Tired of hearing Narron take the blame...

[mroby85]

i just want to say, im getting sick of reading how everything is jerry narron's fault. i'll be the first one to admit that he doesn't always do exactly what i would've, but what in the world do you do with the bullpen he has? he only has the options that are out there, and there isn't one guy in that bullpen I would have faith in. When David Weathers is your best reliever, its almost impossible to pull the right strings to where the game isn't blown. All i'm trying to say is, it's hard to blame a guy that doesn't have any quality options, ill be honest, i don't know what i would do.

[Matt700wlw]

He's not going to call out players on the air....as any coach/manager won't.

I just hope behind closed doors he's doing something about it, but I have my doubts....he's just not a fire in the belly kind of manager.

[Ron Madden]

Wayne and Jerry brought this bullpen North.

Who ya gonna blame?

[mroby85]

well jerry isn't in charge of the offseason moves, as unbelievable as it may seem, maybe those are the best guys for those spots.

[CTA513]

Its easy to blame Narron just like its easy to blame Dunn and Griffey.

[jimbo]

Its easy to blame Narron just like its easy to blame Dunn and Griffey.

Well said. :thumbup:

[WVRedsFan]

After those three, who else is there? Really.

Someone's at fault for the failures. It has to be either the players or the management. Which is it? If it's the management, it's Narron's and Krivsky's fault (not a popular position in this thread). If not it must be the players and there's a lot of blame to go around, right?

Truth is, it's both.

Fire them all...:beerme:

[Ron Madden]

well jerry isn't in charge of the offseason moves, as unbelievable as it may seem, maybe those are the best guys for those spots.

Narron has input on who makes the 25 man roster.

The Reds did not bring the best 25 players North.

The guys in the pen are what they are. They can't help it.

[tomred]

Whom should have gone north Salmon then the first time he blows a game then whos next look across the MLB the Reds are not the only team with pitching problems and WK has not even had two years it will take time

[Spring~Fields]

im getting sick of reading how everything is jerry narron's fault.

Winning would cure that.

After tonight I will have to admit that I don't have a clue. We have experienced the writer's, announcer's, and Narron's explanations. Explanations aren't positive results.

The much wiser people on the board will have to explain it, I don't have a clue. :(

[mth123]

I agree that there is enough blame for everyone. WK put together a terrible pen and many of us stated so before the season. Santos has been a pleasant surprise. Getting guys like him for free who come in and do well for a year or two when nothing suggests that they will is not that uncommon, so that really isn't a huge feather in his cap.

The moves to bring in Cormier, Weathers, Stanton and Saarloos were calculated and questionable. WK gets all the blame there IMO. He should have pooled his resources (those 4 guys make about $9 Million) and got a quality guy somehow.

This is one area that the Reds at least have alternatives to try out. Salmon should be up, Bray and Burton should be back soon, and a number of minor league pitchers (starters and relievers) might be worth a shot at some point. I think Pelland could be a good reliever with some stuff. Same for Lecure. Medlock is dominating at AA and plenty of journeymen like Shearn, Gosling etc. to come up and mop up if the team comes up short on bodies. Its time to start making room and the team should start by shopping Cormier and Saarloos.

[UK Reds Fan]

It does sound childish for the same people to constantly blame Narron for every loss...but we live in a society that sues others over many unfortunate incidents. Redszone just is a reflection of the mindset of many.

Tie game in 8th, pitcher's spot due up first and Arroyo at 96 pitches for the game. To go with Freel to lead off the innings wasn't a terrible idea or some wild-hair decision. I'd say many MLB managers would have cut their losses and gone for the win right there.

If you don't go with Sarloos, then whom...the Cards where coming up with a ton of righties and only 1 lefty in the bottom of the 8th. So going with RH pitcher sounded correct. If not Sarloos, then Coffey (been used much the past week and is also struggling), Santos..possibly, Weathers...closer, etc..

The problem is the meat of our order...Griff, Dunn and EE aren't getting it done consistently. Then you throw in Phillips who is bouncing in and out of middle of lineup also isn't getting it done. Those guys simply must produce. If they don't pick it up quite a bit, we'll continue to score 1 run off the likes of Bradon Looper. Narron can only squeeze so much lemonade out of guys hitting like lemons.

It isn't like Narron is the genius ala Torre who can plug a lineup of Jeter, ARod, Giambi, Canu, Posado, Matsui, Damon, etc...every night. Sometimes a team can make a manager look brilliant when he has not a whole lot to do with it surely.

[Always Red]

If Narron leaves Arroyo in and he gives up a run, he's an idiot.

If Narron takes Arroyo out, pinch hits Freel, goes for the win, he's an idiot.

All this Narron bashing is very tiresome to me.

If you change managers, this team does not improve one single bit. Not at all.

[aaronboonefan]

"I was fine," said Arroyo, who threw 96 pitches. "[Pitching coach Dick Pole] came down pretty quick and said 'Good game.' I assumed Jerry had his mind made up and was going to go and hit for me. He didn't even ask me how I was feeling."

Yeah, but when Jerry takes Arroyo out without even talking to him, that makes him an incompetant manager.
Just from that quote you can tell that Bronson would have liked to discuss it with Narron, but Narron basically ignored him.

[Roy Tucker]

Let's have a little perspective here.

It's April 26. The Reds are 10-11. Did anyone truly expect this team to start off the season like a house afire?

Some things have gone right, some things have gone wrong, and some things have gone meh. There are 141 more games to play. Hardly time to start talking about firing people.

I'd like the team to have everything all sorted out, but I'd like there to be world peace and free beer for everyone too.

Give it time.

[Always Red]

I'd like the team to have everything all sorted out, but I'd like there to be world peace and free beer for everyone too.


Free beer is good, and makes nearly everyone happy.

"Beer is proof that God loves man, and wants us to be happy." ~ Ben Franklin

[Always Red]

"
Yeah, but when Jerry takes Arroyo out without even talking to him, that makes him an incompetant manager.
Just from that quote you can tell that Bronson would have liked to discuss it with Narron, but Narron basically ignored him.

I totally disagree. Narron is the manager, and he decided he wanted Freel up to lead off the inning, and go for the win, rather than lead off Arroyo and play for a continued tie.

A manager needs to be decisive, and not poll the room before he makes a decision.

If it had been a question of how tired Arroyo was, maybe in the middle of the 6th, for instance, then you ask him how he feels.

Arroyo had taken himself out of the last game, IIRC, because he felt tired, didn't he? Narron is playing for the long haul.

Look, I don't think Narron is a great manager by any stretch. But blaming him for everything, constantly is wrong. And it gets done here at RZ everyday.

This team has some decent players. The supporting cast is very weak, and that is showing right now. If you want to blame anyone for that, then it's WK's fault.

I'd like to see what Keppinger, Burton, Salmon, Majewski and Bray can do. I think we'll know soon enough what they can do. Krivsky has shown a willingness since he's been here to make changes when necessary.

[dfs]

what in the world do you do with the bullpen he has?
I want him to use the talent he has effectively. Not trying to use every pitcher for a batter during every game would be a good start to keeping these guys healthy and effective.

FWIW I don't blame Narron for last night's loss. I think taking Bronson out was a decent enough decision. I wouldn't want Phillips bunting in the first, but lots of major league managers want that out of their "scrappy middle infielder in the two hole." Narron does a lot right. The only thing that really bothers me about him right now is the mismanagement of the pen. That's assuming that he hasn't really given up on Edwin.


I'd like to see what Keppinger, Burton, Salmon, Majewski and Bray can do. I think we'll know soon enough what they can do. Krivsky has shown a willingness since he's been here to make changes when necessary.

Yeah, it's not like they've got Gehrig, Williams, Grove and Koufax that they are waiting for there is it? Given what happened in spring training, I don't have any quarrel with the 25 that Narron brought north. Most of the tough decisions got made via injury. I don't think subtracting Moeller and adding in Crosby would have made any kind of difference. Narron's hands were tied with respect to Cormier. Realistically bringing Medlock north means you give Burton back or send Coutlangus to AAA.

Other than bullpen management. I have to wonder if Adam Dunn is hurt and the "crack" medical staff is either in the dark or ignoring it.

[Highlifeman21]

Accountability ultimately falls on the players.

But...

Narron needs to put our guys in situations where they are most likely to succeed.

I'm not convinced he has a clue about said situations.

[bucksfan2]

One Redzoner posted on another topic how in close games a manager's decisions are magnified more. Last nights game was a tie game going into the top of the 8th. Then Narron started to spin his managerial skills. Pinch hitting for Arroyo with Freel didn't work. Saarloos, a starting pitcher pitching out of the bullpen, not to mention that he is a sinker ball pitcher who gets better with the more innings he pitches, was inserted into the game in the 8th. And then pinch hitting the swing for the fences Valentine in the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs. None of those moves worked out. Managerial moves aren't going to work every time, I just wish Narron's would work some of the time.

If I were managing I would have dont it differently. Conine hits for Arroyo. Freel sitting on the bench all game is going to be jumpy and Conine would probably have a better chance of getting a hit. I keep freel as a pinch runner if someone gets on. Saarloos does not go into the game in the 8th, I use Santos or dare I say it Coffey. Valentine is just frustrating to watch in the situation in the 9th because he is trying to hit a hr with one swing of the bat instead of driving the ball or getting a hit. The players have to make plays and execute but the manager also should put the team in the best position to win the games. I dont think Narron does that.

[Doro]

For some reason people always think there is one person to blame for anything that goes wrong.... it could be baseball, war, education, ANYTHING and people look to blame someone. And another thing you can count on is for sports talk radio and message boards to freak out a month into the season.

[Razor Shines]

One Redzoner posted on another topic how in close games a manager's decisions are magnified more. Last nights game was a tie game going into the top of the 8th. Then Narron started to spin his managerial skills. Pinch hitting for Arroyo with Freel didn't work. Saarloos, a starting pitcher pitching out of the bullpen, not to mention that he is a sinker ball pitcher who gets better with the more innings he pitches, was inserted into the game in the 8th. And then pinch hitting the swing for the fences Valentine in the bottom of the ninth with 2 outs. None of those moves worked out. Managerial moves aren't going to work every time, I just wish Narron's would work some of the time.

If I were managing I would have dont it differently. Conine hits for Arroyo. Freel sitting on the bench all game is going to be jumpy and Conine would probably have a better chance of getting a hit. I keep freel as a pinch runner if someone gets on. Saarloos does not go into the game in the 8th, I use Santos or dare I say it Coffey. Valentine is just frustrating to watch in the situation in the 9th because he is trying to hit a hr with one swing of the bat instead of driving the ball or getting a hit. The players have to make plays and execute but the manager also should put the team in the best position to win the games. I dont think Narron does that.

Freel worked the count full I don't think he was jumpy, and he's a pretty good OBP guy. Valentine has performed well in that role before, especially last year. Honestly with two outs I want a guy up there who has the chance to tie it up with one swing. There's a better chance of Javy tying it with one swing than the Reds stringing a bunch of hit together with two outs. With the bench we have Javy was the perfect guy in that situation.

And if you think that Narron's moves never work then you're not watching. He's made moves that I thought were horrible that ended up working out.

[Doro]

Exactly right......managers never get credit when something small pays off but get drilled when it doesnt.


[QUOTE And if you think that Narron's moves never work then your not watching. He's made moves that I thought were horrible that ended up working out.[/QUOTE]

[Will]

The biggest problem with the Reds may be a small market budget. Everything has to go right for a small market team to contend. Your young players have to step up and your veterans have to perform at the level for which they are being paid.
While the Reds starting situation looks pretty good, the Bull Pen is a " Do the best you can with the money you have " bunch. You hope they will out perform their talent level, but at present time they are pitching pretty much up to the caliber of players they are.
Like someone said, it's easy to manage the Yankees and other big market teams. You have a problem, you get rid of it and buy something better.
I'm not concerned with when he pulled Arroyo, I'm concerned that we can't hold a 3 to 5 run lead regardless of when the starter comes out.

[Degenerate39]

i just want to say, im getting sick of reading how everything is jerry narron's fault. i'll be the first one to admit that he doesn't always do exactly what i would've, but what in the world do you do with the bullpen he has? he only has the options that are out there, and there isn't one guy in that bullpen I would have faith in. When David Weathers is your best reliever, its almost impossible to pull the right strings to where the game isn't blown. All i'm trying to say is, it's hard to blame a guy that doesn't have any quality options, ill be honest, i don't know what i would do.

It's not Narron's fault. It's Coffey's ;)

[Dracodave]

The moves to bring in Cormier, Weathers, Stanton and Saarloos were calculated and questionable. WK gets all the blame there IMO. He should have pooled his resources (those 4 guys make about $9 Million) and got a quality guy somehow.

9 million gets you in on conversations with a few players. You tell them we are a few pieces away from being a World Series conteder, and that we've got a young core coming up within months, and bingo. You got yourself said player.

Who wouldn't want to play on a team with Dunn, Griffey, Bailey, Harrang and Arroyo? Add in a big head-line closer to that mix with the new third starter..and I think you've got something going.

Problem is, as bad as this team is marketed towards it's fan, it's marketed worse to said signee's.

[HUHUH]

I think Marty has summed this up best when he says that all of Narron's talk about "playing the right way" and "doing the little things" is lip service. He is "right on". Jerry doesn't want to have any part of that.

When a guy can't bunt, or move a runner over, or hit the cutoff man, send him back to the minors where he's supposed to learn how to do such stuff.

Jesus! If a major leaguer can't handle the basics, something is wrong. And that has been the case with the Reds for the last few years. What the hell are they doing in the minors for 1-5 years to get ready for the bigs? Learning how to spend meal money?

[mroby85]

It's not Narron's fault. It's Coffey's ;)

finally someone is seeing things my way, lol ;)

[Ron Madden]

It's not Narron's fault. It's Coffey's ;)


Coffey only threw about three double play balls today.

[flyer85]

Jerry doesn't have much to work with. Joe Torre wasn't a genius until he got to the Yankees.

[mroby85]

Jerry doesn't have much to work with. Joe Torre wasn't a genius until he got to the Yankees.


Exactly, and thats the thing, i would feel different about it if he had the pieces in these positions to succeed, but i really feel like he's in a lose lose situation, i usually have an opinion at what i would do during certain points of the game, and when it gets to the bullpen, i just think, i have no clue.

[flyer85]

BTW, Jerry is not a good game tactician but he isn't the reason they are losing. The losing is due to a serious talent deficit on the major league roster.

[edabbs44]

BTW, Jerry is not a good game tactician but he isn't the reason they are losing. The losing is due to a serious talent deficit on the major league roster.

And there you have it. So far in '07, Wayne gets a BIG :thumbdown for what he has thrown together.

[flyer85]

And there you have it. So far in '07, Wayne gets a BIG :thumbdown for what he has thrown together.WK inherited a bad situation. His problem was he traded his chips for a bag of majik beans. WK's only chance for a quick turnaround was to hit a HR when he dealt some of his perceived "excess". He decidedly did not do that. Now the Reds can't really do mch else other than hope they hit on some low risk gambles and that guys in the farm system develop quickly.

[mroby85]

i think WK has done a great job so far, this team is better than it was when he started here, imagine this team without phillips, hamilton, or arroyo. i also like the addition of gonzalez, you can't overexaggerate the importance of a strong defense up the middle. this team is headed in the right direction, it just needs some time.

[flyer85]

The problem is the shelf life of pitching is very short as well as the half life of cheap position players