Best Lead Off hitter

[Will]

Who's the best lead off hitter, Freel or Hamilton ?
I believe Hamilton is atm and the stats show it. Freel needs to get more selective and take some walks if he's going to stay in the 1 hole. Freel has 9 walks in 84 Ab. and Hamilton has 11 in 68 AB.

Avg. OBP. SLG.
Freel, Ryan P. CF CIN 0.2619 0.3404 0.3214
Hamilton, Josh CF CIN 0.2647 0.3750 0.5882

[justincredible]

I think that Hamilton is a better leadoff guy but I would rather him hitting 3rd or 4th to get more RBI opportunities.

[Doro]

Total production wise I would say Hamilton even though hes not the traditional leadoff type. I'm a big believe that stolen bases at the major league level are overrated unless you get to the number of 60-70 or so. Anything less in a 162 game schedule and your not making enough of an impact. Freel isnt capable of that. Hamilton can match and exceede everything Freel does except for speed and even then Hamilton is no slow guy. He can match the batting average and OBP of Freel easily and definatley has 10x the power potential.

[mth123]

Hamilton is better at everything than Freel.

[TeamSelig]

I like Freel batting first, as long as Hamilton is 2nd or so

[TOBTTReds]

I would like whoever our leadoff hitter is, to take more pitches than they are now. That goes for both Freel and Ham.

[Razor Shines]

I would like whoever our leadoff hitter is, to take more pitches than they are now. That goes for both Freel and Ham.

I don't mind Hamilton swinging at the first pitch so much because he has the ability to hit the ball out of the ballpark, if it's a pitch he knows he can drive. So in a lot of situations it's worth the risk.

About the best you're going to get out of Freel is a single, maybe a double, I'd rather he work the pitcher a little more.

I don't mind seeing Griff, Dunn, Hamilton etc. swinging at the first pitch if it's a fastball that is in a spot where they know they can drive it. If it's not I'd rather they were patient and waited for that pitch.

[durl]

There are good leadoff hitters and hitters you want batting leadoff.

Hamilton is a good leadoff hitter but Freel is who you want batting leadoff. Freel's speed makes him valuable in that spot. Hamilton's better power makes him better suited further down the lineup.

Just my opinion, of course.

[reds1869]

Hamilton is a better leadoff man than Freel, but he's a better 2-5 hitter than Freel too. Hamilton is more valuable batting 2-4 than leadoff.

[bucksfan2]

I don't mind Hamilton swinging at the first pitch so much because he has the ability to hit the ball out of the ballpark, if it's a pitch he knows he can drive. So in a lot of situations it's worth the risk.

About the best you're going to get out of Freel is a single, maybe a double, I'd rather he work the pitcher a little more.

I don't mind seeing Griff, Dunn, Hamilton etc. swinging at the first pitch if it's a fastball that is in a spot where they know they can drive it. If it's not I'd rather they were patient and waited for that pitch.

Someone reported that Hamilton thought he was swinging at too many pitches. Remember this guy is adjusting on the fly to baseball is general. I do think that he is a better leadoff hitter but would rather see him a little lower in the order to be a run producer.

[Eric_Davis]

Freel. Hamilton's value is best used further down in the lineup. When Hamilton steals 37 bases and gets caught only 11 times and has a slugging percentage under .450, then this is a topic worth discussing.

[Razor Shines]

Freel. Hamilton's value is best used further down in the lineup. When Hamilton steals 37 bases and gets caught only 11 times and has a slugging percentage under .450, then this is a topic worth discussing.

Ryan Freel's base running hurts the team way more than it helps. He was picked of 10 time last year. So that's 21 outs he made after getting on base. His Net SB last year was -5, he actually cost us 5 bases last year. So far this year he's stolen 5 bases and been caught 4 times and picked off once. His Net SB this year is -7. I'd rather he not try to steal.

[bucksfan2]

Ryan Freel's base running hurts the team way more than it helps. He was picked of 10 time last year. So that's 21 outs he made after getting on base. His Net SB last year was -5, he actually cost us 5 bases last year. So far this year he's stolen 5 bases and been caught 4 times and picked off once. His Net SB this year is -7. I'd rather he not try to steal.

How do you figure net SB? I would think if he has 5 sb, 4 cs and 1 pickoff his net would be 0.

[RedWilly]

Ryan Freel's base running hurts the team way more than it helps. He was picked of 10 time last year. So that's 21 outs he made after getting on base. His Net SB last year was -5, he actually cost us 5 bases last year. So far this year he's stolen 5 bases and been caught 4 times and picked off once. His Net SB this year is -7. I'd rather he not try to steal.


can someone explain how that net is figured out please?

[OesterPoster]

Someone reported that Hamilton thought he was swinging at too many pitches. Remember this guy is adjusting on the fly to baseball is general. I do think that he is a better leadoff hitter but would rather see him a little lower in the order to be a run producer.

It was in Hal's notes this morning.


"Against right-handers I expect to see the ball well, so I've been too aggressive and swinging at balls out of the zone."

And from Narron in regards to Josh's spot in the lineup...


"...it is amazing, an amazing story. I've put a lot of pressure on him batting him third and fourth, and I've batted him first and I know he doesn't like that."

[RedEye]

There are good leadoff hitters and hitters you want batting leadoff.

Hamilton is a good leadoff hitter but Freel is who you want batting leadoff. Freel's speed makes him valuable in that spot. Hamilton's better power makes him better suited further down the lineup.

Just my opinion, of course.

I agree. With Hamilton, it's a matter of choosing which talents you want to highlight. Since he does have better power than most players, that's what you want to take advantage of. I suppose the only exception would be if he were on a team like the Yankees or Red Sox, which already have so many middle-of-the-order type guys. The Reds just don't have that luxury right now. It's not a case of Hamilton being bad at lead-off... it's just a case of him being better at #3 or #4.

[Razor Shines]

Net SB is: SB - 2*(CS+PO).

Here is the explanation of the stat from the creator:


You see, CS is a double-edged sword. A runner who is cut down trying to steal not only produces an out, but he also removes himself from the base paths. As a result, we need to penalize him for the out as well as the lost baserunner.
When stealing bases, a player needs to be successful somewhere between 70-75% of the time. If not, he is doing more harm than good by attempting to steal bases. Sure, there are some other factors at play here, mainly the game context (i.e., the score, the number of outs, who's pitching, who's catching, and who's at bat). But, generally speaking, a baserunner needs to be called safe nearly three times as often as out when attempting to take those extra 90 feet.

[bucksfan2]

I think that it is ironic that Felipe Lopez became one of the better base stealers during his time with the reds and Phillips has become a very very good base stealer with the reds but it looks like Freel just doesn't learn.

[PuffyPig]

Ryan Freel's base running hurts the team way more than it helps. He was picked of 10 time last year. So that's 21 outs he made after getting on base. His Net SB last year was -5, he actually cost us 5 bases last year. So far this year he's stolen 5 bases and been caught 4 times and picked off once. His Net SB this year is -7. I'd rather he not try to steal.

Some of his pickoffs are also included in his outs stealing. Not fair to double count.

[Razor Shines]

Some of his pickoffs are also included in his outs stealing. Not fair to double count.

I didn't know that they were. I got my numbers from this list:

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52768&highlight=ryan+freel+picked+off+10+times
That says he made 21 outs on the bases last year.