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runfreelrun
04-23-2007, 07:12 PM
Dunn for Tori Hunter. Both are free agents at the end of the year, and I see both earning about the same money in free agency. It clears up the lefthanded glut of outfielders and improves us in center. It also frees up Freel to play his jack of all trades role and lets Hamilton play left field every day. I would do it in a second, but cant imagine the Twins would go for this.

RedsMan3203
04-23-2007, 07:15 PM
No, No and let me think about it... No

Dunner is going to be on this team for awhile.... Why do you ask?

Well, the ownership is willing to spend money... And with the likes of Milton and KGJ (in a few years) coming off the books we'll have money to spend to lock him up.

Love him, hate it, don't want him - doesn't matter.... Adam Dunn is going to be on the Reds team for awhile.

Just to prove it - I've bought a lot of Bengals Jerseys (Palmer, CJ, Rudi, TJ and Pollock - With the likes of everyone but Pollock soon as I got the Jersey there was pretty much an annouced saying they've been signed long term) ((I bought a Dunner Jersey last year, its all in the fold))

Fil3232
04-23-2007, 07:17 PM
*If* you trade Dunn, the return better be something other than an OF. That's about the least of the Reds' seemingly long line of worries. And to answer your question, no I would never make that trade.

Patrick Bateman
04-23-2007, 07:23 PM
So we get worse, older, and we don't even trim the payroll.

Where do I sign up?

HumnHilghtFreel
04-23-2007, 07:24 PM
Not to sound mean, but that's one of the worst trade proposals I've seen posted in quite a while.

Degenerate39
04-23-2007, 07:27 PM
No

KronoRed
04-23-2007, 07:30 PM
Only if Mauer is thrown in ;)

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 07:33 PM
Dunn for Tori Hunter. Both are free agents at the end of the year, and I see both earning about the same money in free agency. It clears up the lefthanded glut of outfielders and improves us in center. It also frees up Freel to play his jack of all trades role and lets Hamilton play left field every day. I would do it in a second, but cant imagine the Twins would go for this.

If you trade Dunn then we're going to have to go out and get more left handed hitting, and we'll go round and round.

Also I'd take Hamilton over Hunter in CF at this point in their careers. And as others have said Hunter is getting old, and if you think Dunn is over paid, well.....

runfreelrun
04-23-2007, 07:35 PM
Are you kidding me, weaker? I am so tired of everyone here defending Adam Dunn. What does he do, hit meaningless homeruns, strikeout all the time, fail to hit with men on base, play below average defense, what else. Tori Hunter is a 6 time gold glove winner, with a career .270 average who consistently comes up with the big hit and defensive play when called upon. The sooner you guys realize Dunn is nothing more then a below average player who hits homeruns, the sooner we all can agree he is one of, if not the biggest problem with this team. Come to your senses, and take off the blinders.

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 07:40 PM
Are you kidding me, weaker? I am so tired of everyone here defending Adam Dunn. What does he do, hit meaningless homeruns, strikeout all the time, fail to hit with men on base, play below average defense, what else. Tori Hunter is a 6 time gold glove winner, with a career .270 average who consistently comes up with the big hit and defensive play when called upon. The sooner you guys realize Dunn is nothing more then a below average player who hits homeruns, the sooner we all can agree he is one of, if not the biggest problem with this team. Come to your senses, and take off the blinders.

Speaking of blinders. You can contend that Dunn is not good if you want, but using Hunter as someone you think is better than him is pretty stupid.

Career
Hunter: .269/.323/.465

Dunn: .246/.379/.512

If you think Dunn is not good how can you think that Tori Hunter is good?

Not to mention that Hunter will be 32 this year, chances aren't good that he's going to be getting better. It's just a guess but his best seasons may have been behind him. And gold gloves don't always go to the best fielder and Hunter is a perfect example of a guy getting because of reputation rather than performance.

And he makes more money than Dunn.

mroby85
04-23-2007, 07:42 PM
if i traded dunn, i think i would want either a huge bullpen upgrade, or some good prospects, with the idea of signing offense in the offseason.

Ron Madden
04-23-2007, 07:49 PM
Dunn for Tori Hunter. Both are free agents at the end of the year, and I see both earning about the same money in free agency. It clears up the lefthanded glut of outfielders and improves us in center. It also frees up Freel to play his jack of all trades role and lets Hamilton play left field every day. I would do it in a second, but cant imagine the Twins would go for this.

Wow, that would be a Giant step in the wrong direction.

Patrick Bateman
04-23-2007, 07:57 PM
Are you kidding me, weaker? I am so tired of everyone here defending Adam Dunn. What does he do, hit meaningless homeruns, strikeout all the time, fail to hit with men on base, play below average defense, what else. Tori Hunter is a 6 time gold glove winner, with a career .270 average who consistently comes up with the big hit and defensive play when called upon. The sooner you guys realize Dunn is nothing more then a below average player who hits homeruns, the sooner we all can agree he is one of, if not the biggest problem with this team. Come to your senses, and take off the blinders.

Look, this argument has been rehashed a million times already. Rather than get into Dunn, I'll focus on Hunter, because the search function is at your disposal and if you want a Dunn argument, go nuts.

Hunter's defense is on the decline. Like most center fielders, their defensive ability declines pretty rapidly with range. Hunter's speed has gone down very rapidly, and because of it, he lacks the range to play a top flight CF'er. He is about league average, maybe worse in CF right now.

Now obviously Dunn is not a good fielder, and Hunter would thump him in that regard, but his defense no longer does enough to close the gap between their respective offensive values. Dunn is a much better offensive player. You could make the argument that the Torii Hunter from 2 or 3 years ago would give the current Dunn a pretty good run for his money in terms of total value because of his ability to play a top flight CF, but at this point, there's no comparison.

TeamSelig
04-23-2007, 08:04 PM
WOW

what a !HORRIBLE! trade that would be for us.

StillFunkyB
04-23-2007, 08:05 PM
Only if Mauer is thrown in ;)

Yeah. I'd do that! :)

Razor Shines
04-23-2007, 08:07 PM
Only if Mauer is thrown in ;)

Well for Mauer, I'd probably even be willing to part with Milton and Ross.

jojo
04-23-2007, 08:49 PM
Dunn for Tori Hunter. Both are free agents at the end of the year, and I see both earning about the same money in free agency. It clears up the lefthanded glut of outfielders and improves us in center. It also frees up Freel to play his jack of all trades role and lets Hamilton play left field every day. I would do it in a second, but cant imagine the Twins would go for this.

Philosophically, trading a second tier leftfielder for a second tier centerfielder (who plays gold glove defense) both of whom make similar money is a nobrainer. The centerfielder is worth more.

However, Dunn isn't a free agent-the Reds have an option for him next year and it's very possible they could work out an extension (though I do agree that it's also possible that the Reds decline the option and Dunn could become a free agent but that would only happen if Dunn has a season similar to his second half of '06 IMHO). So first, the Reds would be trading 2 years of Dunn for 1 of Hunter. Second there's a legitmate reason to argue about the relative worth of each. If Dunn rebounds (and there's reason to think he will), he is a first tier leftfield bat tightroping the first tier/second tier demarcation because of his atrocious defense. Hunter on the other hand is really beginning his decline phase due to injury. Since the majority of his value is derived from his defense (and he's nolonger a gold glove calibre defender), he's a much greater risk. Third, the above argument is begs the question that Hamilton has established himself as a legimate everyday outfielder.

I love defense but this is one I wouldn't do....

Highlifeman21
04-23-2007, 10:02 PM
Dunn for Tori Hunter. Both are free agents at the end of the year, and I see both earning about the same money in free agency. It clears up the lefthanded glut of outfielders and improves us in center. It also frees up Freel to play his jack of all trades role and lets Hamilton play left field every day. I would do it in a second, but cant imagine the Twins would go for this.

I give you credit. You're thinking. You realize that we're not winning with what we've currently got.

But...

The upgrade of Hunter's D does not make up for the gap created by the downgrade of his bat vs. Dunn's bat. So, you're essentially keeping the payroll the same, getting better D at the huge sacrifice of offense, which last time I checked is something this team desperately needs.

But with this, you lost me.


Are you kidding me, weaker? I am so tired of everyone here defending Adam Dunn. What does he do, hit meaningless homeruns, strikeout all the time, fail to hit with men on base, play below average defense, what else. Tori Hunter is a 6 time gold glove winner, with a career .270 average who consistently comes up with the big hit and defensive play when called upon. The sooner you guys realize Dunn is nothing more then a below average player who hits homeruns, the sooner we all can agree he is one of, if not the biggest problem with this team. Come to your senses, and take off the blinders.

My question to you would be, for the sake of argument, if Dunn is one the biggest problems with the Reds, what are the other problems?

I'm honestly curious.

IIRC, Dunn's led our team in Offensive Win Shares at least the last 3 years, and I have a feeling he has a significant edge in total Win Shares over Torii Hunter, even when you factor in Hunter's advantage in Defensive Win Shares.

runfreelrun
04-23-2007, 10:14 PM
The other problems, where do I start. No legitimate righthanded hitting outfielder. Lack of team speed outside of Freel and I guess Phillips. NO clutch hitting from Dunn or Griffey your 3 and 4 hitters. An all field no hit shortstop. A 3rd baseman who hasnt proven himself to be a consistent major league hitter. Do I even have to mention the catcher situation. Come on this everyday lineup is one of the worst in baseball. Maybe I am wrong here with this Dunn for Hunter thing but I really think that the last few years, and dont tell me last years team was good, we finish below .500, that Dunn, Griffey and the rest of this bunch will not win consistently. We cant hit lefthanded pitching, so when we face one we roll out Dunn, Griffey, and Hamilton with maybe Freel replacing one of the three. Then we watch as Dunn strikes out 3 times, leaves men on 3rd with less then 2 outs, etc., etc., etc. I just think a shakeup is in order, and we all know we cant trade Griffey as his value is zip, so why not Dunn. I for one will be sick if we pick up that option and pay a
.240 hitter who cant hit in the clutch 10 million bucks, save it and throw it at Andrew Jones. I just am tired of losing and tired of seeing Dunn fail.

bucksfan2
04-24-2007, 09:25 AM
I would do Dunn for Hunter in a heart beat. Shore up the defense, add speed to the lineup, add another rh bat, and give the team some much needed leadership. If I did the trade I would make it contingent on working out a long term deal with hunter.

Highlifeman21
04-24-2007, 09:51 AM
The other problems, where do I start. No legitimate righthanded hitting outfielder. Lack of team speed outside of Freel and I guess Phillips. NO clutch hitting from Dunn or Griffey your 3 and 4 hitters. An all field no hit shortstop. A 3rd baseman who hasnt proven himself to be a consistent major league hitter. Do I even have to mention the catcher situation. Come on this everyday lineup is one of the worst in baseball. Maybe I am wrong here with this Dunn for Hunter thing but I really think that the last few years, and dont tell me last years team was good, we finish below .500, that Dunn, Griffey and the rest of this bunch will not win consistently. We cant hit lefthanded pitching, so when we face one we roll out Dunn, Griffey, and Hamilton with maybe Freel replacing one of the three. Then we watch as Dunn strikes out 3 times, leaves men on 3rd with less then 2 outs, etc., etc., etc. I just think a shakeup is in order, and we all know we cant trade Griffey as his value is zip, so why not Dunn. I for one will be sick if we pick up that option and pay a
.240 hitter who cant hit in the clutch 10 million bucks, save it and throw it at Andrew Jones. I just am tired of losing and tired of seeing Dunn fail.

I agree, the 2006 version of the Reds was not a good team. I also agree that the 2007 version is at best equal to, if not worse than the 2006 version. Perhaps a shakeup is in order.

But...

If we move Dunn, we need something better than Torii Hunter.

Hunter is a good defensive CF, but we have one of those: Josh Hamilton.
Hunter is offensively worse than Dunn.
Hunter's speed numbers are deceiving. 112 SB vs 52 CS in 8+ seasons, never stealing more than 23 in any season. Hunter is below 70% for his SB success rate, so he's creating outs by SB attempts. Ryan Freel is the same player, creating outs by SB attempts and pick offs. While speed is good, you need smart speed. Hunter is not smart speed.

If we don't pick up Dunn's option, then I've lost all hope and faith with this organization. Even if you want to trade Dunn, you need to pick up that option, just to have the opportunity to ship him outta town.

I'd love to have Andruw Jones as our LF or RF, as I see Josh Hamilton being better defensively in CF, but $10 Million won't get it done. If Gary Matthews, Jr and Juan Pierre can get $10 Million, then Andruw Jones will get $15+ Million.

If you want to shake things up with this team, use some of your trading chips in the minors, like a Wood, a Cueto, a Votto, a Stubbs (once he's able to be traded), and go get the pieces you feel this team needs to compete going forward for this year, or for 2008.

PuffyPig
04-24-2007, 10:06 AM
Hunter will be overpaid on the market. Look what Pierre and Matthews got, and they both stink. Look at what Vernon Wells got. He's good but not that good. CF's get more, even ones like Hunter who's skills are decreasing.

We have a CF in Freel. And one in Hamilton. We don't need to overpay for one in Hunter.

Dunn's option will be picked up, even if it's with a trade in mind. Dunn's value to this team is quite a bit more than Hunter's.

RichRed
04-24-2007, 11:27 AM
Are you kidding me, weaker? I am so tired of everyone here defending Adam Dunn. What does he do, hit meaningless homeruns, strikeout all the time, fail to hit with men on base, play below average defense, what else. Tori Hunter is a 6 time gold glove winner, with a career .270 average who consistently comes up with the big hit and defensive play when called upon. The sooner you guys realize Dunn is nothing more then a below average player who hits homeruns, the sooner we all can agree he is one of, if not the biggest problem with this team. Come to your senses, and take off the blinders.

Very funny, Marty, you really had me going there for a minute.

jojo
04-24-2007, 11:55 AM
I for one will be sick if we pick up that option and pay a .240 hitter who cant hit in the clutch 10 million bucks, save it and throw it at Andrew Jones. I just am tired of losing and tired of seeing Dunn fail.

That's a myth.... Dunn has been just fine in clutch situations. Here's (http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1248453&postcount=354) why I say that....

TOBTTReds
04-24-2007, 12:04 PM
Very funny, Marty, you really had me going there for a minute.

Haha. I'm thinking Thom.

KoryMac5
04-24-2007, 01:07 PM
I do think Dunn does get traded this year if the Reds find the right deal for him, but finding the right deal may be the catch. The Reds have many holes to fill and I don't think trading Dunn is going to fill all of them. What he may net us is two players who don't quite add up to his worth. I would think a team like the Dodgers would be willing to unload a pitcher and one of there outfielders for him. I heard that deal rumored last year.

rotnoid
04-24-2007, 01:53 PM
Not to mention this: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2847416


Hunter's gift of four bottles of Dom Perignon, which he had delivered to the Royals clubhouse this past weekend, was meant as a reward for the Royals sweeping the Detroit Tigers last September, allowing the Twins to come from behind to win the American League Central. The gift fulfilled a promise Hunter made last fall.

But baseball has rules about this sort of thing.


Namely, rule 21-b, which proclaims "Any player or person connected with a Club who shall offer or give any gift or reward to a player or person connected with another Club for services rendered ... in defeating or attempting to defeat a competing Club ... shall be declared ineligible for not less than three years."


Trade for a guy who could be facing 3 years on the ineligible list? I dont' think it comes to that, but there will most likely be some repercussions.

Edd Roush
04-24-2007, 02:27 PM
If Dunn rebounds (and there's reason to think he will), he is a first tier leftfield bat tightroping the first tier/second tier demarcation because of his atrocious defense.

Just asking an innocent question, but why does Dunn get a rep' for having "atrocious" defense? Sure, he struggled mightily Opening Day last year judging fly balls in howling winds, but Dunn isn't as unathletic as he is made out to be.

Dunn almost signed a scholarship to play quarterback or tight end at the University of Texas. He IS an athelete. He is no Kevin Mitchell, one tool player. Dunn can make average defensive plays. The diving catch over the weekend comes to mind. It was a catch that any outfielder would get props for. So what I'm trying to say is, are there statistics to prove Dunn is something less than a league average outfielder? Or is it bitter Brennaman-esque fans digging to find another reason to bash Adam Dunn?

jojo
04-24-2007, 02:37 PM
So what I'm trying to say is, are there statistics to prove Dunn is something less than a league average outfielder? Or is it bitter Brennaman-esque fans digging to find another reason to bash Adam Dunn?

Bitter? Brennaman-esque? Bashing? When can I expect your Christmas card? I'd hate to see how you frame your not-so-innocent questions.... :mooner:

:D

To answer your question, there are statistics..... check out his UZR ratings, PMR to runs, or even Dewan's fielding Bible. Forget league average. A consensus of gold-standard defensive rating systems suggests Dunn is one of the worst defensive leftfielders in the majors not named Manny.

BTW, I doubt neither Dunn worshippers nor Dunn bashers consider me on their side......

Edd Roush
04-24-2007, 02:52 PM
Bitter? Brennaman-esque? Bashing? When can I expect your Christmas card? I'd hate to see how you frame your not-so-innocent questions.... :mooner:

:D

To answer your question, there are statistics..... check out his UZR ratings, PMR to runs, or even Dewan's fielding Bible. Forget league average. A consensus of gold-standard defensive rating systems suggests Dunn is one of the worst defensive leftfielders in the majors not named Manny.

BTW, I doubt neither Dunn worshippers nor Dunn bashers consider me on their side......

Interesting. I'm sorry for coming so down on you, but this thread did leave me a little upset. Now, looking at how many runs Griffey gave up against the league average last year (something like 30 more), how does Dunn's defense compare to Griffey's? Did Dunn cost the Reds an additional 30 runs last year? BTW This is not to bash Griffey, but instead to compare statistics

jojo
04-24-2007, 02:57 PM
Interesting. I'm sorry for coming so down on you, but this thread did leave me a little upset. Now, looking at how many runs Griffey gave up against the league average last year (something like 30 more), how does Dunn's defense compare to Griffey's? Did Dunn cost the Reds an additional 30 runs last year? BTW This is not to bash Griffey, but instead to compare statistics

Defensive gurus consider Dunn to be a legitimate -20 defender...

Edd Roush
04-24-2007, 03:22 PM
Defensive gurus consider Dunn to be a legitimate -20 defender...

So could a hypothetical outfield of Jr., Dunn and Wily Mo, be considered one of the worst of all-time defensively?

jojo
04-24-2007, 03:26 PM
So could a hypothetical outfield of Jr., Dunn and Wily Mo, be considered one of the worst of all-time defensively?

It would be pretty bad. Then throw in Lopez at short...he was considered to be one of the worst defensive shortstops in the majors.

Edd Roush
04-24-2007, 07:57 PM
It would be pretty bad. Then throw in Lopez at short...he was considered to be one of the worst defensive shortstops in the majors.

I remember that, however I don't understand how Dunn can cost the Reds 20 runs a season. He does seem to lumber around a little bit and doesn't hustle to his position (;) ) but I still don't see how that costs the Reds 20 runs. As I said, he appears athletic enough. I wonder if his defense can eventually get better.

reds44
04-24-2007, 07:59 PM
I want more then 1 player for Dunn. I want a group of players.

cincrazy
04-24-2007, 08:23 PM
Count me out of any trade that involves centerfielder's aged 30 and above. We've already had our share of those this decades, with the greatest player of his generation, and even he broke down. And following Hunter the past few years, it appears it's happening to him as well.

Both player's have similarities. An all out style, on astro turf. That's courting disaster. With Jr., disaster struck. Hunter is half the overall player Jr. was, so it's bound to strike him as well.

CWRed
04-24-2007, 08:49 PM
It is so refreshing to see that the Dunn-haters don't let real statistics get in the way of blaming Mr. Dunn for all that is wrong with the Reds (and thanks also to Marty B.) The amazing things is that things like this have never happened with major league fans before. I know Bobby Abreau and A-Rod are nodding in agreement. If only they were clutch or cared!:rolleyes:

Yes, let's snatch up an aging ceterfielder with a much lower OBP and less power because the Reds do need to get a little older and scrappier. And like Dusty Baker said, and I paraphrase, "what good is OBP...a bunch of base runners clogging up the bases if you can't drive 'em in."

By the way, where is Tony Womack? That guy plays the game the right way! :bang: