Todd Coffey is a Joke!

[mroby85]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!

[Falls City Beer]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!

His pitch selection was poor, but the bags were full, right? Pretty tough spot.

[edabbs44]

Get used to the bullpen...WK spent so much time and money on "upgrading" the pen and it doesn't look a whole lot better than last year.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

He was brought into a bad situation and got 2 hitters to put the ball on the ground. Unfortunately one of them found a hole in the infield.

It's one game.

[mroby85]

but it wasn't one game last season. when did he fail last year? when he was put into the closers role and had some pressure put on him. as far as im concerned guys that can't perform under pressure are worthless, he's no more than a mop up guy. you could tell he was going to choke when he came in, by the way he was breathing heavy, he has the stuff to be great, but he doesn't have that killer mentality like good relievers do which makes him even more frustrating to me.

[wheels]

.....And so it begins.

[rotnoid]

.....And so it begins.

Had to start sometime. At least that off day bought us 24 hours.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

you could tell he was going to choke when he came in, by the way he was breathing heavy

That probably has something to do with his inclination to sprint to the mound, which I really wish he would stop doing.

[Degenerate39]

I don't like Coffey either but what can you do about it

[rotnoid]

That probably has something to do with his inclination to sprint to the mound, which I really wish he would stop doing.

Or maybe it's a bad Mike Fetters impression.

[mroby85]

I don't like Coffey either but what can you do about it

We can't do anything, but what is this message board for?

[paintmered]

We can't do anything, but what is this message board for?

It was founded on the idea of intelligent discussion. :dunno:

[6-4-3]

Coffey made DeRosa chop the ball on the ground...it found a hole. Coffey was brought into a tough spot, bases loaded, 1 out. This limits pitch selection, because the pitcher doesn't want to fall behind in the count.

Coffey does need to start coming through in situations like this, but allowing a seeing eye single tonight, on a good piece of hitting by DeRosa isn't the end of the world.

160 games left kids.

[mroby85]

oh, well pardon me, i guess i considered this intellegent conversation. Personally, I considered that a crucial time in the game.

[macro]

Did you ever open a thread, read through it, and then wish you hadn't?

EDIT: Thanks for that post, 6-4-3. I didn't see that it had been posted until I made this post and the page reloaded.

:thumbup:

[Always Red]

Did you ever open a thread, read through it, and then wish you hadn't?

you mean like, right now?

[paintmered]

oh, well pardon me, i guess i considered this intellegent conversation. Personally, I considered that a crucial time in the game.

It was a seeing-eye single at a crucial moment. Tip your cap to the timely hitting, get a good night's sleep and get them tomorrow.

Now that you've calmed down a bit, maybe you can join the rest of us. Emotion is fine (baseball wouldn't be the same without it), but it doesn't translate to good discussion. The "sky is falling" emotion after a single loss gets old quickly around here. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last.

[jojo]

He was brought into a bad situation and got 2 hitters to put the ball on the ground. Unfortunately one of them found a hole in the infield.

It's one game.

thats why in high leverage situations a guy who can K people is more desireable than one that induces GO ...

[dougdirt]

oh, well pardon me, i guess i considered this intellegent conversation. Personally, I considered that a crucial time in the game.

You are acting like Coffey went Brad Lidge on us. He allowed a chopper that only got through because the infield was playing in because Arroyo and Stanton left the bases loaded for him.

Its one thing to come into the game and give up a HR. Its entirely another thing to allow a chopper to get through a drawn in infield.

[jojo]

We can't do anything, but what is this message board for?

scoring dates with hot chicks?

[smith288]

Coffee sucks man! I want some latte!

[gilpdawg]

oh, well pardon me, i guess i considered this intellegent conversation. Personally, I considered that a crucial time in the game.
It's not like the guy hit a hard smash. It was an "excuse-me" hit. It happens.

[rotnoid]

scoring dates with hot chicks?

How many more rep points until I'm eligible for that?

[HumnHilghtFreel]

Coffee sucks man! I want some latte!

:laugh:

[Cyclone792]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!


oh, well pardon me, i guess i considered this intellegent conversation. Personally, I considered that a crucial time in the game.

Well, I guess Todd Coffey really is a joke just because you said so.

Then again, I decided to look at some facts myself. What I found is that last season Coffey led the Reds in games (81), relief innings (78.0), put up a near 7 K/9 ratio for the season - including a K/9 ratio of 8.16 after the All-Star Break - and oh by the way ... he also threw up a 134 ERA+.

As if that wasn't enough, of Coffey's 340 total batter's faced in 2006, 230 of them were in "Late and Close" situations, which is defined as plate appearances in the 7th inning or later when the batting team is tied, ahead by one run, or has the tying run at least in the on-deck circle. And in those 230 "Late and Close" plate appearances, Coffey's opponent's OPS was a mere .713, which is also roughly 50 points lower than the average NL hitter.

Todd Coffey is a quality relief pitcher, and this bullpen needs more Todd Coffeys.

[smith288]

How many more rep points until I'm eligible for that?
FCB levels..

[rotnoid]

FCB levels..

...Must make insightful comment...

[reds44]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!
Just for fun.

Todd Coffey:
.2 IP
1 H
0 ER

Victor Santos:
.2 IP
0 H
0 ER

Those 2 runs go on the Narron/Arroyo combo, not Coffey.

[smith288]

I didnt say insightful comments were necessary. I said FCB levels. ;)

[OnBaseMachine]

Todd Coffey is the best relief pitcher the Reds have. I wish we had six more Todd Coffey's.

You know what the joke was? Narron leaving Arroyo in for the 8th inning after he had already thrown 100 pitches on a cold night.

[6-4-3]

EDIT: Thanks for that post, 6-4-3. I didn't see that it had been posted until I made this post and the page reloaded.


Thanks


Victor Santos:
.2 IP
0 H
0 ER


I was impressed with Santos tonight, however I would consider Coffey's situation a tougher challenge than Santos. Based on the 2-1 score w/ bases full compared to 4-1 score runners on 1st and 2nd. Still solid job by Santos.

[reds44]

oh, well pardon me, i guess i considered this intellegent conversation. Personally, I considered that a crucial time in the game.
Well gee wizz dude, maybe if you would stop being so sarcastic then somebody would take you seriously.

Golley, maybe if you brought some facts into this thread instead of this guys a joke and really just talking out of your (butt), then it would be an intellegent conversation.

You have to come with some substance, or guys like Cyclone and others will eat you up and swallow you whole.

[mroby85]

i don't even know what to say, i mean stats aren't everything. santos obviously pitched better than todd coffey tonight, and against tougher hitters. i wouldn't be feeling this way if coffey didn't blow up so much last year in crucial situations. you can pull out whatever stats that you want to from last season, buf if you watched the games, you know that todd coffey didn't pitch well in crucial situations. i'm not trying to come off with "the sky is falling" attitude, i think they have the potential to do some decent things this year, but i get tired of the same guys blowing up all the time. some stats are ridiculous, such as tonight when coffey ends up with 0 ER. and Bronson's ERA is over 5 now, you can't tell me that is a true gage on the way tonights game went. it's danny graves revisited, and people will probably catch on after he sucks for a long time, just like they did with danny graves.

[as_v_1]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!

Yea I know what you mean. How did this bum make the team? Where is Rick White when you need him....ok really the guy comes in with the bases juiced. he gets a ground ball that’s exactly what you want. just bad luck that it found a hole and didn’t get turned for a DP.

[rotnoid]

some stats are ridiculous, such as tonight when coffey ends up with 0 ER. and Bronson's ERA is over 5 now, you can't tell me that is a true gage on the way tonights game went. it's danny graves revisited, and people will probably catch on after he sucks for a long time, just like they did with danny graves.

Put on your helmet dude, the stats are coming.

[paintmered]

it's danny graves revisited, and people will probably catch on after he sucks for a long time, just like they did with danny graves.

Just so you know, his brother is an active poster here. Dressing your drivel with some tact might make folks take you a little more seriously around here.

[dougdirt]

i don't even know what to say, i mean stats aren't everything. santos obviously pitched better than todd coffey tonight, and against tougher hitters. i wouldn't be feeling this way if coffey didn't blow up so much last year in crucial situations. you can pull out whatever stats that you want to from last season, buf if you watched the games, you know that todd coffey didn't pitch well in crucial situations. i'm not trying to come off with "the sky is falling" attitude, i think they have the potential to do some decent things this year, but i get tired of the same guys blowing up all the time. some stats are ridiculous, such as tonight when coffey ends up with 0 ER. and Bronson's ERA is over 5 now, you can't tell me that is a true gage on the way tonights game went. it's danny graves revisited, and people will probably catch on after he sucks for a long time, just like they did with danny graves.

Well, Todd Coffey allowed 1 hit and he got 2 outs. Bronson left 2 runners on base and didn't get anyone out that inning before he was removed. If Arroyo was left in, he might have given up 5 more runs. So yeah, that is pretty much how the game went.

[reds44]

i don't even know what to say, i mean stats aren't everything. santos obviously pitched better than todd coffey tonight, and against tougher hitters. i wouldn't be feeling this way if coffey didn't blow up so much last year in crucial situations. you can pull out whatever stats that you want to from last season, buf if you watched the games, you know that todd coffey didn't pitch well in crucial situations. i'm not trying to come off with "the sky is falling" attitude, i think they have the potential to do some decent things this year, but i get tired of the same guys blowing up all the time. some stats are ridiculous, such as tonight when coffey ends up with 0 ER. and Bronson's ERA is over 5 now, you can't tell me that is a true gage on the way tonights game went. it's danny graves revisited, and people will probably catch on after he sucks for a long time, just like they did with danny graves.
What do you mean in clutch situations? As a closer? He struggled as the closer, there's no doubt about it. Some guys just don't have the mental make-up to be closers. I don't know if that's the case for Coffey.

Yes, in the entire 2/3rds of an inning they both worked tonight Santos pitched better.

How about we take a look at large sample size shall we?

Todd Coffey:
136.2 IP
170 H
38 BB
86 K
3.95 ERA

He had a 3.58 ERA in 06.

Victor Santos;
539.2 IP
604 H
246 BB
378
5.14 ERA
22-42 career record

5.70 ERA in 06.

But wait, I'm sure Todd has and extremely misleading 137 IP, and Victor has just been so unlucky in his 540 innings right?

Todd Coffey has much better pure stuff then Graves and his gravity ball.

Let me ask you this, who do you want out on the mound in a key spot? I'll take Coffey 13 times out of 10.

[RFS62]

i don't even know what to say, i mean stats aren't everything. santos obviously pitched better than todd coffey tonight, and against tougher hitters. i wouldn't be feeling this way if coffey didn't blow up so much last year in crucial situations. you can pull out whatever stats that you want to from last season, buf if you watched the games, you know that todd coffey didn't pitch well in crucial situations. i'm not trying to come off with "the sky is falling" attitude, i think they have the potential to do some decent things this year, but i get tired of the same guys blowing up all the time. some stats are ridiculous, such as tonight when coffey ends up with 0 ER. and Bronson's ERA is over 5 now, you can't tell me that is a true gage on the way tonights game went. it's danny graves revisited, and people will probably catch on after he sucks for a long time, just like they did with danny graves.



And just like we all know that Bronson's ERA isn't representative of how he pitched tonight, we also know that a seeing eye grounder doesn't mean Coffey sucks.

Looks like we're gonna have to increase the prozac ration around here.

[mroby85]

Well, Todd Coffey allowed 1 hit and he got 2 outs. Bronson left 2 runners on base and didn't get anyone out that inning before he was removed. If Arroyo was left in, he might have given up 5 more runs. So yeah, that is pretty much how the game went.

I give up, coffey gave up the big hit before he got the 2 outs. arroyo pitched stellar, i doubt that he would've even given up the 2, but this is just hypothetic mumbo jumbo that can't be backed up.

[HumnHilghtFreel]

I give up, coffey gave up the big hit before he got the 2 outs. arroyo pitched stellar, i doubt that he would've even given up the 2, but this is just hypothetic mumbo jumbo that can't be backed up.

If DeRosa had hammered the ball, I could possibly see where you're coming from. He didn't though. He hit a grounder that found a hole. The next batter rolled into a double play. Some posters around here might say that Coffey was BABIP unlucky tonight. It happens and we should move on. There's a long way to go in this season.

[mroby85]

first of all, i didn't say santo's was the next closer, so i don't know where that came from, all i said was he looked good in this game.

also the stats you gave were of santos as a starter, he only pitched one season as a reliever and had a nice season.

and if you don't have the mental makeup to be a closer, why do you have the mental makeup to come in with the bases loaded and 1 out? thats all i've been trying to say all along, is that he's a choker, or if you want it in nicer terms "he doesn't have the mental makeup"

[reds44]

also the stats you gave were of santos as a starter, he only pitched one season as a reliever and had a nice season.

0h Rly???

His 4.94 career ERA out of the pen says otherwise.

[mroby85]

Todd Coffey probably gave up all his runs, lol j/k.

[RFS62]

"he doesn't have the mental makeup"


Very early in the season to get this kind of irony.

:help:

[mroby85]

it didn't start this season for me, but im gonna drop it now, i knew it wasn't going to be a popular post, but i needed to get it off my back.

[6-4-3]

I give up, coffey gave up the big hit before he got the 2 outs. arroyo pitched stellar, i doubt that he would've even given up the 2, but this is just hypothetic mumbo jumbo that can't be backed up.

You're correct about it being hypothetical. But let's take a step back and view the situation...Arroyo is entering his 8th inning of work and is 100+ pitches, it is 20 degrees cold, he has pitched well throughout, and has now allowed the 1st 2 runners in the 8th to reach base. This is an indicator that he may be near the end of his outing.

Stanton comes on and does his job, then Coffey is brought into the game. He is the best option the Reds currently have for a situation like this in the bullpen. That perhaps is not the best situation, but it is the current situation for this ballclub. If you honestly believed Bronson could've got out of the inning w/o allowing a run, then leave him in. But for my $ the correct moves were made (I wouldn't allowed Arroyo to start the 8th), giving the Reds the best chance to stay in a 2-1 game.

[Caveat Emperor]

you can pull out whatever stats that you want to from last season, buf if you watched the games, you know that todd coffey didn't pitch well in crucial situations.

You mean other than the stats like his better than 2-1 K/BB ratio and 3.46 ERA? Or maybe that less than 25% of his inherited runners scored over the course of 81 appearences.

I guess those stats don't matter.

[mroby85]

the one thing, i think you're looking past is who arroyo gave those hits up to, its not a crime to give up back to back singles to derek lee, and aramis ramirez, in my opinion, but once again, we'll never know what wouldve happened.

[rotnoid]

the one thing, i think you're looking past is who arroyo gave those hits up to, its not a crime to give up back to back singles to derek lee, and aramis ramirez, in my opinion, but once again, we'll never know what wouldve happened.

Even more reason Arroyo should have never been out there for the 8th.

[reds44]

the one thing, i think you're looking past is who arroyo gave those hits up to, its not a crime to give up back to back singles to derek lee, and aramis ramirez, in my opinion, but once again, we'll never know what wouldve happened.
Nobody is ripping on Arroyo. People are saying Narron shouldn't have let him go out there for the 8th.

[gilpdawg]

Well, I guess Todd Coffey really is a joke just because you said so.

Then again, I decided to look at some facts myself. What I found is that last season Coffey led the Reds in games (81), relief innings (78.0), put up a near 7 K/9 ratio for the season - including a K/9 ratio of 8.16 after the All-Star Break - and oh by the way ... he also threw up a 134 ERA+.

As if that wasn't enough, of Coffey's 340 total batter's faced in 2006, 230 of them were in "Late and Close" situations, which is defined as plate appearances in the 7th inning or later when the batting team is tied, ahead by one run, or has the tying run at least in the on-deck circle. And in those 230 "Late and Close" plate appearances, Coffey's opponent's OPS was a mere .713, which is also roughly 50 points lower than the average NL hitter.

Todd Coffey is a quality relief pitcher, and this bullpen needs more Todd Coffeys.
And that, my friend, is how you make a point. If I was able to give rep I would. Great post.

[mroby85]

how about looking at coffey's ERA after may last year.

June 5.84
July 5.59
August 5.79
september 2.45
october 9.00

so basically he had 3 good months out of the season, and the rest of the year he sucked.

[dougdirt]

Coffey had 3 good months and 3 not so good months.

[mroby85]

mid to high 5's out of the bullpen isn't "not so good" it's terrible, that means more times than not you're going to give up a run when having 1 inning of work.

[rotnoid]

how about looking at coffey's ERA after may last year.

June 5.84
July 5.59
August 5.79
september 2.45
october 9.00

so basically he had 3 good months out of the season, and the rest of the year he sucked.

That's one way to look at it, so is this...

Mar/Apr 0.60
May 1.80
Jun 5.84
Jul 5.59
Aug 5.79
Sep/Oct 3.00

Notice I've included the "good" months to show how shut down he was early in the year. Those months in the middle represent the failed closer experiment and the left over effects thereof. We'll all admit he didn't work out last year as the closer, but his stuff is nasty at times and he has been one of the better members of this bullpen.

[pedro]

Boo on this thread.

[mroby85]

so what, you can't just cancel out his bad outings and show the good ones, just because you admit it. i admit he had a low era in april and may,but when he got put in PRESSURE situations he folded like a law chair.

[roby]

Thanks



I was impressed with Santos tonight, however I would consider Coffey's situation a tougher challenge than Santos. Based on the 2-1 score w/ bases full compared to 4-1 score runners on 1st and 2nd. Still solid job by Santos.

Yea...many thanks to Coffey for clearing the bases for him! :devil:

[kaldaniels]

I give up, coffey gave up the big hit before he got the 2 outs. arroyo pitched stellar, i doubt that he would've even given up the 2, but this is just hypothetic mumbo jumbo that can't be backed up.

Just poor posting. I am sorry. I don't know if I have ever seen such claims with nothing to back them. Do you really think Arroyo was going to get out of that inning scot-free with no outs on runners on 1st and 2nd?? A sac bunt + a hit scores 2 runs. And thats what happened. And yes, the majority of the blame does and should go to the guy that put the men on.

[rotnoid]

so what, you can't just cancel out his bad outings and show the good ones, just because you admit it. i admit he had a low era in april and may,but when he got put in PRESSURE situations he folded like a law chair.


So here's where we are. We're not going to let silly things like facts get in the way of our judgement here and we're mostly spinning our wheels over what was a seeing eye single on April 4. Bold statements like so and so is a joke are going to be met with a ton of backlash (or so I've found in my short time here) and sometimes it's best to just sit back and keep the fact that you're right and everyone else is dillusional to yourself.

good night, now.

[kaldaniels]

So here's where we are. We're not going to let silly things like facts get in the way of our judgement here and we're mostly spinning our wheels over what was a seeing eye single on April 4. Bold statements like so and so is a joke are going to be met with a ton of backlash (or so I've found in my short time here) and sometimes it's best to just sit back and keep the fact that you're right and everyone else is dillusional to yourself.

good night, now.

Facts???. Hogwash. The truth comes from the gut, not books. :D

EDIT - I obviously don't know how to insert pictures properly!!!

[sonny]

so what, you can't just cancel out his bad outings and show the good ones, just because you admit it. i admit he had a low era in april and may,but when he got put in PRESSURE situations he folded like a law chair.

Although I'm unclear what a law chair is, I do know that he has the tools to be a very effective oitcher. It could happen to anyone. If it was Randy Myers who gives it up, we'd say, "Well, that is unfortunate. But we can't expect him to get them all."

[roby]

Although I'm unclear what a law chair is, I do know that he has the tools to be a very effective oitcher. It could happen to anyone. If it was Randy Myers who gives it up, we'd say, "Well, that is unfortunate. But we can't expect him to get them all."

A law chair is a whole lot like a oitcher, isn't it??? :thumbup:

[harangatang]

I think this blunder can rest solely on the fact that Arroyo came back in when his time was over. That last curve ball he threw before Narron pulled him was so flat. Coffey induced the groundball and unfortunately it didn't go as well as planned. The Reds couldn't score tonight so it really wouldn't have mattered anyway.

[dougdirt]

The Reds couldn't score tonight so it really wouldn't have mattered anyway.

best thing said in this thread all night.

[TeamBoone]

how about looking at coffey's ERA after may last year.

June 5.84
July 5.59
August 5.79
september 2.45
october 9.00

so basically he had 3 good months out of the season, and the rest of the year he sucked.


Kind of surprising that October is even included. Didn't they play only one game?

[dougdirt]

Coffey pitched 1 inning and allowed 1 run in October.

[harangatang]

Coffey pitched 1 inning and allowed 1 run in October.That's horrible...kick him to the curb.:D

[kaldaniels]

Kind of surprising that October is even included. Didn't they play only one game?

Thats for pointing out that statistical manipulation! :thumbup:

[sonny]

A law chair is a whole lot like a oitcher, isn't it??? :thumbup:

damn! I gots me sum egg all ovah mah face

[M2]

Was it Eat Your Own Wednesday at the GAB? Being out of town I don't follow the ballpark promotions.

[Topcat]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!


Glad you have only few posts. Now please look at the big picture before stating stupidity in the future. Coffey will do far more good than 1 game defining garbage dribble posts that you decide to state opinions on.

[AtomicDumpling]

Sometimes you have to look beyond the simple result of the play to see if someone screwed up. Just because a guy got a base hit doesn't necessarily mean the pitcher threw a bad pitch.

Coffey came in and got the third best outcome we could have hoped for - a common groundball. If we couldn't get a strikeout or a popup then a groundball is the next best thing. This groundball just happened to find a gap between the fielders. It wasn't a particularly hard hit ball at all.

Remember the diving catch that Freel made in the gap on Monday? Does the fact that particular pitch ended in an out mean it was a well-thrown pitch? Does the fact that DeRosa's grounder made it through the infield mean that Coffey made a mistake on the pitch?

Sometimes a hitter is able to crush a perfectly thrown pitch. Sometimes a hitter completely misses a hanging curveball over the middle of the plate. That is baseball. I don't think it is fair to say a pitcher sucks because he allows one hit.

Coffey's record last year showed that he is a better than average pitcher. I think he has very good stuff and I think he will be successful more often than not in the future. I wish we had several Todd Coffeys on the Reds.

[Razor Shines]

While I completely disagree with him, I don't understand why mroby85 is getting run down so much. Maybe I missed it but he wasn't overly critical of Coffey in calling him names or anything, mroby85 just doesn't think he's a good pitcher. I think he's wrong. In fact I think it's a pretty dumb post, I think Coffey gave up a half-way hard grounder that got through, unlucky. I just haven't read anything blatantly offensive that he wrote to deserve all this, and I don't mean just the responses to him.

Again maybe I'm missing it.

[AtomicDumpling]

While I completely disagree with him, I don't understand why mroby85 is getting run down so much. Maybe I missed it but he wasn't overly critical of Coffey in calling him names or anything, mroby85 just doesn't think he's a good pitcher. I think he's wrong, I think Coffey gave up a half-way hard grounder that got through, unlucky. I just haven't read anything blatantly offensive that he wrote to deserve all this, and I don't mean just the responses to him.

Again maybe I'm missing it.

I agree that we shouldn't be hard on a new poster for stating his opinion. If we disagree we should state our reasoning and everyone can make up their own minds. Sometimes emotions get in the way though. If you want to convert someone to your way of thinking you will doom your efforts by insulting them.

[WMR]

Bababooey !!

[MartyFan]

It was founded on the idea of intelligent discussion. :dunno:

You're kidding, right? :)

[Jpup]

great thread. :thumbdown :thumbdown

[jojo]

While I completely disagree with him, I don't understand why mroby85 is getting run down so much. Maybe I missed it but he wasn't overly critical of Coffey in calling him names or anything, mroby85 just doesn't think he's a good pitcher. I think he's wrong. In fact I think it's a pretty dumb post, I think Coffey gave up a half-way hard grounder that got through, unlucky. I just haven't read anything blatantly offensive that he wrote to deserve all this, and I don't mean just the responses to him.

Again maybe I'm missing it.

I think EVERYONE is missing the point....this is clearly Narron's fault.... everyone knows that more groundballs go for hits than flyballs.... Baseball guy should've clearly brought in a pitcher with extreme flyball tendencies... :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


:cool:

[jojo]

Sometimes you have to look beyond the simple result of the play to see if someone screwed up. Just because a guy got a base hit doesn't necessarily mean the pitcher threw a bad pitch.

Coffey came in and got the third best outcome we could have hoped for - a common groundball. If we couldn't get a strikeout or a popup then a groundball is the next best thing. This groundball just happened to find a gap between the fielders. It wasn't a particularly hard hit ball at all.

Remember the diving catch that Freel made in the gap on Monday? Does the fact that particular pitch ended in an out mean it was a well-thrown pitch? Does the fact that DeRosa's grounder made it through the infield mean that Coffey made a mistake on the pitch?

Sometimes a hitter is able to crush a perfectly thrown pitch. Sometimes a hitter completely misses a hanging curveball over the middle of the plate. That is baseball. I don't think it is fair to say a pitcher sucks because he allows one hit.

Coffey's record last year showed that he is a better than average pitcher. I think he has very good stuff and I think he will be successful more often than not in the future. I wish we had several Todd Coffeys on the Reds.

Seriously for a moment. I think Narron's decision was a sound one. He brought in his best bullpen arm (who happens to have ground ball tendencies which plays to the defense and the situation) into a very high leverage situation late in the game. However, one issue here is that though Coffey is the best the Reds have right now, he's a good bullpen arm-not a great one. It's these little details that portend a bit ominously for the Reds in '07 IMHO...

[membengal]

I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!

Simply an insane post.

I don't understand why the concept of failure and chance is so hard for people to grasp when it comes to baseball.

He got the grounder the Reds needed. It just wasn't at somebody. What else is there?

The following people "failed" last night for the Reds:

Freel
Phillips
Dunn
EE
Jr.
Conine
Gonzalez
Ross
Arroyo
Stanton
Burton

Oh, and Narron. Him too.

Are we to have threads about each person's failures in each instance? What in the world is the standard for success when a reliever is handed a bases loaded with one out situation and induces a grounder that happens to find a hole?

At some point, REASON has to enter the discourse, or the board loses value. Shameful post.

[bucksfan2]

I am as well not a huge Coffey fan. A lot of people like him on this site so I guess I am in the minority. I dont think he has what it takes to be brought into a tight situation and succeed. If he starts the inning he is ok but if not its a toss up. It was only one game so I hope it is not forshadowing what is to come this season. The bottom of the Cubs lineup is pretty bad and DeRosa (i think) drove in 2 runs with the first pitch Coffey threw. He did get his double play from the next batter but at that point the pressure was off.

[membengal]

It's not about "like" or "dislike", it's about being able to view what happened with even a smidgen of objectivity. He got a grounder. Job well done. It wasn't at someone. Bad luck that. To use that as a stepping off point for criticism of a player, be it Coffey or anyone else who was brought into the bases loaded one out situation, is bad form.

And, the pressure was NOT off with the next batter. Another hit and the Reds lose a chance of three run homering back into the game. He got another ground ball, this time at someone, and inning over. He did his job. Sometimes chance intervenes. It's baseball, you know. Chance plays a HUGE part in the outcome of games...

[RFS62]

It's not about "like" or "dislike", it's about being able to view what happened with even a smidgen of objectivity. He got a grounder. Job well done. It wasn't at someone. Bad luck that. To use that as a stepping off point for criticism of a player, be it Coffey or anyone else who was brought into the bases loaded one out situation, is bad form.

And, the pressure was NOT off with the next batter. Another hit and the Reds lose a chance of three run homering back into the game. He got another ground ball, this time at someone, and inning over. He did his job. Sometimes chance intervenes. It's baseball, you know. Chance plays a HUGE part in the outcome of games...


Absolutely correct.

[sonny]

It's not about "like" or "dislike", it's about being able to view what happened with even a smidgen of objectivity. He got a grounder. Job well done. It wasn't at someone. Bad luck that. To use that as a stepping off point for criticism of a player, be it Coffey or anyone else who was brought into the bases loaded one out situation, is bad form.

And, the pressure was NOT off with the next batter. Another hit and the Reds lose a chance of three run homering back into the game. He got another ground ball, this time at someone, and inning over. He did his job. Sometimes chance intervenes. It's baseball, you know. Chance plays a HUGE part in the outcome of games...

Well said. Coffey did his job, so did DeRosa.

[lollipopcurve]

Coffey did his job, so did DeRosa.

Agreed -- but between the two, I'll take Coffey's approach over Derosa's in that situation.

[BRM]

Boy am I glad I was away from RedsZone last night. Emotions are running high early again this year.

[bucksfan2]

Agreed -- but between the two, I'll take Coffey's approach over Derosa's in that situation.

Yea I would rather take a pitcher who served up a 2 run hit over a hitter who hit a hard ball through the infield.

[hebroncougar]

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I can tell you this. Coffey threw a good pitch, and got a groundball to the left side, which is exactly what the situation called for (other than a K). It was a fastball with movement, on the inner half of the plate. Good pitch, bad luck. If he makes that pitch again, he's going to get his DP probably 8 out of 10 times.

[BRM]

I'm not going to read the whole thread, but I can tell you this. Coffey threw a good pitch, and got a groundball to the left side, which is exactly what the situation called for (other than a K). It was a fastball with movement, on the inner half of the plate. Good pitch, bad luck. If he makes that pitch again, he's going to get his DP probably 8 out of 10 times.

Exactly.

[Razor Shines]

Yea I would rather take a pitcher who served up a 2 run hit over a hitter who hit a hard ball through the infield.

That ball wasn't hit that hard. I'll bet more often than not if you hit a chopper like that the other team will turn a double play. Coffey made a good pitch and DeRosa got his bat on it, if you take luck out I'd say it was at best a wash.

[coachw513]

but this is just hypothetic mumbo jumbo that can't be backed up.

Forgive me for not reading the rest of the thread, but this clearly was the high point for me :thumbup:

[coachw513]

Simply an insane post.

I don't understand why the concept of failure and chance is so hard for people to grasp when it comes to baseball.

He got the grounder the Reds needed. It just wasn't at somebody. What else is there?

The following people "failed" last night for the Reds:

Freel
Phillips
Dunn
EE
Jr.
Conine
Gonzalez
Ross
Arroyo
Stanton
Burton

Oh, and Narron. Him too.

Are we to have threads about each person's failures in each instance? What in the world is the standard for success when a reliever is handed a bases loaded with one out situation and induces a grounder that happens to find a hole?

At some point, REASON has to enter the discourse, or the board loses value. Shameful post.

And yet we gave this thought 5 pages of dialogue...it's why I forced myself to stay away for the morning...but I couldn't resist the fun on this thread :D

Oh by the way, great post :beerme:

[M2]

It's not about "like" or "dislike", it's about being able to view what happened with even a smidgen of objectivity. He got a grounder. Job well done. It wasn't at someone. Bad luck that. To use that as a stepping off point for criticism of a player, be it Coffey or anyone else who was brought into the bases loaded one out situation, is bad form.

And, the pressure was NOT off with the next batter. Another hit and the Reds lose a chance of three run homering back into the game. He got another ground ball, this time at someone, and inning over. He did his job. Sometimes chance intervenes. It's baseball, you know. Chance plays a HUGE part in the outcome of games...

Well, sure, if you're going to be rational about it.

[Chip R]

Forgive me for not reading the rest of the thread, but this clearly was the high point for me :thumbup:


I particularly enjoyed these two posts.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285594&postcount=53

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285608&postcount=58

[rotnoid]

I particularly enjoyed these two posts.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285594&postcount=53 (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285594&postcount=53)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285608&postcount=58

Hey, that 1 run in one inning in October proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Coffey's done. :mooner:

[Razor Shines]

I particularly enjoyed these two posts.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285594&postcount=53 (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285594&postcount=53)

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1285608&postcount=58

Do law chairs fold easily? Apparently I didn't read the entire thread either, because I didn't see these.

[lollipopcurve]

Yea I would rather take a pitcher who served up a 2 run hit over a hitter who hit a hard ball through the infield.

Problem with Derosa's approach there was that he swung at the first pitch with the bases juiced (off a pitcher he very well may have never seen before).

[Spring~Fields]

I thought that Lilly was a much bigger problem than Coffey was. ;)

[bucksfan2]

I find it curious how many people are saying that coffey did his job. Coffey didn't do his job. His job was to strand the runners on base. It was not an easy job but none the less that was what he was supposed to do. I would have prefered him to try and strike out DeRosa. Any time you put the ball in play you risk the chance that it is going to be a hit.

[westofyou]

When you aim for perfection, you discover it's a moving target.

[Always Red]

I would have prefered him to try and strike out DeRosa. Any time you put the ball in play you risk the chance that it is going to be a hit.

I'm sure Todd Coffey would have preferred to K him, too; doesn't always happen, not even for Rob Dibble or Eric Gange. ;)

He did the 2nd best thing, which was to get him to hit the ball sharply on the ground. 10 feet to the left or right, and it's a double play (and the Reds still lose, anyway). The he retired the next two hitters, IIRC.

Technically, no, Coffey did not do his job. I'm sure he would tell you that today.
He was put into a tough spot, and did OK. He didn't walk anyone, give up a long bomb or a bases clearing gapper.

There are very, very few shut down relievers, who can get K's and double play balls on demand. This team doesn't have one.

I think way too much is being made of Coffey's appearance last night.

The reason the Reds lost? Ted Lilley and the lack of Reds offense.

[registerthis]

103 replies about a bouncing ground ball between SS and 3B.

The season must have started.

[macro]

Boy am I glad I was away from RedsZone last night. Emotions are running high early again this year.

Can you imagine how much different things would be here if the Reds were 2-0 instead of 1-1?

[paintmered]

Can you imagine how much different things would be here if the Reds were 2-0 instead of 1-1?

We'd be printing World Series tickets.

[Team Clark]

103 replies about a bouncing ground ball between SS and 3B.

The season must have started.

Back in the saddle again...:laugh:

It's like a car accident. I just can't help but look! ;)

[redsmetz]

We'd be printing World Series tickets.

Here ya go

http://www.crosley-field.com/images/ticket5.jpg

[RFS62]

Coffey did his job.

It's some of the fans who should be fired or sent down to AAA.

[texasdave]

If Coffey's job was to hold the score at 2-1 then he didn't do his job.

Let me play Devil's Advocate here for a second. Say it is the same scenario and this time DeRosa lines sharply down the left field line but EE snags it and steps on 3rd base to double off the runner. No runs would have scored, but would you say in this case that Coffey did his job? I think most people would answer that affirmatively. They would contend that since the Cubs did not score that Coffey did his job. But according to the standards being set by many people in this thread I would think the correct answer would have to be no, he didn't do his job. And since these things tend to even out in the long run I suppose judging a pitcher strictly on the results of the inning is as fair a method as any.

[blumj]

I find it curious how many people are saying that coffey did his job. Coffey didn't do his job. His job was to strand the runners on base. It was not an easy job but none the less that was what he was supposed to do. I would have prefered him to try and strike out DeRosa. Any time you put the ball in play you risk the chance that it is going to be a hit.
I always kind of wonder if a GB pitcher goes into a situation like that thinking he's supposed to try to get a DP, and how that effects his pitch selection, where his intent might not be what you really want it to be for a relief pitcher put in that situation in a close game late.

[RFS62]

If Coffey missed his spot and allowed a hitter to square up in the exact same situation as last night, all the players and coaches would have agreed with you that he didn't do his job.

On the other hand, if he hit his spot with the his best pitch and the hitter hit a seeing eye grounder, just like last night, and allowed the runs, the players and coaches would say he did his job, IMO.

The players and coaches know how difficult the game is. The fans, very often, don't know. If this thread is any indication, they not only don't know, they don't even suspect.

[bucksfan2]

Coffey did his job.

It's some of the fans who should be fired or sent down to AAA.

How did he do his job??? He did not hold the score at 2-1. He was put into a tough situation but regardless the ball made its way into the outfield and 2 runs scored. If Derosa hit a soft liner to SS did coffey not do his job because it wasnt a ground ball? If the runs score in any way Coffey did not do his job. There is no place for description runs column so it really doesn't matter how they scored, its just that they did score.

[RFS62]

How did he do his job??? He did not hold the score at 2-1. He was put into a tough situation but regardless the ball made its way into the outfield and 2 runs scored. If Derosa hit a soft liner to SS did coffey not do his job because it wasnt a ground ball? If the runs score in any way Coffey did not do his job. There is no place for description runs column so it really doesn't matter how they scored, its just that they did score.



Because sometimes you get beat on your best pitch. It's a simple fact of baseball. Sometimes you make a great pitch that ends up in the stands.

You tip your hat and go on.

The players understand this.

[westofyou]

The players understand this.Otherwise they'll end up like Willard Hershberger.

[pedro]

A lot of good pitchers give up 1 hit per inning on average.

[jojo]

How did he do his job??? He did not hold the score at 2-1. He was put into a tough situation but regardless the ball made its way into the outfield and 2 runs scored. If Derosa hit a soft liner to SS did coffey not do his job because it wasnt a ground ball? If the runs score in any way Coffey did not do his job. There is no place for description runs column so it really doesn't matter how they scored, its just that they did score.

and this is precisely why evaluating a pitcher based upon ERA is a bad idea...

[jojo]

Narron played the best card he had in his deck...

Coffey did what he does...

The ground ball went through the hole...

Once in play, the pitcher has no real control over whether the batted ball is a hit or an out. This is why K/9 and K/BB are important considerations for the pen especially.

Ideally Narron could have brought in a guy with a K/9=12.5 because that guy would've had the greatest chance to control his own destiny.

Narron doesn't have that. So what did he do? He brought in his best reliever to pitch through the high leverage situation.

I just don't see how you can fault either guy. It's an unreasonable expectation to suggest Coffey should've got the K. He did induce a ground ball. What more that was in his control could you have asked of Coffey?

If someone wants to harp, I think the criticism should be aimed at the decidedly vanilla *pitch to contact* nature of the bullpen. These guys could be effective or they could be ineffective-all while pitching to their skill set. There's just a little too much left to chance with this bunch IMHO.

[dougdirt]

We'd be printing World Series tickets.

You didnt order yours yet? slacker. Mine are already in the mail!

[Coffeybro]

Because sometimes you get beat on your best pitch. It's a simple fact of baseball. Sometimes you make a great pitch that ends up in the stands.

You tip your hat and go on.

The players understand this.

This is exactly the idea it seems a lot of people don't get. That game is over now. All you can do is tip your hat to the Cubs and look forward to the next game. There are alot of people saying if this and if that. To say that one person sucks because the dice just didn't fall in their favor shows very little maturity. It's kinda like saying that Tiger Woods sucks because he can't get a hole in one on every hole. The way I see it can be summed up by modifying a line from Tom Hanks. There's no whining in baseball. So why should there be on this messageboard.

[Redsland]

All you can do is tip your hat to the Cubs and look forward to the next game. There are alot of people saying if this and if that. To say that one person sucks because the dice just didn't fall in their favor shows very little maturity. It's kinda like saying that Tiger Woods sucks because he can't get a hole in one on every hole.
:clap:

[redsmetz]

This is exactly the idea it seems a lot of people don't get. That game is over now. All you can do is tip your hat to the Cubs and look forward to the next game. There are alot of people saying if this and if that. To say that one person sucks because the dice just didn't fall in their favor shows very little maturity. It's kinda like saying that Tiger Woods sucks because he can't get a hole in one on every hole. The way I see it can be summed up by modifying a line from Tom Hanks. There's no whining in baseball. So why should there be on this messageboard.

Ah, but there you'd eliminate the reason for being from a handful of posters on Redszone.

[M2]

This is exactly the idea it seems a lot of people don't get. That game is over now. All you can do is tip your hat to the Cubs and look forward to the next game. There are alot of people saying if this and if that. To say that one person sucks because the dice just didn't fall in their favor shows very little maturity. It's kinda like saying that Tiger Woods sucks because he can't get a hole in one on every hole. The way I see it can be summed up by modifying a line from Tom Hanks. There's no whining in baseball. So why should there be on this messageboard.

Just curious, has any of the griping going on in the radio booth gotten back to Todd? I'm baffled by it, but the team's announcers seem to have stirred up a pot of fecal matter in regards to him.

[Coffeybro]

Just curious, has any of the griping going on in the radio booth gotten back to Todd? I'm baffled by it, but the team's announcers seem to have stirred up a pot of fecal matter in regards to him. I haven't talked to him one way or the other about the announcers. In fact the last thing he talked to me about was computer related. :thumbup:

[Redsland]

Just curious, has any of the griping going on in the radio booth gotten back to Todd? I'm baffled by it, but the team's announcers seem to have stirred up a pot of fecal matter in regards to him.
They were giving it to Lohse pretty good today, too.

Thom: Let's be blunt. People don't question Lohse's stuff. They question his heart.
Marty: As a player, you'd rather have them question your stuff.

And come to think of it, they've also been discussing Milton lately with an awfully large amount of candor.

[mroby85]

This is exactly the idea it seems a lot of people don't get. That game is over now. All you can do is tip your hat to the Cubs and look forward to the next game. There are alot of people saying if this and if that. To say that one person sucks because the dice just didn't fall in their favor shows very little maturity. It's kinda like saying that Tiger Woods sucks because he can't get a hole in one on every hole. The way I see it can be summed up by modifying a line from Tom Hanks. There's no whining in baseball. So why should there be on this messageboard.

Please never compare todd coffey to Tiger Woods again!

[wheels]

Please never compare todd coffey to Tiger Woods again!

Once again, you're missing the point.

Even when a player does everything he needs to do, there are still other factors affecting the outcome. The two biggest being the other player, and luck.

We can also factor in Encarnacion's positioning. Were he playing in his usual spot, it's a gimme. He was shaded in, and towards the line sightly, thus making it harder for him to cut the ball off.

Everyone did their job on that play, and if you wanna split hairs, DeRosa did the bone headed thing by jumping at the first pitch he saw, but luck was on HIS side......

[M2]

Please never compare todd coffey to Tiger Woods again!

Coffey's got much better stuff on the mound.

[Dracodave]

That was just an amazing hit by Derosa. That was in no part due to Coffey. I however would have called in Saarloos..because he is the groundballer of the two.

Do I blame Coffey? Nope, but he also needs to learn in that situation like that as well.


So chalk it up as learning...and call it a night.

[Razor Shines]

That was just an amazing hit by Derosa. That was in no part due to Coffey. I however would have called in Saarloos..because he is the groundballer of the two.

Do I blame Coffey? Nope, but he also needs to learn in that situation like that as well.


So chalk it up as learning...and call it a night.

It wasn't even an amazing hit. It was a bouncing ball that was in the exact spot it had to be to get through.

[TC81190]

Please never compare todd coffey to Tiger Woods again!

That'd be his brother, chief.

[wheels]

That was just an amazing hit by Derosa. That was in no part due to Coffey. I however would have called in Saarloos..because he is the groundballer of the two.

Do I blame Coffey? Nope, but he also needs to learn in that situation like that as well.


So chalk it up as learning...and call it a night.

I honestly think that the only thing to be learned from that turn of events is that luck is an important factor in baseball.

......But these guys already know that because they see it every day.

[registerthis]

I however would have called in Saarloos..because he is the groundballer of the two.

But Coffey induced two ground balls...

[RedFanAlways1966]

It wasn't even an amazing hit. It was a bouncing ball that was in the exact spot it had to be to get through.

Good lord (nothing to you, Razor!)... this kind of stuff happens in this game called baseball? You mean this has also happened to Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver and Roger Clemens too? This stuff, a bouncer that gets through the infield, is a part of this game called baseball?!!? I was reading posts in this thread and thought stuff like this only happened to Todd Coffey. I was ready to write Bud Selig and ask him to put Todd on the permanently ineligible list for this transgression. Color me shocked. I guess I and some other posters have a lot to learn about this game called baseball.

[Razor Shines]

Good lord (nothing to you, Razor!)... this kind of stuff happens in this game called baseball? You mean this has also happened to Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver and Roger Clemens too? This stuff, a bouncer that gets through the infield, is a part of this game called baseball?!!? I was reading posts in this thread and thought stuff like this only happened to Todd Coffey. I was ready to write Bud Selig and ask him to put Todd on the permanently ineligible list for this transgression. Color me shocked. I guess I and some other posters have a lot to learn about this game called baseball.

Yeah sorry, that's kind of what I meant, I think. I was saying there was really nothing more Coffey could have done, he got the ground ball it got through, unlucky, oh well.

[Dracodave]

But Coffey induced two ground balls...

Yeah I know. I just wanted to get the debate into grounds that wasn't so blantatly out there. Such as "Coffey sucks! Lets DFA him!"

I was just stating an opinion. Thanks for heavy responses though.

-------------------------------


It wasn't even an amazing hit. It was a bouncing ball that was in the exact spot it had to be to get through.

I said amazing hit for that reason alone. It was luck, which makes it pretty amazing considering the range of Edwin and Gonzo.

Like I said thanks for the responses.

[mroby85]

Good lord (nothing to you, Razor!)... this kind of stuff happens in this game called baseball? You mean this has also happened to Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver and Roger Clemens too? This stuff, a bouncer that gets through the infield, is a part of this game called baseball?!!? I was reading posts in this thread and thought stuff like this only happened to Todd Coffey. I was ready to write Bud Selig and ask him to put Todd on the permanently ineligible list for this transgression. Color me shocked. I guess I and some other posters have a lot to learn about this game called baseball.

problem is todd coffey is not of the same caliber, and i think that's pretty obvious.

[M2]

problem is todd coffey is not of the same caliber, and i think that's pretty obvious.

It's true. When Roger Clemens gives up a grounder that finds a hole, it's qualitatively better than when Todd Coffey does it.

I remember seeing Seaver surrender a roller through the right side back in 1979 in a game agaisnt the Padres and thinking to myself "You'll never see it done better than that." It's 28 years later and that's still the case.

[mroby85]

i honestly do find it more tolerable when it comes from a guy that doesn't do it as often. it may have the same effect in that same particular moment, but when you do it over and over it becomes more frustrating. we aren't talking about one incident.

[rotnoid]

It's true. When Roger Clemens gives up a grounder that finds a hole, it's qualitatively better than when Todd Coffey does it.

I remember seeing Seaver surrender a roller through the right side back in 1979 in a game agaisnt the Padres and thinking to myself "You'll never see it done better than that." It's 28 years later and that's still the case.


To be fair, Nolan Ryan did pitch 7 no hitters. I'm sure he just didn't have high caliber stuff the other 800 games he pitched in. :D

[redsmetz]

See here's the problem. Way back in the day, Wee Willie Keeller came up with the now age old axiom "hit it where they ain't" - ever since batters have been besetting pitchers according to old Willie. Oh the tragedy!

[AtomicDumpling]

Let's assume for a moment that Todd Coffey really is a joke. Does it help anything to come on here and whine like a sissy about it?

It would be better to make a post describing the problem and then give one or more suggestions about how the situation could be improved or how it could have been handled better.

Let's give mroby85 a chance to describe what he would do if he were in charge.

Would you release Todd Coffey and bring up a minor leaguer to pitch in those situations? Would you trade him to the Nationals for Felipe Lopez? Would you have left Arroyo in to keep pitching after he allowed the two hits to start the inning after already throwing over 100 pitches? Would you have left the infield back so that grounder wouldn't have leaked through? Would you have advised Coffey to throw a different pitch in that situation? Would you have sent to the bullpen for Burton or Weathers instead of Coffey?

Insightful comments and cogent observations are much more interesting to read and debate than sour-grapes complaining is.

I am not normally a fan of Narron's handling of the pitching staff, but in this case I thought he made the correct decision to bring in Coffey in that situation (although I would not have had Arroyo start the inning in the first place). Coffey failed to get us out of the inning unscathed, but I thought the pitch was a tough pitch to hit. DeRosa was able to get the bat on it and was fortunate enough to see it find a hole. It was a good pitch from Coffey, but DeRosa was good enough to eke out a basehit.

Sometimes good pitches get hit. I remember last year Joel Zumaya threw a blazing fastball to Griffey low in the zone at 102MPH -- a fantastic pitch. But Griffey hit it over the outfield wall anyway.

[dougdirt]

i honestly do find it more tolerable when it comes from a guy that doesn't do it as often. it may have the same effect in that same particular moment, but when you do it over and over it becomes more frustrating. we aren't talking about one incident.
And yet, over the entire course of the season Todd Coffey has shown to be a good pitcher. So when July rolls around and his ERA is again under 4.00, will you still be around to say 'another good outting by Todd last night'?

[sonny]

So an Italian, a parrot and Todd Coffey walk into a bar...

[RedFanAlways1966]

i honestly do find it more tolerable when it comes from a guy that doesn't do it as often. it may have the same effect in that same particular moment, but when you do it over and over it becomes more frustrating. we aren't talking about one incident.

Not sure of the definition of over and over, but I'll try to supply some facts. In 2006 Todd Coffey...

* Came into a game with at least one runner in scoring position 15 times. The other team scored in 5 of those games.
* Came into a game with at least one runner in scoring position and less than two outs 11 times. The other team scored in 3 of those games.

Of course Todd Coffey is not used just in situations in the middle of an inning when runners are on base. He appeared in 81 games. He pitched at least 1 inning in 54 of those games. He might not be perfect (few are). But for a guy in his 2nd full season at a tad above $400K, he doesn't do too bad. Compared to some of the other arms this team has experienced in the bullpen in recent years and a game when the REDS offense only managed three lousy hits in the game... I find it hard to pick on Coffey for a bouncing ball that got through.

The first loss is always hard to take each year. I didn't like it. But I found lots of other things to get upset about... bases loaded bunt gaffe, going 3-0 on Isturitz with the bases loaded, 3 hits by the offense. Had Coffey mowed them down the REDS looked like they would have still lost. Unless you believe in that mentality crap thing. If so, someone should talk about the hitting mentality of the team in innings 1 through 5.

[Chip R]

Would you trade him to the Nationals for Felipe Lopez?


Only if Felipe had had super secret shoulder pain and the Nats didn't tell us about it. ;)

[MrCinatit]

I'd be pretty happy if we kept this sucky guy for a long, long time; and had more sucky guys just like him.

[mroby85]

And yet, over the entire course of the season Todd Coffey has shown to be a good pitcher. So when July rolls around and his ERA is again under 4.00, will you still be around to say 'another good outting by Todd last night'?


I hope he does do well, im a diehard reds fan through and through, but in reality i don't think he's a very good pitcher. however, based on the replies around here, all i would have to say if he does get out of the jam is that they hit the ball hard and he got lucky, because you're considering the hit off of him last night luck.

[redsmetz]

sheesh - 1 2 3 inning - what a joke! We're not getting our money's worth from this clown!

[mound_patrol]

i dont even know why we throw him...getting 1,2,3 innings like that
just pathetic. Good Job Coffey. Really wish we had more guys like him

[RFS62]

Wonder if the Pirates think he's funny.


:p:

[Chip R]

Wonder if the Pirates think he's funny.


:p:


He's funny how, I mean funny like he's a clown, He amuses you? He makes you laugh, he's here to freakin' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How is he funny?

[Team Clark]

Todd looked very calm and in command. He was used in the 7th where he is best suited FOR NOW. I thought he looked good and CONFIDENT. It's not easy standing on the bump. Hope he can build off of that.

[dougdirt]

Todd looked very calm and in command. He was used in the 7th where he is best suited FOR NOW. I thought he looked good and CONFIDENT. It's not easy standing on the bump. Hope he can build off of that.

Sure its easy standing there.... its that throwing pitches and getting guys out that is tough. :p:

[Team Clark]

Sure its easy standing there.... its that throwing pitches and getting guys out that is tough. :p:

You got me there!! :laugh: Even Rick Reuschel looked "good" on the bump. ;)

[Rocket_Fuel]

I hope he does do well, im a diehard reds fan through and through, but in reality i don't think he's a very good pitcher. however, based on the replies around here, all i would have to say if he does get out of the jam is that they hit the ball hard and he got lucky, because you're considering the hit off of him last night luck.


How would you know if he's a good pitcher or not, he's young and developing. If you had been in control Schilling would have been cut because his first year or so he sucked, and Aaron Harang wasn't that great either. Neither was Bronson Arroyo.

[jojo]

How would you know if he's a good pitcher or not, he's young and developing. If you had been in control Schilling would have been cut because his first year or so he sucked, and Aaron Harang wasn't that great either. Neither was Bronson Arroyo.

I'm wondering what you think Coffey will morph into....

He's a good bullpen arm (above average so he help the pen) but not a great one (not the ideal guy for high leverage situations). It's not most likely that he's going to develop into a great one. They guy will most likely have a nice career and contribute...lets not compare him to Schilling or really any quality starter.

I know the title to this thread was really over the top but did this:


I know that this is an unpopular stance around this board, but i'd just like to note that todd coffey once again gave up a big hit in this game, that basically put them out of it with the weather conditions. It just seems to me that every time coffey gets put in a clutch situation he folds under pressure. I am just so tired of this bullpen not ever being able to hold anything down, it gets ridiculous after awhile. on a lighter note, victor santos looked stellar thus far!


really deserve 50+ and counting neg points?

[mroby85]

Let's assume for a moment that Todd Coffey really is a joke. Does it help anything to come on here and whine like a sissy about it?

It would be better to make a post describing the problem and then give one or more suggestions about how the situation could be improved or how it could have been handled better.

Let's give mroby85 a chance to describe what he would do if he were in charge.

Would you release Todd Coffey and bring up a minor leaguer to pitch in those situations? Would you trade him to the Nationals for Felipe Lopez? Would you have left Arroyo in to keep pitching after he allowed the two hits to start the inning after already throwing over 100 pitches? Would you have left the infield back so that grounder wouldn't have leaked through? Would you have advised Coffey to throw a different pitch in that situation? Would you have sent to the bullpen for Burton or Weathers instead of Coffey?

Insightful comments and cogent observations are much more interesting to read and debate than sour-grapes complaining is.

I am not normally a fan of Narron's handling of the pitching staff, but in this case I thought he made the correct decision to bring in Coffey in that situation (although I would not have had Arroyo start the inning in the first place). Coffey failed to get us out of the inning unscathed, but I thought the pitch was a tough pitch to hit. DeRosa was able to get the bat on it and was fortunate enough to see it find a hole. It was a good pitch from Coffey, but DeRosa was good enough to eke out a basehit.

Sometimes good pitches get hit. I remember last year Joel Zumaya threw a blazing fastball to Griffey low in the zone at 102MPH -- a fantastic pitch. But Griffey hit it over the outfield wall anyway.

I know that you're only saying this sarcastically and will say im wrong, but if i were in charge, Coffey could stay in the bullpen, but it would be as a mop up guy, and he certainly wouldn't be coming in with the game on the line, or to keep a game within a run. I personally wouldn't have sent arroyo out for the 8th, considering it is so early in the season, but since he was already out there, i wouldve let him try to finish it up, because all he did was give up singles to derek lee, and aramis ramires, the heart of the cubs order.

also i don't believe i'm on here "whining like a sissy" im just stating opinion on this matter which is what i thought message boards were for, im pretty sure what i posted was about reds baseball, and this is redszone.

[DTCromer]

:coffey:

[M2]

I tell you, it going to take Todd days to scrape the Cubs' lineup from out of his cleats after stomping all over it today.

[NorrisHopper30]

Coffey was a joke today..

[dougdirt]

Coffey was a joke today..

Sure was. He laughed all the way to the win column.

[KronoRed]

Maybe the cubs are the better joke :D

[Caveat Emperor]

Coffey was a joke today..

"Knock Knock"
(who's there?)
"Dominating relief effort."

[Falls City Beer]

What's red, rhymes with toffee, and beat the Cubs' ass today unmercifully?

[dougdirt]

What's red, rhymes with toffee, and beat the Cubs' ass today unmercifully?

What is Red Moffee?

[justincredible]

What's red, rhymes with toffee, and beat the Cubs' ass today unmercifully?

http://www.geocities.com/rraattbbooyy/images/folgers.jpg

[Ltlabner]

Todd seems to have lots of "stuff" and tallent. When he's on, he's really on. But when he's off he's got zero confidence and/or ablity to solder on and get through it. Harrang has off nights where he struggles, but he finds a way to keep us in the game. Coffey just seems to implode on his off nights.

I understand there's a world of difference between the starter and bullpen guy, but just using Arron as an example.

I like Todd, I really do. I think he'll be a valuable asset to the team. But there is some "hump" he has yet to get over. Whether it be mental, mechanical or other, he better figure it out.

[WVRedsFan]

Sometimes, he simply doesn't have it. Last night was one of those times. It's understandable to not have confidence in which pitcher he'll be on a given night. Unfortunately, Narron exhibits too much confidence in Todd. He was left in too long after it was obvious tha last night he didn't have it. Nothing new.

Todd coffey is not a joke. He is at a crossroads in his career and he probably learned something last night. Now if he'd just learn that the sprinting from the bullpen is ridiculous and wastes a lot of energy that he could use positively when he does get to the mound. Showmanship is fine, but what you do in the game is more important.

[membengal]

Mariano Rivera gave up three runs the other day with two out and none on while nursing a two run lead. Marco Scutaro hit the miracle homerun.

Sometimes, crazy to acknowledge, you don't have your stuff and you get beat. It does happen...

[Krusty]

With Gary Majewski pitching well at Louisville, you have to wonder if Coffey continues to struggle if Coffey will be sent to Louisville? I think he has options.

[Red in Atl]

I feel the same way as this thread title. And I've felt that way ever since they gave him the chance to be the closer, and he blew the opportunity. Now this was just one game, so I won't go over the edge here. But it certainly seems, going back to last year again, that Coffey gives up more big hits than anyone else not named Milton.

I would also fault Narron as well. Does this guy have any idea how to handle pitchers? If he doesn't have it, he doesn't have it. Get him out of the game before he puts you out of the game. Narron does the same crap with Milton.

I didn't hear/see the game last night, but as soon as I saw the score jump from 4-3 to 9-3 I was convinced Narron had let Milton pitch the 6th and he blew up. I personally would never let Milton pitch the 6th unless he was throwing a hellacious game. And then I'd yank him the first batter that gets on base.

I'm with Krusty. Send Coffey down. See how he reacts. See what he does. If he doesn't regain his form he had at the beginning of 2006, then what good is he to this team?

[bucksfan2]

This Coffee situation is starting to remind me of Wagner a few years back. Hopefully he bounces back but I do think a few weeks in AAA may do him some good.

[minus5]

With Gary Majewski pitching well at Louisville, you have to wonder if Coffey continues to struggle if Coffey will be sent to Louisville? I think he has options.

I'm beginning to wonder if he doesn't have some things that he needs to work out and if Louisville might not be the answer, provided that he does have options. He certainly has the stuff but his effectivness/execution just has not been there of late. He seems to get hit pretty hard at every outing. I do think that he will get it together though.

[Ltlabner]

You know, this might be a prime example where you hope the Reds medical staff is checking out Todd very carefully, running MRI's or using whatever other medical tests available to make sure Todd doesn't have an injury, known or unknown to him. They better not just be sitting back waiting for Todd to say, "you know...my shoulder feals funny..."

I'd hate to think this tallented young kid is getting his brains beat in due to an injury the Reds medical staff didn't detect before it went from a nagging issue to a carear threatening issue.

[Kc61]

This is why you can't blame Krivsky for occasionally signing relievers with long track records, even guys who are on the older side. Young pitchers are fragile. It takes a number of years to find out if they are consistent or not.

There are some exceptions, but they are rare.

So, while we all get enamored with young prospects, You need the steadier veterans. Eventually some youngsters will pan out, some won't.

Having said that, you also need some younger arms who can pitch frequently and multiple innings. Coffey, Bray, Saarloos fit that category this year. Hopefully, one or two of them can come through to cover those middle innings.

[ITHIKABAND]

I know that you're only saying this sarcastically and will say im wrong, but if i were in charge, Coffey could stay in the bullpen, but it would be as a mop up guy, and he certainly wouldn't be coming in with the game on the line, or to keep a game within a run. I personally wouldn't have sent arroyo out for the 8th, considering it is so early in the season, but since he was already out there, i wouldve let him try to finish it up, because all he did was give up singles to derek lee, and aramis ramires, the heart of the cubs order.

also i don't believe i'm on here "whining like a sissy" im just stating opinion on this matter which is what i thought message boards were for, im pretty sure what i posted was about reds baseball, and this is redszone.

This is also why I rarely post on this message board and just read the threads more than anything else because the folks on here that have over 800 posts or whatever think they are God, Im assuming thats why there's two seperate boards as well(a higher archy), to be honest WHO CARES. Im sorry fellas but If the status of your life is measured on a Reds message board you most not have a whole lot to look forward to in this world. Like I said I dont post on here alot for the fact that If your not agreeing with the higher archy on this board your stupid points go down or you get banned or insulted. mroby85 is making a great point that I totaly agree with If you don't agree with his point fine but dont be [edited] about it. Thats my two cents, ban me from the board, take away those gay points do whatever. I give two [edited]....:mooner:

[Ltlabner]

This is also why I rarely post on this message board and just read the threads more than anything else because the folks on here that have over 800 posts or whatever think they are God, Im assuming thats why there's two seperate boards as well(a higher archy), to be honest WHO CARES. Im sorry fellas but If the status of your life is measured on a Reds message board you most not have a whole lot to look forward to in this world. Like I said I dont post on here alot for the fact that If your not agreeing with the higher archy on this board your stupid points go down or you get banned or insulted. mroby85 is making a great point that I totaly agree with If you don't agree with his point fine but dont be [edited] about it. Thats my two cents, ban me from the board, take away those gay points do whatever. I give two [edited]....:mooner:

Do you get negged because you've dissagreed with someone who's been around a while?

Or perhaps because you insult people and have masked profanity strewn through your posts?

Just a thought.

[Puffy]

Todd Coffey is a joke

No, a joke is What do you do with an elephant with three balls?

Walk him and pitch to the Rhino.

[registerthis]

If you don't agree with his point fine but dont be [edited] about it. Thats my two cents, ban me from the board, take away those gay points do whatever. I give two [edited]....:mooner:

I just spoke with the points, and they prefer the term "Alternative Sexual Orientation" points. "Gay points" just seems a bit rude.

[registerthis]

Do you get negged because you've dissagreed with someone who's been around a while?

Or perhaps because you insult people and have masked profanity strewn through your posts?

Just a thought.

I thought it was a very insightful, thought-provoking post. For instance, it took me awhile to determine exactly what "&* h%$#@" stood for. You rarely get that kind of ambiguity around here.

[BuckWoody]

No, a joke is What do you do with an elephant with three balls?

Walk him and pitch to the Rhino.
You really are serious, aren't you?

[Bobcat J]

Like I said I dont post on here alot for the fact that If your not agreeing with the higher archy on this board your stupid points go down or you get banned or insulted.

I think that you are really not grasping the dynamics of the board. It is not that you disagree, but the manner in which you disagree. By filling your posts with quotes like "I give two [edited]...." and insults based on sexual orientation, you turn a lot of people off. Clean it up, don't make blanket statements with nothing to back it up, don't call players names, and your posts will be viewed more favorably.

[fearofpopvol1]

Mariano Rivera gave up three runs the other day with two out and none on while nursing a two run lead. Marco Scutaro hit the miracle homerun.

Sometimes, crazy to acknowledge, you don't have your stuff and you get beat. It does happen...

Yeah, he's also about 10 years older than Todd and a picther that many hitters have faced over the last however many years...

[Puffy]

You really are serious, aren't you?

Yes, why? Would you pitch to the elephant?

[Team Clark]

At least the pitch to Hall was a strike.

[KronoRed]

Yes, why? Would you pitch to the elephant?

Heck yeah, he's slow! get him to hit in on the ground and it's an easy out.

[BRM]

At least the pitch to Hall was a strike.

Always lookin' on the bright side, huh TC? ;)

[paintmered]

Yeah, he's also about 10 years older than Todd and a picther that many hitters have faced over the last however many years...

He's also one of the best relievers of all-time and a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Guys have seen Roger Clemens for over 20 years. The last time I checked, he still was effective last year too.

[Ltlabner]

Yes, why? Would you pitch to the elephant?

Depends if there are any RISP. The elephant only hits useless solo homers.

[BuckWoody]

Yes, why? Would you pitch to the elephant?
I was just playing along with a scene from the movie Hot Shots. Charlie Sheen tells his girlfriend that she must be joking. She says that she is not, that if she was joking she would have said something like this...and proceeds to tell that joke. Sheen then looks at her and deadpans the line that I wrote. Funny scene. :D

I digress.

Now back to the thread!

[Puffy]

I was just playing along with a scene from the movie Hot Shots. Charlie Sheen tells his girlfriend that she must be joking. She says that she is not, that if she was joking she would have said something like this...and proceeds to tell that joke. Sheen then looks at her and deadpans the line that I wrote. Funny scene. :D

I digress.

Now back to the thread!

Yeah, thats where I got that joke from - but I didn't remember that was Sheen's response.

[fearofpopvol1]

He's also one of the best relievers of all-time and a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Guys have seen Roger Clemens for over 20 years. The last time I checked, he still was effective last year too.

Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. Mariano IS a HOF. TC is not. So, a goof is going to be a little bit more acceptable.

[Razor Shines]

With Gary Majewski pitching well at Louisville, you have to wonder if Coffey continues to struggle if Coffey will be sent to Louisville? I think he has options.

I think it's a little early for that. He had a bad night it happens. Before last nights game he'd only given up 1 ER, he's struck out 8 batters in 6.2 innings. He's one of the few guys in the bullpen that can come in a get a strike out. He sucked last night, but pitchers are going to have a piss poor performance from time to time. If last night becomes a common thing, then we'll have something to worry about.

[texasdave]

Depends if there are any RISP. The elephant only hits useless solo homers.

I think you are confusing the elephant with the big donkey. :)

[Ltlabner]

I think you are confusing the elephant with the big donkey. :)

Don't turn this political, we'll have to take it to the peanut gallery. :p:

[Team Clark]

Always lookin' on the bright side, huh TC? ;)

Reminds me of when Wild Thing walked all those hitters then gave up a Grand Slam and the pitching coach says "Well...it was a strike anyway"...

[membengal]

So, a year ago, when Coffey blew away Jim Edmonds with the bases loaded in that 1-0 game the Reds won in the 8th inning or so, that was pretty cool, huh? What? What's that? Sometimes the shoe is on the other foot? Weird game, this game of baseball...

[Redus]

Can Todd be sent down? Majewski has a 1.80 at Louisville...just sayin

[Always Red]

Can Todd be sent down? Majewski has a 1.80 at Louisville...just sayin

The heck with that; I want Maj and Coffey up here, both pitching well out of the pen. The pre-injury Maj, that is. I'd like Bray up, too.

Don't ask me who goes down, that's entirely another issue...;)

[Ltlabner]

Can Todd be sent down? Majewski has a 1.80 at Louisville...just sayin

I don't think sending Todd down would really acomplish much would it? He's got tallent so he'd likely smoke the AAA batters. If he's injured he'd get beat up down there which run the risk of making the injury worse and doesn't do much for his confidence. If it's a mechanical issue that's something we pay Dick Pole to figure out and fix.

[redram]

Todd had a Bad game, nothing to kill him over. Everyone has em. he has been pretty darn solid up until then. If he has a bunch more then maybe give him a tough time, but not right now. I do however wish he would stop that sprinting to the mound when he is called into a game. That has got to wear anyone down a little and with ML hitters sometimes a little is all it takes to knock one out of the park.

[TC81190]

If Todd is a joke, he's a dirty one, cause those ones are the best.

[Big Daddy P]

I call him "The Sheriff", after sheriff coffey from Bonanza. He's pitching like him too unfortunately!

And oh yeah, he needs a MANSIERE! Huge man hooters on the sheriff!

Yechhhhh....

[AdamDunn]

Coffey is fine... leave the poor man alone. It was ONE GAME!

[mroby85]

i must say coffey is stellar when it doesn't matter. face it, he's a choker.

[forfreelin04]

i must say coffey is stellar when it doesn't matter. face it, he's a choker.

are you the kid todd beat up in High School?

[mroby85]

yeah thats it, it has nothing to do with his 6.75 era and inability to perform in clutch situations.

[jojo]

yeah thats it, it has nothing to do with his 6.75 era and inability to perform in clutch situations.

I'm starting to think that you don't like Coffey....

[Coffeybro]

yeah thats it, it has nothing to do with his 6.75 era and inability to perform in clutch situations.

While we are talking about inability, how about your inability to post a positive comment about a team that is currently in first place?

[jojo]

While we are talking about inability, how about your inability to post a positive comment about a team that is currently in first place?

I'm starting to think that you do like Coffey....

:beerme:

[RedsManRick]

yeah thats it, it has nothing to do with his 6.75 era and inability to perform in clutch situations.

Mariano Rivera blew the 2001 World Series. He must be unable to perform in clutch situations too. Or maybe it's stupid to judge a player based on a single performance.

[mroby85]

good grief, stop comparing this guy to guys like mariano rivera. mariano rivera had been one of the most dominant pitchers in playoff history. this is not based on one performance. I must say that is one of the most idiotic comparisons ive ever seen.

you want some positive comments?
arroyo, harang, belisle, and lohse are pitching well.
hamilton looks great.

i have positive things to say, just not about a guy who is hurting their chances of remaining in first place.

[jimbo]

good grief, stop comparing this guy to guys like mariano rivera. mariano rivera had been one of the most dominant pitchers in playoff history. this is not based on one performance. I must say that is one of the most idiotic comparisons ive ever seen.

you want some positive comments?
arroyo, harang, belisle, and lohse are pitching well.
hamilton looks great.

i have positive things to say, just not about a guy who is hurting their chances of remaining in first place.

Harang has only had one good start out of three, how can you say he is pitching good? Using your criteria, he must be a joke. After Belisle's shakey start tonight, I guess he should be run out of town also. :barf:

[mroby85]

difference- HARANG HAS DONE IT BEFORE, and coffey hasn't.

coffey has consistently not pitched well in pressure situations not just this year, but last year as well. you guys will agree eventually, but for some reason you're in love with him right now.

[paintmered]

difference- HARANG HAS DONE IT BEFORE, and coffey hasn't.

coffey has consistently not pitched well in pressure situations not just this year, but last year as well. you guys will agree eventually, but for some reason you're in love with him right now.

And for some reason, you still feel like dragging this thread through the mud.

You've made your point already.

[mroby85]

i didn't get this thread going again. Todd Coffey did, it was dying away, and he choked again.

[WVRedsFan]

i didn't get this thread going again. Todd Coffey did, it was dying away, and he choked again.

Wow. Just wow.

If this keeps going, we're going to morph into cincinnati.com in no time.

[RedsFan75]

Could this thread be locked, this is going nowhere, mroby won't change his mind and neither will we, it's becoming pointless.