets a few years ago. Wasn't Jose Reyes the Player we were to receive?"

nope it was an outfileder escobar, who was traded to the indians, injured and never made it to the majors as a starter.

[REDREAD]

Here's the discussion. If we had kept Kearns and Lopez what would be different right now.
1. I don't think we could have resigned them this year, and if we had what could we not have done by doing so. I would venture to guess that if we had resigned them this year we would not have been able to make the deals with Harrang and Arroyo which I feel are way more valuable than these 2 "quality starters".


Sure, we had the money to sign them. We could've moved Phillips to SS, Lopez to 2b and not spent the money on Gonzales. We also wouldn't need a 2million dollar Conine if we had Kearns. Subtract off another worthless signing (like Stanton), and there's plently of cash to resign Kearns and Lopez.





2. What would we really have with these two. Would Kearns have stayed healthy and finally lived up to his potential, would Lopez decide to play some d and learn how to make the throw to first base. Who really knows.


At bare minimum, we would've had two great pieces of trade bait this winter.



3. Would we have Josh Hamilton right now had we kept Kearns.


Yes. Why wouldn't we? Wayne brought in a bunch of relievers, yet still Rule V Burton.



4. Even though they are banged up, we did get Bray and Maj who will both when healthy help this bullpen. If we had not made the trade IMO Kearns and Lopez would have been let go and we may have got nothing out of them.


Now this is just silly to assume Kearns and Lopez would've simply been nontendered.

[westofyou]

Sure, we had the money to sign them. We could've moved Phillips to SS, Lopez to 2b and not spent the money on Gonzales.

The quick fix it for everybody who thinks that Phillips would make a ML SS.

Problem is none of them work for the Reds.

[REDREAD]

If only Larkin hadn't vetoed that trade to the Mets a few years ago. Wasn't Jose Reyes the Player we were to receive?


Actually, it was that OF that was later sent to Cleveland (I think in the Almoar trade).. I can't recall his name, but he was a hyped OF that never panned out.

[REDREAD]

The quick fix it for everybody who thinks that Phillips would make a ML SS.

Problem is none of them work for the Reds.

Phillips would've been good enough, considering the team isn't a contender.

Just like Hat is good enough for this year, Hamilton is good enough, Stanton is good enough, etc.

There's plenty of problems with no long term solution.

My problem with Gonzo is we are now locked into him for 3 years. I'd rather try Phillips this year and have the cash available to upgrade something else.

[edabbs44]

No I actually think that many of his moves have been brilliant. Ross, Phillips, Hamilton, Burton, Coutlangus, and Hatteberg were all had for virtually free. (I'm going way out here and state that Burton will be our closer before June is over) They have all performed well and most were not well received on this board at the time of the deal being made. The Arroyo move was also incredible and many were not in agreement on this one. I give credit for awesome moves but still say that the pressure moves that he made such as "The Trade" and the Cormier deal/signing show a GM that makes poor decisions under pressure.

Saying that the Hamilton, Burton and Coutlangus moves have been brilliant is a little early.

Hatteberg disappeared in the 2nd half, big time.

Ross had a good season, but I'm gonna hold off on any brilliant comments until this season.

Phillips was a great move. But was it brilliant or lucky?

Arroyo was a great move as well.

For every Phillips and Ross, there is a Yan and Mays. Let's wait to see how the new guys perform.

[westofyou]

Phillips would've been good enough, considering the team isn't a contender.

Really?

I'd like to see the Reds put players in a better position to succeed, that helps teams become contenders.

4 years ago BP wrote this about Phillips


The Indians sent Phillips to the Arizona Fall League to keep working on becoming a second baseman because Omar’s under contract for another two years. There’s no reason to believe Phillips can’t make the switch. It may even be for the best, since he’s never been an outstanding defensive shortstop, although he has the arm for the position.

Looks like they saw what the Reds saw in his game as SS, that it wasn't as good as his game at 2nd base.

[REDREAD]

Really?

.

We have different priorities I guess. I want the team to eventually get better. I'm not satisfied with the annual struggle to crack .500

In 2009, let me know if you're glad that Gonzo is still around.

[westofyou]

In 2009, let me know if you're glad that Gonzo is still around.

I'm glad now, because having better defense does make a baseball team better and as for 2009? I don't care, I have two whole season of baseball to temper the fear of what the Reds payroll will be like in 2009. Mostly because I root for a baseball team, not the payroll.

[bucksfan2]

For every Phillips and Ross, there is a Yan and Mays. Let's wait to see how the new guys perform.

Those moves were different. Both Phillips and Ross were brought in because a scout saw something. They were not positions of need at the time for the reds. Both Yan and Mays were prayers beause the reds needed help in both the rotatoin and pen.

[edabbs44]

Those moves were different. Both Phillips and Ross were brought in because a scout saw something. They were not positions of need at the time for the reds. Both Yan and Mays were prayers beause the reds needed help in both the rotatoin and pen.

I love how the moves that worked out were on purpose and the moves that didn't were just a shot in the dark.

Did a scout see somehting in Cody Ross?

[TRF]

"If only Larkin hadn't vetoed that trade to the Mets a few years ago. Wasn't Jose Reyes the Player we were to receive?"

nope it was an outfileder escobar, who was traded to the indians, injured and never made it to the majors as a starter.

How's this for typical. Bowden picked him up, and this was his line for the Nats:

.356 BA .394 OBP .575 SLG .969 OPS


yeah 33 games and 87 AB's. He's listed as their 4th OF

[westofyou]

yeah 33 games and 87 AB's. He's listed as their 4th OF


Manager Manny Acta said Alex Escobar (shoulder) is unlikely to be ready by Opening Day. Escobar has not responded to a throwing program designed to strengthen the shoulder. On Saturday, he went 3-for-4 with two homers in a minor league game, but wasn't able to play the field. "He's not making as much progress as we thought (he would)," Acta said.

Alex is having a career fraught with injuries.

[paulrichjr]

Saying that the Hamilton, Burton and Coutlangus moves have been brilliant is a little early.

Hatteberg disappeared in the 2nd half, big time.

Ross had a good season, but I'm gonna hold off on any brilliant comments until this season.

Phillips was a great move. But was it brilliant or lucky?

Arroyo was a great move as well.

For every Phillips and Ross, there is a Yan and Mays. Let's wait to see how the new guys perform.

The whole team blew up at the end. I personally think it was because of so much offense being traded away that it just caused a ripple affect with everyone else thus I still feel the Hatte deal was good.

I agree with you on the two pitchers but I like the initial reviews a lot.

The Hamilton deal was amazing and even if he flopped today I would call it brilliant. He made a low risk high potential reward move that could turn into something as big as trading for a Little Joe in the 70s. Yea it could flop but man I like his thinking here.

[edabbs44]

The whole team blew up at the end. I personally think it was because of so much offense being traded away that it just caused a ripple affect with everyone else thus I still feel the Hatte deal was good.

I agree with you on the two pitchers but I like the initial reviews a lot.

The Hamilton deal was amazing and even if he flopped today I would call it brilliant. He made a low risk high potential reward move that could turn into something as big as trading for a Little Joe in the 70s. Yea it could flop but man I like his thinking here.

I think we're agreeing more than we think.

He has made 2 moves that had any downside: The Arroyo deal and the Washington disaster. Every single other move he has made has been low-risk. He hasn't risked much. Phillips? Nada. Mays? Nothing. Yan? Nothing. Cormier? Minimal. Lohse? TBD.

Arroyo? Hooray! Kearns/Lopez? Boo.

So any move that works out is going to look great, and any move that doesn't is going to be "Well, it was a shot in the dark anyway." How many moves has he made so far? 50? He's bound to hit it big on a few. Now let's make some bigger acquisitions to supplement the other no risk guys and we can talk playoffs.

[MaineRed]

Phillips was a great move. But was it brilliant or lucky?

For every Phillips and Ross, there is a Yan and Mays.

It Phillips was luck, Yan and Mays were the result of bad luck.

You want to continue to judge WK based on guys like Joe Mays, fine but you have to use the same rules for judging Phillips. If Phillips failed, he'd be on your list with Yan and Mays, not on the unlucky list. So when he succeeds you can't claim luck.

However, that said it is unfair to judge every move as if they are made with the same excitement by the front office. Some moves are probably greeted by office wide high fives, handshakes, hugs, whatever, while others are met with friendly nods or just an email. I would say making the trade for Arroyo was greeted with some excitment while a trade for Yan was probably made without any real expressions by the front office staff.

I just think it is unfair to try to discredit a major league GM who has signed some guys to no risk contracts who have failed. It happens. To every GM. Yan and Mays on the negative side are not akin to Phillips on the positive side. That just isn't fair. Phillips brings a lot more to the table, now and in the future than what Yan and Mays cost us. Perhaps there were better alternatives to Yan and Mays but that is debateable.

We could have signed Jeff Weaver but nobody here was interested.

[MaineRed]

the Washington disaster

Call me crazy, and I know plenty will but I find that trade to be about the farthest thing from a disaster I could possibly envision.

A disaster is throwing Homer Bailey into a trade like that and having the guys we get stink while Homer goes and wins 4 Cy Youngs. Trading some OK players for some other OK players who happen to be pitchers is not something I would define as a disaster.

The jury is still out on that trade and in time it might be Washington who considers it a disaster. Its 50/50 right now.

[MaineRed]

BTW, where is the game thread?

[REDREAD]

I'm glad now, because having better defense does make a baseball team better and as for 2009? I don't care, I have two whole season of baseball to temper the fear of what the Reds payroll will be like in 2009. Mostly because I root for a baseball team, not the payroll.

Ok.. you don't care about 2009. Now it makes sense why you like these moves.

Gonzo will become a mini-Milton.. an unmovable veteran contract which gives below average performance that the Reds commited 3 years too. He's less expensive and will probably won't be completely useless, but a waste of resources nonetheless.

You don't like Phillips at SS? Fine.. get a 1 year stopgap or find someone better than Gonzo. I thought you of all people would understand that it's unwise to get desparate and overpay and overcommit to an aging guy whose only asset is his glove.

[BRM]

BTW, where is the game thread?

The Game Thread forum.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1281191#post1281191

[westofyou]

You don't like Phillips at SS? Fine.. get a 1 year stopgap or find someone better than Gonzo. Premier position, usually filled by the draft or FA signing, it's not a "stop gap" position in the traditional sense, it a position that is the most important position on the field, one that demands high return in dollars or bodies if you go outside an organization to get it.

I know one thing, I have seen what a good SS can do for a team and I've seen what a bad one can do, I'll take the good and worry later. BTW by the time Gonzo gets sooooo expensive that he's a hairshirt of a player the rest of the IF will still be dirt cheap.

[edabbs44]

Call me crazy, and I know plenty will but I find that trade to be about the farthest thing from a disaster I could possibly envision.

A disaster is throwing Homer Bailey into a trade like that and having the guys we get stink while Homer goes and wins 4 Cy Youngs. Trading some OK players for some other OK players who happen to be pitchers is not something I would define as a disaster.

The jury is still out on that trade and in time it might be Washington who considers it a disaster. Its 50/50 right now.

I can't wait for the jury to finally reconvene on this trade, b/c any WK guy or gal on this board refuses to acknowledge this trade. Either the jury is still out or it's been beaten to death. Pro-WK people on the board refuse to acknowledge its existance like some bad, bad memory.

[REDREAD]

Premier position, usually filled by the draft or FA signing, it's not a "stop gap" position in the traditional sense, it a position that is the most important position on the field, one that demands high return in dollars or bodies if you go outside an organization to get it.

I know one thing, I have seen what a good SS can do for a team and I've seen what a bad one can do, I'll take the good and worry later. BTW by the time Gonzo gets sooooo expensive that he's a hairshirt of a player the rest of the IF will still be dirt cheap.


You used a lot of the same arguments to support the acquision of Clayton.

Sure, defense is important at SS.

But you can also stop gap any position. Lohse, Milton, and Santos (?) are all temporary stop gaps in the rotation that likely won't be here next year. If you can stopgap 3 of your starting pitchers and have no idea who your closer is, it seems logical that you can get a one year stopgap at SS as well.

The 3 year commitment to Gonzo bothers me more than the money he's being paid, although he is being overpaid. That will effectively cement him as the starting SS for the next 3 years. I would've prefered to just give Gonzo one year at 6 million than the contract he got (even though that would still be overpaying).

Ideally, the farm system can produce some glove infielders than can hit as well as Gonzo. Let's hope Wayne can turn that around. The overemphasis on drafting heavily in pitching the last 8 years or so has hurt the Reds' position depth.

In summary, I want the Reds to build for the future. Wayne's offseason was largely about just trying to patch things up to make the team decent this year, without regard for potentially saddling the team with bad players in 2008 and 2009.

Wayne is basically running this team a lot like Bowden did after 2000. Dumpster diving and overpaying mediocre veterans. Wayne just has more money available to spend on his "plan".

[MartyFan]

So, we find ourselves nearly at Opening Day 2007, and here is the state of affairs:

Majik starts the season on rehab in Louisville and Bray begins on the DL. Clayton is playing shortstop for the Blue Jays and Daryl Thompson is still a minor leaguer with the "potential" to return someday as a true prospect.

Meanwhile, Austin Kearns and Felipe Lopez are both quality starters in Washington. Oh, and Ryan Wagner starts the season in the Nationals bullpen.

Discuss...

You should probably be negged just for bringing up a topic that is so totally over-discussed on this board while adding absolutely NOTHING NEW.

[westofyou]

You used a lot of the same arguments to support the acquision of Clayton.

No, actually I used the same argument to end the mistake called Lopez at SS.

Wayne is basically running this team a lot like Bowden did after 2000. Dumpster diving and overpaying mediocre veterans. Wayne just has more money available to spend on his "plan".

One mans opinion I guess, Bowden wouldn't know a pitcher if it hit him in the face. Anyway, I'm through batting this around the games this season is where the proof will lie, not in trying to Jeanne Dixon 2009.

[AtomicDumpling]

Since we gave the Nationals three 1st round draft picks last year (all of whom are currently playing important roles for the Nationals) in exchange for a motley group of scrubs (none of which are playing for the Reds), maybe we should just go ahead and give Bowden this year's 1st round pick as well. It would save the front office the hassle of having to scout and decide who to draft so they could better spend their time finding bargain-basement players to snag from other teams.

Also, since Encarnacion makes so many errors at 3B maybe we should trade him to Toronto for Royce Clayton to improve the defense? Maybe if we throw in Adam Dunn and Todd Coffey they will send us a mop-up reliever too. Sound good?

[REDREAD]

No, actually I used the same argument to end the mistake called Lopez at SS..

Yep, the same argument.. Anything other than Lopez must be good. Didn't work out well for Clayton, did it?



One mans opinion I guess, Bowden wouldn't know a pitcher if it hit him in the face. Anyway, I'm through batting this around the games this season is where the proof will lie, not in trying to Jeanne Dixon 2009.

The comparison relates to Wayne's strategy of building a pitching staff by open auditions and retreads, just as Bowden did. That's exactly how Wayne is building his staff. Wayne got Arroyo. Bowden got Neagle and others..
But the vast majority of their pitching staffs are "second chance" type guys.
Hopefully, in time, Wayne will get some pitching coming through the farm or acquire some guys under 36.

Wayne is out spending about 14 million over 3 years for a SS with a LIFETIME OBP of 292. Great job at locking us into a crappy SS for 3 years. Gonzo has to be a gold glove guy to even remotely justify this signing, not just "make the routine plays".

[FlightRick]

Lemme try a new, shame-related tack to see if we can't solve this months-old problem of rehashing a pointless topic... afterall, I *am* the guy what rid us of "BubbaFanOMGNumber1Crosby," so perhaps my psychologically devious tactics will work again here:

I wish I were the intellectually curious, highly motivated type. If I were, I'd scour the Nationals' boards to see if they're still blathering on like tards over how they totally fleeced the Reds last July. My guess? They're not. Because they have a guaranteed 90-loss season staring them in the face this year, and have other, more pressing issues to obsess over. But again, I can't prove this.

So why are some of you still hung up on something that even the stunted Nationals' fans out there have gotten past? You're better than that, RedsZone.... you're better than that.

[edabbs44]

Lemme try a new, shame-related tack to see if we can't solve this months-old problem of rehashing a pointless topic... afterall, I *am* the guy what rid us of "BubbaFanOMGNumber1Crosby," so perhaps my psychologically devious tactics will work again here:

I wish I were the intellectually curious, highly motivated type. If I were, I'd scour the Nationals' boards to see if they're still blathering on like tards over how they totally fleeced the Reds last July. My guess? They're not. Because they have a guaranteed 90-loss season staring them in the face this year, and have other, more pressing issues to obsess over. But again, I can't prove this.

So why are some of you still hung up on something that even the stunted Nationals' fans out there have gotten past? You're better than that, RedsZone.... you're better than that.

As soon as the WK faction of the board stops "bragging" about Arroyo, Phillips and Ross, then the anti-WK faction will stop bringing up the Washington debacle.

[FlightRick]

Heaven forfend if I come off like I'm taking sides, but.....

Arroyo and Phillips and Co. still, at least, have something to do with where Our Reds are and where we're going. The Nationals have Kearns and Lopez, but they also have a boatload of the kind of troubles that I wouldn't give to a monkey on a rock....

Big fricking deal, says I: I'm still way more comfortable going forward with our 25-man roster than if I was a Nationals fan who had "fleeced" the Reds last season and still has nothing tangible to show for it in the "W" column. I'm not naive enough to think that explanation is the "end of the story." But I'm also content that anything even remotely relevent (from a Reds perspective, especially) on this issue was said months ago, and you're not accomplishing anything by bringing it up again at this point.

Then again, I'm also that Special Kind of Jerkface who wants to go on a face-punching spree pretty much any time I am subjected to more than 15 consecutive seconds of "sports-talk radio," so maybe I just have a low tolerance for such unmitigated, ultra-repetitive nonsense?

[AtomicDumpling]

Most of the columns by the baseball "experts" and sabermetricians said the Kearns/Lopez trade was the most lopsided deal in all of major league baseball in the last 10+ years with the possible exception of the Mets trading Scott Kazmir to the Devil Rays for Victor Zambrano. These columns were written before we even knew that Krivsky never asked the Nationals if any of the players in the trade were injured or had received medical treatment.

[Ltlabner]

Wayne is out spending about 14 million over 3 years for a SS with a LIFETIME OBP of 292. Great job at locking us into a crappy SS for 3 years. Gonzo has to be a gold glove guy to even remotely justify this signing, not just "make the routine plays".

Because we all know that the sole measure of a ballplayers worth can be boiled down into one handy "tell all" stat.

[RedEye]

Call me crazy, and I know plenty will but I find that trade to be about the farthest thing from a disaster I could possibly envision.

A disaster is throwing Homer Bailey into a trade like that and having the guys we get stink while Homer goes and wins 4 Cy Youngs. Trading some OK players for some other OK players who happen to be pitchers is not something I would define as a disaster.

The jury is still out on that trade and in time it might be Washington who considers it a disaster. Its 50/50 right now.

You ARE crazy, my friend.

I know I promised not to post on this anymore... but this is absolutely ridiculous logic. I am baffled as to how anyone in their right mind could think something like this.

As far from a disaster as you can possibly envision???

How can you even begin to claim the trade worked out 50/50 when we have ZERO players on our roster from the deal one year later? ZERO!!!

Clayton and Harris are GONE - apparently we never planned to keep them anyway. Thompson is in the low minors. Majik and Bray are shelved with injuries, and weren't terribly effective even when they were healthy. IMO, the only upside on our side of the deal lies in Bray - and he has done very little to make me hopeful so far.

What does Washington have? Count 'em: THREE PLAYERS.

They have a solid ML OF (Kearns), a nice hitting SS (Lopez) AND a reliever with upside (Wagner) who IMO almost cancels out the one good young reliever we got in return.

Similarly confusing is your claim that only losing Bailey would be a disaster. As far as I know, most GMs would agree with me that Krivsky screwed up. He hamstrung the Reds' offense while giving up three players with value for purported bullpen help that never panned out for the playoff run that was supposed to be the reasong for overpaying.

That's is a trade disaster if I've ever seen one. Losing Bailey too? That would be the APOCALYPSE.

[AtomicDumpling]

I am not necessarily saying that we wanted to keep Kearns and/or Lopez, I am just saying that if we were going to trade them we should have gotten much more value in return. Trading is fine, nobody is untouchable. But you can't just give away good players. You have to get something useful in exchange.

My point is that we could have received much better players in return. If Krivsky had shopped around we could have gotten at least two VERY solid prospects, or a very good starting pitcher. There were several relievers better than Bray and Majewski traded last year in exchange for lower quality players than Kearns, Lopez and Wagner.

That is why people ridiculed the trade, not because they were in love with Kearns or Lopez.

[Ron Madden]

I am not necessarily saying that we wanted to keep Kearns and/or Lopez, I am just saying that if we were going to trade them we should have gotten much more value in return. Trading is fine, nobody is untouchable. But you can't just give away good players. You have to get something useful in exchange.

My point is that we could have received much better players in return. If Krivsky had shopped around we could have gotten at least two VERY solid prospects, or a very good starting pitcher. There were several relievers better than Bray and Majewski traded last year in exchange for lower quality players than Kearns, Lopez and Wagner.

That is why people ridiculed the trade, not because they were in love with Kearns or Lopez.

Very well said. :beerme:

[westofyou]

Thoughts on Opening Day in Washington.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/02/AR2007040201761.html


The brightest memory of the day was a 10-foot Teddy Roosevelt mascot soaring down a cable from the top of the right field roof to win the Nats' daily Presidents' Race. Teddy -- shut out in 2006 -- watched the top of the fourth from the top of RFK as Patterson got bombed, Logan got hurt then limped slowly off the field and one Nats disaster followed another.

"Hopefully, Teddy wasn't watching the game too close up there. He might've been worried," catcher Brian Schneider said. Or, if he were a Nats fan, he might have been tempted to jump.

[REDREAD]

Because we all know that the sole measure of a ballplayers worth can be boiled down into one handy "tell all" stat.

Nope.. We've been through this before. If the Reds only wanted a glove SS and were willing to accept no offense from SS, there were better options than commiting to 3 years of Gonzo.

OBP isn't the whole story, but it's a big part of it. You even brought up various projections to defend Gonzo, so don't act as if it's meaningless to you.

The fact is that it's a big black mark on him that's not defensible.

It will be interesting after this season is over to see where Gonzo is in win shares and other statistical measures vs other SS. Those supposedly take defense into account, if I understand correctly.

[MaineRed]

How can you even begin to claim the trade worked out 50/50 when we have ZERO players on our roster from the deal one year later? ZERO!!!

Clayton and Harris are GONE - apparently we never planned to keep them anyway. Thompson is in the low minors. Majik and Bray are shelved with injuries, and weren't terribly effective even when they were healthy. IMO, the only upside on our side of the deal lies in Bray - and he has done very little to make me hopeful so far.

What does Washington have? Count 'em: THREE PLAYERS.

I'm saying its 50/50 for the future. Kearns has been around awhile and we are still waiting for him to break out. Lopez is OK but he's not a top SS and Wagner being a prospect doesn't mean anything. We have a lot of guys we liked a lot more than Wagner at the time of that trade. Its possible and I would hardly call it unlikely that Bray and Maj could turn out to be better than the 3 guys who were traded. Sure they are injured right now but are you you telling me that if AK, FL and RW were hurt in DC while Bray and Maj were healthy that you'd have a different opinion on this trade?

The trade hardly cripled the franchise. You say he hamstrung the offense and maybe that was true, last year, but those issues aren't still here. The team is much better up the middle than they were going into last spring training and at least as good offensively. We have one really weak offensive player and that is a stud defensive SS who replaced a shady defensive SS.

Sorry, I just don't see the issue. There are many scouts (just not the ones who post here) who love Bray and Maj and very few scouts (including the ones who post here) who think all that highly of Kearns or Lopez.

We traded a weak defensive SS and a decent OFer who brings nothing special to the table for pitching help. I can't help the fact that the two of them haven't helped us as of yet and I guess that makes your side of the story easier to argue. And I can't fault you for questioning Bray and Maj, hard not to. But these guys have time to come through for us and all I'm saying is that we could be dancing in the streets some day that one or both of these guys are in our pen.

I guess some will go to their grave believing Kearns or Lopez could have fetched more. Maybe so. But it takes two to tango. To get someone better than Bill Bray out of Lopez we'd have to find a team that wanted him. Same with Kearns. You want something better than Gary Majewski, you have to find someone willing to give it to you. WK could have stood pat but then he would have been accused of wasting a shot by not getting the team the bullpen help he needed. As far as last year goes, that trade WAS a failure. But that doesn't mean that the result of our season would have been different if the trade wasn't made or that Lopez and/or Kearns could have fetched us all that much more during the winter. Maybe we wouldn't have been able to unload Lopez before Gonzo was signed. Then what? Maybe we still have Kearns at the time and WK forgets about Hamilton.

The loud majority on this issue has taken over and that is fine. I just think it should be known that there are folks out there who don't view this trade as the monumental failure that most of you do and we (I know I'm not the only one)see plenty of hope for this paying off in the future.

[DTCromer]

I'm just amazed at how good a lot of Reds fans thought Kearns and Lopez were. It seems as they expected to get Soriano in the trade. Kearns is a poor man's Adam Dunn. Lopez is about as overrated as they come especially since his fielding totally regressed after having a great year in 2005 in the field. Kearns is about a nickel a dozen. . .I'd say dime, but he's not even worth that.


The loud majority on this issue has taken over and that is fine. I just think it should be known that there are folks out there who don't view this trade as the monumental failure that most of you do and we (I know I'm not the only one)see plenty of hope for this paying off in the future.

Sadly, our society is mostly, "What have you done for me lately?" People will say, "Washington has 2 starters in their lineup while we have nothing in return!" Well, we'll see once Bray and Majik get healthy. We aren't going to miss Kearns or Lopez. They were the epitomy of our "fundamentals of the game" problem. Kearns with his undisciplined AB's and Lopez with his even more regressing fielding.

[BRM]

Kearns a nickel a dozen? I've heard everything now. The guy is above average offensively and defensively. He finished in the top 10 for all rightfielders last year in OPS. I certainly don't think he's a superstar or even an all-star but the guy is definitely an above average rightfielder. All that said, I had no problem with Wayne trading him last year.

[DTCromer]

Kearns a nickel a dozen? I've heard everything now. The guy is above average offensively and defensively. He finished in the top 10 for all rightfielders last year in OPS. I certainly don't think he's a superstar or even an all-star but the guy is definitely an above average rightfielder. All that said, I had no problem with Wayne trading him last year.

OF's like Kearn are a nickel a dozen. Finding talents like Bray and Majik are harder to come by. That's why I view the trade as pretty good. Of course, I didn't predict these injuries like most of you guys on this board, so I guess this was an awful trade because Majik is rehabbing and Bray is on the DL right now while Austin and Felipe are playing for one of the worst teams in the league.

[BRM]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but I don't think middle relievers are all that hard to come by.

[DTCromer]

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but I don't think middle relievers are all that hard to come by.


Good middle relievers are, at least I think Bray and Majewski can be very good, especially Bray. I was just never impressed with Austin except for his OF defense which we won't miss with Griffey in right.

[edabbs44]

Good middle relievers are, at least I think Bray and Majewski can be very good, especially Bray. I was just never impressed with Austin except for his OF defense which we won't miss with Griffey in right.

Maj may never pitch again...that is the blunt reality of it all. And it was known when he was acquired.

[REDREAD]

Kearns is about a nickel a dozen. . .I'd say dime, but he's not even worth that.


If that's the case, why couldn't the Reds pick up a comparable bat like that in the offseason? Why did we settle for Conine? Surely, you must admit that Kearns is better than Conine.

Johnny Footstool has posted numerous times that Kearns was above average in all offense catagories relative to his peers at the the time of the trade. Most people would agree (before the trade at least) that Kearns was at least slightly above average defensively as well, or at worse average defensively in RF.

Bottom line, players like Kearns are not a nickle a dozen.

[REDREAD]

OF's like Kearn are a nickel a dozen. Finding talents like Bray and Majik are harder to come by. .

Ok, then list a dozen comparable OF to Kearns at his salary, if they are a nickle a dozen, and then make a guess if the clubs that own them would trade them for Maj . :laugh:

[AtomicDumpling]

There are only 30 starting RF in the major leagues. Kearns is clearly ranked somewhere in the 10-20 range of those. So Kearns is one of the 20 best RF in the world.

Lopez was one of only 30 starting shortstops in the major leagues. Offensively he was one of the top 10. Defensively he made a lot of throwing errors, but had very good fielding range.

There are over 200 relief pitchers in the major leagues. Neither Bray nor Majewski is anywhere near the top half of them. So the Reds gave up two very valuable players at difficult positions in exchange for two mediocre players at the most common and easiest to find position. (and one of them was injured at the time of the trade and is still not healed after 8 months)

Starting RF and SS are rare. Relief pitchers are common, especially injured ones.

The reason that Bray and Majewski are relief pitchers is because they are not very good pitchers. Teams put their best pitchers in the rotation because starters pitch two or three times more innings in a season that relievers do. You want to get the most value from your quality pitchers right? So it makes more sense to have Aaron Harang pitch 200 innings and have Mike Stanton throw 60 innings instead of the reverse.

So the fact that Bray and Majewski have always been relievers indicates they have never been considered very good pitching prospects.

Any smart GM would rather have 1400+ innings each of solid play from an above average right fielder and shortstop than 60 innings each from two mediocre relief pitchers. That is why the Reds got screwed so badly on this trade. They could have gotten much more value in return for their two young, improving position players. Bray and Majewski might be nice to have some day, but they could have been obtained much more cheaply.

Kearns and Lopez will see their stats suffer by moving to the huge, pitcher-friendly stadium in Washington. Conversely, Bray and Majewski will see their stats suffer due to the move from the pitcher-friendly stadium to the hitter-friendly GABP.

Trading Kearns and Lopez was not the mistake that Krivsky made. His mistake was trading them for the likes of Bray and Majewski. That is like paying $100,000 for a Chevrolet Cavalier -- you could have had a Porsche!

[pedro]

Lopez was one of only 30 starting shortstops in the major leagues. Offensively he was one of the top 10. Defensively he made a lot of throwing errors, but had very good fielding range.



That's just not true. Lopez is arguably the absolute worst defensive SS in the majors. That's just on an athletic level. If you take "headiness" or "baseball acumen" into account he's even worse.

[dsmith421]

Finding talents like Bray and Majik are harder to come by.

Wait, by "talents like Bray and Majik" you're referring to Bill Bray and Gary Majewski, right? As in one high-upside lefty with no Major League success and control problems and one completely mediocre injured middle reliever? I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

[AtomicDumpling]

According to John Dewan's The Fielding Bible Felipe Lopez' is "average at best", which is not great but is a far cry better than your ridiculous assertion that he is the absolute worst defensive SS in the majors. Lopez' range is considered above average to the left, above average on balls in front that have to be charged and below average to his right.

Don't be a hater.

[pedro]

According to John Dewan's The Fielding Bible Felipe Lopez' is "average at best", which is not great but is a far cry better than your ridiculous assertion that he is the absolute worst defensive SS in the majors. Lopez' range is considered above average to the left, above average on balls in front that have to be charged and below average to his right.

Don't be a hater.

I have no idea who John Dewan is but by all the defensive metrics on espn.com (imperfect as they are) Lopez rates in the bottom 5 or so in the league.

I also watched 80% of the games he played in last year and my opinion is that he sucks at SS.

Name a worse defensive SS.

[AtomicDumpling]

Michael Young and Derek Jeter are worse defensive shortstops than Felipe Lopez and they are both All Stars like Lopez. How many All Star teams have Bray and Majewski made?

[AtomicDumpling]

John Dewan by the way is considered by many to be the foremost authority on defensive evaluation. He runs a company that reviews videotape of every single play of the entire season to graph, chart, measure and evaluate the defensive performance of every player in the league. He is a disciple of Bill James and has published extensively his results. He wrote a top-selling book called The Fielding Bible.

[pedro]

Michael Young and Derek Jeter are worse defensive shortstops than Felipe Lopez and they are both All Stars like Lopez. How many All Star teams have Bray and Majewski made?

You're smart enough to know that all star appearances don't mean that much.

As for Young and Jeter being worse than Lopez all I can say is there isn't statistical evidence (that I know about) to back that up.

Furthermore, I've watched enough Yankee games to know from empirical evidence that Jeter, while not the greatest SS in the world, blows Lopez out of the water.

You're just way off base here IMO.

[AtomicDumpling]

Jeter is at the bottom of almost every defensive stat there is. His range is horrible.

I guess you just aren't a good evaluator of defensive ability.

By the way, I never said Lopez was a good defensive player. I merely said his range is good. I said he makes a lot of throwing errors. Most of his problem defensively is due to poor throwing, not lack of athletic ability.

Just because you personally don't like Lopez is not justification for giving him away for free when we could have gotten value in return.

[pedro]

Jeter is at the bottom of almost every defensive stat there is. His range is horrible.

I guess you just aren't a good evaluator of defensive ability.

By the way, I never said Lopez was a good defensive player. I merely said his range is good. I said he makes a lot of throwing errors. Most of his problem defensively is due to poor throwing, not lack of athletic ability.

Just because you personally don't like Lopez is not justification for giving him away for free when we could have gotten value in return.

Yeah that's it. I guess I'm just not as smart as you. Thanks for clearing that up.

(and yet Jeter's ZR and RF are better than Lopez's and he doens't make all those errors)

[Red Leader]

Jeter is at the bottom of almost every defensive stat there is. His range is horrible.

I guess you just aren't a good evaluator of defensive ability.

By the way, I never said Lopez was a good defensive player. I merely said his range is good. I said he makes a lot of throwing errors. Most of his problem defensively is due to poor throwing, not lack of athletic ability.

Just because you personally don't like Lopez is not justification for giving him away for free when we could have gotten value in return.

A little early in your RZ career to be throwing jabs like you did above, don't ya think?

Also, no matter what the Jerry Falwell of defensive performance says, I have a hard time believing that Felipe Lopez's range is that much better than Derek Jeter's. Felipe Lopez struggles with his throws, which you pointed out above. Felipe Lopez also struggles with balls hit to his right and left, although probably moreso to the right than left. Lopez does play the ball in front of him he has to charge well. Derek Jeter is very good at getting to balls to his right. He's also good at getting to balls he has to charge and balls to his left. Those defensive metrics you've been looking at may not bear that out, but I've seen both of them play a crapload of games and I would say that while Derek Jeter is no Ozzie Smith, he is a better defensive SS than Felipe Lopez. Also, if you're just talking about range here, I'd still argue that Derek Jeter has better range than Felipe, but range alone does not make Felipe or Jeter the better defensive player...

[fisch11]

I believe this team is better now than it was when Kearns and Lopez were here. Enough said.

[BRM]

I believe this team is better now than it was when Kearns and Lopez were here. Enough said.

Did that trade make the team better now or is it due to other players Krivsky signed? If it's the trade, it's quite a feat since none of the players that came over are on the active roster.

[DTCromer]

Michael Young and Derek Jeter are worse defensive shortstops than Felipe Lopez and they are both All Stars like Lopez. How many All Star teams have Bray and Majewski made?

So if I read between the lines correctly, Lopez is in the same league as both of those guys since he as more range? I think this may be the worst argument I've ever heard. So what if he has good range? What good does his range do if GABP needs to extend the net from behind home plate all the way down the the right field line?


Did that trade make the team better now or is it due to other players Krivsky signed? If it's the trade, it's quite a feat since none of the players that came over are on the active roster.

I know I'm not going to make any friends on this board by saying I didn't mind this trade, but just getting rid of Kearns and Lopez was good enough for me. Something had to be done. Unfortunately, everyone wanted All-Star caliber players in return.

[BRM]

I know I'm not going to make any friends on this board by saying I didn't mind this trade, but just getting rid of Kearns and Lopez was good enough for me. Something had to be done. Unfortunately, everyone wanted All-Star caliber players in return.

I had no problem with getting rid of Kearns and Lopez. I did have a problem with the return at the time but it's water under the bridge now. Time to move on.

[Red Leader]

I had no problem with getting rid of Kearns and Lopez. I did have a problem with the return at the time but it's water under the bridge now. Time to move on.

Amen, brutha! :beerme:

[DTCromer]

I had no problem with getting rid of Kearns and Lopez. I did have a problem with the return at the time but it's water under the bridge now. Time to move on.


Thank you! The first reasonable post I've heard on this subject.

[BRM]

Thank you! The first reasonable post I've heard on this subject.

I don't know about that. There has to be a couple of reasonable people around here. :)

[AtomicDumpling]

I never said Lopez was in the same league as Young or Jeter. Don't make things up.

I said Lopez was a better fielder than those two. I was just telling you what the sabermetric experts said actually. It is easily available at Baseball Prospectus and the Hardball Times websites if you want to see for yourself.

Obviously, Jeter and Young are much better offensive players than Lopez.

Giving away valuable players never makes your team better. A guy doesn't go from being an All-Star one year to completely without value the next (unless his injured or retired obviously). The Reds should have obtained much more value for those 3 major league proven 1st round picks than they got. Wouldn't you rather have a few more prospects like Votto, Cueto or Bruce in our system today? All we got out of it is a couple of injured middle relievers. Pathetic.

[MaineRed]

Ryan Wagner was major league proven at the time of the trade?

Where do I go to see that for myself?

[pedro]

I never said Lopez was in the same league as Young or Jeter. Don't make things up.

I said Lopez was a better fielder than those two. I was just telling you what the sabermetric experts said actually. It is easily available at Baseball Prospectus and the Hardball Times websites if you want to see for yourself.

Obviously, Jeter and Young are much better offensive players than Lopez.

Giving away valuable players never makes your team better. A guy doesn't go from being an All-Star one year to completely without value the next (unless his injured or retired obviously). The Reds should have obtained much more value for those 3 major league proven 1st round picks than they got. Wouldn't you rather have a few more prospects like Votto, Cueto or Bruce in our system today? All we got out of it is a couple of injured middle relievers. Pathetic.

Even if you go by their pecota cards they have the following defensive numbers.

lopez 2005 -14 runs
lopez 2006 -16 runs

jeter 2005 +12
jeter 2005 +7

young 2005 -14
young 2006 +21

As for the merits of the trade I haven't said a thing in reply to you. All I've done is question your assertion that Lopez has good range or is better than Jeter or Young defensively. Both points I haven't seen any evidence in support of, other than your statements as to their absolute truth.

[AtomicDumpling]

Career ERA of 4.60 is right at the average major league ERA of 4.50. So he has shown he is already capable of being at least an average major league pitcher. He will improve as he gets older. His career ERA is almost as good as Bray.

[AtomicDumpling]

I was quite clear in my posts that I was quoting John Dewans The Fielding Bible.

It is available at any book store or on Amazon.com.

Lopez' career fielding ranges are better than Jeter or Young. The thing that hurts Lopez is his throwing. That is what I have been saying all along. I never said Lopez was a good defensive player. I just said his range was good and his throwing sucked. Why can't you understand that?

You guys are going off on a tangent to distract people from the main point of this thread: The Reds got screwed on the trade.

[pedro]

I was quite clear in my posts that I was quoting John Dewans The Fielding Bible.

It is available at any book store or on Amazon.com.

Lopez' career fielding ranges are better than Jeter or Young. The thing that hurts Lopez is his throwing. That is what I have been saying all along. I never said Lopez was a good defensive player. I just said his range was good and his throwing sucked. Why can't you understand that?

You guys are going off on a tangent to distract people from the main point of this thread: The Reds got screwed on the trade.

You've also referred to the baseball prospectus and hardball times, which I have already purchased and have sitting on the desk in front of me and which, despite your assertions to the contrary, don't back up your arguments about range or overall defensive ability. I don't think I need to buy another book, thanks.

[AtomicDumpling]

What are the range factors for the careers of Lopez and Jeter? Not just Jeter's best year but his career? You selectively quoted fielding runs for Jeter's best year. You did not quote range for his career.

You have not given any evidence that Jeter has good fielding range. None.

Like I said. Lopez has better range. Jeter makes better throws and makes fewer errors (because he doesn't reach as many balls?)

If you go a long way and reach a ball you are going to have to rush the throw and possibly make an error. If you don't get there at all (like Jeter) then you won't make an error. Make sense?

It is only common sense that you could receive more in trade for an All-Star shortstop than merely an injured middle reliever. That is the point I have been making in this thread. Don't try to confuse the issue with Jeter's fielding prowess.

[pedro]

What are the range factors for the careers of Lopez and Jeter? Not just Jeter's best year but his career? You selectively quoted fielding runs for Jeter's best year. You did not quote range for his career.

You have not given any evidence that Jeter has good fielding range. None.

Like I said. Lopez has better range. Jeter makes better throws and makes fewer errors (because he doesn't reach as many balls?)

.

Jeter has a career RF of 4.20. Lopez' is 4.14.

There is absolutely no evidence that Lopez, at this point in his career, or over the last 2 years, has better range than Jeter. At best, it may be a wash, but I don't even believe that. And that's with the acceptance that Jeter isn't a player with great range.

[Falls City Beer]

Defensive stats are like porn: everyone uses them, but no one knows what they say.

[pedro]

so are words.

[Falls City Beer]

so are words.

Speak for yourself. :)

[pedro]

Speak for yourself. :)


I speak for the trees.
http://ecenter.colorado.edu/earthed/images/lorax.jpg

[REDREAD]

Ryan Wagner was major league proven at the time of the trade?

Where do I go to see that for myself?


If you are addressing me, I just said that I predicted around Aug/Sept 2006 that Wagner has a good shot of outperforming Maj in 2007. I said that before I saw Maj might be out for the year. Maj was that bad, and once again, the Reds med staff was negligiant.
Doc Hollywood gave Maj the usual treatment. Rest 15 days. Minor league rehab. Ignore the problem until major surgery is needed.

There was no reason at all not to completely shut down Maj last year and then hope he healed over the winter, if the diagnosis was that he was overworked. It would've also strengthened the Reds' greivence claim.
Instead the Reds pitched him in games that meant nothing (minor league rehab) and the major league games where he was clearly not going to contribute positively. Of course, Doc Hollywood doesn't care, because now he's going to make good money operating on another player, plus he'll have another ML player to chat with during rehab. And yes, I said Doc was wrong last year immediately after they started pitching Maj in rehab games.

[fisch11]

Did that trade make the team better now or is it due to other players Krivsky signed? If it's the trade, it's quite a feat since none of the players that came over are on the active roster.

Cause and effect. The current roster is the "effect" of the trade. (i.e. Jr. in right, Hamilton on the club, Gonzalez as SS, etc)

[BRM]

Cause and effect. The current roster is the "effect" of the trade. (i.e. Jr. in right, Hamilton on the club, Gonzalez as SS, etc)

Hamilton could be on the club either way. Junior could have been in RF either way. I'll give you Gonzo.

[DTCromer]

If you are addressing me, I just said that I predicted around Aug/Sept 2006 that Wagner has a good shot of outperforming Maj in 2007. I said that before I saw Maj might be out for the year. Maj was that bad, and once again, the Reds med staff was negligiant.
Doc Hollywood gave Maj the usual treatment. Rest 15 days. Minor league rehab. Ignore the problem until major surgery is needed.

There was no reason at all not to completely shut down Maj last year and then hope he healed over the winter, if the diagnosis was that he was overworked. It would've also strengthened the Reds' greivence claim.
Instead the Reds pitched him in games that meant nothing (minor league rehab) and the major league games where he was clearly not going to contribute positively. Of course, Doc Hollywood doesn't care, because now he's going to make good money operating on another player, plus he'll have another ML player to chat with during rehab. And yes, I said Doc was wrong last year immediately after they started pitching Maj in rehab games.


Do you have a link to Doc Hollywood saying he didn't care?

[RedEye]

Cause and effect. The current roster is the "effect" of the trade. (i.e. Jr. in right, Hamilton on the club, Gonzalez as SS, etc)

Um... that's a stretch of historical causality to say the least. I hate this sort of ex post facto logic.

IMO, it's well nigh impossible to draw any kind of dependable causal line from The Trade to Gonazlez at SS, Hamilton on the bench, and Junior in right. All three of those things could have happened without The Trade, and they happened because of more proximate decisions that were made on their own merits, whether or not Kearns, Lopez and Wagner were still with the team.

To wit...

Gonzalez could have ended up the starting SS if we had chosen to trade Phillips and move Felipe to 2B. We also had Rey Olmedo, Juan Castro, and Paul Janish as potential high-impact defensive replacements for him.

Hamilton probably would have been signed regardless of the presence of Kearns (just like Phillips was signed at low value when we already had a gazillion other middle infielders on the team). He'd probably also still be on the bench... like he is now, of course.

Junior was going to move out of CF regardless, it was just a question of who would play in his stead. Kearns could have done that, too.

The only "effects" of The Trade that we know for certain are these: Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris, Gary Majewski, Bill Bray and Daryl Thompson all became Reds.

Stop trying to rationalize Wayne errors with retroactive logic that doesn't make any sense!

[AtomicDumpling]

Um... that's a stretch of historical causality to say the least. I hate this sort of ex post facto logic.

IMO, it's well nigh impossible to draw any kind of dependable causal line from The Trade to Gonazlez at SS, Hamilton on the bench, and Junior in right. All three of those things could have happened without The Trade, and they happened because of more proximate decisions that were made on their own merits, whether or not Kearns, Lopez and Wagner were still with the team.

To wit...

Gonzalez could have ended up the starting SS if we had chosen to trade Phillips and move Felipe to 2B. We also had Rey Olmedo, Juan Castro, and Paul Janish as potential high-impact defensive replacements for him.

Hamilton probably would have been signed regardless of the presence of Kearns (just like Phillips was signed at low value when we already had a gazillion other middle infielders on the team). He'd probably also still be on the bench... like he is now, of course.

Junior was going to move out of CF regardless, it was just a question of who would play in his stead. Kearns could have done that, too.

The only "effects" of The Trade that we know for certain are these: Royce Clayton, Brendan Harris, Gary Majewski, Bill Bray and Daryl Thompson all became Reds.

Stop trying to rationalize Wayne errors with retroactive logic that doesn't make any sense!

I agree with you 100%.

Here is the way I see it:
If the Reds had not made the infamous trade the team would probably have shaken out like this.

C Ross
1B Hatteberg or free agent upgrade (Frank Thomas?, see below)
2B Lopez
SS Phillips
3B Encarnacion
LF Dunn
CF Kearns
RF Griffey

S1 Harang
S2 Arroyo
S3 Free Agent Upgrade (Greg Maddux?)
S4 Belisle/Lohse
S5 Milton

Bullpen: Weathers, Coffey, Stanton, Burton, Belisle/Lohse, Saarloos, Cormier

Bench: Freel, Hamilton, Valentin, Hatteberg, Castro

Since we don't currently have available the services of ANY of the players we received in The Trade, we were forced to spend ALL of our offseason free agent money to replace the players we gave away in The Trade.

Since we had no decent option to replace Lopez we were forced to spend a huge portion of our budget on a free agent to replace him. We ended up having to severely overpay Gonzalez at $14 million. Moving Lopez to second and Phillips to short would have saved us $14 million. (Remember that Lopez and Kearns were making small salaries because they are still so young.)

That $14 million would have been enough to obtain a solid starting pitcher, probably good enough to fill the #3 spot in the rotation. Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas and Nomar Garciaparra all signed for less than that money. Stud closer Eric Gagne signed for $6 million and he is expected to be healthy this year.

Instead of going to the bottom of the scrap heap to sign Conine for $2 million we would have had enough of that $14 million left after signing a good SP to obtain a real upgrade to Hatteberg at first base (or move Dunn to 1st and sign a good outfielder). If you combine the money we spent on Gonzalez and Conine ($16 million) we could have gotten Greg Maddux and Frank Thomas for the same amount in 2007 (if they wanted to sign here obviously, but the price is the same). How is that for an upgrade over Lohse and Hatteberg?!

Just imagine how many runs we would score with that hitting lineup. Wow.

Our pitching rotation would be as good or better than all but a couple of teams. The bullpen would be the same as we have now. The defense would be a little weaker.

Our bench would be very solid. Freel would be an ideal utilityman and late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner. Castro is a solid glove man to play occassionally. Hatteberg would be a great pinch hitter. Hamilton has the tools to do it all someday if he can keep his head straight.

This is the way things could have been if we hadn't given two solid contributors away for free. That is two gaping holes in the lineup that ended up costing us dearly to fill.

The names I suggested above are just examples. There were many more good options to choose from. Do you guys have any ideas for what we could have done with that $16 million to improve the team?

[RedEye]

I agree with you 100%.

Here is the way I see it:
If the Reds had not made the infamous trade the team would probably have shaken out like this.

C Ross
1B Hatteberg or free agent upgrade (Frank Thomas?, see below)
2B Lopez
SS Phillips
3B Encarnacion
LF Dunn
CF Kearns
RF Griffey

S1 Harang
S2 Arroyo
S3 Free Agent Upgrade (Greg Maddux?)
S4 Belisle/Lohse
S5 Milton

Bullpen: Weathers, Coffey, Stanton, Burton, Belisle/Lohse, Saarloos, Cormier

Bench: Freel, Hamilton, Valentin, Hatteberg, Castro

Since we don't currently have available the services of ANY of the players we received in The Trade, we were forced to spend ALL of our offseason free agent money to replace the players we gave away in The Trade.

Since we had no decent option to replace Lopez we were forced to spend a huge portion of our budget on a free agent to replace him. We ended up having to severely overpay Gonzalez at $14 million. Moving Lopez to second and Phillips to short would have saved us $14 million. (Remember that Lopez and Kearns were making small salaries because they are still so young.)

That $14 million would have been enough to obtain a solid starting pitcher, probably good enough to fill the #3 spot in the rotation. Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas and Nomar Garciaparra all signed for less than that money. Stud closer Eric Gagne signed for $6 million and he is expected to be healthy this year.

Instead of going to the bottom of the scrap heap to sign Conine for $2 million we would have had enough of that $14 million left after signing a good SP to obtain a real upgrade to Hatteberg at first base (or move Dunn to 1st and sign a good outfielder). If you combine the money we spent on Gonzalez and Conine ($16 million) we could have gotten Greg Maddux and Frank Thomas for the same amount in 2007 (if they wanted to sign here obviously, but the price is the same). How is that for an upgrade over Lohse and Hatteberg?!

Just imagine how many runs we would score with that hitting lineup. Wow.

Our pitching rotation would be as good or better than all but a couple of teams. The bullpen would be the same as we have now. The defense would be a little weaker.

Our bench would be very solid. Freel would be an ideal utilityman and late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner. Castro is a solid glove man to play occassionally. Hatteberg would be a great pinch hitter. Hamilton has the tools to do it all someday if he can keep his head straight.

This is the way things could have been if we hadn't given two solid contributors away for free. That is two gaping holes in the lineup that ended up costing us dearly to fill.

The names I suggested above are just examples. There were many more good options to choose from. Do you guys have any ideas for what we could have done with that $16 million to improve the team?

I agree with your analysis, although the "what ifs" do get to be a bit too much. I am dead sick and tired of people trying to rationalize The Trade and say we are better off. If you look, you'll see that over half of my posts (not counting game threads) are probably on this topic. Am I beating a dead horse? Well, clearly the horse is not dead because we still have people racking their brains for ways to redeem Wayne on this thing. Until that stops, I won't.

[pedro]

Just imagine how many runs we would score with that hitting lineup. Wow.

Kearns in CF and Frank Thomas at 1B?

Just imagine how bad the defense would be.

[pedro]

I agree with you 100%.

Here is the way I see it:
If the Reds had not made the infamous trade the team would probably have shaken out like this.

C Ross
1B Hatteberg or free agent upgrade (Frank Thomas?, see below)
2B Lopez
SS Phillips
3B Encarnacion
LF Dunn
CF Kearns
RF Griffey

S1 Harang
S2 Arroyo
S3 Free Agent Upgrade (Greg Maddux?)
S4 Belisle/Lohse
S5 Milton

Bullpen: Weathers, Coffey, Stanton, Burton, Belisle/Lohse, Saarloos, Cormier

Bench: Freel, Hamilton, Valentin, Hatteberg, Castro

Since we don't currently have available the services of ANY of the players we received in The Trade, we were forced to spend ALL of our offseason free agent money to replace the players we gave away in The Trade.

Since we had no decent option to replace Lopez we were forced to spend a huge portion of our budget on a free agent to replace him. We ended up having to severely overpay Gonzalez at $14 million. Moving Lopez to second and Phillips to short would have saved us $14 million. (Remember that Lopez and Kearns were making small salaries because they are still so young.)

That $14 million would have been enough to obtain a solid starting pitcher, probably good enough to fill the #3 spot in the rotation. Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas and Nomar Garciaparra all signed for less than that money. Stud closer Eric Gagne signed for $6 million and he is expected to be healthy this year.

Instead of going to the bottom of the scrap heap to sign Conine for $2 million we would have had enough of that $14 million left after signing a good SP to obtain a real upgrade to Hatteberg at first base (or move Dunn to 1st and sign a good outfielder). If you combine the money we spent on Gonzalez and Conine ($16 million) we could have gotten Greg Maddux and Frank Thomas for the same amount in 2007 (if they wanted to sign here obviously, but the price is the same). How is that for an upgrade over Lohse and Hatteberg?!

Just imagine how many runs we would score with that hitting lineup. Wow.

Our pitching rotation would be as good or better than all but a couple of teams. The bullpen would be the same as we have now. The defense would be a little weaker.

Our bench would be very solid. Freel would be an ideal utilityman and late inning defensive replacement or pinch runner. Castro is a solid glove man to play occassionally. Hatteberg would be a great pinch hitter. Hamilton has the tools to do it all someday if he can keep his head straight.

This is the way things could have been if we hadn't given two solid contributors away for free. That is two gaping holes in the lineup that ended up costing us dearly to fill.

The names I suggested above are just examples. There were many more good options to choose from. Do you guys have any ideas for what we could have done with that $16 million to improve the team?

Your assumptions about the salaries are wrong. Gonzalez makes 3.5 Million this year which is less than what Lopez makes. The assertion that keeping Lopez and not signing Gonzalez would give the reds an additional 14 Million to sign a pitcher this season doesn't hold water.

Furthermore, Frank Thomas can't really play 1B anymore and has a 2 year 18 million dollar contract. Maddux makes 10Million this year.

[westofyou]

Frank Thomas can't really play 1B anymore 68 games in the field since 1999 says Frank is a stationary bike riding, swings in the tunnel, coat wearing, clubhouse ESPN checking DH.

[GOREDSGO32]

The trade sucks, end of story. There's no use of even defending it anymore, because we basically traded two everyday starters for no one who will even be playing on the major league team the year after currently. Horrible trade, at least Krivsky maybe learned the golden lesson of not hotshotting for players on a need basis, and for very questionable players. If you are going to overpay, do it for established players, otherwise, don't do it at all. I'm talking by overpaying in a trade for a guy who is a year by year all star or such.

Kearns and Lopez are combining for $7,400,000, which isn't a lot, but its not pocket change either. We got screwed on the trade, bottom line, but its over now - and its obvious Krivsky has been trying to change the philosophy of the team from the batting practice strikeout low defense players of the Bowden days which carried over to Dan O Brien, to more fundamentally sound defensive players.

We lost on the trade, could have gotten at least one contributer out of it, at the very least, obviously ... but its over, and it's not really handicapping the team in those positions anyway.

[pedro]

The trade sucks, end of story. There's no use of even defending it anymore, because we basically traded two everyday starters for no one who will even be playing on the major league team the year after currently. Horrible trade, at least Krivsky maybe learned the golden lesson of not hotshotting for players on a need basis, and for very questionable players. If you are going to overpay, do it for established players, otherwise, don't do it at all. I'm talking by overpaying in a trade for a guy who is a year by year all star or such.

Kearns and Lopez are combining for $7,400,000, which isn't a lot, but its not pocket change either. We got screwed on the trade, bottom line, but its over now - and its obvious Krivsky has been trying to change the philosophy of the team from the batting practice strikeout low defense players of the Bowden days which carried over to Dan O Brien, to more fundamentally sound defensive players.

We lost on the trade, could have gotten at least one contributer out of it, at the very least, obviously ... but its over, and it's not really handicapping the team in those positions anyway.

Bray and Majewski, while maybe not good return for Lopez & Kearns, will certainly be playing in the majors for the next several years.